Imperial 'Elites' of Oxford University (Oxford & Empire)
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- čas přidán 9. 05. 2024
- Special Thanks to Uncomfortable Oxford which is a student lead organization at Oxford providing historical tours in the city. Some of their tours focus on the ‘uncomfortable’ imperial legacy of the University of Oxford (hence the name). They were kind enough to provide me two tours, free of charge, in order that I could learn more about this topic for this video. I highly recommend booking a tour on their website if you’re interested- www.uncomfortableoxford.co.uk/
Sources for all my videos are in the bibliography of my scripts available for free to download on my Patreon- www.patreon.com/mlaser?filters[tag]=script
My Patreon- / mlaser
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where I just upload random videos from game-plays to vlogs and more.
Creative Commons Videos used in this video
- • A SHORT CINEMATIC | DU...
- • 🏴 Oxford - beaut...
- • Aerial views of Edinbu...
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Rhodes Must Fall protest video rmfoxford.wordpress.com/
Music comes from Epidemic Sounds www.epidemicsound.com/
0:00 Introduction
2:16 Early Empire and the University
11:15 University Finances/Imperial Investments/Artifacts
14:41 Oxford Judges & the Empire
18:38 Imperial Ideology & the University
24:45 University as the Educator of Imperial 'Elites'
29:57 Oxford University Press & the Empire
31:34 Oxford and Southern Africa
36:32 Colonial Students' Experiences at Oxford
39:25 21st Century Oxford
40:20 History vs Memory
45:10 End Card
_________________________________________________________________
Thank you to my Duke tier Patreons
-Sahni
-DaneToast
-Daniel Garza
-Brandon Weller
-Rare Rirorie
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#empire #history #oxford #universityofoxford #legacy #britishempire #british
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! Extra Information & Clarifications !
Many overarching themes of the Oxford's connection to the British Empire I talk about in this video could, just as easily, be applied to Cambridge, but since this video focuses on Oxford. I mention just Oxford in the video.
2:04 I am consciously avoiding talking about the colleges instead of the University as a whole because from experience many people don't understand the Oxford college system and it would take too long, and will unnecessarily confuse people, if I tried to explain it.
3:31 I couldn't find pictures of other heads of the colleges of that time.
3:14 Roger Marbeck of Oriel college was also the Chief physician to Elizabeth I.
3:29 Bodley also founded the University library called the Bodleian library today.
6:11 I say 'at least on paper' because parts of Ireland still weren't under full control and Scotland had its own parliament, meaning it had its own autonomy to a certain extend, until the acts of union in 1707. This is also why I showed the map of Britain the way I did.
9:45 My mistake, Edward Maria Wingfield didn't go to Oxford his father did. John Smith was associated with Oxford through book publishing but wasn’t an alumnus.
11:40 Here the colleges kept their own accounting books which were also separate from the university's books making the whole thing even more complicated to track. Again I am talking about the university as a whole but, of course, there are differences among the colleges. Some invested far more into colonial companies or received far more donations from imperialists than others did. However, every single college wealth came largely from holdings in England as I stated in the video.
12:01 Here I am talking about the University, and its colleges, as it pertains to the Imperial period. Not to its latter 20th and 21st centuries operations. Looking at the University's finances in the latter 20th and 21st centuries is far more complicated as getting access to them isn't as simple as for historical documents. Also, regarding student fees, which weren't tuition in the modern sense that only came in the 20th century, nor were they mandatory in some cases, they accounted for less than half of the universities income and were mostly just to cover the day to day operations.
14:12 Here I am talking about not how the University itself acquired these documents, which we mostly know, but how these documents got acquired from their original places in Mexico or China. Usually the history of these documents is recorded for the first time when they come into the Oxford's collection and so only mention the person who sold them or donated them to Oxford not how they might have gotten acquired.
14:43 Other Oxford alumni that I came across during my research that made money from colonialism whether directly or indirectly were, William Fiennes 1st Viscount Saye and Sele, John Hampden, William Levett (dean of Bristol), William Waller, John Pym, Robert Harcourt (explorer), Sir John Boyd 1st Baronet, Benjamin Booth, William Trumbull, Henry Bennet 1st Earl of Arlington, George Villiers 2nd Duke of Buckingham, Anthony Ashley Cooper 4th Earl of Shaftesbury, William Bouverie 1st Earl of Radnorare, William Grenville 1st Baron Grenville, Sir John Boyd 1st Baronet, just to name a few. Due to the nature of the University there are many many more.
15:15 This is not a picture of the actual Nandakumar, a picture of the actual nandakumar doesn't exist. It is just a visual placeholder to act as a tool to explain the story. Kind of like Jack Rackam (www.youtube.com/@JackRackam) uses unrelated images to explain a story about someone we don't have a picture of.
16:35 Hasting was later impeached for corruption but in the end acquitted.
16:53 I meant judges not jurists.
