Open up a VW id3 id4 lithium battery module.
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- čas přidán 2. 03. 2023
- The balance current that i would like to have is 200mA to each cell.
But from what i have heard there will be a fuse inside of this modules, one to every cell, and those fuses will by rated under 200mA, also from what I have reading on internet…
That will make it impossible to use this battery module together with a BMS that use 200 mA to balance the cells. I have tryed to find some real facts aboute this fuse with no luck, so i hade to make a real test of it in this earlier video: • Testing the VW id3 bat...
But now it’s finally time to take a real look inside of this module.
And yes, the module is completely discharged.
Cell specs:
Capacity: 78 Ah
Voltage: 3,65 V
Length: above 500 mm
Weight: 1.073 g
Gravimetric energy density: 265 Wh/kg
Chemistry: NCM 712 E78 LG Chem - Věda a technologie
Here you can see me build a 48 V off grid system out of a module like this:
Building a off grid system with a victron multiplus
czcams.com/video/KDkWjR-gD1U/video.html
And here you can se when I install a complete battery to my house from an Volkswagen ID3, 2021 together with my 15kW Solax hybrid inverter:
czcams.com/video/ldox2_BXVzk/video.html
These videos will be very popular in about 5 - 8 years when a lot more ID cars will be taken out of service and people will want to use the battery modules for solar energy storage.
Yes you’re probably right.
Takie filmy są poszukiwane już teraz bo ogniwa lgx e78 są wykorzystywane do fotowoltaiki jako magazyny energii :)
It is already happening.
czcams.com/video/8aNjnFhlUlI/video.html
@@flyingtools czcams.com/video/8aNjnFhlUlI/video.html
Thank you for your time and energy on this video, I engineered 44 years in big auto world wide now retired but working on and with batteries now, you answered all my questions on VW batteries with this tear down.
Thank you so much sir, I’m so glad that you appreciated it😃
Great video, it helped me a lot. If you want to salvage good cells, I recommend, that you grind both bottom corners of the case. Then you simply lift the upper case and you have access to the cells. But you must be very careful, you only have about 2mm of padding between case and pouches. Main problem is how to separate the cells without damaging the pouches. I used two plastic spatulas to slightly pry the batteries. When you have a tiny gap, spray some polyurethane cleaner in the gap and continue with the spatula. I used kitchen spatulas, but I additionally sharpened their front end on grinder. When you pry the cell apart, add some more cleaner (solvent), wait a bit and then also the bottom cement will let go. Then gently separate the battery on top and keep increasing the gap. When the cell is perpendicular to the rest of the pack, gently lift it up on one side. There is some trial and error involved, so don't expect 100% yield. It is very important, that you separate the cell down to the bottom of the crack with spatula. Otherwise the solvent won't come in contact with cement and won't let go. Be careful, as you are doing this at your own risk. Get out somewhere in the open. Good luck.
Hey, can you give an estimation on how long it will take to extract the Pouch Cells from one Module? For my purpose Cells dont need to be salvaged damageless
@@vctrnxav5908 First you should know, that the cell with minuscule puncture isn't useful any more, it can only be recycled. Taking the cover off is quite simple, small angle grinder for end caps and handheld milling machine for longitudinal cuts. Real fun starts with separation of cells. It took me maybe eight to ten hours to separate four packs. It is a messy job and cells get damaged easily. Good luck.
Good video. Really shows that there still is a long way to go when it comes to sustainability. This battery pack was not designed with re-use or refurbishment in mind. It becomes hard to recycle trash simply because of a dent.
I was thinking that - what a waste of resource because of a slight damage. If an industry is to be built on repairing these things they must be forced to make entry and servicing much easier
yes and no. at least you can change one of those modules and do not need to replace the whole battery pack like in a tesla. i think in one of the IDs, you have up to 14 modules. if the car is end of life, these modules could be great for a home battery system.
but you are right, it would be cool if this would be designed for repair.
Thanks, yes, it’s sad that it isn’t possible to remove the cells. But I also think that it is very hard to build it this compact and still have it serviceable without adding both weight and space.
Just the opposite. Easy to replace whole module with a working one, no point going to a cell level fix in a pack.
I think this design will make those pack safer in accident.
