Some gravel bikes support 180 / 160. You mentioned that gravel bikes are slower so don't benefit so much from bigger rotors, but you forgot the added weight from stuff like bikepacking.
I put a 180mm front disc on my Open UP, using it with the Hope RX4+ so no adapter needed. It gives a massive amount of braking power, tons of modulation as well. Super happy with it so far.
thank you for doing this, I will look into it next time I change my rotors / pads ... I was actually already thinking about adapting some MTB mounts for this
Thumbs up, purely for the selection of fasteners. Now work on the other side of the equation. I recommend Wera L wrenchs. By far the nicest set of hex and torx wrenches I have ever laid my hands on.
I have a Canyon Grail e-gravel bike and it needed a brake upgrade! I converted rotors from 160mm to 1800mm front and rear, thicker rotors, sintered brake pads, (1. organic, 2. semi metallic, 3. sintered or blocks of steel!!). It now stops vs. quickly coming to a stop.
I think this is great one engineer to another. Recently experienced a crash on a steep descent in the Yorkshire dales which has left me with a broken collarbone. When looking at my bike after the incident, my 160mm front Sram rotor has significantly changed colour due to the overheating. Maybe a bigger disc would have reduced this and allowed me to scrub off enough speed to avoid the crash.
I just changed from 160 to 180 on my giant toughroad, and it feels much better, I've already ordered the rear kit. Hopefully the fork will handle it on the long run.
Cool project… thinking of getting this for my gravel bike. 2 questions: caliper/rotor adjustments will be made with factory 160mm bolt/plate and not from your adapter? And do you have a rear brake version?
That’s a great idea. Just a few small issues might pop up: - width of tire limited - no use of hookless - temperature issues with latex tubes - worn brake tracks are a pain to swap - poor wet performance
I use my brakes a lot more and for longer periods on my gravel bike than on the road, but I routinely do 800+m descents that are technical enough to require near constant braking. It has 180/160, which I've been happy with that.
Exactly. On gravel you are moving slowly enough that there is no aero drag, so you're putting 100% of the descent energy into the discs. My gravel bike has a lot more brake fade on gravel descents than road descents.
I was literally just considering doing this for my gravel bike the other day to help manage heat on descents. Gravel races around me have a lot of descents that you'll be going 80kmh off and on the brakes hoping it doesn't fade by the end of the hill.
Wow very nice adapter! I do not ride road disc bikes,but I had the same brake mounted in various bikes/rotor size combos and 160mm rotors had more pad wear than bigger 180 or 203 mm,it is totally true. Yo need more time on the brakes with the small rotors to do the same job or pull harder the lever. My dirt jump bike wear very fast the pads,only 160mm rear brake to stop the bike,never had a problem with the small disc but I see why many riders would choose a bigger disc.
That is a really nice invention and one that really makes a lot of sense, unlike some other inventions like hookless rims and hidden cables. Thanks for your contribution to the cycling community and I wish you some good success. Just have to ask, what centerlock rotor would be your choice for use on a road bike?
Here I am using XT. Merida use XT or XTR. In reality the holes are quite big so next time I would find something with smaller holes to be kinder on the smaller road pad.
@@PeakTorque I ordered one of your adapters because I like the idea also can never have enough adapters. And I ordered a Shimano SM-RT900 XTR/Dura-Ace 180mm rotor. Another question I have is pad material. Resin vs metallic. Metallic should also be better right, even if it is more noisy I understand it has more stopping power. Or do you think that those pads would be to harsh and aggressive on the Shimano rotors?
I was looking at 180mm options when I got my new road bike last year but couldn’t find anything suitable. Have ended up with spare 160mm discs now so it’s unlikely I’m going to change. 160 seems fine, have had some squealing on fast descents but hadn’t realised the bike came with resin pads rather than the sintered ones I’m used to
I'm 80kgs, ran 140mm front and rear on a Cannondale. No issues, brakes were fantastic. Now run 160/160 and brakes are fantastic. No issues with warping braking down from 45mph to 15mph. Can't see the need, never felt there was a thermal problem. For me 160/140 is the perfect combo. 4 different bikes 2 were shimano 2 SRAM.
Very tempting to do one of these conversions. Good to know that braking into a steep hairpin won't turn my fork into an origami crane with 180s too, which would have been my main concern
Haven't seen many forks break, not that it cannot be an issue. I would be more worried about super-light, low-spoke-count front rims tho, see those collapse in more than one occasion under really hard riding.
I got my fork made with the flat mount 180 spacing (which is printed on the side of the stock shimano adapter you have in the video) I think it's a better idea, marginal difference in weight or aerodynamics vs 160mm, probably see more road forks made that way
Have you considered thicker rotors a go for increased thermal dissipation and warping reduction (e.g. SRAM HS2 rotors at 2.00mm thick)? Not 100% if Shimano calipers can clear the +0.15mm in rotor thickness but SRAM HRD calipers certainly can even with new pads.
Great explanation. It ain't about the ability to lock the wheels. Heck I can lock the wheels with my shoe on the wheel. It's about how the braking feels and braking confidence. I have 203mm on 4 piston calipers on my mtb and the confidence I have vs my road bike is tremendous. Obviously overkill but having more rotor and larger pads is incredibly nice to have.
