An Outsider Visits a Legendary United Methodist Church
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- čas přidán 27. 05. 2022
- Here's a Church Unity Project Video about the United Methodist Church and more specifically, the origins of Methodism that connect to John Wesley and his time in Savannah, Georgia.
Thanks to Rev. Ben Martin and everyone at the Wesley Monumental United Methodist Church for hosting.
If you like the program, you can help make more of this kind of thing happen by supporting TMBH at patreon.com/tmbh
hey matt, your videos have really helped me think differently about christianity after leaving my church when I was a kid and understand it a lot better than I did then, and now I'm considering becoming christian again, so thanks for helping me out a lot!
That is awesome!
That's great!
Amazing! Praying for you
Wow that’s really cool!
Prayers you do!
I always like to mention on Wesley that he was not only an Evangelical (First Great Awakening) Revivalist.. but he was also a high-churchman within his own expression of Anglicanism, and in many ways resembled the Oxford Movement of the next century: ministry to the inner-city poor, emphasis on inner renewal _with_ external liturgical renewal along 17th century Carolinian lines, etc.
In that way, you could call him an "Evangelical-Catholic" Anglican-Methodist.
I love how Rev. Martin is so well versed in both local and Methodist history. He wraps it all together, to form a very informative piece.
I am a local licensed pastor in the UMC. It was so awesome to have one of our elders featured. I have shared this video with the clergy groups I belong to.
That'd make for some interesting conversation, for sure. I lived near Savannah for a while, and it just never occurred to me to check out this church. Next time I'm down there (Lord willing,) I'll have to drop by and bring you..... A COKE!!!. I shall defeat you yet, Pepsi Man!
As someone who aligns with the African Methodist Episcopal church, I'm so happy that you're finally covering Methodism!
He should do one on The Church of the Nazarene. It's Methodist-Weslyan based and has branches around the world, but sadly most people haven't heard of it.
ayyy I was hoping I'd find eventually someone from escat prot chat on this channel
@@quinnwindsor8718 AYYYYYYYYEEEE QUINN.
First time learning about Methodism and know thinking I was closeted Methodist for a while... Really resonated with me.
"We are men of action". impressive casual use of a princess bride quote in a serious way.
Well done Ben.
It should be the other way around.
For us Methodist to grow in our love, affection, and perfection requires us to be a people who act out mercy. A significant scripture for Wesley is Matthew 25. For if we are to know Christ then we must love all of our neighbors. Including our hungry neighbor, homeless neighbor, our neighbor in prison, our neighbor in despair. For in loving our neighbor there we will see the face of Christ.
I have loved your videos because of your call to unity. As Christians we are a beautifully connected body and through this connection of diversity we glimpse the spectrum of Christ’s light and love. Connection also teaches me that I can’t do this Christian walk alone. We need one another for accountability, love, and faith. Methodism is a beautiful home and I’m grateful for our big tent. May you always do no harm, do good, and stay in love with God.
Peace.
I’m a pastor of a Church of God (Cleveland, Tn). Though we are Pentecostal in theology, some our doctrine and history can be traced back to the Wesleyan Holiness movement. He had a major impact on the Church. (Big C church lol). Great video
I remember being taught that. Lots of Methodists on my dad's side and Baptists on my mom's. My dad eventually became a Pentecostal Holiness pastor. He was basically my pastor off and on, along with Tim Nail. I'm a member at Redemption to the Nations (RTTN), so not far from Cleaveland, TN.
I'm from Brazil. I'm catholic. The LORD bless you and your Church
We just got home from Savannah yesterday and I noticed a lot of John Wesley historical markers and signs. Very interesting to see this video right after I was wondering about the Methodist church.
So glad you covered this movement. I would love you to continue exploring the Moravian influence on Methodism and the experiential nature of full assurance they imparted to Wesley! Also, how Wesley’s small group structure led to female teaching and preaching throughout Protestantism.
Thank you so much Matt! I love this series. I thought I had a handle on Christianity, but I am learning so much more by watching these. It's interesting to see how much we are all alike at the bottom line in Christianity, even with our differences. That brings us back to the Nicene Creed, one holy and catholic and apostolic church, small "c". Underneath it all, we are all Christians.
I was done for today with "religious videos", but then this one popped and... Thanks, Matt ;)
Thank you Matt for doing what you do to advance our understanding of the Christian church as a whole! And thanks for presenting UMC and its emphasis on grace and Jesus ... That is why I am most at home in the methodist church.
Thank you once again Matt for bringing us into a world of the kingdom that we might not know much about and bringing clarity so we may know our other brothers and sisters beliefs seeing the differences and greater still our unity especially through Christ Jesus our beloved savior.
