What Happened to Jordan Peterson? Ken Wilber
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- čas přidán 12. 07. 2022
- In this conversation with Rebel Wisdom's David Fuller, Ken Wilber reflects on the turbulent dynamics of the last few years, and particularly the trajectory of the figures in what was called the Intellectual Dark Web (IDW) including Jordan Peterson and Dave Rubin.
This is released shortly after a recent Substack piece by David Fuller called 'What Happened to Jordan Peterson?': rebelwisdom.substack.com/p/wh...
Ken Wilber is the creator of Integral theory, it attempts to place a wide diversity of theories and models into one single framework. The basis is a "spectrum of consciousness," from archaic consciousness to ultimate spirit, presented as a developmental model.
Very grateful to Dan Hammond for the audio mix.
This is a follow up to conversations we recorded back in 2019, which were published as:
Ken Wilber: 'Jordan Peterson and the evolution of thought': • Ken Wilber: 'Jordan Pe...
Ken Wilber: The Intellectual Dark Web, an Integral Conversation? • Ken Wilber: The Intell...
I want Ken Wilber and Jordan Peterson to sit down in the same room NOW!!!
Nah it would be aweful, worse than Jordan and Sam Harris.
He needs to sit back down with Vervaeke, and he'd do well to listen more next time
🙏❤️🔥
@@michaelnice93 - Yes, perhaps Ken would play the coward like Sam did, but it would be good to give it a try.
@@michaelnice93 sorry just our of pure curiosity: why was JP and Harris awful?
At around minute 55 Ken starts speaking about his legacy. He articulates his ideas with so much compassion and inclusiveness. Brilliant.
Thank you Thank you so much for this ❤ I had really loved Dr. Peterson’s thought until now. Please Mr. Fuller please keep going with whatever capacity you can handle. YOU are a gift to so many. I think that your understanding and Ken Wilbers work are CRUCIAL AND SALVIFIC for future generations. Ken Wilburs work needs to be taught at ALL Universities as a required course. Even as a major. I wish I could become an expert at his work and then TEACH IT (experientially I have done my inner work a feel that I am at the Unitive Stage of development) .
Thank you both. Good to see Ken looking so well and always evolving 🦋🍏
What I find fascinating is the reverse engineering that many undertake using intellectual and scientific rationalisations to justify a ubiquitous, tribal, emotionally driven cultural position. The overarching narrative and context is one of conflict as opposed to a collective journey towards understanding.
Post-modernism describes an opaque complexity of meaning and with the removal of guiding meta-narratives, from which we erect scaffolding to support our fragile connection to a shared reality, our ability to make sense of our world becomes much harder. The emphasis being on the individual, rather than power structures and institutions to provide meaning. And it’s fragile in the sense that the individual is limited in their knowledge and experience with regard to that complexity and so trust in shared information becomes crucial.
The problem is without agreed direction on our development, progress, in the classic sense of moving towards Utopian ideals, essentially becomes meaningless as well. What I’m seeing is a linguistic maelstrom of misdirected interpretation, a folding and bending of reality that reflects our emotional or spiritual experience. This gets conflated with ideology, politics and culture because this emotional confusion is being exploited by the myriad, fractured forces at play.
We’re clearly missing something, and it’s tangible in the way our communities and values and shared human experience is being disrupted, but my question would be is “culture” as we see it today, really providing us with what we as human beings need? I don’t see “culture wars”. I see a fractilasition of ideas and meaning. In that the deeper you look, patterns are reflected throughout, but the overall structure is fundamentally chaotic. Those patterns correlate to our instinctual need for connection, spiritual nourishment, community and collective organisation, so prevalent in our primate make up, but the current culture, rather than bringing us closer to these things, acts as a cypher, moving us instead, further and further away from what we really desire.
Interesting points you make. Maybe Culture as such is the enemy of real insight, especially in the battlefield. Of the present, where we cling to our personalized maps of reality, as egos are wont to do. Group guru is a still valid approach to the epistemic wasteland, though it will always be limited by an inevitable lack of broad wavelengths. And so we proceed, mostly blind, but with one eye half open
So beautifully put
Most people externalize their difficulty in life. It's comforting to think we would be happy and moral, if it weren't for other people. But the battle is always within the self. Imagine these poor fellows too afraid to look the enemy in face, simply because it is their own face, and they can't confront how they have fooled themselves. Compassion is the key, without it you cannot be humane, you can't be good. The reason Yeshua Nazarene said the commandment to live your neighbor had changed, and was now to love thy enemy, is the realization of divinity found in forgiving the self, and therefore everyone else, and this is a necessity for healing and growth, we forgive ourselves our own mistakes when you forgive others their quite similar mistakes.you don't accept the wrong doing, you rescue the person, from within the dysfunction, this seperate yourself from wrongdoing also. This is integral to rational understanding of human interaction. Humans make mistakes, the sin is in rationalizing and justifying wrong doing. That's when you soil the purity of your soul. If wrongdoing is necessary, you must do it, but you must acknowledge and repudiate that evil, not aggrandize it and yourself as good for it. It's difficult, but we get better as a species everyday, we had nowhere to go but up, lol may all suffering be reduced. May all waring factions learn the truth of their familial obligations and the immense assets of having a family of 8 billion people. Imagine the wonder if that family if it were to show it's love. That taste in your mouth is the product of what we've been doing, that's the flavor of hate and lies, serving greed, lust, and the love of power.
Great posts. I feel like I'm "there": fully willing to forgive even the worst, if they were to wake up to where I feel I am, willing to set aside certainty for love and acceptance of the Persons while we circumscribe behavior differently. I work with the public and have "seen the shit", and yet I'm willing to play part of the family despite the willful evil. But how do we live beside rabid animals trying to starve us?
Whew baby talk about word salad lol. This shit reads like what a college student thinks his paper should sound like to be considered inteligent writing.
The opening sequence here seems dishonest to me. The Peterson twitter ban video is Jordan pissed off and spewing vitriol, this much is true. But Jordan angry is not all we are seeing of him these days. The vast majority of new videos I have seen from Peterson over the last several months are the thoughtful Peterson analytical as ever and lacking the venom displayed here.
He’s also been as emotional as everyone he attacks.
@@Theactivepsychos People are human, thats the problem with 'internet gurus' and the characters the web creates. Jordan Peterson is a psychology professor of middling repute in a field not exactly known for stellar accomplishments. The internet and media largely created 'the personality'. And the guy was institutionalized and got addicted to pain medication. But he's been pretty public about it and so people who have similar isssues get a lot of help from it. Its when he gets political that is the problem, like the other week saying things along the lines of 'this kind of woman is a danger to society', thats from HIS channel so isn't a mistaken title, as many other channels who take his stuff will do. There most certainly is not ANY kind of woman right now who is the 'danger to society'. Thats just gibberish, but again unfortunately you have people 'looking for answers' and seeing shit like that and THAT is more of a threat I'd say.
But the guy was like that from day one. He quit or lost his job because he was at a college that insisted on non gendered pronouns from all professors, which is still fairly unusual, but when you leave a good paying job because you won't put 'they' on a paper, lets not pretty you don't have a little belligerence in you.
@@mikearchibald744 Our Canadian government made it AGAINST the law, to misgender anyone. THAT is why he was against it. It is government compelled speech!
We're screwed in Canada...🥴
@@mikearchibald744 it’s funny that we are all different but those that are more different to him (or his ideal) are worthy of attack, ridicule or spite. He says in rant that the Hippocratic oath first does no harm (it doesn’t actually say that) but then he, a clinical psychologist, goes on to attack a vulnerable trans man. It’s absurd the amount of projection and self castigation he does without awareness.
@@mikearchibald744 have you seen the talk he did with Matt Dillahunty? It’s the exposure of a madman.
I am Liberal. Yet there are many non LEFT thinkers and teachers that I have listened to...that I honestly still respect. BUT I have noticed over the past few years that they have gotten more angry and their tone has shifted... but I have noticed that on the Left as well.. but I have always been liberal and care about progressive ideas and freedom.. It is frustrating and often I have to take a step back. I feel like the whole world is going through a mid life crisis or something.
I totally agree. JP is not just an extremely brilliant philosopher and clinician, he’s a genuinely good man. He’s also the most misquoted and purposely misinterpreted public intellectual out there. My girlfriend had a very low opinion of him based on everything she heard from the scuttlebutt on the woke left, until I had her read and listen to some of his stuff. After she read 12 Rules, she said “I can’t believe all these people are downright lying about him!“ My guess is that pressure has gotten to him to the point that it has made him bitter and tired. Hell, he regularly gets called a “Nazi“, when his passion is teaching people how to avoid that.
I hope that fame proves to be a good thing for him in the final tally, because a generation of people are better off because of him.