I agree that modulation is key. I also have 203mm rotors F/R with 4-piston Shimano brakes on my trail bike, and I find the modulation "addictive", and overheating hasn't been an issue so far. My BIL's trail HT that came with MT400 class 2-piston brakes and the typ. "resin only" rotors and pads, have zero issues locking either wheel but consistency suffers as the rotor gets hotter and hotter, and modulation @ the edge of locking up is worse throughout.
FWIW, I don't think that there is much concern about increased forces on the forks. The peak torque (heh!) about the spindle is still limited by the tyre grip, so assuming that the brake could be locked before, that remains unchanged. At this limit point the force at the brake pads it reduced, and the bending moment on the bottom of the fork leg is exactly the same. There is (maybe?) a different balance between the forces on the two mounting points. If you consider a very large adaptor then you could see the force at the bottom mount become a tension force, and the force at the top mount then becomes larger. I don't think that you have gone far enough for this to be a real issue.
I wouldn't take the risk on these weak road forks. When was the last time you locked up the front brake at high speeds? My forks broke on 32mm tires, 160mm rotors. I've switched to 140mm now and gravel forks. Be careful.
Love your channel bro.... As a long time mountain biker xc and long back trail rides.... Why do road riders not use MtB disks and hubs... Surely the light weight XC hubs and brakes would be a good choice
Just came from a multiday gravel /bikepacking trip where both of my brakes failed within few km of each other. Pad just came off / cracked in half. Bike was loaded with extra 15kg and I assume it happened during a rough steep mtb section dragging the brakes for a longer time. The pads and 160mm shimano discs were on the low side but not on the limit. I wonder if fresh pads and discs would've been enough extra mass to avoid the issue or is it just too much to ask. Calipers are trp-c mechanical ones which might also play a role with the heat dissipation? Either way a bit scary...
@Peak Torque: back to Shimano discs? I'm pretty annoyed with my Ice Tech Rotors bending, especially with bags on the bike. Had zero problems with my cheap 105s and never had rubbing rotors. Thought about swapping to campi, what was your verdict on these?
Cool product + discussion. You need a report on rotor life with this conversion. The 160mm was a fast-wearing consumable for you, if the 180 will last more, there might be a "pays for itself in X seasons / YMMV" argument. AFAIK, BMC URS is the "other" Gravel bike that also comes with a 180 Front Rotor, at least in the carbon frame versions. I definitely don't "need" it for my gravel bike, but I'd also definitely like one, cause...pimp. And 190lbs/87kg kitted =)
Gotta love more options, it's one of the reasons why i stuck with my post mount brakes on my commuter, might not be the tidiest looking setup but easy rotor size conversion, running 180/203mm. Kinda sucks that all road groupsets usually don't offer post mount brakes.
Just thought of this, but I recall Merida was using a heat sink that was mounted between the caliper and the rotor. I wonder if the heat sink takes up room and “forces” them to move to a 180 mm rotor. Obviously adding a heat sink and increasing the rotor size would be a win win toward the intended goal.
Very cool stuff. I wish bike industry went will large rotor options like you said. Unless you want aero gains, really no reason to not use 180mm rotor on all road bikes.
You said longer pad life. I'm just really curious about the physics of that. The moment is greater, so you need less clamping force, but the rotor is travelling more quickly, which I would have thought would counteract that - ultimately you're still dealing with the same amount of energy. I can certainly see the rotors would last longer as they're bigger and there's just more material to grind. The only way I can think the pads would last longer is if they just work more efficiently because the temperature of the rotor (and the pads too) is reduced. But I'm not a trained physicist, so I expect I'm missing something?
From the study we did in FSAE (going back some years now) the longer life came from reduction in pad and disc surface temps. You are correct the energy conversion is completely analogous.
Don't pads also wear more quickly under high loads? To achieve the same power, you can do low speed+high force or high speed+low force. I would imagine that the high force option has a greater chance of taking chunks out of the pad. Basically, I'm talking about load sensitivity and shear resistance.
Pad life is significantly reduced above a certain temperature (varies for every pad type). So if you can decrease the pad temperature below that threshold value, pad life will increase a lot.
Can't you use a standard rear flat mount adapter on top of the front adapter? I know it isn't a perfect conversion but it's close enough (0.1mm or so off iirc?).
Not sure if you've mentioned this, but not all forks will be wide enough to accommodate a 180mm rotor, and if it's a super tigjt fit then I'd personally be nervous about the rotor going slightly out of alignment and then eating into the fork
Shimano seem to have a lot of options for 180mm centre lock rotors. Any recommendations on best durability/ performance options from Shimano? I'm not fussed on IceTech one way or the other
I totally agree that today's road disc brakes (front) especially are woefully inadequate for any kind of serious use (eg. Alps). I'm 65kgs riding a 6kg bike, with descent KOMs and I have all sorts of issues. How anyone heavy, descending on the brakes copes is beyond me. The temperatures generated on a hot day are insane. So yes to a 180mm disc on the front, perhaps even with water cooling?! (Fork leg is the reservoir - check out my recent vid!!)
