Is the Akai Force Worth It in 2023?
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- čas přidán 22. 05. 2024
- A semi-review / analysis / demonstration of the Akai Force in light of its many firmware updates and the release of the standalone Ableton Push 3.
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Timestamps:
00:00 Intro/background
01:05 What is the Akai Force
02:03 Sound engines
06:26 User interface
09:19 The biggest advantage over the Push 3
09:46 Value for money
11:45 Arranger view
14:34 Who should (or shouldn't) use the Force
17:32 The verdict
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I think the force is the coolest thing Akai has ever made.
I agree. By a longshot, when it comes to finding something that isn't stuck in the MPC style UI. It just needs proper time signature changing and drum explode for export and it's gooooood to go.
I also liked the move but after having it for a year I wouldn't say I'm still amazed.
@@auraaudio673 i'm still holding out for them to fix the Clunky as hell MIdi-learn in standalone MPC OS. it's such a workflow killer.
I’m real happy. I bought it just as a drum machine/ synth combo. But it gave me so much more.
I agree
It took me a while to learn the Force and I didn't like it at first. These days I won't use anything else though, the workflow is fast, powerful, and it's great for live performance. You can sketch ideas quickly but if you want to go deep, you can. Force is the brain for my whole studio. I also just got the Juno synth for it (Jura) and it sounds amazing. The Force team has added some massive features over many software updates as well which is great.
Something missed when talking about the Force is it's greatness as a midi controller. You have 64 pads to assign Midi Macros. You have 16 crossfader banks, with 1 macro on A and B sides, You have a bank of 4 XY screens that can be split to 8 columns or quadrants to assign midi macros. And for the creme de la creme.....You have 128 banks of 16 Knobs that can also be used like buttons, all with oled screens. If only force could send midi notes in a macro and had more robust options like accel, decel and step increase the Force would be hands down the greatest midi controller ever made. You can add those features with a midi processing box if really needed though. A used Force is well worth it's price for just its midi controller potentiental alone.
I TOTALLY AGREE -That's EXACTLY Why I bought MINE!😎 I have MULTIPLE choices 4 sound design & sequencing @ my disposal (incl. 624HP of CV>MIDI-Capable Modular w/6 different DAW Clk-Controlled sequencers) & can design my OWN Sounds!😈 And, I DON'T do 'Dub-Step' -I DO Prog/Free Jazz/Ambient.👽
May the Force be with you‼️
Excellent quote "good instrument don't go bad"
I played a live show with my Force in Nov 2021, and I used a tape deck and a Circuit Rhythm on different channels of my mixer to bridge the gaps between songs when I needed to load a new project on the Force. My new goal is to add a second Force and bounce between the two, that way transitions are on the outro of one song on the L Force, and the intro of the song on the R Force.
I added spontaneity during my live set by adding live keys, guitar, vocals, knob tweaking on a 303, etc. You could still do that on 2 Forces, and it's also possible to have tempo changes while the Forces are synced together using Ableton Link via ethernet cable.
I am playing techno live and started recently to use Force for that. Played couple of shows for 400 and 800 people in Germany, and it was quite good.
Yeah, tempo changes and warping is very shitty, agree with that.
There is a workaround for audio tracks. You can load long samples into drum tracks and it does the job!
I am using Circuit together with Force and it gives me possibility to have a nice part of improvisation live, and at the same time Force's effects allow me to have a better mix going out to the PA.
I made a crappy video of my live setup, because I found that there were not so much of this covered on CZcams.
Great video Gabe! I had an MPC ONE, great machine truely, but it just didn't work for me, I felt like I was spending too much time menu diving and not completing anything. I switched to the force and I LOVE it! Is it perfect, no, but what device is? I'm sticking with the Force, for better or worse, at least I feel productive on it! Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge with the rest of us. Peace. Bill
Thank you! You covered everything I wanted to know and many things more! 🙂
I totally agree with your statement about taking the Akai Force over the MPC X SE. Great video and very balanced view of some of it's strengths and limitations. I actually prefer working standalone on the Force more than I enjoyed Push 2 when I used to use it. I owned Push when it first came out and upgraded to Push 2 before the Force was released and used that until I bought the Force. The updates have gradually made this device a very useful creative tool and much more. Still much improvements are needed, but those needed improvements do not prevent a user from making some dope music.
The touchscreen and knobs are also.good things in the Force.
Was looking forward to this video, and I'm not disappointed! I'm also part of the niche who really likes the Force's workflow. I had wanted something like it for about 20 years before it finally existed, and I'm very happy with it. I could see a standalone Push eventually becoming a better product, but that hasn't happened yet and the Push 3 might never reach that point.
