Shock & Skirmisher Infantry Tactics - Bannerlord Battlefield Tactics Guide
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- čas přidán 27. 05. 2024
- Welcome to episode 3 in the Bannerlord Battlefield Tactics Guide! In this video, we will be looking at shock infantry and foot skirmisher infantry tactics. There are 4 bonuses in this one so buckle up!
0:00 - Intro
0:13 - Shock Infantry: Line Formation Testing
1:18 - Shock Infantry: Shield Wall Formation Testing
2:14 - Shock Infantry: Loose Formation Testing
2:43 - Shock Infantry: Circle Formation Testing
3:28 - Shock Infantry: Square Formation Testing
4:01 - Shock Infantry: Skein Formation Testing
4:47 - Shock Infantry: Column Formation Testing (not a meme)
5:21 - Bonus 1: Shock Infantry Vs. Shield Infantry
6:44 - Skirmisher Infantry: Woodsmen Javelin Testing
8:45 - Skirmisher Infantry: Heavy Axemen Javelin Testing
11:50 - Bonus 2: Heavy Axemen Vs Legionary
14:18 - Bonus 3: Heavy Axemen Vs Fian Champion
15:19 - Bonus 4: Heavy Axemen Vs Keshig/Khan's Guard
All Skills Guides: • Bannerlord Skills Guides
All Perks Guides: • Bannerlord Perks Guide
World Conquest Speed Run: • World Conquest - Banne...
This video was tested in patch 1.7.1.
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This was a tough one, but it was a lot of fun! We will be testing archers and crossbowmen next, which is when the real fun begins :D
If you have not had a chance to watch the first two episodes, you can find the full playlist here: czcams.com/play/PLtLh7oY6l6_-imuXlvZSFiZErbNrG06Ol.html
Ya so good
Thanks for the testing dude! It's unfortunate that the fallback command doesn't seem that effective. I gave up on trying to use Wildings in my throwing weapon playthrough and started using vanguard Farris. They are actually amazing when you tell them to hold fire and get behind enemy lines.
@@kalo8524 Yeah I think the fall back command is more of at "well it's better than losing everything instantly" button lol It's actually pretty good if the enemy is pushing up in shield wall since they are a lot slower, but anything else and they just get overran.
I'm really excited to test the Faris when we get to skirmisher cavalry!
Awesome. Please cover defenses of archers/crossbowmen too. If you're using mods like realistic AI, cavalry are SAVAGELY good at flanking these guys and slaughtering them at the very start of a battle. I've tried stickin' em in the middle of spearmen in square formation like it's waterloo and even that doesn't save them.
Good point, I'm going to be using that mod extensively once I finish this series so it will be good info for that.
This series also known as "ONE WEIRD FORMATION YOU WON'T BELIEVE - ENEMY LORDS HATE HIM"
And that formation is Skein.
Haha that would be a great idea for a thumbnail! I'll try to get it to work on the next one :) It's just tough because it's hard to read text on thumbnails :(
Skein is the biggest surprise so far for me, I rarely use it.
I think we should now call that formation the skene gland. If you get it you get it........
@@BracownReclidobo Haha I'm doing my best to keep this kid friendly, so no further comment :P I'm sure some kid is going to google that now and lock himself in his room for an hour lol
@@Strat-Guides 😹😹
I always use skein formation for my cavalry lol.
You continue to be the best Bannerlord channel on CZcams. Thank you for all the rigorous testing and high quality videos.
No problem and I hope there was some useful info in this one! I know I learned a ton about the skirmishers. I've been using them all wrong up until this point and now I feel more confident using them :) Thanks for watching!!
Legit underrated
Seriously, I second this. Love all the analytics and strategy/tactics testing.
@@orisella0310 Thank you! :D
@@colestein1775 Thank you for all the support!
"Advance is good for farming Medicine"
But at the Anaconda I lost it xD
Still, wasn't surprised when legionaries stomped menavliaton no matter what, because it's pretty much a meme at this point of development. And comes directly from combination of shields, reach of menavliaton's spears and how much easier it is to stab/slash with a sword at a dude with no shield and two-handed weapon that is just too slow to use.
Haha the Anaconda! I was trying to find a version of sir mixalot's "baby got back" but they were all copyright and I prefer to not lose my channel :)
Very true, I'm curious to see how the other shock troops perform though. I've seen other videos from the past that don't seem to be accurate anymore so it would be nice to have that updated. I've already started collecting data for the unit vs unit videos, but those will take a long time. Hopefully soon though!
@@Strat-Guides it would be really curious to see how shield-crushing weapon Shock inf perform vs legionaries. So far it seems Shock inf is really good vs melee cav, but nothing else - but that's just menavliaton.
@@Loromir17 yeah that seems to be the case, only good against cav :(
The issue with shock troops and pikes is that they get too close, and there is nothing stopping the enemy to just walk into them after blocking the first attack
Yeah, that's why the only shock troops I use are battanian and sturgians because they typically use two handed axes and swords, less useful than calvary but supper effective against sheild users because they break em in like 4 hits
But shock troops are devastating if you use them strategically and don't have the whole army consisting of them
A note on skirmishers @11:29:
I watched skirmisher volleys of javelins mid-game and noticed a MASSIVE difference against enemies standing vs. moving.
The reason your 1st wave of close range javs was so much more deadly is that your enemy was static. All other waves are against enemies moving to reform their lines.
That's a good point, I wonder if flanking an enemy that is engaged would help some as they tend to clump up a lot? As opposed to hitting them while they are maneuvering
if your gonna try the anaconda tactic, make sure the enemy has no range units xD i just tried it and by the time that i managed to get encirclement on 1/4 of my main force was gone xD
very fun vid tho, i had a good laugh at the imperial shock. The issue with polearm/two handers is that sometimes the units will cancel/chamber block each others hits instead of hitting the enemy when in tight formation. I do miss the old splitting formation mechanic (where i assign any unit a specific formation number from the party screen). The crossbow/archer unit formation video is gonna fun to watch, love to see the giant wall of green after ordering the fire at will, pure joy !!
Lol yeah it's probably best saved as a meme then :D
I was a bit surprised with the shock troop's performance! They may be better suited against other unit types like cavalry, which we will see shortly once we get to that part :) Yeah me too, I'm all about the ranged units!
@@Strat-Guides i tried the same test with the sturgian line breaker and the mamelouk palace guard against each other and against the menavliton, imma just say aserai are op xD
@@lucho9911 There is something terrifying about a massive axe coming your way, even if the actual damage numbers are the same as the polearm lol
Would you consider adding a time to die? Certain formations may have lower KDR, but if they buy significantly larger amounts of time than other formations then they can be used as holding patterns facilitating other units to reinforce from other parts of the field. Knowing if you need cavalry immediately or can chill out and wait 2 minutes for some stabby bois advancing on foot makes a lot of difference.
Yeah for sure, I didn't measure the time, but I did notice square and circle tend to last the longest. I'll try to get some actual data for it though. Great point, almost like a gambit move from chess :D
It's only a gambit if you're unsure of the outcome. Given the "variability" of the AI sometimes, I think gambit really is a fair description for a lot of tactics in bannerlord: you never quite know when Monchug will put down his tasty cup of bleach, change his name to Monty, and proceed to take over the entire desert.
As a data point: being able to extend the lifespan of a formation taking the aggro means they live longer, drop morale slower, and keep the enemy relatively locked in position longer due to the formation lasting longer.
Translate this to a fodder formation or similar and you get more distraction for a greater duration, buying more time for better flanking setups. Offensively or defensively, time is a nifty resource :)
@@mrhappyface4181 "It's only a gambit if you're unsure of the outcome." To which I reply with "TaleWorlds Math" haha JK :) That's a good point though. Lol is that why the Khuzait are so strong? Their goats produce bleach instead of milk?!
Yeah, I'm really hoping to find a good "tanky" unit that can stand ground long enough to flank with some ranged cavalry. I think infantry will still be okay, but you can't beat the mobility of cavalry. Time = casualties so I would imagine using cav would make any of these tactics even more viable.
@@Strat-Guides Of course, its how they keep the goats white :P
Legionaries + Crossbow Sergeants are relatively plentiful empire troops with good armour, shields, and engagement flexibility. Basically armoured multirole fodder you can throw around without wasting warhorses or noble units. Giving hands makes it nice and easy.