Paylaşım ve emeğin için teşekkürler, cellerin ayrılmaya çalıştığında gösterdiği direnç güçlü basbar yapısı, terminal, yanmış sigortalar, zarar gören ısı pedi, hasarlı konnektör iç kısmı gibi detayları açık ve doğrudan kayıt altına aldığın için kutlarım
Thank you so much 😊
These videos deserve a lot more views
so not for get to subscribe and like these videos.!!!!
What a great contribution by Volkswagen to serviceability where an angle grinder has to be used to gain access to the battery cells.
Yes, isn’t it great😅 but I don’t think that Volkswagen is alone to do it like this.
@@flyingtools You’re right. It’s pretty much across the board in a huge array of manufactured goods. You would like to think that in our ‘green’ future that an EU company might show a lead in this area.
@@timemachine1944 exactly.
Better than Tesla where the whole battery is sealed. At least here you can change individual modules.
Haha highend opening tools! Great video. Nice to see it open.
😂 Thank you. Glad you liked it😊
High precision cutting tool, I love it. Nice heavy duty spudger tool. You could have soaked in water to get the cells apart, of course dont stand to close or do inside lol.
Haha, glad that you like that😃 Yes, I have learned that, thank you for the tip. I might open up another one to try this out. Thank you so much for your comment, love it😊👍🏻
Thanks for doing the hard work for us and videoing it! Seems like the cooling of the cells cannot be very good they cool the modules only from the bottom side and only one side of the cell is touching the bottom side of the module. Opel ampera and volvo phev had cooling channels between the cells.
Hi, and thank you so much.😃
The cells are much higher in Opel amperage so those cells must have cooling between the cells. It’s also common that Phev cars have the same typ of cooling between the cells due to the high c-rate. The cells in the meb platform is not that high and in that way that they are configured in the module makes the contact surface more then enough for normal use.
Yes, you did it! Good video. Congratulations on the first experience of opening battery modules)) Unfortunately, we in Ukraine have had to look for alternative power sources for the home, including with such modules, since the rUssian fEderation began launching missiles at our energy facilities. Now almost everything is fine.
Thank you so much.
It was a new experience for me and a little scary.
Better ask the Western woke nations to stop laundering taxpayer funds to Zelensky the Terrible .... then you can get your beloved batteries in Ukraine.
play stupid games, win stupid prizes... Z🇷🇺💪
@@albinvega7008 You have to pay for everything in this life. The hour of reckoning is near! You will pay for everything one way or another!
@@albinvega7008Power to Russia💪.
From europe
Muy interesante ver cómo está formada está batería de lithio, saludos desde México
Hi!
Thanks, glad you liked it☺️
I'm surprised there is no active thermal management between the cells. It seems not even in the entire module.
They are water cooled when they are placed in the main battery compartment.
You are only seeing the module it self and you don’t want to have a water inside of that one 😉
Interesting indeed, and I will see you next time👍
☺️
For recycling purpose you could weight the scrap materials? like the copper and brass.
Yes, that’s pretty much what the do when I leave it for destruction. It takes so time but some money can probably come back if I do that my self.
Thank you. These type of cells are more difficult to reuse in another application than those from Tesla.
And thank you for watching 😊.
I use them as they are, 9pc in serie, in its water cooled box, 450v to my solax hybrid inverter 15kW. You can also use one module as it is together with victron multiplus and then you have a perfect off grid system with a 12 S configuration and 6.85 kWh. I think that that’s actually easier than a Tesla module.
Great video! Awesome channel! I immediately subscribed and of course I did hit the thumbz up!
Hi and thank you so much😃😃👍🏻
❤vielen Dank für die Informationen ❤
Your welcome😊
Fuses should be 0,75A. Vw Bms uses only 0,1A - to balance a 235Ah pack! These welding shut and gluing the cells is also horror for me... I would recommend prismatic Lifepo4 packs
IMO biggest issue of those module design is that all cells are directly connected to the bus. If one cell is broken, a module is broken. IMO each cell should be connected to the bus via MOS switch driven by processor that check cells conditions. If a cell is bad it would be deactivated by processor, but module would be still functional (just less capacity and max power)
CORRECT..... but also TERRIBLY WRONG!
In this case, something called "human factor" plays a huge role because lithium batteries can be very dangerous and human can be very stupid.
