Who Wrote the Pink Letter? (ASOIAF Theory)
Vložit
- čas přidán 9. 06. 2024
- Hello everyone! Today I'm going over my theory as to who wrote the Pink Letter in #asongoficeandfire. What do you think? Is there anything I missed? What do you think of #houseofthedragon so far? Be sure to leave a comment, as well as like the video and subscribe if you enjoy. More #asoiaf content is on the way!
Also, apologies for some of the audio issues early on in the video, my mic is being strange this week. Working on it for next video!
My Twitter: / quinnthegm
00:00 The Pink Letter
02:15 Reading the Letter
03:55 Stannis as the Author
04:40 Mance as the Author
05:18 Melisandre as the Author
05:42 Ramsay as the Author
06:29 The Most Likely Candidate
07:05 The Case for Wyman Manderly
10:24 Why Wyman Wrote the Letter
12:12 Ranking Potential Authors - Zábava
Strong Belwas wrote it
Just before poisoning his own locusts.
@@QuinnTheGM they weren't poisoned....he just ate too many.
Nah man, ser pounce 1000%
@@GR-ym8po is that so? You must think Strong Belwas weak?
But who taught Belwas how to write.. I DID
Screw it, it’s time to come clean. I wrote the Pink Letter. I’m not letting Wyman or the Bolton boy take credit any longer
I think Manderly knew his going to Winterfell was a one-way trip, and he planned it as such:
- Roose pointed out he didn't bring any hostages, and none of the close knights and kin that were introduced in the Davos chapter seemed to accompany him.
- he was constantly eating like there was no tomorrow (last meals).
- he deliberately provoked the Frey's twice, insulting them so much it had to come to bloodshed.
- the soldiers/knights he brought might of been all older and/or not the best. During the melee 6 WH men die but only 2 Freys. And the only description of one of the knights was a "greybeard".
- if Frey pies are true, then he knows he is cursed for murdering a guest beneath roof, but doubly so for knowingly eating a slice of all three of their remains.
- he also might of snuck in Galbert Glover among his men to sow chaos in Winterfell by murdering various house's men as Hooded Man (no WH men though).
From what i ve seen the freys were no longer his guests because he gave them good bye gifts or something
Wyman killed the Freys after they left. He even gave them parting gifts, ergo they were no longer guests.
He didn’t break guest rite, he made that clear, he gave them guest gifts to end their visit and end their guest rite and then he killed rhem
you guys are right, even when I was typing it I was like 'well they did leave' like you've pointed out. I was thinking about the Rat Cook story though which Wyman himself referenced. That was a violation of guest right, so that's why I typed it as such, since the story and implications of it was clearly on his mind. I probably just should have said murdered.
oh, and one other thing I just thought of. Wyman >said< the three Freys left the castle with gift horses. Then we get the "many and more" vs "you and yours" argument between him and Hosteen or Aenys (forget which one it was). So clearly the Freys don't believe him they left unmolested. I mean, if you're gonna kill some guys, why bother letting them ride off? I know what you're thinking- witnesses, even incidental ones. The Freys are right though- much easier to just tell your soldiers to stick to a simple lie. Once the Freys are out of your control, anything can happen. Maybe they'd encounter a column of Lannister soldiers and screw up your plan. So maybe that's why I said guest right- that Wyman is lying and he's got Rat Cook on his mind.
Loudly giving the Freys parting gifts was such a flex on the red wedding
The gravy stains on the paper gave it away that it was Manderly.
Whas this mentioned in the books?
@@toonbartholome479 pretty sure it's a joke
Wyman is such an underrated character and I love this theory, I hope he plays a pivotal role in Winds!
He is so great in the Davos chapter with the wedding going on in the background. Maybe be my favorite chapter
I was disappointed he wasn't played by Ian Mcneice in the show 😫
@@bellaususfitzpinguidpalate3194 I think Martin could have played it.
Him and Doran are my favourite characters in the books, and they're both so terrible in the show lol.
Can’t believe I’ve never heard of the Wyman theory, actually makes a lot of sense
I’ve always thought “I want my bride back” is one of the two most shiver-y phrases in GOT- the other being “dead things in the water”.
Both letters were the most shivery things in the entire series,
The *seven* days of battle has always made me think that Manderly wrote it, coz is a religious significant number for a beliver of the faith
Good point! Especially given how scarce those are in the north.
There's only a way the battle could have really lasted seven days. If Stannis had managed to enter in Winterfell, and the battle had been between bastions and towers of the fortress. that way Stannis could have had access to the resources to not starve before.
I both hate and love the fact that I just got into ASOIAF. Amazing stories but now I’m in the same boat as everyone else just waiting 😂
Felt the same way when I first got into it, back in 2016! Hopefully your wait is shorter than mine has been.
Started reading in 2000. Was a college kid. Now I'm married with 4 kids. Welcome to the party pal.
Yo I finished ADWD last month, I feel your pain
@@ghostcat5303 I finished aDwD in 2011. Come talk to me about 'pain' when it's 2035 and you're still waiting for tWoW.