I feel the same way! I'm an artist that leans more Libertarian/independent, so I can easily empathize with the Left and the ideals they are 'suppose' to hold...given how "illiberal' some of the left has become. There is some legitimate anger coming from the left (about various social issues), but now it's seems like I am having a hard-time discerning between straight-up projection and anger. I think this anger from the left has caused any public intellectuals (not specifically on the left) to fight fire with fire. Plus there is something to your global 'crisis' point, and that's perhaps part of the ugly recipe. Cheers!
After reading the full history of progressivism...and paying attention to current progressives... I've come to the conclusion you can't be a progressive and be pro freedom. I suggest reading Illiberal Reformers for a FULL history of progressivism, which was written by a historian from Princeton. I also highly recommend researching the Fabian Society. Its coat of arms alone should tell you all you need to know. Fabianism is Europe's version of progressivism. Huxley's Brave New World is Fabianism's literal vision of a "utopian" future. Don't believe me, look at who was a member back in the day. They even eat insects in the novel. Sound familiar? And that's just the the start of the rabbit hole. Look up Walter Duranty...just one of the Western journos of the 1930s who covered for Stalin while he was forcefully starving millions of Ukranians. It's called the Holodomor. Progressivism is just another form of socialism. It always picks winners and losers.
Amen to all that
Thank you David. The trust Ken Wilber shows to you is manifest and it gave a great interview. And the less it was about Peterson, the better it got!
I actually had a reaction to the title because the picture of Ken Wilbur in a wig, against the question “what happened to Jordan Peterson?” Was so absurd. The question could be “what happened to ken Wilbur?”
That's got to be the most convoluted way of not admitting you have male pattern baldness I have ever heard.
What's difficult for me to understand is what the mythos or grand narrative of an integral stage might be? I think that John Vervaeke would say that appreciating the ecosystems of the major traditional religions may be part of keeping spirituality healthy, and that new spiritualities would also need to evolve equivalent ecosystems and narratives. Wilbur admits that the integral stage hasn't achieved a critical mass of participants but neither, as far as I'm aware, does it seem to offer a non-abstract mythos that can be attractive and adaptive to all "levels" of the population, and to all the many sub-communities within the West. For Integral to really be practicable at scale, I think it would have to be operating with all of Vervaeke's 4Ps, along with a strong and compelling narrative (that's where traditional religions, which have survived many different types of government and culture, still have an advantage). Also, I believe that Peterson is still trying to push towards integrative, less divisive, possibilities, but he is hot about how tyrannical many of the green stage proponents have been for so long. I am not sure what the proper use of anger for Peterson should be, but I understand why he is angry. The anger from the extreme left--which has been on display for a long time and which is unfairly reactive to Peterson-- has finally warn thin his patience. That makes him human and maybe even homeopathic for others who are also warn-out and beaten-down by the farthest of the far left, who seem to hold much of social media's main stage. Maybe an edgy rhetorical season is right in the greater scheme of things? Not sure. I am personally too high in agreeableness to be a fair judge (i.e. I would not do what he is doing, though I can respect it). My understanding of the term "alt right" leads me to believe that it is the wrong label to apply to Peterson. He still espouses a classical liberal politics, from everything I have seen and heard, albeit with a bit of venom of late. With regard to the classical liberal ideal, I don't think we can go back to the almost "covenantal" basis (and appeal) of the American experiment, or enlightenment rationalism more broadly. It shouldn't be discarded wholesale, either. Likewise, it seems to me that we would do well to recover some dimensions of the Great Tradition religious vitality that "funded" the West, especially if that can include and embody not just the kataphodic elements but also the apophodic (affording both timeless mythical grounding, along with openness to further evolutions). I can't see any way around _some_ reclamation of the nobility of the West's Judeo-Christian and Greco-Roman mythos, unless we are resigned to revolution. I can imagine a healthy Western reinvigoration (and evolution) also including Islamic and other Eastern voices and traditions, especially if people like Vervaeke and McGuilchrist can serve as role models for how to do that. It's interesting to me that Peterson recently posted challenges to both Christian churches and to his Islamic followers. He seems even-handed with his rhetorical assertiveness, in that regard. I appreciate Wilbur's perspective, I'm just not sure how it becomes storied and truly integrative. I'm probably neglecting some key points, but that's what comes to mind after watching several interviews.
Maybe we all just need to practice patience and realize that the 20 to 50 years that Ken Wilber believes we have to wait is a reasonable amount of time before society arrives at a tipping point for the integral stage. I believe we are not only living through culture wars but also class wars in order to work through and adapt to AI/ technological disruption. It takes a while to figure out one's identity and place in the world when there are so many to choose from, while at the same time losing all the traditional choices because AI is replacing them :)
Astute and appropriate. The video's analysis seemed blind (willfully or other) to so much of what is currently going on in the world, which but any human standard REQUIRES pushback.
Eirik I resonate with your comments. I am looking for the symbols that will draw people to the integral stage. Something similar to how Gaia and earth rise over the moon were powerful symbols for green.
This.
@@dirtypure2023 Agreed! It’s easy to pathologize anger as regressive, but in the face of so much “mean-green “woke authoritarianism, it seems fitting. Not sure what a more integral response would be. A bland, aloof, disengaged lecture on the “transcend and include” nature of evolution? Sometimes you have to pick a side.
Great to see you Ken, thank you for everything.
Wow, this was depressing. The pathology of green is what has devolved. I see the shadow of Integral has yet to be addressed, morphing further into the unrecognizable.
This is really good
I love Jordan, I watched almost all his lectures early 2020 and I learned so much.
He’s gone through a lot and I understand he must feel overwhelmed with the responsibility that has been placed on him , much of it while he want even on the internet himself.
I am sad though that I feel like his anger, defensiveness and pride are getting in the way of his raw and deep intellectual pursuits.
However just because many look up to him and he’s older doesn’t make him immune to the human condition I guess.
I hope he will find a new balance and peace thank you for bringing up this conversation
I totally agree. I hope he opens a a bit. Would be beautiful to watch and know.
Who placed any responsibility on him?
@@CriticalAfricanThinkers this is obviously my perspective of the situation I can’t say whether or not he feels responsibility. What I mean is that like he says a lot, many people come up to him saying how much he impacted them, which of course is great, he did the same for me but its obvious it’s also a burden to some extent. Additionally I felt that a lot of his growth was right before his detox, and he was still blowing up in 2020. When he came back so many things had happened and all the podcasting staples almost felt as though finally he’s back to add his perspective and improve things in some ways, because so much had happened. This with his own personal recovery I can only imagine is a blessing but also a burden.
Anger, defensiveness and pride? Hmmm let’s examine the word anger…. This is an energy that makes many people uncomfortable and therefore it has been deemed to be an inappropriate behavior, however what is a better way to identify that there is an enormous issue facing one? As for defensiveness I can’t honestly say that I have observed this.. pride ? A person cannot be truthful if there is a level of proudness attached to words, so I would argue there is no pride coming from JP… the uncanny ability he has to listen very carefully and then choose what the focus of his reply will be and the depth to which he is able to dissect the essence of the conversation can only happen when there is zero ego…
it's at the point where Peterson is above reproach by some of you, despite the clear evidence. Peterson is after all a man, so despite his good sides, he has his flaws, and pride for now is certainly one of them.
Anger, yes, Peterson comes across as angry and unnecessarily intense, even when he was my favourite public intellectual, his intensity always unsettled me. The only way his intensity makes any sort of sense is if it will culminate in some violence, if not, let him chill the fuck out, let him smile, laugh, let his hair down, even if the world is going to shits, he can't save the world.
Perhaps Petersons' crusade is a way of avoiding issues in his personal life, something he accuses the left of, something contrary to one of his 12 rules. "Put your life in perfect order before trying to change the world" I sense Peterson's inner world is chaotic and he is looking for meaning outside of himself.
David your the best person to interview/converse publicly with Ken. Please make this a regular thing
I love you Ken, please keep making public your commentary on what's unfolding
This honestly doesn't reflect my experience or understanding of the last 5 years at all. Anyone that expected JP not to take a stand for his beliefs, or thought he was a foggy intellectual without any interest in actually materially impacting the world, didn't watch any of his University lectures on the Gulags or Nazis, or noticed his stand on C16. If you want to sit around meditating I'm all for it, but don't complain about folks trying to fight for what they believe to be right as though they are small minded.
He’s using the public norms of tolerance and openness, to be intolerant and attack openness. At a point it becomes not only hypocritical, but indefensible and morally wrong. And critically, it isn’t his personal journey, he is using public platforms to promote intolerance. And it is not just the toleration of difference, but undermining science and policy, I would say in bad faith. There is an anger and vitriol, which is hard to see as anything but a direct attack. I think he’s gone too far, along with others who are becoming enemies of the society in which they live.
