Evil Offering DELTA Suspension vs Kona Process 153 Single-Pivot REVIEW
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- čas přidán 6. 09. 2024
- Full analysis to compare two different linkage-drive single pivot suspension designs: the Evil Offering and the Kona Process 153. Find out how each works as well as the the pros and cons of each suspension design.
Topics include:
anti-rise
anti-squat
leverage ratio
spring rate
wheel rate
wheel path
chain growth
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#mtb
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#evilbikes
You should do a video on how linkage designs have gotten better throughout MTB history
That is a super interesting idea. Thx.
They havnt
Super nice work man. Thanks for that 🤜🏼🤛🏼
The Commencal Meta AM could be interesting 😁
Keep the great work ✌🏼 Peace
Thanks!
@@TrailPOV plus one for the commencal, with a coil. asking for a friend ;)
'Nother great one! I know already bugged you with a wacky suggestion recently, but I just thought of another one... Linkage fork analysis! Could be fun ;-)
I've already been in talks with one company regarding this 👍
Funny you mentioned pedal kick back on the Evil. I feel that going over roots at slow speed (climbing) it's very noticeable, it'll stop you you right in your tracks. It's a good all around pedaling bike though.
Thanks for the feedback. Always glad to hear my analysis matches real world 🙂
Seeing as how the vitus mythique and Polygon siskiu seem to be some of the top choices for budget FS bikes these days, you should do a comparison between the two. I'd be super curious to hear your thoughts. Excellent videos as always!!!
Thanks for the input
Very nice analysis! I can’t speak for the Offering, but I roll with a Following MB, and the suspension system is almost identical. I cannot speak highly enough about the Evil suspensions. 👌
Nice. Happy trails!
Dave is a genius.
"not an old school design..." The irony there is Dave W posted a 3D model picture of the basic Evil suspension design in an MTBR thread about 20 years ago. Before the Evil chain guide or the E13 brand existed. It just took a really long time for the rest of technology to catch up to his vision.
Fun fact :)
Awesome video as usual! I have an Evil Offering and am considering switching to an Ibis Ripmo V1... In your opinion between this and the Ripmo v1 suspension you reviewed, what would be the pros and cons from the single pivot Delta vs the DW Link on the Ripmo? It would be nice to see those two Dave Weagle designs compared head to head to see the differences, rather than comparing a comparable suspension design. I'll donate to that!
Surprisingly these design share many similarities. The Offering will remain slightly more level during braking due to its slightly higher anti-rise values. The Offering also will have better bottom out resistance due to it's more progressive leverage ratio overall as well as it's leverage ratio turning progressive during the last quarter of it's travel rather than regressive like the Ripmo V1. The Ripmo V1 does have less chain growth, but not by much. I'd stick with the Offering if you already have one :)
I think you've found your audience. Keep up the good work.
Hehe indeed. Although there will still be biking videos comes the summer. These videos take about 20hrs to produce so doing them all the time means no time for anything else
@@TrailPOV I completely understand but also look at other MTB CZcamsrs out there doing trail reviews, how much time do they spend driving out to new spots they haven't reviewed yet? All the big names except Seth, and only because he owns his own bike park, spend days or weeks driving out to new spots for new content. Most have even decided to live in a van so they can get to more spots to keep the costs down. Just food for thought.
@@JClark2600 Definately good point
Great video to help decide on which to purchase. I have a Evil following and won't be replacing it for a long while. Awesome bike!!!
Nice!
I think a video on the Forbidden Druid's Suspension would be interesting, high pivot bike with a rear-ward axle path in the initial travel.
Thanks for the input
Love your videos, please do a YT Capra suspension breakdown!
It is in the poll but so far the Enduro seems to be winning for next video
A video on the Specialized Enduro vs YT Capra 29 just went live on Patreon if you're interested
Great videos! Would love to see the data on my Guerrilla Gravity's suspension!
Thanks for the input
there are linkage driven single pivot bicycles with seatstay brake mount. you can analyse some of those. (eg. pyga)
Love this video. Very interesting . But ill say 153 is an all mountain / enduro
Kinda sits in the middle ground between trail and enduro so probably all-mountain is the best descriptor
I think Rocky Mountain’s “SmoothLink” suspension is a no-brainer since you are located up North, right? I ride a 17’ thunderbolt (120mm) which feels like it has way more travel than it suggests and feels very progressive and extremely capable.
Haha. I almost bought a RM Slayer, but they're a hot commodity up here and couldn't find one anywhere to buy. I'll be sure to add a Rocky Mtn to my poll.
