Steel or Titanium for a Gravel Bike?
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- čas přidán 28. 02. 2024
- Hanging out with Nolan from @TheBikeSauce answering your gravel related questions.
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I ride a 1977 steel road bike that I converted to 700c x 40mm as my gravel bike. Between the skinny tubes, wide-ish tires, and quill stem it rides super-smooth on all but the chunkiest gravel.
For those who don't already know, the purpose of sliding dropouts is supporting single speed bikes and internal gear hubs without the need for a chain/belt tensioner.
Just seems to be a new name for horizontal dropouts.
It is and they are largely unnecessary as well @@rob-c.
Recently finished my Ritchie Outback build, was inspired by both of your reviews and by Nolan's outback build. I built it around an existing wheelset and the Growtac Equal Mechanical disc brakes (like Nolan), which made it somewhat complicated given various compatibility issues. But got it done eventually (which a little help from my friendly LBS). Love the bike, love the brakes. Thanks for the inspiration!
i wonder what is the compatibility issue?
Really wish more of the DIY crowd would try building their own bamboo bike frames. It's cheap and the ride is awesome for gravel. Plus, there is nothing quite like the experience of building your own frame from the ground up. And from a material that basically grows exactly the way it is used in the frame. Compliant and yet strong.
The experience of riding a frame built by your own hands has over the years expanded my enjoyment of riding. I didn't expect that mostly because I design and build other objects for a living. But the simple fact of seeing the process through in all its stages and knowing the end result is just as tried & true as steel or titanium is quite something. I literally have no hesitation around the bamboo frame when it comes to more rough adventure type riding etc.
My current frame has 7+ years of road and unpaved mountain riding on it and the frame is just as nice to ride as on day one! Plus, these days there are so many 1X component options, methods of jig assembly and sourcing of parts that it really is quite accessible.
I have a titanium mountain bike hardtail that I bought new in 2018 for $1100 with broken and damaged parts. The Sram hydraulic brakes were broken and I replaced them with New TRP Spyke mechanical disc brakes,180mm rotors, and Shimano Deore Levers. The handlebar had lots of scratches so I replaced it with a 90mm riser bar. When I inflate the 27.5 x 2.8" tires to 40 psi the ride on gravel is rougher than 2.8" tires should feel. When inflated to 30 psi, the ride is the smoothest I've felt with any bike on gravel.
On Mountain and gravel bikes, tire volume affects ride comfort much more than frame material. However, I do notice that between my sisters Specialized Sirrus with an Aluminum frame and my brothers Salsa Colossal with a titanium frame, the titanium frame feels a little more plush and compliant. Wheels and tires (28mm) are the same on both bikes.
If the price difference between aluminum and titanium is not that significant, I would choose titanium because of its corrosion resistance. I also like stainless steel mountain bikes, but it seems these are even harder to find than titanium.
I have an Otso Fenrir stainless. It comes rigid, but is suspension corrected for a suspension fork. It’s pretty pricey, but still cheaper than the titanium version… enough to not want to spend that much
Regarding ruining a great gravel ride by racing reminded me of something bike farmer said about commuting. "Why ruin a perfectly good bike ride with work in between?"
Bike farmer
Great conversation.
Internal routing for me is one of those things I did once. Coming from an electrical background and dealing with routing wire through conduit, it wasn't the worst thing in the world, nor the most challenging.
I'm not fiddling with swapping out brakes/shifters all the time. I don't know too many people that do. The only people I know that do this are people who are testing things all the time (like these 2) or people that work in a bike shop and are constantly "trading up" components because they have access to discounted parts. Even then, there are ways to use the old cables/hoses to pull the new cable/hose through the frame.
I do like how it looks, but one of the biggest things I like is just how much easier it is to get all the dirt off the bike when I'm done riding. The less places for sand and debris to fall into a spot to hide the better.
Sliding drop outs are nice for when changing chainring sizes without having to resize your chain.
Thanks for admitting about the Titanium. I had carbon, aluminum and titanium - and all feels same. I love the look of titanium, and have two titanium bikes now, but that’s just me. However I upgraded my wheels and tires and the bikes feels different/better. ✌🏾
Titanium frames manufacturer here, tires are largely "the feel", overwhelming basically all other aspects
Sold my Ti road bike after I rode my Ritchey Swiss Cross which is my go to bike now. The secret sauce is real with Ritchey.
I switched my CF Canyon Grail for a Swiss Cross this season and I'm loving it!
Great discussion. Thanks. Much food for thought.