The Force is by far the best user interface and workflow of MPC/Maschine/Ableton and the only thing that stops me from using it is that it doesn’t change time signatures or tempos. It’s been a paperweight since I got the Live Mk2 but if they ever add useable time signature changes I’d probably sell every other groove box for it.
Whats also good for releasing only software instead of hardware is you have a device that gets further developed in function as it almost holds everything you actually need to make music specs wise (at least if your not going crazy) and not having to buy a new device because yours get outdated/not updated anymore even though i would rather have more firmware updates since i almost always use my external Synths
If you look at Force as an element in a larger setup it makes more sense than the only thing to use in a set.
ABSOLUTELY! My POINT EXACTLY!😎
Not sure I agree with this, because it is probably the best standalone piece of hardware currently on the market alongside the Deluge. It totally can be used in the way you're describing, but works just as well, or better, as the centrepiece and/or on its own
The force is the brains for my creative process. I am still learning after having it for 2 to 3 years. All the updates that have been made to this machine make it a completely different machine than it was when it was originally released. I agree you have to devote alot of time into remembering the shift commands to be proficient. Some rethinking needs to be done with the overall machine layout to make it easier to just sit down in front of it and start using it. Hopefully many of these things get worked out in future versions as well as the tempo changing issues that everyone has complained about from day one.
I follow you so I indeed know this is facts for you, hell might jump back onboard with this, I just need to relearn it and understand the benefits of disk streaming. Do you have vids tutorials on this? 6-10-23
As a long-standing Ableton (and Push) user, I tried a Force (bought second-hand) because I had really hoped for a standalone live performance machine and thought the Force might be “it”. Despite trying hard, I just *couldn’t* mesh my Ableton DAW brain with what the Force could do and workflow I expected wasn’t immediately accessible in the Force. It’s not that it was bad, *AT ALL*, but when I tried to reach for a given functionality I just couldn’t get it to do what I needed. The Push3 scratches that itch. All I need, in a workflow that makes sense to me, and standalone mode to boot.
Great Video Gabe, answers a lot of my questions on "why I bought this product", and that was to build studio based songs, and not DJ which this does, although found a nasty bug today which is no Audition on Midi sounds when selecting melodic expansions, also AKAI have repeated all of the melodic sounds as the same, and sneakily renamed them differently.. Logged a ticket with InMusic, could be a faulty sample list...
I'd love a scaled down, portable version of Maschine+ with the Forces ability to arrange in a linear way. If they perhaps had different versions with one primarily focused on sequencing and sampling rather than running vst instruments that I could use with some hardware synths.
Hi! Very good video! Can you make one on how programming of the Force works? For macros, effects, EQing, etc.
Haha The Build Knob is great! Gonna try that since my macros got mainly a maximum of 2 controls 😄
I don't think enough has been made about how many updates the Force has gotten since launch. It is still getting new features. This contradicts the "just milking the customer" argument.
Also, disk streaming with drumkits allows a lot of flexibility with audio tracks.
Tempo and time signature changes are the biggest omissions.
The Force is really good for songwriting when you want to combine instrunents and vocals with samples and synths (as opposed to being built mainly for sample-based workflow).
The PUSH was originally produced and made by AKAI for ABLETON and I believe there's a non-compete clause in there somewhere thus they will always for the most part be different from each other in terms of mileage !
That "you now legally have to like the video" was the smoothest plug ever lol I never like any videos but I pressed like on this one
I use it primarily as a midi router and it works great.
Shots fired at the end. Bang bang!
In all seriousness, there is something for all of us to jam. Find it and go to town on it! Stay safe young Jedi.
man, looking to update from the digitakt. i want the big guns. thanks for the up to date shiiit
Kind of wild your channel isn’t bigger. You come up every time I search anything like this and I always end up watching your stuff all the way through. So many people make these videos but sadly have no business making music.
Wait a minute did you mentioned the Force is a Record Sample In(Input externa)-I mean quarter inch->in to record your own sample without having a Daw(Ableton) do the work. Glad you cover the Tempo Control.
I'd definitely do some vile deeds to see something resembling DJ software for the Force: the hardware already has the prerequisite knobs for standalone DJing, but obviously the software features like tempo nudging on individual files, improved tempo detection, a proper UI, etc etc etc is a challenge to make. I'm looking at the Mockbamod with great interest: maybe they'll have an addon first...
