The Survivalist & Loner Auras Need Reworks (Warhammer 40k: Darktide)
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- čas přidán 29. 08. 2024
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As a veteran main, its a tricky situation. Personally, I think the issue with the aura is not that it gives ammo, but that it has a trigger, rather than being an innate buff. Nearly every other aura in the game is just a small stat boost that you permanently have. Scavenger is unique in that it only triggers when you kill a special or elite. This makes it exponentially more useful in later difficulties and especially on modifiers that spawn more special or elite enemies.
I actually think that another possible change to the aura could be that when one ally in coherency gains ammo (from a pickup, usually), all other allies in coherency gain a small portion of that ammo. So like allies gain 1/5th the ammo provided. So if a small ammo box provides 20% max ammo to the person that picked it up, then all other allies in coherency gain 4% of their max ammo. Or if big ammo packs grant 50% max ammo, it grants everyone else 10% max ammo. While this still would technically be an aura that has a 'trigger', all it does is slightly increase what you gain out of the naturally-spawning resources on the map, rather than creating potentially infinite new resources out of thin air by killing stuff.
However, if that doesn't work, I think another potential change that still follows along the "This aura is ammo-focused" is that all allies in coherency have a 10% chance to not consume ammo when they shoot, or that hitting a shot has a 10% chance to refund the ammo, or something along those lines. This way, in theory, your allies have increased max ammo, but once again, it is not infinite. And this would also be closer in line with all other auras, which are just static buffs that are innate and don't have a trigger.
Ah yes, my opinion has arrived.
I like the idea of making survivalist a base perk and adding a whole new aura. They also gotta buff Vets other two aura both are quite stinky
A reload or accuracy aura would be nice
A lot of people don't want any character giving free ammo to the team with the easy conditions of killing higher tier enemies which results in a shit ton of free ammo, messing with the ammo economy of the game. We'd prefer more ammo pickups and better management by teammates.
I cant believe the devs made "5% movement speed, or ammo refund on kill" and thought that was a tough choice to make lmao
@@armintor2826 5% move speed is actually really good its the dmg one thats ass movespeed is the best stat in the game
@@kheionai8380honestly a lot of people like the free ammo because ammo spam and grenade spam. Nothing makes an Ogryn player happy than seeing them spam Rumbler to kingdom come or Gunluggers.
I've always thought one of the auras should be stamina related: Maybe added 2 stamina, regen, or a regen delay buff? That would be a lot more useful than 5% damage
Your opinion is valid with the skill expression but fatshark in particular balances best they can towards fun and improvement rather than making the game high-end skill based, which is where the fun comes in because its how its designed.
Survivalist imo could actually get buffed to 3% ammo gain without a time cooldown in between them and it be more fun to shoot more and help others shoot more, as its great to share ammo and fatshark wouldnt balance every gun in the game to increase ammo just to balance out the removal of 1 arura, I promise you if the arura gets removed and made as a class specific passive then it would hit with immense backlash because it also being made into its own thing makes 1 veteran penanace in particular phenomally easier to get which is the no ammo 90% accuracy end of the game, shouldnt be changed.
Loner imo should be changed to something else as right now its just you getting toughness regen constantly and getting more when near teammates, what you have in mind isnt bad but wouldnt be the right call on that tree as its more based around momentum and speed. Imo Zealot and Veteran right side easily could switch with each other and would arguably be better, but what I want for zealot is a 10% speed boost and veteran getting loner instead would be more in line how the right side of the tree wants you to play on both ends.
Dont forget the style of the tree, dont look at an ability and think hmm team play, otherwise every class right side tree needs to be reworked.
I played with a point blank barrage ogryn using a ripper gun with no ammo vet and he constantly needed ammo all game. It was a disaster and he couldnt burn down the boss at the end of cosignment yard cuz he ran out of ammo.
The major problem with the Veteran's aura and why most people use Survivalist in the first place is the other two are too weak/niche. Fatshark need to buff them to 10% each then we can talk for a solution or replacement for Survivalist. Now with the 5 seconds cooldown it's really hard to be the ranged pewpew shooty guy of the team during some Aurics but especially during Maelstrom with some weapons because you need to kill 3 to 5 elites/specialists each to gain back just one bullet for example the revolvers which I use mostly against priority target.
Yeah, their nerfs and buffs are generally too hard, they need some fine tuning if they want to make all options fun to play with
I generally support removing Survivalist as an aura, but the other classes ALSO need some means of ammo regeneration. This isn't Vermintide where you can just build so that your ammo supplies last you until the next full refill - there ARE no (guaranteed) full refills so every shot you take depletes your team's total count.
These sound like the company complaining?
Too much ammo?
How the fuck is that a problem?
Other people having too much fun?
This mindset is borderline PvP toxic.
"You have to play how I want you too!"
same shit but worse in helldivers lmao
As someone who has played every difficulty and probably every imaginable build on veteran I can say for sure that survivalist does not replace the need for ammo pick ups or ammo management even on auric difficulty which constantly spawns specialist and elites however it’s the one that is always picked because it restores ammo for the entire group which means the veteran can afford to pick up more ammo and doesn’t need to share as much this doesn’t subvert ammo efficiency it just focuses the ammo gains on the veteran who’s entirely dependent on ammo for damage I would say that the real problem is there is no competitive alternative because the other 2 do basically nothing at all it is also worth noting survivalist does actually have a cooldown so if you have something like a hound wave you will probably only restore 3-4 percent ammo I hope this helps a bit because some people think it’s op and some people think it’s useless but it’s probably actually very near what it should be and I would argue that it enables more builds in late game than what it locks you into because the guns that are bad in late game are already ammo inefficient and to take away more would make them unplayable past difficulty 4 for example the shotgun suffers from poor dps compared to other options and uses multiple shots to take down each elite it has a comparable ammo capacity to the stub nose but needs to be fired at least twice as much so it’s as if that ammo were split in half
I definitely understand where your coming from JTC, but like you mentioned and I agree with, this game isn't Vermintide, its definitely more shooting based, there is even a supppresion system built in the game, ammo is plentyful through out the stages but survivalist is a nice little buff for the team.
