Mill Soft Jaws: The Proper Way to Make and Use Them - Haas Automation Tip of the Day
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2024
- In this Tip of the Day, Mark tackles a subject that anyone who has ever used a mill will appreciate: How to properly make - and properly use - mill soft jaws. From how to machine them so they grip your part properly, to methods for keeping unwanted taper out of your jaws, Mark covers it all. Every mill machinist MUST watch this episode!
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Mark Terryberry has to be the most gifted instructor I've ever seen. And I have seen many. High School Power Mechanics, Pre-employment Mechanics, 4 yrs Apprenticeship, 10 Yrs John Deere Training. Keep up the good work Mark and consider teaching if you get tired of this gig.
As a baby machinist, your videos have been incredibly helpful. Thank you for the time and dedication you put into these. They are greatly appreciated.
This is one of your best videos to date!!
You explained extremely well what people should know when making soft jaws.
Another winner! Adding this to our internal training program...
Another absolutely fantastic video, you guys are beast (slang for good). Keep em coming
Great video, keep them coming. I am using some of these with my adult cnc apprenticeship students & will also in the future with my youth apprentice students.
Awesome video. I was new to making soft jaws and ran into Carve Smart jaws. They are superb.
Great video. I'm new to CNC machining and this was very helpful.
Really like the way you present these videos Mark !
Me too!
Usually, when I make aluminium jaws I make sure there's a hole on the left/right side for a hardened indicator pin so it'll index on the side of the vice's stationary jaw. Basically, it means for me that I can save work offsets. If you tend to (re-)move the vice regularly it might be a problem.
Ok that datum hint was brilliant can't believe I didn't know that. Down side of having to work your way up without an apprentice ship program
Dominic - The locate-on-datum thing really changed the way I built fixtures. Rather than blaming the operator for miss-positioned holes, I started taking a hard look at my fixtures. For production, I’d even rotate one of the parts 180° if running on a Double-Lok, double station vise, just so both parts could locate their datums against the center fixed jaw. When running engine blocks, a lot of care was taken to locate on the datums, even if that meant locating off of the mains (crank bore), this was shown to me by some engineers I have a great deal of respect for, and it made running good parts so much easier. - Mark, Haas Tip-of-the-day
Haas Automation, Inc. Thanks for the reply! Your doing great work
A brilliant way to counter vise lift!! Work WITH the lift; not against it. I wish I had seen this 6-months ago.
Really good advice on soft jaws. They are one of those things that can be a little tricky or daunting at first but once you learn them you wonder how you survived without them! Also good advice on DIY jaws cranking them out ASAP. The only thing I will say is if your a hobby machinist with a small machine it maybe actually more efficient from a time standpoint to just go out and buy some soft jaws for your machine vs trying to make them but that all varies on what equipment you have. In my case it was a benchtop CNC mill so power and rigidity were sorely lacking.
Yep, unless you stock the correct size aluminum bars the cost difference for buying one bar or the equivalent number of jaws that could be made out of that one bar is not much. I use no aluminum now days so it doesn't make sense to make my own anymore. When I worked at a shop that used a lot of aluminum I used to make soft jaws for mills and laths, lathe soft jaws are very handy as well but do take more time to make.
Always good stuff Mark.
Enjoyable learning.
I’m new to milling- everyday is a school day
As always great tips there Mark!!!
Funny when you just can't see outside the box. I used to make soft jaws often, but now can think plenty of situations where simple soft jaws would have helped a lot, but just got so used to building screw jigs that forget whole soft jaws. Real irony is that I use soft jaws constantly on rotary table. This video really hit the spot as eye opener.
holy shit. how is this so good!!! you guys are amazing. i will definitely buy a HAAS once i get a CNC
Very informative, thanks Haas.
Sandpaper in the jaws or grit blast the jaws and it will help with part pullout as well (when surface finish isn't an issue)
Good stuff, right on and thanks for sharing.
Superb video thank you!
Good stuff, Maynard !
Thanks Haas tip of the day.
Very informative. Thanks.
Thankyou, how refreshing!!!
thank you for a great informative video!
Another great video thanks for the quality content.
Thank you Haas.
I bet this guy was really good to work for. Does stuff the right way the first time!