This was an honest review. BTW you can turn off the long press to change tracks in the setting HARDWARE menu: TRACK SELECT BUTTONS: pick SELECT TRACK. It's currently on Disable in NOTES and STEP SEQ which is cool so that when your finger drumming your not changing the tracks by mistake over & over. The long-press act as a buffer.
Good to know! I actually like the long-press as the buffer that you mentioned, it's just an easy example of a feature that's easy to use, but not necessarily obvious to figure out.
@Gabe Miller Music that's Akai style. Love it or hate it. Gotta know them shortcuts & workarounds to get the best out the Force/MPCs.
@@GabeMillerMusiccould also help avoiding to change a track by accident while finger drumming. The track select buttons might be hit accidentally. I think you can also hold down select and then use the buttons without long press...
@@auraaudio673 That's what I meant by buffer
Gabe thank you once again for your peristence - I have tried a number of times over the past couple of years to have the Force as the 'brain' of my DAWless setup but it just doesn't...quite.. do it. Right now I've gone back to using the Keystep as my main sequencer and plugging in / out individual devices as the tracks demand. Such a shame as the Force has been my most expensive book-end ever, closely followed by the Deluge. Sorely tempted by the Push 3 but the stand-alone price is eye-piercing. The search goes on!
Glad you liked the video. From what I've found there's really no perfect one option, just something that clicks with an individual person the most, where they can do all the main stuff they want to do and put up with the pain points.
Can you not run the Keystep through the Force, sequence on the Keystep, then record that into midi clips on the Force?
Having had the force for a while, I can see using it in a live situation alone would not be the best. It could however be used as a sound module for a keyboard rig, but like you said, a bit over and under kill. I am currently working on a setup with both my iPad running Loopy Pro and the Akai force. This could give me the best of both worlds and if I can get it right, the iPad could pickup on the force short comings and the force could be a good midi/sound module/drum machine/clip launcher. Of course if you are just starting out, the price of a force, iPad, and accessories would be close to the push 3. But I have slowly built my setup over the years so just trying to use what I have and know.
Great video.
The Force is great for old school industrialist like me. Simple 4 pieces, a little extras and I'm good to go.
I bought the MPC Live 2 because there wasn't a Push 3 at the time. As you're on a groovebox quest, I'm curious about your experiences with the Push 3.
Mini D and Jura added such quality synth sounds that I don't mind being milked. Force is my favorite piece of gear and I've been buying junk since the mid 90s.
Way too expensive though - if they'd been smart and sold them for £20 each, probably every single MPC user would have every one. But the insane pricing means I won't buy any.
@@robinr22 I mean, hey, I wouldn't have minded paying less, for sure.
@@robinr2220 dollars for a standalone VST? your trippin
@@user-ug4xv1dn1z TAL-U-No-62. Not £20 - free.
Thanks for the video!
Force is a lovely machine. If it had a flip on screen this could be easily the best machine out there for full dawless production. I really dont understand why MPCs sell more that this gem. I would buy it a second time….
Waiting for the Force 2
Music technology has become an addictive drug where the user is always wanting more and never being content with what is. Limitations breeds creativity, and creativity has long been lost nowadays. The Force and the latest generation of MPC's would replace WHOLE studio's 20 years ago. Look at the music that was created back then and the history it has stamped with that technology. Now people completly ostracize a piece of gear cause it doesn't have tempo automation or 3/4 time division options!!! Smh... noone will ever be happy....nothing will ever be good enough...
I agree. I see people calling the Force obsolete because the PUSH 3 is out now. So if the Force worked fine for you yesterday why doesn't it work for you today. The PUSH 3 is cool but it doesn't do things the Force does. Like I can have the screen show my clips, my knob control something else completely, and my pads play an instrument. All independent of each other. The Push can't do that. I can have project level macros that control multiple instruments or parameters, those macros can be controlled by the screen, pads or knobs. The Push 3 can't do that. The Force has combi audio jacks with phantom power so I can connect an actual microphone to the machine. The Push can't do that. The Push 3 can do a lot, most of it owing to the software Ableton took decades to build, but as a hardware device/groovebox imo it's lacking, regardless of how cool MPE is, especially for the price.
@apoclypse I know its a wonderful thing, and does more than most people that bitch about it can do with it. Overstumulated egos don't produce music, they tend to just marvel at what a tool can do, and not what they can do with the tool....
I disagree that creativity has been lost these days, but I am sympathetic to annoyance with people never being content. I think some of that discontent comes from a device seeming to promise more than it can actually deliver. I want to acknowledge limitations of something to make sure that potential customers know *exactly* what they're getting, while also praising the good bits. To be clear, I think the Force is a very powerful, capable device that I really enjoy. It's just got some jank or omissions that might turn people off.
