Let Your Players Find An Edge
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2024
- Just as the Greeks beat impossible odds with their usage of the Trojan Horse, players can defeat more powerful enemies when you allow them to find an edge.
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amzn.to/4085L0... RPG systems are built around balancing encounters to match a party's current level. But this practice can create boring entounters and ignores a vital aspect of a fun campaign: player agency.
Join me on Discord: / discord
Check out my podcast with Daniel Norton of @BanditsKeep. We talk about D&D and being a GM and a whole lot more.
Monsters and Treasure Podcast
Apple: podcasts.apple...
Anchor: anchor.fm/mons...
Spotify: open.spotify.c...
Here are some of the products you can use to start playing D&D and create your own homebrewed campaign.
Player's Handbook 5e, Amazon Affiliate Website Link:
amzn.to/43xZaiU
Monster Manual 5e, Amazon Affiliate Website Link:
amzn.to/3zTjr55
Dungeon Master's Guide 5e, Amazon Affiliate Website Link:
amzn.to/3o9OOpn
Tasha's Cauldron of Everything
amzn.to/3zX5i6Y
Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse 5e
amzn.to/3zTjWft
Fizban's Treasury of Dragons 5e
amzn.to/3Uxfaxu
Xanathar's Guide To Everything 5e, Amazon Affiliate Website Link:
amzn.to/3KrKJEs
Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes 5e, Amazon Affiliate Website Link:
amzn.to/3mtGsZf
Volo's Guide To Monsters 5e, Amazon Affiliate Website Link:
amzn.to/3MBpNgZ
Dungeons and Dragons 5e Core Rulebooks Gift Set, Amazon Affiliate Website Link:
amzn.to/3oeOu8Y
Sword Coast Adventuring Guide, Amazon Affiliate Website Link:
amzn.to/4085L0K
My notion is to never roadblock the plot with a check and to seek how to let the narrative occur. If the players devise a plan, the checks are there to resolve if, or sometimes better how well, things are resolved. Difficulty yes, impossibility no. Even if it is roll a natural 20! In devising any scenario I try to build in some back door that might be harder in a different way, perhaps all RP or charisma or a combat they seek to avoid, and if a plan is plausible think where checks can be to affect it rather than say no. All great food for thought!
Exactly! I thought about including tactics like disguise or forgery to get inside the fortress, but it made for a very long video.
Get a Druid to shapeshift, or Wizards familiar to scout the fortress from the air. That's my goto. Great video and solid advice, Default to Yes....but with possible consequences/complications. 🎲
Good ideas. Then you not only the external layout of the keep, but the schedule of the guards.
Great video. A thing that happened in yesterday's session was that the PC cleric used 2 spells to create a combo of effects. I am not sure if that's how RAW would work, but it sure was cool when the player managed to pull it off. It's very good to be open minded even if it doesn't sound plausable at first. Talking it out with the players is always good. Also something that came to my from the "Yes, but" part was a game designer called John Wick (not the movie, the real guy) said something like "Say yes to the character, but say no the player when they're acting up".
It's great when players come up with something cool, and if ot bends RAW just a little you can go along with a qualifier. You just have watch those limits.
Another wonderful video with great advice. This is why it is so important to design problems not solutions so you leave room for the players to improvise.
Another D&D proverb has benn coined: create problems not solutions! Like I do at work!
Great video! A good rule of thumb for this style of running is this: "The players determine what is possible. The GM determines what is probable." There's always times when you have to give a hard no, obviously, but when that happens it's better to ask yourself "what's the best version of what they're asking that could actually work?" than to just shut them down without giving anything.
Because the players will push things to see the edges of what's possible. Who can blame them? We're all out to win games, even if in an RPG you don't win in the conventional sense.
Great video, KR. When I run these situations I usually tell them "yes but you'll need to make a (such and such) roll". I might even tell them the DC.
That way they aren't complaining if they fail "you said we'd probably make it!"
It puts the onus on the players to gauge the odds.
Exactly. Don't surprise them with an impossible chance: no one would take it?
