Why The Dry Phase Is So Important To Home Coffee Roasters!
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- čas přidán 2. 07. 2024
- In today's video, I answer the question "Why is the dry phase so important to home coffee roasters?" While I was creating this video, I mistakenly demonstrated how a roast can get out of control. You will see me make the same mistake many home coffee roasters experience right in front of your eyes and then, I explain what happened and how to prevent it in the future.
The irony of this video topic is it happened to me while I was giving 3 reasons why the dry phase is so important. Check these 3 reasons why the dry phase is so important:
1. Some roast defects occur during the drying phase
2. The Dry phase determines roast times for the browning & development phases
3. The entire pace of the roast is determined by the drying phase
Share your thoughts in the comments area..... Have you experienced roasts that move to quickly? Is first crack happening early? Does first crack run into second crack?
Here are shortcuts to segments of my video:
0:00 The most important phase of coffee roasting
5:09 Opportunity to create roasting defects
6:32 Dry phase affects the entire roast profile
8:51 My roast is out of control
12:14 Dry phase affects the pace of the entire roast
14:04 Review the roast
19:20 Be a part of this home roaster community
19:38 We learn from our mistakes
Links to the various coffee supplies I use:
If you click on these links I may receive a fee which helps support this channel
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I roast coffee on my Mill City 500 gram commercial coffee roaster every week. I also use a Behmor and a hot air popcorn popper to roast some great coffee. Join me as we roast, brew and cup coffee every week at home.
Do you roast coffee at home? Do you craft single serve coffee and if so, what brewing method do you like? Please share your comments and be sure to like this video!
About Me:
I am a coffee enthusiast who roasts coffee from home on my sample size commercial drum coffee roaster. Coffee has been in my life for over 40 years, whether I was selling it or roasting it, I want to share my passion with you.
Supplies to Build Your Coffee Cart & Organize
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Music:
Rubber Necking - Topher Mohr and Alex Elena
!dryphase
#HomeCoffeeRoaster #CleverDripper #CoffeeBrewingMethods - Jak na to + styl
I just watched someone simultaneously over and under think what they were doing because they were talking about it in real time. Great content. Love the channel
Hi Jeremy, yea that was something. I learned a big lesson in that video. Roasting coffee takes concentration and I was trying to do the video and roast coffee at the same time. Not a good combo for me. I’m glad you found my channel and are enjoying the content. I appreciate the encouragement. Do you roast? What are you roasting on?
Since getting my SR800 with extension tube and chaff extension, I have. roasted a few beans. I have also found that no two Fresh Roast machines are even close to being alike. I watched one guy put the heat on 9 the whole roast and played with the fan a lot. I understand what he was doing. If I leave my heat that high, it will burn the house down it gets so hot. I know beans are different and take different profiles. I always roast 226 grams. That allows me to fine tune my roast and keep most times the same profile. I start out with fan 6 heat 2. I change the fan a few times as I am roasting at first by color. I usually run through the dry faze about 4 min and hit the first crack between 7 and 8 minutes. The heat setting never gets above 4. Again I watch the beans color and how high they are in the tube. My roast yesterday was medium +. I like that taste. total time was 10 minutes. I cool my beans with my home made vacuum cooler and just over a min I am putting the beans in a bag. What a challenge. Chef Jerry Irmo South Carolina USA
Great video. Good to see roasts that don't go 100% according to plan and commentary on what could have been done to course correct. Good reality check to show that roasting isn't a plug and play operation.
Well said Jesse. Roasting isn't a plug and play operation. I'm glad you enjoyed my video. Thanks for sharing and for being a subscriber!
You sir, are a fantastic resource for those of use that roast for a hobby. Your explanations about the phases has really helped my own roasts!
Hi Eric, Thank you very much. It is a great hobby to share and learn from each other. I'm glad you found my videos helpful! What are you using to roast your coffee?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I'm using a heatgun with a double paddle bread machine. I am acutely aware of the sights, sounds and smell during each phase of the roast. After watching your videos breaking down the objectives of each, I put it into practice and it was a noticeable improvement. I was under roasting most beans. The origin flavors prevalent but they all had some sour/tartness i wanted to eliminate. They are gone now. My last Columbian Gesha and Guatemalan Pacmara are spot on with the note descriptions on the bags from SM. Thanks!
Again, fantastic information. Thank you. 👍
Glad it was helpful! Out of control roasts can happen quickly. Once we become familiar with our roaster and how much heat is needed to get the beans dry within a specific period of time, we can better prepare how to adjust our heat as we aim for first crack. Half of the learning process is being able to control our roast.
Love your videos 👍
Thanks very much for your time and effort.
I am glad my videos are helpful for you Allan. Thank you for the encouraging words!
Excellent tutorial.
Glad it was helpful. Thanks for the encouraging comment!
Super helpful. You are a good teacher!
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching!
Hi Mike, I don’t know how I missed this session for a long time. It is a great video (as usual) with lots of good information for us greenies. Special thank you for deciding to show what seemed to be a very embarrassing moment (your body language gave it away even when your words didn’t). Because it definitely and practically accomplished the teaching goal and gave us a great video to come back to. I’ve doing this for a couple of months now and after your review on the Nuvo and Hive I used those rosters more than my Whitley Pop and air popper roaster for better results but I didn’t know about the couple of tricks to increase or decrease temp with the towel or taking the top off. Sweet Maria’s advise to use an extension if the popper runs too hot or even turning it off for a few seconds while stirring but even then roasting goes fast. I’ll try yours. I got a Hottop now that has helped me to pay more attention to your videos for all of those pearls you share. Thank you
Thanks for your comments and for watching Arthur. Yea, sometimes watching someone make roasting mistakes can really hit home. In this instance, it is a really common mistake pouring on the heat and not thinking ahead to how that will affect the rest of the roast. Thanks for being a subscriber!