It's awesome that a single device can do the job of what used to be an entire studio, no? I disagree about creativity being lost these days though... it's just that people who make awesome creative stuff are generally busy doing that instead of chatting in the comment section, so in chat there is an over-representation of people who would rather complain than create.
@ToyKeeper I should rephrase that statement to creativity spawns from different sources these days, it has evolved, like everything else for that matter. Its not making fire with two sticks and dead grass anymore....
You can hold EDIT and touch a QLink to edit it quickly.
I own the Force and what really put me off it is the dreadful company… ‘inmusic’ which own Akai and now as Moog. The updates are often never explained and break more things than they fix. The toxicity of a lot of the facebook group, who love to blame anyone who points out the above (I suspect work for ‘inmusic’) and the incredibly counter intuitive interface that makes even the simplest tasks complex. MIDI learn on the Force is so painfully slow it’s pointless. Akai are aware of all the difficulties with this but just ignore all this whilst try to sell new features which no one asked for whilst ignoring issues that obviously need fixing. Oh and what I learned from buying a Force is when ever thinking of buying any musical instrument listen to what producers are masking on it. 99% is bland generic ‘beats’ techno or worse, hip hop that I would never make or choose to listen to. That should of been the thing that stopped me paying £1000 for this clunky machine that now lies under my bed while I play my guitar.
for playing live sets, two Forces is the way.
you don't see DJs 's using one deck, heck some DJ's run 4x CDJs and that gets real expensive.
My big bugbear with the Force is that I intended to use mine as a hardware sequencer, the fact you can program patch changes is a god send. The issue is, all clip launches are instant, whether individually triggered or from row.
They should run till the end of sequence like any other sequencer, if you can do bank and patch change, which most sequencers are not capable of, then something like this option should be a must.
Play longest clip till end before selected row begins, play clip till end before next clip selected begins.
I don't think it would be a hard thing to implement.
This is what stops me using it as a dedicated sequencer, as I intended to use.
You've got launch quantize turned off. Turn it on and it'll do what you need
This is incorrect. You can set launch quantize value using SHIFT and the 2nd from bottom row buttons.
there are other parts to an MPC that I haven't really seen talked about on the akai. You can use an MPC to control external synths and program them with midi, while still being able to tweak knobs on the synth to change the sound. You can sample in stereo live into the MPC to layer sounds etc. I'm assuming all these are possible on the force?
Yes, it can do all that. Force does _almost_ everything the MPC does, with the main difference being the high-level song structure and workflow. MPC uses patterns, Force uses clips+arranger, and almost everything else is the same.
I just use my force as a start off sketchpad and sometimes as a direct instrument plugged into my daw.
The single reason I picked up the MPC+ over the Force is time signatures. MPCs allow time signatures other than 4/4 (and the ability to have an 3/4 bar in the middle of a 4/4 song, for instance). The Force does not. A real shame, because it’s a powerful piece of kit.
100% the reason I got rid of it! For real that and drum explode. 😢 I tried the MPC One after that and then got rid of it for the Push 2. For the way I write (playing all my parts) it is such a bottle neck process with MPC in comparison... but the time signature thing. So sad haha. So the options are an overpriced Push 3 and Akai Force. Either way you lose a lot of functionality. Both are powerful as hell though.
You can have clips with different bars, so clip 1 can be 4 bars, clip 2 is 3 bars, clip 3 is 1.3 bars.
This guy did a demo on this topic: czcams.com/video/oKpQPPQtSTg/video.html
@@Noise-Conductor Yeah, you can add beats to clips, but you can't change global time signature out of 4/4 so it gets weird and clunky. Especially if you wanna do odd time signature with 8th note division, like 7/8
@@Noise-Conductor Also, if you want a clip to be more than 1 bar in an odd signature, the math gets annoying real fast haha. It's a fairly straightforward calculation to make, but it's still annoying.
@@Noise-Conductor yes, I saw that - but the clip/row launching system starts to fall apart pretty quickly. For now, this is one area where the MPC line is the better choice. I'll keep an eye on the Force, though. You never know, Akai might add that feature.
Dude Gabe Miller Music, timely. I'm about to buy the Force. Even former longtime Ableton cats and kittens are bad-mouthing Push. I'd rather not mention her by name, but a certain gal worked in Live Support and questions both Ableton and the P-3. She's a high-profile blogger and still uses Live.
Sound on Sound whom I trust, gave it a great review but said the pads still not great. For 1900 bucks. Worst of all, not everyone unhappy about not get any replies from Support can be lying kids who really didn't have the money to buy Push and are now whining just to get their money back. T
Anyway, I've been working non-stop on a Live project - version 11.3.4 working fine, LOL.