My Defy is a 2015 disc bike which came with mtb type cup and cone caliper mounts which I think are better than flat mounts with more adjustment . I all have run a Hope 4 piston front caliper for 3 years with 160mm disc with all the braking I will ever need as I am not good down steep down hills due to speed wobble in the passed.
Mate, I’m just wondering , would it not be better to design an adapter that replace the existing adapter altogether ? I’m not an engineer but I seem to remember you said in a previous video that it’s a good practice to reduce the number of interfaces between components
Keeping the original plate and its slotted holes makes aligning the caliper as simple as before. It is nice to keep that interface to make adjusting the caliper simple. Also, it makes switching back to 160mm easy. In general though you are right!
PS the first prototype was like that, but there was so little room for adjustment if it was done like that. To keep the perfectly radial position and tangential sweep of the pad to disc interface, making it in 2 parts was much easier.
I have the option to buy another bike both have the rim and disc brake options. Leaning towards the rimbrake because my disc brake road bikes requires a lot of maintenance and cost is high. Is Rim brake still worth it? Its a Factor o2 VAM btw.
This is excellent. I’m bummed my hope calipers won’t work with this as the way that the hose exits the caliper and enters the frame is already tight. I may go ahead and swap back to my 9200 calipers and try this out if it looks like it will be more accommodative. Any reason not to make the adapter one piece instead of making use of the shimano wedge?
@@PeakTorque If you made a true one-piece adapter, you wouldn't need to fiddle with short screws: caliper would sit lower on the fork and way further off the mounting plane.
@@PeakTorque Ah, that makes sense, especially given the variance from frame to frame. I’d say it may be wise to encourage people to have their brake mounts faced, however, most shops don’t have the correct tools or knowledge to perform that on a carbon frame properly.
I didn't read every comment but why double up on the adapters? Just make a piece solid unit, it may give you a bit more hardware clearance. Love the concept!
Yeah, you might be wrong with your suggestion on the gravel bike ridingstyle, some people ride hard and fast, whatever the bike…also dońt forget the additional weight when bike packing. I watch this vid for another reason. I run mech disc brakes. Had to save money, thought it was good for traveling and thought the newest gerenation would be fine. Setup is TRP Spire C with Rival Levers. The hard curve in the handlebar didńt help the friction.Very bad braking in the beginning until greasing the hoeses an using organic pads. Thats why I imidiatly searched for a 180mm conversion kit. Guess it makes a lot of sense for mech disc users. I think it might even help dosing the brakes as less force is needed. Actually i am still searching the point of engagement :)
Moved to a new city with massive hills - as well as an 11-34 cassette, have bumped the rear rotor to 160 from 140 just for thermal management. Brake fade is scary…
Couple of my bikes are flat mount to 160mm post, then a 160mm post to 180mm post adaptor to fit a 180mm rotor. (hack/bodge??) Never had any problems, although I could lock the front on 160mm or 180mm with enough lever force never really comes to that, find 180mm is a lot more in my sweet spot stopping, with a 4pot magura (115kg system weight) Your going over the bars before you overload your fork as far as I'm concerned
FWIW, just bought a new Merida gravel bike, and it's set up for 160/180mm rotors, noice... But, as a fatty, I'll certainly look at these for the roadie
i have seen some significant variation between different wheels with the lateral position of centrelock discs. might be worth having people check that with the larger rotor. can cause some interference with the top of the rotor as the fork legs bow in. Easily solved by lapping the back of the centrelock disc or the adapter if people are prepared to do it!
Easy fix though! Just file out the fork leg more so the rotor fits and doesnt rub under power stomps. Less material on the fork means less weight and more aero. Dentists dont mind either.
I think the greater breaking power is not a problem for the Fork/Frame Only the maximum breaking power is greater and the most roadbikes can't even get to that point because of the traction of the tire
it is not the diameter that is the issue, I ride on streets/gravel with a 203mm dual piston xt disc brakes but they still will overheat and glaze up the pads. the rotor needs simply be wider or rather thicker, it is basically razor thin at this point in time and that is the issue for me. My old xt v-brakes on ceramic coated rims is actually far better braking solution than current gen discbrakes.
On my road bike, i never needed more breaking power than the ultegra 6800 160mm provided me. However on my gravelbike (force axs), i regularly need more power, than what is available to me. I weigh 75 kg + 10 kg for the bike and 4 kg in gear. The gnarly trails and massive traction (compared to skinny tires) of my WTB Raddlers demand immensly more power. For this reason, i will convert to RX4+ and 180/160.
Why not use the mount shimano makes for this?! 180 Pretty good combo for bikepacking as I only weigh 75kg. Idk about the torx. Work as technician and torx seem to be easy to strip. think its more so the tools are much harder than the bolts
Shimano doesn't make a 140/160 (road standard) to 180 adapter. They only make a 160 native (gravel) to 180 adapter. If they did of course i wouldn't have developed one, that would be a waste of time.