@@mrhappyface4181 Lol it all makes sense now! :)
I'm working on ranged troops next so I'm really excited to test out bow vs crossbow. I've always been partial towards bow, but lately I learn more towards crossbow. Now we will have data to back up either way!
I have to say I am loving this series, the replication of tests, the systematic nature of the testing, really high quality work. Definitely providing a good foundation for going forward and hopefully commanding my troops better. I would like to ask, have you considered at all making anything along the lines of this without the mirror matchup? I understand that for this it helps to provide some stability to the testing but for example, the test of shock troops vs legionaries was very interesting to me. Obviously this would quickly become huge if you tried to cover every possible combo but even just a general idea would be super helpful. I.e. try to send your shielded infantry into their shock troops or, melee cavalry (generally) beats shielded troops. Again, not sure how you'd turn something so huge into a manageable project but certainly something I'd love to see if you did find a way. Thank you as always for the great vid!
Just want to pop in to say, I made this comment about half way through the vid and see that the second half was a lot of what I was talking about in my original comment so, yeah, great great vid, love to see more of everything, looking forward to the next one!
Thank you, I'm glad it's helpful! I'm actually collecting data at the same time while doing these for unit vs unit testing, which I'll be releasing videos on in the near future. I figured the mirror matchup was best to start with when trying to discern which formations and commands worked best, but we will definitely get into unit counters soon!
@@Strat-Guides Can you test how does mixed group of units behave? For example unit of 50/50 manvalions and legionaries will be closer to which one? Or it would work better then eighther? or worse?
Yeah I'll be sure to run some testing like that! I know in the bonus section of this video, I tried to do 50/50 menavlion and legionary vs 100% legionary and the legionary won easily. There are a lot more combinations to test though!
@@Strat-Guides i feel like the error in that case was that iirc the menavlions were in front of the legionaries which to me doesnt make that much sense since they dont have a shield and have a much longer weapon. i Reckon they would be able to attack through the gaps in their own formation from behind if you were to put the shield bois in front. Which would leave you with the advantage of the devastating damage that they can dish out while not exposing them.
I'm impressed by your interaction with your community. I scrolled way down and you interacted with pretty much every comment no matter how far I scrolled.
Thank you for noticing! Yeah I try to get them all. I've noticed sometimes CZcams won't give me a notification for some and no email to find them, so I would have to go through manually and scroll through thousands of comments to find the ones not responded to :( I do that once in a while if I have spare time but it's rare right now lol
So much work is put into each vid, we appreciate your content!
It's a labor of love :D
Personally, against Cavalary Archers I just use one extremely wide Shield Wall or Loose Formation then Charge once the Cav Archers inevitably turn right into the middle of the formation, because the Cav Archer Charge seems to have an incredibly small turn radius meaning they will run into your formation after the first pass if you're wide enough. Also given their more powerful weapons Shock Infantry do far better with dealing with Cavalry than Heavy Infantry, but of course Heavy Infantry survive longer, so a combined formation do wonders.
Yeah it seems the AI can't handle dealing with multiple spread out groups or single long formations. Or rough terrain for that matter lol
Hey Strat! Thanks as always for all the detail in all your videos. You're excellent my dude
Hey Trumpeter, Thank you for always supporting me and the channel :D I really appreciate it. I'm happy to make the guides as long as people are getting value from them!
As always, thank you for all the work you put in to learn us good.
Lol learn you reeeel gud :D Thank you for watching!
How do you only have 17.4k subs man? You're underrated. I hope you know that people like me who loves this game appreciate you.
Thank you! It's because I'm still new :) I started the channel a little over 6 months ago and the algorithm takes time, but I'm not going anywhere so I'll keep pumping videos out and working my way up!
Excellent information and it seems that a few patterns are emerging. Without Micromanagement: Charge is better than nothing, Loose for Ranged, Tight/Shieldwall for Melee, and Shields beat everyone. I was surprised that Skein was effective for the Shock troops, but I would always use that offensively rather than sitting and waiting to defend from that formation. Awesome, awesome, awesome work as usual!
Yeah I think your assessment is spot on :) I rarely use skein formation, so this was a good wakeup call for me, hopefully I remember to start using it more often lol
Thank you for watching and the support!!
@@Strat-Guides i think it is worth considering that theres tons of commander skills that increase shield damage for your troops which would make shock troops and skirmishers significantly more effective if they do actually manage to break the shields before running out of ammo. Dont know to what degree it actually is effective but it sounds good on paper but shield infantry without a shield is just a dude with a tiny sword
@@mikeesteves8427 Very true! I think there is a perk that increases troop ammunition as well, which would make a huge difference. Lol I like the last line, basically they would be the hidden hand without throwing knives :D
Thank you for these videos. I've been looking for a channel that does extensive tests like this for a while now
Nice, good timing! Thank you for watching :) I'm working on foot archers right now, then melee cav and finally ranged cav. Once we have those all done, we will start on the mixed unit combat and unit vs unit comparison videos. Let me know if there is something specifically you want tested and I'll do my best to work it in!
@@Strat-Guides Absolutely I think that's a great way to do it. Maybe even have viewers submit their preferred mixed unit armies to include in the video for more audience engagement idk. The only other thing I'd really like to see is how AI sargeants work. Is it based on tactics skill? Are there any situations that the AI does particularly good or bad in?
Yeah that's a great question, and I don't have an answer yet :) I'll add it to the list and run some tests to find out! As for which scenarios the AI does good/bad at, it seems to me it's just bad at everything lol
Great video, best channel for Bannerlord content . After seeing the results of your test I think I will use javelins at the end of the battle when enemy is retreating. Looking forward for Cavalry test.
Thank you for the compliment!! I appreciate the support :D
Yeah those javelins are so nasty when at the right distance. Archers are up next, but I'll be doing a TON of testing the video after that for cavalry.
Wow so quick for the new video, bravo monsieur !
Thanks, those tactical guides are as useful than the perks ones, maybe even more because you're testing things that are not explain nor written.
I looked at your Joan of Arc playthrough and heard your... "french" accent D': it was really fun ^^
Now I'm binging the whole Friedrich "The Monster" emperor speedrun and that's even better, learn a lot of things while laughing here and there.
Thanks again and may your foes catch the disentry
Thank you for watching!! Haha yeah that was fun doing the Joan of Arc videos. I have a lot of work to do on my French accent :P oui oui!
That's a great idea... Maybe TaleWorlds can add some disease warfare lol send the enemy some prisoners who have dysentery and infect their troops!
I was expecting there to be a more significant difference in performance between Shield Infantry and Shock Troops. Skein charge just seems to be the way to go for infantry with loose advance for range behind them. The flanking formations are really cool though. Gonna have to try that one out. Great vid as always my dude.
I know they nerfed Menavliaton a few patches ago, they used to be absolute beasts! For sure, I need to use Skein formation a lot more. I almost never used it before and mostly for cavalry. Thank you for watching!!
Great video. Looking forward to the rest of this series.
Thank you! I'm working on the next episode of the WC series today, but once I finish that I'll be working on ranged troop testing. I'm really interested to see how well bows match up against crossbows.
Dude I just finished the first infantry tactics video and this just popped up! This is some S Tier Content!
Lol the algorithm was hungry so I had to pick up the pace :) Thank you for watching!
Javs are honestly op in both warband and bannerlord, one stray jav will knock you out of commission whereas multiple stray arrows are needed to get rekted so im glad jav/skirmisher units are getting a guide thanks Strat :)
Very true, I can't count how many times I've been taken out by a random javelin to the head (or the pesky menavliaton for that matter lol). I really learned a lot making this because I always wanted to use javelin troops, but failed miserably implementing them lol
Thank you for the continued support, it's much appreciated :D
these videos are very useful, i usually avoid any unshielded infantry since most of my tactics involve showering the enemy with arrows while my infantry holds back the enemy in shield formation
Thank you for watching! I usually end up doing the same - ranged units are the best way to minimize casualties and keep the steamroll going :D
I remember using the imerpial Menav. in the old release where I'd put them in their own group on the party menu, but were never that good. However, I currently am in another Empire playthrough where I use a 2:1 legionary to menav setup, with about 120 legionaries and 0-60 menav. They will automatically stand behind the legionaries and slowly flank and break through the enemy while they are preoccupied with the much more defensible legionaries. Despite having 1/3rd the number of shock troops in my total infantry setup, they often have a noticeably higher difference in kills and only slightly more deaths on occasion. They will often have about 3-4 kills per man whereas the legionaries usually only make about 1 kill per unit.