I can't wait to quit for the night and watch your review of The Force.
P.S. Subscribed. I swore off all scripts as I'm too busy but this channel is worth it. You're an intelligent person- so I'm in.
Yeah the Push honeymoon phase seems to be over for people, but it still looks like it's going to be a big part of the next generation of audio gadgets. The Force still has its place for people who can really vibe with its capabilities and limitations. Glad the video was helpful!
how is it for replacing a daw in terms of recording real instruments with it?
Akai Force is literally the best in the league. The Force sounds amazing too. The Force is so intuitive and does everything that Ableton does but I personally think its easier to use. Its touch features are amazing.
🎉 🥇🏆
Maschine+’s synths and fx are next level, but at the cost of cpu management and flattening to sample. And the build quality is phenomenal. But CZcams clickBait bitches killed it, and NI stopped porting over Reaktor and Reaktor content, after making it stable. I might sell my force, the mpc time-stretching, size, wide pads (unplayable in chromatic mode for me) are it’s week points. I love the mpc chopping on it, the midi/audio routing flexibility is great, clip-launching is cool, but I’m not mad for the sequencer, no group of clip launching or elektron step probability. I’m going back to my deluge for sequencer/clip launching, with a launchpad for chromatic pads. As for Push, aye I’ve got gas, but not enough to drop £2.5k on it and a licence.
Did you think about buying Synthstrom Deluge anytime before? Why did you decide to not get one? I bought one a few weeks ago and I am in love with it.
I'll get there eventually!
Deluge is great and has a similar feature set (in broad terms) but a very different interface, so it's harder to learn and harder to access and use the features even after learning. However, Deluge also just went open-source, so it's very possible that the interface and workflow shortcomings could be addressed by the community someday. Being open also is great news for the device's longevity.
@@ToyKeeper You know... it is not as hard to learn as many says. I have also MC-101 and I would say the learning curve is quite similar.
Speaking of the Core software of the force: bad sounding warp algorithm and almost no settings to control it. There are no warp markers. If you load a drumbreak with a groove, it will most of the time be 100% quantized. There are also no tempo automations/changes that you can trigger by scenes. Tempo needs to be manually adjusted on this hardware for "live performance"
Pads are not good for finger drumming either. The dynamic range is so small that you almost always hit full velocity. No dynamic drumming possible. Same with the keygroups you've mentioned. Hard to get an expressive performance out of them.
One thing about the force that I found quite amazing is that the screen, the knobs and the pads can be independent. You can even split the pads into drum pgm, matrix or step seq. I think the idea of the force was very good but as always with Akai the features are there without the depth a pro/power user would appreciate. 🤷♂️😆
This thing is on for almost 4 years now which in electronics terms is already old and yet it's still going strong with software updates. That said it's weird that almost all MPCs have gotten at least 1 HW upgrade now (and if it's just for cosmetics) to further milk the cow. That didn't happen to the Force yet. Also the latest 3.3 update didn't get all new devices/features that the MPCs got with 2.12.2. And I wonder why that is? I more and more get the feeling that the Force was a one-time only trial for Akai to see whether they got it in them to build an Ableton Live standalone of some sorts. Hope to see a "Force II" at some point. But knowing how early inMusic registers there new devices with the FCC and not seeing anything in the FCC database looking like a "Force II" it will be at least another 6 month to 1 year or maybe even never. In that time Ableton might have made the Push 3 standalone into something actually powerful (it does not look like it at the moment. Not even with the new v12 but you never know.).
After the One+, I'm pretty much done with buying anything new from Akai. But I'm still getting that Force lol.
Whats the reason you did release some Force Videos? Just felt like that or something different?
I had a few bigger song projects I wanted to make, and the Force seemed like the obvious choice for them. I figured that while I was working on them, I would take the opportunity to do a deep dive on the Force. The Push 3 being announced was honestly a happy coincidence, since I could take that into account with the videos I was already working on.
I am eyeballing the Force coming from a Circuit Rhythm and OG Circuit. I am somewhere between a beginner and intermediate music enthousiast, and currently only do some jamming at home.
I want to progress though and expand my skills and creativity in order to play dawless liveset performances in the future.
I was initially looking to get a Digitakt/Syntakt or even an Mpc for my new setup, but the desire for a standalone device (focussed more on live performing than the Mpc) is great when I stumbled upon the Force.
I have no intention to finish individual polished songs, just to prepare and performlivesets to perform with long progressions and varriations.