If anything I really feel the other 2 coherencys need to be buffed or either changed since they are way to small of buffs to make a relevant change.
what i find the weirdest part of the ammo aura nerf is that... psyker staves exist, these are effectively infinite ammo horde clears, so given that perspective, i never found survivalist to be a problem, but now that the cat's out of the bag and we want ammo to be a resource, i think psyker needs to be brought up
It's not about infinite ammo, it's about how survivalist breaks the weapon's balance for all the other classes. Hence there is no point talking about psyker.
Imo psykers and their staffs are fine as is, because
A) Thats their entire identity as a class (magic like abilities that don't need ammo)
B) Their staffs are all horde clear; None of them offer the reliability and pinpoint accuracy that a gun does for extensive long ranged combat (you can argue that voidstrike kind of does, but it has a much slower TTK than a gun since all a gun requires is point and click and has no travel time requirement)
Their blitzes are also more limited than guns are - Smite is another CC tool, assail has travel time, a soft "ammo pool" that prevents spam and is less effective against isolated targets than targets clumped up together, and brain burst is a sniping tool but is woefully lacking compared to guns UNLESS you specifically build for it in the skill tree (which is arguably one of, if not the weakest way to build a psyker in the first place)
Having a single class not interact with the ammo economy is perfectly fine imo - The only time it would become an issue is if fatshark begins to add additional weapons for other classes/entire other classes that also don't interact with the ammo ecnonomy OR if they begin to add staves that do the job of guns but better, but we won't have to worry about that for a long while so there isn't a need to have that discussion right now.
@@jtcLIVEcool reply, thanks for sharing ideas
@@jtcLIVE the trauma staff though, that thing is silly. you can demolish hordes, specials and elites. I use the rending and charge time reduction blessings and can deal with 10 crushers by myself, without having to worry about ammo.
@@jtcLIVE DD Assails and EP brain rupture are two of the strongest blitz in the game that are only completely outclassed by vet's infinite ammo grenade spam. DD assails with True Aim means you get a guaranteed oneshot on gunners with secondary fire and that's easy to loop back to back with 12 of them. Get a blue stim on EP BR and you'll machine gun an entire crusher patrol by the time it wears off, and if you bring a staff like trauma with soulblaze on it you can kill every other patrol just with perilous combustion on the first few elites. Combine all of these with the bubble shield and you can essentially not engage with any mechanics other than peril, which is extremely easy to quell and has no downsides beyond time management.
Like, psyker may not have the precision and damage of a gun with these builds, but if you can wildly throw shards that wipe out a group of shooters in a couple clicks, pop a shield that turns off their ability to fight back, throw down trauma to instantly stunlock anything in melee and apply dot stacks, then kill just 2 big targets to wipe the floor of any non-carapace chaff with more dot stacks, you've created a class that does not need resources beyond time management to solo anything except maybe bosses, but that's where a dedicated melee or the other 3 teammates come in.
Though i can see your point of view, there's one factor that puts a spanner in the works. Most of Darktide's player base is solo player's matchmaking in mission's. So the point i would like to make is that in said mission's, there is always one and a lot of the time two greedy ammo players that either grab all the ammo when near full magazine or spam happy shooter's that are always low or running out of ammo. The survivalist aura at least gives some other players on the team to have a chance to keep shooting when neeeded, especially on lower levels where there are less elites to spawn ammo. And before the try hards jump on the band wagon shouting git gud, which is a twat statement in its self, not everybody wants to play on hard levels getting smashed as there certain thresholds that people reach in life and no matter how much they play, they will never get to the hardest levels of gameplay. Most play on a level that suits them and there skill level, say Heresy, and still have fun, this is a game to enjoyed by all. So for yourself and other skilled players the answer would be speck into something else, crap or not, to challenge yourselves, it's an Aura after all, you don't have to pick it. And let's be honest, who hasn't benefited from it when needed or come in clutch at crucial moment.
I feel that Loner is fine. If a zealot uses it and can survive on their own, great. They're pulling some attention away from the rest of the group, breaking up the horde a bit. If a zealot uses it and can't survive because they're new or unskilled, than chances are they would die from something else anyway. I know new or unskilled players might take it as a license to break away from the group bigtime, but I don't personally think it's a very common issue.
I don't have much of an opinion on survivalist, so I agree it should be base kit.
Every loner zealot I see runs off on their own and dies in the first 5 minuets of the mission then leaves.
I think the idea of buffing a Loner zealot to perform certain niche functions in the map is a good idea on paper. After all, I think it also removes you from being solo'd by disabler specials; like, you don't appear on the list for it to even trigger. So things like solving puzzles, opening doors to secure escape routes or cut off enemies, scouting ahead for mobs of elites and specials seems fine, but the execution of natural players in games really doesn't allow for it, outside of being in a premade.
As for Vet, I got no idea. They're basically the odd class out to me; gold health from their shout, but Zealot can do the same thing AND suppress enemies, and even buff you on top of that. Extra movement speed? I don't see the use at all; you hunker down and trim hordes, never really outrun them. Naturally getting ammo back is like...the one unique thing about them.