17:36 Historians debate whether Mansfield actually supported the abolishment of Slavery or just followed the rule of the law which in his eyes did not support slavery. For example, Mansfield did try to get the Smoresett's case thrown out of court before he was forced to make a ruling. Some historians argue this was because he knew he would have to make a ruling against slavery and so was trying to avoid making that ruling. He, however, did adopt a daughter born to slavery which he later freed. But, he also was very cautious about what his ruling actually meant. He wasn't completely convinced his ruling abolished slavery completely in England but only acknowledge that people could not be forced to be property in England which are technically two different things. During his entire life Mansfield seem to have skirted between seemingly pro-slavery and anti-slavery sentiments, so it is hard to tell whether he was an abolitionist or not. There's also an argument to be made that his seemingly pro-slavery actions where made from peer pressure and to keep his status among the aristocrats who where often pro-slavery.
17:49 The Somersett's case was also technically only legal in England but the ruling was later expanded to Scotland due to a different case.
18:44 The most obvious example of the racialization of the world in the 18th century, and it's connection to slavery, is Edward Long's 'History of Jamaica' (1774).
19:04 Here I use the words English and British as synonymous because they often were used that way in the past. For example, the quote from Gibbon I show is from a speech where he used both words synonymously. That is also why it later was just called the ‘white man’s burden’ in order to more thoroughly encompass all the ‘white races' not just English. As Jennifer Ridden states 'Britishness was consistently characterized by English dominance ... English identity plays a dominant role within Britishness, that Britishness is Englishness "writ large"'. History, Nationhood and the Question of Britain, p. 198.
It also depends on who you asked. Some Scottish people thought of themselves as Anglo-Saxon or Germanic, some as Scottish, and some as British. Some even had multiple identities, and some that identified as Scottish could have also been Imperialists. It was all very fluid.
19:06 ‘The Contrast. British Liberty, French Liberty. Which is best?’ (1792); British Museum.
19:32 William C. Woodgridge: Modern Atlas (1835)
20:40 “From the Cape to Cairo. Tough the Process Be Costly, The Road of Progress Must Be Cut.”, Library of Congress.
22:29 The law of abolishing slavery in the Empire was past in 1833 but it didn't go into effect until 1834, so slavery was not abolished until 1834.
24:00 It was the Universities’ Christian Mission to Central Africa not Africa as a whole. It also wasn't just Oxford but couple of other English Universities that were all together involved in this enterprise.
27:51 I miss spoke, Curzon did not close the Forestry School, he only supported it's closure and relocation to Oxford.
R. Hornsey, ‘This College Has Been Established at Cooper’s-Hill’, Imperial Engineers: The Royal Indian Engineering College, Coopers Hill.
The Indian School of Forestry was part of the Royal Indian Engineering College at Cooper's Hill. Even though an Indian funded institution it was relocated from India to England in 1868 and later to Oxford in 1905.
28:02 The Forestry building behind me was completed in 1950. Before then the Oxford Forestry school was located in various buildings around the city.
30:07 The University Press initially started in the Clarendon Building and in the Sheldonian theater and moved to Walton Street in the 19th century.
30:42 And Rudyard Kipling made some poems and illustrations for the book.
32:58 Rhodes ones stated that 'Just fancy this, those parts [of the world] that are at present inhabited by the most despicable specimens of human beings what an alteration there would be if they were brought under Anglo-Saxon influence.' Tidrick, Empire and the English Character : The Illusion of Authority, pp. 49-50.
33:30 He was acting against the orders of the Colonial Secretary Joseph Chamberlain who was the de facto representative of the British government to the colonies. Hence my statement that he went against the orders of the British government.
34:37 Initially this act only applied to Africans living in the Glen Grey area but later was expanded to the entire colony.
36:39 Sorabji is a bit of a controversial figure in India because she was against Gandhi's campaign of civil disobedience, but her later carrier was not the point of this passage.
39:24 The video is too long already, and so I had to cut decolonization, but if you want to know more about Oxford and decolonization, read the Chapter on Kenya in the aforementioned 'History of Violence' book.
40:18 Whether the University of Oxford succeeded in these changes is a question for another time.
42:41 I am deliberately using the word 'English' here because, even though undoubtedly all the countries of the UK partook and benefited from the Empire, today, Irish, Scottish, and Welsh people often try to foster their own independent national identities which are often separate from that of the English and the Empire. i.e. you wont see many Welsh people coming to the defense of imperialists like Rhodes. Therefore, it's mostly English people, but not just, that today identify with the Empire of old.
It is a crime that this video did so poorly. By far one of the best on this channel.
Thank you :) It was very disheartening when the video did so poorly, especially considering how much work I put into it but, at least people who did watch it, like you, found it good, which is very nice.
@@MLaserHistory keep going bro. I found you from a recommendation. Yoire growing
@@MLaserHistory Give it time, one day this will blow up like Historia Civilis and fellow history lovers will be back binging the backlog of content :)
Awesome to see you on location and on camera. Great job with this!