Would love to see you compare the Pivot Mach 5.5 and trail 429 seems like they have an eccentric linkage that feels different than most
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll add it to my next Patreon poll
Excellent work man! Hope to see GT bikes in future videos 🤙🏼 cheers!
There's been quite a few requests for GT lately so it'll make it onto the polls after next vid
Trail POV awesome! 👌🏼😁
Could you do the Trek Fuel Ex 2020? They got rid of the floating point this year and would like to see your thoughts.
Thanks for the suggestion.
This
You should do a video explaining hartail geometry and how it affects the riding, as with a HT you cant tune the shock :D
Interesting thought
fun fact - the Evil might actually be DW's first suspension design. He posted a 3D model version of it on the MTBR forums way back around 2001. Way back when the first Evil chain guide was still in its first iteration and E13 wasn't even a dream yet.
That is a fun fact. Thanks for the input!
@@TrailPOV other fun fact - I apparently posted the same comment 9 months ago. (Doh!)
@@ianfurqueron5850 Haha
Dig the channel and wish you every success with it! Have followed your work for a while, always great info. I'm sure you'll get requests to do every single bike / combo out there lol. But... I'll toss my .02 in too. It's cool seeing like for like comparisons (single pivots in this case) but I also like seeing comparisons between different suspension designs, but on bike in the same competitive category, for example, Nukeprooff Mega 290 v4 (Horst) Evil Wreckoning v3 (DELTA single Pivot) and Ibis Ripmo v2 (DW link) but all in the same aggressive trail bike/ Enduro category.
Keep them coming. Good stuf!
Thanks very much for all the input and stoke for the channel!
You should do a analysis on the Structure Cycles SCW1. Would love to see your breakdown of that linkage suspension system.
I've talked with the owners and it's likely a video will come out at some point in the future about this and others
Very good video analysis.....!
Very informative video. Would be interested to hear your thoughts on how to tune the shocks on the various platforms you analyse to get the most out of them.
I am particularly interested in how you would tune a process 153 wth a focus on descending as that is what I ride.
Thanks for the great videos.
Shock tune is a whole other in-depth study that I have tended to stay away from because it's so personal and varied based on rider weight, intended purpose, shock mfg etc. With the Kona 153 I would say experiment with more volume spacers to try and add some ramp up deep in the travel to aid in bottom out prevention and some mid travel support.
@@TrailPOV you're right, my 153 used to be bottoming out easily on bigger hits, i insert them volume spacer and it does the job supports midstroke and resisting it from bottoming out, rides in burly trail with more confidence 👍🏽
@@satriahamzad1932 Nice!
Another awesome vid! Really diggin the technical content and analysis. Keep it up! 👍😎
Thanks very much!
Bikes that I would love to see you do: YT Jeffsy, YT Capra, Transition Scout, Pivot Switchblade, Revel Rail, Canyon Strive, Fezzari La Sal Peak, Nukeproof Reactor. (I know this is a huge list, sorry!)
Hi Trey. Thanks for the input. Feel free to join me on Patreon to move some of these up or on the list.
A video on the Specialized Enduro vs YT Capra 29 just went live on Patreon if you're interested
Very detailed. Would be interesting of the dynamics of an Orange Five, a true single pivot, no linkage. Be nice to see if it is still viable (although lack of maintenance may outweigh any slight suspension issues).
It's in my poll, but people seem to be more interested in the complicated designs.
Thanks for making these videos. Very cool!
Thanks!
Really liking these suspension reviews 👍 never seen anyone doing these before. It would be much appreciated if you add a canyon strive and your reviews soon as i just purchased one last month and would be great to know the ins and outs of the fame travel. Thanks
Thanks and congrats on the new bike! The Strive is on the poll, but it'll all depend on how everyone votes.
I'd love to see some more information about bikes with idlers. You may not know of the Craftworks ENR (being a small Australian company) but it's unusual in that it has a dynamic idler on a frame using a 4-bar linkage. I'd love to see that compared to something like the Forbidden Druid.
The Druid is coming in the future. Never heard of Craftworks but will be sure to take a look. Thx.
I have been riding an Offering for a year.
Agree with this analysis in real world. Pedaling efficiency is very noticeable, but the drawback is pedal kickback and harshness in lots of situations. Another benefit of this is cornering through supported corners (berms). It really accelerates and no mushiness. I have not tried a coil shock and would be curious if this would have any effect on the harshness, or would it make it worse? Anyone have any experience with this?
