Steinway Vs Petrof Concert Grand Pianos - Living Pianos VLOG
Vložit
- čas přidán 25. 12. 2018
- Today, we are going to demonstrate some fundamental differences in American and European pianos. Naturally, there is tremendous variance of pianos within Europe as well as in the United States. However, what we are going to show is how it is necessary to approach playing American and European pianos with dramatically different techniques in order to get the sound you are after out of them.
My wife has been playing a Petrof in our living room for 10 years. It's a magical instrument, ethereal. Thank you for this wonderful video.
We love our Petrof baby grand and have never regretted choosing it over other comparably priced brands. My tuner always comments on its lovely sound and how well it holds its tune.
Petrof is the de facto my favorite brand.
Then watch my videos, I am playing on an upright Petrof.
Given that Petrof family possessions and rights were taken away in 1948 after communist coup, and their kids bullied at school as enemies of the people, they aren’t doing too bad - the family got it back fully in 2001!
I admire the sound of a Petrof. I used to work in a famous auction house and we had the joy of hearing many makes of pianos. I thought the Petrof was uniquely suited to Chopin's music. I once put together an auction of nine Steinway concert grand pianos. It was a rare opportunity and was an amazingly a huge success.
couldnt agree more, it really can bring out the bel canto voice out of chopin music, easily
Chopin, Schubert, Mozart, Haydn sounds superb on a Petrof pianos!!
Nothing is more satisfying than playing romantic and yes Petrof will always sound more colourful and bright than any other piano.
Petrof is warmer and the sound is nicer....
Exactly what Ivan Moravec (the greatest Czech pianist) used to say.
As a south-esatern european child I started learning on Petrof.In Yugoslawia,Russia and eastern Europe Petrof was the most beloved piano...For me is Stainway strange, and the fact is correct:tone schould be gained more through pressure then by Petrof...In the fact both touch as well as arm weight transfer are important elements of piano technique...Both schould be present in approching each new piano and always in a different proportion...
Sorry Steinway I prefer the Petrof.
I thought I was the only one!
@@jcastellano822 You are certainly not!
;)
I would buy this petrof.
@@FedeRhodes Yeap :D And please no blind tests of Petrof :D Otherwise people will discover Petrof is actually better and as you say, it will not be possible to buy them for the money they are now..... eventhough their prices have been rising already :(
Somehow I liked the Petrof here , maybe I am used to hearing old versions recorded in Europe say in France.. Bechstein might suit that piece too..
By the way, thank you for working out the strenghts of both piano brands. It really makes you very credible as a piano seller. It's better than the other type of seller who bashes the brands he doesn't sell. If I'd live in the U.S. I would come to your shop.
Fascinating! I once played a friend’s 1920s 7-ft Knabe, and I exclaimed, ‘You don’t even have to play it; it plays itself!’ Every other piano I’ve played requires some kind of varied effort. That old Knabe was incredible.
Hi Robert,
I enjoyed your comparison of the Petrof and the Steinway. I am am old former student of your Dad when I was at at Hofstra. My piano teacher is going to acquire a 7 foot Petrof after playing a Yamaha for over 40 years. Her piano was played 24/7 by students and she now needs to retire it. When I asked why she chose the Petrof, she said it was always her favorite, but she could not afford one. The piano is coming from NYC from a rited pianist who needs to down size. I can't wait to play her Petrof after hearing hour demonstration. I will tell her to check out your video. Thanks again. On another note, I am sure your Dad is watching from above your success and is very proud of your!
Thank you very much! This is EXACTLY the kind of video I was looking for to better orient myself on the piano market! Thank you!
I learn so much from your videos... Thank you! Hoping to one day purchase a small grand piano from you to replace my 47-year old, not-so-great console piano. In the meantime, I'm absorbing all of the information you provide in your videos and appreciate all of them! Happy new year to you.
What a gorgeous ambience. It is a paradise for those who have the piano in their hearts. I love Petrof's sound.
Fascinating and well done; probably the perfect piece for that comparison. It's not that one is better than the other but that they are different and can both be beautiful under the right hand (hands?). Your best vignette on the art of piano playing so far.