Movement speed is also bit tricky, as the vet players that go heavily on theright side of skilltree have simular habit to loner zealots of going ahead and leaving coherency.
loner isn't a problematic aura because it parts from the cohesion concept, it's problematic because it's just very bad. it counts as having 1 person in coherency, which is not much at all. the fact that it exists encourages newer players in the belief that it allows them to be some kind of "lone wolf bad-ass" when in reality it just encourages them to overextend themselves and then die alone.
I agree with the Loner aura, you haven't experienced pain until you've been slogging through an auric maelstrom as psyker/ogryn with three zoomy invis zealots, it's, like trying to herd cats. Then they all get disabled in separate rooms/ areas either by nets or dogs, then leave in a huff. Leaving it to myself and the bots to try our luck XD.
Most zealots I play with (and randoms I play with) are good enough to just play on their own.
But tbh I think Zealot is just that character that's playing his own game, maybe the people I've seen and played with are to good but they can run anything and still beat any stage.
I do think that moving survivalist to a passive for veteran is a very good idea and I always miss it from before the classes reworks into skill trees. Survivalist is just hands down the best and it has annoyed me when other people don't use it. I've never complained when people aren't running it to people in lobbies; run what you want you could just as easily be any other class I have no control over other players pick what you want to bring. However, it does feel much better playing with a veteran with survivalist vs without even when ironically, I'm a Psyker not using ammo. Just having the team I'm playing with be more efficient is nice.
I do not agree with removing it from effecting teammates at all. Veteran is the one that should be most prepared for these situations and having abilities that reflect their resourcefulness is not only great game-play wise, but necessary for the character. Veteran should have the ability to give teammates ammo even grenades (still sad about them taking the TEAM out of demolition TEAM). Infinite Ogryn nukes is kinda busted (especially since it was a percentage chance so RNG could make or break), so I can see why they removed it. Taking away supporting abilities from classes just sucks in games in general especially pve games and we will always miss the old ways as a community.
For loner I'm not sure if I understood them correctly are they just saying to keep it the exact same as it is right now but then give it a maximum time of 12s? because that's how it came across and that is a straight nerf. I think this would be pretty unusable if it works this way. They say "While this effect last the player would still have the aura perk effect of the last reject they broke coherency with." This makes it seem like you would only be able to keep two coherency? If this is the case I would personally think it would be much better if all coherency effects and auras lingered for 12 seconds allowing you to if done right be far away from your team with still 4 coherency before having to inevitably return. This might be what they were saying it was just a little unclear.
if loner was any good i'd agree, anyone running it who isn't good enough to survive without it is still going to die solo, it's a trash amount of regen, the only reason to take it is point efficiency. To get further down the tree using less passives. And if you're good enough to run a build like that you are most likely good enough to work with your team, and understand enough about the game to not go running off just cause you feel like you can.
Thanks for your input, 40k femboy!
It is canon now 🙏🏻
If they want to make survivalist an ammo talent the ammo given needs to scale with the allies in coherency.
I feel like the ammo return is more to keep teammates topped off since they aren't shooting as much as vet (ideally they aren't anyway) so maybe you could keep it at 1% at vet and the increased mount would go to allies in coherency.
The damage buff and the move speed buff are kinda boring and need to be changed to something more impactful but I don't really know enough to say confidently on what they should be changed to.
A lot of people are worried about the ammo economy or whatever but if you have compelling options other than ammo generation then the problem takes care of itself.
Additionally if we look at Ranger in VT2 you can literally never worry about ammo. You can even have a gun spam bounty hunter and run throwing axes so you can just give all your ammo to bounty hunter while still able to kill specials and elites.
Also the healing mist on Ranger was wildly strong. Death and ammo management were very optional even on cataclysm. Arguably it was easier to stay healthy and topped off on Cata because of the volume of enemies to get temp health from and specials to kill for ammo bags.
And if you're running ales you pretty much always have 1-2 people with 12% damage reduction and 12% bonus attack speed.
All this is to say difficulty is optional in both games. If you're playing with people who know what they're doing you're going to have an easy time. Like playing Auric missions is vastly easier than playing regular Damnation because the people you meet in Auric missions are generally just way better at the game than the average player.
10% Reload Speed, 10% Elite/Specialist Damage, and 5% Reduced Ability Cool Down. Node for Elite/Specialist Damage increased but changed to weakspot damage against those enemies.
I think you're pretty spot on with Vet. I'd even be fine if we got the full 1% on scavenger, but it only counted for weakspot kills on elites. I do understand this would be much more difficult with a controller, so heres my next suggestion: make scavenger a .5-.75% ammo regen skill, and only have it apply on the player and not teammates. I think we could still have solid ranged vet builds and keep the ammo economy healthy, because, lets face it, theres even more ammo gremlins stealing every single ammo pickup this patch.
I like your survivalist passive idea.
Here’s another thought, When you pick up resources you also get ammo, team wide like field improv, doubled if coherent
Small resource is +5% ammo
Latge resource is +10%
Another idea, killing ‘shooters’ restores vet ammo… ya know like COD scavenger. Killing ranged enemies spawns pickups of ammo drip
I love your idea of a reload aura (IF ammo regen is base)
Additionally they can add some of the alt ideas as other tree nodes. I’ve always been dissapointed that shock treoper only effects las weapons, would be happy for a counter part where headshots on ‘stub’ / ‘gun’ weapons take no ammo on weakspot hit/kill somethin!
