Troubleshooting a 1200 Second Per Day Loss
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- čas přidán 9. 07. 2024
- Today we are going to troubleshoot a Waltham grade 625 that loses an incredible 1200 seconds per day.
Thanks for watching!
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Alex just "sprung" some advanced stuff on us.
Just in the nick of “time”.
Not that complicated once you know right?
@@watchrepairtutorials Every little bit of extra knowledge makes me better.
@@bolgerguide that’s right sir. Never stop learning.
One thing is reading about such topics in a book, however seeing you do it with such a super explanation is a thousand times better.
I find most of the old books really hard to read and even harder to understand. I agree, seeing it done makes it way easier to understand.
For a kinetic learner as opposed to a theory learner, your explanations and videos are invaluable.....thank you so much!.
You are welcome Phillip. I think to a certain respect, that to really learn any of this stuff you have to be hands on and practice it.
The most exquisite thing is that generation after generation, your knowledge's pulse beats nonstop on CZcams! God bless you, Alex!
Long after I'm gone there should be a pretty good library of video's out there. 👌
Fantastic video, thank you, Alex!
Thus far on CZcams I’ve never before seen any insight beyond hairspring too long = slow rate, hairspring too short = fast rate and occasionally the suggestion to repin the hairspring to the stud to shorten it and increase the rate, usually with no reference to terminal curves in flat springs, let along how to deal with watches with a Breguet overcoil.
Even the books commonly recommended have little or nothing to say beyond the above.
It wasn’t until I got my hands on a copy of Jendritzki’s great book, “Watch Adjustment” that I could learn about this properly.
Once aware of these subtleties, it opened up a whole area of knowledge pertaining to inner curves as the spring leaves the collet, overcoils, terminal curves and all the fine adjustments they make possible.
This video is an awesome introduction, the tip of the iceberg in terms of the techniques of a fine reguleur from days gone by.
It is disappointing how many practicing ‘professional’ watchmakers these days are unaware of this stuff at least where I live.
Thank you and where do you live?
@@watchrepairtutorials Melbourne, Australia. Certainly some great and knowledgeable watchmakers here, but knowledge regarding positional adjustment and things like hairspring curves and their effects upon timekeeping are lacking from all but the best few who are still working.
@@mercuriall2810 the vast majors majority of new watchmakers touch on these things in school and sometimes will even make a balance like this but unless they at at a specialty company, don’t spend much time on this stuff. It’s not where the industry is headed.
@@watchrepairtutorials I totally agree with you that this isn’t where the industry has headed. Replaceable/throwaway modules and part swapping seems to be the direction for the bulk of the industry.
There seem to be very few people left here who understand enough to troubleshoot a watch based upon an understanding of how it works, let alone a thorough understanding of how and why a watch works as it does.
Even in higher end brands like Cartier, the in house watchmakers are clueless here.
They can’t even recognise a very obvious and poor quality fake of their own product, riddled with huge tells that it’s a fake. (I do realise some quartz crisis era Cartier watches were verging on crude for Cartier’s standards and hard to authenticate, the watch in question left no room for doubt at a quick glance!)
Cartier Melbourne HQ staff had to show it to their watchmaker. He advised that it would be sent to Sydney because he wasn’t sure, Sydney advised it may have to go to Switzerland but after 2 weeks Cartier Sydney recognised it as a fake. Perhaps they sent pictures to Switzerland.
It was a cheap blinged up quartz Cartier Francaise copy.
This watch had glued in fake diamonds on either side of the rectangular crystal. One had fallen out, revealing stones were glued in, not in prophet settings.
The Cartier secret signature on the dial was totally wrong.
The case back was poorly fitting and held by cheap Phillips head screws.
It had the reference numbers for two totally different Cartier watches stamped into the outer side of the caseback.
One of the two slotted screws holding the bracelet on had its slot so far off centre it wouldn’t pass QC at most low end Chinese copy watch factories.
I never had a chance to see the movement but Cartier had permission to open the watch and undoubtedly did see the movement too. There’s no way it had any calibre Cartier use inside.
That’s quite disappointing.
Alex. As you’re probably aware this is an exceptional video. Thank you very much.
One day when you run into this issue, you will say to yourself, I know how to figure that out. 🤘
Another Excellent tutorial!! I am so glad that I found this channel and am a patreon. I have learned so much from your watch repair course. The knowledge and skills I am learning are priceless
and well worth the membership. Thank You
Awesome! Thank you Bob. There is a lot of interesting topic coming up. Right now I am working on how to use a timegrapher. I mean really use it. I think it's going to blow a lot of minds.
In awe of this video. Thank you, Alex for another excellent lesson.
Glad you liked it. By your user name it sounds like you are living the dream.