@@derekweiland1857 we will get something called The Winds of Winter before that, however much George himself contributes (for whatever reasons) is uncertain
I think it’s important to note in support of Wyman wanting more than anyone to reinstall the Starks that the manderlys are the only northern house that is loyal to the Starks out of love for helping them at their lowest and not fear like every other house that was subjugated by the kings of winter
The Mormonts were given Bear Island after the Starks took it from the Ironborn, so they too support the Starks for a similar reason. And we know they support Stannis.
I love the theories, but it would be hilarious if at the end it was just Ramsay who wrote it, George doing a little trolling
😂 I really hope so.
I think more important than who wrote the letter is what parts of it are true.
b y t h e w a y , t h e f r e y s d i d n o t h i n g w r o n g
@@Mephisto707such as?
@@IchibanOjousama Stannis being defeated, Mance captured and interrogated, Ramsay* saying he will attack Castle Black if Jon doesn't fulfill his demands.
If winds gets ever released, it will for sure crash the internet.
I think that with his health he is actually planning on someone else finishing the series and is currently working on the side projects and making enough detailed notes and guides for another author to pick it up and still get it right. Like Jordan and Sanderson.
I think it is actually a group effort and that is why no one person seems to fit all the clues. You've convinced me that Wyman could well be part of it. At the very least I believe Theon and Barbrey are involved in it.
Theon: I suspect that children building snowmen on the walls is a long tradition at Winterfell, likely effigies of historical heroes. Both Theon and Jon would have done this in their younger days. Theon is telling Jon that he can trust these people.
Barbrey: The seal on letter seems to be authentic but the wax it is impressed into is different in the way it is described. When Theon delivers Ramsay's scroll to the ironborn at Moat Cailin the scroll is never opened. Then an unopened scroll is noticed jammed into the mouth of one of the dead ironborn. Would Reek be bold enough to take it? But there were both Dustin and Rhyswells as part of the group. I suspect the seal was later carefully cut away from that scroll and attached to the Pink Letter which is why the wax is a smear rather than a hard blob.
I'm not sure about 1 single grand northern conspiracy because lady Dustin doesn't seem to be aligned with Manderly, and Robb ordered the Umbers to provide wood for a new Manderly fleet, then we see this new fleet through Davos. So the Umbers and the Manderlys are in bed together. Crows food is even outside the castle to collect Theon. My head canon is that Mance, the Manderlys and the Umbers did it. Maybe Mance wrote it on their behest because he's the only one who could climb up to the rookery secretly(he climbed the wall it would be super easy for him).
That's just my thoughts though.
I’m completely in agreement that there is not a grand northern conspiracy. However there are still some conspiracies afoot, most of in which Wyman is central figure
Before I watch the vid I just wanna say I think Mance wrote it not so much to get aid from Jon but to test his vows and convince him to take Stannis's offer to become a Stark. I think he was already confident in the Bolton's defeat when he wrote/sent it
Just watched it. Yeah it's a convincing possibility. I feel like I'd be a bit disappointed by the pay off of a reveal like that but if George is using the whole thing to draw attention to Wyman and he intends to follow that up by giving us tons of Manderly antics in Winds, I'm for it.
I like the theory. Wyman does get fairly close to ABLE(mance) asking him to sing brave Dany flin and the rat cook-- both of these being nights watch tales giving clues to us about manderly knowing the condition of the nights watch jon snow and stannis ....I asked myself who would sent the raven, because roose wouldn't just let anybody send ravens too and fro as they please, especially now that stannis is there.... I read that roose brought 3 maesters with him to winterfell to control the Ravens. He brought measter Henly from black pool, medrick from hornwood * , and rhodry from cerwin... manderly would be trusting of Medrick from when he occupied hornwood castle. Medrick would have access to the raven,the wax the knowledge of ramseys writing style, along with access to the information by way of Wyman, and mance to connect the pieces and enough loyalty to send the raven....he also had the opportunity to speak directly to Wyman to get the words needed to put in the letter when as he was the measter who tended to Wyman's neck wounds inside winterfell...
I cannot stress enough how much I enjoy every single Manderly and considering the way they operate on different things, pretty plausible for Wyman to be involved.
Wylla is a firecracker 🧨
Wyman feels like a very sketchy guy to me and I believe that he is playing a game of his own. Think about it from his point of view: he's already one of the more powerful lords in the North and his goal is to put young Rickon on throne, which might imply that he intends to be his "Hand" and lead the North through him. Not to mention, he also has a young granddaughter who he could wed to Rickon and thus create Stark-Manderly line to rule the North. He also seems to have a lot of influence over other houses in his region, but he isn't exactly loved by some other Northern lords (I recall from COK that Umbers and potentially some other aren't too fond of him and that Luwin and sir Rodrik were worried about the idea of Wyman marrying lady Hornwood after her husband's death). So, while I do believe that "Lord Lamprey" is playing a game of his own, I don't believe in grand Northern conspiracy as it sounds like a very non-Martin thing to do. While we all like to think that Northmen are brave, loyal, honorable and good men, truth is that they also have their Tywins and Littlefingers.