Sure, being able to drive away after a problem (even if at reduced range, power and speed) can be a nice thing, but a cell can go bad for many different reasons and some of them pose very high risk of fire.
To further worsen the things, there are quite a lot of people that could prefer to keep the car de-rated instead of spending big money for a new battery (specially if the car is old and/or second/third hand), of course this further increase the fire hazard to an unwanted level (not only the car can self ignite on the road but also can self ignite near buildings, even during the night!).
This is the reason why an electric car with battery issues MUST STOP WORKING until checked and fixed by a technician: the convenience simply not worth the risk involved.....
@@teslacoilerI'm sorry but I think you didn't understand me. CURRENT solutions of battery modules, in which the parameters of each cell are not monitored separately, are just WRONG and DANGEROUS for health and life because they pose a fire risk and should be FORBIDDEN by law! What is the cause of damage to battery modules and why usually ONE cell fails? The matter is simple: in the module you have X cells with a capacity of Y each, but in fact each cell in the module has a slightly different capacity and internal resistance (not much, but still), and ALWAYS one cell is the weakest one. During charge/discharge cycles, the weakest cell wears out faster (because this cell is deeply discharged) and with each cycle this process is FASTER - in current solutions, NOTHING PROTECTS this cell from excessive wear, which in turn leads to its destruction, and thus the entire module. This is a big problem, because such a cell can even cause a fire. The cell does not die because it was defective, just because it had a slightly lower capacity. In the solution I wrote about, EVERY cell is monitored from the first cycle (voltage, current, capacity, internal resistance) by the charge/discharge supervision system sewn into the battery module and can assess the parameters of each cell and DISCONNECT the weaker cell from too deep discharge, and thus protect it from destruction. Such a solution can extend the life of the cell and does NOT carry any risk! What's more, if the cell has a real defect, this system can disconnect such a cell from the fast charging and discharging process (i.e. ENSURE SAFETY - the greatest danger is charging a damaged cell with high current because it can cause a fire) and leave such a cell at a charge level of about 20%, protecting against swelling, which is a safe storage state.
I like the idea, but it will be both expensive, ad weight and also space. I have never seen this done by any other car manufacturer.
@@grzegorzmontar8432 You are WRONG.
First of all, the parameters for each cell is already tightly monitored using a Battery Management System (or BMS) device (which is sometimes embedded into the battery and in some other is external..... in this case the BMS is external and is connected to the battery trough the big connector in the center): the BMS tightly monitor the state of each cell and try to correct any small difference to keep all of them in a equal state of charge (the correction is doing by pulling some current from the cells with higher voltages and by forcing the charger and the powertrain to slow down the charging and discharging process to avoid excessive mismatch, this means that a car with worn down batteries will refuse a fast charging and will decrease the performances to preserve the battery).
But if a single cell become substantially weaker than the others, the BMS will detect an unrecoverable error and instruct the car to permantently STOP working in order to avoid any hazard.
A damaged cell cannot be considered safe even if it is disconnected and must be removed and disposed properly.
(sure, this is safer than the same battery keep connected and charged, but not completely safe and requires a replacement sooner!)
This method can helps to avoid a total car failure and keeps the vehicle running for the time required to get a replacement, but this definitely is not worth the extra cost and the extra weight required (the required hardware is neither cheap nor light, i.e. is definitely cheaper to rent a car instead of using your partially working car for one or two months!)
Please note that the BMS is not related to electric cars but is present in all devices that contains rechargeable lithium batteries (cellphones, tablets, computers, cordless drills, e-cigarettes, electric bikes, electric scooters.... even wireless earbuds and rechargeable flashlights contains a BMS to protect the battery!!!) and is always work in the same way (it tries to balance the cells if something become weaker, it slow down the charging and command a power save mode if a cell become even weaker and it permanently disable the device if the battery is no longer safe....
BTW.... lithium fire is not a joke...
is way hotter than wood, plastic, gasoline and other flammable materials, it spread out very quickly and is nearly impossible to put out.
An electric car fire is hot enough to permanently compromise the structural integrity of a concrete building and even a sprinkler system can't help too much (maybe it can slow down the spreading of the fire and keep the temperatures low enough to save the concrete building, but not much else if there are some other electric cars around!).
A cell in a perfect shape and perfect working condition is almost safe.... but not if there is another damaged cell nearby!!!