That being said, I have no DAW experience whatsoever and am not too familiar with the clips concepts etc.
Not intending to ever use a Daw either.
Would you recommend the Force coming from this background?
*Edit*: How is the Cpu when handeling long projects?
Good analysis. Your cynical take on Akai/inMusic is pretty spot on. Just wish that Push 3 was cheaper. 😂
The rate at which they update the Force is still very troubling and there are so many issues that have been there since day 1 that have a lot of the original user base leaving daily. It is a shame because if done well, I would have it over even Push 3 but just can't with it at this point 😑
Fair. They've been really good about adding features, but Akai isn't very prompt with bug fixes
In the moment i would buy more the force, then the push 3. On the push 3 i like the wavetable and MPE. But high price, no arrange view, no follow actions (clips), no touchscreen, no sd-card, no racks, no macros, only 2 outs (without ADAT), no automation-lanes view, no autosampler, no autotune, no vocal-harmonizer !🤔
Well consider me niche because The FORCE is the best Akai Product currently available. If they ever improved it the only thing that could be competitive is a currently none existing version of the Push 3. They could add more Ram better CPU and real mastering effects (multi-band compressor cough cough) , improved touch control of automation. Probably some more stuff that I currently don’t use. As it stands, I will never use another device for constructing beats. I roll with the FORCE.
Thanks Gabe, I'm really hoping for a Force 2 with 4gb ram.
I'm definitely not holding my breath, but that would be dope.
And a cpu update so we can get a complex reverb and tape/amp sims!
I seriously considered the Akai Force but ended up going with the MC-707 over it mostly due to the much better synth engine out the box(IMO). While the newer plugins make it even better that's extra cost on top of the price of picking one up, where as the Zen Core synth engine on the MC-707 I'm yet to really feel the synth side of it is lacking. I think both devices are competitive feature wise in a lot of ways it's just down to which trade offs are you going to deal with. The Force is some times still tempting for it's much more DAW like features, but I'm not sure if I could give up the sheer synth firepower the MC-707 has by default.
EDIT: One thing in favor of the MC-707 for me I forgot to mention is it's really well set up to be set up to act as an external effects processor which give the sheer number of studio ready effects on the MC-707 can be useful for some people as there's a good few of Roland's older effects supported especially some of their rackmount digital stuff.
It's better to have both like me 😎
Are there any standalone "clip" & "scene" launchers out there? All these new devices have so many gadgets, it's only ramping up the prices in my eyes.
My experience with Akai hardware , is that the interfaces and UI are clunky .
Many sections seem weirdly separated from the other parameters .almost like there were designed by completely separate departments in AkAI.
Can I use SSL plug ins with Force?
Any plans to review the Push 3 standalone?
Maybe eventually!
Bought it 2-3 years ago. Got frustrated tryna learn how to use it and went back to Fl Studio
Can anyone explain the big differences I’ve seen in “New” prices (like $1,200) versus “Used” prices (like $750) for the Akai Force ? Did Akai update the hardware or is there any difference between a new 2023 Force and (say) a 2022 Force ?
I'm not sure why there's that big of a gap, tbh. As far as I know, there's no hardware difference from year to year.
which is more useful force or mc707?
If you're pulling out stems to mix in a DAW anyway, why does having an arrangement view on the device matter?
It matters less for sure, I just like doing as much as possible standalone. It's a luxury, and a niche one at that.
@@GabeMillerMusicIt's preference (workflow is personal after all), which honestly is 99% of the choice between which of these overpriced solutions you want to go for.
I find the lack of arrangement view criticism that the standalone Push 3 is copping to be odd when most of its luminaries either have the same flaw (MPC) or themselves have a bunch of dumb caveats attached to them as well (Force's track / instrument limitation) and are probably going to lead to you finishing a song in a DAW anyway.
End of the day, if you've committed to standalone, the answer of Push 3 vs X comes down to whether you think the increased compute power, MPE and having access to Ableton instead of whatever the competitors are offering is worth the price you're going to pay for it. Every one of these solutions has a bunch of problems you're probably going to solve with a computer down the track anyway, choose the poison that kills you the least I guess.
I convert all my clips into audio and use them in drum tracks. 128 drum tracks with 128 samples is a lot
Let me ask you this simple question. Would you rather have akai keep updating the current platform with new plugins features etc or would you rather have a force MK II/MPC line MK II and have your current force/mpc become the value of a doorstop? I would only rather have the latter if there ever became a limitation of the current offering where they would simply need new hardware to keep expanding its offering. So far that doesnt seem to be a limitation in my eyes unless they actually need new hardware to fix warp. Warp is terrible. LOL Also the force userbase has grown a lot since its release. Its starting to gain traction as a sleeper device imo. I was day 1 adopter over my MPC X. Even on release I felt it slam dunked the MPCs and I never looked back when I sold my X. Force is honestly the best piece of hardware i've ever owned since my start in 1997 and i've owned TONS of hardware over those years.
