I am jumping up and down with glee. Yes! The obvious, in-your-face self evident facts of that event that are IGNORED boggles my mind. People--LOOK for yourself! Building 7, untouched, not involved, fell flat in its own footprint. You accept this???
By attempting to psychologize people's legitimate concerns about their safety from those who prey upon them you attempt to de-ligitimize and dismiss and thereby undercut their attempts to organize awareness and defense.
Rune Thorsen I agree, this part was the singular most measured of the entire 40 minute video. My complaint with the video is the disproportionate time and number of guests who in one way or another explained the pathology of the conspiracy “theorist.” As if anyone who questions the official narrative is somehow deluded.
This is the first time I’ve been really disappointed by a Rebel Wisdom video. I think a psychological and evolutionary analysis is so inadequate and incomplete. There is an enormous amount of power, information, and wealth inequality in the world - this is a fact. This alone lends itself to corruption and deceit via self preservation, preservation of status and power. We, by nature, have the potential for evil. Throw loads of power and money on that...... Also a fact, there is a mountain of evidence on corruption, intentional deceit, gross misuse of power, coverups, conflicts of interest, revolving doors, and so on, within and between governments, government agencies, corporations, and academia. Well documented over the years in books, documentaries, articles, declassified documents, whistleblowers. I wrote a research paper years ago on corruption and conflicts of interest in big pharma and academia and government regulatory agencies. Payoffs, buy offs, data fudging, very shady marketing, and on and on. There was so much evidence readily available to write the paper.....whole books written by what seemed to be conscientious doctors and insiders, etc. I don’t know how many of the narratives flying around are true or partially true or based on solid evidence, but there are definitely countless well documented ‘conspiracy’ facts. It is completely naive to look at the conspiracy theory situation from a largely psychological, survival point of view. Although I will say that I firmly believe it to be vitally important to cultivate discernment and sovereignty and inner guidance and grounding/anchoring in our direct felt experience. I do not personally dive deep into and dwell on and eat and breath conspiracy narratives. I find it to drain my energy. More fruitful to spend time cultivating the inward experience and relationship, finding wisdom and peace and solid ground and wholeness. This is the only safe place to navigate from as it doesn’t depend on control or certainty or conscious knowing or prediction for OK-ness.
Ditto. Disappointment--even annoyance. These are intelligent, thoughtful people. I know that Rebel Wisdom is CAPABLE of assembling a discussion that would engender exploration of ideas, instead of explain away "conspiracy theories" as mere psychological conditions...
the point is to understand how it all works, not to assume knowing how it all works. "there is evil in the world" is an extremely fuzzy statement, even when it is true. if that is enough for you, you will change nothing.
@@kenhiett5266 A Saudi living in a cave with a dialysis machine told NORAD to stand down . Now that's a bat shit crazy conspiracy theory. I don't know what happened but I know what is not plausible.
I was debating whether I'd bother watching this and decided to read the comments in order to glean the main points of the conversation. Wow, what intelligent comments. They expressed well my exact concerns, and why I was hesitant to watch in the first place. Great community!
@thomas oconnor Well, thank you. I think, however, that he is paranoid about anything that sounds emphatic. Except for his own perspective, of course. He couldn't tolerate Zak using religious language - even tho it was more or less hyperbole - because of the "danger!!" of the slippery slope into religiosity. The Conspiracy Talk is similar. I think he is coming out of a Milieu or a Collective (or "reality tunnel") who were in agreement about these things and he just hasn't been challenged about it in a healthy way. I think he needs to talk less and listen more and find out that this is not a matter of degrees, but a problem that can be seen from above - as in: meta - as most of these things can - and now must be because all of us need more information in order to make good decisions. At the same time - and this is what I was hoping for in this video - those of us who are aware of the facts about Conspiracies need to do the same thing and stop just saying that the "Opposition" is wrong and congratulating ourselves about being right. We too need to look at the two extremes and say: _"When so-and-so said that people who believe in Conspiracies are "irrational", my brain shut off and I felt afraid and angry because it seems like so-and-so can't see the "clear and present danger" that is hiding in plain sight and brainwashing our population so they can't make good decisions when it's time to vote, etc... and so now I can't take anything so-and-so says seriously and we can't have a conversation. So-and-so seems completely alien to me now. Is so-and-so content with this result? Does so-and-so have the same experience when I talk about what I 'believe?' Do I state things in such a way as to insult the intelligence of my "opponents?" I wish I understood how they could come to the conclusions they come to if they are supposedly endowed with the same reasoning capabilities that I am. But if we can't have a conversation, how I can I learn this? How can we both talk so that we can both learn something?"_ He, for one, needs to stop blocking out the blatantly obvious fact that trauma-motivated pattern recognition also gives rise to most of the Systems Thinking and problem solving that he is usually so fond of. People have been actually solving actual problems this way since we were just "monkeys". The fact that some of the visible patterns correlate with the territory and some don't is not something individuals have much control over. We can't just shame and forbid people for trying to solve problems after they've been traumatized. Instead we need to compassionately offer to take them by the hand and walk into the territory with them to see if the patterns they see are really there or not. Because, honestly, tomorrow, we will need someone to do the same for us. Unless we are just so privileged that we are never traumatized about anything. "Do-you-see-what-I-see" (scaled up in proportion to how big of a threat is perceived) is the tried and true way to figure out what is real. Someone in an office surrounded by books cannot tell me if my neighbor hates me and plots with my other neighbors to try and hurt me or not. Nor are they qualified to tell me whether or not "agents" working for "The Powers That Be" started the "Social Justice Movement" in order to undermine Unity in _true_ Social Justice Groups * And if they try, they will just make an idiot of themselves. * Did I just say that? Oh, dear....
Sorry to be off topic but does someone know a trick to get back into an Instagram account..? I was dumb lost my account password. I would love any tips you can offer me.
@Landon Beckham Thanks for your reply. I got to the site thru google and Im trying it out now. Looks like it's gonna take quite some time so I will get back to you later with my results.
Here my poetic take on John’s scientific take on pattern recognition: I’ve entitled the following poem “Hints That Convince”: Human beings are pattern recognition machines Patterns here Patterns there Patterns everywhere What do they mean Are they promises Are they warnings Are they predicting the unforeseen Look at those numbers Those stars Those cards Those hints That convince of conspiracy Leaves in a cup of tea Who's that hiding in the bread mould Could it be the God of old Is that His face staring at me Who else could it be Maybe His mother Mary Three good things in a row On a winning streak Don't change your lucky socks Don't change your lucky shoes Don't change your lucky anything Patterns here Patterns there Patterns everywhere Intuitions Superstitions Apparitions All manifestations of a beautiful mind's obsession With pattern recognition
Anatoly Yevtushenko, I wrote the poem. I don’t really consider myself a poet. This one like the other 99 I have written are more like meditations. They just come to me after a long period of reflection on a particular topic.
As the host alluded to initially, the whole construct "conspiracy theory " is highly biased. How would this whole topic be different without that laughably biased term? How would it be if each time we said instead, "independent thinkers"? E.g., "in a crisis when people feel a loss of control, they are more likely to become independent thinkers, " etc.
I think it would have been much more useful to directly attack the facts and arguments with better facts and better arguments rather than producing this long and painful ad hominem speech. In the end all you're doing is speculating on a metaphysical level, which is quite the opposite of an honest and grounded approach.
this is exactly the point of informational warfare. sometimes seemingly better facts and better arguments are *not* better facts and better arguments. or, wait... is this irony?
Go back to Daily life. Here is the answer. Brian Rose talked to David Ick about 5g's relationship with covid19. That episode was banned from different platforms. What do they censor the Other narrative?
Hypothesis 1: They censor the other narrative because they don't want the truth getting out. Hypothesis 2: They censor the other narrative because it's dangerous misinformation which will harm people. Doesn't really prove much either way.
bea N That essence has been rolling around in my head since I watched this vid. Thanks for putting it “on paper.” Ain’t it frustrating to watch them dance around it, lost in their own certainty?
@@werquantum , yeah, that's a great quote, isn't? I've always loved it. I didn't feel any certainty though in the video. Looking at conspiracy theories from a brand new angle took some balls in my opinion. I think they kind of reversed this quote and what they are trying to say is something like 'In certain instances they are indeed after you, but watch out, bro, be aware that you are paranoid by nature.'
Conspiracy is a belief. What is missing in this video is addressing what are the logic to reach their conspiracy? Someone tells me this is what is really happening, this conspiracy X. Immediately, I am not interested if this conspiracy X is true or not, which is a belief, but rather, I will ask, "What made you come to this conclusion?" And through critical thinking get to the basic assumptions, facts, and interpretations.