Hey great work. I drive a VW ID3 so i was curious about the battery.
Regarding the fuses: Why are there 15 fuses for a 12s2p battery? I would assume 13 fuses for all balancer connections. Are the temp sensor connections protected by the 2 additional fuses?
Have you checked the breaking current of the fuses? In another video you mentioned 150mA. Where did you find this value. Sorry for being curious. 😄
Hi! There is one extra module negative and positive, probably to check the module voltage during balancing.
The temp sensor is not fused.
Yes, they got burnt black at 1A and failed at 1,5A. The voltage drop was almost 1,5v befor it failed.
I read that in a forum about simps bms, and that’s why it’s not going to be possible to use a Orion bms to those modules they said. Which is completely wrong.
G fuses are rated at 750mA
So cool.how to fix the cell and busbar? Laser spot welding?
Hi, thanks. The complete module will be replaced if there is any cell inside of it that has been bad. Thanks for your question.
you should use antiseptic with propylenglycole alcohol, or izopropane alcohol, it solvents the glue, and affects the bottom cement
I’m not sure if I want that solvent on the plastic bags. In the long term it can be bad.
@@flyingtools not the solvent, technical alcohol, i think it is normaly okay. It evaporates in 5-10 minutes
nice work, thanks a lot !
Thank you, you’re welcome ☺️
Hello Thomas, did you test those fuses already if they could handle more that 0,3 amps.
Hi. Yes but they got the warm after that and at 1 A they got completely black and they failed at 1.5 A so I don’t recommend to use a BMS that balance the cells with more than max 0.3 A
Great video, as expected these modules are made to withstand impact or a collision. They have to be (certified). Great salvage of cells btw. if only the fuse was burned in one section I would have left the alu casing intact and just bypassed those ribbons. A module that big and heavy is a great entry-level battery for solar energy storage. 24 cells = 12 x 2 in series. You could easily put those in series again leaving you 6 x 4 cells. 4S6P. Ofcourse you need a good and expensive bms. But it is all possible. These cells have probably a capacity of 100Ah each. It would add up to 12.6v - 600Ah = 7500 Wh (7.5 KWh). Not bad.
Hi, and thank you. That is what I already have done, 500v 10 modules and a three phase hybrid inverter at 15 kW. But this module was already destroyed, 1 cell was completely empty so I decided to hack this module for you guys😉
You will find more info on my channel .
Thanks for your input 👍🏻😊
Or you could build cargo ebike on this. That thing would have like 300km range.
High precision cutting tool 😂😅😅 geat
Can you do a cell test? They are very popular but no one knows if they are dangerous. I am curious what will happen with overcharging or short circuiting.
Yes, I have plans for that. But those cells are completely discharged so I have to open up a module that I almost discharged, and that is definitely not safe. But as I said, I have plans 😉
@@flyingtools I have two of these modules, locked them in an ammo box for safety. The question is whether such security measures are justified. I'm waitnig for your test. :)
@@flyingtools
If those cells are completely discharged, is it possible to revive or resurect them ? by charging them one by one ?
a lot of 18650 cells a lot can be made a live again. ( could be a nice next video with these LG Chems ),
also mr Jehu Garcia has a nice video about these LG chems and he was quite impressed.
@@johanv4668 Discharged Lithium cells do a self destruct: hhe chemistry causes a dissolving of the electrode material below 2V cell voltage. No way to recover - just dangerous to try...
Very interesting thanks,.. so I take it that there are multiples of these modules within a vehicle. ? ..depending on its spec.
Hi and thank you.
Yes you are correct 👍🏻
And they are sitting in a box and the bottom of that box is taken car of the thermal handling, (water cooled)
Thank you so much for your comment 😃
@@flyingtools .... Thank you again,.. for your video clip and info'..
Cool Video. THX. What kind of battery is it? LiFePo or just LiPo?
😊 Thanks, lion. NCM 712 chemistry.
Interesting. I didn't know exactly what was inside the batteries.
Glad to hear that.
Thanks for watching 😊
hi
nice videos
i live in Sweden too
i would like to know if it´s possible to buy easily an old car battery to make a power wall ?
Hi, the junkyard normally just sell to companies. And they don’t use to ship the batteries. You have to pick it up yourself.
Great work and thanks for sharing so much with the community!