Thank Mike
Thank you for watching my video @Là tôi and for being a subscriber to my channel.
This video is so helpful! Honestly, this video was way more useful and helpful to have you explain through and point out mistakes than if it would have gone perfectly! Thanks for posting!
Glad it was helpful Collin. I learned alot about momentum in that roast. It is pretty easy to let a roast get away from us when we apply too much heat. I make plenty of mistakes roasting coffee, whether on a video or in real life BUT that is how we learn! Thanks for your encouragement and for watching my video. What type of roaster are you using to roast coffee?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I'm currently roasting on a modified nostalgia hot air popcorn popper. I'm strongly considering upgrading to a Fresh Roast SR800.
Nice. I'm hoping to do some videos using a SR540 soon. There are a lot of people using these roasters.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Awesome! I definitely need to get one ordered then!
I also plan to modify it to log on Artisan.
Thanks again for your work, Mike. I've been trying to pay more attention to the beginning of the roast recently based on information from other roasters, and your video confirms what I've been reading . It seems like for so long, the consensus among roasters was, "Well it's not first crack, so there's not much happening and it's not that important." I've been guilty of just blasting the heat at the beginning and not really monitoring things until I got to the browning stage, but I'm learning to be more deliberate with drying and yellowing too!
Hi Duston, Thanks for your comments & thank you very much for contributing to the conversation here on my channel (specifically Michael Denson's question from earlier about the Behmor). As far as taste goes, I have noticed differences with a longer dry time. I'm trying to determine if that is because it has altered the entire profile or if the time in dry really does influence the flavor. Jury is still out on that. I think it it safe to day my 3 points about dry are sound and it has really helped me understand the entire roasting process influences the outcome. I heard a pilot once say "poor approach = poor landing". The same can be said for the dry phase. Poor dry phase planning = poor roast. Thanks again for your comments and encouragement.
Thanks again Mike, l really enjoyed your video. To bad about the roast.
Glad you enjoyed it Shane. Yea, roasting and talking at the same time is not so easy but the good news is my mistake helped bring out the video topic. I'll figure out a better format to do this for future videos. Thanks for the encouragement Shane!.
Thank you again, Mike. I've watched 3 videos from 3 different people who all charged the roaster at 380°-ish, turned the heat off for 1 minute, then turned the heat on again. One gal who was using a Hottop, someone else with a commercial roaster and now you. I guess there's something to doing that. I have a Hottop 2K (which I will convert to 2K+). I'll be roasting tomorrow hopefully, so I'll give that a try. My last roast I preheated to 250° and that seemed to shorten the drying phase from my previous roasts where I preheated to 167°, the default preheat. So far my mistakes have been pretty drinkable except for some Ethiopia where the roast stalled because I turned the heat down too much too early.
Your Welcome.
Great video Mike. Please make videos about how to avoid baking coffee.
Hello Vahid, I've baked coffee before and it is quite disappointing. I will see what I can do about a video. I did do a video recently czcams.com/video/nl6S6RyU_Rg/video.html and it talks about sweet flavorful coffee which is the opposite of baked coffee. That video might offer some helpful information. Thank you for the suggestion.
Mike, I really like the fact you were honest enough to show your "ugly" roast profile. I agree the result may be a great roast for some peoples taste because you used your experience to salvage a very drinkable profile from a quite "ugly" roast profile situation. Most of us understand it's hard to talk into a camera, and run a good profile at the same time. I wish others, including professionals, who make coffee roasting videos would be as honest as you have been about sharing the resulting profiles with us! It is much more instructive that way. I have been roasting for over 15 years from iRoast to BBQ to 1K North/MCity, and find your videos interesting and informative, keep it up.
Thanks for the encouraging comments F100 Strato. You have lots of experience roasting on many types of equipment. What has been your favorite and why?
I have lots of “ugly” roasts that taste really good. The one in this video was because of a poorly executed charge temp and dry phase. It was a great example of a common mistake made by roasters. Because of the mistake my middle browning phase was too short. While drinkable, it could have been so much better. Lesson learned 😊.
I’m glad my videos have been helpful for you!
I learned a lot with my little iRoast. I installed a temp probe through the top into the bean mass and used a Variac to control voltage which gave me lots more control and really taught me what bean temperatures go with the various phases of roast and what the beans looked like at those phases so it was a great introductory roaster that didn't go through very much coffee so my mistakes were not so costly. The BBQ Drum was a great way to up my production and I got some great roasts, without Bean temp and a visual of the beans I learned to use the other important factors including time, temp, smell, and sound. The nicest thing about BBQ grill roasting is you don't worry about the bean temp rate of rise (ROR) curve at the expense of more important factors. Now with my 1K Gas drum roaster I have all the metrics and can fine tune everything. I can agonize over bumps in my ROR curve or learn to accept the fact that it is not the most important thing in the Roast. As you have said --the bean temp is the most important thing the ROR contributes but we can't sweat the little bumps at the expense of the big picture. Some people make a living trying to get us to sweat the little ROR bumps. I think that's why the Pro's don't show their Profile graphs, because they too have bought into the conventional roasting paradigm of the ever elusive smooth declining ROR curve and their curves still have ROR bumps! Every now and then I get a perfect straight line descending ROR and it feels good but it doesn't always win in cupping.