Bigger is better. I dont get why my rental Giant Defy. In size XL, in the south of spain, with climbing gears, had 160F/140R discs 🤷 Previous renter had made those discs nice and blue
Okay so the proposed solution to brake fade is to increase the rotor size. Brake torque per pad pressure on the rotor is decreased for the equivalent torque on a smaller rotor, hence less heat on the pad so less brake fade. Peak heat has decreased as well. I feel like if we extended this train of thought you would eventually end up with rim brakes, no?
Not really. The rim has other jobs to do that compromise it's ability to act as a braking surface - more mass to act as a wear surface where it really isn't needed around the entire circumference, cannot engineer in aero, cannot clamp it as hard since it needs to be light, hollow to support the tyre. Let the rim be a rim, and concentrate braking on a device that can be engineered to optimise that function in isolation.
Not really, as the rear brake can ultimately do less as the rear wheel will lose traction as the weight shifts to the front wheel at maximum braking. Once the wheel is locked the braking force is at it’s limit.
I would also guess that the "thermal ceiling" is less crucial on the rear brake because there's a larger amount of fluid, so it would take longer for it to boil over and go spongy on you.
Unfortunately my adhx fork won’t accommodate bigger discs than 160mm. Anything bigger and it will start cutting in the carbon.. Had the 180mm discs before receiving the frameset… bummer.. On the flats the 160’s are absolutely fine, but as a taller/heavier rider i would have preferred the 180 rotor for in the mountains..
I did it and one thing I can say is that if you have open dropouts it's easy to get the wheel out of the dropouts if you are too grabby on the brakes. A thru axle fork would be just fine imo. The flex when heavy braking could break aluminum from fatigue in the long run but other than that, meh.
Some gravel bikes support 180 / 160. You mentioned that gravel bikes are slower so don't benefit so much from bigger rotors, but you forgot the added weight from stuff like bikepacking.
not the mention gravel bikers' beer bellies
Good luck to you and everyone that can benefit. I'm too light and too slow for such tech solutions.
Looking forward to future upgrades.
I put a 180mm front disc on my Open UP, using it with the Hope RX4+ so no adapter needed. It gives a massive amount of braking power, tons of modulation as well. Super happy with it so far.
The joy this video brings me is immense.
Its a good option to have. Especially for heavier riders or for people who ride with lots of bikepacking gear.
Mohorič used the Merida Scultura in MSR because it has a standard round seat tube for the dropper post.
But he took the fork from the Reacto! You can see if you research it. The scultura wont fork wont fit 180.
Damn, good spot then!
Bigus Discus
thank you! I've had a 180mm disc sitting on my shelf for months waiting for a mounting solution
Very nice. When I need to replace my rotors I will be getting one of these.
Thanks for the tips. I have been thinking about this set up for so long on my TT bike. Especially on a TT bike on a full aero disc rear wheel setup.
thank you for doing this, I will look into it next time I change my rotors / pads ... I was actually already thinking about adapting some MTB mounts for this
Thumbs up, purely for the selection of fasteners.
Now work on the other side of the equation. I recommend Wera L wrenchs. By far the nicest set of hex and torx wrenches I have ever laid my hands on.
Happy to see some others people starting to run 180s - swapped about a year ago now and haven't looked back.
I have a Canyon Grail e-gravel bike and it needed a brake upgrade! I converted rotors from 160mm to 1800mm front and rear, thicker rotors, sintered brake pads, (1. organic, 2. semi metallic, 3. sintered or blocks of steel!!). It now stops vs. quickly coming to a stop.
I think this is great one engineer to another. Recently experienced a crash on a steep descent in the Yorkshire dales which has left me with a broken collarbone. When looking at my bike after the incident, my 160mm front Sram rotor has significantly changed colour due to the overheating. Maybe a bigger disc would have reduced this and allowed me to scrub off enough speed to avoid the crash.
Or maybe just sticking to a well proven solution - clinchers would have prevented it?
My Ghost 7500 Cross from 2011 came with Shimano 445 Disc 180 mm Hydraulic Brakes, they work perfectly.
I just changed from 160 to 180 on my giant toughroad, and it feels much better, I've already ordered the rear kit. Hopefully the fork will handle it on the long run.
Cool project… thinking of getting this for my gravel bike. 2 questions: caliper/rotor adjustments will be made with factory 160mm bolt/plate and not from your adapter? And do you have a rear brake version?
Love it, great work again PT!
Imagine if you had 700c sized discs and you applied the brake to the outer surface of that larger disc.
I think you are really onto something. Let's hope the bike industry backs this idea. Sounds like less maintenance too
They tried that but they found that tyres were getting so hot the tubes were blowing the tyres of the rim in carbon versions.
Lol the circle of life
@@glennoc8585 mythological
That’s a great idea. Just a few small issues might pop up:
- width of tire limited
- no use of hookless
- temperature issues with latex tubes
- worn brake tracks are a pain to swap
- poor wet performance
Check out the front brake design on the “Buell Lightning”
It’s basically a rim brake :)
Why do you think motorcycle manufacturers --- with much better engineers --- choose not to use the Zero Torsional Load (ZTL) brake design?
I use my brakes a lot more and for longer periods on my gravel bike than on the road, but I routinely do 800+m descents that are technical enough to require near constant braking. It has 180/160, which I've been happy with that.
