i rode the Santa Fe Chief between Oklahoma City and Houston many, many times from the early 60s until amtrak happened. i remember the Porters remarking that we were going 100 mph many times. these are the memories of a child, as accurately as i can recall them.
I'm sure you are correct. The Santa Fe took good care of that train. 100 mph was not uncommon on the Chiefs. I rode the Panama Limited north out of Memphis to Chicago in 1976--the early years of Amtrak, and we did achieve over 90 mph, and now , "The City of New Orleans" is limited to 80MPH on the same route, about 50 years later.
@@robpinon309 i recall the porter telling me that speed limits had to do with track maintenance quality. Again, that was 50 years ago. When the train got to Houston, it took an extra hour to swing a wide path around the farthest outskirts of the city, literally crawling on lousy track. Freight trains didn't require the quality of track that the passenger trains did, therfore freight trains could go faster. i remember some epic freight derailments around houston. i recall that after Amtrak happened that the old Santa Fe Chief "covered wagons" were used for hauling freight. i remember seeing them, oil streaked and dirty, like fine race horses relegated to hauling coal before they lay down and died, worked to death.
I grew up in the 1960's when the passenger trains were being cut. It was interesting how they cut these trains. They wouldn't cut the train all out. First the diner would go. Then the lounge car. Then the sleepers were eliminated until you had only one or two coaches. I watched Santa Fe do this to the Grand Canyon Limited until they sheared the name of the Grand Canyon Limited and only referred to the train as number 23 or 24 with two coaches and baggage car only. It managed to keep a thru sleeper between LA and Barstow only which got transferred to the San Francisco Chief in Barstow. Not even a cafe car was left on the Grand Canyon Limited. So by 1969, the once spectacular Grand Canyon Limited was known only as #23 or 24 with two lonely coaches, a baggage car but no sleeper or cafe or lounge. Southern Pacific took away the sleepers and diner to the Sunset Limited in 1966 and by 1970 had reduced it from a daily to a three times a week train. Amtrak has kept the Sunset Limited running as a three day a week train. By 1968, Southern Pacific removed their silverware from whatever dining cars they still operated offering only paper plates and plastic utensils or actually informing customers to bring their own utensils. I think the reason the railroads slowly dismantled the trains rather than cut them all out was because the ICC had strict rules about which trains could be cut and the ICC had to approve any cuts in service made by the passenger railroads. The ICC got so many complaints about Southern Pacific's drastic cuts that Southern Pacific was ordered to restore the sleepers on the Sunset Limited in 1970 and to keep the Lark between LA and SF running despite Southern Pacific's determination to cancel it in 1966. The Lark finally got approval for cancellation in 1968. I watched in dismay as all of this happened under my very nose as we rode trains quite frequently in the 1960's.
Thank you for the interesting history. I didn’t know the Texas Chief took the southern route through Ottawa Junction southwest of Kansas City only because Amtrak’s Texas Chief and Lone Star took the northern line through Topeka-no doubt to provide some service to communities that would otherwise have none. To satisfy my curiosity I looked up the Texas Chief’s schedule in a 1950s Official Guide, and sure enough, it took the southern route (as did the Chief, Super Chief and El Capitan), while the San Francisco Chief followed the northern line.
Wichita - Topeka and Kansas City is a major corridor with nothing. Topeka has middle of the night service today one train! Billions have been spent by backward Kansas on the Turnpike between these cities. So the demand and travel is there. But so are the kick backs, back room deals , black mail of the oil lobby against rail. The Missouri trains stop 50 miles short of Topeka and lay over in Kansas City! What ? And Missouri has to pay for the service! Unlike states in the money pit Northeast Corridor. It's all free and federal for them. Even being under 750 miles !
The Tulsan was high-speed too, it'd roll 90mph in between Cherryvale and bartlesville. Kind of hard to imagine when you see the right of way that SK&O owns.
How do you like the lies of the OK DOT about putting back passenger rail in the Will Rogers corridor? They never even helped Iowa Pacific a private company do it. Some DOT ! Talk about high speed rail then not spending a dime on it for years. They stink.