@@Rnankn I have removed all psychopaths and narcs from my life. So i forgot to ask - how does it feel to be mentally sick, deranged and lost in its on mind, in constant time loop? Could you please answer the question.
@@Rnankn we shouldn’t be so open minded that our brains falls off.
Dr. Peterson said about Bill C-16, “I meant NO more than they meant YES.” A man like that doesn’t back down, and we don’t want him to. It’s because good people did back down that this world ended up with the Holocaust, for God’s sake.
@@Rnankn Undermining science?? Hypocritical??? Ohhh the irony.... 😂
Ken, your legacy is guaranteed. I am so glad for your work for exactly the reasons you explained. I first fell into your rabbit hole oh- 20 years ago?- and absorbed integral into my life. It has been an incredibly illuminating lens, useful in every aspect of life, deepens, broadens, adds dimensions. Your work helps me every day to be better, and fairer, more just, less reactive, more forgiving, a better critical thinker. Your work is authentic- ‘what’s there is REALLY there’. Your work is so much more than many realise.
Excited about the new book.
Also you’re looking great, and speaking so strongly. It was a real treat to find this video and find you thriving ❤️ Thank you!
🥰
the thing is, i think the world has changed immensely since 2018, so to expect Peterson to have the same attitude would be unfair. Things are getting heated, i agree. However i think in many, many cases he is trying to be truthful. And when you see lie after lie after disgusting lie, i think it's perfectly right to be irritated. Yes he has become more angry, but the world has become a more dangerous and angry place itself.But i am still figuring out my exact stance i want to take. But i am looking forward to reading your Substack, often opening my eyes to things i would otherwise miss.
I believe he just gave up making a difference, and is only for profit now.
I don’t think it has changed so much, and not unexpectedly, only some have been slower than others to come to understand the nature of our times.
Arthur Rosa Attention and denial is his motivation as I see it.
reading the substack by david fuller I thought hey this might be interesting and it was in some points
my first raised eyebrow was from "Shortly after watching the interview I messaged both Peterson and Cathy Newman to congratulate them on a brilliant piece of TV"
It wasn't Cathy was horrible, everything she said made her sound like a carricature of a stupid and useless interviewer.
and then later on "The writer Helen Lewis had a famous and combative interview with Peterson for GQ magazine that has as many views as his breakout viral moment with Cathy Newman, in her review of Beyond Order, she makes the following observations:.."
she was even worse, aggressive, ill-informed and so much more.
Someone who would praise and quote these.. people strikes me as deeply untrustworthy
I wish Ken could cover the issue of WEF and the great reset agenda and the weaponisation of Green by billionaire class and big corporations to usher in authoritarianism seen in Melboune Australia, Canada, NY, California, New Zealand etc. If we are taking a fully integral approach surely these issues are critical as we seem to be hurtling towards a Chinese style system under the guise of green. If that happens then Red will rule just as it does in China. Thank you gentlemen for this fantastic conversation, I feel much better for having watched this. 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
Accusing JP of ‘Click baity’ while using his name to click bait the his audience that put this channel on the map 👀
Holy shit Ken Wilber was a really big vehicle for my exploration of the kinds of ideas he studies early on in my track of those concepts. I couldn't tell you how valuable it was to find work that mapped onto my thoughts from that time, which I had trouble finding elsewhere in a form that wasn't spiritual-minded.
Man I was just thinking about this, thank you for bringing this to light.
I love and respect both Ken Wilbur and Jordan Petersen. Super smart men that think in ways most of us never will be able to fully understand.
You misspelled both men's names.
Jordan Peterson had his moment, he hit an important switch, but now he's like every other celebrity intellectual, a product.
yep
Thank you for this interview! Great to see Ken again - was wandering how he was. I love the way you tee up such eminent guests with spot-on questions and then sit back to listen with the rest of us - why is that such a rare quality!? Anyway, I'd been having similar thoughts about JP so it was useful to hear this reflection. It is worth remembering that JP has been very, very ill for a very long time. I had put a lot of his increasing aggression down to side effects from medication (he admits to still taking one medication but refuses to say what - fair enough!). But my interest wained after he interviewed Iain McGilchrist.. .....and didn't seem to take him that seriously or get into any of his ideas (immediately countering everything Iain said). For me this highlighted the difference between an intellectual who reads and talks a lot and someone who has engaged in the ways Ken speaks of at the end of this interview. And then when JP started preaching about climate change and ecological destruction (that it's really not much of a big deal) yet he doesn't seem to appreciate the difference between CC and a weather forecast and native forests and crop planted forestry (despite reading "over 200 books" about such material in a two year period - how can anyone digest 200 academic books in two years!?). Perhaps most significantly, however, I detect that JP seems to have not-that-much-time for compassion as a human quality - which goes against all wisdom teachings! Despite all this, I still regard JP as immensely important and he's made me think a lot about my own life. And he's put himself on the line like almost no-one ever before! Perhaps, for now, he's just reached his limit of relevance and is going round in circles?
compassion is not a cardinal virtue, stop rationalizing based on shallow feelings labelled as profound.
I think more like JBPs tolerance has run out. He's frustrated that despite is honest intention to warn people about what's coming, he's still getting sniped at by radical ideologues, and engagement with that minute critics has sidetracked him a wee too much. Oh well, we can't expect people to be saints, not even angels are perfect. God bless him.
P.S. " Climate change" is presented simply to gain power and manipulate socities into a New World Order, aka Great Reset, aka Liberal World Order, etc. A dystopian plan to force everyone into the egotistical academia's elite vision of how things "should be". Looks good on paper... as long as you're the author.
You sir said it best with kindness and compassion
@@notloki3377
Damn, you so deeeep man!
Compassion for ones enemies leads to compliance and could perhaps even enable a police state.
It's calming to see that there is a way out of the culture war, thanks for the vid and for the title, because it did "bait me" as a person who likes Jordan Peterson, and I'm grateful that the topic went beyond or more likely, it was the main topic from the beginning
I love you so much David! You are a great leader of your space....🥰 So good to see Ken Wilber here being the great Unisson that he is. 🥰
🙏❤ you inspire so many...so many change for being in contact with you! You not only change me, but with the creation of the integral framework you created also container that is welcoming and gives strenght in one's journey. 🥰
''I Loove the Buddha We are!'' ....a lover of great Ken Wilber
“Wilber”, not “Wilbur”
@@hansnielsen6280 thank you, corrected!
You guys should come live in Canada for a while. It may help you understand the parallels he sees between prior communist / totalitarian/ dictatorships of history and the direction Trudeau is going. He realizes we need active intervention to this and related divisive trends in the U.S. This may be part of the reason for his escalating tone.
LOL
@@docsavagemanofbronze6362 rofl
Good point. 👍 There's a covert war going on that most people are not aware of due to censorship, propaganda, and cognitive dissonance.
Yikes
Or maybe he is just wrong…
The reasoning behind the title seems to be geared towards click baiting given the amount of attention Jordan Peterson has acquired.
In my personal opinion Jordan has integrated all the various aspects of his being. Yes! He has strong opinions, opinions which in my mind are worded mindfully - accessing the various layers within our world.
The beauty of life is that it allows us to integrate all “colours” at various points in our lives - leading to embodiment.
You must be cherry picking your experiences of Peterson.
At times he is very sober and balanced but increasingly he has become angry and irrational.
He does not display the characteristics of an integrated self as far as I can tell.
His brain has been damaged it seems lately.Possibly from the benzodiazepine addiction.
@@thenowchurch6419 I wonder integrated anger looks like? To me he is airing out hard topics, which are dear to his heart - it’s possibly the only way he knows how to express it
@@ledaswan5990 pharmaceutical damage is a real thing - agreed. Can only see where it goes I guess
@@paulboyter4153 Emperor Haile Selassie I before the League of Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, 1936, is what integrated anger looks like.
That an overly emotional and screeching tone is the only way Peterson knows to express his anger is a great pity.
This is a fantastic and truly necessary conversation and Wilbur is the perfect person to help examine the shift in these folks. This really needs to be "integrated" into our understanding of people like Peterson and Rubin. They came onto the scene articulating good critiques of contemporary postmodern thinking and rigid modern and pre-modern thinking, their supporters cheered them on (mostly those aligned with critiquing postmodern and multicultural culture) and their detractors charged them as being reactionary traditionalists, and they failed to reach an integrated perspective and collapsed back into the reactionary traditionalism they were being charged with. They have been articulating important cultural ideas and forces that we DO need to be in touch with to be fully integrated, but they have unfortunately become more harmful to the process of integration now than helpful to the cultural integration process.
Agreed.
He Is making the right decisions in fighting the left... you just have to follow the abuse of power... my country (Venezuela) is the extreme of the old school leftist totalitarianism... We in Venezuela Saw the gradual destruction of separation of power (there wasn't that much) and the censoring of the media, and violations of Property rights. Not acknowledging that this things are happening in the United Stated States and Canada for me at this point it's impossible.What Peterson is doing is what an individual can do to steer things in a democratic System without political power. In Venezuela We were so cynic about our flawed demoracy that we didn't take A political Stance...