So glad that you visited a UM church. I guess what I love about our theology is it's emphasis on grace and how God's grace help us grow into the likeness of Christ.
Great video as always!
You talked about the creeds again in this video. Covering those in detail would be really super interesting! (History around why each incorporate what they do and how they do it.)
My mom is a Methodist preacher and the United Methodist Church is the denomination I was a part of for the longest portion of my live. I was baptized as an infant in the ELCA Lutheran Church where we attended until I was 3, and I joined the Church of Christ as an adult.
Although I no longer directly identify as a Methodist, I still attend my family's United Methodist Church when I'm in town (and also my grandparent's Lutheran Church when I'm up North), and I have respect for Methodist theology and ideals.
Thank you Matt for always putting these church visit videos together with so much care! You strike a wonderful balance of both asking good, knowledgeable questions that allow the pastors explain their positions in their own words while also keeping the conversation interestingly, engaging, and nonconfrontational.
Whether you visit a denomination I believe I understand well (such as Lutheran, Catholic, or Pentecostal), or one I know little about (such as Greek Orthodox, Coptic, or Seventh Day Adventist), I always come away learning or understanding something in a new way.
Although these videos do lay bare that we have differences between our beliefs; these videos also give me hope that we hold more common ground than we think. Also, that when we talk to each other with respect and with the love of Christ, we can accept each other as brothers and sisters in Christ and work towards God's glory.
Blessings to all, and keep up the great work Matt 🙏🏼
Women shouldn't be Church leaders. That's forbidden in the Bible.
My belief system is very similar to Rev. Ben's explanation of continuing to 'growing in grace' and 'wandering off'. That salvation is both an event and a life long process. The way it was described to me that tickled my ears :) was very simply... I heard the gospel (good news) and I made a conscious choice to make a change and turn my life towards God (the event). Now I spend my life developing a relationship with God guided by scripture, His Spirit, prayer, fellowship, service, making mistakes, fixing mistakes etc. (the process). And so like an arrow, the trajectory of my life is towards God. So when I pass from this life into eternity, that trajectory is locked and for eternity I will continue my relationship with and towards God. Ever learning , knowing and being swept off my feet by His love for me.
Sorry, its very short and simple but I love the picture it paints.
What a great conversation! We love Savannah! Your ministry is beautiful and I have mentioned it many times in my preaching. Keep up the good work, brother!
What a beautiful church building and a wonderful ambassador for Methodism in Rev. Martin. You always seem to find the best to represent each part of the body of Christ.
Love to see “rock and sand” by fr Josiah trenham on your desk. Just finished reading it. It’s great!
What a great conversation! You can really sense a genuine enthusiasm between both of you. Thank you for posting.
Keep up the good work Matt, really enjoying the journeys through various churches and perspectives.
Hi Matt! Brother Ben's generous and welcoming heart was really on display in this video. Very informative!
Proud to be a part of the legacy that wesley started.
Me too!
Better be part of the legacy that Jesus himself started 😉
You have no idea how timely this is. I'm a soon-to-be ex Pentacostal about to start looking for a new church/denomination. Methodist is at the top of my list to look into. Thank you Matt!
I am your newest fan! What a great job you do. You ask the perfect questions and have the perfect attitude! I cannot wait to watch the rest of your videos.
Another amazing video!! What a Beautiful and welcoming church❤️
10:35 Fun fact: Wesley was greatly influenced by the Eastern Fathers and Orthodox theology. This is why I saw salvation as a process. Not unlike the Eastern Orthodox position.
Very true, like the Eastern Orthodox Methodists are synergists. John Wesley actually kept a copy of writings from St Ephraim the Syrian and St Macarius the Great
@Christos Kyrios That's definitely a legend--an Orthodox bishop cannot be ordained by one other Orthodox bishop. An Orthodox bishop must be ordained by three other Orthodox bishops.
I’ve been waiting for this one for soooo long
Great video and interview!!!
No I really enjoy it going to all these different denominations and traditions!
What a beautiful building! Wow so pretty
Finally I've been waiting for a Methodist video❤️
Must have been strange for the Wesley brothers to see an English town where palm trees grew. Excellent video as usual, Matt.
Reverend Martin seems like a wonderful man.
Beautifully done. Such a large amount of mainline orthodox Protestantism. Like all of it. Thank you.
I just came across this video while I was searching for one of my own sermons. I had the great privilege of serving as an Associate Pastor at Wesley Monumental, and in my last year I served with Ben. I'm so glad to see you feature this congregation in your series!
Wonderful video, love your channel.
Thank you John.