Good to hear my analysis agrees. Since the kickback is due to frame design a coil should improve it except for reducing friction in the shock which may make it move a little easier
Please consider a Propain Rage for your next video
It has a quite unique linkage system for a downhill bike
I've got the Propain Tyee listed on my poll, but it'll all depend on what everyone is generally interested in seeing next
Have you ever done a review of the Specialized StumpJumper suspension? I’d be curious to see how the characteristics change between the regular and ST versions, as I have a regular one but am toying with moving towards a ST version to get a more progressive feeling bike, a bit more engaging to ride.
Unfortunately haven't looked at the Stump jumper yet
I was very intrigued by your statement about hindering the performance of the linkage by holding the pedal level when descending (5:15). I'm aware of how the connection between the chainring and cassette effects the actuation of the linkage and shock through chain-growth but I've not heard about keeping the cranks level or not helping remedy the level of felt kickback. If someone understands the concept would you mind elaborating?
Pedal kickback is the force exerted on the chain/pedals by the back cassette due to suspension movement. If you hold the pedals level then that movement of the suspension is halted as the chain growth has to come from somewhere
@@TrailPOV Still not sure I follow, how would having the cranks at lets say 3 and 9 o'clock (which is what I assume you mean by level) change the amount of kickback than if the cranks were at some other arbitrary position for example 1 and 7 o'clock?
@@on1ytheb3st Ah I see what you're trying to get at. The exact locations doesn't matter, it's just the not moving part that's the key. I assume most people ride fairly level but if you held the pedals at another non-level position the same suspension effect would occur.
You are definitely the best, thumbs up
Awwww, thanks :)
I would love to see an analysis of cheaper bikes with a classic four-bar horst link suspension with vertical position damper 🤔. like:
Radon Swoop 170
Cube Stereo 150
NS Snabb 160
Rose pikes peak en
The suspension design looks very similar on these bikes and is very popular.
Thanks for the input. At this time I've only looked at the 4-bar horst of the Scott Ransom
@@TrailPOV Nice.
I would like to know just what he characterizes this type of suspension, because it is very popular.
although didn't understand a word of it still great video🤣😂🤙🏻😎😜the bike is riding well suspension works just fine by both
😅
Great analysis! Can you do Trek's ABP 4 bar review (slash/remedy)? Thank you!
It's on my poll but so far the Enduro seems to be winning
Great analysis! I subbed and look forward to more reviews.
Thanks very much!
Awesome analysis! subbed.
Thanks!
Can you speak at all to the effects of changing wheel sizes? For instance, I run an Evil Following MB, but the shop I bought it from converted it from a 29 to a 27.5
Unfortunately (or fortunately) I haven't delved into the wheel size debate. I'd say ride what you have if it feels good :)
An interesting comparison might be the Zerode Taniwha Vs Deviate Guide.
That would be interesting. Thanks for the input.
Very nice as always. Quick question. Does going from a 32T chainring to a 30 increase or decrease anti squat values?
It will decrease the anti-squat, but only by a few percent....the back cassette gear has such a big difference because the size difference between a 50 tooth and 11 is huge
Damn, this must have been a tough one
This one did take a lot of time to edit
Could you look at the propain spindrift next? It's a realy interesting suspension design and I was wondering how it compares to the vpp design of Santacruz.
Thanks for the input. I've got the Propain Tyee on the poll, so it'll all depend on how many others are interested :)
Very interesting analysis, Well done!...when buying a bike people should be looking for bike geometry and suspension design instead of fork angles and parts instead of bike geometry and suspension design. Wandering what software you use to compute those?
Thanks. I used a custom designed Excel spreadsheet along with 2D CAD software.
Commecal meta AM 29" any time soon?! I'm extremely interested in knowing the leverage ratio curve and the anti squat. I'm looking into replacing the shocks but I have no clue if coil or air would be more appropriate for the Meta geometry. BTW, what kind of software you use to plot those chart? is it something accessible for the mass?
Great Vid, did subscribe
Hi Eric. I used CAD data provided by the manufacturer and CAD software along with a custom spreadsheet to calculate my values. You could always choose to support me a Patreon and vote on the Commencal to bump it up the list #shameless-plug
It would be interesting to know how much of the information in this video applies to the updated 2021 Kona Process153
Tough to say as they changed the shock placement which could affect the leverage ratio quite a bit
Would you mind doing an analysis of the updated 2020 Evil Wreckoning? It’s got a lot of options, but they redesigned designed the delta with a coil shock in mind. I’d love to see your thoughts.