That's definitely fair, where my frustration comes in is with lack of bug fixes (or updates that break new things), despite new software being regularly released, and to a degree, plugins that are more resource-hungry than the hardware is prepared for. Ultimately, Akai is playing their own game, and I can respect that, especially if it keeps an older device up to date in a way that's sustainable for everyone.
Also, for warp, I've had better results with the non-real time warping that bakes itself into the audio clip. That seems to sound better and be more consistent.
Great review although I disagree with your enthusiasm for the arranger. I would much prefer to create my songs in matrix view by being able to chain scene together.
Right but what’s the alternative? The mpc with the worst song building workflow ever ? The maschine plus which has been totally abandoned ? I mean what else is there that does what this does other than the push 3 for 2200 bucks and is pure ableton.
You're not being cynical, that is *exactly* what they've been doing. Here's hoping the new competition lights a fire under their collective butts and we get a better product for it.
every time this thing updates i struggle to find the release notes its like akai just wants you to guess?
Hey Gabe - interesting take on Akai. What you said regarding them "milking their customers" is interesting to me... Mainly because you seem to think (based on that statement) that that is not exactly what EVERY COMPANY wants to do. I have been at this A LOT longer than many of the CZcamsrs I speak to in chats - and maybe older than many of the folks who access my CZcams, so I have seen some things hehehe.... BELIEVE ME - every single company out there wants to be where Akai is. Spending less time making products that people just eat up... Think about it - Nintendo releases 16 colors of the gameboy, or controllers for the switch... No one seems to care that that model is as prolific as it is with items like that - but bring it to the MPC and people get upset over it... I mean I literally looked at countertop mixers (for baking not the sutdio) that came in several colors - same product, but higher and lower prices base on color... In the end - Akai built a very capable and very upgradable / updatable product line. Realistically they could create a totally new OS written in assembly language or C that could totally make these devices look and act totally different. Ableton, Roland, Yamaha and all the others would LOVE to have a device that they did not need to constantly replace to get people to spend money on it - I mean Roland had their "plug-out" system now they have a subscription for access to virtual classic synths... Everyone wants to have that one device that you buy once - and they never have to "redesign it fully" and you keep investing in it... So don't think for one second that Ableton, Native and all the rest would not do what AKAI is doing if they could. AKAI just happened to be the company that built the original Niche enough machine that got there first...Everyone else wants to make money too - so AKAI is not the only one trying to milk their customers. If you don't feel like a particular company has tried to "milk you" then they just haven't found that "Lightening in a bottle" product yet... But when they do.... GOT MILK?? hahaha (I had to)
That's an interesting perspective, I can't disagree. They've hit on a formula that works for them, and yes every company wants to make money, it's an inherently adversarial relationship to a degree. The thing that makes me feel like it's a worse customer experience is that while the foundational product is good, some of it is still a bit broken/buggy/unstable, and in my opinion, some of the paid add-ons aren't worth it. I mentioned it in a different video, and probably should have mentioned it here, but being an Akai customer sometimes feels like building your music setup on a foundation of sand.
@@GabeMillerMusic I hear you man - I’ve actually offered to come work for them (developer full time part time music producer /CZcamsr) but they didn’t seem interested in my thoughts lol. I think that’s part of the problem ha ha. I’ve actually thought of hacking the system and installing my own software on it but that’s already being done by somebody else is another group that does that I can’t think of the name right now. And I feel like hacking their software and making changes is just laying mud on the cracks of a foundation. Yeah, it might look good for a minute… But I feel like the whole thing needs to be redone. And I do feel like I could rock their hardware with the right team and turn it into something amazing still keeping true to the MPC origins. You are a developer too aren’t you?
Anyone has figured loop warping ?? For some reason their warping algorytm is nowhere near as tight as ableton's. When playing live sets, feels like the loops i play drift a bit, they all have been exported at the exact same bpm. Something in the way their algo to warp loops is weird and i dont get why... i prepare my live in ableton and then dump it in the force. Sync is super tight in abletom, but nowhere near as good in force, barely usable sometimes...
Is the sky blue?