Russ, totally agree on split frames being unnecessary for flying with a bike. I like the benefit of being able to discard the cardboard box and not have to worry about the suitcase, the box can also fit my bikepacking bags, etc, and the cost is usually around $100 each way. Checked baggage would be $50-80? With steel bikes property packaged cardboard is way to go. And the only way if you are flying to point A and returning from point B. BUT, split frame however is a HUGE plus for European Trains and buses. Not every route and type of train/ bus accepts bikes - far from it, in Spain and France especially, unless it’s a breakaway. ALSA in Spain for example also requires the bike to be wrapped. Pro tip - bring a large roll of kitchen plastic wrap, and maybe a tarp with come cordage.
I’m unlikely to ever take a bike on an airline flight. However, if you saw my 64cm Straggler frame, you may reconsider the lack of utility of frame couplers.
Check out Japanese 'rinko' style touring. These are bikes designed to pack up in a bag you carry along.
Agree on frame material - it does not matter. It's in the tires and if you're like me, I also have a carbon seat post, handle bar and wheels. The tire on my Lynskey Ti gravel bike is a 48mm (tube), so coupled with the carbon stuff, its a dream to ride on any reasonable surface. I did the same with my Kona Libre (AL frame), and both a super great to ride, but different geometries - so different riding styles. The only reason I don't own steel is because they require more frame maintenance here in humid Florida.
damn Nolan just busted the whole industry jargon of "vertical compliance"! very interesting. Have you seen the ultraromance video where he talks about fork compliance? he mentioned that the main stresser in the fork is in the crown, not the bend. so the crown works a lot to make the front end compliant.
@bikesauce, all your comments sound legit bro, when it comes to bikes you are smarter than most of us thats obvious!
Question on cheap steel (say, 4130) vs fancy steel (say 853 or Spirit). Is fancy steel really useful, or even appropriate for a heavy bikepacking/ touring bike?
All steel has the same stiffness (207 Gpa), but strength can be improved by treating it, for example 853 is a treated 631. So an identical tube of 631 would have the same stiffness and weight as 853. 853 would be stronger at the welds, but that’s it.
So with this we go into varying of the diameter and wall thickness of tubes - to manipulate stiffness and weight of the frame. This makes a lot of sense for a road / gravel bike to shave of a kg or 2.
But choosing overbuilt large diameter tubing of fancier thinned out 853 would be lost on a loaded tourer, no? Or am I missing something?
Arguably a double butted 4130 would even be better as it’s easier to weld/ repair than 853, in the event it’s needed on a tour.
Cheers!
@@Macuhdohnadadoh thank you for sharing! I also had a couple of rough crashes on my surly steamroller 4130, which I use in the city, and it’s not dented, extremely durable. I appreciate fancy steel and thin tubing as much as the next bicycle enthusiast, but I will only use 853 for my road/ gravel bike. I’m building a bike packing pinion rig with a custom frame and fancy components (onyx hubs, grawtec, etc) but the custom frame I’m gonna use is a 4130 powder coated one. Initially I wanted fancier steel and a nice paint job, but realized for the intended use it will be a downgrade. Titanium while nice is also more dent prone than steel, same as aluminum.
Old bikes are great, always fun to ride, they bring back memories, and make you appreciate modern geometry that much more. I absolutely love my Divinci Hatchet AL. I don't know what else you could expect from a ride.
There is very little vertical flex on any frame material do to the triangled design. So, if you hit bumps being completely 90 degrees from the road, you will not feel any difference. The flex in steel is more of an angled and horizontal flex. Having said that, you are rarely at a complete 90 degrees while riding, but still not enough for the steel to absorb much of the chunk.
What makes the most difference, besides suspension, is the tire size, tire thickness, and air pressure.
I loved the giggles you two had regarding my quirky shower thought 😂😂
Uno Electronic Friction Drivetrain coming up 🤟
Awesome podcast! 😎👍
The compliance chat! - The quill stem compliance is real! Not enough people mention this.... I'm really lusting after a Stooge right now because the insane rake they put on their forks looks super flexy and comfy.
Regarding the tyre width chat: Here's a controversial viewpoint here. Wider isn't always better. We're getting into outlandish stuff here, but bear with me.
You wouldn't want a fat bike tyre on a gravel bike, right? Those are definitely draggy and slower. So where's the line? Somewhere between 40mm and 120mm? Not very specific! (or Gravel Specific, if you like 😉)
My last bikepacking bike was running 2.8" Tyres. Amazing over roots and rocks, but wow did it suck to ride on paved road with them..... Even hardpack was pretty draggy....