I recently purchased a VW ID3 battery and I'm planning the BMS now - I've seen in your previous video that you went to 300mA on the balancing fuses but I'm curious to know if you ever went to the limit with this module that you opened up.
I'll gladly share my project with you if it's of any interest - we're not that many in Sweden that play around with this stuff :)
Hi!
They are rated to 450mA
@@flyingtools Tack för svar! Uppskattas :) Finns det något sätt att bolla lite tankar och idéer med dig utanför CZcams? Som jag skrev, finns inte många av oss som bygger egna fordon med dessa pack (eller andra för den delen) i Sverige ;)
Sad to see the cells glued. Makes removing single cells hard as hell.
Yes, i was very disappointed.
Tested today. It is really hard, almost impossible without damaging the outer pouch.
maybe with the right solvent (acid?) it could be washed away?
Why bother disassembling it? Just find the damaged cell and take it off the bus.
Do you have any special source for all batteries you are buying? I'm currently looking at bildelsbasen and there are some there, but of course always looking for other sources. Already built a system for Checkwatt with BMW X5 hybrid battery with Sungrow hybrid inverter and a 48V DIY Lifepo4 bank with 28kWh of storage on a SolarEdge hybrid inverter, but looking for a VAG 62 or 82kWh to replace the 48V system. As you might understand I also live in Sweden.
No, I bought them all from bildelsbasen.
Hello, I am converting a Honda S2000 into an EV. My plan is to mount this MEB-Modules upright in a box to the front of the car where the combustion-engine was. How is your impression about the stability of the assembly (cells, glue, weldings, aluminium-box) in an upright-position in a car?
Hi!
Nice project👍🏻
Sorry for my late reply.
They are very stable so I think you can have them in any position you like.
I expected round battery cells like Tesla uses. So the opening up was a surprise !
Were the pouch cells themselves still reading 0v after removal? Tried charging one up yet?
Yes 0-2 volt. Not tried to charge them.
They are not safe to charge after they have been drained like that.
Thanks for your comment .
How are those battery blocks cooled or heated? I havent seen anything in that block of metal.
It’s done by liquid in the main battery box.
That module weighs 1kg? In your description.
Model flight batteries are heavier for unit volume than that.
The parallel connection is used in laptop batteries. After they refuse to accept charge, I have dismantled and been able to separate cells and recharge at initial low current successfully. It seems like a solution to deliberately age limit. Why bother with BMS if the cells are all coupled with no balance access to the pairs?
It is the cell specifications, not the complete module.
Hey, can you give an estimation on how long it will take to extract the Pouch Cells from one Module? For my purpose Cells can be salvaged damaged
Hi!
Around 3-4 hours or less, especially if you don’t need to be careful with them.
Remember to completely drain the module before you start to work with it.
Hello, do you which temp sensors/ thermistors are used ? I am looking to reuse thoose from the battery pack but I haven't any information about thoose
Hi!
It was no info/stamp on the thermistor. So I don’t know.
Those G fuses are rated at 750mA if I remember correctly.
Ok, it might be correct because they got really warm at 800mA and the solder melted around them at 1A.
Is this the module by LG Poland for the 55 or 62 kWh batteries?
I still have to see the insides of the one made in USA.
Yes thats correct.
To add on this: The 62kWh battery has a 108s2p configuration in 9 modules, with 24 cells each, where 2 cells are in parallel and 12 in series, as you can nicely see in the video. The 82kWh battery has 12 modules, where in one module there are also 24 cells, but 3 in parallel and 8 in series. That is then a 96s3p configuration.
@@ufux4u They also have the prismatic CATL cells (50 % more capacity, stacked behind each other) that come as 16 cells per module and only 2 each parallel.
That is why those modules with a black lid cannot go into the smaller batteries (too low voltage then).
Thanks!
You are so welcome😊
Curioso sapere cosa guido e cosa uso per FV in casa👍
One might want to mention that it is insanely dangerous is a lithium cell of these dimensions shorts out 🔥
Yes, if they are charged. This modul is completely discharged, and you will also find that info in the description.
Thanks for your comment and concern.
Great vídeo 🏆🏆🏆🇧🇷
Thanks 🤩
Funny thermal interface at the edge of module! )
I’m not really sure what you mean but the thermal handling is done via the bottom of the main battery box, (not seen here in the video) that has water circulating inside of it. The heat is then transferred via cooling paste between the modules and the battery box floor.