Also the middle and right side of the trees has several things I think should be on the left side like Tac reload and onslaught and covering fire
Ramble aside, nice vid :)
You know I like these proposed changes. I've said this of Survivalist Aura on the discord. I feel like no matter how bad they nerfed it, Survivalist will always pull out way ahead of the other auras in value because the other auras are frankly trash, but they're trash thats in line with every other class's auras. Buffing the other auras to level them out with Survivalist would be the wrong call. Giving the Veteran three busted auras instead is not a great solution. So, make Survivalist a base passive of the Veteran, water it down a little, and replace it with something as basic as the rest of them.
I don't agree with ammo management being a thing across all tide games. I agree with Vermintide, but you can't in reasonably good faith say ammo management matters in damnation when the game director shits out 10 guns, 10 shotgunners, 2 mutants, and other specials. In vermintide 2, you had much less targets, therefore ammo management made sense. You had to know when to choose your targets. In Darktide, there is always a target to shoot. Always a target you need to take down. There never stops being one, unless you're playing on a lower difficulty. While Vermintide 2 definitely always had a special nearby, it takes both more ammo and there are a greater amount in Darktide.
Granted, your change isn't a bad one. I've played a decent amount of both, and going back to Vermintide 2 on a difficulty similar to Damnation always surprises me with the differences between the two games. Being able to one shot specials is amazing. Or at the very least, my ranged weapons kill them quickly (unless chaos warrior etc.) Tbh I feel like Veteran has issues in general with their tree. All of their keystones at the end of the tree are forgettable. You can make a good build without them. Other classes want their keystones. Since they've been the most balanced class since launch, I suppose it's inevitable that they would feel meh.
Tbh Veteran probably needs a rework on not only their auras, but keystones as well. I don't think there's too much problem with the stat nodes, but it feels strange to have a class so good you want the stat nodes over the keystones.
Loner could have been changed to be the opposite of what it does and instead gives an additional point to the overall squad coherency and raise it to a max of 5. The new survivalists just essentially made it useless and they could have done better by just nerfing it to 2.5 seconds instead of a whole 5 seconds.
Loner is bad and should be reworked, but I think the solution doesn't need to be so complicated. "Your allies' auras have a 50% larger radius. This is always active." Like other auras, it does not stack with copies of itself. This gives Zealots a larger leash without encouraging them to drastically split the action to a degree that is harmful to the team 90% of the time.
A weaker version of Survivalist should be baseline for all classes at all times, similar to how all classes regenerate some toughness when they secure a melee kill. This baseline functionality should not be linked to Veterans, but it should still be shared among everyone in Coherency to encourage team grouping.
I always love your input and ideas and are well informed. I'm ok with the survivalist aura changes, but I think your suggestion with Loner isn't going to fix things that much? Loner is subpar as it is, the fact that idiots run ahead and do everything or die alone is... not unique to zealots.
You had that elf trope in Vermintide 2 even though you saw this plenty with, uh, zealot Saltzpyre, GK, BW, slayer, etc, etc, run ahead. I don't mind the Loner aura, it just feels kinda meh as it is and your change makes it even more meh, just requires the zealot to stay with the team a little more (though I bet people won't, people don't already).
I agree with pretty much everything you said. Pretty good reading of what the actual underlying problems are with those auras and with how the in game systems interact with each other. I actually paused the video when you stated the problem with the loner aura, thought about it, and independently came up with exactly the same solution to that aura that you did, though initially with a 20 second delay on losing auras when leaving coherency, but 12 seconds sounds reasonable too.
Personally, I think that a reload aura might be a decent idea as a replacement for the survivalist aura if they just rolled survivalist into a solo buff for vet like you said. Maybe it could also have a 2 part effect, where it acts like the tactical reload talent. Something like 5% or 10% reload speed while in aura range, doubled if you have at least 1 bullet left in the magazine. It'd provide a little bit more skill expression to the class (and the team as a whole when having a vet with that aura), and would be good to stack with other sources of reload speed on the vet for their slower reloading weapons. I'd certainly take it when using shotguns or a bolter on vet.
That said, vet also needs something else, or some kind of big changes to their other 2 auras because they're both pretty trash IMO. Their numbers aren't big enough to really make a difference, and if they were, they might be OP given that they buff core stats of every character on the team.
Thank you. I've made a post about this on the Darktide forums and basically just got GTFO'd by meta abusers who can't live without their rat-sonic knife builds and their perfect-in-every-way Columnus Infantry Auto Guns. And yes, I (like 50 percent of the playerbase) main Veteran, and my brother mains Zealot, so I feel like I have some slight authority on the matter.
I feel like this discourse comes down to how the game playerbase is divided by casual/fun-based players and hardcore/skill-based players. Personally I’m not a fan of the scav nerf and think it’s better to just buff or rework the other auras.
I guess there's no world where Survivalist just makes ammo pickups shared, huh?
That would be the most elegant fix.
when you or someone in coherency picks up ammo, nearby allies get 1% ammo. Or, maybe when you reload, allies in coherency get bullets reloaded into their mag, like Charmed Reload.
The problem with a change like that is it doesn't fix the core issue of survivalist being the best aura Veteran has. It'd certainly reign in its strength, but veterans would still be "required" to take the survivalist aura since it would still be best in slot. The best solution IMO is to stop survivalist from being the best and allow veterans the freedom of build choice rather than shoehorning them into forever running a single aura.
@@jtcLIVESurvivalist should just be turned into a perk that only the veteran benefits from so they can perform their role as a shooter while everyone else still partakes in the ammo economy and so the game's combat won't be trivialized.
I have another perspective.
Good powerful aura ---> Leads to Players sticking Together ---> This is good for coop.
No aura in the game makes people stick together like Survivalist does.
