5 Ways Turning Point Benefits Coffee Roasters
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2024
- 5 Ways Turning Point Benefits Coffee Roasters
There are 5 Ways Turning Point Benefits Coffee Roaster and we discuss all of them here in this video. Recently we discussed how important it is to identify coffee roasting events and turning point was one of them. It is a coffee roasting event that some people don't know about and many others simply ignore. The reality is turning point can help you understand your coffee greens better.
Video Timeline
0:00 5 Ways Turning Point Benefits Coffee Roasters
1:04 What is the Turning Point event while roasting coffee?
3:11 Can turning point help me pick the correct charge temperature?
3:59 Turning Point can tell a roaster how green coffee is responding to heat
5:53 Turning Point can give us a second chance to correct our roast!
7:52 Turning Point data can suggests dry end & first crack behavior
10:45 The pace of the roast is revealed by Turning Point data
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Novice home roaster here. Your channel is fantastic with the vast amount of knowledge. Glad to see you sharing it with the world. Years ago, people held their knowledge hoping they'd be the smartest person in the room. Glad to see a shift in that paradigm.
All this said, I now understand why my local roasters generally just have four or five choices. So many variables and I'm guessing they've dialed in their best five beans.
Thanks for your comment and for watching Bert. I'm glad my content is helpful for you and other home coffee roasters!
I don’t understand why you don’t have hundreds of thousands of followers. Excellent video. What’s your view on a soak, such as that described by Scott Rao? Do you incorporate that into your roasts or have you talked about this in another video? I suppose soaking in a kaleido may not be as effective as it would be in your Mill City given the style of drum they have. I have successfully ordered an M1 and am looking forward to working with a drum roaster.
That’s exciting. Congrats on the M1. Yea, the Mill City was a different technique at charge. As I would preheat the MC500 to the target temp, I would always end up with a higher ET than the BT. Sometimes it would be 50 degrees higher. So, at charge I was able to soak because I had time to let the Et drop with gas off and still have enough momentum to reach my target dry time.
The Kaleido auto system will easily reach its charge temp and both ET and BT are within a few degrees. The soak technique isn’t really needed with the M2.
I love the fact you're putting this stuff out there. I really mean that. But... I think you over complicate some things. For instance, in this video, you talk about the turning point being an indicator of bean density - wouldn't an easier way to find out about bean density be to measure bean density before you even warm up your roaster? That, alone, is a much better indicator of bean density. But then once you establish the actual the density, and assess where you expect that to take you for charge temperature, you can then use the turning point as your validation point (which you do discuss). I find it much clearer to state you're working from an actual density measurement to predict how you will start the roast, and then see whether the coffee reacts as per the expectation (and adjust accordingly). I am very glad you pointed out that this is not an actual decrease in temperature - and importantly for different machines or even the same machine types with different measurement systems, the actual turning point number is just the measurement catching up to the temperature increase of the coffee, and even a changed probe can alter the responsiveness and hence the time and temperature the TP is observed.
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Hello Brett, thanks for watching my video. I appreciate your sincerity and agree that measuring bean density will inform the operator of an appropriate charge temperature as well as the behavior of the coffee during the roasting process and more.. I know I mentioned bean density as a variable but talking about measuring bean density and incorporating that into the talk would have been helpful. The nice thing about CZcams is I can organize my videos by topic. So, as I add new videos I can shuffle them around in various play lists to compliment and complete a theme.
I am amazed at the number of people that watch my videos and are thirsting for good solid information they can use to improve their skills. That is one reason why I started this channel. Not that my information is the best OR always right. I have enough humility to know that there are many people out there who are much smarter and more skilled than I am at roasting. I have a lot to learn about roasting, that is for sure.
Some of my greatest challenges with these videos, other than my experience level, are just the shear amount of thought and time to plan, prepare and produce each video. I know my presentation abilities are average because there is a ton of editing to fix things I have said OR the way I say it haha. Then, just putting myself out there for others to agree, disagree, ask questions, and to interact with all of that is a little overwhelming. So, I aim to learn, grow and improve through each of these experiences. Along the way I am able to help some and learn from others. I also get to make new "coffee roasting friends"!
Another challenge is the home roaster audience. If you look at who is focusing on the home coffee roasting audience, you will find that most are people who want to sell something to you. Others make a few videos and then disappear. I saw a gaping hole in the need for helpful information home coffee roasters can build on. But, this audience is such a diverse group of people with various skill levels and roasting devices that it is difficult to craft a video that will be understood by everyone. The reality is it isn't possible. So, I have been carefully crafting videos that will be helpful to the newbie as well as maybe an intermediate roaster like myself. One video at a time, including basic principles, some roasting theory, practical tips etc.. I have about 45 videos I have made so far and there are many more on my list including "Bean Density".
So, I continue onward and forward. I am thankful for your comment and know that your constructive comments are meant to help improve the message. I really do appreciate that. Please feel free to share other constructive criticism as well as topics you think would be helpful for my audience.