Anyway, great video!
Kudos for come up with a theory for the author of the pink letter I had not heard yet. I like it.
Renly's peach wrote it.
Bowen Marsh…they’d need to be at Castle Black OR have easy access to a Winterfell Raven. He could have received the actual last Ramsey letter and replaced it. He also read his previous letters and has their wax. A strong ally of Allister Thorne who hates the Wildlings and Jon. How would they figure out who Mance was? If they did they’d keep him for a hostage…But Mance was careless with his disguise at Winterfell and when fighting Jon. Winterfell has zero visibility and 60 feet walls.. you don’t put someone up there if you want them seen from below…. Do the Manderlys want Jon involved? They’re hoping for young Rickon, a true Stark son and easily controllable once in their care. Why would they want a bastard adult with command experience and a mind of his own dragged South. He has no ties to them, and they might have a hard time gaining favor with him since they’ve publicly worked with the Bolton, Freys and Lannisters.
Mance not knowing Ramsay's style of writing is actuality a point in favor of him writing it; We've seen letters by Ramsay sent to other characters, and the Pink Letter doesn't match his style.
I think I mention something similar - it matches his style of speaking but not the style of his other letters.
I really want that stannis crush the freys and the boltons
THE NORTH REMEMBERS
But that would be less impactful because Stanis is not a northerner. It needs to be an effort of the north.
@@Rune_Scholar Half his army are northerners.
@@robboaron And half are not.
House Manderly and Frey are the only factions present who are followers of the Seven, and none of the Freys seem devout. so the callout of a 7 day battle, if unlikely or exagerated points to Wyman.
Septon Luceon, who almost became High Septon before the High Sparrow's coup, is revealed in the appendices as being a Frey, but he seems to be more part of the corrupt and worldly old-guard Faith, so you are prolly onto something here
I've heard a lot of Mance theories on this, but I really like this one. Nicely put.
I always suspected it was a collaboration between Stannis, Theon and possibly Mance. But Wyman is an interesting choice, and you make a pretty good case, nice work 👍
I just hope we get the answer at some point 😂
You should've mentioned the people that did a mutiny right after the letter..
A castle has no secrets.. GRRM mentions that a lot.. even at castle Black..
Will you do a hooded man video? Its one of my favorite theories to speculate on
I’d love to! I’ll have to work on that.
I like that I have not heard this theory before but the verbage really shows a wildling wrote it, so most likely Mance.
Counterpoint being that the only thing Mance knows about the Night’s Watch at present is that they had something to do with sending the wildlings to rescue Arya. The focus could be calculated in order to best provoke the Night’s Watch into action.
@@QuinnTheGM thank you for doing the video and responding. You made me go back and read the Davos chapter with Manderly and the Jon where he fights Mance Glamoured as Lord of Bones. I think the line that convinced the the most that it is Mance is that the writer of the pink letter asks for the Wildling Princess (Val). Outside of a wildling or one of Stanis' men no one would really care about her and I'm not sure Manderly would even be aware of her existence.
It's possible that Mance wrote it, but on the direction of Ramsay, who presumably tortured him into doing it.
@@EndOfSmallSanctuary97 what's the point in the 3d chess there. Would Ramsay want to Jon to believe the letter or not?
Happy New Year
As Preston Jacobs has succinctly described previously, the pink letter was written by Manse Raider.
That’s a very convincing video, and it’s a big reason as to why Mance is my second place candidate! However I still think Wyman is more likely.
Why not both?
I think the true tell that Ramsey didn't write the letter is his use of the word "Bastard". A man who was born a bastard isn't going to call attention to that fact.
Ramsey is personally insulted by being called a bastard. Now that he isnt one and has be legitimatized, he knows from personal experience how insulting it was to him to be called a bastard. Why wouldnt he call jon that especially when he cant have it thrown back at him anymore
Yeah, but he was legitimized and most likely would love to throw the word bastard back at anyone else now that he isn't one.
IT WAS BOWEN MARSH !!!! Wymans a great shout to 👌
Yes! That just went click click as soon as I read the title! 👏👏 Why haven't I heard this great theory! It makes perfect sense at that!
My question is always "What is the primary prepose of the letter?". To me it's not getting reinforcements, drawing enemies in to kill or boasting. It's to get Jon specifically to come south, why. If it was Stannis just ask him to come. If it's Ramsey he doesn't really need Jon to come south, if he's truly victorious then he know where Jon is to go and kill and where Jenne and Theon are going. Wyman is odd to, he placing his bet on Rickon one way or the other, why would he need Jon and as a Northman know the responsibility of the Lord Commander. This is why I think it's Howland Reed, he would know the type of man Ned raised him to be so know Jon would have to be force to choose between duty and family (and that he would lean towards family), he know a request from him by name would be strange as well as he is trying to remain anonymous for now. Finally you as where he get the information on the details in the letter, he is the hooded man in Winterfell. This I formed off Preston Jacobs theory that the murders in Winterfell were all separate incidents with the only death he has no real explanation for being the Flint man. House Flint are neighbors of the Reeds and my guess Howland was recognized by him so Howland killed him to keep incognito. Being in Winterfell allows him to come by all the information in the letter and explain the discrepancies, as well as explains his reaction to Theon as Howland saw Ned as a brother and would be upset at Theon's actions. But you might still be asking why? Howland intends to reveal himself after the battle and along with what he hoped would be the arrival of Jon and explain to all the northern lords and Stannis the truth of Roberts Rebellion, Jon's parentage, Ned's lie and Robb's will. It would be an epic intro for a character readers have wanted to meet for years.