The ammo balance problem is of less importance. The healthy and powerful incentive far outweighs the bad.
What's the point of an aura when no one cares about them? Sadly, that's most auras in the game. I'd rather see other auras improved to the point where the average player actually notice them. Increase the difficulty of the game accordingly if need be, just give me impactful auras like Survivalist!
If you are running Survivalist and I play zealot / ogryn; congrats you have a personal body guard because I want to to stay close. I can feel your aura. I wish I cared about any other aura in this game but I don't. They're trash.
I understand Survivalist is tricky to balance, but it's also the ONLY aura that consistently *feels good* for the people around it, which makes us stick together. This is a huge win. I fear that obsessing over ammo balance can blind us. We focus on the smaller bad and forget the big good.
*TL;DR: Let Survivalist be. Make the other auras feel good. Today I don't even notice them*
Generally good takes except when it comes to plasma gun. It’s in no way reliant on survivalist as long as you’re using the weapon with skill, which just means picking your targets and not trying to shoot everything that moves with it.
I play always with randoms. That means 3 leeches that die all the time so in the end i am always a loner. 80% of my games are like that. But often i have high lvl player that lack basic melee abd dodge defends fundamentals.
I accept all the points regarding survivalist. However, I believe Loner is incredibly weak. I treat it as a tax I take to have lots of good talents it's next to. As a zealot, the times where I've benefitted from toughness regen during downtime is minimal, except for a handful of times during clutches. 90% of my gameplay as zealot, Loner is doing literally noithing for me. I stealth behind people and carve my way back. The proposed changes would still make this an almost dead aura. At least, for me.
I cannot remember last time I used Loner, but that aura is hardly on the level of Survivalist. There is plenty still messed up with the talent trees, but Survivalist basically breaks the ammo economy and should not have been in the game in the first place.
The game needs a better ammo economy it seems, having a cool gun is nice but it's pointless if you can't shoot it, even more when you're a vet and that's 70% of your character hence this aura, also scarcity breeds toxicity on a funded level, seeing an ape empty his mags onto pox walker then grab every bag of ammo is infuriating.
Loner is only picked to save points for other skills.
The amount of toughness regen is very minor. I would always pick either of the other two if I could for specific builds.
You're spot on with you problem analysis and suggested reworks.
veteran main here. I strongly disagree on survivalist suggestion. This ability should not exist. Period. At all. It's a bad design in a game, where concept of higher difficulty is literally just "throw more stuff at them".
My most favourite build is braced autogun. And that thing eats ammo like nothing else. And i only shoot, having like 7-8 melee kills per game. I shoot specialists, elites, horde, ranged, bosses. Survivalist aura keeps me topped whole game with occasional box here and there. That's should not be it.
The change i suggest is the talent "Sharing is caring". Veteran is the most ranged oriented class in the game. So he needs the ammo. But your dumb teammates always steal big ammo pack while having yellow ammo. As well as you taking all ammo packs, leaving none to ogryns and zealots (noone cares about psykers).
So any ammo pack you or your teammates take - gives ammunition to the rest of teammates in coherency. It can be 25-50% of ammo picked up. Like if you picked up from ammo box, replenishing 100% of your ammo - your teammates in coherency will get 25-50% free ammo from that crate.
This forces you to scavenge and pick up ammo boxes, instead just killing specialists. This forces you to stay in coherency to recieve more ammo. This lets EVERYONE have ammo regardless if someone selfish picked box. This still leaves you with no ammo with bad RNG ammo spawns forcing to go melee. This makes you consider picking up +50% coherency radius talent.
Note, that this is a talent. Not an aura. It works like talent "Born leader" that replenishes your allies in coherency 15% of toughness you replenish.
Instead of survivalist aura there must be something, that fits headhunter veteran tree. More weakspot dmg. Or more dmg to specialist. Or literally any other stuff that make sense for sniper veteran tree
i agree with your observations and solutions
I hate playing with zealots the most cause of how many go off and do their own thing. I didn't realize the game is rewarding them for doing that until I started playing the zealot (to complete all the penances) and was gobsmacked by seeing the loner skill. I now understood the developers were giving players impetus to actually be selfish. I 100% agree that it should be changed or just deleted from the game.
I play damnation and ammo isn't an issue for me even on gun psyker. people are shooting at things they don't need to.
I think an interesting tweak for the loner would be retaining coherence bonuses for x seconds after leaving the radius. It still serves its purpose while encouraging them to not just run off.
God ide love to play with most of on dodge skills but hate the loner aura too much to desire it
the claim that you can completely ignore ammo management with survivalist aura is hyperbolic and false
its hypobolic and the truth. Especially before recent patch, where in auric you could easily pile up more than double your ammo from elite and special kills. Now there's just a 5 second gap between restoration that still adds up to being about an ammo crate for the whole team every 9 minutes.
@@apple-tarts5026 bro it helps but some guns can actually not get a full bullet when it procs,its the best the vet has by far but id be hard pressed to say its busted
How about removing the 5 seconds when in coherency, and having it in place when out of coherency 🤔
Just change the vet ammo perk from elites give ammo, to ammo pickups give a percent bonus that goes to everyone in coherency. This increases a part of the game instead of bypassing it.
To be honest I am really happy with scavenger, it makes for some fun gameplay if you're using the grenade launcher on Ogryn with a vet in the team,
On the other hand loner is fun to use but when you start seeing a invisible zealot on your team, you know you're in for a rough time since they going to be constantly far from the group and giving you aggro of more enemies constantly (then they clutch solo thinking they the big chief always) its really anit-team synergy
Just let zealot get up 5 coherency, that’d be a good buff without remaking an aura
I think Loner could be replaced with a aura that would make sense for a Zealot to have.