@@flyingtools I mean this thermal design seems extremely ineffective. I think thermal resistance between battery pouches and coolant is huge.
@@pshevelev I working with those batteries every day and I have never heard about any problems with overheating so it probably works just fine, at least for normal use. But everything can be done better, but there is also a trade off, costs and weight.
@@flyingtools Of course costs and weight vs longevity and performance.
What is the process here for refurbishing and recycling these batteries? It seems rather difficult to accomplish...
Hi. Here’s a link to a video where they work with that. I think that that industry will grow allot the next following years.
Thanks for your question.☺️
czcams.com/video/s2xrarUWVRQ/video.htmlsi=xpJNM_LR6IIZINkh
Die geklebten Zell-Packs mit Koch bzw. Plastik Spachtel und ganz wichtig 👆 Gleitmittel Öl was auch immer zur Hand ist... verwenden dann geht's ohne die Beutel Folie zu dehnen 😉 da der Kleber nicht mehr am Spachtel anhaftet und einfach durch gleitet.
are they blade batterys? from byd?
Hi.
No this is NCM 712 from LG chem.
Thanks for your question☺️
SMD 'G' fuse is rated at 750mA.
Thank you so much for that info😃👍🏻👌🏻
I like your subtle humour: 'my high precision cutting tool' - a Bosch 5" angle grinder lol
Glad you liked it😃
How many in series the electrical diagram is there? 12S??
Hi! Yes 12s2p.
@@flyingtools Hmm... according to the voltage on main terminals and the balance wires in that grey socket mine (two of them) seem to be 8S3P. The sticker says 234Ah which makes 78Ah * 3. Module number is 0Z1 915 599 H. Yours is 156Ah as seen on 5:50... this is 2P indeed
@@indrekmorell6615 yes, the are made in two versions 12s2p and 8s3p it depends on which battery pack they comes from.
is possible to add more battery cell to ID3?
Hi! No it’s not.
Could you tell us the exact cell name?
Yes, you will find more info in the description, NCM 712 E78 LG Chem
Sikring på begge sider eller bare 1?
Bägge sidor.
Presumably, this guy is an ex-German Army bomb disposal officer? Brilliant piece of deconstruction work but I winced all the way through it!
Haha, the module was completely drained, 48 hours constant load 0v on the terminals. Still it’s always a risk, but it will not explode. Thanks for your comment.
Oh yes
Put the damaged compromised ones on charge to see what happens.
Yes i was thinking the same. that would be real intresting and some thing for a next video.
No active cooling??? Or a water cooler.
What if you drive fast in hot summer?
Of course, they are cooled. It’s just not shown here in this video, I only show a stand-alone module. The thermal handling is done via the bottom of the main battery box, (not seen here in the video) that has water circulating inside of it. The heat is then transferred via cooling paste between the modules and the battery box floor. Never had heard about overheating problems with those batteries and this system.
no, electronic inside that watches the single cell voltages?
No, the electronics are separated, and the balancing is done by slave units.
How Much Kw is one of them package Zell ?
Hi!
0,285kWH.
@@flyingtools not much more then in old SDI Samsung 60Ah 3,7V prismatic one... wondering why they went that way...
You cannot harvest them so easily, and reuse, maybe that's the reason.
👍
Are those pouch cells? Unexpected....
Yes, that’s correct.
When you watch those Indian repair videos and they walk barefoot on battery acid, not using any protection and doing everything on the ground and then you come here and see a guy in space suit, protected from explosions, fire or fumes. I don't know if it's funny or sad.
I think it’s sad.
maybe a chemical solvent can break up the paste like acetone.
Thanks for the advice!
Off camera tried water an soap, and it seems to do the job, it was the last thing I thought when I did try different types of solvents 😅
;'high precision cuttign tool" its a frickin grinder XD
So each cell is 1kw right ?
One module is on 6,85kwh.
6:02 This is a battery made in Poland? I see on the sticker "Podpis"
Yes it is.
Initially I thought it is a serviceable battery pack where you can change an individual cell but now I know it isn't. 🙁
I wish it was so.
This design is not a durable nor sustainable. I would expact a more evironmental friendly design from VW.