Yup, Same goes for ultra wide small diameter dirt drops. I use 25.4 or 26mm Nitto RM13 Dirt Drops and Noodles 48-52cm. Theyre heat treated and plenty strong for technical rocky trail beatings.
I also use up to 62cm wide 31.8 dirt drops on a couple bikes.
Combined with a nice tall 1" quill stem I get a good amount of compliance. An old school skinny tubed, lugged frame helps as does nice fat cushy tubeless tires. Tires and sensible low pressures probably make the biggest difference of all. 33- 42mm tires on my mixed road, 'cross and gravel bikes. No more than 2.4" does fine for the xc endurance riding and bike packing I do in very remote areas on my MTBs.
@thebikesauce I find the Sparwoods pretty ok. I don't get the feeling you do and they run fairly quick in my experience. I also have the Rutlands (47mm) and they ride pretty similarly. Great conversation today!
Was the fork carbon on both the Ti and Alu frames you tried, Nolan? No Ti fork? I can see/feel a steel rim brake fork flex but not disc brake. I did see a ti disc fork flexing on the Ritchey meetup ride. I think it was a bear claw
I ride Steel by choice. My rides get miles off pavement. Carbon breaks. I also have 2 aluminum. DIVERGE andnTrek crockett. Had my fill of broken carbon frames. Steel has soul! I started on steel several hundred thousands of mile ago. STEEL Ritchey road logic. Carbon madone stays on my wahoo trainer. . Nice video
If you are keen to experience something new: fit up a pair of CushCore inserts and evaluate those. I’m loving them in my Straggler w/ 40c tires.
Nice aluminum wheels, tpu tubes, high quality tires, decent aluminum frame or “nice” steel frame with grx400 or 600 2x is where the smart money is. Few choices in US, have to go custom or at least buy aftermarket wheels. I’m seeing around $4200-4500 nice steel and could probably do with $3500 alu.
We sell Ti starting at 1195. 4-5k is full carbon &Ti components with electronic drivetrain not sure where you are shopping!
Thanks for answering my question about carbon forks!!! My exact fear is bikepacking bags or tires rubbing against it over time. Additionally, not being able to put any real weight attached to the fork is both silly and scary that just a few pounds can destroy it.
For daily ridden bikes used by non racers, (especially abusive uses like bike packing) carbon doesn't make much common sense.
Keith Bontrager once said "Light, strong, cheap", you can only choose two.
A high end carbon race frame costs about $400 to produce in Asia. But thats not what theyre sold for!
The problem with carbon as used in the larger bike industry is:
1. Quality control. QC is mere lip service in the larger bike industry. A cheap frame sticker applied.....
2. Carbon's failure mode in abusive usages, even simple minor crashes.
3. Marketing BS and everyday rider's impractical obsession with light weight.
Carbon may be OK for racing, yet few cyclists actually race.
Carbon is an extremely strong material that 'could be' made strong enough to carry heavy loads and endure abuse. BUT misinformed consumers are convinced weight is the be all, end all attribute. Most folks are ignorant in regards to QC and manufacturing.
Im a retired machinist and mechanical inspector. Ive helped build carbon structures and many other materials to the highest quality and engineering standards on this planet. Nobody's fooling me.
My custom metal frames last for numerous decades. Im a dedicated underbiker.
We sell Ti backpacking first with no load limit
@@justineseiferth8010 Whats the fork youre making?
Ive got a wealthy bike repair customer who's been bike packing almost non stop worldwide for 5 years or so on a Jones Ti fat bike. Those industrial design forks trip me out and the handling is superb for a bike with 3" plus tires!
Yeah, he's worn out all sorts of tires and components. Every time he comes home, I do a frame up overhaul. I get a birds eye view what this sort of abuse puts a bike through. His frame, fork and h'bar are fine, if a little scratched up.
Ive built myself a low trail fork with Kaisei blades. Kaisei makes some of the lightest and thinnest steel bike tubing on earth. I designed the fork for a dirt rando/ light bike packing rig. I dont weigh it down much with a bunch of gear I dont absolutely need to survive. The point is distance and speed on this sort of trip. This fork has to be the most comfortable and stable Ive ever owned. Ive beaten the hell out of it. I forget its not the suspension fork on my hardtail!