This is awesome! I never knew how much strategy you can implement in battles.
There is a lot more to come! I'm hoping the mixed unit tactics is a lot more practical :) Thank you for watching!
Interestingly the advance command is doing nearly always a bad job in these tests. But i had really good experience with advancing units when the enemy falls back and reinforcements are dripping in. Using charge or holding the ground results often in loosing a lot of troops in that scenario.
Yeah I forgot to test advance in these setups :( I'm going to run some tests today so at least we have the data and I'll try to include it's use when we get to the mixed unit testing!
I expect advance to fare a lot better when we get to the foot archer video
Yeah agreed. After testing the skirmishers effective range, I suspect we will see something similar for archers and advance puts them at about halfway between max range and melee combat (probably the effective distance).
I think they mostly do well against shields when you also have the perks that do extra damage to shields and horses, only then they are somewhat useful, or vs low tier trash like looters etc who don't use shields. When you do a shitton of damage vs shields and you slug it out with other troops, you will have the advantage their shield will break way faster and lose that protection.
I know they used to be a lot more effective a few patches ago, but they changed the stats on their polearm for some reason. Maybe they are better against cavalry now? I'm doing unit vs unit testing soon so we will find out :D
@@Strat-Guides might be so, how about using them in archer formations as a sort of backup for close range? if they do well against horses that would make them pretty good at stopping those circle charging cavalry.
@@pr0faker Yeah I used to use them that way in the past :) I would sprinkle a few in the archer formations and they would get decent kills actually, but sadly we can't do that anymore since they changed it.
Ok so i learned many things here..... but one of them being.....Legionaries are actually better than heavy axemen in like every way?? What a video man. What a series!!
Legionary so OP lol everything I throw at them crumbles. I'm going to be doing unit vs unit testing soon, so we will see who can beat them :)
Thank you for the support brother!
Hey great job on these! helping a lot thank you.
I'm glad they are helpful!!
In my opinion skirmishers are best to protect archers. They don't do enough on their own, but they help beef up an archer line with shields and devastate horses at close range. Flanking with archers while your infantry slow retreats in a shield wall is devastating to any army that lacks lots of heavy cav. Adding skirmishers makes it safer to do.
That's a great idea actually, skirmishers seem to be really effective against horse archers, which eat foot archers for breakfast so this plugs that gap.
Strat we appreciate your unceasing dedication to the Bannerlord community. Another fantastic video
I'm happy to keep making videos as long as people are getting good use out of them :) I appreciate your support!
"The gods gave you two hands and you use them both for your weapon. I can respect that."
- random Skyrim guard
Lol that's a good one, very appropriate :D
I love these videos they are so well made
Thank you!!
Bro... science...i always enjoy your vids man 🤝
Lol always science will prevail :D Thank you for the support!
The thing I found about skirmishing infantry (javalin throwers) is that you have to treat them like archers in a way. Put in loose formation on a hill to get the best out of them. It allows them to unleash hell onto your enemy, given if you have a large amount of them, and break down their moral then charge.
Yeah I think you're right. I tried to figure out a good way to use them for a long time, but mostly failed lol. I think I have a much better idea now though. Especially loose formation, that was a big eye opener!
Another very informative video that gives me a real buzz with the use of control groups and repeated testing. Kudos, Strat Gaming!
I have to say though, I'm kinda bummed out that javelins do so little against shields.
Even more bummed out that Fian Champs shred in both ranged and melee.
In a mixed match-up, the javelins meant for the Champs' faces would definitely have gotten stuck in some schmuck's shield.
I guess it's time to pay a visit to the Forest Bandits.
Nice, That's what I like to hear! It's so tempting to F1 + F3 and go off on a horse to fight lol
Yeah it's a bit disappointing to see a shield with 5+ javelins sticking out of it lol. Fians have always been OP, but at least it's good to see they can be countered by lower tier units :)
Seriously good info
Thanks.
Thank for you watching!!
Good content! Leaving a like for seeing Khan's Guard getting shredded.
Haha yeah those units need to be taken down a notch :)
Loose formation has one practical use for melee troops, and that is giving skirmishers room to all throw their weapons into oncoming troops while holding ground. Legionaries tend to dominate any infantry 1v1 type battle due to many of them spawning with the calradic mace which has a swing speed of over 100 and 60 something blunt damage, its nuts in the hands of the glue eating AI
Oh, you covered the loose formation right after i typed that >.>
It's all good, the algorithm is pleased with your offering nonetheless :D I wish more higher tier troops had maces because they are insane to deal with.
@@Strat-Guides More maces would be nice, or simply normalizing the damage on them to do more overall but have less armor penetration. Honestly I think the best thing TW could do for the AI is simply improving their combat behavior all around
I would love to see more variety in the maces. Agreed, they have such a good combat system and a poor AI to handle it. It's like having a million dollar car with self driving that was programmed by middle school kids lol
Ty for amazing content!
No problem, thank you for watching!!
This is a great guide. Whenever the devs actually let me separate unit types again so it's not just a disorganized rabble of different unit types all smashed together, controlled by a slider, I'll actually get to use things like skirmishers again.
I feel your pain, 100%. It's pretty frustrating. I read somewhere that they had to do it because battle order wouldn't work with the groupings. I don't know squat about programming, but I guess it was on the back end?
@@Strat-Guides Tbh I'll happily sacrifice battle order to be able to actually use more than just a solitary blob. What's even the point of OoB when you can't actually control the contents of your formations? After all, that's quite literally what 'order of battle' means IRL. There's no order if it's just 'the entirety of my infantry in front of the entirety of my not-infantry'
The only thing that's nice about battle order is picking captains, but liek you said I would much rather have control over who is in the units rather than captains.
I knew already that the Fians was great in melee, but holy cow... :D
Yeah they are pretty nasty. It's one of those situations where you want to flank the archers, but if they are Fians, do you REALLY want to flank them?? lol
@@Strat-Guides Naaaaaaaaah you make 2 groups 1 with peasants 1 with the actuall fightning group and just have the peasants as a meat shield ;) Its a win-win situation sense if thay die, you sacreficed their blood for the blood god, and you save money because dead men dont need gold *Evil laugh*
Lol time to level up medicine skills! :D
@@Strat-Guides haaay i didnt even think of that :D
@@Random-World-Eater Lol yeah! I developed a strategy recently while preparing for my next play through. Basically I'm not allowed to recruit anyone except prisoners, so I go around collecting villagers and send them into battle first no matter who the opponent is. Even without being able to recruit, you can still raise steward and medicine quickly this way since they are guaranteed to die lol
would love to see more rigorous tests on the fall back command for throwing infantry. I always loose volleys as the enemy approaches, then withdraw. They keep throwing volleys as they retreat, and then I charge when they come in contact or run out of javs. Idea being to prolongue the range part of battle before mele. Would love to see that tested more thoroughly. These videos are great!
Yeah I need to figure out a better way to do it. I know I used it in one of the bonuses here, but to be honest it was pretty half-@$$ed lol I'm wondering if the fallback command can be used to draw the enemy in and have a much easier time getting at their flanks? I'll see what I can come up with :)
Thank you for watching!!
It seems to me that, although you cause few deaths while retreating from an advancing shield wall, their morale suffers due to the incoming fire. Or they get enough injuries to limbs not protected by shields that they die quicker when melee starts. Would be awesome to run your battery of simulations on it!
Interesting, I didn't think to test morale loss from taking incoming projectiles. I'll give it a go! Thank you for the idea :D
This Video confirms my experience that shock infantry isn't really good. I have the feeling that especially skirmishers are disadvantaged by video game mechanics. Light armored units with spears should be a lot cheaper than similar heavy armored troupes. Shield walls also shouldn't be able to tank a nearly infinite amount of spears. In reality almost every shield becomes to heavy to hold with one or two spears stuck into it.
Yeah in real lift you wouldn't be able to carry the shield, I feel like either there needs to be an overweight mechanic for shields, or throwing weapons should do more damage to shields.