Explained very well 👍
Thanks for the video.
I really enjoy your vedios and you have great presentation.
When possible, I make mine 1.875" high so that the mounting holes are in the center. Sometimes I'll machine grooves in both jaws to help align them when using them later on. Just tap a parallel into the slot and tighten the jaws. With tall jaws I'll put a K clamp or two on the top edge to clamp out deflection. Ok for smaller runs, but tedious for long runs.
Great video.
This is some good info :)
Great video! Thanks
Good idea. We always did these by edm to get them precise
Wow, I guess if you need perfection but most mill operations do not need that level of precision.
좋은 정보 감사합니다.
great video!
Good job!
Thanks i will try this 👍
I feel like you should have mentioned using a torque wrench for repeatability. Also...Great video!
This. And that if you really want to maintain true zero, it is useful to use an indicator to measure and compensate for the flex that fixed jaw will do when clamping. Especially with aluminium soft jaws.
IMO it's a matter of tolerance. I regularly hold +-.001 without a torque wrench in steel soft jaws. Any tighter then that I would use one. Absolute perfection is awesome but engineers (well good ones) spec tolerances so that anything in that range will assemble and perform it's task.
Interesting point.
I've always wished the shops I work in would use a torque wrench for consistancy's sake. Of course, most don't service their jaws regularly so that they're smooth to clamp with.
Mark is the man! Met him today, even better looking in person 🤪
Dawn of Defense - “This is Mark Terryberry, and I approve of this comment”. Awesome, thanks Ben. It was great meeting you, you’re making some cool parts. - Mark, Haas Tip-of-the-day
Haas Automation, Inc. lol awesome! Hope IMTS went great! Will be in contact soon about purchasing some machines 🇺🇸
If you couldn't guarantee a square cut, would it be practical to cut a dovetail or relief so that the corners of the part sit in a cavity? Kinda like over sizing your radii to ensure your part is wedged fully
soft jaws are great. i love them and it makes fun to make some :D
My favorite trick is to cut my step deep enough to allow me to use parallels.. that way when swapping soft jaws you won't have to shim or recut to maintain parallelism
nice info thanks.
Very good!
All the jaws I have thrown away that were used only on one side... Thanks !
Nice tips. I just have 1 note: If you're running tight geometric tolerances like parallelism , you may need to re-shape your soft jaws, because 99% you will have 'Z' height variance between mov and fix jaws, every time you take off of vise.
GoD-Now - I like it. That’s a good point. I started putting the program to re-cut my soft jaws right into my main program, after the M30. This way, even years later, if someone runs that job again they can re-kiss those jaws and make them perfect again. Thanks for the comment. - Mark, Haas Tip-of-the-day
@@haasautomation Thats one I haven't learnt yet. Thanks Mark!
Traduscan los nos sirve a nosotros q somos de otros países muchas gracias por todo haas son unos genioss
He’s great.
On soft jaws I would mill with a dovetail end mill to finish with a .005 deep and .015-.020 in the jaws in case a burr or chipped end mill tooth was missed.
Can you do speed , feed and chip load for several tool??, end mill with diffrent flute, split saw insert cutter, dill, reamer. Well, may be I ask too much but if you can do it it will be great
Tuan - Check out czcams.com/video/gTnkNHB7dss/video.html, and see if this is what you need. The tool manuals should give us the Speed and Chip Load for each tool, then we can make use of the formulas we linked to. Thanks for the comment! - Mark, Haas Tip-of-the-day
Now I know what was in the briefcase in Pulp Fiction...Everybody knows John Travolta was a hobby machinist!
OK, joking aside, this is extremely important advice. Some might say that it's beginner stuff, but I have seen guys with decades of experience getting this wrong. Especially people who "grew up" on manual machines...
Kostas - I’m smiling. Tyler, the editor and behind-camera-talent on this one, was waiting to see how long it would take for someone to make the connection. “Vincent, we happy?”. Thanks for the comment. - Mark, Haas Tip-of-the-day
Haas Automation, Inc. Hahahahah! Well played ;-) . Cheers guys. Keep it up!