I have an Outback Breakaway. Just Like Nolan’s bike but the Breakaway model. It comes with a case -standard size soft side suitcase with all the needed padding. It is NOT a lot of work to break down or build up. Certainly not more work than building up any bike you pack. On a 1x like mine there are 2 cable couplers and screwing them back together takes, like, 30 seconds. Once again you’re dismissing something you’ve admittedly never tried.
Also, the Crust bike Nolan saw was a stock model Lightning Bolt singlespeed breakaway that Crust sold for a little while - Ritchey licensed the Break-away couplers to Crust for this model.
I've tried and traveled with a Moulton which functionally acts the same with a split in the frame and four cable splitters.
Rodeo Labs spork carbon fork that is rated at 27 lb load capacity for the legs and is ok for a low rider rack
narrow wide dinglefront setup! 😅
‘A Metaphysics of Ping Pong’ - good read, as a HS philosophy teacher - it was fun.
Back at school we had prefects, as punishment they would set essays with titles like "the sex life of a ping pong ball" Not the easiest subject for a 9 year old!!!!.....
The amp knob shifter goes to 11, yeah?
As a german I feel offended. I hate butterfly bars. And yes I have a Trekking bike. They can look cool if done right. I imagine mine does at least.
Don’t you think horizontal dropouts nailed it, is that what the Riv has?. I have track bikes and the AC space horse (your era Russ), and a single speed Davidson with campy dropouts. With no thruaxle experience I’m just like, 1989 was it for those still tinkering.
Finally swapped out my last carbon fork. I just had something in the back of my mind that just didn’t trust it.
Hudsky vs Surly Bridge Club?
People using hip-packs or hydro vests are just backpack curious. One tearful Thanksgiving, they'll finally confess that, "No, I don't have any bottle cages and I don't want any. I hate everything about bottles and to tell you the truth, I don't want a hundred little bags stuck all over my bike just to hold a flat kit, a jacket and a damn energy bar! It's stupid!! The fact is I love my backpack, and I don't care what you think about me wearing one ANYMORE!!"
if you have multiple bikes then titanium is your end game bike
Of course I can't prove this but I have the feeling if Ti was the same cost as steel, it wouldn't be as desired. I think steel (frame, forks, bars) and aluminum (rims, hubs, rest of the parts) have everything covered. Yes, Ti doesn't rust, but how real of an issue is that? I still see plenty of 70s ten speeds rattling around, and I believe they were mild steel.
And they are (mostly) very rusty inside. I just rehabbed a pandemic purchase steel frame someone got from a famous online 'pro' store which was an absolute disaster inside despite being just a few years old. If you ride in the wet and /or cold, there will be rust
@@justineseiferth8010 I'm sure it can happen, but I wonder how often frames structurally fail because of rust?
Rusty steel frames can be an issue in more humid climate. I remember picking up an old steel frame when I was a kid in the 1980's. I sand blasted it only to discover how rusty it was inside. Didn't want to take any chances and abandoned the project
@@natursyndk I know it definitely can be an issue
I think this has a lot to do with where you live and where the bike is kept. Not sure I would have a steel frame living near the coast. Stainless would be okay, but I’ve ridden several times in Florida and always come back with rusted steel parts after just a few days of being down there.
There is also internal frame protector you can spray inside the tubes.
Cannondale Made in USA frames for me !!
As for frame material, I'll go with Mike Burrows and his Bicycle Design: in search of the perfect machine.
Russ have you made it to Begur, Sa Tuna, Ullastret yet? If you haven't enjoy!!
I'm still waiting for carbon prices to get cheaper , My price may be one hundred forty and carbon is still a mystery material in my world
I wish you guys didn’t dodge the steel/ti question. Surely it would be possible to have two identical bikes, one in ti and one in high quality steel (Columbus or whatever) each bike custom made with same dimensions for same riding purpose, and compare the ride of each. Maybe what you should have said is “we’re not qualified to answer that question because…”
How would you make them identical though? Steel and Ti are materials that have very different properties. It would be tricky to choose tube diameters and wall thicknesses that would create frames of identical stiffness and flexibility, especially if the steel bike has a steel fork.
The point wouldn’t be to create identical stiffness and flexibility - the point would be to compare stiffness and flexibility. Lots of frame builders would be able to choose the correct tubing- that’s what they do.
@@michaelmann6482 Ah, so when you say identical bikes you mean identical geometry and fit. Got it.
Correct. And purpose built for same weight rider and same style of riding.
To be honest. Listening to you completly geeking out is kinda weird cause your themes are completly random and have no order at all.
It’s jazz not an army march.