I've seen a few videos on the topic, but based on the way you describe it, I feel like it must have multiple authors, each contributing what they know of Ramsay to try to give the letter authenticity, as best they could .
The Manderlys are so loyal to the Starks you'd think that Wyman wouldn't have to concoct a BS letter to get Jon's attention. He could just be like "yo . . . Winter is here my dude and the North remembers a Stark must always remain in Winterfell"
This is a fun theory, but I don't see how Wyman would know about Mance and his spearwives. Wyman could know all of the traits of Ramsay's writing as he was involved in the Robb Stark's cause, his son campaigned with the Starks. Furthermore, for Wyman to write this letter, he would have to survive the Battle of Ice and get briefed on the happenings in Winterfell then write the letter. Jon seems to get the Pink Letter after the Battle of Ice has already happened, so it doesn't seem like it would help Wyman in that battle.
As daddy Preston said, there's a big fixation in the letter with the wildling submission ceremony and Mance's sister in law and child, Ramsay or Wyman wouldn't care or know about those things. The letter doesn't have to be sent after the escape as Mance was already planning it and knew what his plans were, get Theon and Jeyne to Crowfood. Even if the letter was written afterwards and Mance is captured, he could break out thanks to Whoresbane Umber. We know there's communication between Mance and Crowfood Umber, which is how Crowfood knew to be waiting outside of the Winterfell walls during the escape. This suggests Whoresbane as a intermediary between Mance and Crowfood. Also, Mance knows Ramsay from being in Winterfell's great hall for days if not weeks. Ramsay offers to make a cloak of someone's skin in front of everyone there and that exact threat is in the letter. The line about the cage being cold also points to Mance as the Wall has the frozen cells. Wyman or Ramsay probably wouldn't care or think of that when writing. One last point about Mance, his alias in Winterfell was Abel, an anagram of Bael, a reference to Bael the Bard, a wildling trickster figure, who stole a daughter of a Lord Stark through trickery. I think that Mance wanted to lure Jon out of Winterfell, then when most of the crows were gone, he'd show up at the Wall and steal Val and his son back without a struggle.
tl;dr I think Mance makes the best sense.
Your artwork is fantastic
Good stuff. I never even considered Wyman.
This is crazy and I love it hahaha you will become the new Preston
First time I hear this suggestion and dunno... I feel skeptical about this idea and just feel that it doesn't add up, so I still consider Mance to be the most plausible candidate.
I noticed that you skipped over some phrases that Wyman wouldn't have possibly known,
So thank you GM, now I have to go back and reread Dance again 😊😊😂😂😂😂😂
youre my current favorite ASOIF youtube account
Man u are killing it. Would u ever join an ASOIAF livestream?
I like the Wyman theory. I felt that Alliser Thorne wrote the pink letter. Even the first time I read it, it just sounded like him.
Good one! He certainly has the hatred for Jon. But I don't think he can possibly impersonate Ramsay like this without ever having talked to him.
@@Mephisto707 I just felt like instead of actually going on the ranging, Thorne travelled to Winterfell to ally against Jon. He's someone who could know Mance hadn't actually been executed and was just wearing a glamor.
But I have to re-read the series. I've re-read this part many times, but I'm a fairly new reader, and I've only finished the entire series once. Luckily since I'm a big Wheel of Time fan, this re-read will feel really really quick 😅
@@RiseeRee Interesting thought. Thorne was led by Dywen in the ranging, who is trustable by all accounts, so in order to defect, Thorne would have to kill or at the very least trick Dywen. Not impossible, indeed.
An idea for a video that I've never seen discussed anywhere. What does the world, and particularly Jamie, believe happened to the Three Kingsguard? Jamie mentions them all while lecturing his men, but makes no mention of their fate. Then later he is telling Loras about former Kingsguard who dishonoured their cloaks. Surely deserting their duties to protect the king, or at least his family, would count as just that. What does their last entry in the White Book read?
That’s a really interesting idea!
wait what 3 kingsguard?
@@seancarley2335 Gerold Hightower, Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne. Depending on what theory you follow they are either buried in Dorne (with presumably only Ned and Howland aware of) or they took new identities and went north to become Tormund, the Halfhand and Mance. Either way there should be more curiousity about their fate.