Gotta appreciate the level of clearness you have in your presentation
I did my master's in medieval history at Oxford. I'd been counselled against it by my tutors at Warwick, but I figured "how bad could it be"? Well, turned out that, for all the incredible resources at my fingertip in the city / university / college and for all the undeniably brilliant people around me, they were right. The way history is done at Oxford seems barely to have changed in the past 50-80 years. I was told the undergraduate history curriculum in particular has barely changed at all in the past century. It sure felt like it, too. All the history people seemed to be doing there was Rankean diplomatic history, imperial history, or if you were very lucky something on, say, the rural English economy. All the interesting stuff came from visitors rather than faculty.
When did you do your Mst? I actually did the same medieval history Mst last year, they have reformed it 3 years ago so it's more up to date with other masters programs across the country, but since it's quite a recent reform the faculty was still trying to figure out how it would work exactly and look like. They're trying to reform stuff but as with anything in Oxford it just takes a lot more time than at other places. With that said, I think you come to Oxford for the resources and the people rather than the curriculum and same thing applies to the undergrad.
@@MLaserHistory I'm glad to hear that, and you're right re: reasons for coming to Oxford. I did my MSt in 2016/2017 so a good while ago. I recall Julia Smith, then the new Chichele Professor of Medieval History, talking about reforms -- I'm glad to hear that seems to be going somewhere!
As someone currently doing an Oxford undergraduate in History I can confirm that there are reforms being implimented slowly to change the nature of the history course - its now far removed (I would argue) from such a characterisation, although its still quite British-focused.
Isn't that all they need to know to rule the Country?
I wish we could have swapped places. One of my closest friends did history at Oxford and was given far, far, far more freedom to cover topics without using post-colonialism or any other critical theory. I despise the restrictiveness of Warwick's critical theory obsession. A person could complete an undergraduate at Warwick and, were they to know nothing of their field aside from what they were taught, believe, because of the chosen lecture topics and the frequency with which they are presented, that Europe was minority European or some form of non-heterosexual for most of modern history. This is not to say that it should not be discussed at all; but there is no balance whatsoever at Warwick - at least not anymore. Perhaps it was different when you were there.
As a Cambridge student who wants to learn about more than what the promotional materials, Wikipedia articles, and peer gossip talks about pertaining to the (often dark) history of British universities, I find this video to be a one of a kind source that succinctly discusses both the brutality and the accurate caveats contained in this topic. Well done for earning a new subscriber here-I've learned way more about this issue than ever before.
Fantastic video, thank you. The way you summarized the historical monument issue is articulate and, I hope, compelling to others as well.
Ah yes, British universities. Both of them.
czcams.com/video/gmOvEwtDycs/video.html
There was actually a version of the script, way back in the first draft, where I wanted to incorporate this clip into the video but then decided against it.
@@mjsmith1176 It's not odd. I mention them along with Cambridge and exclusive public schools at the start of the video, but then don't mention them anymore because the video is about Oxford not other universities.
Is that freaking Yes Minister reference?
Incredible video. The trial of Nandakumar is one of the more striking and personal examples of bureaucratic oppression in imperialism, almost reads like a lost Kafka short story.
The part about a trial of peers was chilling. It's hard to imagine anyone trusting a legal system after such a sham
This is an invaluable video. Structure of the presentation, production value and articulation are all top notch. Excellent work!
I think the reason why you are one of my favorite history channels is that your ideas peak such a curiosity that I never thought I had, very good video
Thank you very much for this well researched and insightful video. Really, the quality is exceptional and this topic was fascinating. Looking forward to watching all your other videos when I have the time! :)
love the new documentary style presentation :)
phenomanal video, as always, looking forward to your next video!!
incredible video. thanks for sharing this.
A well produced and very interesting video! Great camera work and change of presentation!
thank you very much :)
Great video and thanks for the book recomendation
Fantastic video!
Fascinating video, glad you put this one on the best of 2022 playlist, because I missed it completely when it came out!
Sadly you and most of my subscribers. CZcams completely hid this one for some reason.
I've been there recently wow very nice vid
What an excellent video, I clicked on it because of the title and when I finished and looked at the view count was surprised it didn't do as well as some of your other videos. Amazing work.
Thank you. Yeah it's a bit sad this video did so poorly but ou well. We move on. Plus this video will always be here and I think it's pretty good so people might discover it later.
Amazing research !!! Thank you.
I never comment on videos but you are truly one of the best out there. When you inevitably start writing books or publishing in journals, blogs or newspapers I intend to follow your work!
Keep it up, it is appreciated.
Unfortunately, I don't have the time to watch the whole video right away but I can already tell that it's an interesting and impressive one. For now I'm leaving a like and a comment for the capricious Algorithm.
Thank you. I actually just got a text from one of my friends being like "yo I used to watch your videos but this one hour bull shit needs to stop" (in jest of course) :D
@@MLaserHistory Some (most?) topics simply require time to be presented with even the minimum of nuance they deserve. To be perfectly honest, I usually find around 20 minutes to be optimal for videos on this platform, but yours didn't feel too long at all. That being said, I was at work when it dropped, so technically I shouldn't be watching CZcams at all. 😉
BTW History of the Earth and Voices of the Past (channels sharing creators) just dropped two videos of combined length exceeding 2 hours. Now, that's bonkers.