Ended up doing an analysis of this bike for a Patreon member recently and was planning on posting the results in the near future there #shamelessplug
Excellent work
Thanks very much!
These analysis are amazing! Subscribed! Very interested on the new Specialized enduro 2020 with 170mm front and rear 😊
Thanks! Enduro vid should be coming out within the week :)
@@TrailPOV yey! Thanks a lot! Really enjoyed watching these series.
A video on the Specialized Enduro vs YT Capra 29 just went live on Patreon if you're interested
Would love to see the new 2020 norco sight 29. That'd br really cool to see what norco have done
Thanks for the input
@@TrailPOV I have really odd setup for mine. I own the 2020 sight a3 29, but due to stock supply issue in the first batch in Australia, norco just put on super deluxes for free. It's a 17kg bike in a size large. I'm running 3 volume spacers with a megneg on. 0 neg bands. And running her at 35% sag at 180psi. I have plans to stick in a charger 2 rc2 damper into the yari. It's an odd setup to go for 35% sag. But it feels really really good.
@@ross_rusher0243 As long as it feels good that's all that matters :)
@@TrailPOV exactly 🤣
Excellent video. Please do a ripley v4 vs trail 429 or tallboyv4
Thanks for the input
Yes do make more!!
Will do
@@TrailPOV Commencal clash?
really enjoy it thank you
Thanks
Great content 👍🏾
Thanks for watching
Please make breakdown of MDE Damper 29" 2020 suspension design!!!
Never heard of them before. Thanks for the suggestion.
love #support
Can you do the new transition patrol 2021/22
Love your video, would you do a compare for EVIL offering MB vs Trek Remedy?
Thanks for the suggestion
Great stuff!
Thanks!
Love these videos! Do you use special software model the suspension designs?
I end up using the geometry diagrams that mfg supply and then CAD software to model the suspension movement and spreadsheet for the math and graphs.
Compare split pivot Devinci Spartan to these please
Why the Scott ransom is a four link suspension and the Kona a Single pivot? They look the same, I'm confused.
Good question. The different is the location of the pivot by the rear axle. With the Ransom the pivot is below the axle and on the wheel axle is actually located on the upper seatstay, while with the Kona the pivot is located above the axle causing the wheel axle to be located on the bottom chainstay.
@@TrailPOV awesome! that makes a lot of sense, thanks. So where would this leave the Trek Remedy/Slash and the Devinci Spartan? might be interesting to analyze
@@felipefarias7654 Glad to hear
Do the GT Force 29!
GT definately have an interesting suspension system
Great video! Could you compare the 2017 Specialised Demo to the new 2020 Demo? Cheers
Thanks for the suggestion
Could you do the gt fury 29 with the high main pivot four bar and idler wheel
Do an old school proflex xp6 that would be interesting to see how things have progressed since the 90's .... and because i still ride one 🤣
Interesting idea. Thanks.
That’s super interessant ! Can you do that for the giant suspension cinematic ?
Thanks for the input
Looking at the Kona Process 153, but now you made me second that, i'm a bigger rider, i also been looking at Ripmo AF, what would you go for? Nice Vid Btw
Thanks. I personally would go for the Ripmo AF.
@@TrailPOV Tanks for the response, any other suggested bikes? I do liked the Process, was thinking if i would install a Megneg to ramp it up a bit if I buy it. Also looking at Trek FEX8 / Remedy 8 / Going to demo a SLASH 8 (i think it will be too much for our trails here in sweden, but i do live next to a bikepark) You see, i got to many options!
@@andersappelgren7375 It really depends on your budget, bike availability and which one you just feel comfortable on. Some bikes just rub people the wrong way....like me and the previous design of the Specialized Enduro of which I just didn't enjoy the shape.
awesome
Thanks!
And Orbea Rallon? Is single-pivot too
Curious what the effects of an oval chainring would have on pedal kickback, considering its smaller on one spectrum and bigger on another...
I was actually watching Worldwide Cyclery's video the other day about this and wondering it myself. Will have to sit down and see if I can rationalize it on paper
@@TrailPOV Let me know please!
@@MrDjindian So based on the typical orientation of an oval chainring, it's either going to improve the kickback or make it the same if holding the pedals level. The bigger the effective diameter the less pedal kickback -- note: the smaller effective diameter is generally mounted facing front and back of the bike (hopefully that makes sense)
Please review Forvidden Druid and Orange Stage!
The Druid is on my poll but so far the Enduro seems to be leading for next video.
Review the Vitus Escarpe VR. Thanks
The process is much more of the Enduro category? 160mm and most boost it to 170?