39:12 'In the midst of starvation, and plague, and literal military siege, you have Socrates and Plato and the birth of an entirely new way of understanding reality that took the axial revolution throughout the world.' - John Vervaeke
10:00 With all due respect to a great scientist, there's something very important all those armchair scientists are missing. It's not just enhanced pattern recognition with all it's false positives. False positives are always part of the normal brain activity. That's how human brain works. It's noisy and chaotic and throws lot of errors, constantly. That's not the point. Something else, something very significant happens when your brain is certain you're being hunted. You will enter a whole different mode of operation. You will develop completely new abilities that work in reality. For example, you'll suddenly develop an ability to sense if somebody's standing behind you looking at you. That's very common and reported by many people. You turn around, and there he is, an actual person you've never met before who was sent to follow you. It's so bizarre you often can't even explain how you did it, but the results nevertheless, are real. All the experiments designed by the scientists who never experienced any of this, will of course exclude any possibility for any such "side effects". Once your methodology is not designed to register those phenomenon, how can you register them? Of course you won't. That's always the trouble with "armchair science", no matter how smart are the scientists analyzing the collected data afterwards. Because it's already worthless, sterile and therefore not representative of the reality out there. If something so [biologically] complex and costly like the right hemisphere of the human brain evolved as a defense mechanism against predation, wouldn't it follow from the basic laws of the evolution theory that it had to produce significant practical advantages for the specimen? There has to be at least one, or maybe more, mechanisms generated by it that actually work and give practical results. It's obvious to anyone who knows how Darwin's theory works...
The other day I told someone close to me that I was enjoying wearing my ‘Keep it Surreal’ shirt. Having spent years on the edge and come back from it, I find myself calm in the center of the storm. I’m not insensitive to the suffering and fear, and don’t hold any position or belief of immunity. There are things we can and can’t control, just as there are things we can know and not know. Two worlds colliding. I’ll leave the science of the virus up to the ones studying it and apply my common sense vs. adopting an either/or mindset. The truth is all around, and I can remain open minded with a healthy dose of skepticism, while not needing to convince or be convinced of anything. I understand enough about consciousness to see how we are where we are, and it comes down to each individual eventually seeing the interconnectedness, or not...but separating themselves from it. We bounce off each other in a dance, but at the same time our realities are our own. There is pattern in everything, and we are linked like rings on a chain. What I give meaning to, shows up for me in peculiar ways. Specific number sequences that freeze long enough for me to notice, other times hitting a pause button, there it is again...and so on. Energetically felt responses (resonance) in the body, regardless of distance. Observations repeating often enough to keep it interesting; curious, but no longer begging to be answered.
Ther's a pattern in the numbers too. Covid19 is not more dangerous than a common flu. The lockdown however will destroy millions of lives and condemn whole societies to slavery.
Raw Garlic It’s an endless argument between patterns being random vs. ordered. It’s one of those truths we cannot know. I’ve surmised there is an intelligent design we can’t comprehend in this “reality.” Do I think lockdown is wise? There isn’t a singular answer to that. As with most things, it’s layered. Which is why most arguments are too one sided to see past the nose of the one making it. The answer is in the middle. Open it up, and expect everyone to fall in line and follow common sense protocol. Good luck with that. Keep it closed, and watch the devastation unfold. The death toll could rise either way. No one seems to be able to agree. History of the world on repeat. I’ll do my part, if everyone else does theirs. Edited to add: A blanket statement that Covid is not more deadly than the flu doesn’t fit either. Because to some, it clearly is. We just don’t know why yet.
Rebel wisdom, the most needed channel on youtube. Thank you so much for your work! I'm sure im not the only one who's mental health was saved by this fantastic channel and thinkers.
Thank you both for asking the right questions! Fundamental for understanding the world and ourselves in it. Congratulations and great appreciation for the podcasts you are doing during these crisis times.
David, another great episode. I so appreciate what you are doing here and all those who have given their time, energy, and minds to contribute to your channel. This brings hope into a very opaque reactive modern mindset. Bravo!
Can you even attempt sound sense making about conspiracies without once mentioning Snowden or Assange. I liked Daniels take in the previous video but this one felt unbalanced.
Why should we make meaning in this crisis? This crisis is a potent opportunity to face naked reality without negative or positive narratives. The courageous and obvious step is to drop both the conspiracy theories and the security blanket of meaning. It's easy to do. Firstly, face the fact that encountering naked reality is inevitable because there is no absolute security. Then get comfortable with the underlying feelings rather than reacting to them by clinging to conspiracies or meaning. We assume that if we uncover a conspiracy, then we will be able to create security, or if we create meaning, then we will be able to cope with insecurity. Neither of those assumptions is true. Instead, we can just directly face the insecurity of naked reality because it is what it is. Fortunately, you will find that openness to naked reality feels ecstatic because it is expansive, unlike conspiracies, and it is true, unlike created meanings.
If anyone is trying to wrap life up in a little box it would be the men on today’s show. In contrast with Schmactenberger, who encouraged people to use critical thinking and ask questions. He had more of a philosophic approach, which seemed less judgmental and fixed. The two things I agree with in this video are that information/knowledge is liberating and that some people have an overactive and overreaching propensity for pattern recognition. I personally experienced someone telling me a mattress company was satanic because of the molecular structure in the company’s logo. They thought it was the adrenochrome molecule. When I told them it was a honeycomb pattern that is used in the mattress structure and showed them the two molecules side by side, it was not enough to change their perception. Anyway, in this video the psychological paradigm doesn’t explain everything, and it most definitely leaves out spiritual well-being or the search for happiness. In Schmactenberger’s video, one doesn’t get the sense he is trying to poo-poo conspiracy theorists unlike the psychologists in this video, nor does he come across as omniscient. In the end, I enjoyed the variety of exchanges!! Thank you. Good job. Keep it going!
Fascinating and wide-ranging. I wish it had been mentioned more fairly that there is a grain of truth to be gleaned from most conspiracy theories. Thank you for ending strongly with John Vervaeke.
It's interesting to view this pandemic through the lens of another psychologist's theory, Jon Haidt. His theory of personality traits relationship to the differing left/right approaches to managing borders suggests it relates to sensitivity to disgust, which is itself rooted in an evolutionary mechanism for handling disease; what to keep in, what to keep out. The current left/right political infighting surprised me, I thought maybe a pandemic might bring us together, but maybe this explains why this isn't happening. Ordinarily the left like to remove borders and the right like to build them up, yet during this pandemic these approaches of the left and right have been scrambled, and in some cases switched to the opposite.. the emotional response of the left and their social concerns has made them very pro borders, at a level of country, house (lockdown) and body. The right seems more inclined to open up businesses after their initial lockdown etc, perhaps because their lower emotional response is not overriding facts and evidence so much, offering a less shortsighted view, maybe? Trump is an interesting case seen through this lens, since he is both strong on borders and the economy, and his reaction to lockdown has - much like an overactive immune system - damaged its own system; the economy, and now he wants to open up the lockdown for business which is criticised largely by the left, who want their extreme borders (country borders, house borders ie lockdown, body borders ie masks etc) left in place. Interesting, I thought. I don't think it's quite as simple as Haidt may possibly have predicted. Since during an actual pandemic, it seems like one trait considerably influences the general traits of left-open borders, right-big borders. It is only at a general, macro level that the left/right tendencies seem to demonstrate a consistent difference between left and right on borders, but during an actual threat of disease, these approaches get totally scrambled by other traits in each group.
I thought that Schmactenberger and Vervæke (especially at the end) were really valuable and prescient in their interpretations. Jules Evans' contributions... not so much. He tries to explain the occult wave of last century by saying it was simply a response to the catastrophe of WW1. Actually it predated WW1 by about twenty years and its heyday was around the turn of the century. He also said Teilhard de Chardin was a Eugenicist, which is debatable. Certainly he was a man of his time and held views which we’d find anachronistic- but he wasn’t a Eugenicist in the popular sense of the word. Evans also straw-mans the side that argues that we’re in the midst of a ‘great awakening’, in a way that I feel supports his own empiricist/materialist skepticism rather that being an objective analysis. Why doesn’t he choose to engage the views of someone like Charles Eisenstein rather than whomever he chose? Thanks for an interesting discussion guys 🙏
The gentleman at circa 30:26 on considerations on dissemination of information.....all quite true but equally applies to our MSM, press and politicians. Are we suggesting the proles set the bar higher than their caring and loving benefactors..... there's a conflict of all sorts right there!
It seems like most of these speakers are certain that there is nothing to any of these alternative views. Whatever one things about the conditions that bring about these alternative views is sort of secondary in light of this. How can this perspective be unbiased then? Must it all be impossible? I thought we were to "be humble about truth claims"? I could guess that this may be an editing or interview design issue rather than the speakers being as certain as they appear.