Exactly. On gravel you are moving slowly enough that there is no aero drag, so you're putting 100% of the descent energy into the discs. My gravel bike has a lot more brake fade on gravel descents than road descents.
I was literally just considering doing this for my gravel bike the other day to help manage heat on descents. Gravel races around me have a lot of descents that you'll be going 80kmh off and on the brakes hoping it doesn't fade by the end of the hill.
Check if your fork will allow for it… before it snaps off
Wow very nice adapter! I do not ride road disc bikes,but I had the same brake mounted in various bikes/rotor size combos and 160mm rotors had more pad wear than bigger 180 or 203 mm,it is totally true. Yo need more time on the brakes with the small rotors to do the same job or pull harder the lever. My dirt jump bike wear very fast the pads,only 160mm rear brake to stop the bike,never had a problem with the small disc but I see why many riders would choose a bigger disc.
I have been waiting for this video! Thanks!!!!
That is a really nice invention and one that really makes a lot of sense, unlike some other inventions like hookless rims and hidden cables. Thanks for your contribution to the cycling community and I wish you some good success. Just have to ask, what centerlock rotor would be your choice for use on a road bike?
Here I am using XT. Merida use XT or XTR. In reality the holes are quite big so next time I would find something with smaller holes to be kinder on the smaller road pad.
@@PeakTorque I ordered one of your adapters because I like the idea also can never have enough adapters. And I ordered a Shimano SM-RT900 XTR/Dura-Ace 180mm rotor. Another question I have is pad material. Resin vs metallic. Metallic should also be better right, even if it is more noisy I understand it has more stopping power. Or do you think that those pads would be to harsh and aggressive on the Shimano rotors?
Whats wrong with hookless?
@@smin4089 🤣 That was funny.
@@PeakTorque 160 are enough 140 trash 180 too much
I was looking at 180mm options when I got my new road bike last year but couldn’t find anything suitable. Have ended up with spare 160mm discs now so it’s unlikely I’m going to change. 160 seems fine, have had some squealing on fast descents but hadn’t realised the bike came with resin pads rather than the sintered ones I’m used to
I'm 80kgs, ran 140mm front and rear on a Cannondale. No issues, brakes were fantastic. Now run 160/160 and brakes are fantastic. No issues with warping braking down from 45mph to 15mph. Can't see the need, never felt there was a thermal problem. For me 160/140 is the perfect combo. 4 different bikes 2 were shimano 2 SRAM.
All depends on where you ride. If you 500m of descent at 15%+ on twisty corners the whole way, even 180mm on a mountain bike will struggle.
This is great. Gonna buy it soon for sure. Curious though why not just make it 1 piece and complete ditch the whole 140/160 adapter?
Very tempting to do one of these conversions. Good to know that braking into a steep hairpin won't turn my fork into an origami crane with 180s too, which would have been my main concern
Haven't seen many forks break, not that it cannot be an issue. I would be more worried about super-light, low-spoke-count front rims tho, see those collapse in more than one occasion under really hard riding.
I got my fork made with the flat mount 180 spacing (which is printed on the side of the stock shimano adapter you have in the video)
I think it's a better idea, marginal difference in weight or aerodynamics vs 160mm, probably see more road forks made that way
That's a great idea!, living in the North Lake District with our 25% Road climbing and descending, I'd buy them.👍
Have you considered thicker rotors a go for increased thermal dissipation and warping reduction (e.g. SRAM HS2 rotors at 2.00mm thick)? Not 100% if Shimano calipers can clear the +0.15mm in rotor thickness but SRAM HRD calipers certainly can even with new pads.
Great explanation. It ain't about the ability to lock the wheels. Heck I can lock the wheels with my shoe on the wheel. It's about how the braking feels and braking confidence. I have 203mm on 4 piston calipers on my mtb and the confidence I have vs my road bike is tremendous. Obviously overkill but having more rotor and larger pads is incredibly nice to have.
I agree that modulation is key. I also have 203mm rotors F/R with 4-piston Shimano brakes on my trail bike, and I find the modulation "addictive", and overheating hasn't been an issue so far. My BIL's trail HT that came with MT400 class 2-piston brakes and the typ. "resin only" rotors and pads, have zero issues locking either wheel but consistency suffers as the rotor gets hotter and hotter, and modulation @ the edge of locking up is worse throughout.
FWIW, I don't think that there is much concern about increased forces on the forks.
The peak torque (heh!) about the spindle is still limited by the tyre grip, so assuming that the brake could be locked before, that remains unchanged.
At this limit point the force at the brake pads it reduced, and the bending moment on the bottom of the fork leg is exactly the same.
There is (maybe?) a different balance between the forces on the two mounting points. If you consider a very large adaptor then you could see the force at the bottom mount become a tension force, and the force at the top mount then becomes larger. I don't think that you have gone far enough for this to be a real issue.
I wouldn't take the risk on these weak road forks. When was the last time you locked up the front brake at high speeds? My forks broke on 32mm tires, 160mm rotors. I've switched to 140mm now and gravel forks. Be careful.
@chrisfroome might want to see if these will help your brake issues
Think you have a dead pixel on your camera sensor btw, awesome upgrade makes a lot of sense!
think you are correct there!