It's certainly on the upper bounds of trail....interestingly the Evil has a 160mm front listed as an optional spec from factory, which would greatly change how this bike rides and feels
What's the difference between kona's system and the maestro system that a lot of other companies use? They look fairly similar.....thanks
Very different systems. Kona uses a traditional four bar with a long chainstay arm while maestro and dw-link uses a very short bar that is near the bottom bracket that is then connected to the chainstay
@@TrailPOV what are the positives and negatives with each system?
@@clmfilms8103 you'd have to watch my other video I have on the maestro suspension to see
@@TrailPOV how similar is kona's system compared to trek's?
Nice Videos, keep it up
Thanks very much!
Could you do the canyon neuron (carbon version) lineage plz I have one and would like to know more about it!
Thanks for the suggestion
not true about stiffness... Evil has one big element - yes - but it hinge on single axle, whereas Kona chainstay (element with wheel axle) is one element too, seatstay and rocker can only add stiffness (extra points of support), not decrease....
If bearings are replaced often then perhaps they could be made the same stiffness, but from everything I've read the more pivot locations the more play in the rear triangle due to either the thinner walls around the bearing or the slight movement of a worn bearing.
@@TrailPOV it could be definietely right for horst-link (or other 4 bars), but not for faux-bar. in that Kona - more bars can mean stiffer rear.
thank you!! just what i wanted :) Overall What do you think of the kona process , great bike? trail or enduro ?
Thanks very much. Overall its going to be a fun bike but not the most efficient to pedal and it's very linear suspension means it may not be good for bigger hitting runs. I'd tend to put it in the trail or funduro category rather than an Enduro racer.
Might be late now but I race on one, super fun
Can you do a review for the Rocky mountain Slayer 29 suspension design?
Or for the yt Capra?
@@giannisfan3244 It's in the poll but so far the Enduro seems to be leading for the next vid
Can anyone pls explain to me why the kona is a single pivot, but the Scott is a 4 bar?
The Scott has a pivot on the lower chainstay and thus the wheel is suspended in the 4-bar, while the Kona has a pivot on the upper seatstay and thus there is a single link between the wheel and main pivot
Are the handle bars adjustable?
Always. You can change them out for new ones or rolls then in place.
Is a GIANT TRANCE 3 a single pivot?
No it's running a 4-bar linkage called Maestro. There is a small link located just behind the front chainring.
Can you please do Giant's Maestro system please? :)
Thanks for the suggestion. There have been several requests for this, but it all depends on the Patreon poll I just posted
Do Marin's Multi Trac system
I can't really subscribe on patron or any other platform. Need to think about every penny atm. But I do wish to see you do an analysis on Revel CBF suspension and the PRO10 suspension on the new Propain Tyee. I'll cross my fingers and hope to see those videos one day. 🤞🤞
Thanks for the honesty. CBF will be coming up in the future :)
Would you do us a huge service and feature the Motobecane HAL 6 from bikesdirect? TIA ;)
Never even heard of them. Thanks for the input
isnt the kona process a horst link?
Nope. The pivot in the rear is above the axle on the seatstay rather than below on the chainstay
@@TrailPOV ah thank you
Wait - isn't the Kona Process actually a four-bar suspension design?
It's is not. The pivot by the rear axle is above the axle not below, resulting in a single bar between the main pivot by the front chainring and the axle
@@TrailPOV - so you're telling me that the kinematics of the Process vs say, the Scott Ransom will be markedly different? Fascinating!
@@WesMacaulay Yup definately....seems like a small difference, but big impact 🧐
knolly four bar
Yes!! +1
I'm really enjoying your videos keep them coming. This guy hardly does any videos but I found this guy a few months ago and my interest in his videos was a good primer for yours. It's: andrextr
Thanks. I've already subscribed to his channel.
👍
Polygon Xquareone DH9 pleasee
Thanks for the input
Wow what a gray video.
It's actually dark purple background. Try to match the colors to the bike frames.
Omg I meant GREAT!!!
@@gtrance3567 Haha!
Specialized levo?
It is likely that I will eventually cover an e-bike or two. Possibly the levo or kenevo or comparing the rocky mountain which made their own motor design to have no impact on geometry...I want to see how true that is
@@TrailPOV Nice. In the meantime for normal bikes, the commencal clash looks like a fun one to do maybe?
make a video about the YT capra
It's coming out this week :)
A video on the YT Capra 29 just went live on Patreon if you're interested
Yt Jeffsy please