Interesting to see how most people really didn't enjoy your work with this episode. Even more interesting to notice how balanced, fair and unbiased you normally are on your reporting, only to forget about all those values with such important topic. I dont think this was unintended.
You cannot say some conspiracy theories are unlikely to be true because people Want to believe in them.. The want to believe in something is not a variable that effects the validity of a theory.
As I write this there are about 20% unfavorable votes for this discussion, which is high for a Rebel Wisdom podcast. Sadly, that's a pretty good metric that even among the Rebel Wisdom audience, there are an awful lot of people who don't understand what 'makes us tick'. When justified skepticism morphs into not just easy answers but easy answers featuring a "bad" guy, it's time to turn that skepticism on oneself. And, for us humans, that's easier said than done.
I only found out about your work a couple of weeks ago and have really been enjoying a lot of your shows, mainly due to the fact that they are open and allow for discussion. The mental gymnastics that you are capable of and have shown in previous work and interviews is completely gone when the subject is a hot conspiracy theory!? I find that hard to believe, which really opens a lot of questions to you and your work.
Fascinating discussion. Since it is my practice to break down intellectual conversation to something a farmer might say: My Dad used to tell the story of the donkey that was tied between two bales of hay and couldn't decide which to eat and so starved to death. "Do something, even if it's wrong," my Dad used to say. He was recognizing the necessity of a goal for action and just what these folks are talking about - that we need to establish an order in chaos. He was also recognizing that the "something" one moved toward might be "wrong" and have to be adjusted. My Dad was not a "simple farmer." He was a blue collar intellectual and capable of critical thinking - though he was also likely to make axiomatic suppositions based on the family religious beliefs (which could lead down some crazy rabbit holes). So, bottom line for me: Hopefully, we exercise critical thinking in choosing which bale of hay to eat. It is good to understand that, as these interview subjects say: many people are not well educated in critical thinking, have little experience with it, and may be prone to wildly diving down rabbit holes. It's wise to settle down, but you may also need to crawl down a few rabbit holes to adequately suss them out and mine the nuggets of gold.
Not only did much of Mr. Vervaeke's attempt at explanation not follow a logical and coherent sequence, but he was incredibly condescending, seemingly without being aware of it. He should apply at the New York Times.
Well, love the discussion - but that Julian Evans guy definitely needs to take some DMT before claiming that non-duality/Connectedness is just an occult ego thing or the result of some pattern recognition. Thats just very bad sensemaking in my opinion...its funny that he ends his statement with the notion of "epistiological humility" but doesnt really apply it himself.
Alex Jones also often discusses the power of human free will, that we're not meant to be slaves, that we are connected and destined for higher purpose etc.
" Democracy" is a concept that is given to us to believe that we are free to choose the people that are going to choose the best for us . So people can you name at least one government in human history that have been doing exactly that??? And we blindly mast believe that the billionaires are giving their money to find the salvation for the people if we stay isolated and don't speak or criticize anything because we are being paid from governments while the economy is crashing down everywhere???? The reality that they have been created for us, is the source of any conspiracy .
I go on intuition and sense what's good or evil and same with people I sense their energy. Same with gvt leaders institutions. Some would call it paranoia but I've had a safe comfortable healthy life so my own personal barometer works for me.
Machiavelli said that the perfect conspiracy is a conspiracy of one, as complexity multiplies quickly whenever you add another co-conspirator. As someone who tends more to discount conspiracies that I hear expressed, it is more because the more complex and detailed the conspiracy, the more outlandish it sounds to me. Still, and in spite of many of the comments below, thank you for this video! I am not always sure where you are going as a group, but this video and subject gives me some new things to chew on. Much appreciated.
How about a simple explanation that there is absolutely no intellectual debate on MSM anymore therefore anyone with half a brain will seek good debate on the alternative media.
Indeed Gary academia could do with getting there act together and give the good doctor a voice. That what has been happening in the last hundred years since einstines theory is the collective searching for the pre established harmoney that drove the pre biblical world. Father son holy spirit and the other one
You are fools. The whole thing behind 5G is not saying that the technology causes Corona. We know for a fact that both the American and Chinese governments are desperate to create a monitoring/surveillance system and to commodify personal data, for the purposes of security and market control. The only way to do this is to have a high bandwith network that tracks human movements and behaviours in real time. A global pandemic is the perfect scenario to further this plan. Like Charles Eisenstein said, it's an Epidemic of Control.
Made it to about 30 mins. RW has led me to some great thinkers. I ALWAYS like to gather as much info on a topic as possible. This ones tough for me though, the truth is much stranger than most can even conceive of...
using the term "schizo" is somehow worse than calling people conspiracy theorists. Like if people are feeling afraid and grasping for answers, at LEAST they are trying to understand something instead of ignoring it. Why would you ever use this word? probably to deter people from believing others when they are discussing something that is disturbing to them... nobody wants to be considered schizo.
What worries me when I hear these kind of talks, as stated in previous comments, is that these experts of a particular field are projecting their own perspective and knowledge upon conspiracy theories without having studied the array of potential conspiracy theories in depth. I have been studying for around four years now. And when the dots add up, and you see the true horrors of the world, our history and future, you need everyone else to become aware asap. But they are lost, sadly. Yet believe you are manic and lost yourself. Project mockingbird has worked miracles!
If people could appreciate the moment and the experiences more, we as a people and our planet could be so much healthier. Stuff doesn’t make you happy; journeys and life experiences do. Consumption is the opposite of how we should live. The native Americans were the closest to understanding that.
I loosely describe myself as a Christian. I feel that my relationship with Gods love has deepened during quarantine. I’m usually a high anxiety sort of man, but through this, I’m feeling held in my inner self. Peace.
Consensus narrative might be a more helpful term, as that would bring all paradigms, cultural, scientific into the same arena. Career scientists or politicians might take issue with that, but that would be a healthy thing as it's only our egos being singed at its edges. From this collective space the only debate would be what narrative has the most coherence and pragmatic value.
Sometimes I think higher education these days is just another propaganda track where you are not taught to think critically but to regurgitate the ideas of accepted former thinkers. I felt this discussion was not open to the changing paradigm and dangerously close to pathologizing people accepting changing narratives. I don’t have a uni degree but was hoping for more.
The majority of people are finding patterns in the mainstream too and the majority believe the mainstream not so called conspiracy theories. Even though they are just another point of view. Not a conspiracy theory.
This comment thread is brilliant, and sad. The mental gymnastics people go through to defend their ego against admitting they were tricked is stunning. Admitting you can’t read a genome chart and believing COV19 is a GMV or not understanding the basic difference between ionizing and non-ionizing radiation and thinking 5G is causing this mess seems basically impossible. I know that latching on to a conspiracy theory, because it contains a villain, one that we can stop and make whatever is happening go away is seductive. ‘Nature did it’ is much more frightening than ‘bad guys did it’ because we can stop a villain. We can’t stop evolution or natural selection.
Does the real psychology behind psychologists own theories on the psychology of conspiracy theories show that their own theories only apply to their own theories? Are the psychologists just psychologically projecting? It is you who are looking for "meaning" using "pattern recognition" to fit them into your own preexisting overarching theories you find meaningful, whereas conspiracy theorists are looking for the facts. Their concern is truth, not meaning. No matter how close John gets to the camera or waves his hands around changes that fact. No amount of conflating the psychology of conspiracy theories with LSD experiences will help you make a true, practical or meaningful point. Conspiracy theorists deal head on with facts, wisely; armchair psychologists deal in pure theory. Wise up, Rebel.