He said "this is a wig" and I clicked the like button. This is the sincerity I seek.
I'm still personally deeply conflicted about JP. Not in a painful, confusing way, mind you. Not anymore. I'm just amazed and incredibly grateful that I was able to witness that (and this) particular moment in language, culture and history. He taught me a lot, but most of all through how other people reacted to him or their ideas of him.
I've since learned about more nuanced and sophisticated models of reality, more dynamic and elegant modes of being, but it's been fun and fascinating to watch unfold over the years.
What other more fun and "sophisticated" modes?
@@ribbrascal1065 That would be a synthesis of a whole bunch of people, JP included that I've watched and read over the years since discovering JP. Plus my own private musings.
I'm sure you know what I mean. You discover someone who opens your mind. You idolise them a bit. You grow. You change. You take a bit of this. A bit of that. Life expands your mind. You expand. You become more patient and forgiving. Less so in other ways.
Simply put, I guess I've grown. Nothing magical or mystical. Just growth. Happens to all of us.
Happy to elaborate further if that's not satisfying.
@@nellkellino-miller7673I understand but Please do, I'm very curious what you think JP misses or gets wrong, what other ideas you've added to his.
@@ribbrascal1065 Well then, a good place to start would be "the war on sensemaking" withDaniel Schmachtenberger Part 1.
You'll know within the first 5 to 10 minutes if it's your kind of thing.
Also the qualia research institute alongside the whole meta-modernist movement. A video called "the hyerbolic geometry of DMT" is a good introduction (again, you'll know in 5 or 10 minutes if it's going to interest you).
These are just two of the threads that I've synthesised with things I learned from JP that have given me what I personally consider a more sophisticated model. Happy to answer more questions or help you get to grips with some of the concepts involved in the videos I recommended, if necessary.
I wrote a post about JP a couple months ago from the perspective of archetypal psychology. Basic analysis is: highly developed magician, with shadow warrior and lover aspects. When the shadow warrior is constellated a man will see enemies everywhere. He doesn’t feel purposeful without a battle to fight. Without heathy lover energy, he’ll overwork himself to the point of destroying his body and eventually family and career. Developing the lover (feminine) will help balance out his king and warrior aspects by putting more focus on embodiment, sensuality, compassion and joy.
Interesting! Enjoyed reading this! Does however appear that JP’s King function is well developed at this stage - he has built & nourished his empire and now he’s defending it - particularly developed king qualities in his prolific sharing and ability to bestow ‘blessings’ via the years of teachings & guidance. (Assuming you’re working with Moore & Gillette’s understanding of KWML)
@@jordanthornton I agree...he displays some good King qualities! Moore gives the stages of King development as:
1. Mere Power
2. Ordering & Provision
3. Centering & Calmness
4. Inclusive Caring
5. Blessing
We can see how JP could use some work on centering & calmness and inclusive caring. Developing the warrior and lover aspects would help cultivate these qualities of the King archetype.
@@howlinthewilderness I see what you’re saying - thanks for taking the time to bring the relevant structure forward, especially in a CZcams comment!
@@jordanthornton Glad to exchange these ideas with you amigo.
Thanks for the reminder of how useful archetypal psychology, and particularly King, Warrior, Magician, Lover as diagnostic tools, not just as personal therapeutic modalities. Those four have an admirable simplicity to them!
Good work you're doing.
He's hurting...anything that is not love is a cry for love.
Sounds Like A Course in Miracles
Could that be because he has repressed the feminine in himself?
I wish someone would have this conversation with Peterson so we could get his perspective instead of psychoanalyzing him at a distance. If anyone has the ability to introspect on his evolution and possibly course-correct, it's him.
I hope so... The Daily Wire deal doesn't bode. In my opinion.
His latest video was terrifying - a msg for churches. It’s so venomous and I doubt he’d be receptive, especially with the pre-existing defence going in
@@Dilmahkana Why not?
We need a better epistemograph of his ...perspective, platform, and profile.... going forward. Knowing full well the problems of ...bias, content and interpretation.... in Philosophically Integrative Dialogue going forward.
@@Eltopo1368 Because they seem to want to push right-wing politics and values instead of a higher level intergated approach.
Also, having a high quality camera set-up, a crew, basically everything involved in his recent video will inevitably change things, it has potential to perpetuate his creep into making himself a 'brand'; we need less of that in general too.
Thanks for making this. I’ve noticed the same thing
I am suggesting that JP has the uncanny ability to sift through a tremendous amount of simplistic baffle gab and actually speak truth. Ken Wilber has the egotistical behavior that can only define what is by what isn’t in other words white is that which isn’t black. If these two people would like to dissect JP I would suggest they might interview him …. As to what his emotional state is ,, it is human, he expresses anger, disappointment, dismay, tears , humbleness, humility , strength and love. Not too often we witness a real human exposing himself in this way publicly.
Yes, that is the definition of abundant life, or one living life abundantly, in my opinion.
You don't get it
He refused the interview. There's an article on this subject with a whole lot more details and explanations if you're interested. Also, you might want to rewatch the beginning of the video where we hear Peterson's own view about these changes when they started to happen in 2018. It might be less obvious from the videos, but if you go read his twitter feed you can definitely see he has been highly unstable. He kept calling twitter toxic, while having a toxic attitude himself. Kept announcing he would quit posting, to just start over right away. Had his team change his password so he can't get on, to just want it back real quick. His tweets were inflammatory and engineered being misunderstood to then play the victim. I am pretty sure he willingly wanted and aimed at being "locked unless he discusses or removes his obviously hateful tweet". Sure pride was a biblical sin, but there's a pride month as a counter balance to milleniums of shaming those who are different than the majority, you can decide which is actually worse. Now, he's even being prideful about being a greedy capitalist openly, when that's just another sin, which he ignores entirely. He is being increasingly hypocritical and in direct contradiction to his own past teachings. I think it is obvious to quite many people that he is deeply unwell and is not acting as his normal self. He is stuck in a fight, in which he is in the process of losing his own soul. The regression he is experiencing is very obvious also when you see his open desire for society to also regress back to traditional religious values. We are not talking about Christian religious values, because every single value of the new testament is more easily associated with the left. No, he desires a return to abrahamic values, which is highly nonsensical. I think his illenesses, the near death of his wife, quitting his job as a teacher and clinical psychologist has plunged him into a dark night of the soul. I really hope he gets better, but for that he will need to regain his past sincerity. The one for which he kept being repeatedly told that he changed so many people's lives for the better.
Great comment. I’d also say that JP, as an individual is communicating with individuals - not with various different audience demographics - like, it seems, David Fuller and Ken Wilbur are arguing here. Perhaps the integral lens itself, is at least conditioned by collectivist ideology or maybe even outright collectivist itself and that’s why this and the article David wrote miss the mark so badly.
@@marc-andreboutin3449 Very fairly said and I share the same concerns. His more aggressive or regressive tone will win partisan favor but will turn off endearing himself to his opponents. I still am a fan but also hope he course corrects.
Firstly, I don’t know how Ken Wilber can continue calling Jordan Peterson as alt-right, when Jordan Peterson has continually and very thoroughly/successfully countered that claim. He has an integrated sense of traditional and conservative values while still remaining mostly a classical liberal. I also disagree that everyone who moves politically from left to right is necessarily regressing. When I listen to Thomas Sowell talk about how he went from being a Communist to holding more conservative perspective as he learned more, I hear development not regression. There are many others who started off liberal and became conservative. Perhaps they are maturing/developing, not regressing. David Horowitz, David Mamet also come to mind.
He’s never successfully refuted that claim. If you believe that, you’re an adolescent
He didn't call Jordan Peterson Alt Right. He said the left often identifies him as Alt Right. That's a huge difference, lol. Ken even says at 27:15 that "It was a bit unfair" that the left did this.
And Ken Wilbur is wrong about the “left” calling Peterson as alt right. Over the last 5 years Peterson has actively sought out the alt right to bolster his base of support and his income. I’m not going to split hairs over labels when it comes to this steaming turd of a human being. He continues to show himself for what he is…a grifter who knows much less than he thinks he does and appeals to boys who don’t know if they’re coming or going. What a great legacy
JP just literally joined alt-right propaganda platform, that is openly that, for that and only that.
@@rajo741 What is it about Peterson that so irks you?
Love the freedom of suddenly putting on a wig after all hese years! Something integral of being human and humorous has happened to Ken!😃
Can anybody tell me if Ken Wilber still plans to publish the not-so-easy book that contains his leading thoughts? Over 15 years ago this was talked about as if it was almost finished, but haven't heard anything since then. That said, I'd love to congradulate him on writing another great summary of his work. It all helps.