Good video, Mike. Even though the roast wasn't what you wanted, it made your point, as you said. I agree with you on getting off to a good start and paying attention to the dry phase. If that's done right, the rest should pretty much follow along. Have you tasted those beans yet? Just curious to hear how they tasted. I've had roasts that I though went wrong only to have some pretty good tasting coffee. Thanks for another fun video.
Hi Gary! I'm glad you enjoyed it. Yea, it was more challenging to roast and talk than I remember but you are right, the point was made. I was going to edit and abridge the video but I really wanted people to see "everything" as far as transparency and mistakes. I'm not worried if people might think I screwed up because we all have bad roasts. This mistake couldn't have happened on a more appropriate video than this one. The soak was a little too long and my exhaust temp on my charge was lower than I usually have it. Those two issues set me behind by 1 minute of my original dry time and that is why I hit the gas... literally to try and catch up. I would have been better off to simple do "Point #2"(The Dry phase determines roast times for the browning & development phases).
As always, thanks for the encouragement!
I watched this video three times. This is the best video about roasting I've seen. Most of the videos teach you to do things right. However, there are many factors for the beginners like me to comprehend. But this one shows the mistakes during the course and really help me to understand a lot. I also watched your other videos and learned a lot. Thank you.
I have a suggestion for you to consider. Can you do a video/videos from your tasting of a particular coffee, e.g. tasting notes, and then walk back to that corresponding profile and do an analysis, which does not matter a successful roasting or not, to tell the viewers whether you have achieved the tasting notes provided by the seller?
Thank you again and looking forward to your new videos.
Hi John, I guess I should show more videos of me roasting because I make a lot of mistakes. haha. I'm glad that video was helpful for you. What are you roasting on? The dry phase is like turning on a locomotive hauling 300 cars. It takes a while to build up to speed and then you have to slow down the train but because of the heavy haul, it takes time to slow down. Roasting coffee is similar where you have all of this energy building up like a speeding train and if you don't plan when to slow it down, a head of time, it will fly right by the middle phase, hit first crack and by that time its all over. I took me a while to understand that so I'm glad it happened to me during the video so others could see. Glad my videos have been helpful for you.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab hi, Mike, Thank you so much for your reply. I started my home roasting 2 years ago because I found Starbucks so boring. I played with cast iron, ceramic roasting pot, modified popcorn machine and early last year I bought a Gene Cafe, the one button push solution where I thought that is how the coffee is roasted until I found that no matter what origin the coffee is from it tastes the same. Then I was curiously searching and found the world of special coffee and a thing called roasting profile. So I got my Hottop 2k+ and Artisan this week and started my learning journey. So far I roasted 4 batches, the profiles are ugly and coffees are either under or over. But it’s really a challenge and fun. I pretty much watched all your videos and like them very much, and watching some of them several times. Your are the best because you can get your points straight and clearly. Thank you so much for putting your time and effort into your videos.
@@johnsnow3602 There are a couple of Hottop 2k guys here that are learning as well. Sounds like a nice roaster. We are going to do a little brewing related videos that corelate with our roasting. My son will be doing them and I am looking forward to learning a lot more about that. I have a lot more content I am planning. Thanks again for your encouragement.
Very interesting! I have been roasting for many years using my convection toaster oven equipped with a metal fan circulator, I had great results with some beans but not with others. Some of the roasts turn out flat and almost with a musty woody taste. I'm not much of a fan of medium and light roasts, more of a darker roast City Plus plus for me. I found out that some coffee beans can take roasting longer better than others, my roasting times are what most professionals are describing as way TOO long. My roasts typically take under 30 minutes to get to the beginning of 2nd Crack, but for my regular beans like Colombian, Sumatran Mandheling, Toraja, they turn out quit alright. However, the PNG peaberry and a Yirgacheffe came out flat and quite uninteresting in taste. I am now experimenting with a hot air gun on 3.5oz and I am able to get much faster roasting times at under 13 minutes, though I had to move the heat gun constantly. There are also some 8 cup flour sifter mods out there that looks very interesting, and they seem to roast pretty fast and evenly as well.
That is a long time to roast coffee and is probably the cause of the issues you experienced with flat and uninteresting coffee. How hot is your roaster oven when roasting?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab My toaster convection oven is quite interesting, in rotisserie drum mode, its upper heating element is on, in standard, both upper and lower heating element are turned on. I have measured the temperature to well over 275C or 527F. It also comes with a circulator fan. I think the slow tumbling speed and only the upper element turned on resulted in a slower roast. It works okay for dark roasts but not so good for medium roasts. I am now waiting for a motorized perforated roasting drum, which I will try roasting with my heat gun.
Your videos have been so helpful to me! Any additional tips for how to know when to mark dry end? I roast in an SR540 w/ extension tube and although I can see the beans I struggle to know when the beans are completely dry.
Hi Daniel, Thank you for watching my videos. The SR540 Gives you a great visibility when it comes to seeing color doesn’t it? It has that clear chamber? Using an led light should also help see color. I call dry end when there is no more green. As long as it is consistently the same color for each roast that should work well. Are you able to smell the beans? When you start to smell yeast, that is another sign. Is that helpful?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab yes this is helpful! Thanks. I can see the beans clearly but I wasn’t sure at what shade of yellow to call dry end. There’s pale yellow…then dark yellow/tan. I’ve been marking dry end closer to dark yellow but then I wonder if that starts to get into the brown phase. I use my smell to note when I start to smell caramelization to know I’m into brown phase. Sounds like based on what your saying a lighter yellow might be the true mark of dry end if there’s no green..