Robert, thank you again for doing another side-by-side comparison. Like the last time, I tend to like the European pianos. That Petrof had a lush tone, while the American Steinway was more brash. "Clair de Lune" is such a soft, dreamy piece that sounds best on the gentler European pianos like my favorite, a Bechstein or the Petrof you played.
Great video not just about pianos, but about the nuanced playing of noble music.
Wow, super. Learned something new today. Thanks Robert.
So beautifully insightful review! Thank you so much.
What a gorgeous-sounding Steinway. I also like the Petrof.
I have a Petrof pii, 1980s vintage here in NZ. Dream come true to have such a nice piano. Has a gorgeous tone and action. It was exported from Japan in 2012, sharing a 20ft container full of Kawai and Yamaha uprights.
Really excellent presentation.
Beautiful music. Merry Christmas , Good Sir.
I always learn something valuable from your videos
Great explanation through the analogies of the French horn and race cars.
Similar to violins-- Strads are often twitchier, Guarneris can tolerate (or require) more muscle.
thanks! great video. prefer the Petrof sound!
A big thank you for this video which sums up perfectly my feeling since I acquired my Steinway (a fantastic 1921 German B), three years ago, after having had a French Pleyel, two Erard and a fabulous large Blüthner, all around 1900. The Steinway is without doubt the one which has the most potential but it does not allow itself to be dimmed as the others, although it is perfectly restored, regulated and voiced. I had to change my whole playing technique, work on the arch of my hand and the intensity of my touch and body to get a convincing result but even today, I still feel like I'm pedaling hard on a bike that's too big for me. And from time to time, I miss the extraordinarily natural medium of the Pleyel, the infinite bouquet of harmonics so easy to produce on the Blüthner or the incredible liveliness of the Erard. And at the same time, I have never progressed so much in my technique... Many thanks for all your video’s and greetings from Brussels!
loved this video, congrats!
gorgeous and well done commend wow
Very interesting!!! Thank you very much!
I have a 9' Petrov at home, and in my work regularly play four different Steinway Ds and also a few Bs. The Petrov is in great shape, and I love it, and after living with it now for many years, certain aspects of it have spoiled me, and I feel disappointed whenever I play any other piano. Specifically, the bass register on the Petrov is so powerful and resonant, yet clean and responsive. For example, playing the opening of the Beethoven Waldstein Sonata, or the 16th notes in the left hand leading up to the recapitulation, is easy and thrilling: the intervals sound clear, and in the 16th note passage, the passage is well articulated and easy to balance with the right hand. On the Steinway, those intervals, especially the ones other than a fifth, sound muddy and fat; it is difficult to give them the brisk energy they need. The 16th note passage sounds garbled, foggy and washed out--or at least one has to work very hard to overcome that quality. However, the Steinway is a great piano, and I love its refined, golden tone, especially in the treble areas. All pianists will have some sound ideal which they try to realize no matter what brand of piano, and good pianos will help inspire and educate that ideal. Good hammer voicing can really make a huge difference in piano tone. Acoustics, of course, also influence how one plays. There is a constant need to adjust from instrument to instrument, depending on action weight, condition, acoustics, etc., as well as characteristics peculiar to certain brands. I once played a small Petrov grand in a concert which took place in a huge old cathedral with very pronounced reverberation, but on the recording that was made of this concert the piano sounded marvelous and almost like a concert grand. In no way did it sound like some off-brand piano. I have noticed, by the way, that the best way to hear a piano is to be at least 15 feet away. My own piano sounds better to me when I am not sitting at the keyboard. The practice of placing microphones right inside the piano, sometimes inches away from the strings, has damaged the sound of the piano for countless recordings, and made people confused about how to listen when they hear a live piano recital.
Nice video. For me the best piano is Bosendorfer, second Petrof, third Steinway and last Fazioli.
Bösendorfer, petrof, fazioli, then Steinway for me. Steinway is just so over branded. It just doesn't sound as good anymore.