Make that 21 :D:D:D
Ok, _NOW_ we know why Ableton rushed the Push 3 out ahead of it being finished: 00:00 😮
You said it. The plug-ins are FINE. That’s it. Op4 is pretty dope but I’m not paying $150😂
Still worth it imho, and. The push isn’t even a contender once you factor in the cost of also buying the kit to make push standalone, a copy of ableton, and something to run ableton on.
maybe push 3 will be more stable in the future..the maschine plus went through the same heartache ..wondering if it was it as bad as the force or mpc one and live 2?now the mpc and maschine plus seem more solid..before all these daw hardware be crashin
in this post dawless age
Yeah the launches of these usually seem to be pretty rough. I always advise people to wait until the platforms have proven themselves to be at least stable *enough*.
I had one and would have kept it if it had time signature changing and drum explode for export. The used price is nice haha. I ended up with a Push 2 after but I think the Force is a good option for the price they're going for used. BIGGEST CONCERN, though, is that they will completely stop supporting it so you'd have to really take what you said into consideration about GETTING WHAT YOU'RE GETTING, not what MIGHT be upgraded later.
I think people should really consider and highlight that people who make music sample/chop style require a HUGELY different UI and layout than someone who plays their own instruments, whether it's plugin or external, because of how ideas develop when you're PLAYING the parts, vs. thinking in retrospect and manipulating what's already played like when you're a sample based arranger/producer. You CAN do performance style arranging with MPC, but you work against its natural steps. The tech world is barely catching up on this new phenomenon on proficient instrumentalists being interesting in electronic/beat based music.
Dude yes. I’ve had a Force since 2020 but I don’t use it much because of a lack of time signature and tempo shifts. I ended up going the MPC route because I need those things and have learned to love it since making the jump.
@@feelmytoolsame here. And bc the pads can't be used for finger drumming.
So as a proficient guitar and piano instrumentalist who does also like electronic music, which device would you recommend considering I’ve only had a novation launchkey
I don't necessarily agree with you that the paid plugins for the Minimoog and Juno are really great.
does it have a battery?????
Same specs as the original MPC One.
It was lackluster then, and has only gotten worse. You can pick up a MacBook Air and any DAW and uSB audio box and do better.
Honestly I think if you're going to pay that much money you might as well just buy a used deluge. With the community open source firmware, the amount of features that this machine can have is insane and any other groovebox just doesn't come close.
the vsts are amazing. in standalone? if you cant make professional music on the force by itself you cant period. it has what is needed. all of it. alone
Re: your point on the cynical side of your brain, I think you're being far too harsh. I've been a software engineer for about a decade, and software engineers are expensive. I've never ever worked on a piece of software that wasn't a yearly or monthly license. You'd have to be selling incredible volume to cover recurring staff cost on a one time payment. Software engineers with audio expertise are more expensive (rightly - because it's a niche skill that they can't easily take to say, an accounting software company). It's impossible that a grand paid to Akai 5 years ago for a product is anywhere near helping them pay that overhead, charging for new plugins is the bare minimum. And that's after many free updates. The interesting story with Akai is that they were a hardware company that's transitioned into a software company and the issues they've had with that transition.
The MPC 1 (Ren, Studio) and early MPC 2 days were rough to say the least for Akai, but unlike most they didn't just drop the product and move on. They've kept working at it until we have imo some of the best products in their category in the market, just in-terms of sheer capability. The Force when it first came out looked like it would get cancelled it was a disaster. Poor communication from Akai a full year of no updates and lack of features (like the sequencer). Then 3.1 comes out and it completely changed the device.
Definitely fair, I kinda go back and forth on how cynical I really should be. I definitely understand how tough it is to be sustainable in a niche market, and I'm all for keeping older devices up to date rather than engaging in planned obsolescence. I think it sometimes just feels like they gloss over device stability and community requested features, so while the pivot is probably necessary, it sometimes feels tone deaf in the way it's implemented.
and now for the question nobody asked.. force vs deluge?
I wish they do a Force w a speaker and a built in battery.
They need to release a mk2 with better control layout and specs
For me, the Force is what Circuit Tracks should have been
The Farce is only for people who count only in 2's (2/4, 4/4). A deal breaker for real musicians (who sometimes can even count up to 9 :)
Of course you can make music with the Force, back in the days I made music with nothing but a MPC 2000. However, nothing comes close to Push, the quality of the built in synths and FX is where it needs to be, maxforlive in a standalone machine and it’s only gonna get better with time, I love it. It’s great to live in times where we have so much options for making music with whatever gear.
Always buy for current functionality. If they promised something, don't get your hopes up. You never know what's going to be the next Duke Nukem Forever.