Agreed. Ever try telling them or showing them this trick? DON'T. It was like showing someone who always dug for water the lake 20 yards away and then watching them sneer and continue to dig for water.
excelent, now i only need the cnc machine
Hi Mark, thanks for the great video! I has a question about machining the profile into the jaws. Do you offset the profile by .001" or do you cut the profile exactly to size?
Hi Christopher, If you offset the profile in y plane you are technically not doing anything, you are simply making the part have to move 1 thou in either positive or negative y axis plane before the jaw touches the part, and if you offset in x, or diagonal x/y axis plane geometries, then they will then never touch or locate.... Therefore you make the profile exactly as is, however it's important to not locate on everything, but the critical shape and only offset some sides or areas that may cause conflicting geometries as shown in the video
This is assuming a y axis closing vice being the same with your y axis on your CAD software. The part will touch with 1 thou offset but you are then promoting higher torque to be applied , which then creates higher bending moment on jaws. Hope you are with me
Christopher - I used to offset the contour one way or another by a little, but anymore I just redraw the profile, making the corner radiuses a little larger for relief. If I don’t spend the time to make the radiuses larger, I will just machine the part profile exactly to size, and use a G187 P3 in my program. This is important (we’ll do a video on it), the G187 P3 will slow down the machine accelerations and tighten up the corner-rounding of the machine to give us perfectly cut and accurate corner radiuses. Check out G187 in the Haas Mill Manual for more information, or subscribe to this channel so you don’t miss the upcoming video. - Mark, Haas Tip-of-the-day diy.haascnc.com/user-guide
Cut to size using adaptive toolpath and then use D cutter compensation on the outer contour to open up the pocket to where the part just barely fits while the jaws are still closed. (Remember to have a small spacer btw jaws so you have clearance for clamping)
Daniel Machado - Brazil.
That was pretty good. I wish I had a cnc.
any suggestions on the vise type for using paper type material FR4 (for printed circuit boards)?The ideas is to reduce the thickness, by compression. These FR4 sheets are usually quite thin, around 50um to 150um, to reduce the thickness 20%, so to 40um (from initial 50um) or 130um (initial 150um).
A dovetail jaw can work, but the material will still bow if over tightened. If possible, I’d want to clamp multiple parts from the top down, or use a window fixture for that thin material. Sometimes, a dedicated vacuum fixture is perfect depending on the application.
Gold ! ! Hahaha... So good !!!
nice video. but im curious. on that dog bone part. how are you indicating that jaw in to make sure its square to the work bench?
David - Whenever we cut the jaws, we make sure that the vise is perfectly square. If the jaws are removed and reinstalled, we need to make sure that the new vise is squared up as well. For added verification, we could have milled a flat into the fixed soft jaw as well (when the jaw was cut) so we could indicate on it later to make sure everything is aligned. Everything else happened in the CAM system. - Mark, Haas Tip-of-the-day
Thank you for information, but I think using fixtures of job profile is the best way to avoiding deflection by jaw
Gold
Back and to the left! Back and to the left!
Good sir ji
As an amateur machinist, when you mention always try to use locate on datums, could you explain that a little, thank you.
In the video, when datums are brought up, look at the print. Look for the letters A and B in a box on the left hand side of the part. That is datum A and datum B. These features are used in the GD&T call outs also shown on the print. ( GD&T - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_dimensioning_and_tolerancing ) Everything has a tolerance. Lets say you have a hole with a distance tolerance of +/- .002" ( +/- .050mm ) and the over all part length parallel to that hole distance has a tolerance of +/- .015" ( +/- .38mm ) If you use the feature both distances originate from to locate your work, then once you set your Work Fixture Offset ( Commonly G54, G55, ect, ect... ) the hole position will stay in the +/- .002" tolerance. Now if you locate on the feature opposite the datum ( or origin if a datum is not used ) then the hole will not maintain the +/- .002" distance because the length tolerance is far greater than the hole tolerance. After reading this, watch the video again and pay attention to the second example shown why we locate on datums. ( Origins or Zero if datums are not used. ) If I could also impart another piece of sound advice... Learn GD&T. Read it, Love it, Live it. Don't read it like a novel, just recognize the characters shown and when you see one you don't know, study that single call out. After some time you'll understand most if not all of it. If you like being a craftsman, then the best understand GD&T.