😂I’ve never seen that before that’s amazing explains all 3s love for lack of a better word for John snow
Did John kill Arthur dayne wow
Although Arthur quorin coulda just come over with his old buddies but maybe they fell out
Would these kings guard have known about the prophecy hence mance trying to get the wildlings south
Why would dayne prevent that
Wow amazing theory I love it
@@ice843 Actually the theory is that Arthur = Mance. And that they were all part of a conspiracy to prepare for the Long Night. The main proponents of the theory are a channel called Order of the Green Hand. They have videos explaining it, as well as some of their other theories that most people consider tinfoil.
I never believed the theories that the Pink Letter might actually be from Stannis or Mance Raydar, which seem to be the primary options. In my mind, it made sense that the most likely author was actually Ramsey, although a number of the assertions he was making were likely to be false. But I have to admit that I don’t think I had ever heard of the idea that the author might be Wyman Manderley. I can see the logic in that. This makes me want to go back and relisten to those chapters in my audiobooks. It is about time for me to do a thorough reread, as it has been a few years now since my last one. I have been holding off in the hope that I would do one when the announcement of the impending release of Winds occurred.
Is there any textual evidence that Wyman knew that Mance Raydar is in Winterfell? I think the only people that know are Jon Snow, Melisandre, Mance himself, the 6 spear wives, probably Theon. I think Mance mentioned in the letter is the key detail. Thoughts?
I think there’s pretty strong evidence. Think of the snowmen, representing conspirators in Winterfell. One of them was Barbary Dustin, who we know was investigating the crypts. We know Mance was doing the same thing at the same time. Furthermore, I think Mance being captured is an accurate portion of the letter, and if that were true Wyman would definitely know Mance is there.
I agree that there are conspirators. It just didn't feel right that they were involved in sending the letter. The letter felt more like desperation. But Wyman is certainly interesting. BTW, I love watching your videos. Keep up the good work.
Wow! Never heard of Wyman. Strong case! 👍
For Wyman to write it he would either have to know Mance was the singer in Winterfell (implying he likely did get flayed by Ramsay) or else hatch the scheme with Stannis somehow or perhaps Stannis himself wrote it which would seem a bit underhanded for someone so just and yet would make the most sense if it's not written by Ramsay.
Well argued sir
You seem to forget that characters are pretending to be Ramsey, so they are capable of including erroneous info that they know that they expect Ramsey not to know (e.g., the way kingship works north of the wall). You can't discount info just because the true author would know better; all that matters is what that author thinks Ramsey would write. Still super interesting but I think you skipped most of the arguments others have made for other candidates.
Smart lad. Didn’t think of that.
5:56 ramsay is the one. the twist is the battle of ice has not been fought yet, he is just very sure of the freys and manderly win
Great points and evidence you've presented to substantiate your claim. I have to ask though, how can you come up with this very rational and logical theory, but can't see all the holes in R+L=J and not recognize all the evidence in the books that supports N+A=J?
Great video
I guess you missed out on Lady Barbrey Dustin. She insisted Theon to take her down to the crypt. She was possibly there to check on the missing swords. She is probably scheming with Manderlys to bring Rickon back.
Very good ideas! Although, I think Mance Rayder is the only one who knows about all the facts mentioned in the Pink Letter. It is just my humble oppinion!
Hi , I 'm not English , so sorry for any mistakes .
In my opinion the mystery of the pink letter is a false mystery , in the sense that it is not something we will have the surprising revelation of but we will simply see how it is born in winds .
The focal point is the timeline, Theon's chapter in Winds, and so probably other POVs like Asha (the stolen excerpt) need to be placed before Jon's chapter in Adwd where the letter is received.
When it is written, the circumstances under which it is written and why are more important than who wrote it.
Now let me explain the context : Stannis wins against the Freys but he can not take Winterfell not even with Jon Snow 's wildings , there are too many people in Winterfell , even with the doors open it would be a massacre , so he manages to make the Boltons believe having lost and being dead ( some Karstark or Big Walder could be reliable false witnesses for the Boltons ) , at this point the Boltons have no reason to stay at Winterfell but they have a big reason to leave it , which is to get Arya Stark back before Jon Snow sees her and reveals the deception to the whole north, that's why it wasn't Ramsay who wrote the letter (there are a thousand reasons but let's focus on the main one, the Boltons are finished if you know that this is not Arya, furthermore it makes no sense to ask someone something by notifying him ) .
Who benefits instead of creating a second battlefield in the open field? to Stannis and his allies, when the letter is written however they will have talked to each other so they will have all the necessary information that otherwise any possible writer would lack if he were alone.
The material writer in my opinion is Theon because he uses the term Reek, the sealing wax is the sealing wax from the letter received from Asha and now in Stannis's possession, reused, hence the pink scrawl.
The boltons have already left for Castle Black, Stannis has already taken Winterfell and must create a second army, forcing Jon to break his oath and keeping Jon's survival hidden.
In short, Jon vs Bolton, in an unspecified point between Castle Black and Winterfell, with Stannis arriving behind the Boltons.
