The Faulty Fiesta (Stall, No-Crank, No-Comm)
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- čas přidán 9. 08. 2022
- This 2012 Ford Fiesta was dragged in on a dolly from almost 6 HOURS away as an intermittent STALL, NO-CRANK. The PATS anti-theft light illuminates and communication is lost with the Engine Control Module.
After the diagnosis, the owner took it back and tried to fix it...but still had the SAME PROBLEM!
Is it a COMEBACK? What to do now??
THINKTOOL PROS:
www.amazon.com/dp/B08XXWHQVJ?...
Enjoy!
Ivan - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Hello Ivan, Just to add my two bits: the diagnosis is only one part of the equation. The second part is to prove it by effecting the repair. If after the repair it still had the same issue, then you would look further and hopefully find the issue and rectify it. In any case, you would have had full control of the diagnosis & repair. I feel the customer was obliged to come to you if he wanted further checks by you. I certainly do not believe you had to go to him on the road somewhere.
As it turned out, the customer chose to take it away, chose to settle for an repaired PCM, which is at best sketchy, chose to install it himself and chose to undertake the key coding in a way you know from experience would not work. If I recall correctly, you said in the previous video before this video, and other videos in the way past; that an used OEM computer would be more reliable than a refurbished one from a third party. Fortunately he did what you suggested over the phone and got a second key cut and then had it programmed.
I agree that you should not undertake work, or at least make it clear you won't warranty your diagnosis if you do not do the repair.
I agree completely. Aside from the obvious benefit in defense of your ability to uphold your warranty, it is the opportunity to continue work after an incorrect call that makes you an even better diagnostician. If you don't do the repair, you never get that chance. It's as much a strategic decision as a tactical one. I also don't think it's unreasonable to require that all warranty service be done at your location.
The only caveat was, if Ivan's diagnosis was correct, having the dealer install the PCM would have been a non issue as Ivan would have either had to use an aftermarket computer programming service or would have had to send the customer to the dealership to program the computer. As it was the computer was unobtainium from the dealership, so the customer was forced to get a repaired PCM and use the aftermarket computer programming service. I found it interesting that Ivan correctly diagnosed the programming failure was possiblity due to the software requiring two keys to complete the programming; sometimes being able to diagnose the repair is just as valuable as diagnosing the problem.
You should definitely make it mandatory that you do the repair for out of the area service. You need to know that the car is running and the diagnosis was correct before it leaves your shop. If they can't agree to that, tell them to not bring it.
You are correct... if they can't leave the car you should pass on the job. Too much heartburn otherwise.
Yes! That follow up stressed me out. Long distance customers are just hard.
When I think of the best diagnostic technician, I always think of & refer you Ivan!!!
Wow, another great diagnosis. You are a great teacher and thorough with your test. I learn something new every day. Great job Ivan !!!
Ivan you are one of the few people that continues to amaze me, like a world class magician, I never get tired of watching you work. Keith is great, Eric O. has his moments, yet your videos are not just educational they are entertaining as well. Great how you are helping so many people that otherwise would have to scrap their vehicles. Keep being a great human, we need more Ivan's in this world.
Nothing like watching ivan late at night while having a nice cold brew
I LOVE your thought process. How to warranty something when it comes from that far, it is more like a gamble game.
Excellent ! One of the best anywhere on CZcams. I am sure you learned to put your foot down applying your rules of engagement being the mechanic. Most people think that's it we know the problem now so let me just go do it myself when in many cases there could be, and there are other issues hidden to rectify the problem fully. Honestly I am very impressed by how you handled , diagnosed and told the story in facts. I have seen Ford dealership actually charging $1300- to $1700 dollars first just for diagnosis when it comes to wiring issues such as this one. I've been through that for a friend's car. And I said No way Jose ! And in about a week's time first time ever in a Ford I got the Ford Transit up and running. You are not just very honest but kind . That is all some people need to ruin your life. So be very careful in this little life we live. God Bless you brother.
Great diag as usual Ivan. I'm glad I live just over the mountain from you, what a great resource so close. BTW the diesel jeep is running great after your fix!