@@Artur_M. But did History of the Earth go shoot on location and freeze his ass off in the last ice age? I don't think so, hence my video is superior :D
@@MLaserHistory Obviously.
Ikr, I have 90 videos in watch later
This was really thorough and eye opening! Great video, man.
Fantastic and well researched video presented in a very interesting and engaging manner. My most sincere thanks for expanding my knowledge on this important subject.
Thank you very much :)
GOD this is such incredible content, i feel like i should be paying for this!!!
Current Oxford student here.
This is a wonderful video, thank you for this.
Thank you :)
Great video
This. This is amazing.
great video!
Great vid!
How the hell did I just find this video in my recommendations. I'm subscribed, and yet went completely under the radar.
Great work as always, I love the new style.
The CZcams algorithm completely fucked me on this video for some reason. It didn't promote or show it at all to my subscribers.
I am glad you liked it though :)
Great video and amazing job as always!!!!
hello from Cambridge. Kudos for a very informative video.
I'd love to see this expanded as part of a series on "Organs of Empire', or something better-named. Are there comparable relationships in other empires through history?
I am sure there are, and not just in traditional "empires". USA with it's Ivy Leagues was very similar. Universities, especially from the late 18th to the late 20th century acted as the teaching grounds for the ruling class. I mean, to some extent they still are. This meant that during the time of primarily western Empires a lot of the people that were in charge were taught at high end Universities of their respective countries. Sorbon for France, Oxbridge for Brittain, Ivy Leagues for USA, etc. Each Universities' direct connection with the Empire or the ruling class, however, was different depending on the country. In some, like in Oxbridge, the connection was far more direct due to the monopoli on higher education these two institutions possesed. In Germany, where the country was divided until the latter half of the 19th century, the disunity hindered such direct connection with the state apparatus. This fostered more radical thinking in German universities than in other countries. A good explanation of how the disunity of Germany fostered more radical thinking in its universities is in the first few chapters of "Magnificent Rebels: The First Romantics and the Invention of the Self".
@@MLaserHistory Not to mention the effect that same disunity had on patent protections (or rather, lack thereof) of various industrial IP between the german states!
I suppose this has all given way to the University - corporate pipeline in the modern day, having evolved from a track into the seminary so long ago.
Great video❤
This is the first video of yours I've seen and thank you very much for taking the time to make it. Very clear presentation and nuanced discussion, thanks also for some book recommendations - I like it when videos like these give further sources as even a well-researched video can't really cover a topic in the same way.
Outstanding and very informative
Accurate. Timely. Informative. Excellent. Thank you for your work.
Excellent video, so underrated
Great vid, shame it hasn't reach a large number of people it's very good and informative
Thank you :)
I am not really sure what happened. CZcams completely torpedoed this video. Even compared to my other not so well preforming videos this one is even worse than those. I really don't know why and it's really annoying as I put a lot of work into this one.
Amazing content
Although the views don't reflect it, this was a really good video
Many people today recognize the social control and exploitation that took place in Rhodes' mines, but they don't recognize when they see the low prices from items they buy in a store, it is caused by cheap textiles labor.
We really aren't any better, or worse, than we were centuries ago. Even if that goes against lies people tell to others, or even themselves.
Thanks for the video, btw.
based.
I love this video. It explained the backgrount behnind the #Rhodesmustfall situation and so much more perfectly. We need more historians like you. Keep up the great work.
This deserves more views
Great video as always. Will definitely check out those books, and try to find that West Indies slavery paper because they sound good. As for statues and such, part of my mind thinks we should keep them up because they are controversial. This probably isn't for the best, but keeping them up sparks people's interest in the history behind them, and allows for continued examination of their legacies. While a statue or something named after them isn't required for that, it does bring public attention to these things, which can often be missing from these sorts of historical discussions.
If you're talking about Eric Williams' paper I believe he later managed to publish it under the name Capitalism and Slavery, but I would probably look up some more modern economic takes about the abolishment of slavery and its economic reasons. Williams' paper is definetly outdate at this point, but it could serve as an interesting context for the historiography of the topic.
@@MLaserHistory Thanks. It looks to be an interesting topic, so I will make sure to read more into it.
The suggestion that has often been made is to simply add plaques explaining who these people actually were so that anyone looking at the statues aren't mislead.
Babe wake up Laseroid has published a new vid.
In all jokes I love your vids, you and WhatIfAltHis are the only channel I look forward to in my Subs tab
Thank you.
Excellent video. We forget that one big function of universities is just to be a place and a institution for Elite Group think.
Great video to bye the way
Pomyslieť si, že za mnohými hrôzami moderních impérii stáli veľmi dobre vzdelný ľudia je ceľkom strašidelné. Človek si potom ešte lepšie uvedomí, že všetci sme schopný vykonať hrôzostrašné činy, a že jediný dôvod, prečo sme ich nevykonali je, že sme sa narodili v správny čas na správnom mieste.