So let’s say this was the perfect roast, you did everything correct, how do you make it repeatable? Can you load in the profile to your roaster?
Thanks for watching. This was one of my earlier roasts on the channel and a live view of my roasting software wasn't being displayed. The logging software is capable of recording energy, air, and drum changes. All temperatures are recorded so you can repeat the roast. The drum roaster I am using cannot be controlled by the computer. It is an older roaster. I am able to open the roast I want to repeat so it is visible in the background.
That being said, I am able to repeat the roasts by using the same settings and making any needed adjustments on the fly by following the graph.
very sympathetic :D
It was a learning experience. Thanks for watching!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab have you invested in a destoner yet? Or do you have "do it yourself" solution? 🤔. Love you're content
You're concerned about stones in your coffee that will get into your grinder? I have heard people finding stones. I usually manually review my beans while they are in the cooling tray. I have yet to find a stone in any of my coffees
You mentioned in passing that the roasted beans were much larger than usual - is that a sign of too-vigorous FC? I'm off to watch the defects video but I wanted to ask before I forgot. I'm just getting started in the hobby, so thanks for the informative videos!
After first crack, the beans slowly begin to swell. This can be used to help us determine a roast level. I tend to roast to a medium or slightly lighter roast color. When I end my roast, my beans have a slightly wrinkled texture. If I were to go a little further into my roast beads, we get a little darker, the wrinkles would go away, and they would begin to swell.
So, in this case, I noticed the beans were beginning to swell, indicating that I had gone further into the roast than I wanted.
The vigorous first crack you are experiencing is a sign that you have a lot of energy/momentum, pushing the roast quickly. You may want to consider adjusting your heat a little lower as you enter first crack, or just before so that your first crack is not as aggressive. When you have a fast first crack, you will find yourself quickly and second crack before you know it. You may not even know you’re in second crack.
I’m glad
My videos have been helpful!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I've been grinding the beans from my first awkward, SR800+extension roast, and I noticed that they're a lot fluffier than the beans from a local roaster. After a week creating a better-vented workspace 🤣I'm ready to try again. I've ordered a long TC probe and have high hopes for my _third_ roast at least, but I'm out of coffee so here goes nothing. 🙂
I destroyed some Jamaican Blue Mtn last week like this. Started way too fast and couldn't recover. The smoke alarm actually went off! Tragedy.
Yea, I doesn’t take much. I’ve really learned to watch the turning point time and temp to help me understand my momentum. This works great for drum type roasting using artisan.
For those who raise with air roasters it comes down to basic heat management throughout every phase, paying attention to color and smell.
What are you using to roast with?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab It's an SR540. I watched your video on that device and wrote down the temps you did, and tried again with that as a guide. I watched the color and adjusted as I went. I'm still letting them age, so don't know what the flavor profile will be like, but they are at least a uniform medium roast this time.
Thanks for sharing this! Very good info!
I've noticed that most people who are making roasting videos make mistakes because of not focusing all attention on the roast.
Do you have the capability to voice over? So you can do it like a sports replay video. We see you doing it correctly and you give a play by play with pauses and still frames, closeups, etc if needed.
I don't see anyone doing this, but it seems like the most logical way to do it to me.
Also putting a picture in picture of the roast time, temp. and settings panel on the side for reference.
@GoTellJesusSaves, You have some good suggestions regarding a better format & process for the videos. Yes, I have those capabilities and can easily td PIP, voice overs, etc... At some point I would like to do a livestream, whether i'm roasting or simply for Q & A and community.... Not sure if people would be interested in a livestream home roaster show type thing or not... So in my previous videos, i edit them to clean up gaps in time, mistakes I make and so on BUT I don't want to present a false impression that i don't make mistakes or have all the answers. So, this last video I wanted to try and go straight through with no edits and it just so happened I was roasting at the same time on this video.
So, lots to learn and work out but it seems like I am getting some positive feedback from viewers.
Thank you very much for your suggestions and encouragement.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Hi, Mike: It would be great if you could do both You Tube Livestreams and also edited videos as well. Have you thought about using Instagram to do livestreams too?
@@ediemah611 At this point CZcams is where the livestreams wold take place. This is where my content resides so probably not instragram at this point. Thanks for your comments.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Talking through your roasting is a great idea. You can just do your work and talking without looking at the camera. And you can only project your Roaster Scope to the screen. I like the idea of 'Mike's Roasting Reality Show'. Thank you.
Dry face is important if we put more charge beans burst..I used to roast at .landour coffee ,, mussoorie india
Hello Shyam Girl, Thank you for your message and watching my video. Yes, the size of a batch has great influence on the dry phase. The larger commercial roasters can actually "coast" later in the roast where they can lower or even turn off the gas because the of the large amount of beans in the roaster begin to go exothermic where they give off heat. Thank you!
Hi, Mike:
Thank you for your great demonstration video and explanation of this subject.
I recently bought the Behmor 2000AB roaster so I would really like it if you could do another video using your Behmor roaster to demonstrate the dry phase and development phase.
*** If you will be doing another Behmor video, can you please explain what the "A" exhaust temp and "B" chamber wall temp is and how they are each or both used and their effect on the roasting phases and final result. ***
My first roast with my Behmor was trying to roast some Brazil Santos beans. I could totally relate to everything that you discussed in this video. The first crack of my beans started at about 9.5 to 10 minutes from my start time, the beans did not swell up much at all and the coloring of the beans was more of a light roast rather than the medium roast that I was hoping for. Also, it didn't help that I was roasting outside, so it was extremely difficult to read the LED display on the roaster to gauge what the "A" and "B" temperatures were to be able to manipulate the control of the roast by pressing the various "P" buttons to lower or raise the oven temperature.