Sometimes (just not too often), the exact opposite approach can provide some variety: using the example of the fortress, you can use subtle hints to make the players believe that it is quite likely that complications could arise. But you set the probability to only 5% or so. On the way back with the object or prisoner, however, there is a 50% chance of a complication. The complication then turns out to be help from an unexpected source.
Interesting idea. They think "wow, that was easy" only to discover that trouble always awaits.
This is a fantastic video! I sent it to my DM who is brand new to Dming and falling into some common pit falls.
Glad I could help!
Great video! Putting obstacles in the players way and letting them come up with creative solutions is at the heart of highly imaginative, fun roleplaying. It's also what makes table top role playing games unique - the fact that you can do anything and try any crazy plan or idea.
Exactly. There are rules, but there are no rules. Mind blown.
Some knowledge and an edge makes the game more fun for players. This is one great reason to have multiple factions in a dungeon with one of the factions enlisting the PCs in a scheme to take something from another faction. The quest giver gets something they want. The PCs get the rest of the loot. And the complications also let the PCs decide whether to betray their quest giver or not. Are they grateful? Do they think there are possibilities for future cooperation? Is the possibility of treasure too tempting?
Really good point. Too often dungeon crawls become just that: an endless string of battles until the players run out of spells/cures/HP and have to retreat, then come back again. Why not embrace the idea that different creatures might collaborate to solve a mystery or defeat a more powerful enemy, then see where that collaboration goes, with all of the potential complications you list.
I always like to throw obstacles in the way of my players without coming up with a way to overcome that obstacle. It's my job to come up with problems - it's their job to come up with solutions. Why would I rob them of that agency and freedom? If the dice don't go their way, I'll even ask them to tell me how things went sideways. They'll often come up with better complications than I would.
Great idea! And you're exactly: player agency, come what may, is the secret to player engagement!
Great advice. I've been learning to adapt to player's ideas of late. Even, slightly modifying my plans to accomodate their ideas. Especially when they are talking about what they think the best way forward is. I don't want to hand them the end goal and upend everything; but at the same time I'm learning how to avoid railroading
That's the key: to creat a plausible narrative that takes into account the player's ideas and the NPCs likely actions and motivations.
Working on Saturday with a new video. 👍🏼
I hope it's useful!
Hey Kevin, great video as always! I normally down with anything, as long as it makes some kind of sense. On Reddit years ago, I came across a question for 2e cleric. This person asked if clerics got access to Lucerne hammers, since it states clerics are proficient with hammers. There was several replies all saying no. The gods wouldn't allow it, it has pointy parts, etc. This person who asked though about it, looked for a connection and put real effort into the question. My thoughts --> heck yes you get access and let's make it your spell casting focus too! To me, if anybody thinks about it, he or she isn't really asking for that much and it does make some kind of sense.
I have the perfect solution to the castle dilemma in your video. Hot air balloon, to bad there's no real stats for that (🤣)
Thanks Kevin you have a wonderful day!
Saying yes to player ideas is so much funnier than saying no! And especially when they come up with good ones after some research. As for the balloon, I might say yes, but remind the that a few well aimed cross bow bolts or one ballista shot could mean a long drop to the ground!
@@DDHomebrew Well you would think that but that's not how it works.
I went down a rabbit hole 🕳️ I didn't even want to go down. In my late night searches I did find some rules for balloons as long as the balloon has one hit point it can still fly. Trust me Kevin I didn't even want to know that, I just wanted a stat block 😆
Honestly I have enough information now just to be able to wing it, close enough 😉
@@mattnerdy7236 Then I would say yes, give it a try. Heh heh.
If the players are wealthy. They could hire a few dozen people to travel with the caravan. It may be in their best interest. If the loot, or merchandise was already aquired by the players. Meanwhile, the players may be able to afford themselves cover with the group of hirelings.
All great ideas!
I like your advice here, I wanted to make a point that you seem to follow without specifying it.
As the DM, when you're setting up the scenario, do NOT plan how the players are going to get through it. Figuring out how to succeed is the players job, not the DM.