Polak Wegier Dwa Bratanki, I Do Szabli I do Szlanki...
It’s true. If we are ever put in a similar situation, we have to choose what is right instead of becoming a pawn in the banal evil of empires.
We still live in a time period where you can choose to do terrible things. In fact, no one ever lives in a time period where they cannot choose to do terrible things.
Stay true to your moral code, folks. Or rethink it, if your have a particularly vile moral code.
Best history videos on youtube fr
Wow! I did *not* think M. Laser would be so handsome!
Most enjoyable! Of course I went to Oxford…. Had a lovely lunch there just after Christmas 😂
Please make more documentaries. I love you forever for it
OH NO HE'S HOT!!!!
Fantastic video Laser. Keep up the great work.
A fascination presentation, with nuances and atrocities balanced. Regarding what to do about the monuments of those who were involved in the atrocities of empire, wouldn't it be better to add an plaque of their atrocities so as not to forget this than just removing them forever?
I think almost anything is better than what the university is doing now, which is nothing. I have a newspaper article actually coming out this week about this whole thing.
I think this is of topic but the guy in the van behind flipped you of but I could be mistaken
I Love your videos bro. Little mistake, it's James 6th of Scotland and 1st of England not 4th of Scotland which you state early in the video. A little stumble over Roman numerals, your analysis of the larger issues is well researched and makes sense to me 👍
Yeah, I caught the mistake while editing but it was too late to re-record. Hence, why it shows the roman numeral for VI on the screen when I accidentally say IV.
where do you get your topographical maps from?
maps-for-free.com/#close
This video is amazing and youtube really messed up by not promoting it
nice
MOAR irl M.Laser.
This a strange question but when would you say it would become mandatory to learn a different language such as German if I would want to specialise in German history? I'm currently in my third out of my fourth year in my history undergraduate.
Taking aside the fact that I would say learning a new language is always going to be a useful skill no matter what you'll end up doing in life. It all depends on what you want to do and where you want to go.
If you want to stay in academia and want to continue on to a PhD, and take the professor rout eventually, than the earlier you can start learning new languages relevant to your specialization the better. Highly competitive graduate schools usually expect you to already have some understanding of the languages you will need for your research and that expectation will only increase the higher you get on the academic ladder. If, however, you don't want to stay in academia and only want to get like a masters, than I'd say you don't have to stress it as much. You'll learn what you need during the masters or during the application process and you wont need it much after that so you wont have to learn it extensively.
If you only speak English then German is probably a great jumping off point for learning more languages in general since it contains all the basics you'll encounter in most other European languages, so I'd suggest learning it solely for that reason.
46:19 Just curious - Which are the comfortable parts of the British empire?
Obviously, I am not asking for the beneficiaries from the British empire.
Eliminating the Atlantic and Indian Ocean slave trade. My country, Brazil, for example, was forced to end its slave trade with African kingdoms due to the British.
best one yet
I personally belive that there should be a museum or a place where all the controversial statues/simbols go to and are still open to the public, with all the data relating to who made it, on what year, for what reason and why it got removed.
Nice video
Celtic nationalists say that English landowner + capitalist empire started centuries earlier when it attacked + invaded Wales, Scotland,
Cornwal, Isle of Man.
Brilliant documentary. Thoroughly enjoyed it. As a bright member of the British working classes I would add that we too were denied access to Oxbridge because our state school system was set up - in a subtle way - to exclude us. In other words, until fairly recently you didn't have to be black to suffer apartheid. It was the UK's private education system which was almost exclusively geared to supplying the candidates who would become our future leaders. I welcome the fact that the horrors associated with the British Empire are being exposed, but I'm against statue removal and the renaming of buildings, professorships, etc, because it seems to be concealing this history. We have to acknowledge the truth and live with it. So I can walk down an Oxford street and say to my daughter, "There's Cecil Rhodes' statue, what an absolute basxxxx he was."
There's definetly an argument to be made that taking down symbols would mean the discussion surrounding them will also go away with them. Junie James, the director of ACKHI, said this in an TORCH (The Oxford Research Centre in the Humanities) interview. Meaning that these imperial symbols, for all the negative things they symbolize, do provide a catalyst for discussion of certain parts of history that some people would rather not discuss and keep quiet. I would say this aspect of the symbols does not outweigh the negative things they symbolize, hence I am with Richard J. Evans on this, but an argument can be made certainly. One artist proposed turning the Rhodes statue around so he would face the wall rather than the street. This way the statue stays up but the symbolism become something much different. Similar changing of statues and what their symbolize was done in Germany where an Elephant, which was supposed to symbolize the German African possession, was painted with pan-African colors and a plaque mourning the victims of colonialism was added. This way the statue remained in its original position but its symbolism was changed.