Hello Edie, Thanks for your comment. The Behmor is a great roaster but there is a learning curve and some limitations compared to other roasters. One of the best exercises new people to roasting should do is to chart/log their roasts. On the graph you have time going along the bottom and temperatures going up the left side just like what you saw in my video. Every 30 seconds document the bean temperature along the graph. Also document milestones like dry end (when the beans are no longer green but yellow). Also include on the graph 1st crack and also drop. I know on the behmor you hit the cool button but that is another topic. Write all of that stuff down so you can see what his happening. If you have done that you will be able to segment that graph into the 3 phases with times and temps. The first time you do this should be pretty interesting. I would recommend you then watch my video "3 tips for new home coffee roasters" where i talk about each of the 3 phases.
Lastly, when looking at your bean color, you may need to use a white light. The yellow tinted light in the behmor and the orange heating rods don't help so the white flashlight might be helpful.
I hope to do more videos soon on the behmor. Thanks for your encouragement and comments.
Fellow Behmor user here. I think the easiest way to understand the connection between your A temp and B temp is knowing when the afterburner kicks in. The time for that will be different depending on which weight setting you're roasting with. Once the afterburner comes on, the hot air toward the back and the middle of the roasting chamber gets sucked up toward the top; if you toggle between A and B at that point, you'll see your B temp decrease slightly (or possibly plateau) while your A temp increases quite quickly. I think it's important to know that your B temp is NOT an accurate reading of the bean mass temperature - but it is helpful to keep you from pushing too much heat and running into Err2 (overheat error).
@@dg10890 Hi, Dustin: Thank you for insight and information based on your Behmor user experience. Your description of the trends for the "A" and "B" temps was exactly what happening with my Behmor.
If I want to end up with a medium to medium-dark roast, after I reach a "B" temp between 310-315 deg. F, at the beginning drying phase, should I then start toggling between the P3, P4 and P5 buttons to extend the drying and bean coloring phases of the roast so that I don't hit first crack so quickly which will hopefully allow better development of the roasted bean process? Also, can you explain how I should be using the "A" exhaust temp more effectively during the roast?
For a medium/medium-dark roast, should I roast until end of first crack or up to the start of second crack?
Do you have a roasting profile or method that works using your Behmor that you can share/post?
@@ediemah611 You're definitely on the right track. If you're at 310-315 on your B temp, I would toggle power down to P3 or P4, if only to prevent Err2 if nothing else - each machine's cutoff temp is different but is usually around 330. I usually start a roast at P5 and will toggle down to P3 or P4 at the onset of first crack, but I usually stick to light and medium roasts. Since you're going darker, I don't think you need to stretch out first crack as much; I would focus more on that development time between the end of first crack and the beginning of second crack. Sweet Maria's has a really good article somewhere on their website about exactly that and for dark roasts on the Behmor. Hope this helps!
@Edie Mah It's great to see another Behmor 2000 roaster in here. I'm also beginning my journey into roasting and have many of the same questions you do. I am finding a couple of things that were (and sometimes still are) causing me to not have very good control over my roasts. 1) I can get too much of what I call "thermal momentum" if I do not pre-heat the roaster, but rather just start from cold with 100% heat. It's kind of like heating a cold cast iron skillet, and by the time you realize it's getting too hot, it's way to late to remove heat to cool it down. It makes determining Dry End much more difficult because everything is happening so quickly. 2) The same thing occurs if my thermal momentum is too high in the browning phase. If that happens, I can blast into and through first crack and find myself way too far into development to control much of anything. The other replies here are giving some great advice.
@Dustin Grooms I have run my Behmor 2000 (with an empty drum) at 100%, 75%, and 50% heating rates, and have recorded the (B) temperature curves for 13 minutes. My roaster NEVER issued any over-temp alarm like the 1600 seems to do. With 100% heat being applied, at about the 6-minute point, the (B) temp was 325 F and the heater started modulating power to the elements instead of having them stay at 100%. Then at 7 minutes and 30 seconds into the heating, the vent opened and my average temp was about 305 F. If the vent opening is the same thing as the afterburner turning on, the 2000 seems to consistently do that at 7:30; it seems to not regard the weight setting, but I will need to double check that.
Let’s say after 2 years of using a hot air popper, you are looking to get the the next level of home roasting. What would be a couple machines you would recommend. Temperature control during the roast is a must feature.
Ahhh, I just was wondering if you were looking for something different in your previous post.....
So there are a couple of different options that you can consider. Let's say you want to stay under 500 dollars.
Hive Roaster - It comes in a few options. It is a manual roaster, literally, and can roast up to 170 grams per roast. The version I have displays the bean temp using a probe . They also have a version that connects to artisan. My version was under 200 dollars.
Behmor - It is a drum roaster, not a hot air roaster. I've roasted on a behmor for 7 or 8 years. Like all roasters, it has it's strengths and weaknesses. It is not easy to roast lighter roasts. It will roast up to a pound of coffee but realistically you will be doing 1/2 pound roasts. Although it has pre-defined roasting profiles you can use in the automatic mode, you will most likely end up roasting in the manual mode. These cost around 480 dollars.
Fresh Roast - Lots of people use these air roasters. The 540 and 800 model are similar but the 800 has a greater capacity. There is a facebook group for this roaster. They are in the 250-300 dollar range. I just got the 540 as a gift from someone and will be doing some videos in the near future.
I won't recommend one of these over the other. You can checkout my videos on the behmor and hive. This should give you an idea of how they work and what their strengths and weaknesses are. I hope this info has been helpful.