Welcome back to my neck of the woods...I'm a little bit further south from Savannah in Jacksonville...low country live'n
Excellent interview.
Not a problem... but a delight! I am blessed to volunteer with a ministry that works across denominations and your tours give me a deeper understanding and appreciation for denominations and churches I knew little about. :D
You have a fantastic job!
John Wesley’s New Room is in my city but I have never visited… thanks Matt you have inspired me to go and check it out!
I was wondering when you’d get to Methodism. Can’t wait.
Thanx, Brother Matt 🌹🌹🌹🌹
Very cool to see you reading Fr. Josiah Trenham’s _Rock and Sand_ - the best exposition of the various Protestant positions from an Orthodox Christian perspective!
I came here to comment on this book being shown also.
Same, I love Fr. Josiah though I haven't read that book yet
i havent finished the video yet, but as a UMC church member, thank you for doing this. I'd love for you to come visit my church sometime in new jersey and see how our church building compares to this more traditional one and also the theological and more religious aspects, not just the buildings, but how we reach people especially during Covid-19 and how the means of communicating that stayed the same and at the same time changed etc.
Hope you discuss the split that’s about to happen in the Methodist church…
The African brethren of the church are based. Reading their letter denouncing the decisions of the Western side of the church was amazing.
@@fibonacho you might be thinking about the Ready to Harvest channel, it has some good videos on the topic…
My church background was heavily influenced by Wesley and Methodism and I grew up hearing sermons on "second work of grace" that happened in a believer's life following salvation (the first work of grace). It seems this church is closer to the corner of Christianity I have experienced than most of your other church vids. Anyway, this was fascinating and I'm always excited when I see you have explored a new church. As different as we all are we have so much in common.
Matt, great discussion on Methodism (as a Methodist, I'm obliged to also add that we sing the hymns as a strong part of our faith). But also, what about the church itself? Do you have another video behind this one coming?
I attend a Nazarene church after a lot of "church searching" starting from Childhood in the Christian Missionary Alliance, I am glad you are covering the Methodists, and I would love if you could do some of these discussions with the Methodist spin-offs!
Spontaneous but very cool video
Drat! There goes my pipe dream of having you tour our church for Methodists 😂. Honestly, great church to do for it and he did a great job walking through the history! Great video as always, two shots and talking is all you need when you got those interviewing skills!
I could still swing by. Every Church tells its own story and I find each visit to be instructive and humbling.
@@MattWhitmanTMBH Awesome! Huntsville First United Methodist, we'll keep a light on 😁
You do have wonderful interviewing skills. I always learn so much from these church visits.
@@tbjpersonal Sounds like Matt will just have to take a trip to visit Destin! Unless it's a different Huntsville.
@@goliteyourworld6 same one! All part of the plan, haha
I’m currently EFCA. I have family who are UMC. I disagree somewhat with aspects of Wesleyan theology, and certainly have my opinions about the recent Methodist church split, but I consider them my brothers and sisters in Christ and love them dearly. I think these videos are helpful in uniting the body of Christ! Love it!
excellent video - i travel to savannah a couple a times a year and if i am there on sunday, wesley monumental is where i attend church.
Thanks, Matt! I’m Pentecostal, Church of God, which was born out of Methodism. We are still quite Wesleyan in our theology. This pastor is very encouraging to me as a Wesleyan-leaning believer, especially as one who grew up in Lutheranism.
Rock and sand. Nice! ☦
I’m a Catholic, and I love Fr. Josiah Trenham!
@@bman5257 I was raised catholic but have become orthodox. I have never read rock and sand but I have heard it recomended by great orthodox clergy.
@@thetrutharchive4202 Haven’t read it but seen Fr. Trenham speak about the book. I was raised nominally Protestant became an atheist but became Catholic as an adult.
Now you're just a step away from becomeing orthodox 😆
Interesting to hear this given the UMC is currently undergoing a schism. How big this will be is still kind of an open question, but one third of UMC churches inside the USA may leave and virtually all of the ones outside the USA and western Europe.
Unfortunately many Methodist Churchss are abandoning the authority of the Bible and 2,000 years of Christian tradition. You can't stay in Covenant with leaders who deliberately ignore the responsibilities of that Covenant. Its sad.
I hope while in Savannah, you visited the BEAUTIFUL Catholic Cathedral of St. John the Baptist!!
He's already been to a few Catholic cathedrals.
This church is stunning! I’m so glad, that they are in union with the pope ☺️
Have you ever thought about visiting a synagogue?
I think Savannah is amazing. I took a tour and remember this church.