For me Bechstein and August Förster first, then Steinway and Petrof.
interesting , thank you and best wishes for 2019
Useful for people who do not have access to these pianos to compare! I liked the analogy of the race car.
I love your channel!
"Claire de Lune" on the Petrof sounds harp-like. Are the hammers on the Petrof located farther along the strings so that the harmonics are mellower? I'm curious how Petrof accomplishes such a delicate sound.
Nicely done Robert! I have a side note question regarding Clair de Lune... For the first 25 measures or so, are you using the sostenuto pedal to sustain the notes in the left hand? For example, in measure 15, the low e flat... I have been experimenting with this some. Just wanted your thoughts. Thanks!
The comparison with the race car was interesting :)
I didn't know you were a French horn player also. Do you play French horn in any orchestras?
Are there differences of the sound and the playing of an Steinway made in Hamburg and one that was produced in New York?
That was quite interesting, didn’t expect that their was that much different. Could you also make a video where you elaborate the difference to a Japanese pianos (kawai and Yamaha)?
Here you go: czcams.com/video/OGy0ZLlxmjg/video.html
@@TheLivingPiano This applies to the previous generations from these makes. The new Yamahas have a noticeably different sound than the older ones. And Kawai keeps evolving their sound as well. With Japanese instruments, there's no golden era. They just keep evolving and Yamaha, especially, has noticeably changed their tone and I think the "new" tone is influenced by the marque they acquired, Bosendorfer. I actually like the newer premium Yamahas (SX and CF series) better for Classical music now than jazz. And the Shigeru Kawai is a shimmering yet rich and deep sounding instrument in its own rite. And yes, you play a Kawai differently than a Yamaha and both differently than a Steinway. I think you play all piano marques differently and even from series to series and upright to grand.
@@benjaminsmith2287 The main reason for the recent improvement in Yamaha pianos is that they bought Bosendorfer, an Austrian company, in 2008 and now own all of Bosendorfer's piano design and building technology. Yamaha pianos built after 2008 incorporate Bosendorfer scale design and other features found in German and Austrian pianos. Older Yamaha pianos were very bright and strident, and sometimes annoying. New Yamaha pianos actually sound quite good.
@@frazzledude That's not always the case and I feel an unfair rap that Yamaha gets. Regarding the new Yamahas, Yamaha has had input from various musicians on creating and modifying their sound and the feedback from many prototypes went into the CFX which is the basis of sound for the SX and CX lines. If there's any Bosendorfer influence, it came very late in the development of the CFX. There were several pre-Bosendorfer ownership Yamaha models that were not bright and strident. Pianos like the CFIIIS, S4 and S6, and some of the C series like the CMs come to mind. Some U-series and other uprights weren't always bright and strident, either. Play enough Yamahas and you'll certainly find those that were neither particularly bright and certainly not strident. There is a characteristic key strike and what I call a "light bodied" sound to Yamahas that continue to the present ones.
The touching of both Yamaha and Kawai is very different.
Kawai is more like Petrof, deeper tone (like more bass) and a little bit muffle.
While Yamaha more like Steinway, clearer clarity and brighter tone.
For keyboard touching wise, I play majority both Yamaha and Kawai but never play a Steinway or Petrof before, so I can't tell you how they feel.
The keyboard of Yamaha is very light, very suitable for running and lively passage like Bach or Handel while keyboard of Kawai is quite dense touching and might be a little bit hard in control for sound volume because the keyboard touching just hard and heavy.
As my preference, I like the touching of Yamaha but love the tone that Kawai gave.
Wow! Looks like you have completed a beautiful showroom since I was there last! Although, since I had so little time to spend then, I may have missed it. :)
That was an interesting comparison. Is part of the difference in the hardness of the hammers? Is the Petrof comparable to the Fazioli? I've heard some of Andre Rieu's concerts where the Fazioli is used, with beautiful sound. I also really like Claire de Lune. Well played.
That was a hell of a great sound for a camera mic. I hope to see many other videos like this one, Mr. Estrin. The auto tracking camera is pretty useful but gives me somewhat of an eerie feeling, I'd have it exorcised haha.