Preachers Infectious Bloodlust (Aura): You and allies in coherency gain +1.25% attack speed for every person in coherency. Additionally a coherency of 4 will grant every melee attack a 15% chance to inflict 2 stacks of bleeding, with heavy attacks having double the chance.
So at the max of 4 coherency everyone gets 5% attack speed and a chance to inflict bleed. This would do the opposite of Loner by keeping everyone together for decent buff.
Also Overall I think many of the auras could do with a buff, lots of them do very little and are basically unnoticeable in normal gameplay. Like it's very unlikely the +7.5% damage against elites from one of Psykers auras is going to do anything, if it was +15% against elites instead it would actually matter and affect gameplay a notable amount. But yeah, I really hope they buff up the auras and make them matter more, like they don't have to turn into "You must use this aura or bad" but it would be nice if Aura choices actually matter at all, because most of the time they feel like they do basically nothing because they're so weak.
My suggestion for a loner rework would be to make you only regenerate up to something like 50% toughness when out of coherency or have it be active for a certain amount of time until you need to come back to your teammates again to refresh the timer.
Really good video. I had the same opinion around weapon balance too, about how using ammo count to balance stronger ranged weapons definitely needs to be a thing.
Can't add much to the survivalist suggestion as it's essentially 1:1 mine :)
Loner should apply the lingering effects to all players, not just you. That makes sense to me but if not to someone else, change the name to "The emperor be with you" or something thematic.
Another interesting thing loner could do; give it it's current effect only if all other teammates are dead. That way it could double as the "clutcher" aura.
As I said the last time; there is a discussion to be had about changing an ammo regen aura to work but it's easier to remove it, make it a vet passive and give vets a gun handling aura which helps with reloading, aiming, weapon swapping etc.
Alongside these changes, the other two vet auras need some decently sized buffs. 5% damage is just laughably low and 5% movement WHILE NEXT TO THE RIGHT TEAMMATE, is just dumb. That could be 30% more movement and still be dumb, even if that would break the ability and make it OP.
Excellent vid as always
The design intent behind Loner seems to be to help empower Shroudfield Zealots to operate from flanking positions far away from the team (eg backstabbing Gunners). It seems less likely that FS intended for Zealots to be able to run anywhere they want, at all times.
One idea is to make Loner a timed buff that triggers for the entire squad when the Zealot leaves coherency. I would suggest +15% backstab damage (or thereabouts) for 10 seconds (or thereabouts). After all, the Zealot is probably about to backstab something, and after that the group of enemies between the Zealot and the squad end up in a pincer attack, with some of them turning their backs on the squad to deal with the Zealot. At which point bonus backstab damage benefits the Zealot's teammates as well.
This would address the most recurring complaint about Loner, which is that it doesn't help the team, while also promoting the flanking ambushes Shroudfield enables. It also doesn't contribute to the survivability of Zealots who run off solo.
Survivalist should be a melee only aura.
The survivalist change would also make it feel less bad when veteran non-bot runs out of aura range after you charge past him to melee shit for him and thus deny you ammo. There's a couple of nodes near Loner that I'd want to play with again, so having a non-shit Loner node would be nice. The funny thing about Zealot is that Zealot doesn't need Loner to regen toughness anyway since they have the 3+ enemy in proximity regen and being a generally better horde whacker than the other guys. And that's before you factor in random other stuff like momentum toughness regen node and the other leg on the crit chance one that nobody ever takes. Hell, the more I think about it, the more I feel punished for wanting to make a gun-backstabbing meme build on zealot.
Haven't watch the full video yet, but I just wanted to say while I agree loner sucks, Survivalist is handy even if it is "meta" in the worst sense. I only run it while leveling with friends so they can experiment more or when I'm special sniping to offset my ammo consumption
Too complex for my taste.
Loner you always have 2 coherence
Loner rework all your team always have 2 coherence.
Survivalist 1%ammo for elite/specialist 5 sec cooldown.
Survivalist rework 1% ammo each 10 seconds.
as a ripper gunlugger enjoyer, i just need more ammo for me ripper. you should still need to manage ammo, and it never should have been dependent on a survivalist vet anyway, but i'm finding it's incredibly hard to reach the potential of the build right now with ripper
Loner is a noob trap. Anyone can test this by going into the meatgrinder and blowing themselves up with a pox burster with and without the aura. Its like 2.5 toughness regen per second, garbage. It is very funny that everyone's favorite guy from auric quickplay is convinced that this is what's going to let him go lone wolf.
I would fix survivalist by having a timer but make it diminishing returns for team mates, and not a global timer. Its insane that another vet can turn off your aura. Or increase the percent you get back but make it a chance to do so like demo team. You should get rewarded for doing the thing you are supposed to do if you are going to have a reward aura
The most absurd zealot thing is the book. I'm gonna turn off the enemy ai for 7 seconds, give everyone gold toughness and stagger everything. The veteran absurd thing is the plasma gun which is a more common problem because the book bores people, they want to dash or go invis
Honestly, I think those two skills you're blowing them out of proportion because there's a lot more issues with skills than those two. Any skill that grants invisibility for example. Or the all-powerful orgyn shield.
That being said, the survivalist ammo perk isn't that powerful. I don't run it often, but even when I do it doesn't do much on higher difficulties. I still find most of my team out of ammo when I'm staying with the squad.