The Chief was the evening departure from Chicago. That resulted in a single night between CHI and LAX, the only train that provided single night service between the two cities. I believe at the schedule meant only 5 consists were required while the Elcap-Super chief and SanFrancisco required 6 consists and the Grand Canyon because it's slow 68 hour CHI-LAX scheduled required 8. The Santa Fe would have preferred to keep the Chief and eliminate the Grand Canyon that was a serious money looser while the Chief floated back and forth between a loss and breakeven. The Grand Canyon was an $8M money pit. The Santa Fe would have added CHI-LAX cars to the San Francisco to the SF Chief and used the Grand Canyons afternoon time slot into LAX. The Santa Fe would later make a similar offer to the ICC when Amtrak came along. Their first choice was to continue operating their trains if the could cut everything but the El Capitan and Super Chief, the San Francisco Chief, Texas Chief and San Diegans. But sadly the ICC said no. As for the Texas Chief it operated in two sections as late as 1969-70 during times of peak ridership. The biggest problem the big transcontinental trains was the loss of connections. Passengers from the East Coast who wanted to travel west of Chicago had fewer and fewer good choices. The Pennsy was wretched and the NYC had completely given up. That left on the B&O, C&O and for a time the Erie Lackawanna as choices. Santa Fe sales agents steered their customers to EL trains east of Chicago as the two RR's had a good relationship and at least for a time the EL trains provided a good level of service. At Kansas City things really went down hill with the Frisco doing all in its power to kill its trains and the Rock Island is well the Rock Island. Even the Kansas City Souther finally gave up after the Post Office massacre.
Thank you for another seminar on our star topic, TH. Question: Is the shot at 8:40 Wichita, Kansas? The pic of the Amtrak Texas Chief had to be at least May, 1973 as the Sear Tower seen looming was completed that month. Your mentioning of the extra fare situation again got me to thinking. In my old timetables I see extra fares generally on trains west of Chicago as opposed to east. Do you find that, too? Also, other than the opportunity to grab a couple of extra bucks by the railroads, what was in it for the passengers? I think sometimes pillows in chair cars, maybe extra legroom in 48 and 52 seaters as opposed to 60 and 72s. Chair car attendants were employed, too, generally. Your thoughts? Only rode the Texas Chief under Amtrak and it usually sported Santa Fe cars exclusively if memory serves. Eastbound into Chicago I recall some awesome French Toast served at last call for breakfast out of Streator, Illinois. Cheers.
I usually get the pictures from Pinterest or Wikipedia and there isn't always a description. So I don't know too much about them. There also aren't that many good photos of these old trains. Some of them are the size of a postage stamp and are pixelated to hell. I haven't done too much digging into the Eastern trains, so I'm not sure how often they changed extra fares. I'm not sure if they were a railroad charge or a Pullman charge or did it depend on the train? I know sleeper charges were an extra fare of sorts since Pullman ran the sleeps on most trains. So I think on some trains the coaches were in a similar set up as the sleepers. Since most of the extra fare trains I've looked into had some sort of Pullman run train or was a flagship train of a railroad.
@@thetrainhopper8992 It wouldn't be much of a surprise if the extra fare was just plain old snob appeal action, something to separate the "middle" class from the "working" class. America had some hard social lines drawn back in the post-WWII period (not to say we still don't).
Santa Fe only wanted their old equipment on the trains. Other railroads cars were bad ordered to get them off line. They lost control when the Superliners came. In a deal to kill 8 popular routes. But they were allowed to downgrade lines to freight only 60 mph and less with Amtrak off them. I rode Santa Fe too .
@@osmanjeffrey NO, it was extra revenue for the railroad. They did have slower locals you could use. It also controlled demand for them. Just like Amtrak does today with sky high fares for very popular sleepers. They don't fit the corridor only 1970 business plan Amtrak uses still today. A Penn Centrai plan! In the 21st century.
In a deal to get Superliners, 8 train routes were knocked off by Amtrak. The Lone Star the former Texas Chief was running sold out still as a fast overnight flyer Chicago - Kansas City to Oklahoma City and south to Houston. . To kill the business on the line so Santa Fe could downgrade the route to 60mph or less. Amtrak picked it to be knocked off. The cut off around Topeka for the Southwest Chief could be downgraded too as that train was routed via Topeka. ( later Galesburg to Chicago on the Santa Fe would go too) Amtrak only put THREE CARS ON IT. With a all reserved train , if it was sold out you were left behind! One conductor told me a group of 149 people showed up to ride. Amtrak put them on a group fare all on ONE ticket. Which they counted as ONE customer! These counts were used as evidence at the hearings to pull the train off. I rode the Chiefs often working in Kansas City at the time,
Appreciate the effort; however, please note that you do not have the correct Texas Company names. GC&SF is not the Gulf Coast and Santa Fe. Please update your presentation and show that the company was the Gulf, Colorado and Santa Fe and in addition mention how the Panhandle and Santa Fe was also involved in the route you are presenting.
Please stop fabrication train names, service and the historical inaccuracies of decisions by management. Your offer to check schedules and so forth prior to publishing information.
i rode the Santa Fe Chief between Oklahoma City and Houston many, many times from the early 60s until amtrak happened. i remember the Porters remarking that we were going 100 mph many times. these are the memories of a child, as accurately as i can recall them.