Nicely done!
Love your channel bro.... As a long time mountain biker xc and long back trail rides.... Why do road riders not use MtB disks and hubs... Surely the light weight XC hubs and brakes would be a good choice
Just came from a multiday gravel /bikepacking trip where both of my brakes failed within few km of each other. Pad just came off / cracked in half. Bike was loaded with extra 15kg and I assume it happened during a rough steep mtb section dragging the brakes for a longer time. The pads and 160mm shimano discs were on the low side but not on the limit. I wonder if fresh pads and discs would've been enough extra mass to avoid the issue or is it just too much to ask. Calipers are trp-c mechanical ones which might also play a role with the heat dissipation? Either way a bit scary...
Good work, nice mod! 👍💯
Cheers mate. Seems to be working great, less noise, less noise and definitely less piston creep after a really long downhill
I do need extra power for my gravel since the very first day!. 87 kgs and sram force 1.
@Peak Torque: back to Shimano discs? I'm pretty annoyed with my Ice Tech Rotors bending, especially with bags on the bike. Had zero problems with my cheap 105s and never had rubbing rotors. Thought about swapping to campi, what was your verdict on these?
Cool product + discussion.
You need a report on rotor life with this conversion. The 160mm was a fast-wearing consumable for you, if the 180 will last more, there might be a "pays for itself in X seasons / YMMV" argument.
AFAIK, BMC URS is the "other" Gravel bike that also comes with a 180 Front Rotor, at least in the carbon frame versions.
I definitely don't "need" it for my gravel bike, but I'd also definitely like one, cause...pimp. And 190lbs/87kg kitted =)
Gotta love more options, it's one of the reasons why i stuck with my post mount brakes on my commuter, might not be the tidiest looking setup but easy rotor size conversion, running 180/203mm. Kinda sucks that all road groupsets usually don't offer post mount brakes.
you could go shigura....
xt postmount brakes are pretty much compatible with shimano road levers.
Oh I'm broke and still on mechanical TRP spyres. If I end up on a frame with flat mount I'll probably just grab a PM on FM adapter
Just thought of this, but I recall Merida was using a heat sink that was mounted between the caliper and the rotor. I wonder if the heat sink takes up room and “forces” them to move to a 180 mm rotor. Obviously adding a heat sink and increasing the rotor size would be a win win toward the intended goal.
Just did some further research, their heatsink is designed into the fork. Scratch all that. 180 mm was an intended modification.
Very cool stuff. I wish bike industry went will large rotor options like you said. Unless you want aero gains, really no reason to not use 180mm rotor on all road bikes.
Great idea. Would this fit on a 2020 Trek Domane?
You said longer pad life. I'm just really curious about the physics of that. The moment is greater, so you need less clamping force, but the rotor is travelling more quickly, which I would have thought would counteract that - ultimately you're still dealing with the same amount of energy. I can certainly see the rotors would last longer as they're bigger and there's just more material to grind. The only way I can think the pads would last longer is if they just work more efficiently because the temperature of the rotor (and the pads too) is reduced. But I'm not a trained physicist, so I expect I'm missing something?
From the study we did in FSAE (going back some years now) the longer life came from reduction in pad and disc surface temps. You are correct the energy conversion is completely analogous.
The difference in rotor speed is negligible compared to the leverage gained.
@@cup_and_cone no, it's proportional.
Don't pads also wear more quickly under high loads? To achieve the same power, you can do low speed+high force or high speed+low force. I would imagine that the high force option has a greater chance of taking chunks out of the pad.
Basically, I'm talking about load sensitivity and shear resistance.
Pad life is significantly reduced above a certain temperature (varies for every pad type). So if you can decrease the pad temperature below that threshold value, pad life will increase a lot.
Can't you use a standard rear flat mount adapter on top of the front adapter? I know it isn't a perfect conversion but it's close enough (0.1mm or so off iirc?).
Not sure if you've mentioned this, but not all forks will be wide enough to accommodate a 180mm rotor, and if it's a super tigjt fit then I'd personally be nervous about the rotor going slightly out of alignment and then eating into the fork
Good point I'll add it
Hi you never did come back with a review for the Campagnolo rotors, are they better than the shimano rotors or not
Thank you for enlightening videos
Shimano seem to have a lot of options for 180mm centre lock rotors. Any recommendations on best durability/ performance options from Shimano? I'm not fussed on IceTech one way or the other
any thoughts on getting this to work on the Open "U-Turn" Fork with it's unique mounting style?
Really good video, really well thought out and made product. top work!
I totally agree that today's road disc brakes (front) especially are woefully inadequate for any kind of serious use (eg. Alps). I'm 65kgs riding a 6kg bike, with descent KOMs and I have all sorts of issues. How anyone heavy, descending on the brakes copes is beyond me. The temperatures generated on a hot day are insane.
So yes to a 180mm disc on the front, perhaps even with water cooling?! (Fork leg is the reservoir - check out my recent vid!!)