Yeah the hitbox on the shields is a bit crazy. I wouldn't be opposed to them making it more realistic, but maybe they could nerf ranged unit's aim a bit to compensate? It's just funny how 2500 javelins thrown at 500 troops and only 2 casualties LOL
Aserai and Vlandian shock troops are crazy good. The rest are trash
@@Strat-Guides Well I assume these tests are done with commanders that have no unit buffs, how well would shields hold up if the attackers has a commander that buffs anti-shield damage?
@@majormajorasic Yeah that's correct - it's custom battle where nobody has perks active. It's a great question and I would imagine it makes a difference to have some good perk combos. Also, having more morale and some morale perks would probably make a significant difference as well.
Almost always use my cav in skien and it works well. Then a shield wall two to three lines deep ahead of my ranged. Has worked well early game but as I've advanced I'm now going to have to step up my tactics game.
One thing I noticed from doing these tests is when you're so far ahead of the enemy's army and tactics, it pretty much doesn't matter what you do. Using the right formation and order really come into play when you're fighting a tough battle that could go either way. That's why I got away with using bad formations and orders for so long and assuming it was good. Thousands of hours lying to myself lol Thanks for watching!
"A shocking guide" :P Thanks for another amazing guide
Haha ba dum tisssh! I'm a dad now so I can make those kinda dad jokes I guess. I used to get annoyed at my dad when he did that kinda crap LOL time for payback! Thank you!
On skirmishes and shock infantry...in regards to the Irish, the light infantry/skirm Kerns would let loose their javelins and goad the enemy while withdrawing so the gallowglasses could hit the center and the Kerns would round back and flank on both sides
Interesting, I need to do some research on this! Thank you for sharing this :) Also, the name checks out lol
@@Strat-Guides they also sometimes used light cav / mounted skirms too
Non-mixed infantry is hard to use. Nice to have the numbers to back it up. I am really enjoying this series.
I'm just hoping they fix the ability to move similar unit types around. It's hard to separate infantry since we can't manually place them into groups now :(
Thank you, I'm glad you like it so far!
@@Strat-Guides agreed. It is hard to make specialized unit groups of the same type. Who knows if wildlings or oathsworn are any different.
Elite Menavliatons are so damn strong. they do 3/4th of your horse HP if they hit you. and if you get caught they 1 hit your character D: and then there are my menavliatons who just spectate half of the battles xD but all jokes aside legionary's and menavliatons with that perk '' T3 + units wont retreat with low morale '' is so amazing. especially when ur in a army and you have high tier units only. all the low ones retreat. making more of your own elite units spawn. and suddenly they have a solid force to get rid off. no matter how many you kill they wont run xD :D ive won alot of 4to1 battles mainly because of that perk. mixed in with ''your kills have higher effect on morale + troop kills hurt enemy morale more'' and you can do w/e you want. these videos are also really helpfull. ive been trying to ''test'' ai battles. and it has improved alot. archer wont stick like glue on your infantry anymore. ( i had no idea the ai was this ''advanced'' but, ) i was going a battle ( Epicrotea i think it was ) we were fighting outside. and the AI ordered the infantry to hold the bridge. i was specating curious to see what would happen. and the AI decided to have the arcer behind a little mountain. when the enemy force arrived at the bridge it lined them up the mountain. ( they had no acces to the archers because of the river blocking it and infrantry was on the bridge ) and it kept shooting from above. their archers had no chance either. 600 hours in and i still have fun. probally gonna end up like warband with 3k playhours xD if not more :D
Lol so true, they seem to knock me out in 50% of the battles of the WC series. Yeah that perk is really good, I pretty much take that one every time. I think the one I use most is Annoying Buzz from riding where ranged kills do more morale damage. Especially with headshots, it compounds the loss!
I feel like they changed the AI a bit in 1.7.0 because the battles have been a little bit tougher. It's still not a challenge once you get to late game with 1000 T5 unit army, but that's expected lol I'm quickly approaching 3k hours too! lol
@@Strat-Guides ah ye i forgot about the mounted perk. i always went for the melee one. i do use ranged but without a crosshair xD ( plays alot better once you get the feeling of it ) i thought the melee perk would benifit me more since i just take a few down with the bow and clap that big axe in their lines. what they could do to counter the player growing to fast. is have kingdoms for alliances. ( this works really well in Alligiance overhaul ) my biggest battle so far is 800 vs 1400. still won :D AI is good. but it needs alot of tuning. ( more common sense for example xD but perhaps later :D )
@@ShacolateClown That's a tough way to play! I did a short Robin Hood series with all the HUD turned off and it was really fun, but very difficult :)
Yeah the AI definitely needs to love lol. I'm going to try out the RBM AI mod soon, once these tests are all done, so hopefully that's a reasonable alternative.
I haven't played this game since it came out. I'm just hear for the quality content and maybe something will stick in my head if I decide to play again XD
They should be launching the game into full release later this year, it might be a good time to try it again at that point :) 1.7.0 was a reallg good patch but they can still do more, so hang in there! Thank you for watching even though you aren't playing currently, I appreciate the support :D
I'm just a beginner at Bannerlord with about 30h of gameplay. I really don't know how you maintain such a good Strategy while in battle.. im just.. EVERYONE.. CHRAGEEEE. I hope i can improve and your videos inspire to be better :D
Lol it just takes time and lots of repetition. It's still challenging at times when a lot of things are going on, I know what you mean!
A skirmisher tactic I didn't mention before since I was assuming you'd be fighting with a mixed army is the surround kite. First you need to separate your skirms into 3 groups. Whichever group gets engaged by melee units, have them run as fast as possible to reduce casualties while the other two groups maintain a safe range while firing at the enemies. Once the retreating group gets far enough away and the enemy switches to another group, switch their roles from retreating to attack and visa versa.
The reason you use 3 groups instead of two is because then you always have 66% of your troops attacking instead of just 50%. It also gives you the freedom to break off one group to kite an additional group of enemies while your two remaining groups eliminate the initial enemy.
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For shock troops..well I'm not sure how well it translates to Bannerlord, but their strengths are typically long range weapons, and either charge damage and damage absorption (heavy shock troop), or charge damage and mobility (light shock troop). Their staying power in toe-to-toe melee is typically inferior to other infantry so you'll want to minimize that.
For heavy shock troops, have them charge in as your vanguard then retreat through a line of shielded melee infantry that is backing them up. From there you can have the heavy shocks re-engage to make the most of their longer weapons from behind your shield infantry, circle around to flank the enemy, or have them chase into the mob of enemy ranged units to quickly mop up after your cav have them in disarray. They're also good for intercepting the enemy melee troops protecting their ranged units, giving your cav the opportunity to slip past.
For light shock troops, charge flanks then run away, then turn on those who follow so you can re-engage with a huge number advantage (which long weapons can make the most of). Rinse and repeat. They're also much better suited at chasing down ranged units.
I prefer light shock troops because of their superior mobility and DPS. It gives them a role that can sway the battle more readily than heavy shock troops. Cavalry are decent at the role, but they're typically more expensive, less dense, and take more time to do the same.
How are move-speeds like in Bannerlord? Is the difference between lighter and heavier armored troops significant?
Yeah that's a great point about different groups. I usually employ this tactic with archers, but I think it would work really well with skirmishers too!
I know what you mean regarding the shock troops. I think that's how they work in the Total War games if I recall? Unfortunately I don't think it works that way in Bannerlord :( There isn't really a charge bonus unless you're using cavalry that can couch lance. I'll try to run some more testing with them later, but I'm not so hopeful lol.
Yeah the armor weight makes a big difference to the movement speed. The same can be said for the unit's athletics skill.
Thank you for watching!!
interesting , im surprised you didnt test shock troops vs cavalry i assumed they would do well, as for foot archers im pretty sure line formation is best against infantry and loose against enemy archers and cavalry , as for commands i usually just tell them to stand ground or advance . I would be very interested in an episode for cavalry units i always just tell them to charge in line but im not sure thats the best , anyways love your vids!
Yeah I know what you mean, I had to draw the line somewhere though :) I try to keep most of my videos around the 10 - 15 minute mark and I had to cut quite a bit from this one to get it under 20 minutes lol I'll be sure to include that when we get to the cavalry. I'm also going to be testing unit vs unit and making a few videos on that. I'll probably end up going tier by tier testing them all out, which I think will provide some interesting data.