Another way of saying it: Look at the part print (not just the one in the video): where are the dimensions to the particular feature of interest ( say a hole, for example) measured from ? From the hole center to _where exactly_ in X and Y ? A corner, for example? That corner then, constitutes the intersection of the the two datum planes - a point - one plane for X and one plane for Y. Usually we try to dimension all features from a particular point and NOT several _different points_ if possible. Hope that makes sense.
Yet another awesome video by you Mark, and by Haas. Thanks. BTW, the plural of "Datum", is "Data".
Different word. The backformations are, as a result, different.
No
Actually datum is the plural of data. I just double checked the dictionary definition.
Tomato-pototo😞
This is fixturing 098. If you have to be told this stuff you should probably be working in the inspection department. Your other vids show some meatier stuff though. They are all well done and I enjoy them.
Really? A guy who does not understand why we locate on the Zero reference is the guy you want measuring your work? I mean, if you're in +/-100 microns on average then ya I can see it. I average +/- 20 microns. You should see me for a lesson.
Hello, please a polish original subtitles for this Video. Thank You
So...i just chose to comment on the first video i selected. I know that some haas machines (depending on age) have a list of generic programs for jaw boring, flycutting, etc. Although its easy enough to hand key similar programs....i forgot how to access these programs. If u could remind me that would be great
Bill Wright look for a VQC page. If your machine has these options they'll be there
This is a year old video but I will still try my luck to get an answer.
I completely understand this entire video but my only question is. How do you machine the vise to the parts shape? CAD? or Do you machine the part -5. mm without actually being there and machine the vise?
Yes, we use the model in CAD to draw the outline of the part, and then machine out the inside of the contour, leaving a pocket for our part to rest in. You can also hand program the contour of the part, and use the G150 Pocketing cycle to program the pocket.
Your animations are awesome, what software are you using ?
SuperYellowsubmarin - I know, right! We’ll typically use Cinema 4d and Adobe After Effects for animations. Our Video editors/producers/graphic designers make these TOD videos what they are. A big shout-out to Tyler, Frank, Rick, and Scott whose hard work editing, creating graphics, and tweaking our scripts makes the magic happen. - Mark, Haas Tip-of-the-day
Not machining the surfaces that come in contact with the vise can cause repeatability issues if you are taking the jaws out and putting them back in.
When I make soft jaws, I do it in 3 ops. First, machine the surface that bolts against the vice flat with a face mill. Then rotate so this surface is against the fixed side of the vise and machine an 1/8" deep slot the width of the vise bed in the middle of the jaw, leaving and 1/8" wide tab on each side. This locates the jaw in its final position on the vise so you don't have to re-align both jaws when putting them back in. Make the slot just big enough that the jaw sits snug on the vise bed. Last step is to turn the jaw where your first flat surface is down and the slot is against the fixed side of the vise and machine your attachment holes.
You can't flip these jaws like you do yours, but they will be repeatable every time without any need for fine adjustment or setup.
Andrew - That’s a great approach. You have to be right, a cleaner mating surface has to give us better contact and repeatability, I just haven’t found significant repeatability problems using the clean extrusion, so for prototype and low-volume work I’m okay with raw aluminum jaws, if I’m cutting the shape in anyhow. WelLRoundeDSquareE’s comments below apply as well, we should take some pride in our work, show some Craftsmanship. I may be tipping to the always-square-your-jaws-up side. Thanks for the comment and sharing your experience. - Mark, Haas Tip-of-the-day
I do It in two. I square the back and top, flip in x, then skim the flash from the previous hold and do the holes. 3 minute cycle with aluminum blanks.
Instead of milling the 1/8" deep slot, could you ream 2 holes and fit dowel pins to locate accurately on the outside at each side of the jaw.
Just wondering if you can clamp on adjustable parallels? Or is that a big no no?
I think so, but I would not smack-down the material to set it, with a hammer. I’d be afraid if throwing the adjustable parallels out of adjustment
Yeah but I'm using the a axis indexer with a small chuck with a 0 to 90 degree shift on B. I checked the runout on the chuck itself. Got .0002 to .0003 max on the I.D. and O.D. but when I cut to size with a simple G2 or G3 interpolation program my runout goes from .002 to .005 on 2 out of the 3 jaws. WHY??