Although some very thought provoking points. I think this video did undermine any questioning of the official story. There's a lot of evidence that things are not as they seem. It's a minefield trying to decider that. How would rebel wisdom respond to the views of Dr shiva and Robert Kennedy. It would be very useful to see a video you go through some of their points. It could act as a tutorial in fact checking so we can then continue the work. I look forward to your thoughts
I don't understand how Jung can be brought up so much on this channel with such a little understanding of his work. It baffles me.. Jordan Peterson really did his job well man... I've been going through a hard time lately because of the "out of the shadows" video. It confirmed trails that I had pursued on my own... Trails I had sniffed out from looking into hollywoods story plots, more so then the symbology. Really spooked my ass to see the video framed the way it was.. Felt like it exposed only 10% of the real deal.. and in a way in which pointed a finger at all mysticism. I had been aware that many big time shows and movies in Hollywood had a gnostic themed plot.. Well I take that back actually. I was aware that there was a reoccurring pattern taking place in the shows I was interested in. It took several heart wrenching experiences, and quite a bit of study in psychology until I discovered the Jung was all up in Hollywood. I became pretty polarized after discovering this... Master and his Emissary didn't help.. Something about humans spending thousands of hours watching a box that shows them a story about themselves really fucked with me. Maybe it's because I believe, like others, that the BLACK SCREEN in general has effects on the brain that give rise to unhealthy distancing.. IDK FULLY. One thing I DO KNOW is that Jordan Peterson should be questioned. His rise to fame from that MAINSTREAM media outlet we all keep bashing should be looked at very closely! My biggest thing about Peterson is his promotion of eating meat.. going so far as to claiming that daily meat intake has healed his daughter, and himself... Take away his headaches or some shit? Yeah.. he blasted that on Joe Rogan.. Animal industry gold right there. Tell a bunch of agro males that eating meat is the answer to health problems after you pump them up.. Beautiful work. How many Gnostics where vegetarian? As above, so below, as within, so without. You can't connect to the power of mother (shadow) until you understand what you do to her. Period. Also on Peterson... his promoting electronics to save us... I just can't handle it man.... Here is a quote from "Man and his Symbols" By Jung: "Our intellect has created a new world that dominates nature, and has populated it with monstrous machines. The latter are so indubitably useful that we cannot see even a possibility of getting rid of them or our subservience to them. Man is bound to follow the adventurous promptings of his scientific and inventive mind and to admire himself for his splendid achievements. At the same time, his genius shows the uncanny tendency to invent things that become more and more dangerous, because they represent better and better means for wholesale suicide. In view of the rapidly increasing avalanche of world population, man has already begun to seek ways and means of keeping the rising flood at bay. But nature may anticipate all our attempts by turning against man his own creative mind. The H-bomb, for instance, would put an effective stop to overpopulation. In spite of our proud domination of nature, we are still her victims, for we have not even learned to control our own nature. Slowly, but, it appears, inevitably, we are courting disaster." Peterson being "down for the count" right around this crisis is smelly.
Half way in and I'm feeling at home. I often describe myself as being on the creative side of the fence. I really do take many conspiracies seriously. I've got a huge skeptical bent too though. I think our language and resultant missunderstanding often gets in the way and people are often too overwhelmed to discuss these things with an open mind. A favorite youtuber of mine coined a beautiful meme that I think should be part of current conversations. He called it "Dan Brown's Hammer". Basically it's the opposite of "Occam's Razor". The idea of it helps me stay sane.
I can understand the appeal in reducing things down to archetypal evil. When US governments wanted something done in the South Americas, they used to "send in the loons"...the loons were certain members of the CIA. "The loons" is certainly archetypal language.
You gentlemen talk like elite intellectuals that are locked in their own silver box! We live in a society where the free thinking open minded people are called crazy and the close minded is normal. I'll trust in my own intuition and questions ALL MAYA reality
I will say only that If you don't believe in spiritual aspect of life then you really don't know who we are and why we are here . If you did not understand that the world we live in is the world of duality where you choose your path , then you do not know what life really is .
Rebel Wisdom I'm surprised David Fuller seems to be trying to counter the problem of polarisation by combating extreme opposite views, and doesn't seem to understand that it is the promoting of dialogue between the two extreme poles that keeps us centred and balanced, by holding onto both at once. You can't remove the opposites, they are an unavoidable fact. And they are complimentary not conflicting, despite the tension. ☯️ More frequent dialogue, not less, is what's needed to remain centered. The polarisation itself is not the problem, it's the result of the problem. The problem is avoiding debate.
Yeah, I think John Vervaeke is the most over-rated of Rebel Wisdom's regular guests. He's a classic example of someone who never questioned his assumptions. Instead, he rushed out to solve an imagined problem.
This is based on anecdotal evidence but I think the reason most people dismiss conspiracy theorists is they often come across as emotionally perturbed. I think it's necessary to be skeptical but I think one needs to do the necessary emotional work in order to analyse any situation in a clearminded way. Also, from the conspiracy theorists I know I see that there is a tendency to believe that the evil workings of society are hidden from us when in reality the human condition is transparent to see and I would argue is more visible than ever before. Maybe we want to avoid some obvious shit
Isn't conspiracy just the same as corruption, just assuming people aren't openly boasting about filling their pockets? If they were called corruption theories would that be so absurd?
Man, I've been a huge fan of Rebel Wisdom since the start, but recently I've had some problems with it... 2018 and 2019 it felt like RW was really getting to the bottom of things. Recently it feels increasingly like mental gymnastics on the surface without really cutting deep. I've always liked Vervaeke but there's a troublesome sense here of implicitly accepting the given narrative. Maybe the reason that "conspiracy" is on the rise is because the media has been BS all along and a critical mass of people have begun to realize it?? The feeling of this video is surprisingly "game A" to my sensibilities. I still love what RW stands for but I hope they get back to that freewheeling sense of mind like in the Peterson/Ken Wilber days. Edit: I will say that I really enjoyed the talk with Charles Eisenstein, though I was a little surprised at the resistance to him. But it wasn't too bad.
It isn't necessary to posit flashy new cognitive theories about hyperactive pattern recognition among the vulnerable/threatened. It is only necessary to dig a little into history to see that the same people (the top oligarchs) are doing the same things, essentially, to the general population that they've been doing for centuries.
Funny how the official media response to conspiracies is being pointed out, and at the same time most speakers here do the exact same thing, especially Vervaeke. Nice work. You cannot stay intellectual, detached and dismissive and have any kind of meaningful dialog. Dialog means you get off the horse and have a horizontal discussion, equal to equal, respectful, not assuming you know the answer already. David, you have to do some soul searching and re-do this. Get dirty and honestly talk actual details.
....a bit like in the UK we have a jury of normal citizens ... why couldn't this film have included normal people (*some* of whom are in this comment thread :) ) who over the last few years have looked at the evidence and their intuition says something is seriously up with some of these elites! We rely on normal people to make big decisions in our society (in juries) so why not trust some of them to come on and say why they feel, lets say, that Building 7 falling down means 911 was in some sense an inside job or that child abuse and blackmail is how sociopathic elites organise themselves?
A masterclass of meaningless meta-masturbation dismissing the dawning of human awakening
Lol. This. :D
have you been watching too much porn? ;-)
Here! Here!
The host was ok. It's a very interesting vid all the same.
Well said.
What was irrational is that a simple office fire brought down buildings 7.
I probably wouldnt describe 2 passenger planes flying into skyscrapers as a 'simple office fire'
@@warbler1984 wtc7 collapsed on 9/11 due to "debris in the lower floors"
@@warbler1984 building 7 was never touched by the planes
No buiding can collapse through the path of maximal resistance at near freefall speed, unless all strenght is destroyed at the same time.
I am jumping up and down with glee. Yes! The obvious, in-your-face self evident facts of that event that are IGNORED boggles my mind. People--LOOK for yourself! Building 7, untouched, not involved, fell flat in its own footprint. You accept this???
By attempting to psychologize people's legitimate concerns about their safety from those who prey upon them you attempt to de-ligitimize and dismiss and thereby undercut their attempts to organize awareness and defense.
If not psychology then what ?
@BLUE DOG woooah that escalated quickly!
Thank you, Paul.
Rune Thorsen I agree, this part was the singular most measured of the entire 40 minute video. My complaint with the video is the disproportionate time and number of guests who in one way or another explained the pathology of the conspiracy “theorist.” As if anyone who questions the official narrative is somehow deluded.
@@warbler1984 It actually makes a lot of sense now that I think about it.. It's all about a power-dynamic.. Control.
I'm so grateful that Rebel Wisdom is recognising the need for discussion on this topic.
Unfortunately they engage the conversation so poorly.
This is the first time I’ve been really disappointed by a Rebel Wisdom video. I think a psychological and evolutionary analysis is so inadequate and incomplete. There is an enormous amount of power, information, and wealth inequality in the world - this is a fact. This alone lends itself to corruption and deceit via self preservation, preservation of status and power. We, by nature, have the potential for evil. Throw loads of power and money on that...... Also a fact, there is a mountain of evidence on corruption, intentional deceit, gross misuse of power, coverups, conflicts of interest, revolving doors, and so on, within and between governments, government agencies, corporations, and academia. Well documented over the years in books, documentaries, articles, declassified documents, whistleblowers. I wrote a research paper years ago on corruption and conflicts of interest in big pharma and academia and government regulatory agencies. Payoffs, buy offs, data fudging, very shady marketing, and on and on. There was so much evidence readily available to write the paper.....whole books written by what seemed to be conscientious doctors and insiders, etc. I don’t know how many of the narratives flying around are true or partially true or based on solid evidence, but there are definitely countless well documented ‘conspiracy’ facts. It is completely naive to look at the conspiracy theory situation from a largely psychological, survival point of view. Although I will say that I firmly believe it to be vitally important to cultivate discernment and sovereignty and inner guidance and grounding/anchoring in our direct felt experience. I do not personally dive deep into and dwell on and eat and breath conspiracy narratives. I find it to drain my energy. More fruitful to spend time cultivating the inward experience and relationship, finding wisdom and peace and solid ground and wholeness. This is the only safe place to navigate from as it doesn’t depend on control or certainty or conscious knowing or prediction for OK-ness.