@@watchrepairtutorials actually I appointed myself videographer for our recovery from hurricane Michael in 2018. I do dash cam videos periodically to document progress hence the name.
No wasted time on your vids Alex, just useful information. Completely helpful, thanks as always
No Jibber Jabber. Man these videos can be long enough as it is. 😂
Alex, I’ve come back to this video as I do all your vids when I get stuck. I understand that you were able to identify that the balance spring was incorrect, but how to determine the correct one? Working on a model 1857 keywind from 1872.
The formula for figuring out the correct size in in the video
This video is very good. I was going to ask about the hairspring chart, but it was in the description. It is great that you have all the tools that you use listed.
You know, one of the things about horology that keeps it interesting is that no matter how long you have been doing things, there is always more to learn.
Thank you so kindly.
Watchmakers secrets, brought to you by Alex. This is so interresting, even for non watchmakers. Love your content and the way you present it. Thank you.
That’s a nice compliment but be careful my friend if you find yourself browsing through thrift stores and flea markets looking for broken watches. Next thing you know, you’ll be ordering tiny screwdrivers. 😀
@@watchrepairtutorials I've already got them. 😁 Sooner or later it will happen and i'll buy a watch to "repair" it. Until now i change only batteries on all the watches from family and friends. But doing this very carefull without the slightest scratch is already very satisfying.
@@MichaelHeinrich1 perfect. 👍
Bro,
Holy smokes you are fantastic. I love detail. I really enjoy seeing your knowledge at work. Going to catch the next video.
I appreciate that brother man
This is fantastic! Thank you.
Oh my pleasure friend
This is amazing. Thank you!
You're so welcome Karl.
Great stuff, thank you!
My pleasure James.
Thank you Alex! 👍
My pleasure Tom, Good to hear from you as always.
just great great information about adjusting a watch. Soooo good that i found your channel.
I am glad you did my friend. What I do is not for everybody so I appreciate the people that get what I’m trying to do.
A great video . Thank you
My pleasure. Keep at it my friend
Great information Alex.
Thank you
My pleasure sir.
Thanks Alex! I learned a lot from this video.
Glad it was helpful John. Hope it helps one day.
Absolutely amazing video. Thank-you very much and this video answers many of my questions.
Glad it was helpful Bruno.
Very enlightening I have replaced wrong hairsprings but did not how to find the error Thanks Alex. The advanced course looks like a bargain !😃
Hey Amanda, one day when you need it it’ll be there. Thanks my friend
Fascinating! Thanks for the education.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you.
No worries! Thanks for letting me know.
An interesting video again with full of information in it. Excellent knowledge transfer. I really appreciate what you are doing Sir!
Much appreciated!
Great video Alex. This video will come in handy on a watch I'm currently working on. Thanks!
Great to hear! Let me know what you find out is the issue.
@@watchrepairtutorials will do Alex. Before I proceed in trying to reshape the hairspring, can you tell me what the "degrees" in the diagram represents? For instance, under the 95% ratio, it says 187°?
Nice new intro!! And great timing on your post for someone like me who’s just starting to learn about curves and overcoils. Could chipped pallet jewels also slow the rate much?
No, normally anything related to the pallet stone is either going to stop the watch altogether or disrupt the impulse to the balance, i.e. lower the amplitude and increase the rate.
Great video!
Thanks for the visit my friend.
How does it call this black balance wheel holder and where i can buy one?
Thank you for all your work and for bringing me closer to your huge watchmaker knowledge.
Bergeon 7990. Can also be found on Aliexpress as well for a lot less.
Where can I get a copy of the hairspring reference?
If you google it will come up. There are several different ones but they are all based on the same principle.
Thank you for another interesting video Alex, I have a question, what is the original size of these Chairspring Charts scheets, they print out huge 😬😬
Yeah, I mentioned in the video of the hardest parts reducing them down to the correct size. Everyone I’ve seen has been a full size like this.
This is what I would call “a teaser”.. you made me really really curious .. 😅
Teaser in a good way?
Thanks for the informative video, as usual. But, I had my PC volume set to max, and I could hardly hear you sometimes. Is there anything wrong with my desktop?
I just listened to it on my phone and it sounded fine.
Thanks for the video. Where to get Helwig chart?
If you google it should come up. There are a couple different ones but they are all based on the same formula.
What camera do you use for your close-up Alex?
Hey brother,
It’s in the description.
Good stuff as always! Can you tell me where to find that chart you used for hairspring shapes?
If you search for helwig hairspring chart, you’ll find it.
In the description now
Thanks, Alex, these are the kinds of videos I like. That is awesome information for me to check my Elgin 280 RR watch. I think I know what I'll find but sourcing a hairspring for a 280 Elgin will be tough. It's a rather scarce movement.