Come check out some of the old churches in Greenville SC, next time you come to the Southeast. I did landscaping for a few of them, and they're just neat; The architecture and all.
Can’t wait to watch this, I’ve been waiting for this one! Although I am a Lutheran I have a lot of respect for John Wesley and especially his Aldersgate experience
I would also recommend a video on the Moravians, they are a very unknown sect that influenced John Wesley greatly. They were pietist Lutherans that followed in the footsteps of Jan Hus from the Bohemian Reformation
Edit: Sorry I see that you mentioned the Moravians in this video 😅
@Christos Kyrios I wish they mentioned this in this video, but what people don’t realize is that John Wesley was a high churchman. He and his holy club at Oxford were called “Methodists” because of how methodical they were in their worship. They did the Daily Office routinely, took the Eucharist multiple times a week, and (since John Wesley had a crush on the East) they fasted every Wednesday and Friday. He even created a BCP for the his movement, the Sunday Service of the Methodists which was essentially the 1662 BCP. I wish Methodism looked like how Wesley had established it
@Christos Kyrios Ah my bad I didn’t know that, I guess that explains the whole circuit riding and usage of experience in the Wesleyan Quadrilateral.
And yeah Dr. Cooper is great! I’m also a liturgist, during the age of Lutheran Orthodoxy the Lutheran scholastics were very adament about retaining the traditions of the Church catholic as adiaphora, and considered them beneficial and important in being in continuity with the Patristic Church’s history.
Unfortunately American Lutheranism has taken a beating from Pietism and influence from the Reformed tradition, but there’s definitely still holdouts of liturgical Lutheranism in America. You may be interested in the “Evangelical Catholic” wing of Lutheranism, they are very high church and stress the sacraments (including Confession and Absolution), acceptance of all seven ecumenical councils, the liturgy of the Mass, Mariology, iconography, Patristics, the Crucifix and even (modified) Rosaries! Article XXIV of the Augsburg Confession states: “Falsely are our churches accused of abolishing the Mass; for the Mass is retained among us, and celebrated with the highest reverence.” This is especially seen in European Lutheranism, particularly the Church of Sweden and the Church of Finland
Thanks, Matt. I wouldn't call it a problem. Church buildings contributed a great deal to Thomas Merton's conversion.
As a Baptist historian, I also studied a lot about Methodism. Especially in the South, EVERY community had a Baptist and a Methodist church. The larger the town, the more of other churches you might see. However, for rural areas, Baptist and Methodist were basically the only 2 options. As a result, both churches were very close, held joint revivals etc. Most people dont know it, but in many small towns, the Methodists had become so influenced by the Baptists, that they started baptizing by immersion only, and did not baptize infants. When new towns were founded, many times the Baptists and Methodists built a shared building, and each group used it on alternating Sundays. As a result, all of them began going to church every Sunday, with Baptists going to hear the Methodist preacher, then the Methodists going to hear the Baptist preacher. The Methodists were the first to adopt "temperance" (abstaining from alcohol). I hear modern Methodists poke fun of tee-totaling Baptists now a days, not even realizing that it was Methodists who started it all! In fact, Welch's grape juice was invented (distilled so it would keep with no refrigeration)by a Methodist in the 1800's, so that they could have communion without using fermented wine. Eventually, the Baptists adopted it as well. Sadly, when the Methodists combined with the Evangelical Brethren, they began to slide toward liberalism, and the Baptists lost the kinship of their "first cousins" of Methodism. The Wesleyan Church is more like the original Methodists as far as beliefs go. They definitely have held on more to the "holiness" part and the literality of Scripture.
Excellent point. In the days of the circuit rider many preachers roughly identified with both churches. As a matter of fact the "first" Methodist to preach in the Missouri territory was also the "first" Baptist to preach in the Missouri territory. Both denominations claim the same event. I think both groups have tightened up their clergy rules since then.
@@thomasvansant6246 so tell me about the "first" baptist/methodist preacher in missouri. sounds interesting!
Another great video. Visit a Maronite Catholic church sometime.
I'd love to!
You should have done the church tour like other vids.
Glad Matt has an Orthodox book
Hey Matt! Thanks so much for doing these kinds of videos! If there is anything I can do to help with any of your projects, I would love to help out! I have some video and audio editing experience but I’m willing to do anything!
Matt, would you be open to doing an episode with a Global Methodism and the future of Methodism?
Yep, sounds pretty orthodox, get the blue paint and put a dome on that Church. Kidding of course and nice to learn about the Methodist Church. I like the pastor too, he’s got a cool accent and seems a very kind man.
Methodism contributed a lot to many countries. Many independent churches grew by employing cell groups, owing much from Wesley's class meetings. Emphasis on holiness, social justice and service to the poor is vital to Wesleyan tradition.