You and merriam are one of the best youtubers, very enthousiastic and real pianists and you are profs. thanks for al those wonderful vids'!Greetings from the Netherlands.
If I have a Kimball 580S “Viennese Classic,” which is designed by Bösendorfer but made in Indiana, is it supposed to behave more American or more European? It has a Schwander action also...
I have to say that I much preferred the Steinway. Totally shocked me as it typically goes the other way for me when I see these Steinway comparisons, but that one sounds gorgeous
It's an unfair comparison because of the recording, not the playing. I think he made his point well in terms of the dynamic performance, but the tonal quality of each instrument was severely affected by the recording technique.
The microphone (camera) position was much lower and further away on the Petrov, so it lacked some of the upper harmonics you heard on the Steinway. Also, it sounds to me, in the Pertrov shot, that the camera was placed on a flat surface which, if any part of the surface extended past the front of the microphone, would have caused severe comb filtering of the upper harmonics. The Steinway shot seemed to be hand-held, which would have likely eliminated that upper harmonic comb filtering. Also, the Petrov was up against a wall, which causes comb filtering that is quite prominent in the lower mids, between about 300 and 600 Hz. Always avoid recording any acoustic instrument positioned closer than an average man's arm's span from a reflective surface. Having an instrument up against a wall really messes with that mid-frequency range. Of course, the floor is another problem, but you can't do much about that, except to perhaps place a thick rug or cushions about halfway between the instrument and the microphone (in a concert hall having the piano close to the stage edge and not having the microphones over the stage can also eliminate this problem. It looks like the same floor is across the entire room and would have been consistent with both pianos, except that holding the camera closer to the floor would cause the comb filtering to affect shorter wavelengths (higher frequencies) than the higher microphone position.
My overall message is that this is not a fair comparison of the tonal differences between the two instruments. The value of the comparison is in what Robert says about playing style and dynamics, which is fascinating.
It depends on your mood.. I know that I will want to play the Petrof one day however the Steinway the other day..it is hard to pick..
素敵な音。
Thank you for uploading this video. Do you have a playlist consisting of all the 1v1 Piano and Composers and other comparisons.
All of our videos are searchable by keywords here: livingpianos.com/blog/
Robert Estrin,Thank you
Had the chance to play a 1950's petrof grand piano, out of this world.
Which model?
@@historischetechnik4875 I didn't catch it, let's just say I wasn't even supposed to be in the room...
If you look at vintage instruments, there are many American pianos to choose from. If you look at newer instruments, only Charles Walter, Mason and Hamlin and NY Steinway to choose from. European instruments differ from one another and from different periods. I think you just have to make adjustments from piano to piano and depending on the tech's voicing. Yes, in general, the older American pianos had a fatter sound. But listening to that Petrof, it sounds quite different than the one I used to have.
Great video and comparison. But my favorite part is seeing the "Bob Estrin in Concert" posters on the wall next to the Petrof!
I prefer the FAZIOLI pianos, but Steinway and Petrof are also great.
The Steinway is more resonant and broad sounding, which is my personal preference when playing. I have a 1962 Steinway D that I've had for over 40 years and I wouldn't have any other. I've played all the European/American brands...one isn't necessarily better than the other; it's up to personal preferences/technique, in my opinion. My favorite European is Fazioli.
Wonderful expressive playing. Both magnificent instruments. I would buy that Petrof. I have a feeling that Glen Gould tortured himself over the heavy american action, having his piano techs rework steinways to turn them into responsive light hair trigger instruments, when he could have played anything else, a Yamaha or a Petrof, and been happier.
I have to struggle to hear the problems in the badly played examples. I hear a bit of flatness, lack of variation, expressive "singing" quality to the poorer playing. It's a very good listening exercise. I'm listening with quite good quality headphones. I would love more future videos on technique for bringing out this expressive quality sound that a good pianist is working towards.
Robert! This is a great video - extremely educational. What about pieces that are louder? Could you possibly do a video on the approach to playing loud pieces (slow or running notes) on an Euporean & an American piano? :D
That's a great suggestion. I hope to have the opportunity to present videos like that when travel is less restricted.