Ditto. Disappointment--even annoyance. These are intelligent, thoughtful people. I know that Rebel Wisdom is CAPABLE of assembling a discussion that would engender exploration of ideas, instead of explain away "conspiracy theories" as mere psychological conditions...
@@Je-Lia Yeah, the amusing thing here is how many people are clinging to GROUP THINK and engaging in Stockholm Syndrome behavior :)
the point is to understand how it all works, not to assume knowing how it all works. "there is evil in the world" is an extremely fuzzy statement, even when it is true. if that is enough for you, you will change nothing.
Well. WTC7 has never been adequately explained. That's just for starters.
@@kenhiett5266 "office fires" are particularly hot and can melt steal. ;)
Ken Hiett Do some “opposition research,” and if you aren’t moved at all in your thinking, I’d be surprised. Try it. It takes courage. Peace.
Dr Judy Wood . 'Where Did The Go ? ' Evidence only , arguably the most important book of our time. .so far .
Public presentations can be seen on YT .
@@kenhiett5266 A Saudi living in a cave with a dialysis machine told NORAD to stand down . Now that's a bat shit crazy conspiracy theory.
I don't know what happened but I know what is not plausible.
It doesn't need explanation we all know exactly what happened. ((:
I was debating whether I'd bother watching this and decided to read the comments in order to glean the main points of the conversation. Wow, what intelligent comments. They expressed well my exact concerns, and why I was hesitant to watch in the first place. Great community!
My sentiments exactly ❤
Yep.
I could see Vervaeke's problem when I watched the episode with Zak. He's about as paranoid as they come.
Which is really ironic here...
@thomas oconnor
Well, thank you.
I think, however, that he is paranoid about anything that sounds emphatic. Except for his own perspective, of course. He couldn't tolerate Zak using religious language - even tho it was more or less hyperbole - because of the "danger!!" of the slippery slope into religiosity. The Conspiracy Talk is similar. I think he is coming out of a Milieu or a Collective (or "reality tunnel") who were in agreement about these things and he just hasn't been challenged about it in a healthy way. I think he needs to talk less and listen more and find out that this is not a matter of degrees, but a problem that can be seen from above - as in: meta - as most of these things can - and now must be because all of us need more information in order to make good decisions.
At the same time - and this is what I was hoping for in this video - those of us who are aware of the facts about Conspiracies need to do the same thing and stop just saying that the "Opposition" is wrong and congratulating ourselves about being right. We too need to look at the two extremes and say:
_"When so-and-so said that people who believe in Conspiracies are "irrational", my brain shut off and I felt afraid and angry because it seems like so-and-so can't see the "clear and present danger" that is hiding in plain sight and brainwashing our population so they can't make good decisions when it's time to vote, etc... and so now I can't take anything so-and-so says seriously and we can't have a conversation. So-and-so seems completely alien to me now. Is so-and-so content with this result? Does so-and-so have the same experience when I talk about what I 'believe?' Do I state things in such a way as to insult the intelligence of my "opponents?" I wish I understood how they could come to the conclusions they come to if they are supposedly endowed with the same reasoning capabilities that I am. But if we can't have a conversation, how I can I learn this? How can we both talk so that we can both learn something?"_
He, for one, needs to stop blocking out the blatantly obvious fact that trauma-motivated pattern recognition also gives rise to most of the Systems Thinking and problem solving that he is usually so fond of. People have been actually solving actual problems this way since we were just "monkeys". The fact that some of the visible patterns correlate with the territory and some don't is not something individuals have much control over. We can't just shame and forbid people for trying to solve problems after they've been traumatized. Instead we need to compassionately offer to take them by the hand and walk into the territory with them to see if the patterns they see are really there or not. Because, honestly, tomorrow, we will need someone to do the same for us. Unless we are just so privileged that we are never traumatized about anything.
"Do-you-see-what-I-see" (scaled up in proportion to how big of a threat is perceived) is the tried and true way to figure out what is real. Someone in an office surrounded by books cannot tell me if my neighbor hates me and plots with my other neighbors to try and hurt me or not. Nor are they qualified to tell me whether or not "agents" working for "The Powers That Be" started the "Social Justice Movement" in order to undermine Unity in _true_ Social Justice Groups * And if they try, they will just make an idiot of themselves.
* Did I just say that?
Oh, dear....
"It's not 'Conspiracy Theory', it's Deep State !" - Dr. Shiva Ayyadurai
That guy is great
Replace “conspiracy” with “official narrative” and it flows nearly perfectly in the other direction.
Sorry to be off topic but does someone know a trick to get back into an Instagram account..?
I was dumb lost my account password. I would love any tips you can offer me.
@Cayson Emilio Instablaster :)
@Landon Beckham Thanks for your reply. I got to the site thru google and Im trying it out now.
Looks like it's gonna take quite some time so I will get back to you later with my results.
@Landon Beckham It worked and I actually got access to my account again. I'm so happy!
Thank you so much you saved my ass !
@Cayson Emilio happy to help :D
Here my poetic take on John’s scientific take on pattern recognition: I’ve entitled the following poem “Hints That Convince”:
Human beings are pattern recognition machines
Patterns here
Patterns there
Patterns everywhere
What do they mean
Are they promises
Are they warnings
Are they predicting the unforeseen
Look at those numbers
Those stars
Those cards
Those hints
That convince of conspiracy
Leaves in a cup of tea
Who's that hiding in the bread mould
Could it be the God of old
Is that His face staring at me
Who else could it be
Maybe His mother Mary
Three good things in a row
On a winning streak
Don't change your lucky socks
Don't change your lucky shoes
Don't change your lucky anything
Patterns here
Patterns there
Patterns everywhere
Intuitions
Superstitions
Apparitions
All manifestations of a beautiful mind's obsession
With pattern recognition
Great poem. who's the author? is there a recital? I would love to listen to it.
Anatoly Yevtushenko, I wrote the poem. I don’t really consider myself a poet. This one like the other 99 I have written are more like meditations. They just come to me after a long period of reflection on a particular topic.
@@garycleave9565 if i could suggest changing the last line to "with facial recognition"
As the host alluded to initially, the whole construct "conspiracy theory " is highly biased. How would this whole topic be different without that laughably biased term? How would it be if each time we said instead, "independent thinkers"? E.g., "in a crisis when people feel a loss of control, they are more likely to become independent thinkers, " etc.
Or how pattern recognition leads to a loss of control and insecurity by finding out what is really going on.
Good point.
I think it would have been much more useful to directly attack the facts and arguments with better facts and better arguments rather than producing this long and painful ad hominem speech. In the end all you're doing is speculating on a metaphysical level, which is quite the opposite of an honest and grounded approach.
this is exactly the point of informational warfare. sometimes seemingly better facts and better arguments are *not* better facts and better arguments. or, wait... is this irony?
Go back to Daily life. Here is the answer. Brian Rose talked to David Ick about 5g's relationship with covid19. That episode was banned from different platforms. What do they censor the Other narrative?
Hypothesis 1: They censor the other narrative because they don't want the truth getting out.
Hypothesis 2: They censor the other narrative because it's dangerous misinformation which will harm people.
Doesn't really prove much either way.
@@iAmTheSquidThing they censor. So they do what they want. No one can censor them. They are authoritarians.
I was very grateful to have this subject addressed. And so well. Until I read the comments I didn’t understand why you might be nervous...
Jacadz Ditto!
Some people are very upset it would seem.
“Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t after you.” - Kurt Cobain
bea N That essence has been rolling around in my head since I watched this vid. Thanks for putting it “on paper.”
Ain’t it frustrating to watch them dance around it, lost in their own certainty?
@@werquantum , yeah, that's a great quote, isn't? I've always loved it. I didn't feel any certainty though in the video. Looking at conspiracy theories from a brand new angle took some balls in my opinion. I think they kind of reversed this quote and what they are trying to say is something like 'In certain instances they are indeed after you, but watch out, bro, be aware that you are paranoid by nature.'
Well, he would've known.
"It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
- J. Krishnamurti
Zeitgeist Addendum.
Conspiracy is a belief. What is missing in this video is addressing what are the logic to reach their conspiracy? Someone tells me this is what is really happening, this conspiracy X. Immediately, I am not interested if this conspiracy X is true or not, which is a belief, but rather, I will ask, "What made you come to this conclusion?" And through critical thinking get to the basic assumptions, facts, and interpretations.