So I'm working on archers next, then melee cavalry will be next :D Thank you for watching!
shock troops versus calvary also performs poorly. Granted, i only tested legionarys and voulgier, both of use spears (without spear rework) that do next to no damage, so that could be it
Another great video. It's interesting to think about how skirmishers fit into a roster - I feel like they kind of are overtaken by (most) archers. The basic purpose is to whittle down the enemy as you approach and then serve a secondary role in melee once they're out of ammo.
It's hard to see how any of the skirmishers do that better than a high quality archer (e.g. fian). I suppose *most* skirmishers are better than *most* archers due to the shields are better dual role capacity? Perhaps it's only at the elite end with some of the khuzait and battanian archers beating out skirmishers in the melee role. I guess one way they could beat out archers is by forming a shield wall, wasting the archers ammo then charging in loose formation? But that relies on a lonnnnnggg wait while the archers run out of ammo.
In the end I think they're probably best served as flank units that can mostly hold their own/protect themselves against horse archers/archer fire and if you win the flank cav engagements push around and throw their javs in the rear. Really interesting and high quality video though, looking forward to the rest.
i use shielded ones in front of my archer line or as tanks, the throwing weapons are just a bonus, probably not the best way to use them but seems to work well enough for me
I mostly agree with you here, although there is one role I think they do well at - assaulting other ranged units. They trade well but only because they have the shield out and can throw with the shield equipped still. That being said, I would rather have a small group of fian champions running a flank on an enemy than javelin troops with only 5 javelins.
I think once we get into the mixed unit testing it will become much more obvious if they are worth using or not. I'm hopeful though!!
Agreed, they are strong once they get into an unprotected flank!
personally i use advance when closing the distance while holding formation. then i switch to shield wall for defense or charge for attack
Yeah I think that's the way to go to more I look at the testing and all the data. It seems like the biggest take away from these tests is to avoid personally fighting in the bigger battles as long as possible because micro is extremely important to being efficient! It's just hard to get away from it because it's so much fun lol
I think part of the issue for the menavlion, is that in single player their weapons are so short, whereas in multiplayer they are much longer and do much better. That reach sort of protects them and gives them an advantage. In general, I feel like shock troops need a buff in single player.
They used to be much better, but they changed their weapon stats a few patches ago. I'll need to test their effectiveness against cavalry as I suspect that's what they wanted their role to be. Yeah a much longer weapon would be beneficial!
i think what's important to note is that when you are detaching units for flanking maneuvers. your main center body should be on defensive positions. retreating back slightly and holding shield wall rather than charging. this will extend the battle much longer allowing your flanking move to actually yield results.
Yeah that's a great point, and probably why the 2nd bonus testing didn't go so well lol. The biggest issue I was having was getting too close with the flank and the enemy troops would peel off and start chasing the skirmishers. It really messed up my plans lol
@@Strat-Guides yeah the game makes infantry movement speed so similar that there's no distinction between light skirmishers and heavy infantry. in fact sometimes they are one and the same as the case of the sturgian axemen. game should add a sprint system. could be off cd or introduce a stamina system used for sprint, attack and blocks. i think realistic battle mod already has a simpler version called the "posture system" if he can implement that then the stamina thing shouldn't be too far out of reach.
Agreed, they need to do some work with the movement speeds. Even in the earlier testing, it was nearly impossible to know if a perk was working or not as matching frame by frame would be roughly 2 frames different over a 30 second run at 60 FPS.
I feel like a medieval commander in training.
Lol that's what I like to hear! :D
I've recently subscribed and started watching all your playlists on bannerlord, especially your boy freddy
I've really found these battlefield tactic guides useful, and I never knew how useful smithing was until I saw your freddy lets play
However Menavlion's are not Shock infantry,
Melee infantry from what I've seen usually fall into three groupings.
Shielded infantry to act as the anvil and absorb ranged damage,
Shock/two-handed infantry to act as the hammer and crush through well armored targets,
and Spear infantry, to impede cavalry.
That being said running at legionaries throwing javelins while you're holding a two handed axe might work just as poorly as running at them with a "pike", but as shown by the fians and their two handed falxs, two handed weapons (especially axes with bonus against shields and crush through) are better in melee than board and sword.
Nice, thank you for the support! That WC was really fun for me :) I'm finished up the recap video right now, it's been about 50 - 60 hours or work put into it so it should be really good (fingers crossed lol).
Yeah that's a good point, they are two handed infantry but would more appropriately be considered spear infantry. In the cavalry testing, they did really well against the cav as long as they had the charge command given.
Great video! It's a shame skein works so well because it exploits bannerlord's berserker AI. It baits the entire enemy line into going for the closest middle guy so they form an untactical ball that is surrounded easily.
Yeah, I think this can be mitigated on the player side by using advance command, then switching to charge at the very last second. It would be great if they could program the AI to do the same!
That works in real life. It's called an "oblique order of battle" or "echelon assault." You send a fraction of your force in ahead of the others so the enemy is forced to react and concentrate their numbers in that one spot, so your other troops have less resistance when they arrive slightly later. Frederick the Great won the Battle of Leuthen doing this.
So as far as I can tell from what I take way from this video, a shield wall of legionaries with a loose formation of skirmishers behind them will probably be a lethal combination against any force without shields, and because skirmishers can also hold their own in melee combat too they might help to pad out the forces more than an archer force would (outside of, you know, Fians) when a battle devolves into a charge melee.
Personally I can't ever see a situation where I'd take skirmishers over archers, and I'm definitely not replacing my shield wall of legionaries any time soon either from the results here.
Would be very interested to see the effects against cavalry of a row of pikemen in front, and then using skirmishers as the padding behind to thin out the cavalry first with javelins and then also catch them when they punch through the (unfortunately) useless pikemen.
Yeah I think you're spot on there. I'm going to be doing unit vs unit testing for each tier unit, which I think will help shed some light on good combinations to use (or more importantly, combinations to avoid).
I think the only area where skirmishers excel is against large numbers of ranged troops. If you can't achieve ranged superiority, then the extra shields can help close to gap while keeping the unit intact. It's hard to say though, I'll have to test out some different scenarios once we get to the big battle testing!
That's a really good idea, I didn't think of that. a thin line of pikemen, spear brace, skirmishers just behind them on hold fire, then BLAM lol I'll have to try that out, thank you for the idea!!
Well, hold ground and advance are movement commands. I could see hold ground for choke points, but even then I’d switch to charge once both sides connect to take advantage of space. If I really don’t want to push out I’d move the formation back with a command rather than just standing.
Most battles come down to quality and the most important quality is your infantry. High tier infantry can carry most battles. Archers are fine, but armor really stifles their damage and I haven’t had a lot of success with xbows. Mounts break enemy formations for your infantry but are only really effective against other Calvary or archers. Infantry are just op.
Edit: what about those mounted skirmishers? Takes too long for infantry, but a detachment of mounted skirmishers could set up quickly for a few volleys.
I'm really hoping the game implements the approach RBM takes with javelins vs. shields. Based on history, the javelin and like weapons were primarily used to strip the shields off of enemy formations. The javelins would get lodged in enemy shields making them heavy and unwieldy as well as offering handholds for opponents to grab and wrench them away in combat. Infantry would often end up discarding their shields, leaving them open to attack.
RBM represents this by drastically increasing the damage that javelins do to shields. I feel like this would bring a very positive change to the game and make tactics with skirmishers way more interesting.
Wait, so it's not possible to hold a shield up with 5 javelins stuck in it?! ;) I'm not sure how they would implement it, but I'm 100% for this.
It would be pretty crazy to throw some javelins, then move the archers in behind them. I wonder if that was common place back then? Or maybe they charged in before it got to that point?
RBM is at the top of my list for mods to test out and do videos on, so this makes me even more psyched up to cover it!
@@Strat-Guides Oh, I should have been more clear. The way RBM handles this is just by having javelins do way more damage to shields. 2-3 Javelins and a shield is gone. You can even take one out with a single javelin if you're moving really fast on a horse.
End result is that if you have a bunch of infantry coming at you unsupported in shieldwall, you send your skirmishers in first, they trash the shields and then you either cut them down with arrows or send your shock troops in.
RBM, (should) when it's done right, require more of a 'combined arms' approach to your strategy.
@@grisch4329 That's music to my ears :) I really enjoy having more than one role for each unit, giving a lot more options and allowing for more creativity.
So first off: your methodology is impeccable. I have to applaud the hyper-scientific style being applied to try to mitigate the effects of RNG, as this game can be ridiculously subject to it's effects. Also, thanks to your methods, I've learned that I might just replace all two-hand troops with Fian Champions since they slice through everything when they're done punching holes in everything! Lesson learned lol.