Ah the Diesel Liberty! One of my favorites 🙂👍
I just ran across this video and so I’m new to your channel. I subscribed as soon as you said “Oh no- we fixed the car!” in mid-diagnosis!
This video is the real life documentary of a diagnostic repair process that will eventually happen to anyone in this field of work. People need to see this side of the diag world too! Well done on this Ivan 👊🏻
Thanks Nick :)
Way to go Ivan. With the complexity of ECM diagnosis’, it can be very difficult to be 100 percent certain in all cases. I think you did all you could to come to a valid and evidence based diagnosis which turned out to be correct.
hi Ivan I keep scratching my head thinking if there is no other techs out there, you are great on what you do no question there, but does travelling pay!, now on this case you should not be obligated to travel the customer he declined the repair and installed a reman pcm, installation procedure counts towards problem.
I service automobiles at home too but I don't do house calls they have to come to me and I do diag charge for it and if they don't want the repairs done by me ok, later if they decide for me to do it with in 30 days I will give a discount. and that's the end of it.
Its great that you decided to make changes on servicing.
Ivan, great video. Calling a bad PCM is the toughest. There are so many variables inside that box that your can't see, control or test. What you really have is a bad computer making a call on itself and you're stuck believing that even though you know the computer is bad. Makes me crazy and I can see it's making you a bit crazy as well. Appreciate you so much. Thanks for Sharing!
Ivan, you are the man. i love watching your videos. i learn a lot from you. you really know what you are doing.
On fiesta here in UK programming a key by putting in ignition turn on off 4 times only programs door open close and boot. Immobiliser needs pats software to complete programming. I use freeze spray to see if that influences the pcm. I know you do sometimes. You are one of the best out there great job.
I agree about changing your terms on people dragging their vehicles long distances unless they take it away fixed. You can't honour a warranty on that, nobody can. Loved the follow up and solid diagnosis as always 👌🏻
Wow, i expected that the previous shop should have checked powers and grounds!! But you figured it out when you did the Keith tap test lol. Boom. Proof in the pudding! You're right, it's better to change the rules a bit of you want to work and stand by your work. I agree! Great video, Ivan! Many thumbs up 👍 👌
Well done Ivan 👍
Very nice to see it all worked out and you were correct in its diagnosis.
What, no component level/reflow the solder joint/NPR repair. :)
You definitely go above and beyond Ivan.
I heard one CZcamsr shop say he won’t work on older vehicles anymore due to lack of parts (and lack of OEM quality parts). As you know Eric won’t accept long-distance customers for the reasons you mention.
Awesome video as always!
Good call Ivan both on the problem and revising your long distance warranty policies.
Keep up the great work ethic. The auto repair industry is unfortunately littered with an abundance of unscrupulous repair people. It is refreshing to see there are still professionals with your standards and level of commitment in the industry. 2 tanks of fuel and 10 hours of time to bring g a vehicle to you speaks volumes.
Awesome video!! Your job is not easy! You have an awesome mentor in Kieth for sure! God bless ya Ivan.
I agree with just leaving the car that way it's fixed right and doing your own testing you might find another faiut which has happened many times in past videos again thanks for sharing your a life saver in helping everyone of us !!
I was originally thinking a shorted 5v reference. It would have been interesting to see if the reference voltage was dropping when it was acting up. We know ultimately there was an issue at the PCM connector. It may be worth unplugging the connector looking for bent pins, burned connections, corrosion, pin fitment issues and checking powers & grounds right at the pins since there is a lot broken wire failures close to the connectors.
Maybe that was done off camera… You never can be too careful. Great job on your diagnosis 👍.
Having been troubleshooting electronics for 50 plus years I would not be surprised to see that problem come back.
Thanks for making this one,IVAN.So the customer takes the car back broken still,gets the part you tell him SHOULD OR COULD be bad.tries it with only one key when it's known that 2 keys are needed for whatever reason.It fails to run.so he calls you .OK sounds fair,but then I'm guessing you told him ,GO GET ANOTHER KEY and also have that programed to THAT COMPUTER.And it worked.Perfect,the only reason you even doubted your diag is because YOU were depending on others with LESS SKILLS to do the actual repair.Thanks for showing us the issues that sometimes arise when repairing car these days.