@@wimvander1427 and which company does make battery packs (diy) serviceable?
Ok, ID has battery packs with no active cooling system, so possibly short lifespan of NCM cells
They are cooled. It’s just not shown here in this video, I only show a stand-alone module. The thermal handling is done via the bottom of the main battery box, (not seen here in the video) that has water circulating inside of it. The heat is then transferred via cooling paste between the modules and the battery box floor.
The leaf pack seems better designed
In some ways, absolutely.
I have never seen that hardly serviceable battery 😢 I guess VW tries to make sure nobody replaces faulty cell in battery but buys whole module = more money to company.
At least they don't use easy to explode round cells.
I think that almost every car manufacturer build their batteries like this, so it’s only Vw to blame. Sadly It’s the whole industry.
@@flyingtools Nissan Leaf has nice replacable battery cells but no idea if they ruined it on Ariya.
I have the same cells in my RC plane 🤣
Almost😅 but the BMS or balancer as you probably call it, have much higher quality, and also the c-rate is much lower than in your aeroplane, which make this battery much more safe to use.
Thanks for your comment 😊
What is a MEB battery 🤔
Vw platform.
What I find intersting is the lack of thermal management vs a Tesla module
Hi. Here is a video about the thermal handling.
Vw id3 id4 battery thermal management.
czcams.com/video/XpXuZYsyRcw/video.html
at least the battery is totally passive, no 'intelligence' inside the battery, it should be easy to hook it up to a load, and a BMS
Yes it is👍🏻 I’m running a 108s bms to those modules and it is a great home battery. 62kWh 9 modules.
I didn't think a battery module could be not cooled like this one, poor cells....
Hi, and thank you for your comment.
They are but in a different way then Tesla.
Vw id3 id4 battery thermal management.
czcams.com/video/XpXuZYsyRcw/video.html
where is the cooling ?
The cooling is in the bottom of the battery aluminium case. The case is not shown in this video.
Where is the cooling system ?
In the main battery casing, you are only looking at a small part of the whole battery here, so that’s why you don’t see it. I might do a video about that later on. Thank you for your question😊
Would expect active cooling between the cells. Not awesome in that respect..
The thermal handling is done via the bottom of the main battery box, (not seen here in the video) that has water circulating inside of it. The heat is then transferred via cooling paste between the modules and the battery box floor. Never had heard about overheating problems with those batteries and this system.
Active cooling in between the cell would add significant complexity and cost into manufacturing of cells. The way EV battery works is modular design and then cooling is provided via a giant cold plate which the battery sit on. So the entire cold plate can be liquid cooled.
This is pretty much how ALL EV batteries are constructed.
1:00 Please use a stainless steel pipe for the wood heater! Ventilation pipes stay 4 to 5 years and it's dangerous using later!
This was only a temporary installation due to the high energy prices, and also the extreme cold weather we had. I was more concerned about the zinc plating around the pipes, so I burned off as much as possible before I start to use it.
I don't think that's gonna work anymore 🤔 Or are you gonna fold it back up and use it? Every kWh is good, right? 😂
No, you right about that 😅
The whole project should have been done outside, from the start. The explosive power there is dangerous
The module is completely discharged. 0V
They are putting those modules in a shredder with that voltage, so I am pretty sure that I was safe all the way. But thanks for your concern and for your comment.😊
@@flyingtools Completely discharged - then there is no point in salvaging cells anymore.
@@inse001 that was not my point here, see the description, and then you might understand😊
Just noticed some comments suggesting this…
I wonder what the battery container looks like if one of the sub modules is damaged like this already.
@@inse001 I maybe will do a video about that. I still have the container. Then I also can show the active thermal handling of the battery pack.
Thanks for your comments btw.
Doesnt seem really cooled as much.
I have not seen any problems with that.
@@flyingtools Yeah, that is more applicable to car itself.
BMS is not balancing the current but the voltage
And to balance the voltage between the cells the bms drain the cells with current. If that current is to high, those tiny balance fuses will burn. I use those modules for solar storage with a Orion bms, that’s why I am interested about the current and fuses on the balance side. You will find this information in the description.
vart köper du dom bateriena
I Norge.
How on earth are they ever supposed to recover these cells for the lithium etc if it takes so long to remove the casing? and how is it supposed to be done without damaging a single cell and causing a fire? Its just not economical to do so, and I bet most of these will just go straight in to land fill...