One more thing. I may have asked you before, but what type of roasters have you used and what are you currently using?
Thanks again for watching AND for your suggestions Brett!
Very important information! Early adjustments are essential.
Thanks for watching Erhard!
Revisiting my last roasts I observed that comparison of TP in different roasts with different beans (soft and hard ) can make sense only, if applying the same charging temperatures. For me it is practicable to choose a certain charge temp.8 180°C) and to try to achieve ca. 150° C BT in 5,5 min. Comparing the gas values needed for this goal show me the thermal behaviour of the different beans.
Really like the video Mike. Of course, I cannot apply it to my roasting at all since my Behmor doesn't have a bean temperature sensor (probe, infrared, etc.). But I am am very intrigued at how the turning point information can reveal so many things about the roast and about the coffee. I had never heard of that before, but I will certainly have to apply it when I get a roaster with a bean temp sensor. Thanks!
Yea, unfortunately it isn't possible to get that info on a behmor. I guess one way you could measure what is happening to the beans would be to monitor the difference in ROR during the first couple of minutes. While different, it may shed a little info on how your roasting time to dry end might be different, mostly because of the preheat temp and how much heat loss you experience loading the beans after prewarm..... ???
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Good idea Mike, I never thought of that!
Very informative Mike
Thank you Shane!
I faced with Columbin beans it was so fast I charged at 220 it was high density about 750
After 1 minutes Temperature was 176 and its still dropping slowly until reaching 165 at the fifth minutes
After that's is come to go up , first cracking was at 8 minutes as its reached already 190 degrees at that's moment
And second cracking was at 10:35 at Temperature 211
And dropped the beans at 11 minutes with Temperature 218
What I got a medium Dark Roast looks great but it's was very fast
That's gives me a good reference which Temperature I will go for next Roasting 🤙
Hello @BEANS, What type of roasting machine are you using? How much coffee are you roasting per batch?
Hello. Your videos are the most informative I've discovered on the web and I greatly appreciate them.
I've been considering taking up home roasting and have a friend with an SR800 who has done nice, City+ roasts on organic, dry processed Yrgacheffe from Sweet Maria's. My problem with this system is that I don't know how to interpret the information (bean color/movement and that temperature reading) available and necessary to establishing a roast profile. Secondary market folks allow one to drop a thermistor into the roasting bean mass, but expect that this is measuring a mixture of air and bean temperature. My friend's roasting profile is a list of timings and temperature/fan speed settings. I don't know how reproducible this is and the roast is ~ 8 min, which seems to rush drying and browning.
Even on your barrel roaster, I'm not sure what bean temperature really means. The only way I know one could measure bean temperature would be to place a wireless thermister inside a bean and, while possible, it's absurd. It doesn't matter if it the "BT" thermistor is consistently located, precise and allows for reproducible roasts following establishment of a roasting profile. With the SR800, even with an inserted thermistor, I'm not certain roast profiles, particularly rate of rise would be reproducible or precise. Could experiment, but I don't want to waste the money to find out whether it's possible to establish reproducible roast profiles. Haven't seen anything online to convince me that this is possible using Artisan.
I've become convinced that a gas-fired barrel roaster is the best way to go, but am keeping an open mind. OTOH, I've found a great roaster using a Proaster THCR-06 that reproducibly brings a similar Yrgacheffe to Full City roast and it is exquisite. The thought that I could match this with a two-knob air roaster just doesn't register.
You've got me thinking about home-roasting, though. Looks like a ~ 15 k$ entry fee, though, for a full set-up like yours.
Hello Birdland Bill, I appreciate your thorough comments regarding the strengths and weaknesses of the home roaster you were considering. The 8 minute roast is not too fast for an air roaster, although i don't know what those phase times look like. If you were to buy my setup here in the USA today it would be about 8k. I paid about 2,700 when I purchased mine. The current model is much better. It has a double walled drum and automatic capabilities. I'm not sure what they have done with the other systems but all in all you end up with newer technology.
Speaking of technology, I would recommend you start with something more tangible so you can experience coffee roasting. One of the best manual roasters that monitors bean temp is the Hive digital dome. You can see that roaster in action by watching my video "taking control of your roast". Yes, you are shaking a popcorn popper of sorts but it is much more and can give excellent roasts. You are in for under 200 bucks and you can experiment, learn and enjoy the process along the way. If you want to get into a drum roaster that connects to artisan and is a brand new device with a warranty, consider the Bullet made by Ailio and offered by sweet marias. It isn't cheap but it is both a manual roaster and a smart roaster which can follow a pro-programmed profile. There are plenty of other roasters out there like the SR800 or the Behmor, both of which are great for a home roaster BUT if you are looking for a complete system that can roast over a pound of coffee per roast, look at the Bullet. It is electric by the way.
I would start with a fairly inexpensive roaster to see how and if you like roasting. That is my two cents. I hope it is helpful.