@@MLaserHistory You're very fair-minded which is to your credit, but I cannot agree with your conclusions. I want real history, in buildings, titles, books and films, not a sanitised, woke version. The statues in Oxford prompted you to make this superb documentary. If all offensive traces were removed from Oxford, would a history graduate in the future be prompted to do the same? No, because the real history would be hidden. The crucial thing is that every statue or symbol should have a plaque at least as big as the original pointing out that the largesse of the benefactor came from the human misery he inflicted on countless thousands of native people. That's the mistake Bristol council made when they hummed and hared about doing this for the Colston statue but never got around to it.
Also, some allowance has to be made for societal norms in past centuries. Most educated people would be inspired by the classics - particularly the Roman Empire. Didn't most European societies want to emulate it? Even without the Roman example, many Asian & African societies had similar aspirations. Mongols, Huns, Chinese. Look at the Zulus - a centralised, organised, empire-building state. If you tried to resist absorption you would be destroyed. I currently feel it's a little too easy for young people to play judge & jury based on principles that have not been broadly adopted for more than about 60 or 70 years.
@@trailingarm63 100% agree. Statuess are the least of our problems. The flow of louts who walk straight from Oxford into Government or other positions of control is the problem.
@@MLaserHistory There's also a statue of Bismarck in Germany where they put a goat on top of his head, which if nothing else is really funny.
Very unusual topics
I'm going to Oxford this year for mathematics. It is quite easy to see the university's connection with the British Empire, but it's so interesting to see how many ideas of colonialism (sometimes extremely cruel) came from it.
22:50 bruh I thought the video was over and you were listing patreon supporters
Mimochodom, je toto najlepší Slovenský vzdelávací kanál na youtube ? Slovenských popularizátorov vzdelania je na youtube dosť málo, kvalitných ešte menej. Toto video sa môže kvalitou rovnať aj tým najlepším kanálom Anglofónneho youtubu. Vedieť, že kanál takej kvality je prácou slováka vzbudzuje hrdosť !
Neviem ci by som sa nazval 'Slovenský vzdelávací kanál' kedze nerobym nic po slovensky, lebo bohuzial sa moc neoplati robyt videa po slovensky, hlavne ak to iste video mozem urobyt po anglicky, ale dakujem za pekne slova :)
@@MLaserHistory y?
@@michalvalko248 why it's not worth making videos in Slovak?
@@MLaserHistory ze preco to "robyt"
@@michalvalko248 Slovensko spolu s Českom majú takých 15-16 miliónov ľudí. Veľa z nich nepozerá CZcams oproti ľuďom na západe a z toho ešte menej pozerá historické videa. Tak tiež 'ad revenue' je asi o polovicu, ak nie ešte viac, menej na Slovensku ako na západe. To znamená že aj keby som mal na videu po Slovensky tolko isto videní zarobyl by som stale o polovicu menej. Posledne keďže som nešiel na výšku na Slovensku moja akademická slovenčina je veľmi zlá a neviem sa moc dobre odborne vyjadrovať o histórii v slovenčine.
You've returned once again!
Every once in a while I come out of my cave to record a video and then I return back to my cave to start the research for the next video.
I think debates like these can take hours , and not even a detailed vid like this one can cover everything, morals of most people before the 20th century are not compatible with our own.
For example , Elizabeth I got the sailors who defeated the Spanish Armada stay at sea for an indefinite period of time, because she did not want to pay their salaries, resulting in many of their deaths.
Even we have many figures like Ashoka of the Maurya Empire, you may want to look up Odd Compass video on that figure.
The main point, than anything else, is to acknowledge that these people, and their actions, do not concur with our current moral values and in some cases go actively against them. Ones that is accepted what must be asked is whether the statues, monuments, and memorials that do remain are worth keeping and, if so, why? Do they represent some very important national identifier or some positive aspect that society decides out way the negative ones? In the end it all comes down to the greater society and the court of public opinion. But, one thing is certain, statues, monuments, and memorials also represent the values of the society that chooses to keep them up and there's nothing wrong with the values of the society changing and evolving. In fact, that is very human.
@@MLaserHistory agreed.
@@MLaserHistory They are worth keeping up because they have historical value. That is the only reason. Historical monuments will never concur with current moral values. Never.
The great evolution of social values is to be able to make a distinction between past and present.
@@coe3408 Then that raises the question of when does something gain historical value, a lot of these statues are barely a century old, not really all that old for Europe and older things are demolished all the time. And what exactly does historical value even mean? Is historical value solely a function of age or are other factors more important? And does something having historical value necessarily mean that it must be kept in situ for eternity? I mean most historical artifacts are moved to museums for safe keeping and to add context, there's plenty of Nazi monuments that have historical value but we didn't let them stay up as monuments but put them in museums where they could be given proper context. Not to mention I don't really see why you can be so certain that historical monuments will never align with modern values, I mean Oxford and Cambridge themselves are still celebrated as centers of the Enlightenment and the Scientific Revolution, and people like Newton, Maxwell, and Darwin are still held in high regard. Similarly many symbols of the French Revolution including the flag are still celebrated as the birthplace of European Liberal ideas like democracy and human rights. Even ancient monuments like the Athenian Akropolis have seen a new appreciation as the center for the first European Democracy after having been largely forgotten for millennia. It seems to me that historical monuments very often do align with modern values, as values changes so do what we appreciate so very often new things are given appreciation while others fall out of favor, or their meaning is changed. An example of the latter would be the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin, which was originally a symbol of Prussian Militarism but has been repurposed as a symbol of the reunification of Germany and the modern liberal ideals post-war Germany was founded on.