I'm sure you are correct. The Santa Fe took good care of that train. 100 mph was not uncommon on the Chiefs. I rode the Panama Limited north out of Memphis to Chicago in 1976--the early years of Amtrak, and we did achieve over 90 mph, and now , "The City of New Orleans" is limited to 80MPH on the same route, about 50 years later.
@@robpinon309 i recall the porter telling me that speed limits had to do with track maintenance quality. Again, that was 50 years ago. When the train got to Houston, it took an extra hour to swing a wide path around the farthest outskirts of the city, literally crawling on lousy track. Freight trains didn't require the quality of track that the passenger trains did, therfore freight trains could go faster. i remember some epic freight derailments around houston.
i recall that after Amtrak happened that the old Santa Fe Chief "covered wagons" were used for hauling freight. i remember seeing them, oil streaked and dirty, like fine race horses relegated to hauling coal before they lay down and died, worked to death.
I grew up in the 1960's when the passenger trains were being cut. It was interesting how they cut these trains. They wouldn't cut the train all out. First the diner would go. Then the lounge car. Then the sleepers were eliminated until you had only one or two coaches. I watched Santa Fe do this to the Grand Canyon Limited until they sheared the name of the Grand Canyon Limited and only referred to the train as number 23 or 24 with two coaches and baggage car only. It managed to keep a thru sleeper between LA and Barstow only which got transferred to the San Francisco Chief in Barstow. Not even a cafe car was left on the Grand Canyon Limited. So by 1969, the once spectacular Grand Canyon Limited was known only as #23 or 24 with two lonely coaches, a baggage car but no sleeper or cafe or lounge. Southern Pacific took away the sleepers and diner to the Sunset Limited in 1966 and by 1970 had reduced it from a daily to a three times a week train. Amtrak has kept the Sunset Limited running as a three day a week train. By 1968, Southern Pacific removed their silverware from whatever dining cars they still operated offering only paper plates and plastic utensils or actually informing customers to bring their own utensils. I think the reason the railroads slowly dismantled the trains rather than cut them all out was because the ICC had strict rules about which trains could be cut and the ICC had to approve any cuts in service made by the passenger railroads. The ICC got so many complaints about Southern Pacific's drastic cuts that Southern Pacific was ordered to restore the sleepers on the Sunset Limited in 1970 and to keep the Lark between LA and SF running despite Southern Pacific's determination to cancel it in 1966. The Lark finally got approval for cancellation in 1968. I watched in dismay as all of this happened under my very nose as we rode trains quite frequently in the 1960's.
I love the Texas Chief.
Thank you for the interesting history. I didn’t know the Texas Chief took the southern route through Ottawa Junction southwest of Kansas City only because Amtrak’s Texas Chief and Lone Star took the northern line through Topeka-no doubt to provide some service to communities that would otherwise have none.
To satisfy my curiosity I looked up the Texas Chief’s schedule in a 1950s Official Guide, and sure enough, it took the southern route (as did the Chief, Super Chief and El Capitan), while the San Francisco Chief followed the northern line.
Wichita - Topeka and Kansas City is a major corridor with nothing. Topeka has middle of the night service today one train! Billions have been spent by backward Kansas on the Turnpike between these cities. So the demand and travel is there. But so are the kick backs, back room deals , black mail of the oil lobby against rail. The Missouri trains stop 50 miles short of Topeka and lay over in Kansas City! What ? And Missouri has to pay for the service! Unlike states in the money pit Northeast Corridor. It's all free and federal for them. Even being under 750 miles !
The Tulsan was high-speed too, it'd roll 90mph in between Cherryvale and bartlesville.
Kind of hard to imagine when you see the right of way that SK&O owns.
How do you like the lies of the OK DOT about putting back passenger rail in the Will Rogers corridor? They never even helped Iowa Pacific a private company do it. Some DOT ! Talk about high speed rail then not spending a dime on it for years. They stink.
@@intercityrailpal I'm more annoyed that the OTA wants to make people homeless for an unneeded turnpike.
The Chief was the evening departure from Chicago. That resulted in a single night between CHI and LAX, the only train that provided single night service between the two cities. I believe at the schedule meant only 5 consists were required while the Elcap-Super chief and SanFrancisco required 6 consists and the Grand Canyon because it's slow 68 hour CHI-LAX scheduled required 8.
The Santa Fe would have preferred to keep the Chief and eliminate the Grand Canyon that was a serious money looser while the Chief floated back and forth between a loss and breakeven. The Grand Canyon was an $8M money pit. The Santa Fe would have added CHI-LAX cars to the San Francisco to the SF Chief and used the Grand Canyons afternoon time slot into LAX.