But how would Wyman know about Mance at all? Only way is if either Mance was caught and exposed OR Mance has teamed up with Wyman in secret within Winterfell and they both wrote the pink letter together.
It is said in the books that Manderly took a lot of time to arrive to Wintefell, i think that when he did Davos already had got his Stark boy back and Wyman meet Stannis in the Battle of Ice already a ally (without Stannis even knowing it) and after that they lie to Ramsey about the outcome of that, hance the pink letter
Is BBR Dustin a part of this plot? Once I saw someone saying she could be the one who wrote the letter.
Couldn't Alleser Thorn have wrote the letter as a way to test Jon and see if he'd break his vows again? Jon immediately broke his vows so they knew then that they'd have to put him to death. The bit about not harming Jon or the Crows seems particularly interesting to me. Jon either keeps his vows and gives up sheltering wildings and stannis' lot (The wildlings would surely follow Val) or he breaks his vows and has to suffer consequences. I reckon its all just bait to create a solid excuse for Jons enemies within the nights watch to remove him.
I've seen the big theories for who wrote it but not that Wyman did it(or jon or dany? lol) and I gotta say this is now my fav one it just makes a ton of sense
Do a video on the theory that Sam Tarly is the prince that was promised
Holy shit! There are 2 Quinns in the ASOIAF fandom?!
Stannis also isn't a liar he would just straight up demanded his assistance
I still believe Mance is the one who wrote the letter, not Wyman. As Mance has more to gain from Jon riding south than all the other candidates. He has a lot of knowledge about the castle of Winterfell and would be able to move around unseen in the largely abandoned and snow burried castle. As well as knowledge about its inhabbitents through his informants the spearwives who have been 'enterntaining' the men inside Mance knows that if Jon should ride south his brothers of the nights watch would kill him. Jon being the only thing that keeps the wildlings and the watch from killing one another, Mance would be able to return to the wall, reveal that he isn't dead, regain leadership over the wildlings, take over the wall and save his people plus become a legend for destroying their enemy once and for all. His people would be save south of the wall, protected by the magical barrier which has been his goal since the start. Plus all the points said in this video also fit Mance or are speculations, a lot unsupported of could'ves and maybes in my opinion.
1. He is a vengeful schemer
2. He knows Jon is loyal to Winterfell (so? he would come south and then what?)
3. He knows about Mance in Winterfell (How?)
4. Calling Val a princess being a misconception from southern lords (Mance knows this)
5. Has knowledge about Ramsey's style (Mance could've as well)
6. The term 'Magic sword' being used (a weak speculation in my opinion)
7. Knows Theon and Jeyne have escaped (probably the whole castle would know about that)
I don't see any reason Manderly has for wanting Jon to ride south. Only to remove a claiment to the seat of Winterfell or have him claim it because Davos didn't return with Rickon. Jon would not bring any relieve to either side as a night's watchman. If he were to ride south to intervene his brothers would (and did) kill him as a deserter.
I don't really find the points against Ramsay as the author to be that convincing. All they do is speak to me that the Pink letter was written in a hasty manner, rather than the deliberate manner of the previous letters.
- A "smear" instead of a "button" of wax? The seal was carelessly applied and smeared in the process
- No other names/signatures? No time to gather a bunch of important people and have them co-sign your blackmail
- No skin attached? See previous point.
The handwriting is never mentioned to be different than before. Jon knows Ramsay's huge, spiky handwriting from his previous letter. The fact that it's not remarked upon speaks to me more to the fact that it's the same rather than different. In any case, we can't really judge something that isn't mentioned.
The different language ("black crows") and the heavy focus on wildlings could be explained due to Ramsay torturing Mance, as is mentioned in the letter.
It's obvious that Ramsay has been fed some bad information. Probably by Stannis (the fake death, perhaps other details of the battle) and maybe by Mance as well. Maybe Stannis and Mance are cooperating, maybe Mance has his own ambitions. Either way, I don't think the actual author of the pink letter was ever supposed to in question. Rather, it is the content of the letter and where that information came from that is supposed to be what we're skeptical about.
I also find Ramsay's motivation for sending the letter to be shaky at best. It's unlikely that he would know that Jon and the Watch were specifically responsible for Mance's presence, and given the fact that the Night's Watch has never participated in southern wars, it seems doubtful that Ramsay would feel the need to pen a letter specifically designed to circumvent Night's Watch intervention, when no such intervention has occurred in the past.
@@QuinnTheGM Thanks for responding! I assume Ramsay found out about Jon's involvement in Mance's presence in Winterfell either by A. torturing Mance and extracting that information from him or B. simply deducing it through the basic facts that Jon had publicly lent shelter to Stannis and announced to the world that he had burned the King-beyond-the-Wall (as he stated in the letter). From Ramsay's perspective it would seem that Jon would not be okay with Ramsay as Lord of Winterfell and is secretly aiding in his downfall while hiding under the supposed Night's Watch neutrality. Ramsay's tactic of intimidating Jon based on (probably false) information about the battle against Stannis, seems like logical motivation to me.