And The loaner perk for the zealot. If you're worried about newer players trying to struggle because of that one Park, then you should ask them to respect every perk that says plus 5% + 2.5% plus whatever percent. Or procs off of a 1% chance or a 3% chance?. That kind of statistics throws new people off way more. I bought the game for seven people already and got them into the game and the part that makes them struggle is not that perk. Most of them that play zealot don't want to play that perk.
What makes almost every single one of them struggle is the percentages.
Survivalist isn't that powerful but I do agree on Loner being a passive that takes up the aura slot. The easiest fix would be to move it out of the Aura pool and replace it with something actually Aura-ly.
Loner can still be in there but a little lower on the tree
The Survivalist ability is supposed to help with nit fighting over ammo with other players as well as surviving up to Auric Damnation difficulty
Loner is fine its meant for soloing when your running off to do something making it have a 12 second lingering effect would literally make it pointless. sure it's a team game but sometimes the whole team is dead 😂
Survivalist node is not the only node that limits weapon choice Weapon speicalist does too. Vet Needs a reworks on the left side of there tree in general. Shooting enemy gunner is very hard from in how squishy the Vet is in taking damage on higher difficultys. I want to shoot hordes of range units which destroy though nealy intensely. On top melees spawning next to player all the time which make quick reload guns the only opition to be more effective
The loner knife zealot that looks like the insurance commercial caveman running off ignoring saving everyone and dies at the end bc he thought he was the coolest player in the game smh
As a Bolter user, Survivalist just isnt worth it on matches like Auric Maelstrom, I mean its literally 1 bullet every 5s because your fighting nothing but elites..I forgot what the other auras was called but Id rather give my teamates a 5%+ dmg than getting 1 bullet back..
I think auras in general need a rework. I barely, if ever path down to an aura because of the buffs (survivalist is an exception), i just path down because it happens to be in that place to get to the next talent.
Imo they should give everyone some nerfed version of survivalist where they get like .5% ammo for every elite/special kill they make themselves and just give vet double ammo reserves everyone gets to pew pew as long as they are effective and vet gets to pew pew a lot and doest have to be as ammo efficient and gets more from pickups. As for the new aura i think increased weakspot or finesse is the most fitting
One thought i had was replacing survivalist with something like "ammo dump". When a player is low on ammo, they are able to use ammo from another teammate. You would have to have conversion factors for ammo types, and say a limiting percentage so you couldnt just have an unlimited supply. Say you are on 20% ammo and ally is on 90%, you could use some of their ammo until they are down to a threshold of say 70%. Fits with the whole vibe of sqaud warfare as well.
This is a rough idea.
At first I was like nah, and then I was like hmm! Yeah haha
How about a talent that gives your teammates that are in coherency somewhere between 1-5% ammo whenever you pick up an ammo box
Fatshark really needs to settle on an actual philosophy for ammo in Darktide and fucking see it through. This half measure bullshit is intolerable. Either they copy V2's proven concept of "pay the talent point opportunity cost to spec into infinite ammo" and accept that doing so will allow pure ranged builds to flourish. Or they nix all major ammo economy talents and force everyone to scavenge, accepting that doing so will make pure ranged builds pretty bad unless they retool the ammo pickup system significantly.
Coherency in general also could use a pass. All of the stat buff auras are basically designed to be near meaningless and the toughness regen is essentially vestigial. Coherency could be entirely removed and it wouldn't mean much to anyone except ogryn lynchpin builds or a brand new character's first couple of games.
He survivalist nerf is such dogshit dude. They ALWAYS over nerf whether its DT or VT2.
i think loner should be changed to benefit the rest of the fireteam without losing its current functionality, so my proposal is a rewording more than anything. you count as two players for coherency. max coherency bonus is still four, but this would allow you to make up for a downed teammate by sticking with the group, while still allowing you to strike out on your own. maybe renaming it to something like "faithful's flock" to reflect how it encourages people to join the zealot in pushes.
Great points
Love your vids
I agree 100% about loner
I agree to all of the ideas in the video. I hope FS takes it to heart.
what if Scavenger increased the amount of ammo you pickup?, would that change something from the passive "on elite/special kill" trigger?
Yeah idk about the Loner one, i think it works fine as it does, i get how the game is supposed to be ultra teambased but a loner zealot will still pull a fair amount of enemies which itself does contribute and when they're running the funny rat build they cab take out specials and elites that could cause manor problems for the main group. I do agree that at lower levels zealots thinking it's a leave the team for free card could be a problem but if they dont learn by getting thoroughly gutted by their lack of playtime and knowledge and downed repeatedly then they were probably going to be a team dodging problem to begin with, loner just keeps them alive slightly longer. I dont play vet so nothing to say about the other half of the video, just my two cents on loner and i fully understand any different opinions and do think yours(assuming jtc or people with like opinions are reading) make perfectly fine sense.
Me who never used survivalist on my vet I see this as a win lol
Loner should be keystone.
Surely making Survivalist a baseline Vet ability, would still make balancing weapons like Revolver and Bolter almost impossible. If you balance them for Vet, then they'll suck hard on Zealot/Psyker, but if you balance them for Zeal/Psy, then they'll be right back at having infinite ammo on Vet.
I mean isn't the point of Vet to be better with ranged weapons? I thought that was the whole deal.
@@dizerelj5678 "Better with ranged weapons" doesn't have to mean "nearly unlimited ammo".
Agreed. I think that a balance should be had where veterans can’t just have infinite ammo and just play the game like payday 2 or L4D or something. Darktide’s combat is about swapping in between melee and ranged when it’s efficient, and just playing the game like L4D is something I think the game wouldn’t wanna incentivise
I honestly just think the order of the trees is really awkward and some useless branches for perk trees need some buffs XD like zealots…
Its alright if you are the last one alive to clutch the game.