The Santa Fe would later make a similar offer to the ICC when Amtrak came along. Their first choice was to continue operating their trains if the could cut everything but the El Capitan and Super Chief, the San Francisco Chief, Texas Chief and San Diegans. But sadly the ICC said no.
As for the Texas Chief it operated in two sections as late as 1969-70 during times of peak ridership.
The biggest problem the big transcontinental trains was the loss of connections. Passengers from the East Coast who wanted to travel west of Chicago had fewer and fewer good choices. The Pennsy was wretched and the NYC had completely given up. That left on the B&O, C&O and for a time the Erie Lackawanna as choices. Santa Fe sales agents steered their customers to EL trains east of Chicago as the two RR's had a good relationship and at least for a time the EL trains provided a good level of service. At Kansas City things really went down hill with the Frisco doing all in its power to kill its trains and the Rock Island is well the Rock Island. Even the Kansas City Souther finally gave up after the Post Office massacre.
Thank you for another seminar on our star topic, TH. Question: Is the shot at 8:40 Wichita, Kansas? The pic of the Amtrak Texas Chief had to be at least May, 1973 as the Sear Tower seen looming was completed that month. Your mentioning of the extra fare situation again got me to thinking. In my old timetables I see extra fares generally on trains west of Chicago as opposed to east. Do you find that, too? Also, other than the opportunity to grab a couple of extra bucks by the railroads, what was in it for the passengers? I think sometimes pillows in chair cars, maybe extra legroom in 48 and 52 seaters as opposed to 60 and 72s. Chair car attendants were employed, too, generally. Your thoughts? Only rode the Texas Chief under Amtrak and it usually sported Santa Fe cars exclusively if memory serves. Eastbound into Chicago I recall some awesome French Toast served at last call for breakfast out of Streator, Illinois. Cheers.
I usually get the pictures from Pinterest or Wikipedia and there isn't always a description. So I don't know too much about them. There also aren't that many good photos of these old trains. Some of them are the size of a postage stamp and are pixelated to hell.
I haven't done too much digging into the Eastern trains, so I'm not sure how often they changed extra fares. I'm not sure if they were a railroad charge or a Pullman charge or did it depend on the train? I know sleeper charges were an extra fare of sorts since Pullman ran the sleeps on most trains. So I think on some trains the coaches were in a similar set up as the sleepers. Since most of the extra fare trains I've looked into had some sort of Pullman run train or was a flagship train of a railroad.
@@thetrainhopper8992 It wouldn't be much of a surprise if the extra fare was just plain old snob appeal action, something to separate the "middle" class from the "working" class. America had some hard social lines drawn back in the post-WWII period (not to say we still don't).
Santa Fe only wanted their old equipment on the trains. Other railroads cars were bad ordered to get them off line. They lost control when the Superliners came. In a deal to kill 8 popular routes. But they were allowed to downgrade lines to freight only 60 mph and less with Amtrak off them. I rode Santa Fe too .
@@thetrainhopper8992 If you do a video on Erie Lackawanna name trains you can use my slides free with credit to me. I only have about 40 I guess.
@@osmanjeffrey NO, it was extra revenue for the railroad. They did have slower locals you could use. It also controlled demand for them. Just like Amtrak does today with sky high fares for very popular sleepers. They don't fit the corridor only 1970 business plan Amtrak uses still today. A Penn Centrai plan! In the 21st century.
The "cafe" car was actually a lunch-coumter diner.
In a deal to get Superliners, 8 train routes were knocked off by Amtrak. The Lone Star the former Texas Chief was running sold out still as a fast overnight flyer Chicago - Kansas City to Oklahoma City and south to Houston. . To kill the business on the line so Santa Fe could downgrade the route to 60mph or less. Amtrak picked it to be knocked off. The cut off around Topeka for the Southwest Chief could be downgraded too as that train was routed via Topeka. ( later Galesburg to Chicago on the Santa Fe would go too) Amtrak only put THREE CARS ON IT. With a all reserved train , if it was sold out you were left behind! One conductor told me a group of 149 people showed up to ride. Amtrak put them on a group fare all on ONE ticket. Which they counted as ONE customer! These counts were used as evidence at the hearings to pull the train off. I rode the Chiefs often working in Kansas City at the time,
Appreciate the effort; however, please note that you do not have the correct Texas Company names. GC&SF is not the Gulf Coast and Santa Fe. Please update your presentation and show that the company was the Gulf, Colorado and Santa Fe and in addition mention how the Panhandle and Santa Fe was also involved in the route you are presenting.
The name was correctly the Gulf Colorado and Santa Fe. Please get the history right.
Please stop fabrication train names, service and the historical inaccuracies of decisions by management. Your offer to check schedules and so forth prior to publishing information.