My question is what was Jon supposed to do . If he burns it and dose nothing he runs the risk of the boltons marching on castle black , if he gives in to thier demands he has to fight the queens men and potentially the wildlings to deliver Val or he has to meet this threat by marching on winterfelll
Wyman Manderly is so badass. Its not extremely lame at all that they gave his ultra cool character moments to literal children in the show.
Enjoy the content, but please consider refining the audio with a pop filter and/or compression to keep volume consistent. For some sensitive to audio stimuli, could be difficult to listen to without rage quitting
Sorry about that! It’s something I’m actively adjusting for and working on.
Never even considered this!
I don't think that Wyman will stay at Winterfell during the battle of Ice, he may not sit a horse but i could see him having a carriage or sled
The last we hear of it, it’s specifically mentioned that his men are leaving the castle, explicitly no mention of him leaving. Plus my thought is even if he did leave, he could’ve always sent it prior to leaving, or even have brought a maester/raven with him as Stannis did.
@@QuinnTheGM I like the idea of him being the author, I just don't see him putting himself in the precarious situation of having his troops betray and help stannis in the battle of ice while staying behind with the Lord he's betraying
Considering he just got his throat slashed open by Hosteen Frey I don't think we'll see Wyman anywhere near a battlefield.
@@DominionSorcerer fair point, I don't see Wyman riding into battle or anything, but I could see him in the commanders tent. I will have to consider this further. I am having a hard time reconciling him betraying Ramsay but staying in winterfell unless he has some sort of underlying force there to protect him. If Ramsay hears of the deception and Wyman's men are with stannis force, who will protect their Lord from the Bolton's wrath before the walls are breached?
I could see Wyman and Mance collaborating somehow. Maybe Wyman tries to help him escape or shelters him, but that fails, so in a mad dash they concoct the pink letter and send it off as Ramsey's men close in on them.
Interesting idea, but I still think Mance is the likely culprit. The biggest reason why I think this is because of everybody who could've wrote the letter, Mance knows Jon the most intimately and would know how to twist the proverbial knife and how to press Jon's buttons. When they first met, he asked him, when Mance was at Winterfell, "Did you see where they put the Bastard?"
Mance KNOWS that Jon being Ned Stark's bastard is a sore spot. Reminding Jon that he's a bastard, regardless of his rank, still angers him. The letter calls Jon a "bastard" several times. He NEEDS him so angry that he'll abandon his vows. Jon is the only man who can lead the wildling army to Winterfell. There is nobody else in the north who knows Winterfell like he does. And, whatever happens next, Winterfell needs to be liberated, and Jon is the closest thing to a "Stark" that's available at the moment.
There's also the fact that Stannis tried to bribe Jon with legitimizing his name and making him Lord of Winterfell in exchange for helping him. Though this was something that Jon dreamed of for his entire lifetime, he stood by his vows, confident that Stannis, alongside the northern mountain tribes would be enough for Stannis to liberate the castle. However, once he gets word that Stannis had failed, it reminds Jon that he's the last man and only hope for the North. Possibly, in his eyes, he has no other choice. And I believe that Mance knows this as well.
Wyman, for me at least, doesn't fit the bill because he really doesn't know Jon all that well. Most lords don't really trouble themselves with getting to know the bastards of their wardens. He seemed more interested in sending Davos on a possible wild goose chase to mysterious island full of cannibals, unicorns, and cannibal unicorns to find Rickon. Why invest so much secrecy into finding Rickon when Jon is closer and has an army at his disposal?
I just don't see Wyman as the writer of The Pink Letter. Hell, I could be wrong (it happened once before, but that was a technicality.) It's definitely an entertaining idea though. Keep up the good work, dude. I dig it.
By God I think you're right!
There is also the possibility that Ramsay did write the letter, but someone at Winterfell or the wll opened it, added things, then redid the wax.
Ramsay is not in a position to torture someone and use their blood as ink. If Stannis did fake his death and Mance was captured, then most of the letter can be true. Or maybe Ramsay is lying about some things and being as harsh as possible because he has a lack of self control.
If he didn’t capture Mance, Mance could've been the one to tamper with the letter
Btw the Boltons used to claim current Manderly lands when they were Red Kings.
Very well reasoned and I'm on this conclusion. Formerly on the Mance-train, but these arguments makes Manderly a far better candidate. Especially because of the words used. For example, Mance knows that "lightbringer" is a hoax. So why would he mention that Ramsay has it to John? "Red witch/whore" is what Mellisandre is called in whispered rumors. Mance have met her and therefore for him she is a person and not a boogeyman. Her name or "red priestess" should be what would come to his mind. This, and the other similar cases could be explained by Mance writing like he thinks Ramsay would do. But as you say, then he failed miserably.
Wyman on the other hand has only heard the rumors. Rumors of a magic sword, a red witch, a wildling princess and therefore the tone of the language used fits very well. And if this is the case, we know that when Winds of Winter begin Mance and his warriors has been revealed. Not said though that they are dead or captured. But the identity of Mance and the number of warriors is known.