I was in Mallorca last week! Unfortunately no time, nor legs, to get to Palma tho
Oh no!! Next time!
got a Decathlon Van Rysel that came with a 160 rotor and the swap is 180 and to my annoyance, it came with m5 torx
My Defy is a 2015 disc bike which came with mtb type cup and cone caliper mounts which I think are better than flat mounts with more adjustment . I all have run a Hope 4 piston front caliper for 3 years with 160mm disc with all the braking I will ever need as I am not good down steep down hills due to speed wobble in the passed.
Cup and Cone is a type of bearing. I think you mean post mount brakes? 🤔
If heat dissipation is an issue, I wonder why aftermarket suppliers do not offer disc braking upgraded with copper or the like
Mate, I’m just wondering , would it not be better to design an adapter that replace the existing adapter altogether ? I’m not an engineer but I seem to remember you said in a previous video that it’s a good practice to reduce the number of interfaces between components
Keeping the original plate and its slotted holes makes aligning the caliper as simple as before. It is nice to keep that interface to make adjusting the caliper simple. Also, it makes switching back to 160mm easy. In general though you are right!
PS the first prototype was like that, but there was so little room for adjustment if it was done like that. To keep the perfectly radial position and tangential sweep of the pad to disc interface, making it in 2 parts was much easier.
Hahaha I see, thanks for the explanation, really learning a lot from your vids
I have the option to buy another bike both have the rim and disc brake options. Leaning towards the rimbrake because my disc brake road bikes requires a lot of maintenance and cost is high. Is Rim brake still worth it? Its a Factor o2 VAM btw.
Absolutely, I have a rim brake Pinarello F8 it’s a-ma-zi-ng. No bullshit, no disc rubbing, lighter,…
Nice product. Though I'm not sure if you should clamp your frame on the top tube. Also, there is a dead pixel in the middle of your shot
Its not clamped of course
Hi! Are you thinking of doing a adapter for SRAM Groupsets? (SRAM Rival, Force, Red)
This is excellent. I’m bummed my hope calipers won’t work with this as the way that the hose exits the caliper and enters the frame is already tight. I may go ahead and swap back to my 9200 calipers and try this out if it looks like it will be more accommodative.
Any reason not to make the adapter one piece instead of making use of the shimano wedge?
Leaving it as a 2 piece part 2 help neatly fine tune the caliper alignment. I wanted the bit that connected to the fork not to have slotted holes.
@@PeakTorque If you made a true one-piece adapter, you wouldn't need to fiddle with short screws: caliper would sit lower on the fork and way further off the mounting plane.
@@PeakTorque Ah, that makes sense, especially given the variance from frame to frame. I’d say it may be wise to encourage people to have their brake mounts faced, however, most shops don’t have the correct tools or knowledge to perform that on a carbon frame properly.
@@PeakTorque So is the slotted adjustment now on the caliper to mount?
Checked out your shop! If you design a neat logo and put that on some cycling merchandise (hats, socks, stickers, etc.), I'd buy them!
It Changed My Life :)
Mohoric was riding the scultura in MSR because he was also using a dropper which requires a round seat-tube
but he took the fork off the Reacto which fits 180mm discs...Look closely
I didn't read every comment but why double up on the adapters? Just make a piece solid unit, it may give you a bit more hardware clearance. Love the concept!
Yeah, you might be wrong with your suggestion on the gravel bike ridingstyle, some people ride hard and fast, whatever the bike…also dońt forget the additional weight when bike packing. I watch this vid for another reason. I run mech disc brakes. Had to save money, thought it was good for traveling and thought the newest gerenation would be fine. Setup is TRP Spire C with Rival Levers. The hard curve in the handlebar didńt help the friction.Very bad braking in the beginning until greasing the hoeses an using organic pads. Thats why I imidiatly searched for a 180mm conversion kit. Guess it makes a lot of sense for mech disc users. I think it might even help dosing the brakes as less force is needed. Actually i am still searching the point of engagement :)
Moved to a new city with massive hills - as well as an 11-34 cassette, have bumped the rear rotor to 160 from 140 just for thermal management. Brake fade is scary…
Yeah first time I ever encountered my first mountain I smoked the disk brakes on a department store mtb on the descent. Was pretty scary.
Is this heat disappearing problem just a Shimano problem due to their composite disc construction?
Couple of my bikes are flat mount to 160mm post, then a 160mm post to 180mm post adaptor to fit a 180mm rotor. (hack/bodge??)
Never had any problems, although I could lock the front on 160mm or 180mm with enough lever force never really comes to that, find 180mm is a lot more in my sweet spot stopping, with a 4pot magura (115kg system weight)
Your going over the bars before you overload your fork as far as I'm concerned
Had heat isues on several climbs, so i guess i will get these and as a side effect It will be easier to brake on hoods, nice :)
FWIW, just bought a new Merida gravel bike, and it's set up for 160/180mm rotors, noice...
But, as a fatty, I'll certainly look at these for the roadie
Durianrider would definately approve of this. 😎
Might be a dumb question.. but does it work on the rear too?
i have seen some significant variation between different wheels with the lateral position of centrelock discs. might be worth having people check that with the larger rotor. can cause some interference with the top of the rotor as the fork legs bow in. Easily solved by lapping the back of the centrelock disc or the adapter if people are prepared to do it!
Good point. I cant believe how hubs can be so different, they clearly don't adhere to a standard!