What type of steel and aluminum would you recommend for SJ's?
For aluminum 6061 is fine. And for steel u can go with 1018 mild steel. Unless you need something harder....but 1018 usually works pretty well...and its easy to cut
One thing you failed to mention is that soft jaws need to be machined again if you want to use them even if they are used for the same profile. Once you remove them from the vise, they lose their accuracy. Jaws will shift and move slightly every time you loosen them and tighten them up.
You can add features for realignment to have repeatability within a minuscule amount...
I understand the concern but I think you are over analyzing the idea of the video
What's a good tumbler.
ありがとう
0:10 This Old Tony has joined the chat...
Mark, you forgot to make a alignment cut along one side of the outside edges of your jaws. Makes it easy to align the jaws in X when you use them again. I just mill one side while making the jaws, when they are still clamped.
Not really needed as he explained. Tighten the solid jaw and leave the movable jaw just finger tight on the screws. When you clamp the part the movable jaw should move around on the screws and align it self to the solid jaw.
@@stevemccluskey7102 That's fine for parts that self align, but those are rare in my shop. For odd shapes that don't self align, alignment cuts on the jaws eliminate dents in the profiles.
@@stevemccluskey7102 And who leaves the floating jaw bolts loose enough for the jaw to float?!? Great way to get some chatter.
Tighten them after you get them aligned to each other....
I agree....but for some jobs its just better to cut new jaws each time if u have the resources
The slop in the jaw holes allow up to .010-.020 movement in X.
demandred1957 Wouldn’t it not matter, since you indicate off of the soft jaw anyway?
over torquing the mounting bolts will place the jaws out of position as well. Did you notice the tooling hole that was probed? Set your W.F.O. while programming to that hole in the jaw. and forget about the slop.
@@RandomNumber141 It matters when your job is complex shapes. If both jaws are not perfectly aligned in X the next time you run the job, it will not grip the part correctly, and may damage the part.
@@chrisjennings4569 Why would you over torque the bolts? But that is irrelevant to what I was saying anyway.
It matters when your job is complex shapes. If both jaws are not perfectly aligned in X the next time you run the job, it will not grip the part correctly, and may damage the part.
You can have a XY Zero point one one jaw, but >both< jaws have to be aligned in X.
@@demandred1957 I disagree with this thinking. The mobile jaw should not be counted on to repeat at any position. Therefore it should not be used to dial in or set up any job.
I draw the step with a sharpie and use the band saw to cut them. The boss loves it. ; ]
I guess you are not an engineer
Been doing exactly as this video for years except a couple of things.
Soft jaws are not much good for high accuracy components.
Mainly because the floating jaw has play in it so will twist and lift slightly.
But also the fixed jaw can wear causing a shift in the datum.
Also i always machine a new soft jaw for repeat jobs as its the only way you can guarentee perfect alignment
This depends on the part count per job, if doing hundreds or thousands then yes if twenty to forty not really needed.
Por favor necesito en castellano porque donde trabajo van adquirir una y necesito información gracias
Old video, but I have to ask out of curiosity: are we the only ones using modular vices? I don't think that one is better than the other, they are just different from each other...
It’s strange isn’t it. Even on our website, we sell modular vises in Europe, and these angle-lock style vise in the U.S. I’ve used both, and have been happy with both. I grew up with the Kurt Vise style, and have gotten used to the simple, inexpensive jaws that don’t lock in. We should do some side by side tests!
Radiuses... That hurt, man!
Radii!!!!! Ughhh, radii!!!!!
you gotta talk down so us dummies understand them there big words
Yeah, it kind of felt like "Datums"... (i.e. "Data").
www.dictionary.com/browse/radiuses Either can be used
He was not talking about points of data. Definition 2:
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/datum
8:17 cut right size part first setup
Plan on the worst looking part.... the first set up.
Dear sir plz make 2d chamfer programme plzz......i am waiting
Can someone please explain to me what a datum is? I'm new to this
It's the feature on the print that a dimension is called out from - which makes it the feature/edge we measure from and ideally, the feature/edge we locate the part against when machining.
@@markterryberry4477 thanks Mark! Keep up the good work!