That being said, I can't help but notice a couple problems with this specific video. For one thing, 4 of the 6 cultures have shock troops... And the Empire/Menavliaton isn't one of them. Sure, you could use them in a shock role if your were desperate I suppose, but they are skirmishers (even by your own definition when later on you use Woodsmen... which are just much worse Menavliatons, except for having more javelins). Of course it came as no surprise when they were trounced by the Legionaries because they had nothing to counter the shield. Pilums technically have bonus damage against shields but we all know what that's worth. The entire point of the shock troop is to beat the shield into submission at the cost of defense, where skirmishers poke from range... Exactly what the Menavliaton does.
Likewise, you were using Sturgian Heavy Axemen (a frontline heavy infantry) as the de facto skirmisher for a good amount of the testing. This is less of a problem than the other since they can function in that capacity, but it further skews results since they have some of the heaviest armor stats of any infantry unit in the game. By the exact same logic, the Legionary you often use is also a skirmisher because they are almost identically equipped to the Axeman, javelin and all. Furthermore, except for the Khuzait Darkhan... Literally every frontline infantry could do the same job, the criterion of which only really seems to be "throw spear". Now if you were addressing "skirmisher" as a role rather than a designated unit then it would be a completely logical conclusion, but it really does seem to be addressing the Axeman as a skirmisher by trade.
It wouldn't even really be an issue if the rest of the scientific method wasn't SO outstanding, because it basically undermines what would otherwise be pristine testing. I guess take it as a compliment wrapped in a complaint, as the only reason I even feel this all relevant is due to it being a seemingly strange set of oversights in what would otherwise be a hyper-informative video. I've watched a ton of your stuff and it's all great, so this one threw me off a little.
I would LOVE your feedback, especially if I misunderstood something which I could then learn from. Great content man.
(and im sorry lol i can't skip it, menavli-a-ton, the menavlion is the weapon they use)
Thank you! Yeah I try to incorporate a lot of what I learned in school (I studied physics and astrophysics) so that I have an excuse to actually use my degree haha :D Fians are insane. It's hard to say what's worse, being shot at by them or facing them in melee lol
Good point, I probably should have used a different unit to show their effectiveness. I was going with the empire theme for these videos and just kept going with it as long as they had a unit to fit the role, but I think Battania, Sturgia or Aserai would have been much better.
I think maybe using Battania would have been a better idea for testing skirmishers as they seem to have a great mix for that role. I moistly just picked something that was high tier and have at least a stack of 5 javelins. I'm going to be doing unit vs unit testing soon so that should shine some light on which units are the most effective in that role.
Yeah you bring up some valid points. Once my my biggest flaws is that I get tunnel vision once I find a format that seems to be working. It worked well for the other videos so I just plowed ahead without thinking about the setup enough. I think these concerns will be addressed once we start looking at unit vs units testing and mixed unit testing.
Interesting, I was wondering why there was a difference! Light bulb moment lol thank you :D
@@Strat-Guides Remarkable introspection my friend. Not many people possess that talent. I do the same things with tunnel vision and sticking to a working formula, which is why I tend to call it out more readily in others. I guess it's a bit of displacement behavior. As I said before, your videos are still amazing... It was only finally seeing a crack that made it so I even paid attention, as normally there are none. Good work either way, and I applaud your healthy attitude towards criticism!
@@Strat-Guides Oh and also... I can't wait to see your mixed unit testing. Your videos inspired me to do some of my own testing and I'm getting some ideas/conclusions. It would be very interesting to see what your testing turns up. I might be late to the part on this one, but if i might give you a gentle nudge: the Imperial Sergeant Crossbowman may be one of the more OP units in the game when used flexibly haha. My initial tests have shown some remarkable results ;)
Hello there my friend! Ive watched all you videos aobut tactics and wich way is better. So, shield wall + charge is the best way and circule until the correct moment and then charge :D
Thank you very much for your guide!
Im smithing a lot of weapons and finally ive unloked one part of the satan weapon :/ HAHAHA i will keep doing it. Thanks for your hard work! :D
Heya! Nice, I think this series is a lot more practical that some other ones I did. Yeah I think that's good. Skein is also really good with charge you need to move faster.
I'm happy to do it, thank you for watching!
Oooh yeah get that Satan's Tooth going :)
15:54 Anaconda with horse archers look like Cantabrian Circle, didn't know it was possible to be recreated in Bannerlord :D
Yeah it's pretty useful! I mostly use it when outnumbering the enemy by a lot because they will sit there and take the damage, but in a close battle they will come for you and it won't work. Still, when it does work, it's like watching performance art!
It still surprises that the faction (sturgia) known for their heavy infantry gets outclassed by the legionaries
@@rivetingpotato4865 Besides my point.
It was nice to see that there is still a way to win the Sturgia, but I agree their infantry need some help. I would rather see the heavy axemen be stronger in melee, lose the javelins and put the javelins on the heavy spearmen. To me, this would make much more sense.
Yeah good point. Higher tier troops should have more mace option IMO.
@@Strat-Guides I agree also because the heavy spearman is pretty trash right now.
@@alexandersingeric364 I did a couple prelim tests and I can 100% confirm with a few bits of data lol bad bad bad
Great video, I'm sure you quite enjoyed seeing all those menavlions dying :D
After you are done with examining all troops with default stats, would you try to re-run some tests with skill perks? If that's possible. For ex. how much would it change if javelin throwing troops had all perks that increase their amount.
Hahaha Yeah a little payback was nice here :)
That's a great idea, I'll add it to the list. It would be too much to test all of the perks, but maybe I can do a couple "dream builds" and test what difference it would make? What comes to mind is finding a large battle in a campaign, save before going in, use console to set stats and pick the perks, then run the battle several times to get the numbers. Then reset all hero/companion stats and run it with no perks at all to see the difference. I bet it would be a huge difference!
@@Strat-Guides Yeah, dream builds are exactly what I had in mind and probably would be interesting to others. And maybe TW will add that feature sometime down the line.
I have to disagree with the one comment about throwing javs at sheilded units being a waste of potential because the use of skirmishers isnt fully potrayed here with loose formation. loose +charge at a distance of within 100 to 150 does massive damage to the defending infantry which hopefully gets them to commit to a now retreating skirmisher line opening them up to cav charge + Archer volley. I use a 5 peice formation so i use skirmisher tactics often. thank you for the post and keep up the great analysis.
Interesting, I'll have to give that a try! How many units do you place in your skirmisher formation usually? Thank you for watching and for the input, I'm interesting in putting together the best tactics so if there is an improvement to be made I'm all for it!
Think I have to be fair because this video does the best at demonstrating these tactics using the native troops. My game is based around RBM and DRM so there's some major changes in mechanics and troops on my end. Being that "Shields will be splintered" lol.
What lead me to using the 5 peice formation was my desire to recreate moorish battle formations with the aeserai troops. DRM drastically nerfs the aserai into a combined arms operation compared to everyone else the aserai are some of the lightest armed units. Which lead me to this formation. Generally I like to run a 5 peice formation similar in composition to moorish formations of the 12th century.
I like to break things down into 100 man units for simplicity (not including archers to note I always proportion my archers 10:5. The vanguard is essentially our skirmisher line (thrown weapons only) and will consist of 25 to 30% this is not fixed its all depending on the quality of troops and the desired effect.. for me the aserai being lightly armed, less means more mobility, essentially this unit is basically "swing man" because imo its a bit unwieldy to shift my main line unless u break the shield line down into left and right wings.
In marching order the skirmisher line moves behind my archer line in line formation so they don't outpace the army providing rear security vs cav. In attacking order they go loose + move or advance (thx to your videos because the move commands are key here because the attacking ranges vary depending on the command) charge imo is great but unless told to hold fire they might throw javs at undesired targets like the ai sending a cav unit to troll you. So I usually do a move command to around 100m of the enemy formation fire at will at 150m charge at 100m this will usually pinpoint the barrage without getting to close like with advance after 3 volleys I issue a fallback usually resulting into a charging formation all the while my mainline has been on advance in sheildwall with archers skirmishing from behind and then we move into phase two.