Easy fix though! Just file out the fork leg more so the rotor fits and doesnt rub under power stomps. Less material on the fork means less weight and more aero.
Dentists dont mind either.
What is the brand of your shades??!
I think the greater breaking power is not a problem for the Fork/Frame
Only the maximum breaking power is greater and the most roadbikes can't even get to that point because of the traction of the tire
had a look at my merida scultura 400, it comes by default 160/180mm option 😯
Are you dragging your brakes?
damn, i did not know that mohoric had a big disc on his bike for that. everyone was talking about the dropper!
I'm a 110 kg former rower and warped my front disc on a descent the other day. I think this would work really well for me. Great idea 👍
I'm a former rower, you'll soon lose that 10kg of muscle being a cyclist!
it is not the diameter that is the issue, I ride on streets/gravel with a 203mm dual piston xt disc brakes but they still will overheat and glaze up the pads. the rotor needs simply be wider or rather thicker, it is basically razor thin at this point in time and that is the issue for me. My old xt v-brakes on ceramic coated rims is actually far better braking solution than current gen discbrakes.
On my road bike, i never needed more breaking power than the ultegra 6800 160mm provided me. However on my gravelbike (force axs), i regularly need more power, than what is available to me. I weigh 75 kg + 10 kg for the bike and 4 kg in gear. The gnarly trails and massive traction (compared to skinny tires) of my WTB Raddlers demand immensly more power. For this reason, i will convert to RX4+ and 180/160.
Why not use the mount shimano makes for this?! 180 Pretty good combo for bikepacking as I only weigh 75kg. Idk about the torx. Work as technician and torx seem to be easy to strip. think its more so the tools are much harder than the bolts
Shimano doesn't make a 140/160 (road standard) to 180 adapter. They only make a 160 native (gravel) to 180 adapter. If they did of course i wouldn't have developed one, that would be a waste of time.
Anyone knows wheater trek domane (2021) fits 180 in the back? By default it has the ability to mount 180mm in the front
Bigger is better. I dont get why my rental Giant Defy. In size XL, in the south of spain, with climbing gears, had 160F/140R discs 🤷
Previous renter had made those discs nice and blue
160/140 is enough, just the braking management and technique
Can you do it to the propel?
Okay so the proposed solution to brake fade is to increase the rotor size. Brake torque per pad pressure on the rotor is decreased for the equivalent torque on a smaller rotor, hence less heat on the pad so less brake fade. Peak heat has decreased as well.
I feel like if we extended this train of thought you would eventually end up with rim brakes, no?
Not really. The rim has other jobs to do that compromise it's ability to act as a braking surface - more mass to act as a wear surface where it really isn't needed around the entire circumference, cannot engineer in aero, cannot clamp it as hard since it needs to be light, hollow to support the tyre. Let the rim be a rim, and concentrate braking on a device that can be engineered to optimise that function in isolation.
torque is decreased, speed increased, total power stays the same. Dissipation of that power increases though through bigger heat mass
@@feedbackzaloop Oh, and they suck in the wet.
@@WeirdNeville who they? 180mm rotors? I was merely commenting on the premise, not conclusion
Surely this is why rim will always be better for heat dissipation the brake track is massive by comparison
Yes, as long as its not made of carbon
This is great. Is there any benefit to going larger in the rear? I realize the rear brake does less, but curious if the same logic applies.
Not really, as the rear brake can ultimately do less as the rear wheel will lose traction as the weight shifts to the front wheel at maximum braking. Once the wheel is locked the braking force is at it’s limit.
I would also guess that the "thermal ceiling" is less crucial on the rear brake because there's a larger amount of fluid, so it would take longer for it to boil over and go spongy on you.
@@ktakashismith TBH you won't boil the fluid regardless.
Rear one is one the way. Much less convective cooling on the rear due to much disturbed and reduced airflow.
@@waynosfotos This is braking on long descents, so larger rear could make sense and be safer. If you don't lock up the wheel.
Unfortunately my adhx fork won’t accommodate bigger discs than 160mm. Anything bigger and it will start cutting in the carbon.. Had the 180mm discs before receiving the frameset… bummer.. On the flats the 160’s are absolutely fine, but as a taller/heavier rider i would have preferred the 180 rotor for in the mountains..
I did it and one thing I can say is that if you have open dropouts it's easy to get the wheel out of the dropouts if you are too grabby on the brakes.
A thru axle fork would be just fine imo. The flex when heavy braking could break aluminum from fatigue in the long run but other than that, meh.
got 160/160 at around 65kg ... no reason to go lower but thankfully bike usually can do 160/140-160 easy
Next big tech in cycling is nickel covered copper heat pipes. Everyone needs those.
I’m going quad piston XTR calipers and 160mm discs on my CX/Gravel bike.
Imma full send it down the hill and then clutch the kraken.
We need hambini to tell us the aero penalty when jumping from 160mm to 180mm
and the opinion from Durian Rider, because with 180mm the braking is closer to the rim
This makes sense 👍🏻
I put a 180mm on my ebike and I locked the front wheel a couple of times but managed to save it from skidding out. Went back to 160mm lol