Jahs.
6:58 Ah yes, the JFK jaws...
"Back, and to the left."
PERSONALLY i profile my jaws and cut all 6 surfaces. When you go to reuse them they repeat like crap if you use material as is. I also want to be able to indicate an end to be sure the shape in each half match up. In extreme cases I add a 1/4" dowel on the faces so it engages when setting up repeat jobs. Cutting corners NEVER pays dividends. Of course this is just my opinion, based on 40 years of being one of the best in the industry.
Well_RoundeDSquarE - Cutting all 6 sides definitely creates a more precise jaw, but for one-time-use jaws it doesn’t necessarily create a more accurate part. In the prototype world, it rarely paid off for me to machine all sides, surfaces that wouldn’t touch the part or vise, unless the extrusion came in really rough. By leaving the extrusion raw, and the ends sawcut, people knew not to indicate off of them - I didn’t want the ‘illusion’ of precision. If the jaws are machined, then they should be machined perfectly square (to what tolerance?), which was just more time then I wanted to spend for a one-time use set of jaws. I was working on maybe 4 parts a day, for a decade, so the shop floor felt more like a commercial kitchen with orders coming in and out than a machine shop. Then, on high-volume production, everything was tool steel, and ground. I see your point, and agree with you, but on a case by case basis. Thanks for the comment. - Mark, Haas Tip-of-the-day
I understand your point, I cut my teeth on prototype CNC, and it seemed my niche` was to always get the job with one piece of material and/or too big for the travel. I was never one to use soft jaws one time, and throw them away. I guess it just wasn't my style. I in no way was questioning your methods, rather adding my own take based on my experience. I'm sure I probably had another minute per jaw in my cycle time, but in the end I had jaws easily under 5 tenths tolerance. As i'm sure you know, it's just as easy to hold .0005" on a CNC with any decent tooling as it is .005". It's always been my practice to run +/-.005 parts inside of .0005". that was all the way back when machines had stepper motors with .0003/.0007 steps. Modern machines you can program and comp to 10 millionths, and see it on the part. Anyway, thank you for the reply, and thank you for taking the time to pass along our amazing trade. Craftsmen are a dying breed. I wish I could pass along all the knowledge and talents I have, it seems as though they will be going with me to the grave. A real shame considering I was (if not still) among the very elite programmer/machinists in the Bay Area, if not the country. I think the trade could really use a school where companies can send their top guys for higher level training in how to tool a job, how to fixture jobs, how to approach a part most efficiently, how and when to use or not use certain tools. So many shops and machinist are stuck in their ways, and have no creativity, no freedom in how they approach a part. Like you mentioned, building one off parts, your approach may be very different than tooling up for 1,000 piece run. I like to cross train as i did from the start. anyway, I've rambled on enough... keep up the great work. Peace to All.
Great reply. I’m about ready to tip to the always-square-up-your-softjaw-jaws side, as opposed to leaving them raw. In my small world (prototype shop at the time), we did things one way, but in general we always want to take pride in our work, deburr your parts well, square up your material. Just good practices. Great conversation. I’ve never regretted doing a good job on something, putting in some craftsmanship. Thanks. - Mark, Haas Tip-of-the-day
" I’m about ready to tip to the always-square-up-your-softjaw-jaws side, "
I will go one step more and make the C-bore just a little deeper then the thickness of the bolt heads. To get as much jaw material between the head and the vice. And then if the OCD is acting up I put a 0.150" by 45 deg. chamfer on the back side.
With the deep C-bores the jaw material will become distorted a little after a few uses forming a raised area around the bolt hole.
But as you have said for most jobs it does not make a significant difference, and when it does hardened and ground tooling is often justified.
These videos and the free training are part of what makes Haas stand out in the industry.
But I would like to have a chat with whomever decided it was a good idea to wrap the top edge of the front and rear covers on top of the table. Little chips just love to get in there and slice up my hand.
blow heart
可以加点中文字幕吗
So funny frist look
Haas are absolutely perfect if you can’t afford a proper cnc machine.
Daniel Machado - Puerto Rico
Daniel Muchado - Vietnam
In spanish- Dato
hahahaha..youre an almost actor
He's great, right?!