When you said Flagship 1, I was thinking, here we go again with there junk. I'm glad the customer got a PCM that works. Great diagnosis.
Yeah, seems like I remember them being regularly problemmatic. Why keep using them - are there no other providers?
instead of junk parts they give junk instructions lol
They make sure they get you one way or the other. Lol
Ivan you did a great job as always. That customer should have left the car with you and you finish the work. It makes no sense to tow a car 10.0 hrs round trip and not complete a repair.
I like! Very helpful. I am waiting on a rebuilt computer for a 2010 Escape for a dead miss, no pulse to #3 coil, and NO AC clutch command. My Thinkcar told me I will need 2 keys! (Pros purchased on your recommendation ;-)) My Boss is skeptical of the need for 2 keys . And there you have it...Thanks again. I hope yougot a kickback on the purchase of my Pros on prime day, via the link on your page.
Good diagnosis. Hope the car stays running now. Plan on more parts problems in the future.
I did expect you @11:19 to follow up with a wire wiggle test at the connectors
I've had great success with the locksmith I've used since the 1970s when it comes to replacement keys, fobs and programming and they are about 1/2 the price of a dealer.
Friend You saved My life.....today I was about to sell My car For scrap😢..... I thank You from the bottom of My heart 👏👏👏
😁👍
I agree you start it you finish it. Especially when you are giving a Guarantee. Great work.
When a customer chooses to take their way it's really hard for a technician to guaranteed their work. The worst thing about that when things dont go right the costumer try to spill the beans on the technician.
In past videos, Ivan says he gaurantees his work if they use OEM parts if I'm not mistaken. I'd be holding true to that. If he works he should be paid. If he fails then they should bring it back to him. I'm curious to see the follow up to this regardless.
Well there simply has to be reasonable limitations on your guarantee, you made the right call thru diagnosis.
I had a BMW i diagnosed a bad blower motor, the customer took it to backyard joe , the new motor works but the customer wants me to fix the broken bits on the dash !
Can't make this stuff up 😂
feel fortunate I only live in the next county from you, however we are now temporarily living in Florida, very nice it is to, but do miss central Pennsylvania!
5 mile radius warratny time? Seriously the fact that you were willing to meet him half way is above and beyond anything anybody would reasonably expect. Happy you didn't have to!
That was wild! Such a tough call! I'd expect the problem in the computer to be mechanical (solder joint or broken component) if it responded to tapping. I can easily imagine a bad "new" computer having another issue, and would gotten stuck on that. I had no idea programming required 2 keys. This is obviously way over my head and something I know I shouldn't tackle! I am concluding my efforts on the golf cart controller with the automotive-like sensors and the CAN bus interface. I'll let the owner take it to the golf cart shop and let them declare the controller/PCM is bad, since I can't get my car scanner to talk on that CAN bus.
Enjoy the channel to bad you are not close to NH border , my 06 Cummins has a few gremlins the local shop can’t find. They are good at most everything except the strange out of norm . Keep up the great work
100 percent agree. I do some mobile marine work. It's the guarantee that is always in the back of your mind. OEM parts only.
@7:07 "Uh oh, we fixed the car. Damn!" 🤣
Despite what other diagnostic checks you could do on that P0607 code, as far as I'm aware, there is no other way to draw that code unless the PCM/ECM is suffering from some sort of internal software corruption. Maybe a bad chip or bad solder joint somewhere, or even damage to the PCB itself. The computer is failing or has failed and must be replaced. You certainly made the right call Ivan.
You definitely go out of your way to help and ensure you have a happy customer.
5:17 the chime is in the wrong key--E flat Major instead of A Major. Is that a clue, or just what it was in 2012?
I was noticing that too... not which key it was in but that it was a different tone LOL
Customer: this car starts sometimes but will stall for no reason. It's so frustrating!