I too am waiting for part 2 of the great trilogy. Maybe he's becoming more like George RR Martin. If I had to guess, I think he is delaying the release because he feels the world is not ready to hear his gender types research. He is going to get heat from all sides, and there will be lots of pre trans fallacy that the culture will have to work through
@@radiantsilvergun8479
Thanks for the interesting response. Is there somewhere I can read about his gender types concept?
@@rooruffneck I don't remember where, it was an interview where he said part two would focus on Types on the AQAL map, including male and female types. The reason for not releasing the book is pure speculation on my part. I have heard interviews where he expressed frustrating with the discussion surrounding the transgender issues. I speculate that he feels the culture at large is not ready for this information, both the left and the right. I don't think the culture is ready either, too many pre trans fallicies to overcome.
He’s not really made progress since Sex ecology spirituality. That is his magnum opus. Everything since then has been tiny rearrangements of his basic thought…
@@radiantsilvergun8479 Sex, Ecology, Spirituality came out in around 1995. At the time he said the last two volumes of the Kosmos Trilogy would appear at ten year intervals in order to give the world time to evolve to the level of his thoughts. Around 2005 and 2015. The whole "allowing time for the world to evolve" thing was most likely a way to give him what he thought would be plenty of time to develop his theories further, which he was unable to accomplish in any large-scale manner. My opinion is that he simply wasn't able to satisfactorily complete the books and that the project has been long abandoned, although I imagine there are large quantities of unpublished writings which were meant to be included in the later volumes.
It's necessary that so many people "slide down from green" because so many people in this culture get there without incorporating much of any of the values of the previous stages. If someone has a lot of shadow material they have to slide down for a while or else they will transcend and repress rather than transcend and include.
Great point!
This is so true
True. And, there is no transcendence without integration of the "lower." The word itself, as defined requires it. The "spiritual bypass" IS the repression.
JP is an intellectual, but not a practicioner, even if he is a "believer" with great passion.
I salute anyman who can get anyone to take him seriously with that on his head
😂
You should learn and apply some integral theory and you’ll have radical acceptance for a lot of new things. It will give you a peace of mind not many of us have!
Ken Wilber one of the most brilliant minds of 21st century. He made philosophy accesible to me and his theory helped me to realize I can draw knowledge from many sources (philosophy, religion, science). The debates on "truth" are outdated (we no longer live in middle ages), and we can make our own truth (dignity of modernity). And every POV is correct but partial. If only I had integral theory at school.
Ken is such a deep thinker, always a pleasure to listen to his talks.
30:49 do you think David would consider 'mythic = fundamentalist religion' to be a complete analysis of the situation, i mean Harry Potter is a modern myth, not sure fans of the books would think of themselves as religious fundamentalists though 🤔
"Strong minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, weak minds discuss people." Socrates
I am so happy to see this interview, David, and thank you so much for a gracious interview that acknowledges Ken Wilber's immense stature. I have studied and read him to the extents of my intellectual capacities, and have found Integral theory something to be used day by day, moment by moment, to interpret reality. I loved George Land his transformational theory (GROW OR DIE), and L. Ron Hubbard for the same reason, and, most emphatically, Iain McGilchrist, whose asymmetrical structure could be extended to the universal. I am glad to see Ken, for whom I feel as much personal affection as I hold for Jordan Peterson, honored and consulted to give us his take, as he gave us his take on Trump.
Yes, I think the crystallization of his combative/aggressive posture is purely commercial. He has sacrificed his philosophical capacity to be flexible/agile. Ultimately, the result is divisive and regressive.
reading the substack by david fuller I thought hey this might be interesting and it was in some points
my first raised eyebrow was from "Shortly after watching the interview I messaged both Peterson and Cathy Newman to congratulate them on a brilliant piece of TV"
It wasn't Cathy was horrible, everything she said made her sound like a carricature of a stupid and useless interviewer.
and then later on "The writer Helen Lewis had a famous and combative interview with Peterson for GQ magazine that has as many views as his breakout viral moment with Cathy Newman, in her review of Beyond Order, she makes the following observations:.."
she was even worse, aggressive, ill-informed and so much more.
Someone who would praise and quote these.. people strikes me as deeply untrustworthy
Amazing stuff!
'You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain"
This is why falling into the savior archetype is a bad idea imo. I think there has to be a synthesis between the two.
A significant gap in Wilber's thinking here is that he connects eg. conservatism and Traditionalism to the "next stage up" of rationalist orange.
There is a connection in Traditionalism that is fully second tier - a relationship between the esoteric, mesoteric and (more overtly "fundamentalist" mythic) exoteric. This, and tripartism or the fourfold order (holarchical division of labour) is perhaps THE key Traditionalist argument.
In between these levels are the enterprises of science/technology (orange) and proto-philosophy (green).
These are not new. They're just inflamed and polarized - and mostly - SPECIALIZED.
Wilber comes from a background of epistemology and academia (even though he is far more well versed - I don't want to reduce him, but his work is more fundamentally epistemological).
Therefore - he takes these fragments of what esoteric Traditionalism calls "modernity" for progress.
There have been some genuine improvements but there is also a parallel thread of inward deterioration. I don't accept Wilber's thesis that we are evolving or that the Kosmos has an evolutionary tilt. (It has evolutionary and involutionary currents).
So the question of development remains. I still find the spiral to be descriptive of something - but this "classic" interpretation of almost a ladder of discrete structures here is off base in my view - and ironically it hasn't undergone *development* since I started reading Wilber nearly 2 decades ago now.
Another key Traditionalist thesis is that the public is always fundamentally amber/blue. This really helps reframe the culture wars - the green and orange sparring is only skin deep. To take Traditionalism seriously would suggest that religion ought to run in the evolutionary groove that was designed for it - rather than midwit secular specializations that are like handing civilization-destroying weapons to chimps (literally in some cases when it's technological weaponry, and figuratively when it's brutally reductive social theory/praxis).
I really like your take here, brother. Wielber assumption of a linear route of evolution through which humanity is pacing through during history just never sits well with me, but his descriptions of the stages do feel very familiar. This assumption of linear evolution smells of new-agey utopianism and of his naive assumption that the present is always better than the past. I often read philosophers from millenia ago that seem definetly green, and their texts are remembered to this day because they must have head an audience considerable enough at or close to the same level. I doubt the number of people in each level has changed THAT much since the first big civilizations, they seem to just flunctuate up and down in cycles, and it seems the downward curces are precisely motivated by the pathologies of the highter levels. Basically, at some point, we get to intelectual for our own good, being the monkeys that we are.
interesting that such an intelligent and wise man at 73 would still be concerned about hair; we humans are fascinating and fragile creatures.
Thank you!!!!
I love his bringing Piaget into the picture; I was at a lecture he gave at NYU in 1973. Teachers College at the time was totally into him. I taught Developmental Psychology at three colleges from his perspective. Met Stanislav Grof in 1972 at Church of St. John the Divine on 110th St. A few weeks after that, I met Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan, whose upstate New York Sufi community he was recruiting for. Three most important people in my whole life.
I've always loved KW's ideas and have learned a lot from him. I'm still not smart enough to understand it all but for what it's worth It's a shame that instead of talking about the issues of today in common terminology everything is discussed in terms of colours and integral terminology. I think it does the viewer a disservice. It's also a shame that KW has never gone head to head with any other thinkers to deal with criticism directly. So while I loved the content in his books, his surroundings have many times resembled cult-like behaviour and seem isolated. This has lead me to not trust everything he says as it has not been held to peer review... at least to my knowledge. My ignorant 2c
I agree with you. I read his earlier books.
I think one should never trust erverything some figure like Wilber or Peterson say. Instead we need to think for ourselves and make up our minds why we disagree (i.e. sensemaking described by Daniel Schmachtenberger). I think this would very much be in harmony with what Peterson, Wilber and others would want their "followers" to do.
Orange? Green? Integral? Sorry can’t follow 🤷🏻♀️
I suspect you do understand it and what he's saying just isn't that deep.
I appreciate the comments, I do think for myself but I am not as knowledgeable as intellectuals, so I find great value in watching them debate each other. This is really helpful as many times when someone’s argument is reframed it opens the door to new questioning, thereby helping me think for myself without having to also study all the references. My point was that I have never seen KW have a debate with anyone who challenged his views and the people who I currently listen to never mention him. It’s sad because I found his work really interesting. I hope someone like Sam Harris or Jordan Peterson speak about his theories some day.
The wig signifies that he is in contact with the weird side of life
Great video, thank you for sharing.
Once, a wise man was asked, "but how to deal with others?"
And he replied, "There are no others."
In realizing our intrinsic interconnectedness, even in the midst of turmoil, we remember, we are all One.
What level are we on if we are speaking of specific others as problems in the way of the great realization we seek?