"South Sea Company"
DEAR GOD
Fantastic video as always. As an American the section at the end reminded me quite a bit about our own debate over taking down statues that venerate confederate figures. Not sure if it's comforting or frustrating to know that we're not the only ones that can't wrap our heads around taking down celebratory statues =/= erasing history.
cool
This is the first video of yours that I have watched after being directed to your channel by OverSimplified's War of the Bucket episode.
It is often disturbing to see how past beliefs and prejudices have dictated the current state of the modern world. Even within the UK, mainly (Southern) England, there are still a large number of people who blindly believe in the infallible future of the British system. Despite all the current failings, they still argue that Britain is above reproach and just outright better than all other nations.
As a personal note, I appreciate your acknowledgement of the disconnect between different regions within the UK, given the turbulent history between England and the rest of the British and Irish Isles. And as much as I wish it wasn't true, there are still many in England that see the Welsh, Scottish and Irish as inferior. Going to so far as to say that we should be grateful that England is willing to look after us...
I realise this is all anecdotal but it speaks to the impression that the English ruling class gives off to the rest of the nations. And the saddest part is that most of this will be forgotten or white-washed. Those interested in history without bias will always learn and try to keep these lessons alive. However, for the majority of future generations, who have not suffered through the likes of the Troubles in Northern Ireland or Apartheid in South Africa, they will fail to see the importance of remembering these events. And in doing so, they won't be able to hold the ruling power to account when they behave in similar ways in the future. They may not use race as a reason for pushing superiority but we have seen in recent decades the use of religion (a classic to be sure), national interest and the "protection of liberty and peace" to push selfish agenda's and incite conflicts in in regions both foreign and national. Examples being the gulf wars, the war on terror and of course Brexit. The ruling elite will push whatever rhetoric is needed to achieve their goals, whether they believe it or not. And if it is pushed enough, it becomes the norm amongst the Upper and Middle classes. Which in turn, determines the future of the working and lower classes. But I forgot, the class system doesn't exist anymore, right? 🥴🤪🤡
Just to note, of the last 16 Prime Ministers of the UK (from 1945), 12 of them are Oxford educated...I don't think PM's have ever been in touch with the majority of the people they represent.
Honey, wake up from your cryosleep! Lesser History has uploaded
"cryosleep" :D Undoubtedly the best way to deal with the long amount of time between Lesser's video releases.
The lifelong dream of Cecil Rhodes was to put the "American Colonies" (Chatham House still talks like this),
back under British Rule.
These things were discussed and debated at his so-called "Roundtable", which aside from his
like minded oligarchs included the collaborating minion, and United States Citizen, Samuel Prescott Bush (1863-1848).
Ole' Cecil's dream finally came true, I say.
no one is saying? or do you mean no one ""important"" is saying these things
No one "sensible" would be what I implied. Radicals will always be there from one side or the other but just because there're some crazy people who are talking about defunding the scholarship that doesn't mean we should take them seriously, hence I am not. On the other side crazy people that say that Africans were better off under the compound system should also not be taken seriously.
@@MLaserHistory thanks for the clarification; I found the video very insightful otherwise.
I can't focus.. can't stop staring into his eyes
Well, there's a face behind the voice. Hehehe...
or is there? Could be just an actor I hired and than overlaid my voice recording over him hmmmm
I'd support removing the statues to put them in a part of a museum mentioning clearly what these men did, accompanied by photos of the atrocities they committed, so we remember our past and the horrors we shall not repeat.
We could then replace these statues by different ones representing more our today's society values and who we want to become.
I'd agree with that.
We should have museums like that. But I don't think it is necessary to take down statues. They are historical monuments with historical values. People can simply research for the person's history if they want to. No need to infantalize the public.
@@coe3408 nobody was infantalized when statues of Staline, Hitler, Saddam, Khadafi etc. were removed.
These statues might not offend you but they hurt others. It might be time for our society to consider everyone equally and thus do with these statues what we did with the ones that offended us in the past.
@@notsocreative Saddam, Khadafi and Hitler were defeated in war by foreign powers who forced the taking down of the statues. They were not historical statues at the time, completly different to taking down a 300 year old statue with historical value. If Trump makes a public statue of himself I would be in favor of taking it down. With Stalin, it happened imediately after Stalin's death. I would not be in favor of taking down Stalin's statue that survive today. Also, no public policy should be based on personal feelings. Anyone can be offended by anything. Would you be in favour of destroying churches if the presence of churches offend others?
@@coe3408 A church is a building thus not linked to the doings of one person. People using the facilities of the church today (or leading it) don't automatically have the values of the people at the time it was first opened. That was an OTT example.