Ivan: very cool.
you point out the main reason Eric O won't work on cars in the case you describe. If it quits in front of his shop is one thing but bringing it from far away and basically waiting on it can be a real pain especially when parts are hard to get. Certainly customer cannot expect you to go to him for free after coming to you. Your time is worth something.
Hy.I have a ford fiesta with the same problem.Same car as yours,and same problem,intermitent stall.The fix is to reflow the conector on the gauge indicator in the dashbord.The diagnosis is like that:you star the engine and while it runs tap hard on top of the dash behind the steering wheel.And the engine will stop because the imobilizer circuit runs thru the dialgauge computer. And the problem is the female side conector on the gauge,cracked soder joint.Reflow the solder and the problem is gone.
The initial problem was not an immobilizer problem. There was no security codes found on a full scan and there was NO communication to the PCM. However a similar problem may have happened afterwards…
@@ecaparts It is important to observe the dash indicators in the moment of stall.Especialy if the engine light is luminated after the engine stop.If is not ,the dash is not comunicating with the can network.On the car that i repaired allso i didnt found any error codes on any computer.The fault i discovered by observing the dash ligts at the moment of fault,and the fact that the engine speed dial was indicating 0 rpm while the engine was still running for few seconds.After that i decided that was comunication problem between dash and can and proceeded to recreate fault condition.Allso you must take in consideration the can switch witch is located in the zone of accelerator pedal.On ford the ac air filter is located behind accelerator pedal.So maibe when the last service was done they screw with the can switch.
@@nijloveanugelu Good to know. I would have expected other modules to have communication faults with the cluster, in your case, when it would go offline.
Great video, I can't do telephone diagnostics. Every now and then I get a customer calling trying to diagnose their car over the phone, not here.
Are those thinktool sunglasses Ivan? 😝
Nice job as always sir. I need to contact you about getting an upgraded PHAD transducer also 💪🏻
Nice job Ivan. Thanks!
As the problem was fixed or faulted with a tap the diagnosis could have been simple a dry joint. When I dealt with d/s I used a very powerful magnifier and quickly spotted the offending joint. Another great diagnosis and fault finding trail and can’t wait for the next one.
what is a dry joint?
@@jimphillips2380 Oxidisation occurs between the solder pad and the component that is being soldered to. This could happen during manufacture where the solder doesn’t flow properly and over time the joint can break down due to vibration or heat.
Ivan, ur AWESOME and I, agree completely with u for changing ur policy as always great diagnoses and approach learning from the best cheeeeeers.
I completely agree. If I'm hired to diagnose a problem, then let me repair it. Nobody's perfect and mistakes can be made. You were not provided with everything to prove your diagnosis and to complete the repair. You did what you could with what you had.
I've rarely had a multi set of keys (only three of my vehicles have had multiple sets, and two of them were non alarm/coded keys), just like there's almost NEVER been a full set of emergency tools, the manual, or even a spare. two vehicles ago, I had a mitsubishi where the ONLY key given to the dealer *was the valet key*! it developed electrical problems, of course, including a very curious one where, after running over a set of very rough train tracks, the turn signals would light up steady (including the internal indicators) and stay on untill shutting the engine down. this started to occur in VERY wet weather, and was quite handy for visibility during such. the vehicle is now parked because of a cracked frame, and is no longer an issue.
hi ivan had similar problem with a focus rs 2.5 throwing codes for throttle body and throttle pedal going into limp mode after the keith tap test on pcm codes would be able to be cleared and run good a brand new second hand pcm cloned from the original sorted it thanks for all your videos gave me the confidance to call pcm BIG THANKS
Ivan!
whut?
Everyone likes a happy ending! So to review the diagnostic protocol: when diagnosing a connector, do the Keith tug test, and when diagnosing a sealed component, do the Keith tap test. Got it.
Thinking Eric O has the right take on customers coming from many hours away...decline the job. It will create headaches for you and the customer if the replacement part goes bad , yada yada. Enjoying the videos, thanks very much
I agree with you. They should definitely leave the car with you until the repair is verified. Also idk if all manufacturers are the same but Toyotas will sometimes set a P0607 when the rear o2 is bad and going over 1v.