Reload speed for survivalist aura would be a bit meh in my oppinion. Why not just give extra ammo capacity instead for the team? You don't get the OP effect on every single elite/special kills, but it is still designed to increase your team's shooting capacity while also granting more value from ammo pick ups.
Problem with that being that its still an aura, the team would have to lose the extra ammo when leaving coherency. Extra ammo from pickups while in coherency could be a potential choice though.
@@vinniegaan9559 I suggest this in my rant in the above comments. If these tubers are gonig to crusade on ammo, lets address it directly and tweak class/playstyle defining auras rather than address the auras first and amm osecond.
@@vinniegaan9559 Nothing prevents them from making it a permanent buff and make other aura effects affected by coherency.
Loner is kind of funny in a way. It's an aura that you take to make you and your team worse than if you didn't pick anything at all. If I were a more cynical person I might think they made it specifically to punish you for trying to get TWBS but Hanlon's Razor applies here I think. Survivalist is just kinda fucked. The way they designed it makes it generally worthless on lower difficulties and massively influential on higher ones due to the increased rate of elites and specials. If they want to keep it as an ammo-recovery based effect, it ought to be divorced from the enemy spawn mechanics.
Lone would work better if it made you count as 2 people in coherence.
I'd go just a little bit different route. Cause I see Vet's role to be more backliner and taking elites/specialists out, I'd change Survivalist not as a name but for its core feature to be something like "when Veteran is out of Coherency He/She would get a 10% more Stamina for 12sec. Proc can happend after cd of 10sec. after the last the effect has ended" - That I think can prevent Vet's to be pinned down by Hordes or even Ragers when focusing on pint point fire.
The Loner Aura isn't a hurting anyone or isn't a huge boost to Zealots, but you suggestion is Valid too.
Great Video and good ideas.
Btw, What is your take on Plasma gun? - I think it's way too OP. and it shouldn't be in the game at all.
It's funny that even after such huge nerf, survivalist is still way better than the other two.
The only reason to grab anything else is if you want to get specific nodes or just preserve some talent points. Which is a problem in itself. it would be great if aura nodes were blank spaces and we could put there any aura we wanted. More freedom of choice and FS could add even more auras in the future.
I believe most auras need some kind of rework or at least buff, but Survivalist and Loner are definitely the most problematic. Rest of them are just lazy. Instead of cool interactions between teammates we get things like +5% move speed that have zero impact on gameplay. Just terribly lazy design.
Yeah i always laugh when i see people not playing with survivalist cuz idk what build and skills you would ever be running otherwise and especially given the nerf. I get some of it is people running smoke grenades for the penance but im always running catch a breath so id love to see what skills people are even playing with to take the other auras cuz i would never. There is no reason not to take survivalist aura unless you want to handicap your team. Basically every veteran build can take survivalist and i wont ever play without it.
Zealot Aura sounds like a perfect idea, although I think that the veteran Aura should have an additional Nerf that only allows 25% of your max ammo regenerated. This allows the hard-hitting low ammo count weapons to still take out priority targets. But the spray and pray weapons can't go all out all the time.
Now I do have a bit of bias because I like using flamethrower and having more up time with that is fun but the aura as it was allows people (myself included) to develop bad habits for higher difficulties.
So why not just reduce the max capacity of those weapons instead of nerfing the only aura that opens up one of the main reasons a lot of people play darktide; to shoot heretics.
Zealot aura sound perfect if you want anyone with any skil lto ignore coherency sicne it'll effectively increase the radius but only for the ones 'leaving;' it with these suggestion.There's never any need to ru nback to your team if you enjoy taking on as much as possible, you jus tdip into coherency and boo, got the buffs for 12 seconds.
@@benclark3457 if you nerve capacity on all weapons then that further exacerbates the problem they're talking about it doesn't fix anything.
@@PhantomHacksaw that's sounds awful who would suggest such a thing. What are you talking about
@@benclark3457 I mentioned two categories of weapons that make up a large majority of the roster. You then suggested to lower the max capacity of them.
@@PhantomHacksaw we talking about the aura. I asked a simple question.
Then you get missions like maelstroms where a single horde is like 100 plus enemies and your best option most of the time is just blast your whole clip into the horde in front of you like your life depends on it and also loner in my opinion is fine because there is times where a loner zealot clutches a whole match because of it
loner is ok - it doesnt break game balance while giving playstyle choice (you dont have to like it, thought, and I think you version of loner is better). Survivalist on the other side messes with core gunplay mechanic, which opens door for endless balance issues. Reload aura would be nice. I think veteran could just have some bonus ammo on cooldown basis as innate ability or to better balance higher difficulties t give ammo to vet for each 5 or so elites/specials not for every special also as innate ability and ONLY to vet himself
nerf he player like character skills and weapons
For vet maybe 5% weak point or range damage boost aura?
Please no. We don't need another useless aura that no one cares about.
Remove the 5 seconds, scavenge is beautiful.
BRO SAID THAT HAVING AMMO IS LAME.
Entire opinion discarded, fucker has never had to use the recon lasguns on heresy or higher before
@@Doktor_Lutscher I mean to be fair, the recon lasguns are pretty weak, so you probably shouldn't use it on heresy or upwards, at least not until Fatshark buff the max ammo, base damage and headshot damage, if they would buff these 3 stats recon las would become amazing, but at the moment they kind of suck outside of the lower difficulties.
This game was great but the devs epically failed on content … to call this a live service game is a pathetic joke .. i just uninstalled it because ive been doing the same missions for way too long and im done
agree