They should not be called conspiracy theorists
This was coined by the cia
Do your homework
He works for the CIA
39:12 'In the midst of starvation, and plague, and literal military siege, you have Socrates and Plato and the birth of an entirely new way of understanding reality that took the axial revolution throughout the world.' - John Vervaeke
That new way of understanding was itself a conspiracy by Plato , which is my conspiracy theory...:)
I hope this quotation is intended as irony. If so : LOL.
10:00 With all due respect to a great scientist, there's something very important all those armchair scientists are missing. It's not just enhanced pattern recognition with all it's false positives. False positives are always part of the normal brain activity. That's how human brain works. It's noisy and chaotic and throws lot of errors, constantly. That's not the point.
Something else, something very significant happens when your brain is certain you're being hunted. You will enter a whole different mode of operation. You will develop completely new abilities that work in reality. For example, you'll suddenly develop an ability to sense if somebody's standing behind you looking at you. That's very common and reported by many people. You turn around, and there he is, an actual person you've never met before who was sent to follow you. It's so bizarre you often can't even explain how you did it, but the results nevertheless, are real.
All the experiments designed by the scientists who never experienced any of this, will of course exclude any possibility for any such "side effects". Once your methodology is not designed to register those phenomenon, how can you register them? Of course you won't. That's always the trouble with "armchair science", no matter how smart are the scientists analyzing the collected data afterwards. Because it's already worthless, sterile and therefore not representative of the reality out there.
If something so [biologically] complex and costly like the right hemisphere of the human brain evolved as a defense mechanism against predation, wouldn't it follow from the basic laws of the evolution theory that it had to produce significant practical advantages for the specimen? There has to be at least one, or maybe more, mechanisms generated by it that actually work and give practical results. It's obvious to anyone who knows how Darwin's theory works...
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it” ~Aristotle
The other day I told someone close to me that I was enjoying wearing my ‘Keep it Surreal’ shirt. Having spent years on the edge and come back from it, I find myself calm in the center of the storm. I’m not insensitive to the suffering and fear, and don’t hold any position or belief of immunity. There are things we can and can’t control, just as there are things we can know and not know. Two worlds colliding. I’ll leave the science of the virus up to the ones studying it and apply my common sense vs. adopting an either/or mindset. The truth is all around, and I can remain open minded with a healthy dose of skepticism, while not needing to convince or be convinced of anything. I understand enough about consciousness to see how we are where we are, and it comes down to each individual eventually seeing the interconnectedness, or not...but separating themselves from it. We bounce off each other in a dance, but at the same time our realities are our own. There is pattern in everything, and we are linked like rings on a chain. What I give meaning to, shows up for me in peculiar ways. Specific number sequences that freeze long enough for me to notice, other times hitting a pause button, there it is again...and so on. Energetically felt responses (resonance) in the body, regardless of distance. Observations repeating often enough to keep it interesting; curious, but no longer begging to be answered.
Ther's a pattern in the numbers too. Covid19 is not more dangerous than a common flu. The lockdown however will destroy millions of lives and condemn whole societies to slavery.
Raw Garlic It’s an endless argument between patterns being random vs. ordered. It’s one of those truths we cannot know. I’ve surmised there is an intelligent design we can’t comprehend in this “reality.” Do I think lockdown is wise? There isn’t a singular answer to that. As with most things, it’s layered. Which is why most arguments are too one sided to see past the nose of the one making it. The answer is in the middle. Open it up, and expect everyone to fall in line and follow common sense protocol. Good luck with that. Keep it closed, and watch the devastation unfold. The death toll could rise either way. No one seems to be able to agree. History of the world on repeat. I’ll do my part, if everyone else does theirs.
Edited to add: A blanket statement that Covid is not more deadly than the flu doesn’t fit either. Because to some, it clearly is. We just don’t know why yet.
Rebel wisdom, the most needed channel on youtube. Thank you so much for your work! I'm sure im not the only one who's mental health was saved by this fantastic channel and thinkers.
Thank you both for asking the right questions! Fundamental for understanding the world and ourselves in it. Congratulations and great appreciation for the podcasts you are doing during these crisis times.
David, another great episode. I so appreciate what you are doing here and all those who have given their time, energy, and minds to contribute to your channel. This brings hope into a very opaque reactive modern mindset. Bravo!
Can you even attempt sound sense making about conspiracies without once mentioning Snowden or Assange. I liked Daniels take in the previous video but this one felt unbalanced.
Rebel Wisdom just gingerly trod in a hornets nest. haha. Keep up the good work.
There is an answer to everything!
Human nature has a need to answer questions especially when things don't add up!
This was the best presentation I've seen so far about how psychologically we can try to approach this major period of uncertainty.
Why should we make meaning in this crisis? This crisis is a potent opportunity to face naked reality without negative or positive narratives. The courageous and obvious step is to drop both the conspiracy theories and the security blanket of meaning. It's easy to do. Firstly, face the fact that encountering naked reality is inevitable because there is no absolute security. Then get comfortable with the underlying feelings rather than reacting to them by clinging to conspiracies or meaning. We assume that if we uncover a conspiracy, then we will be able to create security, or if we create meaning, then we will be able to cope with insecurity. Neither of those assumptions is true. Instead, we can just directly face the insecurity of naked reality because it is what it is. Fortunately, you will find that openness to naked reality feels ecstatic because it is expansive, unlike conspiracies, and it is true, unlike created meanings.
If you think that understanding what is happening creates a sense of security, you don't have a clue. It's frightening.
"There is no conspiracy to overthrow White, European, Christian Civilization. Now go practice meditation, yoga and Tai chi to fix that paranoia"!
If anyone is trying to wrap life up in a little box it would be the men on today’s show. In contrast with Schmactenberger, who encouraged people to use critical thinking and ask questions. He had more of a philosophic approach, which seemed less judgmental and fixed. The two things I agree with in this video are that information/knowledge is liberating and that some people have an overactive and overreaching propensity for pattern recognition. I personally experienced someone telling me a mattress company was satanic because of the molecular structure in the company’s logo. They thought it was the adrenochrome molecule. When I told them it was a honeycomb pattern that is used in the mattress structure and showed them the two molecules side by side, it was not enough to change their perception. Anyway, in this video the psychological paradigm doesn’t explain everything, and it most definitely leaves out spiritual well-being or the search for happiness. In Schmactenberger’s video, one doesn’t get the sense he is trying to poo-poo conspiracy theorists unlike the psychologists in this video, nor does he come across as omniscient. In the end, I enjoyed the variety of exchanges!! Thank you. Good job. Keep it going!
Fascinating and wide-ranging. I wish it had been mentioned more fairly that there is a grain of truth to be gleaned from most conspiracy theories. Thank you for ending strongly with John Vervaeke.
It's interesting to view this pandemic through the lens of another psychologist's theory, Jon Haidt. His theory of personality traits relationship to the differing left/right approaches to managing borders suggests it relates to sensitivity to disgust, which is itself rooted in an evolutionary mechanism for handling disease; what to keep in, what to keep out.
The current left/right political infighting surprised me, I thought maybe a pandemic might bring us together, but maybe this explains why this isn't happening.
Ordinarily the left like to remove borders and the right like to build them up, yet during this pandemic these approaches of the left and right have been scrambled, and in some cases switched to the opposite.. the emotional response of the left and their social concerns has made them very pro borders, at a level of country, house (lockdown) and body. The right seems more inclined to open up businesses after their initial lockdown etc, perhaps because their lower emotional response is not overriding facts and evidence so much, offering a less shortsighted view, maybe?
Trump is an interesting case seen through this lens, since he is both strong on borders and the economy, and his reaction to lockdown has - much like an overactive immune system - damaged its own system; the economy, and now he wants to open up the lockdown for business which is criticised largely by the left, who want their extreme borders (country borders, house borders ie lockdown, body borders ie masks etc) left in place. Interesting, I thought.
I don't think it's quite as simple as Haidt may possibly have predicted. Since during an actual pandemic, it seems like one trait considerably influences the general traits of left-open borders, right-big borders. It is only at a general, macro level that the left/right tendencies seem to demonstrate a consistent difference between left and right on borders, but during an actual threat of disease, these approaches get totally scrambled by other traits in each group.
I thought that Schmactenberger and Vervæke (especially at the end) were really valuable and prescient in their interpretations.
Jules Evans' contributions... not so much. He tries to explain the occult wave of last century by saying it was simply a response to the catastrophe of WW1. Actually it predated WW1 by about twenty years and its heyday was around the turn of the century. He also said Teilhard de Chardin was a Eugenicist, which is debatable. Certainly he was a man of his time and held views which we’d find anachronistic- but he wasn’t a Eugenicist in the popular sense of the word. Evans also straw-mans the side that argues that we’re in the midst of a ‘great awakening’, in a way that I feel supports his own empiricist/materialist skepticism rather that being an objective analysis. Why doesn’t he choose to engage the views of someone like Charles Eisenstein rather than whomever he chose?