Ivan your a cool dude 😎 Thank You for everything.
Excellent video.
Ivan great call on the Diagnosis. Would it have been possible to open the computer and tried to reflow the solder? Being a Electronic Technician, I've seen cracked solder joints causing intermittent issues like that. That board lives in a very hostile environment full of vibrations and constant temperature changes. Great recipe for a cracked solder joints.
I did see they used plastic 'locks' surrounding the plugs to the PCM sockets, and if there was access to the internal circuit board containing the pin solder joints, I would re-work them. The old solder was the lead-tin alloy (40-60), but the new, with a higher melting point is a silver-tin alloy (5-95), (RoHS compliant). It is quite possible there are 'dry joints', with a 'crystalline' appearance.
Great video as usual. Would it be possible though for the PCM connector to have just had a fitment issue with a good PCM? Your ability to admit that you might be wrong is really a sign of great class and upbringing. You know what you do know but you're smart enough to know what you don't know. For those about to wrench I salute you!
Eric O. says he won't take any non-local jobs because of exactly the type of situation that happened with you. I've seen a couple of his videos where he seems to have violated that rule but it also appeared that the owners were willing to leave their cars with him for as long as it took. I think people with your skills are few and far between so you can set your own ground rules.
First, great diagnosis. Probably not that hard in this instance but really, anyone who comes from that far away had better be ready to spend a few nights or leave and come back. How are you supposed to know if the rebuilt PCM was any good and no way to check it from your home? This one worked out but I agree that customers must be prepared to leave the vehicle or you have to tell them that you cannot guarantee your diagnosis.
Nice video brother , thanks for sharing
I feel ya man- circumstances sometimes cause these unexpected issues, If you fix it at the 1/2 way point he owes you, if not then call it even & expense the mileage.
leadfree solder strikes again. If you have freeze spray and a little heat solder gun you can find the bad connection pretty easy.
Your right mate the customer should leave the car with you, and you need to say it could take at least a week to repair
The back order on parts is a problem in the ice cream manufacturing as well. Most of our venders tell us 8-12 weeks on parts minimum now.
Focus & Fiesta have ground problems. Almost every time I bought a Fiesta that was throwing codes galore. Cleaned up all body grounds and it ran perfectly.
😅 I know a couple of people that go back to bad grounds for everything 😅 test load the wires and see if there is an actual issue instead of aiming and shooting at blank point. If you're not a technician, this is acceptable but if you are, provide evidence, let the data guide you and you will be a successfully at troubleshooting anything. I do not go around chasing what I dont know, I have to have evidence and prove it before I can confidently say what is wrong.
You made the right call, and you're right about being sure about calling the PCM they're never cheep and programming must be done properly. Unless you do the repairs and verify the work is done to your satisfaction all bets are off, 5 hours away is too far to be f#+*+&$+ around
I hate these tricky situations. Not easy to let down customer, but he brought it on himself, by going away after diagnostic and not waiting for repair to be completed. Great that it turned out OK, after some hiccups, but customer was not right to pull out and then ask for help. I guess we all learn something from these cases.
I agree, if they choose to leave with the car, before the parts can be located , installed, and everything checked out to make sure its good, then its on them to figure out anything else that may be wrong.. either they bring the car back to you, or they wait until your going to thier neck of the woods.
Like the others... the task of troubleshooting isn't complete until it is fixed. Your educated drill-down isn't confirmed until it is!
I agree with you: the car stays until resolved.
A new rule is definitely in order. Even meeting half way at 2.5 hours is BS. If the car stays with you even if you made the wrong call you'll still have the car with you to dive deeper into it to find the real problem and rectify it. You said they wouldn't drive hours to come to you if it was a easy problem.... the guy that wasn't properly filling the trans fluid lol.
lool
We don't know everything on these complex pieces of machinery but we will find the issue. Sometimes substituting a known good part is a diagnostic method that needs to be done to confirm our suspicions. But I will say FS1 has a worse track record than Ivan does 💪🏻
Looking out for the next part of this saga.