Thanks Mike I enjoyed your videos really much!!
I'm just getting into home roasting, do you recommend any resources to learn to plan roasts for beginners?
Like general guidances for planning the temperature, time, and other factors.
I'm overwhelmed by a lot of videos showing a lot of parameters, haha
Hi Daniel, in my opinion, the best start is to understand what happens to coffee when we roast. So, I have made a couple of videos that talk about this including the 3 tips for new home coffee roasters and also "why the dry phase is so important. Today's video will address how to achieve the sweet flavorful coffee. I don't focus on times and temperatures because each roaster is different. What roaster are you using? Maybe i could give you a few ideas?
Thanks, will definitely check them out. Love your videos and I learned a lot!! :D
I just got my roaster "Kaleido sniper m2". It's an electric drum roaster of ~1lb capacity, but it offers full manual + auto control over heat power, drum speed, and exhaust. I'm still working on getting familiar with my machine. Do you have any advice on using such smaller electric home roasters?
Dan, see my Kaleido M2 video here :
czcams.com/video/eLAjepXtAg4/video.htmlsi=MR5160Vk-TQxsZae
More to follow
Good video, sharing mistakes is important! I would have liked you do a blind cupping of that roast vs your normal ones. The curve looked pretty decent but hard to tell.
Hi Keith, Thanks for your comment. While it was a wobbly curve, the slope wasn't that bad. There were two really big issues with that roast. First was the browning phase (middle phase) time/percentage. I would have liked that percentage to be longer than 26 percent. I would have been happy with 30-35 percent and that would have really changed the flavor profile. But, because I poured on the heat too much during the dry phase, i had too much energy going into the middle phase and it blew right threw it. The second issue was the 408 drop temperature. On my roaster, for a medium to slightly lighter, I usually drop at about 297-401 depending on the coffee. That drop temp really influences the roasty flavor of the coffee. Some might like that for their coffee but I try to drop before then to optimize the sweetness and flavorful potential of the bean. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of people who like to roast well into development and knock out the acidity and darken the profile with chocolate and nutty notes. I get that. So, what I ended up with was too far past to call it a successful roast. I planned for 399 but hit 408.....
My family and I want on vacation a couple weeks ago and we had a "brew off". 3 of us brewed the same coffee and we did blind tasting. All three of us picked #1, #2, #3 in the same order. Even our brewing can influence the flavor profile of our coffee. It is a pretty amazing thing..... wow.
Anyhow, thanks for the comment and I will try and incorporate more tasting, even blind tasting witn some of the roasts I do in videos.
typically how much time is between 1st crack and second crack? I am having trouble with this. Is the 2nd crack really closely after 1st crack? I am not sure even how long the 1st crack takes? (Sorry, new to this but very excited to learn!!)
Hi Tom,
First crack is one of several important events. Charge, Dry End, First Crack, Second Crack and Drop are all very important events that provide information to help us roast coffee. Depending on your roasting style, roast level and ultimately how you want your coffee to taste, your first crack event and the amount of time it takes to complete or even get to 2nd crack will differ.
As I mention in another comment you made, consider watching my home coffee roasting "Essentials" playlist. I discuss basic concepts for roasting coffee that will help you roast some good flavorful coffee as well as understand more about the coffee roasting process and lingo.
I hope my response was helpful. Checkout the videos and feel free to ask more questions. I'll be glad to help.
I just went through this great video (Thanks!) and I wonder if you can explain the pros/cons of soaking. Do you soak all the beans. Shall we consider soaking or not due to beans process, density, size...? Thanks in advance!
Hello Sergio, thank you for your kind comment. I'm glad this was a helpful video for you. First, let's clarify what I mean by "soak". I have heard of people who wet their green coffee beans before roasting. I believe they do this to help reduce roasting defects. Most of these people are using a frying pan. The other "soak" refers to the time the beans go into the roaster at a set temperature and turn off the energy for a short period of time to allow the beans to soak in the heat. So, I will answer your question as it relates to the second meaning......
I soak all of my coffee when it enters the roaster regardless of the process or density. The variable is how long and at what charge temperature. Those choices are made based on density, bean size and process type.
For me, soaking is a tool I use to help reduce roasting defects as well as a way for me to see how the beans react to heat. The first reason is pretty obvious and I talk about this in my video. The second reason, "a way for me to see how the beans react", is really important. If I select too low of a charge temperature, then it is going to take much more energy to try and catch up to my target dry end time. When I roast, I set my target times as goals within a 15 second variable. I don't always achieve this but I get close most of the time and.... that is my goal. So, if I find I am too fast and too hot after my charge, I can let the soak go longer, bleeding off excess energy, and or use a lower gas setting and slow down my dry phase.
I use turning point as my alarm clock to make my decision on gas adjustments during the dry phase. By then I have a pretty solid sense if I am am on track or in trouble. So, soak is a personal preference. For me, it is a safety net for both reduction of roast defects as well as keeping control of my roast.
I hope my answer was helpful and made sense and thank you again for watching my videos!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Loud and clear! Thanks
I'm wondering about percentages versus time for each phase. Seems to me that if you get a good roast with browning phase of 3 minutes and development phase of 2 1/2 minutes that you would not want to change those numbers regardless of the length of the dry phase. So whether the dry phase takes 3 minutes or 5 minutes, you would still want those times of 3 minutes for browning and 2 1/2 minutes for development. What is the reason for using percentages for the browning and development phases instead of elapsed time?