Thanks for an interesting discussion guys 🙏
The gentleman at circa 30:26 on considerations on dissemination of information.....all quite true but equally applies to our MSM, press and politicians. Are we suggesting the proles set the bar higher than their caring and loving benefactors..... there's a conflict of all sorts right there!
It seems like most of these speakers are certain that there is nothing to any of these alternative views. Whatever one things about the conditions that bring about these alternative views is sort of secondary in light of this. How can this perspective be unbiased then? Must it all be impossible? I thought we were to "be humble about truth claims"? I could guess that this may be an editing or interview design issue rather than the speakers being as certain as they appear.
Interesting to see how most people really didn't enjoy your work with this episode. Even more interesting to notice how balanced, fair and unbiased you normally are on your reporting, only to forget about all those values with such important topic. I dont think this was unintended.
You cannot say some conspiracy theories are unlikely to be true because people Want to believe in them..
The want to believe in something is not a variable that effects the validity of a theory.
I miss Eric Weinsteins perspective on this topic. You should have included him.
lol
Again, John Vervaeke is so pertinent 🙏
As I write this there are about 20% unfavorable votes for this discussion, which is high for a Rebel Wisdom podcast. Sadly, that's a pretty good metric that even among the Rebel Wisdom audience, there are an awful lot of people who don't understand what 'makes us tick'. When justified skepticism morphs into not just easy answers but easy answers featuring a "bad" guy, it's time to turn that skepticism on oneself. And, for us humans, that's easier said than done.
I only found out about your work a couple of weeks ago and have really been enjoying a lot of your shows, mainly due to the fact that they are open and allow for discussion. The mental gymnastics that you are capable of and have shown in previous work and interviews is completely gone when the subject is a hot conspiracy theory!? I find that hard to believe, which really opens a lot of questions to you and your work.
Fascinating discussion. Since it is my practice to break down intellectual conversation to something a farmer might say: My Dad used to tell the story of the donkey that was tied between two bales of hay and couldn't decide which to eat and so starved to death. "Do something, even if it's wrong," my Dad used to say. He was recognizing the necessity of a goal for action and just what these folks are talking about - that we need to establish an order in chaos. He was also recognizing that the "something" one moved toward might be "wrong" and have to be adjusted. My Dad was not a "simple farmer." He was a blue collar intellectual and capable of critical thinking - though he was also likely to make axiomatic suppositions based on the family religious beliefs (which could lead down some crazy rabbit holes). So, bottom line for me: Hopefully, we exercise critical thinking in choosing which bale of hay to eat. It is good to understand that, as these interview subjects say: many people are not well educated in critical thinking, have little experience with it, and may be prone to wildly diving down rabbit holes. It's wise to settle down, but you may also need to crawl down a few rabbit holes to adequately suss them out and mine the nuggets of gold.
Truthstream media has a great video on initiating rituals just put up also hot mic peice on from Whitehouse press core from yesterday
Thank you wonderful people - everything is feeling so surreal!!! , , ,
Nice episode and good to see someone is making connections - trying to collate many different minds and ways of thinking / viewing points into one.
Not only did much of Mr. Vervaeke's attempt at explanation not follow a logical and coherent sequence, but he was incredibly condescending, seemingly without being aware of it. He should apply at the New York Times.
Thanks RW for defusing the ‘c-bomb’ with typical courage and compassion
Trust no one but your own intuition
Well, love the discussion - but that Julian Evans guy definitely needs to take some DMT before claiming that non-duality/Connectedness is just an occult ego thing or the result of some pattern recognition. Thats just very bad sensemaking in my opinion...its funny that he ends his statement with the notion of "epistiological humility" but doesnt really apply it himself.
He has already, he mentioned he'd recently taken Aya at a talk I attended of his last year.
Alex Jones also often discusses the power of human free will, that we're not meant to be slaves, that we are connected and destined for higher purpose etc.
" Democracy" is a concept that is given to us to believe that we are free to choose the people that are going to choose the best for us .
So people can you name at least one government in human history that have been doing exactly that???
And we blindly mast believe that the billionaires are giving their money to find the salvation for the people if we stay isolated and don't speak or criticize anything because we are being paid from governments while the economy is crashing down everywhere????
The reality that they have been created for us, is the source of any conspiracy .
I love this show,
you guys are awesome,
you're the self-appointed, new generation, good illuminati, and you know it :)
keep up the good work :)
This discussion was seemingly thorough and mostly lazy. You can do better.
I go on intuition and sense what's good or evil and same with people I sense their energy. Same with gvt leaders institutions. Some would call it paranoia but I've had a safe comfortable healthy life so my own personal barometer works for me.
Machiavelli said that the perfect conspiracy is a conspiracy of one, as complexity multiplies quickly whenever you add another co-conspirator. As someone who tends more to discount conspiracies that I hear expressed, it is more because the more complex and detailed the conspiracy, the more outlandish it sounds to me. Still, and in spite of many of the comments below, thank you for this video! I am not always sure where you are going as a group, but this video and subject gives me some new things to chew on. Much appreciated.
How about a simple explanation that there is absolutely no intellectual debate on MSM anymore therefore anyone with half a brain will seek good debate on the alternative media.
Jung wrote his dissertation on Occult Phenomenon. So thats cool.
Indeed Gary academia could do with getting there act together and give the good doctor a voice. That what has been happening in the last hundred years since einstines theory is the collective searching for the pre established harmoney that drove the pre biblical world. Father son holy spirit and the other one
Thank you David, John, Carl, Jules and Alexander.
this is confusing and not helpfull at all ! framing it otherwise is dishonest and lazy!
Brilliant as always!
Just curious why you chose the black sun as your logo?
You are fools. The whole thing behind 5G is not saying that the technology causes Corona. We know for a fact that both the American and Chinese governments are desperate to create a monitoring/surveillance system and to commodify personal data, for the purposes of security and market control. The only way to do this is to have a high bandwith network that tracks human movements and behaviours in real time. A global pandemic is the perfect scenario to further this plan. Like Charles Eisenstein said, it's an Epidemic of Control.
Made it to about 30 mins. RW has led me to some great thinkers. I ALWAYS like to gather as much info on a topic as possible. This ones tough for me though, the truth is much stranger than most can even conceive of...
using the term "schizo" is somehow worse than calling people conspiracy theorists. Like if people are feeling afraid and grasping for answers, at LEAST they are trying to understand something instead of ignoring it. Why would you ever use this word? probably to deter people from believing others when they are discussing something that is disturbing to them... nobody wants to be considered schizo.
What worries me when I hear these kind of talks, as stated in previous comments, is that these experts of a particular field are projecting their own perspective and knowledge upon conspiracy theories without having studied the array of potential conspiracy theories in depth. I have been studying for around four years now. And when the dots add up, and you see the true horrors of the world, our history and future, you need everyone else to become aware asap. But they are lost, sadly. Yet believe you are manic and lost yourself. Project mockingbird has worked miracles!
If people could appreciate the moment and the experiences more, we as a people and our planet could be so much healthier. Stuff doesn’t make you happy; journeys and life experiences do. Consumption is the opposite of how we should live. The native Americans were the closest to understanding that.
I loosely describe myself as a Christian. I feel that my relationship with Gods love has deepened during quarantine. I’m usually a high anxiety sort of man, but through this, I’m feeling held in my inner self. Peace.
Incredible insight- I’ve had to find a healthy skepticism rather than the paranoia that was threatening me despite loss of much recently
Consensus narrative might be a more helpful term, as that would bring all paradigms, cultural, scientific into the same arena. Career scientists or politicians might take issue with that, but that would be a healthy thing as it's only our egos being singed at its edges. From this collective space the only debate would be what narrative has the most coherence and pragmatic value.
Sometimes I think higher education these days is just another propaganda track where you are not taught to think critically but to regurgitate the ideas of accepted former thinkers. I felt this discussion was not open to the changing paradigm and dangerously close to pathologizing people accepting changing narratives. I don’t have a uni degree but was hoping for more.
Cheers for the upload. It looks interesting and is desperately needed by me right now... “Think it ain’t illegal yet”
The majority of people are finding patterns in the mainstream too and the majority believe the mainstream not so called conspiracy theories. Even though they are just another point of view. Not a conspiracy theory.
This comment thread is brilliant, and sad.
The mental gymnastics people go through to defend their ego against admitting they were tricked is stunning. Admitting you can’t read a genome chart and believing COV19 is a GMV or not understanding the basic difference between ionizing and non-ionizing radiation and thinking 5G is causing this mess seems basically impossible.
I know that latching on to a conspiracy theory, because it contains a villain, one that we can stop and make whatever is happening go away is seductive. ‘Nature did it’ is much more frightening than ‘bad guys did it’ because we can stop a villain. We can’t stop evolution or natural selection.