See...I have the same issue with an old 280 grade Elgin pocket watch only its 20 minutes per day FAST. I think someone put another balance spring on it that doesn't belong. It's not magnetized, and the spring is not stuck together. The spring actually looks pretty good, but it's too short making it run really fast and I have no leeway to lengthen it because it looks clipped off up to the stud. I've got it down to about half of what it was using some washers, but still have some to go and have not messed with it lately.
These old girls will keep you one your toes. I hope this video will give you some insight.
Great video, informative as always. I have a couple questions, What is the name of the diagrams that you were using to size up the hairsprings? When reattaching the hairspring to the balance cock you install it on the mainplate to secure the hairspring stud as you demonstrate but do you then take it off to turn the regulator boot back to the closed position?
The PDF for the diagrams are in the description. There is no regulator boot on this one. In the case of a ETAchron regulator I normally would yes.
With an etachron or any regulator with a boot, the only purpose of installing it on the on the mainsplate is to be able to install the HS stud. Then take it off and close the boot.
Thank you. Your videos are an excellent resource.
@@da___man appreciate ya man
Hi Alex, first time I've been able to comment since I typically watch your videos on a streaming device. I love the information on your channel, and I've learned so much I didn't realize I didn't know. Great information in every video, and a must watch for every self taught watchmaker. I am presently working on a Hamilton 987 movement with a Briguete over coil hsirspring, it is the correct spring but I believe the bends aren't correct. Could you give a link to the chart you used to check the spring in this video? Thank you for your years of experience you give us in every post.
Thanks Rick, Here is a link to the PDF I made, watchrepairtutorials.com/mp-files/hairspring-curve-tables.pdf/
It would be awesome to have a video on how to safely install the hairspring back into the balance cock. I took apart my first watch movement, and really had trouble with this. Looking online, there's almost zero resources on how to do this. I searched the forums, and came up with old posts that detailed about 10 different ways to do it. The one that worked best for me was what was shown here, but the main portion of the spring lined up directly under where it attaches to the balance cock, and I think I bent my hairspring trying to get it into position past the main body of the hairspring. I'm fairly certain the movement was a 1950s Cortebert, or something very similar. A video showing the easiest means to attach the various springs would be awesome!
I’ll see what I can do.
@@watchrepairtutorials That would be great! Hopefully it will bring in some views. There's no videos about it on CZcams.
@@k-ozdragon Probably not many views but that's not really why I make these types of videos.
@@watchrepairtutorials There's terrible videos that get tons of views because they're simply taking apart a Westclox, which most watchmakers won't even mess with. The dude in the video keeps picking it up by the balance wheel lol. If it's info people want, & it's not readily available, you'll definitely draw some interest. I'm sure a lot of people go to attach that part & find it's not so easy.
I appreciate all the content you've done. I'm just finishing up all your videos. They're extremely helpful. Not many solid tutorials out there that are to the point & filmed well. It's a solid resource, & you have been great at answering questions too. It's much appreciated.
Are all hairsprings standardized in some way? Doesn't material, thickness, and width of the spring matter also?
Material, thickness and width all make a big difference.
Different spring materials have different degrees of strength or springiness.
In terms of thickness and width, spring strength varies in proportion to the cube of the thickness. This is why just a tiny defect caused by a spot of rust can cause a comparatively large change in the rate of the watches oscillator.
Yes there are many variables in hairspring. These are non compensated springs while today’s are compensated. Weight of the spring is another major factor but you can figure that out.
I would love a video on how to replace the balance jewels in this exact movement. I'm having trouble finding a video that explains how to do it with this movement.
Good suggestion
If you’re already somewhat familiar with working on watches, here are some step by step instructions that should suffice.
First, let down any power on the watch. Not strictly necessary here, but it can’t hurt.
Now, loosen the screw holding the hairspring stud, and remove the balance cock, leaving the balance wheel in the movement.
Place the balance cock on a slice of pith wood or a bench block for support, taking care not to squash the regulator pins.
Remove the small screws that hold the upper balance jewel setting in the balance cock.
Now take a jewel pusher, and you can push out the upper balance jewel setting from the balance cock.
Set the balance wheel aside, and on the dial side you can remove the two screws that secure the lower balance jewels.
They can then be pushed out using the jewel pusher.
Reassembly is just a matter of pushing the jewels back into place, taking note of any witness marks or screw indentations to help orient the jewels correctly in the settings, and replace the screws.
Keep track of which screw came from which hole and replace each screw into the hole from which it came.
If cleaning the movement, it’s easiest to put the screws that hold the chatons back into their respective holes to keep track of where they go.