How is that camera moving by itself?
Ahah nice that we all wondered about the vidéo. Does he have some sort of gimball ..?
Probably something like the "SMOVE" camera stabilizer. You can google it to find videos of how they work.
The Force. That's Luke Skywalker.
Beautiful and informative comparison. The sound I heard is a personal thing, as it is for everyone else who has listened to this short video. For "me" the Petrof was vastly superior. At the beginning of your playing the Steinway, it almost sounded 'dead' compared to the Petrof. To have had both instruments side by side would have been more realistic, the difference in positioning in that showroom was significant. Have you ever been able to do similar comparisons using a C.Bechstein or a Bosendorfer Imperial? Your thoughts about the lightness of touch you described when using the Petrof... a Bechstein would be at another level beyond the Petrof, and miles above the Steinway. Without a shadow of doubt, the Bechstein has the finest action of all the quality concert grands.
One final thought- I wonder what a similar comparison would be like if you had an American manufactured Steinway alongside a Steinway manufactured in Germany ? Now there's a challenge.
Thank you for a super video, greatly appreciated.
My dream piano is a Petrof
Well, my opinion is, that the New York Steinways are the best pianos in the world! Second best pianos in the world are Petrof! :) :) :) Best wishes from Slovakia! :)
Interesting. I'm going through a lot of these videos because I'm about to buy a piano soon, and in the comments, everyone is saying that the Hamburg produced Steinways are superior to the New York Steinways.
Ugh, the camera mic ruined everything, why couldn't they use the good quality mics from the good old videos!?
From which years are the pianos?
This is why it's so impossible for me to play Chopin on my Kawai -- the bass drowns out the treble clef. :/ Tbh I have no idea how to solve this. I mean it just gets drowned out. It's hard for me to have a light touch in just one hand but not the other.
What an insteresting video!
By the way, did you camera had a tracking device?
Yes - we use the latest technologies!
How about a piano give-away? My old Aeolian needs to be replaced and I don't play the lottery. Seriously, I enjoy watching, listening, and furthering my music education. Thanks! :)
It also matters where and what you are playing. I would take the Steinway any day if I am playing in a concert hall, especially when I am playing a concerto. And that's what concert grands are designed for.
You are right! One of the reasons that Steinway is so popular in concerts is that the sound can match a symphony orchestra. Yet some Steinways are better suited to chamber music. This is true of other great piano manufacturers as well
Petrof: Czech Brand.
The Steinway is a little more hard in middle and hight than Ptrof.In the basse tones Steinway is a litlle more strong...But petrof is more delicate and sound more romantic...I like both..
I am shock petrof piano sound.. amazing 😮
Don't forget acoustics. Petrof was situated against a wall where Steinway was in the middle of a reverberant field.
1:26 Petrof (playing for Petrof)
3:32 Steinway (playing for Steinway)
5:17 Steinway (playing for Petrof)
6:52 Steinway (playing for Steinway again)
8:39 Petrof (playing for Steinway)
Why is there that difference? Like physically in the piano what causes the difference?
Cool
Excellent comparison. That really helped me decide as I was contemplating a Petrof. Interesting analog to US vs European sensibilities all around. The Steiner is more macho. You have to lean into it, be more aggressive. It's a more blended sound. You have to work harder to have the melody come out from the chords. The Petrof more delicate, focused as he says, elegant. Doesn't require machismo to get a good sound from it. In fact leaning too hard on it makes it sound harsh, whereas playing the Steiner too soft makes it sound like mud. US vs Europe. Indicated by piano build and playing techniques lol. I'd like to hear other pianos added to the mix. Since we know typically set up Yammers are rather bright and harsh. Good for rock and roll. Any piano tho, can be set up at least to some degree, within it's limitations, to be hardened or softened. So, in conclusion, it's a Petrof for me. For one thing it's going in a carpeted room with high ceilings. Put a Steiner in there and it will take more effort to get her to sing. Any thoughts on Fazioli?
Petrol, like Fazzioli have the old Viena sound.