At least you can change a module in a pack. In future there won't be modules in most batteries.
Do you really think that there is a block of lithium in the battery cells that you can simply remove if you just take enough care removing the cell? XD, They go in a shreder and then similar processes like the initial sourcing from rocks is used to extract the elements! With a slight difference, that you have a really really high grade ore.
@@TschingisTube Obviously there's no holy grail block of lithium you can just remove lol. If they were fed through a shredder, would the action of the shredder not instantly in itself cause a cell short, thus causing a chain reaction and the lithium to react and burn, making the whole recovery process pointless. Even in reduced 'chip' format, the energy is still chemically stored and fragments if remained stacked could very easily combust. Chopping an 18650/21700 in half does not make it safe, it will cause a short and start thermal runaway even with a small charge remaining in the cell.
Hi. Those modules are harmless to put in a shredder BUT they have to be completely discharge before of course, just like I did with the module here in this video. Thank you so much for your comment.
with this battery a repair is probably impossible 😅
Yes, sadly you are right, even with proper tools a repair is not possible.
Please understand that this is not the battery, but just one out of twelve modules. Repair is done by exchange of the defective module - obviously the one we see is coming from a battery repair.
Repair is part of the UN SDG's. And repair is 'green'. To me it does not look like this module has been designed with repair in mind...
Hi!
There is up to 12 modules in Vw id3 so this is a smaller part of the hole battery pack. I do not know about any other manufacturers that will have replaceable cells now days. The reason of course more cost effective and extremely compact, but it is also much safer to work with. Thanks for your comment 😊
Hi, nice Video!
Yes for sure there is a cooling/heating off the battery. Why shouldt the cells glued to the groundplate wit some thermo cement?
There are some nice Videos where you can see the thermal management:
czcams.com/video/XpXuZYsyRcw/video.html
czcams.com/video/twgNqutgFt4/video.html
Hi. Thanks ☺️
I didn't know that volkswagen wanted to make things so cheap for themselves that the battery doesn't even have air cooling... i will not buying German car for that reason never
maybe they don't need inside. the aluminium case probably does a sufficient job.
The modules or a water cooled when they are sitting in the main battery compartment.
Now we all know that these batteries WILL fail ove time, there is simply NO way around it. So I am absolutely stunned about a design that is COMPLETELY useless for repair and a complete nightmare to recycle. I wonder what VW's excuse is.
Almost every car manufacturer builds their battery packs like this. So you can not blame just Volkswagen for this, it’s the whole industry. And those tiny fuses inside of the module are extremely important for safety reason. But yes, they could absolutely be replaceable.
This shit is almost not possible to recicle...
There is companies that take care of this recycling, and I think that it will be many more in the future and the technique will also be better.
what kind of recycling are you talking about? if we talking material recycling, than this is much better than tesla battery pack design. if you're talking about cell diy cell "recycling", than no company will tolerate it and no regulation will allow to use it officially for power bank at home etc.
I was told that what you did is very dangerous. I mean cutting the metal a bit to far now and then...
Don't try this at home!
Yes, you are right about that, BUT this module is completely discharged so the most dangerous thing here is the angle grinder it self. 😉
Thank you for your concern😊
That's it ???? No indvidal cell voltages ? Nothing ?? +sigh+
Of course there is. You can see me remove the balance leads together with the burnt balance fuse after I removed the end covers.
Thats nothing special - all Hyundai/Kia EV Batterys also have the same kind of fuses between the CELL and the Balance connecter - this is very important because if you have a damaged Balance Cable wich make a Short to Ground or a other Terminal then you have a buring Cable within the BSU pack
That’s my hole point here. I had a lot of comments on another video I posted earlier when I said that there is fuses inside of those modules but many people did not believed me. Its absolutely necessary to have them for safety reason of course.
@@flyingtools i Agree - im a little bit surprised how massive VW Build ther Cell Packs within the BSU Unit - some weeks ago i dismouted a Hyundai Kona BSU Pack and disassembled a Cell pack and there is a Plastic Cover on the Top a Heatsink on the Bottom a Plastic Cover on the Side and two massive Alluminium brackets on each end of each cell Pack wich helps to compress the Cells within the cell Pack ... -