Hope that helps.
@mercuriall2810 I've read somewhere that these are a different type of jewelset called "rub in". I'm not 100% sure if that's in fact what these are, but I've used my Horia tool and tried to gently push them out. It got to a point where it felt like I needed to use way too much pressure to remove the jewel so I stopped. I was afraid of damaging something, but if it's normal to need an obscene amount of torque to pop these little guys out... I'll attempt it again. The jewels were already cracked before I attempted to remove them, but I really don't want to damage my rather expensive Horia jeweling tool lol.
@@mltrymn1213 The jewel settings come out as I described. Sometimes it does indeed need some force to move them. They come out of the top of the balance cock, so push from underneath.
If you can source the right replacement jewels for this movement, already in their settings, then they will push into place as described and there is no need to learn about rub in jewels and the process of replacing them.
I’ve not used a Horia tool to push these out, I use a Seitz jewelling press. Most settings come out quite easily, some are stubborn.
If you are worried about damaging your Horia tool, you can get vintage jewel pushers quite cheaply, that are handheld and have prongs of different diameters for pushing out settings of different sizes.
In case you are curious about rubbed in jewels, aka burnished in jewels, they are common in older watches and are pushed out when broken.
Then a special tool is used to open a metal lip that holds the jewel in, the correct size replacement jewel is placed and another tool, is used to rub or burnish the metal lip over the edge of the jewel, holding it in place.
The tools rub in jewels come up for sale fairly often, and the process of using them is quite straightforward, but unfortunately rub in jewels are shaped differently to Seitz type friction set jewels. This can make sourcing the rub in jewel you need very difficult.
When a suitable rub in jewel cannot be found, it is sometimes replaced by reaming out the hole to fit a modern Seitz friction jewel of the correct type and hole size. It is great if this can be avoided to preserve the watch as it was originally made, but sometimes it is the only way to fix the watch.
There are CZcams videos demonstrating the process of replacing rubbed in jewels, but you don’t need them for replacing the balance jewelling on this watch.
@mercuriall2810 awesome! Thank you so much for the advice and I'll give it another shot with the Horia tool. I'm sure it's not as bad as it seems, but I've never done this before. I'm pretty new at this stuff, but really eager to learn and become proficient in all types of movements. Again, thank you for the assistance 😊!
any experience with the STP1-11?
You mean the 2824 clone? Whats the problem?
@@watchrepairtutorials zodiac screwed me. i sent them my 3 year old super sea wolf with date and they sent it back to me saying that they dont have the parts to fix it!!!
Великолепно!
Thanks you my friend
I had a blancpain leman running ten seconds fast...per minute
Ouch. So what did you do?
Wow. Just watched this video now and I still don't understand.
Watch it again. 😜
Does this summary help?
The watch is running very slow, and this points to a problem somewhere with the balance complete.
Inspection of the balance complete reveals the timing screws are screwed all the way out.
Timing screws being moved outwards slows down the watch by moving some mass of the balance away from the centre.
To increase the rate of the watch, these timing screws are moved back in to the rim of the balance wheel.
As Alex foreshadowed, this did increase the rate of the watch, but not nearly enough. So he decided to check if the hairspring was correct for the movement.
Measuring the distance between balance pivot Centre and the regulator pins and measuring the hairspring gives rise to a ratio which can be expressed as a percentage.
These percentages can be looked up on the Helwig chart, to see what shape an overcoiled hairspring for that balance cock should have.
The hairspring in the watch did not match the relevant hairspring shape in the Helwig chart, but did match the shape of a hairspring that would suit a different balance cock. This means the watch has the incorrect hairspring fitted.
Alex ordered the correct hairspring and fitted it to the watch after cleaning it.
This brought the rate of the watch back within a range in which the watch can be readjusted to keep time in accordance with its original factory specifications.
Adjusting the watch to these specifications over 3 positions will be the subject of another video.
Wow. Thanks dude. That does make sense. I don't know how many years of experience Alex got for him to have known this, but that's awesome. I wish I got into this hobby a long time ago. This is more and more awesome the more I keep getting into this.
@@NombreFrancisco I’ve got a reasonable degree of experience and knowledge when it comes to watchmaking.
That said, with watchmaking, you should never stop learning. It keeps getting more fascinating as you progress, even once you are proficient. I find still it very rewarding.
No matter how early you start this hobby or profession, you can keep on learning indefinitely.
What do you mean by "cenner"? Or is it "center"? Can't you pronounce a T?. Sloppy speech is a sign of laziness.
Whatever you say bish
LMFAO
You don’t achieve any where near the proficiency Alex has as a watchmaker, let alone be able to explain and teach it so well, if you are at all lazy.