With the skirmishers fallen back and the mainline now engaged I usually sit the skirmishers in a loose+hold somewhere directly behind the Frontline and in front of the archer line. This allows small groups of men to sporadically reinforce the line while they most sit back and support with Javs usually vs the archer lines and occasionally vs cav. The skirmisher line can also be used as a proper "weak side" flank depending on quality of troops again. Because of high mobility I often use this tactic when I notice breaks in the enemy line. This can also be used defensively but is dependent on quality of troops. It might also be worth noting because of my use of RBM ballistics have different mechanics resulting in skirmishers having an advantage on hills and mounds in terms of engagement range. Especially good vs cav.
P.s While I was on subject figured I'd add this on camel riders are some of the worst cav units of game because of mismanagement. Camel riders are basically skimishers on mounts and should be used as such save the barrage for the sheildwall one the camels have done their wheel they should be dismounted and thrown into melee. Cavalry units were intended to be dismounted specifically camels cause most of the time their melee weapons can't even reach which should tell you something. Javelins are not ment to get kills though Javelins do kill they are ment to render sheilds useless and deter charging cav (which is why they target the horse vs rider) they are support weapons.
@@wolfzwizdom Sorry bro, I wish I could respond to this but my kids are going nuts right now lol I know you put a lot into it so I wanted to let you know :) I'll try to catch up later when they are napping.
@@Strat-Guides lol not at all figured since I have the weekend free I'd mess around with bannerlord. In an attempt to figure out effectiveness of move commands brought me here and you a new sub. I'm new to M&B in general and possible streamer in the feature. But being a historical buff figured I'd throw my 2 cents in.
@@wolfzwizdom Oh, got it. Yeah I think certain mods might produce different results than vanilla.
Good point about wasting javlins on harassing cavalry. I think most people just let them go willy nilly and wonder why they don't get any kills :)
I'll have to read up on that, I'm not familiar with moorish battle tactics. But it sounds really cool!
LOL I wasn't aware of that for camels, is that specific to the mods? The minor faction that uses camels seem to be effective, but again maybe that changes with the mod.
I appreciate the support and you'll have to let me know if you do any steaming, I'll pop in once in a while if time permits :D
As for charge extending range for skirmishers:
Running = momentum = weapon speed = longer range of javelin. Even without related perk, this still affects gameplay and since AI "aims" from an algorytm, rather than eye-balling it, it gets far better use out of it than a human player - especially when tossing it into tightly packed group of shieldless units.
And to be frank - nothing really surprised me here, gameplay-wise. Maybe only the 1000 IQ moment on AI side, because there is some irregularity that cause AI to do this when using horse archers and skirmishers, but I never figured out what's the actual trigger for it
That's true, although they slow down a lot to throw but I guess even a walking speed can impart enough momentum to get the extra range. I wonder if the same is true for cavalry then? They would have a massive range!
I suspect the AI turns to the closest unit. The units from the main line were quickly dying off, which means the flanking units might have actually been closer for those few that turned. I'm not positive, but I feel pretty confident in that because I've seen it several times in the testing. It's interesting because the break ranks to chase, so there might be an opportunity for a feigned retreat?
@@Strat-Guides The range increase isn't really that great, but as far as my observation goes whenever going for Aserai army - they do throw from longer distance than infantry. Not MUCH longer, but definitely longer.
@@Myrth1 I would have expected a much longer range, that's too bad. I guess every little bit helps though.
@@Strat-Guides The real game-changer to this is that AI has far superior aim at long range than typical player. Sure, a very skilled player (and I mean player's skill, not character's) will out-do AI, but otherwise AI is far more lethal when it comes with javelins and especially when it's cavalry.
Semi-related: are Bucellarii shit, or I'm just demanding too much from non-Khuzait horse archers? I find this unit to be extremely underwhelming, regardless of how it is used. It obviously sucks as pure cavalry, but they seem to be just as awful in their default role AND getting to their tier is tough by default, given how lackluster low tier imperial archers are (and then how much they jump up in quality by veteran)
@@Myrth1 That's a good point, they will hit a headshot while moving on horse on me while I'm moving perpendicular at full speed from 40m lol. Aim bot detected!
So I did some testing of the Bucellarii for the foot archer video coming out tomorrow and they are decent, but need to have sufficient numbers to do damage. I think aside from Khan's guard, all horse archers suffer the same issues. Unless you have a "critical mass" it's hard to get consistent damage. I don't know what that number is, but I know 10 - 15 ain't it lol I have some interesting tests that I think will be helpful, keep an eye out for it tomorrow sometime.
Very interesting tests.
One issue I see is that there are arguably better shock infantry. The Battanians have the Veteran Falxman, which I think is the best shock infantry right now.
It seems Skein is the best on a charge. I still think that having a circle without the side flanking works best because it is less micro intensive.
One other interesting question is what would happen with Jareed type throwing weapons that can penetrate shields.
One other recommendation I have is that when trying out Realistic Battle Mod, use the AI module as well. The AI acts quite differently than the base game and in many ways, better.
Yeah for sure, I am going to be testing unit vs unit across the board so we will see how each one matches up against each other :)
Skein seemed to work well for pretty much everyone, it seems to get at the flanks the easiest.
I'm sure the javelin type would have a huge difference! I'm excited to test our the Aserai cavalry since they seems to be the least utilized by most (myself included).
Sounds good! I have plans for doing a full mod review on RBM and doing a side by side comparison for a couple battles. I'm really looking forward to trying that one out!
@@Strat-Guidesif you want, let me know if you are looking for a specific mod that does something. I've got over 50 installed on my Bannerlord.
Oh wow, that's an extensive list! Okay sounds good, I'll keep that in mind :D Do you know if there are other AI improvement mods besides RBM? I have not tried RBM yet, but it would be interesting to compare it to other mods as well once I get there. Also, any mod that increases the difficulty level :P
@@Strat-Guides Not that I know of. There are marriage mods out there, but that is it.
Once you get into mods, you have to be careful as well because mods can interfere with one another.
Skein + charge once again being great. outflanking op
Yeah it really is. I think it's not so much that skein is all the good, but that the formation naturally leads to a flank (as you pointed out). Thank you for watching!!
lmao at that one guy at 12:05 who came too late but still wants to get in on the fighting
hahaha "Wait for me! I want some glory too!"
Thank you very much for your videos they help me a lot to improve my tactics!! Btw I really like how you represent information using numbers in a table. Excuse the question ¿What program did you use? Google Docs? Excel?
Thank you for watching! I'm glad you like the data haha I really enjoy collecting numbers :) It's a program called Notion - it's 100% free too!
@@Strat-Guides I wish I had someone as a teacher who explains as well as you
Thank you very much for the program! I'm lovin 'it!
@@zenonhermanodemai5244 Lol I did used to tutor some in my younger days, but I can't imagine teaching a whole class. I would probably troll my students all the time and piss people off haha CZcams videos are much safer :)
I'm happy to help, thank you for helping me with the algorithm!
Are you using the RTS Camera mod during these videos? I didn't know it works for 1.7.0? Please confirm as I've been patiently waiting for that mod to update. Great video as always!
Yeah that's the RTS camera mod, but it's the one on the RBM mod page. It's indeed updated for 1.7.0 :D
Thank you for watching!
Have you considered doing similar tests while using the Realistic battle Mod as well at some point? It would be very interesting to see just how much the dynamics of battle change with the mod.
Yeah! I'm going to be using that mod once we finish this series off and I'll be doing a full mod review with tests showing with and without :) I'm really looking forward to it because the base game AI will sometimes perform well, but mostly just fail hard lol
Thank you for watching!
The melee with that mod are significantly longer, which probably will give you time to position your skirmishers for example. It's game changer
@@Strat-Guides I'm looking forward to your analysis on Realistic Battle mod!
Lol it's crazy how a battle with 200+ melee troops per side will be over in less than 60 seconds. I'm pretty sure it didn't work that way IRL :)
Vid was great. I've been thinking about it a lot and I feel that Bannerlord severely lacks any tactical gameplay when it comes to a battles/sieges. I understand that it is more focused on first person action combat, but I still want to have Total War like battles. It's especially apparent in the late game when your character is maxed out. I guess what I want is Total War styles battles + first person action combat, that would be an ideal. Maybe I should create my own game after all :D
This. One thing to add: Earlygame combat is more first person combat, while lategame is like big army vs big army, your personal fighting impact diminishes whilst your impact as a army commander raises. So yeah its both. And it lacks depth in being a general.
or simply get the RTS camera mod and there you, you can do exactly that
RTS Camera and Realistic battle ia
@@jamie_d0g978 tried that, still not what I'm looking for
If they didn't allow your character to be a god in the battle field.... The mid game (ie the first time the kingdom forms) actually required a lot of tactics and formations on my part.