Respectfully, I am not sure this is the Way.
Perhaps, a dialogos including someone like Daniel Schmachtenberger, and/or Guy Senstock, along with Peterson and Vervaeke, hosted by Rebel Wisdom, can help solve this challenge of realizing our shared purpose.
Schmachtenberger, Senstock, Peterson, Vervaeke, and Wilber in the same room having a good chinwag is a great idea. Add Bernardo Kastrup and Ian McGilchrist into the mix, and it would be absolutely mind blowing.
I've been a student of KW since 2000 and JP since 2005 but JP no more. Integral Life seems to be running in circles with politically "woke" applications of integral. The only folks I see carrying the ball further are John Vervake and Layman Pascal.
Do not allow a collective thought form to take hold of your mind. Step back and protect yourself from the mental virus of agreeing or disagreeing. Allow the freshness of your own thoughts and clear the clutter of others ideas. You will be amazed at your own knowing.
Entertaining as ever! This will be a Broadway musical someday.
Thank you, Love this guy💕
I was introduced to Ken Wilber through Rebel Wisdom and found Wilber's offerings online to be on the scam side of things after purchasing, despite the raw scope of his ideas. I also found it incredibly hard to take him seriously in this interview. Peterson is a man of many truths - this comment isn't about JP. I think this channel has become a little too concerned with not being associated with any one movement, which seems like a rational way of remaining "neutral/ever-learning" but... it's falling a little flat.
I think his books are still worth reading. I haven't looked at the online stuff (though I admit he probably sells his stuff hard to make a living).
The books are good though. At least, A Brief History of Everything completely changed my life about 12 years ago.
Well, it's also closing down. And Fuller is trying to get closure on Peterson for his own sake because the channel was largely inspired by him and Fuller thinks the time for rebelling is over. He wants to produce films for Channel 4. And Allie wants to devote himself to his hallucinogens.
In other words, these people are sell-outs.
@@roushanam thanks for info!
@@roushanam The time for rebellion is over just as the Great Reset kicks into gear? I haven't seen anything worth watching on channel 4 for years.
I think Mr. Peterson is quite obviously a recognized person in society. He has done a lot of good, for a lot of people.
His words quite literally pulled people back from the abyss.
This, in my world, gives him moral points. This means that I'm more forgiving of his transgressions, however slight they may be.
Few people outside of law enforcement, firefighters, and military can make the claim they have actively saved lives through encouragement and
providing a set of mental tools we can all use to make sense of the world around us.
Mr. Peterson strikes me more as a emissary from the land of common sense, here to drag us all back to reality.
Sooner or later he's gonna take the last train to the coast, and then were on our own.
I don’t think he’s going to the coast, but probably Russia to get another brain wash.
@@joefilter2923 petty
Transgressions? Strong word. We could do with a bit less of this please.
@@questor55 It seems to be a rather kind way of expressing his flawed thoughts and arguments. Which I would have to concur, and not be quite as forgiving nor kind.
I respect Ken Wilber and Jordan Petersen … why not wearing a wig? Why is everyone so upset about Petersen fighting back the beastly culture? I love The way he is challenging Twitter and its despicable censorship.
Jordan Peterson is a clinical psychologist/professor who did a thesis on alcoholism, yet claimed that he wasn't aware of the well known dangers of benzodiazepines...
Jordan Peterson also stated himself that he "adamantly" tried to get a client to take pharmaceuticals. A clinical psychologist who isn't even aware of the well known dangers of benzodiazepines, yet pushes pharmaceuticals onto others, has questionable competency at the very least; can you grasp how dangerous this type of incompetence is within the mental health world?
....
We all want someone to speak out against evil. Until he actually does speak out. And then we hate him and won’t listen to him because “he’s angry.” But if he didn’t speak out he would be “complicit.”
@@hairydude4020 His problem wasn't the common addiction phenomenon, but a very strange Alergic reaction. He has said to take SSRI's for long time; but the benzos was different because it caused a rare condition untreatable in any North American health services.
@@juansenaranjo
Jordan Peterson's reaction to benzodiazepines has nothing to do with what I've stated.......
Can you grasp how dangerous the type of incompetence demonstrated by Jordan Peterson as a clinical psychologist is within the mental health world and?
Good to see KW back. I don’t think that the criticisms of JP are quite fair, he is a therapist trying to heal damage done, often at earlier levels, for which many people are grateful. KW has really influenced my thinking over the years, but I have said, KW often speaks with all the wisdom of a man who has never raised children. JP is not a spiritual guide, but a psychologist often treating mental illness and pathology. KW by his own admission is also not a spiritual teacher but a pandit (scholar).
Well KW claimed to be enlightened before.
Something didn't smell right about him, self indulgence of the spiritual ego so to speak.
He is clearly extremely intelligent, but deluded in this aspect regarding himself none the less.
The problem is JP is not doing the acting like a therapist for the culture anymore. He is actively fomenting the "us vs them" mentality, is indulging in his shadow and aggressive tendencies. He has more or less declaired war against those on the far left. He is being reactionary simply to get back at the left, and while as a human I understand that, as someone who is supposed to be a pillar of the current intellecutal milieu, he is doing a horrible job in guiding people into the future. And how he has given in to being behind a pay wall with the daily wire +.
@@MrCman321 What is the function of healthy aggression?
It is to defend against someone overstepping your boundaries.
The far left is actively trying to destroy that which has led western culture to prosper, just to pursue an ideological dream which has led to millions of deaths anytime it has been tried in the past.
It's good to stand up to that.
Even tolerance must have it's limits if you want to avoid (self)annihilation.
@@Humanaut. Healthy aggression does not counter impede on others boundaries. That is just revenge, and causes the cycle of aggression to ramp up, because they hit back, and then you hit back in turn. As Wilbur was saying, integration is the correct way forward. Jordan's aggression could lead people to make irrational decisions based on anger and the feeling they are saving western culture by "punching back."
I don't know where you stand politically and what your beliefs are, but JPs twitter situation was unhinged. Should we protect children against gender ideology? Yes. Should we attack adults for willingly getting cosmetic surgery? No.
Intolerance leads to the same violence that occurred in the 20th century. In JPs own words "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".
What specific criticism of JP do you think wasn’t fair?
Do yob disagree with KW’s main thesis, that JP had integral moments but regressed to orange due to a (necessary) over reaction / rejection of green, audience capture etc?
Thanks for the talk RW. Good to see Ken. Would have liked to hear some recommendations on public figures/intellectuals who are in that 0.5%. And also how he comes to these conclusions? Assuming through observing what's around him. I guess it is fairly obvious we are collectively regressing or simply stagnant. I would like to thank the people in the comments for the discussion too. Good reading.
This woo literally lacks substantive content. What are green, orange, and turquoise? Be specific citing evidence and examples that ground these abstract nothings in reality.
Have to really know Ken’s Spiral Dynamics to follow this.
Daniel Görtz, Daniel Schmachtenberger, Zak Stein, Jordan Hall, Matthew Segall, John Vervaeke, Michel Bauwens are public intellectuals who have a strong anonymous footing in integral thought and havent lost it in the past two years.
@@XanarchistBlogspot He did that through out the whole interview. Orange is rational, green is postmodern and turquoise is integral. I can understand these theoretically but also from my own experience and observations, so to me they make sense and can be seen in many if not every aspect of life. I was looking more so for specifics on how he does the measurements on how many people are in each phase at any particular time.
@@spiriscibridgingspiritscie3431 Thanks. I'll look in to it.
Listening to Ken speak is a completely different experience than participating in the "I'm more turquoise than you" or "when are they going to wise up and let us run the world" discussions that are the almost exclusive offering on the social media groups dedicated to his work. That being said, I disagree with him on a lot of things, but his
"Pre/trans fallacy" and horizontal/vertical development models have given me a framework for explaining in five sentences what used to take me five pages. Ken is a brilliant guy. But I wish he would explain what the hell he is talking about to those who aren't familiar with his work.
I've started using Twitter and Jordan posts a lot. I just know that it isn't healthy and hope he doesn't lose it.
Great vídeo!
I'm pretty sick of people trying to imply that Jordan has changed or regressed to be honest. He's always had a controlled temper, admitted as such, talks about the detriments and benefits of such, and then the necessity of when to bring it forth. He warned, warned, warned some more; was polite, gentle, firm, and even terse and let his temper get the best of him every once in a while. Apologized for it, but explained why it was so important why we must listen to each other and stop going down the road we are going. Society did not listen.
Yet now, when he raises his voice to snap people to attention and slap them in the face a bit to get them to listen - he's somehow changed. All you have to do is watch some of his recent interviews with Chris and such. He's still the calm, collected, thoughtful, and deeply insightful person he has always been. However, he has openly stated it is time for him to step up and be more firm with some of his content - pretty much the DW stuffs - and see if that might reach especially more young people.