A statue is not built in the goal to teach history but to celebrate an event or honor someone. It is up to the present society to decide if they wish to continue celebrating that specific event or honor that specific person. If not, they can then decide to remove a statue and replace it by another more in line with their values.
I'm only saying that I wouldn't destroy the removed statues as they have an historical value. Thus, I think they should be in specifics rooms of museums with detailed explanations to teach history. Just not in the middle of a street to still be celebrated and honored.
As someone who used to live in London and now lives in Cambridge, you can see the legacy of imperialism everywhere. Just annoying that many don’t want to admit that places like this grow of the back of subjecting others
It's a weird thing because acknowledging it and talking about it really shouldn't be that hard or controversial. No one is accusing "you" specifically of anything, "you" didn't live in the 19th century, but so many people take it very personally for some reason. Once people figure out that they don't need to be afraid of talking about it, I think it will become much more easier addressing these uncomfortable legacies.
@@MLaserHistory It is hard because in Britain imperialism is currently seen as an inherent evil in itself, not as something with good and bad sides. It would be as if "Ottoman Empire" became a synonym with evil in the head of most young turks, and people demanded the removal of Ottoman monuments.
@@coe3408 What exactly is the problem with seeing Imperialism as evil? And what you mentioned very much did happen, it's kinda the foundation of modern Turkey even if Erdogan if trying to remove it with his right wing nationalism.
I’d say this about the legacy of imperialism. I get the arguments, but are we praising the person because of their impact? Or are we praising them for the good they’ve contributed?
If impact, it’s reasonable to have controversial figures, though many will agree on a limit on WHO should and shouldn’t be appreciated.
If it’s on good, then the controversial figures may not deserve the level of respect they have
The problem also is that people try to make generalized views i.e. people in this group all bad, people in that group all good. This, in an of itself, is problematic. World is far more complicated and can't be easily generalized this way. I think we should deal with these things on an individual bases rather than give blanket statements because than you end up with people putting Churchill and Rhodes together even though they were very different people with extremely different legacies.
Very interesting documentary. It would be really interesting to hear more contemporary comments from that era on such these ideas as "white man's burden" from the other side (my ancestors are from one of those areas marked "uncivilized";)). EDIT: I disagree about pulling down statues. They represent the history - the savory and unsavory parts of it. It's much better to have placate explaining some of these things next to the statue than tear them down.
There were plenty of people, even in Europe, that noted the irony of the supposed "civilizing mission" that European empires claimed to have and the brutal methods they used, there's a pretty famous cartoon in a French socialist newspaper pointing this out.
I’m currently soon to be a student at Oxford University. Even if its true that the University of Oxford was associated one time with the British Empire, why does it even matter?
It matters because it helps us explain the privileged or elite position of the university today. By understanding the past we can explain the present. Whatever your stance may be on the Empire, the legacy of it at the University, and other things. The fact always is that the history helps us explain the present, how things are and why things are that way they are. That is why it matters.
@@MLaserHistory It is even tautological to say that a university in Britain was associated with the British Empire. That is like saying a Madrasa in Turkey in the 18th century was associated with the Ottoman Empire.
@@coe3408 A lot of people don't acknowledge that connection though and paradoxically think that these institutions could somehow have existed in an Imperialist system while being completely divorced from it so it's important to discuss it.
So why cant we just take down the statue and put it in a more museum like display/context with the text explaining of where it used to be and why its not there?
At that point its not a memorial or a symbol but a symbol of something that used to be (display of the past)
Because of money, mostly. Oreal college even voted to remove the statue but stopped the process when some rich benefactors said they will stop their donations to the college if they remove it. Simply put a lot of funding for the university comes from conservative sources which, as discussed in the video, have a much more positive memory of the empire. They see removing the statue as an attack on this positive memory and so try to defend it. The university wants the money and therefore plays along with it.
@@MLaserHistory Didnt expect to get a reply as this video has been out for a while, especially not a quick one! Love your all of your videos!
I thought this would be a good middle ground as u appease the conservatives by preserving it and can still admire it in a museum and also the protesters by removing it. I feel if u keep things as they are you open up the chance forthe artifacts potential destruction in the future as lets say if the protestors radicallize (due to future unrest for example as had happend in the past, extreme example being Revolutionary France).
Really enjoyed the video and I often listen to your channel. With that said I disagree with your last statement. To keep old symbols around does not have to imply agrement with the persons depicted. I think that the inclusion of of that segment somewhat cheapens the the rest of the video as it can be interpreted as justification on your views regarding controversial monuments and not as a presentation of the schools influence on the British empire. Best of wishes and I look forward for more videos.
Yay
Damn Oxford sounds awesome. Wish I studied history there.
One correction 15:15 photographs didn't exist yet in 1775, so these photographs purported to be of early 19th century figures or prior are definitely false.
19:17 first average chad vs average enjoyer meme.
Thanks for doing such good work! Academia is scary when it's purpose is propaganda.
FACE REVEAL POG
I mean, I have shown my face for years now on the second channel.
15:55