I'd be interested to see how axe shock troops fare in these tests. cleave is ridiculously OP
I'm going to be testing all the units in the game pretty heavily soon, so I'll be sure to check this!
Hello! Are you using a mod for controling the units from the sky? In actual battle I barely see the formations to try some of the more micro intensive strats.
Yup! This is the RTS mod, which is part of the RBM mod. If you search for RBM on Nexus, then go to files page and scroll down a bit you'll see RTS mod for 1.7.0 and 1.7.1.
If possible. I think a short complete summary at the end would be nice. Light a keypoints map.
Thank you for watching! I'll try to make my end of section recaps more thorough, sorry about that!
The disadvantage of the Advance command is that the units that pushes farther will abandon the push, turn around and go back to the formation losing their momentum, some times gets killed in the process. The Charge ignores the formation and the position which leaves the unit most of the time behind enemy line and quickly surrounded and overwhelmed -- and yes, killed. Most of the time I issue a Line command to fall back and regroup when my units are all scattered after a charge. I never use the Advance command for Infantries, I believe that command is for skirmishers and archers.
That's a good analysis, seems spot on to me :) I think advance can be okay when you're not in battle. For example, if the enemy sends a couple random units your way, sometimes you'll get a chunk of the line breaking off to chase them and splitting your forces. Advance can help keep them together, although you have to micro them more once the fighting starts.
Would you do a army compo video? for each faction? mine favorites so far are:
For Battania - Fiann champions bulk with 20/40/60 widlings in front just for some shield
For Aserai - Aserai master archer bulk with 20/40 mameluke heavy cav and 5/10 vanguard faris as bodyguard
For Kuzait... - full khan guards... yeah one does not need more than that... Sun Zun would be proud with the F1+F3 tactic
Havent tried the other 3... well im trying with empire, trying to do a ALL UNIT TYPES in there, but not being able to separate shock from shield infatry hurts...
Yeah that's exactly what we are building up to :D I just wanted to control as much of the testing as possible so we can know which matchups work on a unit by unit and formation by formation basis, so that when we get to the full on mixed battles we can intelligently setup our army.
LOL Sun Tzu was spot on regarding Khan's guards!
Thanks!
Thank you so much for the support!!
Hey Strat,
Just curious which RTS camera mod you use for battles? Haven’t used one before but it looks insanely beneficial for controlling the madness during large battles.
Hey Cole! This is the one posted on the RBM mod page. It's on the files page of Nexus. It's a stand alone mod so you don't need to use the other stuff and works for 1.7.1 and 1.7.0. It really does help a ton getting that perspective!
In short, shock and skirmisher units fail at their roles and are unable to compete with cheaper or evenly matched units. Javelins do too little damage, have too little range, and have too low ammo pools to be viable, shock units have much worse defensive stats without significant offensive bonuses.
I like how the Realistic Battle Mod changes javelins to do increased shield damage, making them capable of destroying shields in 1-3 hits. This small changes makes them viable.
I hope we get large scale commander vs commander battles for this game like in Napoleonic wars
Yeah that would be really nice. I wouldn't even mind it if they split huge battles up into 2 or 3 battles on separate maps that can eventually reinforce the main one or something like that. I think battles IRL rarely were in a single spot and usually spread out over a couple miles of land, so it wouldn't be unreasonable and probably be easier that having one massive 10,000 unit battle on screen at once.
Damn, i expected the shield infantry circle + shock troops on the flanks to win. So far it seems like shield infantry is much better than shock troops.
Skirmisher infantry seems pretty good.
I need to look again at these tests in 1.8.0 because the blunt damage nerf could be huge against legionaries. I am glad I didn't get into the unit vs unit testing videos yet! Those will be coming soon
Strat, you should make some guides on the ROT mod troop trees.
In one of your videos you used the advance command with Legionaries, I believe. A few moved forward to engage, a couple moved back to keep the formation. Wouldn't that work for skirmishers? The ones going back should disengage from melee and get back into throwing range.
I'm not sure how much this would affect the results but you can get a Battanian Wilding up to -210ish- 195 throwing. The way the throwable scaling works with damage is exponential, so having that much skill would likely result in many more kills. Maybe worth considering?
It scaled exponentially? Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. And I didn't realize they had such a high throwing skill, that's crazy. I'm going to be doing unit vs unit testing soon so I'll be sure to check these guys out. Also, there are a few perks that increase throwing skills, which would make a huge difference in this case!
Not a big fan of shock troops, I usually like to use infantry that have javelins to weaken the enemy as they approach, then as soon as they are close enough, I order them into a shield wall and have them hold until the cavalry flanks them or simply have the infantry charge them. It's a very fun tactic and effective at dehorsing cavalry.
Yeah same, I almost always prefer the shield troops. Although after seeing how much damage they do to an unprotected flank, I'm going to try to work them into an army from now on :)
even though ive been playing Mount & Blade for years im still a newb.
with bannerlord i've been mostly lazy and F6 focus on fighting. is there a good half-way recommendation for formation as im learning/getting used to micro managing like this? From someone mainly going from F6 ?
That's a tough question to answer, but the best I can think of right now if to maybe put cavalry and horse archers on f6 and focus on using the infantry and archers first? Then once you get comfortable with controlling those, you can add in the others. It's hard to say because whatever you give to the ai will be sacrificed lol
@@Strat-Guides haha thanks for the advice. In my campaign now I am fighting vs empire a lot so I am getting decimated by their cavalry all the time... (I am Batannia, loads of Fians)
I wonder how a skein formation frontline with skirmishers on the sides works. It should angle the attackers in a very beneficial way for your javelin throwing if done properly and is likely comparable to the circle formation defense right?
Good point, the enemy will collapse to meet the shape of the skein and expose more of their side and rear. I'll have to try it out! The only downside is skein isn't as good defensively as the shield wall formations, but it should still work.
I am a little curious as to how effective throwing perks are against some of these formations. I know that not using them is better from a scientific standpoint but if stacking something like the Splinters which deals 50% more damage to shields and shield breaker which increases it another 8% could make enemy shield wall charges less effective. Or the Perfect throw perk helping for farther range due to the projectile speed increase
Yeah it's a good question and I'm not sure the answer just yet. I was planning on doing a companion guide and one section in it would be for captains - this sounds like it would be a perfect test for that. I'm hoping to get to that guide soon, but we will see. This series is a bit more time-intensive that I anticipated because of all the testing required.
15:55 - I'm 100% stealing the follow me + column formation command 😂
Haha it's all yours! As long as you have enough time to get the chain going, it's really fun and useful :)
How are you able to separate shock troops from the ones with shields? I only see the option for heavy, shield, pike and skirmish infantry when creating formations.
There is an option in the prebattle setup where you can select units with a shield, which I used to separate them out. Basically, we have 250 units with a shield and 250 without, so I set formation 1 to prefer shielded infantry, then set the slider so that 250 units fill that formation. Anything that's left over will be the shock troops :D
Would you be considering a RBM mod evaluation of troops? Just thinking about how would formations work without ganking each other!
Yeah! That's the first mod of my list of testing once I finish up this series :D
What about a reverse skein? Can you get them to chuck javies In this formation? Then when charge is administered it turns into a false gap in a way. 14:26
These tactics tests are great, but what happens when you have a full mixed army against a full mixed army? Melee cavalry, horse archers, infantry, archers, shock troops, etc. What then? These tests are great but I don't see a line of 200 fian champions against a charging javelin thrower army ever happening in game.
I'm genuinely asking, not being facetious. Do you have a video that explains the best tactics for a real mixed army scenario? And if so, how would you micro all those tactics in time? I just want to be the best battlefield general I can be.
Also, F1 + F3 and "follow your sergeant" commands are great if you want to focus on your character fighting, which is often the most fun, but gets old after a while. Feels like it would be more effective to be a general than a single soldier, even if you're racking up 5-10% of the kills yourself.
what i learned from the video: F1+F3
Lol oh no! I'm working on an army tactics guide today that should be ready for tomorrow, hopefully that expands the options beyond Sun Tzu ;)