You'll never get people to ascend if they are reverting and get stuck at the bottom in despair. You have to stabilize the system back to steady let's say, since it threw itself too far out of whack, and bring it back up more slowly. You can't just ignore the damage to people now and the future millions that would likely cause an even more extreme fracturing in that future, with who knows what consequences. It's like a new Island being born - we've got to cool off a bit before we are able to expand and grow again, while still weathering the usual storms and erosion.
I don't have the vocabulary and word-painting abilities of an intellectual to do justice for what I am trying to say, but I think any honest person knows what I am trying to get across, and knows I am writing the truth. I have carefully thought about this in earnest and this is not "my truth" either. I believe it is the truth in a general sense. Perhaps not perfect, but nonetheless.
Take care all. This was a very good video.
"I don't have the vocabulary and word-painting abilities of an intellectual to do justice for what I am trying to say"
I for one got you crystal clear... Yes you do. Very good comment.
No I don’t think Jordan has changed. I think he’s just as snappy as ever. One still has to tease apart the useful and the useless in what he says. Yeah, same guy…
@@markcollins1497 I think that goes for everyone I've ever watched or listened to. Parse through whatever is being said to consider and find what seems useful or not. Usually plenty of both just like in this video. On an end note, I'd argue Dr. Peterson is definitely making an effort to be more "outlandish" than in the past with the volume (decibels) and occasional swear. Same guy, just trying a different approach in certain venues as stated.
Beautifully said. You spoke for many of us.
JP is a superficial crank!
what is a good place to start understanding integral
Plenty of videos. Try Spiral dynamics, both the Graves model and the Integral model. Then follow your nose.
Thank you for asking the hair question straight away. I wasn’t going to be able to do 90 minutes with that question lingering.
😂
Thank you David. Thank you Ken. Superb.
God, I hope Peterson watches this and reflects honestly. At his best, he's such a light. And at his worst, his defensiveness/reactivity fuels the culture war... and betrays his own hero's journey.
This.
There's a lote of woke bs to slay. It's about noble and urgent protection of our kids.
@@Mika-El- I sympathize with your point. But the devil's in the details. The small but significant adjustment I'd make there is: to "slay" the woke, will make the woke more extreme and more populated. The culture war is populating the reactionary poles, quickly. The integral mission of 'transcend and include', envisions a world where Disintegrated Green can own up to their woke insanity, repent from it, and grow. I think 'slay' could work...but I also think it probably won't. And, I think it will make the problem worse...betraying the kids we claim to be protecting. We don't need more war, we need more transformation.
@@joeymoore1475 I sincerely take your words to mind and heart. Thanks.
@@Mika-El- Ditto, I appreciate your openness.
What struck me is that there's a clear difference between Peterson organically, empathetically discussing a topic with someone (the majority of my experience of him), and Peterson reading from a teleprompter, conveying strong convictions while speaking to a screen. There is no dialogue with the latter route - where's the spirit of connection, of communication? I feel as if I'm being preached to. Sure, he has plenty of posted videos of himself teaching university uninterrupted, but this is awkwardly more personal (he looks at the camera), and is mostly built on a theme of his distaste/discontent with whatever topic.
Are you vaccinated? Do you wear a mask? Do you follow the status quo? Do you still trust media and government? If so, then you deserve to be preached to. Gone are the days when we can have a reasonable discussion. Now it's a stern telling-off, because the majority absolutely need it.
@@TheRealSamPreece would Peterson tell you not to do all or most of those things? 🤔
Stern telling-offs won’t work. The second people don’t meet in the middle to talk, both sides radicalize or double down more on their ideologies. This type of delivery basically just riles up an echo chamber for views, which is ironic timing for joining Daily Wire +.
@@EulogyfortheAngels fair point. We get what we deserve.
I am not a Rebel Wisdom follower, but after seeing David Fuller on Unherd talking about Jordan Peterson, I decided to check it out, although I had run into their videos in my suggestion feeds.
I found this conversation trying because of the jargon, the orange and the green and the final "Integral" stage of development. I am multi-cultural. My mother was from Alaska, my father Guatemalan, I lived in the Philippines for about three years and have lived in Guatemala most of my life, which is most certainly multicultural, more so than the US, where everyone has pretty much been Europeanized, no matter what their ancestry or color of their skin.
I did follow Jordan Peterson for a while and it was his attitude that turned me off beginning at the start of the Pandemic. The beast within, which we all have, became a little too aggressive for my taste and at the same time we began to diverge in our viewpoints. They had always diverged on one specific point, which I think is my issue with both left and right. That point, no small point, is the use of coercion in human relationships and that is the starting point for my perspective regarding moral development.
Moral development is not about the use of reason or even the level of tolerance that someone has for someone else's cultural or physiological differences, except at the point where intolerance becomes weaponized, where it becomes imposition on others of a desired state. Moral development centers around the justifiable use of coercion and deceit to achieve our aims. That is what fragments or binds societies.
Force, from a moral point of view, not a Darwinian point of view, can only be justified with behaviors that tear society apart, that harm the individuals that make up a Society, the nodes that make up our social networks. We depend on Society for our lives; some rugged individuals may not and they can have their short, nasty, brutal lives, but most of us cannot survive long without the cooperation of thousands maybe millions of other individuals who not only grow the variety of foods that we need to live a long life, but develop the medicines and skills needed when we have not given adequate maintenance to our bodies. And that is just to climb up the lower half of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. We need Society; culture is the frosting on the cake, what can make our life pleasant and meaningful. We, the nodes that make up our Societies, need to be safe from coercion and deceit.
When the use of coercion is justifiable and when it is not is what we should be debating. The same thing should be said of deceit because it is what keeps us from seeing what we need to see in order for our Society to survive and ultimately our individual selves, the inextricable nodes that make up that necessary network.
How we can discuss development or speak of any kind of integration without keeping clearly in view the forces that disintegrate is beyond me.
Thanks!
He starts off telling us what most people already know and it becomes just words without real meaning
Peterson's fight is misunderstood as opposing the excesses of 'green' (post-modern). The most aggressive self-appointed leaders of 'green' are actually 'red' (tribal) in disguise. These individuals have made it clear they are not interested in differing views, and so are not pluralistic. Peterson knows well that tribalism is characterised by warfare and so he has taken up his spear. His words to religious institutions are also to remind these communities to live up to their own standards. He cannot be labelled as 'amber' because he respects differing faiths, and he cannot be labelled as 'orange' because he clearly values the transcendent. So that leaves him as at least 'green' verging on 'teal' (integral) reflected in his ability to hold multiple perspectives and his place at the leading edge of culture. His state of health and emotional expression is the price paid for trench warfare. No-one gets to do what he does without scarring, albeit temporary. He appears to be one epiphany short of a full transformation to second tier.
Who are living examples of integral consciousness stage? Who are the people good to follow for inspiration and understanding how the integral stage really looks like?
When will we be getting the video “What happened to Ken Wilbur by Jordan Peterson”?
Dr. Peterson wouldn’t stoop to it.
Sunsa pitches - butchers!
I don’t think it’s JP that has changed, if you watch his old videos if anything he has pulled back a lot. If you feel like he has changed you might ask yourself if actually it’s yourself that has changed and are projecting towards Peterson.
Further consider David how your sense of it is that all of the IDW have been “pulled down” as you say. But isn’t that odd? Your sense is that all of these others have changed and it couldn’t be that it’s actually you that’s been pulled down?
Fair point to consider for all of us!
Thank you 🙏 Ken! You are truly incredible!
Been a big fan of Rebel wisdom! David continue your wonderful journey. I would just make one hopefully constructive critique. It seems like Jordan Peterson has become your kryptonite. And seems like you are so hyper focused on the heterodox idea that you are losing the forest from the trees.
God bless you! Keep up your amazing work!
reading the substack by david fuller I thought hey this might be interesting and it was in some points
my first raised eyebrow was from "Shortly after watching the interview I messaged both Peterson and Cathy Newman to congratulate them on a brilliant piece of TV"
It wasn't Cathy was horrible, everything she said made her sound like a carricature of a stupid and useless interviewer.
and then later on "The writer Helen Lewis had a famous and combative interview with Peterson for GQ magazine that has as many views as his breakout viral moment with Cathy Newman, in her review of Beyond Order, she makes the following observations:.."
she was even worse, aggressive, ill-informed and so much more.
Someone who would praise and quote these.. people strikes me as deeply untrustworthy
For many living in Canada, myself included, it has felt like Canada has been under attack internally from their own government, primarily the current political party in power, the Liberal party, who is now being kept in power because of the socialist party of Canada (the NDP) as they have formally formed a coalition. The medical tyranny that has been unscientifically imposed upon all members of society (covid vaccinated and Covid vaccine free, alike) has been EXTREMELY stressful, especially for the Covid vaccine free people. Many vaccinated people with platforms , JPB included, spoke up about this very critically, and thank goodness for that. The experience for a young, “free” population of a country like Canada to be relatively blindsided by their government in such a way was/is traumatic. I think this has impacted many Canadians intensely. And frankly, the sharper aggression you see from JBP could be seen as necessary as for many of us we truly are fighting for our freedom. Full stop.