Does the real psychology behind psychologists own theories on the psychology of conspiracy theories show that their own theories only apply to their own theories?
Are the psychologists just psychologically projecting?
It is you who are looking for "meaning" using "pattern recognition" to fit them into your own preexisting overarching theories you find meaningful, whereas conspiracy theorists are looking for the facts. Their concern is truth, not meaning.
No matter how close John gets to the camera or waves his hands around changes that fact. No amount of conflating the psychology of conspiracy theories with LSD experiences will help you make a true, practical or meaningful point.
Conspiracy theorists deal head on with facts, wisely; armchair psychologists deal in pure theory.
Wise up, Rebel.
Like the interviews do not think the image honours the depth
Have David and Alexander become housemates so they can carry on making content during lockdown? That's some real commitment.
Although some very thought provoking points. I think this video did undermine any questioning of the official story. There's a lot of evidence that things are not as they seem. It's a minefield trying to decider that. How would rebel wisdom respond to the views of Dr shiva and Robert Kennedy. It would be very useful to see a video you go through some of their points. It could act as a tutorial in fact checking so we can then continue the work. I look forward to your thoughts
So how you dismiss the accounts of whistleblowers, who have exposed data and evidence that was kept secret?
I don't understand how Jung can be brought up so much on this channel with such a little understanding of his work. It baffles me.. Jordan Peterson really did his job well man...
I've been going through a hard time lately because of the "out of the shadows" video. It confirmed trails that I had pursued on my own... Trails I had sniffed out from looking into hollywoods story plots, more so then the symbology. Really spooked my ass to see the video framed the way it was.. Felt like it exposed only 10% of the real deal.. and in a way in which pointed a finger at all mysticism.
I had been aware that many big time shows and movies in Hollywood had a gnostic themed plot.. Well I take that back actually. I was aware that there was a reoccurring pattern taking place in the shows I was interested in. It took several heart wrenching experiences, and quite a bit of study in psychology until I discovered the Jung was all up in Hollywood.
I became pretty polarized after discovering this... Master and his Emissary didn't help.. Something about humans spending thousands of hours watching a box that shows them a story about themselves really fucked with me. Maybe it's because I believe, like others, that the BLACK SCREEN in general has effects on the brain that give rise to unhealthy distancing.. IDK FULLY.
One thing I DO KNOW is that Jordan Peterson should be questioned. His rise to fame from that MAINSTREAM media outlet we all keep bashing should be looked at very closely!
My biggest thing about Peterson is his promotion of eating meat.. going so far as to claiming that daily meat intake has healed his daughter, and himself... Take away his headaches or some shit? Yeah.. he blasted that on Joe Rogan.. Animal industry gold right there. Tell a bunch of agro males that eating meat is the answer to health problems after you pump them up.. Beautiful work.
How many Gnostics where vegetarian? As above, so below, as within, so without. You can't connect to the power of mother (shadow) until you understand what you do to her. Period.
Also on Peterson... his promoting electronics to save us... I just can't handle it man.... Here is a quote from "Man and his Symbols" By Jung:
"Our intellect has created a new world that dominates nature, and has populated it with monstrous machines. The latter are so indubitably useful that we cannot see even a possibility of getting rid of them or our subservience to them. Man is bound to follow the adventurous promptings of his scientific and inventive mind and to admire himself for his splendid achievements. At the same time, his genius shows the uncanny tendency to invent things that become more and more dangerous, because they represent better and better means for wholesale suicide.
In view of the rapidly increasing avalanche of world population, man has already begun to seek ways and means of keeping the rising flood at bay. But nature may anticipate all our attempts by turning against man his own creative mind. The H-bomb, for instance, would put an effective stop to overpopulation. In spite of our proud domination of nature, we are still her victims, for we have not even learned to control our own nature. Slowly, but, it appears, inevitably, we are courting disaster."
Peterson being "down for the count" right around this crisis is smelly.
Look at the pigs in china!!! Everything centers around our diet. Actions have to be in unison with beliefs.
Half way in and I'm feeling at home.
I often describe myself as being on the creative side of the fence. I really do take many conspiracies seriously.
I've got a huge skeptical bent too though. I think our language and resultant missunderstanding often gets in the way and people are often too overwhelmed to discuss these things with an open mind.
A favorite youtuber of mine coined a beautiful meme that I think should be part of current conversations. He called it "Dan Brown's Hammer".
Basically it's the opposite of "Occam's Razor".
The idea of it helps me stay sane.
I can understand the appeal in reducing things down to archetypal evil. When US governments wanted something done in the South Americas, they used to "send in the loons"...the loons were certain members of the CIA. "The loons" is certainly archetypal language.
This comment section provides fascinating research material, for any researchers out there.
You gentlemen talk like elite intellectuals that are locked in their own silver box!
We live in a society where the free thinking open minded people are called crazy and the close minded is normal. I'll trust in my own intuition and questions ALL MAYA reality
I will say only that
If you don't believe in spiritual aspect of life then you really don't know who we are and why we are here .
If you did not understand that the world we live in is the world of duality where you choose your path , then you do not know what life really is .
Rebel Wisdom
I'm surprised David Fuller seems to be trying to counter the problem of polarisation by combating extreme opposite views, and doesn't seem to understand that it is the promoting of dialogue between the two extreme poles that keeps us centred and balanced, by holding onto both at once.
You can't remove the opposites, they are an unavoidable fact. And they are complimentary not conflicting, despite the tension. ☯️
More frequent dialogue, not less, is what's needed to remain centered.
The polarisation itself is not the problem, it's the result of the problem. The problem is avoiding debate.
"a wise man knows that theres nothing that he knows"
Can't watch the dude in the red shirt...
His thoughts are very concise he is simply more emotional than the other speakers
Yeah, I think John Vervaeke is the most over-rated of Rebel Wisdom's regular guests. He's a classic example of someone who never questioned his assumptions. Instead, he rushed out to solve an imagined problem.
It’s called conspirituality. I think there is a scholarly religious paper written about it.
This is based on anecdotal evidence but I think the reason most people dismiss conspiracy theorists is they often come across as emotionally perturbed. I think it's necessary to be skeptical but I think one needs to do the necessary emotional work in order to analyse any situation in a clearminded way. Also, from the conspiracy theorists I know I see that there is a tendency to believe that the evil workings of society are hidden from us when in reality the human condition is transparent to see and I would argue is more visible than ever before. Maybe we want to avoid some obvious shit
Isn't conspiracy just the same as corruption, just assuming people aren't openly boasting about filling their pockets? If they were called corruption theories would that be so absurd?
Human extinction is not far away! Too many weak, cowardliness and stupid people out there and the powerful ones EVILNESS is out of control!
I like the mention of Stan Groff
It’s amazing how many imaginary dragons are called “they”.
Man, I've been a huge fan of Rebel Wisdom since the start, but recently I've had some problems with it... 2018 and 2019 it felt like RW was really getting to the bottom of things. Recently it feels increasingly like mental gymnastics on the surface without really cutting deep. I've always liked Vervaeke but there's a troublesome sense here of implicitly accepting the given narrative. Maybe the reason that "conspiracy" is on the rise is because the media has been BS all along and a critical mass of people have begun to realize it?? The feeling of this video is surprisingly "game A" to my sensibilities. I still love what RW stands for but I hope they get back to that freewheeling sense of mind like in the Peterson/Ken Wilber days.
Edit: I will say that I really enjoyed the talk with Charles Eisenstein, though I was a little surprised at the resistance to him. But it wasn't too bad.
I agree to disagree, Vervaeke is the greatest gift RW gave me
Great comments here :)
It isn't necessary to posit flashy new cognitive theories about hyperactive pattern recognition among the vulnerable/threatened. It is only necessary to dig a little into history to see that the same people (the top oligarchs) are doing the same things, essentially, to the general population that they've been doing for centuries.
Funny how the official media response to conspiracies is being pointed out, and at the same time most speakers here do the exact same thing, especially Vervaeke. Nice work. You cannot stay intellectual, detached and dismissive and have any kind of meaningful dialog. Dialog means you get off the horse and have a horizontal discussion, equal to equal, respectful, not assuming you know the answer already. David, you have to do some soul searching and re-do this. Get dirty and honestly talk actual details.
....a bit like in the UK we have a jury of normal citizens ... why couldn't this film have included normal people (*some* of whom are in this comment thread :) ) who over the last few years have looked at the evidence and their intuition says something is seriously up with some of these elites! We rely on normal people to make big decisions in our society (in juries) so why not trust some of them to come on and say why they feel, lets say, that Building 7 falling down means 911 was in some sense an inside job or that child abuse and blackmail is how sociopathic elites organise themselves?