I love the Manderlys and how they play their own edition of the game of thrones. Not to sit on said throne, but to change the board. Gives us as readers a reminder that even though the great houses shapes the realm, the minor houses shapes the great houses.
Isn't Manderly out of commission after being attacked by Hosteen? Would he even be able to write the letter?
I can live with (and have come to accept) ice and fire will not be finished.
It'd be nice if he told us who wrote the letter.
I never once considered Wyman. I love it!
I like this idea, but when would Manderly have time to write and send this letter? He was injured by Hosteen before Theon fled from Winterfell, do we know if he's in any condition to even write and send a letter? Or did he write the letter before Theon's escape?
And wouldn't Manderly know enough about Ramsay to know his method of torture is flaying?
We can't forget that the timelines are all mixed up right now and that Wydman took a long time to go to Winterfell meet the Boltons. I think that Davos have already rescued Rincon and delivered him to the northmen, making them loyal to Stannis (which will help in the next battle)
This is the most compelling case for someone besides Ramsay writing the letter but honestly I think the evidence that Ramsay didn't write it at all isn't particularly strong. I kind of hope that it was Wyman who wrote it tho because its the most narratively satisfying answer.
I think you are right ✅
A convincing argument but the letter is vague enough to be written by anybody GRRM wants. But why make jon come south?
Mostly because Wyman is facing a difficult situation regardless of the outcome of the battle of ice. He’s likely heard that Jon seems to take after his (supposed) father Ned, and would likely think that Jon would help Rickon retake Winterfell.
George R.R. Martin wrote it
If Wyman did write the letter can you imagine his reaction when he found out it’s basically what got Jon killed,and that hes not getting any extra help from the nightswatch to end the battle
Maybe the "pink letter" was written by the dude from the "Iron Bank of Bravos."
What are your thoughts of Unwin Peake in Fire and Blood? The way he is written about is very suspicious in my opinion. No character seems to be slandered as much as him.
He’s certainly an interesting character, my thought is we’ll likely get a lot more insight in Volume II, should it ever be published.
@@QuinnTheGM Very true. Here's hoping Volume 2 arrives soon. Have you thought about what houses maester's were born into? Gyldayn strikes me as a Manderley due to the Peake Manderley rivalry
Some members of The Watch wrote it to get Jon to turn so they could stab him
Good theory 👍 I still think it could be Alister Thorne (possible he went to Winterfell and joined up with Ramsey). But Wyman does have a better motive you're right!!
I think Alister has a very strong motive: to test Jon's loyalty. Jon fails, and he engineer Jon's assassination. But does he know Ramsey well enough to impersonate him relatively convincingly? And how would he know about Theon and Jayne escaping?
Why did Wyman refer to the nights watch as crows? He should know that that is not a term that Ramsey would use.
He should also be aware of the Bolton's pension for flaying people So why focus on the heart?
I feel like this letter has two very likely authors.
Number one is mance rayder. He's testing Jon's loyalties to the watch like he did when Jon joined the wildlings. He is in winterfell, theoretically could have written the letter. The ink dab looks rushed compared to others Ramsey has done so it was likely a rush job.
He also would have good reason to know any of the things revealed in the letter.
He wouldn't know how long a battle between stanis and Ramsey should take.
Number two would be Melisandre. However the reasons you gave in your video are very valid.
It’s probably mance. The only people who refer to nights watch as crows are free folk. Mance can read and write since we Abel his name at winterfell is an anagram of bael.
Hey QtGM, I know people blame Bloodraven for a lot, but do they blame him ENOUGH?
In other words, has Anyone ever blamed the madness of the Mad King on Bloodraven?
Did he use his green dreaming to drive Aerys insane, so that the Prophecy could happen?
Maybe Davos wrote the letter?! Or maybe the man from the iron bank, can recall his name just now. They have a large enough sum of money invested in stannis for him to be running around the north in the middle of winter. Certainly enough to have motive and he’s met with most groups up there so could have all the information or enough to make it up and get his result
My main man Tycho Nestoris. I kinda don't think it's him cause why would he mention anything about Reek in the letter?
Davos is in Skagos how can he write that letter? And that is totally out of character for him.
I suppose the only question that remains is...why? Why would he want Jon to come down to WinterFell? His plans explicitly involve Rickon.
Bowen Marsh. For the watch
I believe The pink letter was written by Ramsay, but during its transmission, the message was modified by other people such as Wayman Manderley and perhaps Mance also.
I like that idea a lot!
@@QuinnTheGM Thanks, and I also think that maybe the song of the bear and the princess symbolizes to Daenerys and Jorah Mormont, or maybe Jorah betrays Daenerys for gold. Betrayal for gold is one of Daenerys' three betrayals, and I have a theory that the three eyes that Arya will close are Cersei's green eyes and the eyes of Catelyn and Jon Snow after he comes back to life and the brown eyes are Jon Snow's eyes or her eyes and she lives inside her wolf until she dies
Tommen wrote the pink letter 🐷
He’s too busy advancing his anti-beets agenda.