Canada is under the control of the Worrld Ecconomicc Forrumm (sorry, trying to avoiddd gooogggle algoorithmmmm) Chrystia Freeland was just promoted to treasurer, I believe of that organization for her loyal service, not to her country. You guys need to take your country back, but you have to understand who you are taking it back from.
Yes, those of the resisters are well aware of the WEF’s and other NGO’s influences upon our political “leaders”. The VAST majority of the print, radio and television media networks are government subsidiaries and it is like watching, reading hearing propaganda 24/7. And then the echo chambers of social media seem to keep people separated other than the organic sharing of counter narratives via messages, tags, etc.
@Michael Zaremba He sadly or conveniently enough GOT the jab to "comply" hoping they would "leave me the fck alone!" Then after everyone got it he came out against it, allegedly because he realized they wouldn't stop. Over 90% of Canadians are jabbed with very high boosted rates. By the way, Hungary now has 20% drop in reproduction the past year along with many other countries showing such decreases (Taiwan 23%, Sweden 10%, Germany and others ~12). Good luck, Canada!
I'm in Canada too, and I think you are exactly correct. In my estimation, Jordan is summoning a proportional amount of ire in light of the threat we face as Canadians. This interview frustrated me. I feel like Rebel Wisdom habitually and consistently now erects a straw man of Jordan Peterson, and proceeds to criticize that without bothering to properly contextualize Jordan's commentary. Also, can we be friends? LOL!😀
This provides some clarity. Thanks
Reading the criticisms of JP again. Why is everyone so afraid of aggression? Why is everyone so afraid of red tier? Red healthy aggression has its appropriate expression. I see nothing wrong with calling for combative, healthy even aggressive debate. If you all are really integral, ride the entire wave. Don't get stuck at green, even healthy green
I feel the 'never trust a hippy' concern I had for Rebel Wisdom, is being vindicated. 😆😆😆 It is interesting to dip into, but can often result in a cringe for me personally... each to their own.
reading the substack by david fuller I thought hey this might be interesting and it was in some points
my first raised eyebrow was from "Shortly after watching the interview I messaged both Peterson and Cathy Newman to congratulate them on a brilliant piece of TV"
It wasn't Cathy was horrible, everything she said made her sound like a carricature of a stupid and useless interviewer. "so what you're saying is.."
and then later on "The writer Helen Lewis had a famous and combative interview with Peterson for GQ magazine that has as many views as his breakout viral moment with Cathy Newman, in her review of Beyond Order, she makes the following observations:.."
she was even worse, aggressive, ill-informed and so much more.
Someone who would praise and quote these.. people strikes me as deeply untrustworthy
The clips of JP at the beginning of this video say all that needs to be said.
I suggest you put your focus on what's happened to our world "leaders" and institutions.
Ken refers constantly to his color framework but it seems to be constraining his thought because he constantly goes in circles without saying much. Having read a summary of his integral theory I see some attractiveness to it but in practice he isn't confirming to me its utility.
It really is sad what's been happening to JP. He seems to have the same problem many people get into when they immerse on social media politics. I sometimes wonder if he took his 'carry a heavy burden' a little too much to heart because he fails to balance it with fun, humor, and humility. But more likely, he has suffered from some significant executive function decline presumably from the stress. He seems to lack impulse control. Everything from interrupting his guests constantly to explosive unconsidered outbursts on Twitter. I've got a lobster tshirt and almost too embarassed to wear it these days.
No one can read a summary of integral and expect to understand it. There is no quick way to understand this towering body of work. It requires reading, studying, absorbing.
He wasn’t taking in circles. It was fascinating, but probably confusing to many because understanding the jargon (colours quadrants AQAL etc) really is the simplest way to express his perspective through the integral lens.
I've noticed a definite temperament change in Peterson since his near fatal stint in rehab. His content is more emotionally driven, and his self control seems to be less effective than it used to be. To me he comes off as exasperated and impatient. I'm a huge fan of his, but I definitely prefer the calm, rational, oozing self control Peterson ala the Cathy Newman interview or the Sam Harris discussions. I understand his anger, I just wish he'd use a bit less emotion in its expression.
That’s unhealed shadow
He is a human being went through hell, not a product/service for you to prefer this or that way.
Druther your eggs and look in to your consumeristic approach towards people.
@@natalyglik9310 Wow. Even prefaced with "huge fan" and an understanding of his rehab struggle, you still managed to get your moral indignation on and find a way to preach at me. Well done.
Thanks for the new expression BTW, "druther your eggs" is not common in America, I like it though.
I always found JP, even his early college work to be self righteous and self superior... His later work seems to simply be 'fuck that college money, Alex Jones money is what I want...' So enter the long slow tough guy approach and stare into the camera to melt the panties of all the little boys watching... Weird as hell... And I wouldn't take advice from anyone who is so obviously struggling with internal demons without a serious sifting of what he's saying... Of course every bad example can be used to learn something... And JP fits that bill.
Just my opinion... What do I know...
From my perspective there are many lines of “development” within individuals and groups and it doesn’t work to configure them in the way described here. I appreciate what KW brings to the conversation but for me JP is more developed from a soul perspective because he insists on a continuation of ritual and tradition, as well as the inclusion and importance of direct experience. This to me equates to a more rational and scientific view given the holographic universe and my own direct experience. We may be “developing” in the round but until the oneness ken speaks of (as if it were an alien experience to be acquired thru meditation) is integrated, we should not always consider what we are doing as development.
I would love to see JP and KW in a conversation. Is there a reasoned why it didn’t happen yet?
I must have missed something as I don’t understand all these colour code things like Green etc- what does this all mean. Do I need to watch another video first? Can someone simply explain it please in a simple way ? 😊
czcams.com/video/U2XK812tSmM/video.html
I haven't even started this yet but I can tell it will be good. I've been deeply saddened to see him fall into his own cult of personality.
Keep doing what you are doing David. You will get negative feedback from the political sides of this war, but we need to get over this war and actually start solving problems. Always try to understand the critiques, but don't be discouraged by their irrationality.
exactly. I try to be balanced... to understand. Most folks are still way at the very starting line.. haven't done the required internal work. I have been watching a lot of distressing documentaries .. .like DOPESICK that makes me struggle to find goodness in the world... and I really wish folks would just work on themselves more.. do the internal shadow work and understanding so we can evolve... sigh.
Agreed. I think this is why humility is more necessary than ever in this individual-centered culture, without it you can't have people genuinely willing to speak, willing to listen, and willing to change conclusions if necessary.
I mean this sincerely, let’s see how you like the world in 2030. Also let’s see if you like all the changes of globalism and Socialism that will not be stopped. That is the agenda. Stay in your mind and I guess you will survive as well as possibly not starve to death. Good luck to us all.
@@Keepthefaith1 you won't change minds by stating your conclusions in condescension homie. At least have some substance showing valid reason for condescension if you're going to go that route. Most ppl can't wrap their minds around the aquarian age reality because of the lack of believability that humans would stoop to those means at all. Give reasons, state clear and to the point sources, and present conclusions. That's the best chance you have to win the intellectual.
reading the substack by david fuller I thought hey this might be interesting and it was in some points
my first raised eyebrow was from "Shortly after watching the interview I messaged both Peterson and Cathy Newman to congratulate them on a brilliant piece of TV"
It wasn't Cathy was horrible, everything she said made her sound like a carricature of a stupid and useless interviewer.
and then later on "The writer Helen Lewis had a famous and combative interview with Peterson for GQ magazine that has as many views as his breakout viral moment with Cathy Newman, in her review of Beyond Order, she makes the following observations:.."
she was even worse, aggressive, ill-informed and so much more.
Someone who would praise and quote these.. people strikes me as deeply untrustworthy
Agree with vast majority that JP is taking a firmer more uncomfortable (for many) stance on stuff he has simply figured out along the way! Change is needed and he like us all is part of making such change 👍
Totally agree JP’s tone has changed for the worst in the last few months.
Did I just miss the part where these colour terms are defined??
I hate what have happened to our culture during the last decade or two, particularly in the 2 last years,!
It's a nightmare of cringe, creepy and evil.
I do miss the less ranting Jordan Peterson. All I could say is the battle carried out against him had caused him to go over the edge.. and I agree he could have crossed the beach to have a discussion. Could you please reach out to him and unpack your thoughts on his recent development?
Thank you so much for having a few different videos with Ken on your channel. He is so overlooked and underrated.