Agreed. If you are happy with your times and ultimately the cup then don’t change. I use phase percentages and tweak those based on the coffee I am roasting. I also use total roast time as part of my flavor profile variables
@@VirtualCoffeeLab thanks!
I enjoyed the video, as always, but using a Behmor not sure how to use this info, I don’t think I could figure out the ror, and not sure how to control the drying phase. Maybe I should strart with a higher charge temperature? But I really enjoyed the video tanks👍
you can absolutely apply this with a behmor. I have been talking with a roaster friend about this topic and he has tracked his times and temperatures on paper. He has also noted all of the events and put them onto a graph. The graph is similar to what you saw in my video. He then was able to understand what the behmor performance was like. how it responded to power changes (he noted those onthe graph too, as well as drum speed and most importantly, the dreaded fan that turns on automatically.) Andre, I will see if I can work on a video specifically for Behmor people to help explain this. By doing this, my roaster friend who is a brand new home roaster was able to improve his roast and drinking experience!
As for charge temp, a big benefit for behmor roaster people is to pre-warm their roaster for 1-2 minutes before a roast.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thank you so much fot your reply, I think I get it I will try to record the temp has it rises, not sure I understand everything but will try mybest to figure all of this out. At the moment I am experimenting with different charge temp, 180 290 and next is 320, so far the 290 gave me best results and I was able to get a dtr of 21%, but without ror not sure it is relevant.
Thanks again, Andre
testing charge temperatures is a great way to understand how they impact both your dry time and overall total roast time. If you have not watched this yet, it might help answer a few more questions about the 3 phases and how much time for each as a starting point while learning how to roast. It isn't the only profile, but is a good starting point. Also, see my comments I made to @Erhard Dinges for this video about Rate of Rise and my answers to him. They might help too.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Mike, I've been using my Behmor more than my Hottop lately and would love to see a Behmor specific video. Great job, thanks again.
@Mike Denson, thanks, and i'm glad you enjoyed the video. Really, you are using the Behmor more than the Hottop? That is interesting. I hope to do more Behmor roasting soon. Thanks for your request.
How do you identify the end of the drying phase?
Hi Matt. Great question. So there are several methods used to determine when dry end occurs. There are not in any particular order:
First is temperature. There are some who will always mark the end of dry when the temperature reaches 320 degrees or whatever number they decide. It usually ranges from 320-340. This is helpful if you have no real visibility of the bean color while roasting.
Second, as just mentioned, color is another method to determine when you have reached dry end. It is my preferred method primarily because it is most accurate fir most coffee yet decaf coffee can be challenging. Then it is best to use both color and temp as a guide. I call dry end when there is no green left in the beans.
Third is smell. When you go from
A grass like smell to a hay smell, that is another sign you have reached dry end. This method is usually used with one of the other methods to verify the end of dry.
Marking the dry event accurately is important if you are trying to chart your roast phases, which sounds like you are doing. Air roasting usually has shorter roast times compared to a drum roaster but the phases are still applicable.
Got it . But how can you guess the right time you would allocate to each phase when you get a new coffee ?
@koreishite, depending on your roaster, roasting environment, beans and roasting style, times will vary. The best thing you can do to determine times for each phase is to first understand how your roast can perform. If you already have a history with your roaster, you and all factors are the same except the type of coffee, then it comes down to knowing how your specific coffee will respond to heat. Coffee that is more dense can handle higher temperatures. Less dense coffee absorbs heat quicker and is more prone to roasting defects. My video about how to find and buy great coffee explains a lot of that. Ultimately if you are roasting the with the same machine and all perameters are the same but the coffee, your temperature range may vary by + - 30 degrees..... So, if you charge your roaster at say 380 degrees for a washed ethiopian, you may charge at 365 for a dry process ethiopian from the same farm. I hope my response has been helpful.
@koreishite, as far as phases and times go, watch my video "3 tips for new home coffee roasters". This should give you an idea of my approach to coffee roasting. It isn't the only way to roast. If you like dark roasted coffee then this profile probably won't be the best approach but again, it is a starting point you can modify.
Are you looking at ET or BT for your charge temperature?
Lots of people use the PID. I use a combination of the ET and BT and my temps are based on my roast profile as well as the Renan and processing type. I generally like a higher ET so I can soak
Another great video Mike congratulations I was wondering if you have or can share a link to coffee roasting with a Toper Cafemino 1 kg gas? I have one abd struggling a bit as is an old model without a link to a laptop to use Artisan, so Im manually taking readings but sometimes is too much to deal with. Thank you
Mario, I found this link. Can't speak to the temps, profile, instructions from that video BUT I do have a couple of suggestions for you to help not be overwhelmed. I'm assuming you are using Celsius right? All of these comments focus on getting to know your roaster and how it performs. With some practice you will get more comfortable. Simply break down your focus on the 4 main events (charge, dry, first crack and drop).
Your charge temp is really important because that will determine how much horsepower you have. OK, here we go:
First, always warm your roaster up for a good 20-30 minutes to about 5c above your planned drop temp. This ensures the roaster is warmed up.
Next, based on your experience with your gas settings and charge temp, try and find the settings that will get your coffee from charge to dry end to be about 5-6 minutes. I'm curious how long it takes for you to get to dry.
Then, once you have those settings figured out, your next experiment will be to reach first crack. Not fast, so you will most likely back off on your heat so you can reach first crack around 8 or 9 minutes.