Thank you for your kind encouraging words and for watching my videos. (by the way, my comments assume you are here in the USA). Not sure of availability of any of these products in other countries.
This is great info for a limited segment of the home roasting community. How would this be applied to those using an air roaster like a SR800 which doesn’t include a charge temp?
For my roasting my bean temp is reading around 300 at about 3-3.5min using the same initial setting for drying. I suppose some second phase adjustments could be made if this is way off for a particular bean.
Yea, unfortunately it isn't possible to get TP info on your an air roaster. Are you able to monitor rate of rise on your roaster? At least the temp display (whatever that represents)? So if you have a bean that is hi density compared to a low density, how might that look differently in your roaster? I'm curious. The only air roaster I have used is a hot air popper.
The ROR could shed a little info on how your roasting time to dry end might be different. The assumption is that the room temp has remained consistent between roasts, the pre-warm temp is the same, the coffee batch size and the beans are the same. You are seeing differences in temp rates which will indicate if the roast is moving slower or faster compared to other "like" roasts.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab That’s what I was referring to. I use Artisan and know what is typical for “normal” beans in terms of time and temp for DE. If this shifts I can know that there’s a difference in density that I need to adjust for in the rest of my planned profile.
Given that decaf beans are a darker colour would you say that using turning point could help in determining dry end beginning and length of roast?
Yes, sort of. Color is always going to be a problem with decaf. But, in the context of roasting pace you could say that turning point could help understand your decaf beans behavior. After getting a few roasts of that coffee behind you, the turning point data will give an early reference to your "normal" turning point time and ultimately your predicted target time for dry end. I didn't really mention that in the video but the turning point data can give you a pretty good "guestimate" of what your dry end time might be. If 258 F at 1:24 is a typical temp and time for that coffee and dry end takes place at 4:55 then if you roast that coffee again, all things remaining the same, and your turning point temp is 260 at 1:26, then generally speaking your roast is on track to hit dry end at4:55 ish. That is why familiarizing yourself with the turning point data is so important. Once you experience a dozen different turning point data you will begin to see patterns and there will be fewer surprises AND you will know how to respond / make changes to put you back on track.
Ok! I have been playing around with some things regarding this lately, so this was a fun video.
So let's say I aim for the turning point to happen around a minute and a half into the roast. If the turning point takes 3 minutes instead...(don't worry, I'm not actually having this problem, just curious) would I want a higher charge temp to achieve that minute and a half goal? Or would I drop in at a lower temperature instead?
Thanks in advance!!!
And great video!
Hi Jesse, thanks for watching and for your comments. There are a few variables you didn't mention so I will try and give your answer among them......
1. Generally speaking, a higher charge temp will provide more thermal energy to the roast and therefore provide a faster turning point.
2. You didn't state the power setting during this first minute and a half. On some of my videos I am doing a soak (when i use the drum roaster). Assuming the power level is the same then yes, a higher charge temp will provide a faster turning point.
Now, we have not talked about variables like airflow, batch size, coffee you are roasting is the exact same......... If all of these variables are the same, generally speaking a higher charge temp will mean a faster turning point. We also didn't talk about the type of roaster. If we are speaking about drum roasters, then yes, all of the above applies. If it is an air roaster or something other than a drum roaster, we would need to revisit your question.
I think charge temperature provides a couple of really helpful tools for a home roaster. First, the charge temp we pick can impact roasting defects. So, paying attention to this is really important. We should be looking at our beans after we roast to see if we are pushing the heat too much. Second, as I mentioned in this video, turning point, as it relates to charge temp is a huge indicator of my roasting momentum. It provides some great information that I can use instantly to correct my roast and set my "pace of the roast" where it needs to be.
I hope that info was helpful and answered your question.
I’m not sure where I got my charge temperature but I have been using 270 because of the amount of time I wanted to take to DE. It sounds like I should use a hotter charge temperature (about 400). The heck of I know. Lol. I do see a reduction in temperature (177) for about 30 seconds but then It is higher than 270 (about 295) on the 1 minute mark. I’m not sure how to read my data. I certainly do (as you recommended in my previous requests for help) keep track every 30 seconds and I use a laser (IR) reader to take my temperatures.
Maybe a hand written example like many of us use or is this already in your previous video demonstrating how to read out data for turning point?
Perhaps
Turning point might a difficult to monitor without a digital logging system. So, for the Popper, you have already determined a temperature that will help you get to dry end within a specific time. That is good news.
Air systems roast faster than a conventional coffee roaster so you will need to do some experimenting (as you have been) to determine if your total roast length improves your cup. So, if your total roast time is 8 minutes, what would your cup taste like if your total roast time was 9 minutes? The percentages can remain the same OR you could shorten your dry time percentage a little to say 40% and then give the brown phase and the development phase a little more time.....
The sky is the limit and you will need to experiment. It is positive news that you are able to control your roaster. That is a great thing.
As far as charting, I show that on my last hive roast (take control of you roast) as well as the Behmor video (Behmor roast recipe).