In the scenario you presented when you (the DM) design the castle, think like the castle designer. So when you put in the sewers, how are you going to protect the castle from the sewers being used to infiltrate the castle. Are there gates or grates? Are they magical, alarmed? Are there glyphs protecting the choke points? Are there fixed or roving guards? Or are the sewers infested with were rats and it's too dangerous for guard patrols.
Further, how do they protect against teleport or similar spells? Or flyers? Invisibility is a thing, the guards are going to know about that and be on the lookout for it. Don't worry about making it impossible to break into, your players will come up with some plan of action you didn't think about and don't have proper defenses for.
To reiterate, don't plan what your players need to do, let them figure that out. Your life will be easier, your players can't "do it wrong" when you don't have a way figured out for them to do it right. When you've planned out what the scenario is, you will be well positioned to react to whatever hair-brained, ridiculous, off-the-wall, doomed to failure plan they go with and somehow pull off. In short, if you stick tot he DM role, you'll have more fun.
All those things you mentioned would be video 2 on this topic: how do you create problems the Ayers must solve. So in their research the players might discover that someone else did sneak in invisible once so now that's probably off the table. Can the players use a teleport without a good idea of where they're going? The key is to reward the players who try to think these potential obstacles through by giving them intel and probabilities.
@@DDHomebrew I'm not disagreeing with you, I just wanted to say that because some times people think I'm disagreeing with them when I'm agreeing with them.
A video on how to create problems the players have to solve is a great topic. My point here is simply that while the DM has to create the problem, they shouldn't worry about how to solve it. let the players worry about that.
As I said, this seems to be a philosophy you're following, I just felt it could stand to be stated more clearly.
@@fred_derf And I was agreeing with you! Funny how that works. In fact, when I first read your comment, I thought "fred_derf said this better game!" We have to say yes to ideas the players come up with to solve the problems we create, but those problems should include efforts by the NPCs to thwart possible solutions. If that makes sense.😭
Hmm. Just put a plague cloak on the giant and have him walk up to the front gate. The ruffians will flee. (movie reference for those that don't get it)
A very cool idea! Think Masque of the Red Death for another movie reference.
Thank you
Thanks for watching!
Awesome video. You always put out great content.
Thanks! Glad you enjoy my videos.
Great video, using this method you don't really need to worry about game balance. Let the dice decide
If you let the player's ideas affect the rolls, and let them know that complications can occur, you can let those dice roll!
do you stream games id love to watch yha run one,
I haven't yet. But we'll see.
As a GM this is what I am most profound at 😅
Deep thoughts. 🥱
@@DDHomebrew This sounds a little mean, KR. I did not have much to say to this topic other than "yes, I think this is a good thing to remember". And if you can say something nice about your own GMing skills I thing the opportunity may not be wasted 😅or have I misunderstood you? English is not my first language so I might miss a joke here and there.
@@Frederic_S So sorry Frederic! I was making a joke on being profound and a famous 90's TV skit here in the states called Deep Thoughts. Which of course you have no knowledge about! And I was really making fun of myself:as though I have deep thoughts.
@@DDHomebrew I suspected that 😅 Thank you for clearing up this misunderstanding. And thank you again for all the videos.
@@Frederic_S No problem! And thank you for being a loyal supporter!
Slap stick comedy, ..
Any time a player does a given social or physical important action, the crowd of witnesses roll mood reaction on stander or critical failure or succuss.
Such as tripping over one's feet during introduction, resulting in not competent to do business with, to court jester, or a laughingstock you just shake your head and best no spend too much of your time and attention with. . ( .. come on, those guys aren't competent enough to try to sneak in here ..) -- or are they ?
Or Pc slipping on a greased staircase, fish flopping swim down the steps that the guards lose composer and hit the floor laughing. So much for sneaking in and guard ambush.
Big difference in LoD combat and the guards play fighting the PC like out of some pirate movie.
Why you should not allow your players to be of neutral or chaotic alignment, .. they could bluff or diplomatic join with the monsters if bored. Or just to play double cross.
Great stuff here: all the possible social and roleplay interactions that can cause those unexpected complications that make stories great!