Lastly, just at the earliest signs of first crack you should make your next gas adjustment a little lower so your coffee will continue to crack but not a fast cracking session, but a nice slow consistent cracking. Start smelling the coffee with the trier. After aboutAfter about 2-3 mintutes (your color and smell preferences) drop the coffee
That is a starting point. If you need more specifics just reply back.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thank you Mike you mentioned a link but can’t see anywhere here in the comments, yes I work on celcius, fyi what I first do is measure the coffee density as per your video at the moment practising with a washed Fazenda Formosa from Brazil with density of 730. Was given a few kgs but no idea how old the beans are so my charge is at least at 205 to 210 degrees for 1 kg Green beans. They reach min temp at 1:30 minutes 100 degrees and start climbing up steadily at 10 degrees per minute to dry end at 7:00 minutes 147 degrees (When beans are yellow not more green but would like more details on this) reaching first crack at 10:00 minutes 170 degrees the switch off burner and open 100% exhaust. So from 1 kg im left with 860 grams - 14% loss and the Tonino colour meter shows 76.4 (Full City). My overall issue is that Im taking readings manually and want to connect to artisan but neeed to add an additional thermocouple will need to drill an additional hole to add one up to connect to Artisan. Also keen to gear from other Toper Cafemino machines btw very robust for 1 kg just mine is an older model. Cheers from London UK
Mario, the coffee roasting timer app can be found here:
coffeeroastingtimer.github.io/
Those beans are low density. You didn't say what your dry end time was. I am editing this comment because originally i said your FC time was too long. I'm curious, share your event times if you don't mind.
By the way, easiest way to determine dry is when there is no green. Whatever you do, just be consistent from roast to roast.
Thank you Mike I doubled checked the density of the beans (Brazilian Fazenda Formosa) by filling a 1 litre container (1,000 millilitres) and the beans weight 730 grams thus “High Density” I don’t have any more information about these beans apart that their process is washed.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab In my last roast 1 kh charged at 210 celcius, I reached Dry End @ 7 minutes and FC @ 10:30, dropped @ 12 minutes. Roast coffee weight 863 grms (13.7% less from 1 kg Green beans)
What roaster is that you use?
Hi Norm, my primary roaster is the Mill City 500 gram sample roaster. It is a 2017 version. They have changed the design and increased the price. I paid about 3,000 for mine and they are like 7,000 now. I also roast on a SR540 FreshRoast, Behmor 1600 Plus, and a Hive. How about you?
Another very important video - I still do not know how to translate RoR from F to Celsius. Is 20 in F 10 in C ? Is there a formula?
Yes, I also experienced first crack directly passing into the second crack. Another problem is getting burnt beans when the green coffee is a natural with some very ripe beans. On the other side the mass may be underdeveloped. Another important question is, where the maximum ET should be reached.
This magenta correction line is certainly cursory and not an exact limit for this coffee!?
Erhard, to determine your Rate of Rise in Celsius you write down your temperatures every minute in Celsius. The difference between the first temp and the second is your number of degrees increase per minute in Celsius. Rate of rise should be used as an indicator of your roast progress. When you calculate temperature number 2 to temperature number 3 you can calculate that rate of rise AND then compare your rate of rise between the first minute and the second. This will give you a picture of your roast progress. You continue to track temperatures throughout the roast.
Now, you take that data and apply it to the 3 phases we have been talking about. For example, in the first phase (dry phase) you will more than likely have a higher rate of rise in the first couple of minutes. If you know approximately when your beans will turn from green to full yellow, you can use your rate of rise to understand an approximate time when you will reach dry end. Does that make sense? So first things first, start tracking your times and temperatures. Then when you have done that you can make a graph of your roast curve and then mark your milestones on that graph which are:
charge (when the beans go into the roaster)
turning point
dry end
first crack
second crack (if you roast that dark) and then drop
Once you do that, consider the 3 phases or roasting video and and also watch this one again and it will start to make more sense.
Thank you , I do know what RoR is and I use Artisan and its statistics to get the results - what I would like to know is whether you have special aims for the ROR in the 3 phases and how to translate from Fahrenheit to Celsius, as it is a relative data (increase of temperature/min)? what is e.g. 20°F / Min. in Celsius? the same? For me this is a difficult equation.
@@erharddinges8855 go to google. Type in the search box 20f to c. Hit return. You will get the result you’re looking for.
Thanks for the clarification Erhard. Every roaster performs differently. Altitude, ambient temperature in the room, the type of pre-heating you do with your roaster , the starting charge temperature, exhaust temperature, how long you soak the coffee after charge, and even the coffee itself can all influence the ROR your machine is capable of.
Because of this I can't tell you what ROR you should be aiming for in either Fahrenheit or Celsius. What I can do is share my target Rate o Rise targets during my roast using my profile I use often.
I like to hit my max ROR during dry which is about 24. From dry end to first crack the ROR will decrease with my target at first crack around 12. From first crack till I drop the beans I like my ROR to slowly go down and drop the beans with a ROR around 7.
So, as far as converting F to C, why don't you change your artisan settings to Fahrenheit for one roast, using a previous roast in the background that you did in Celsius? That way Artisan will do all the work and after the roast you can change your settings back and see. Maybe you can simply make the change from Celsius to Fahrenheit without even having to do a roast and it will display your old roast in Fahrenheit? I'm not sure about that but it is worth giving it a try?
Thanks for your input Matthew!
It’d be delicious to me. Lol
That's a good point Jason. Many like a darker roast. 😀
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I’m very happy to hear that my roaster should clear customs today and hopefully ship out to me early next week. Looking forward trying all the stuff I’ve learned from you.
too many handsigns guy! wtf
Thanks for sharing your comments Tom. I'll try not to use as many handsigns in the future.
Just be sure to not watch Scotty Kilmer's channel!