Yes cool, happy ending Ivan!!! Dont doubt your genius, lol!
the 2011 and a ways back had a TSB for loose/crusty ground at the strut tower and it causes all sorts of issues and codes.
it wouldn't surprise me if there's not a flaky ground or power somewhere on the 2012 models playing games also, maybe only when wet/raining.
i bought my truck 500 miles away in a different state used. i asked about the warranty they gave me and was told they warranted it so they had to have it back to do the work. so i knew up front that unless i went back i had bought it basically as is. the fine print agreed as did thier states laws. so many people see the word warranty or guarantee and thats all they see.
Great diag !
Ivan, you should offer a package deal. Diag is part of the package. The package should not be fragmented into its own component parts. You weaken your product considerably by allowing your customers to wreck your commercial entity. The password should be as follows " all or nothing" Put your cards on the table and stick to it. No more subtle manipulation, intended or unintentional.
I believe you've made a wise policy choice. It's too easy to get painted into a corner when you let the customer take it back home before the job is completed and tested.
Ford PATS I did allow programming with a single key but that system hasn't been used since the late 90's. PATS II and up (some 1998 & 1999 models and anything 2000+) systems all require 2 working keys for customer programming (Dealer can program keys without any working keys)
My 2012 Fiesta ran fine for 11 years. Last week it would not crank and would not run. It's at the dealer now and I trust him to do it right. Good thing I'm unemployed.
Hi. I had the same problem right now. Please share with me, what's the cause of the problem.
Maybe I'm wrong but, I wouldn't trust an "internal failure" code to not be caused by power/ground glitches. Glitching an MCU can generally cause all kinds of weirdness. Seems like a danger point where one could just see that code, do a cursory check, and miss intermittent power/ground issues. Even tapping it like that could cause power to drop out if the PCM connector pins are bad or if there is a broken wire right next to the connector! It would be too easy to see that code and get lazy.
I have serviced a number of Dodge trucks which will randomly stall/no-start and throw a P0607.
PCM failure each time.
Agreed. Internal failure codes can be caused by voltage drops that screw with the internal logic.
And with tapping, as well, I always make sure I wriggle the connectors to rule out contact issues that can be shaken from the vibration of tapping.
Didn't you see him test all of the powers and grounds going to the pcm ?? I did.
@@charleshenshaw9099 I wasn't questioning Ivan?? Just discussing the subject.
@@charleshenshaw9099, I don't remember pin drag testing just front probe. I thought Ivan should have pin-dragged those connections. But who am I?
Due to the parts shortage these days it reminds me of an old TV commercial where the repair guy says "6 months, but you gotta leave the car"
Ivan you should crack some of those computers open sometimes. I bet you could figure out how to fix them, and it would be a great specialty repair you could offer customers..
Agreed! Drop it off and let the man do his work!
The multi plug on the instrument cluster has dry solder joints a common fault on fords
It would have liked if you opened up the ECU to inspect. I’m wondering if there was a loose solder joint. Maybe it could have been a no parts required.
Ivan, the bi-directional OBD device is clearly a very important part of your work and I have seen a Thinktool used in your past videos. Could you tell me which model this is - I am a home "mechanic" with 3 kids and 7 cars to keep on the road so I want to buy such a tool but it would be easy to spend a lot and I am a bit overwhelmed by the choice - autel, thinktool, topdon etc. Any recommendation ? Clearly the picoscope is another to consider though I have a better understanding in this area.
It's in my Amazon store 👍
Ivan, I've had bad experience with Flagship 1 , sent me pcm that would not program no mater what and second pcm same thing had to get from dealer and programmed first time
you are my life saver🙏🙏🙏
Also the pats key idea. We see some problems with non oem keys. Always recommend oem electronic things
Pls I’m from Ghana and I wish to work with you nice diagnosis
do you prefer the redrawn electrical diagrams or the OE when using ALLDATA?
We only get the hatchback version in uk it was out sold last year by the new vaxhall corsa which is a more moden look