J'aimerais vous voir en concert ! En faites-vous?
Do you have a preference?
Wow! THE Petrof is amazing. NEVER judge a piano by its label. It sounds similar to a Pleyel.
The Steinway sounds more precise and is great, the Petrof sounds gentler but it was against the wall so you're going to get a massive difference in sound. And like you said it doesn't need much finger strength to play the Petrof.
The Petrof Pasat is my favorite Piano in the middle range. The concert level I love Fazzioli pianos
I prefer the Petrof, but I play a Weinbach grand so maybe I'm biased :)
You didn't mention the action, I'm guessing the Steinway is heavier than the Petrov. Also the Petrov is next to a partition not in he middle of the room, which amplifies the sound, assuming they are the same size piano. Would the Petrov match the Steinway volume in a large concert hall? This is the important test! If it does the job with less physical effort then hats off to Petrov, which also seems to have has a more beautiful sound.
Both actions are quite fluid and on the lighter side. The Accelerated action of the Steinway may be a tad lighter than the Renner action in this particular Petrof. As for volume, this Steinway D is a powerhouse instrument. We have another Steinway D right next to it that is also a great piano, yet more appropriate for chamber music. So, I wouldn't say that Petrof or Steinway are necessarily fundamentally louder one to the other. It depends more upon the specific piano.
My petrof pii has a lighter action (renner) than any Steinway i have played. As a result, I find Steinway tiring after a few hours of playing. Its hard work.
I'd practice on petrof upright and learn on the steinway grand. The steinway would stay down as lighter to me plus the keys are slightly larger .
Petra sells a ton of pianos. Pianos before about 2000 are pretty spotty in quality. Not many people can afford a SteinWay. There’s probably 100 Petroff for every SteinWay out there. I prefer the SteinWay Richer Fuller sound.
Petrof has always been to bright for my taste! Every time I play it I work harder holding the sound back than I ever do developing a beautiful tone on my steinwayL. Either brand is wonderful!
Robert - what facility are you playing from? Is this a piano showroom?
That was our showroom in Orange County, California!
5:17 I actually prefer this way of playing
Petrof is the best!
No, that would be August Förster :-)
That's amazing to me that you also play French horn we are one in the same. I played French horn for 6 years grade school through High School. And I've been playing all my life on piano. To me nothing beats the Steinway Model D. Which I played in Orchestra in Community College. There was a refurbished Baldwin from 1932 that was a full-size Grand which sounded phenomenal as well. I love your videos and I love your passionate explanation of the pianos.
Try comparing them with the Stuart & sons big grand.
I like the Petrof
Is there a difference between the petrof upright and the petrof grand
There are fundamental differences between upright and grand pianos: livingpianos.com/upright-versus-grand-pianos/
@@LivingPianosVideos thanks. I'm aware 😊 just think the sound of the petrof upright was nicer than the grand's 😺
May I know what's the song name? 1:26
胖海豚 its claire de lune, he said it seceral times in the video btw
@@ihsanardinel Thank you very much!
Steinway concert grands are designed to match volume with a full symphony orchestra without distorting and fracturing notes at maximum volume.
Chamber musicians, accompanists, soloists at home, need a more nuanced piano.
Great soloists can adapt if they must, but have preferences.
Horses for courses.
Talking with young concert pianist "How do you cope when confronted with all makes of pianos in different venues, all of which are promised in good condition?" "It can be tricky because 'good condition' is interpreted so widely. But I always feel relieved to see a Steinway; they like me to play their pianos." Cautionary bells ringing in my mind at that statement. Quid pro quo?
Is Petrof the greatest value in the grand piano market?
I like Petrof more! I have at home Petrof upright piano and in Music school we have cpncert piano Petrof they are beautiful instrumenys!
I actually preferred your "Petrof playing" on the Steinway over the "correct Steinway" playing on the Steinway. Petrof on Petrof was best, though.
Me too :-) "Petrof playing" on the Steinway wasn't lifeless, it was dreamy and refined.
Petrof won this round. I'm surprised actually.... I'm used to playing a Steinway D that seems to breathe better than that one....