So jelly! How do you get a job interviewing people in gorgeous churches? I wanna do that!
As a Methodist I want more discussion about my church and the changing of minsters tho campaigns against alcohol and gambling.,
I see you are reading Rock and Sand. My priest actually bought this book for me as a gift when I was baptized in the Orthodox Church.
I was raised in foster care from 8 to 18. I very much enjoyed it at the time. Haven't been back (or to any in too long) but this video is having me think seriously about it.
I haven't been to a "church" in a long time. Parr of it is that I don't know where I fit. As stated earlier, I have been to a ton of different denominations, and even started First Communion. None felt like home.
Best way I can label my beliefs is that I am a Torah observing (not perfect) follower of The Father and The Son. This makes finding a home difficult as EVERY protestant body has lectured me on being under the law (all generations forever btw). However, Jews for Jesus, Messianic, and Followers of The Way, all seem to be more in love with the traditions and Torah than with The Father.
I do what was written, not because I have to, but because I love The Father and The Son, and want to do what they said makes them happy. Subtle difference but I feel a big one.
Hello Matt, first - i love your channel. How about visiting the Wartburg in Germany where the Reformation started? Maybe you will se also some incredibale churches you never saw?
You should try a AME church also love your videos man
Another absolute banger of video brother.
I'm not sure if it was stylistic or if the cameras have a very dramatic stereo effect, but having different voices in each ear (or at least at a different enough levels per channel) is doing some unpleasant things to my brain. I mean... I still watched it, so maybe not that important.
Anyways. Lets wrap this complement sandwich up. uhhhh it's a nice beard and we appreciate you
My bad on that. I use a stereo mic that splits the forward and rear facing into a right and left stereo track and it's a great tool. That said, I USUALLY, copy the right and left track over the top of each other in post so that the whole thing is effectively two-channel mono. But I forgot this time. Apologies :)
I always like your videos and look forward to watching each new one. Consider a lavalier microphone in your kit? It is difficult to understand the interviewee at times with all the echo
This is my faith tradition, although I tend to lean a bit harder into certain things often de-emphasized in the UMC.
Ooh, I’m quite unfamiliar with United Methodist churches. This will be fun!
10 minute Bible hour... that's a new one!
**fingers still crossed for Episcopal or UCC or Disciples of Christ visits**
If you are located further South, Disciples of Christ would be easier to find probably! Have you tried Presbytarian churches yet as well? I will have to have a look. So many churches out there! I know the above may be a bit challenging to your theology, but that's part of the journey!
Christ Episcopal Church in Savannah still lists John Wesley as their first Vicar.
Great video! Out of AV curiosity, was your cameraman not there? In previous videos it has looked like you've had someone follow you with a camera and then setup for seated interview.
As being from the Episcopal tradition, I find myself agreeing with the vast majority of Methodist faith and consider them fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, but I do not adhere to the perfectionist doctrine in this life the same. But much love to this church. I long for the day when we are one again in communion. It is a shame that we separate ourselves so much.
First of all great video, seems like a great guy! As a Lutheran, I would say his way of defining grace is confusing. In Lutheran theology, we keep grace or what we call "Gospel" and loving others or "Law" separate. I think it's easy to keep separate if you think about the directionality of the actions, that is, "Is this something God has done for me or on my behalf?" or "Is this something which I do for God, because of his command?"
Essentially, we hold every teaching in sacred Scripture can be divided into Law or Gospel. The Law tells us what we should do, shows us our sin, demands perfect righteousness, and ultimately terrifies our comfortable conscience. Whereas, the Gospel or "grace" shows us our Savior, tells us what Jesus has done on our behalf, brings life, and ultimately comforts our terrified consciences.
To connect the idea of being "grace-filled" with your own works or acts of love or defining yourself as someone "who lives out the gospel" is unhelpful and potentially dangerous way to think about your salvation. I say this because it is often our temptation to save ourselves through our own good works (turning Law into Gospel), or to twist gifts from God into rewards we need to work for (turning Gospel into Law). I think Pastor Ben seems like a great guy and an amazing pastor, but I think he might be turning Law into Gospel, and ultimately be terrifying souls that could be comforted with pure Gospel.
Some examples...
Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
- Matt. 11:28-30 (Gospel)
For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
- Matt. 5:20 (Law)
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, in order to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as children.
- Gal 4:4-5 (Gospel)
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
- Matt. 5:48 (Law)
Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
- Matthew 25:34 (Gospel)
‘Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?’ He said to him, ‘“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.” This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.’
- Matthew 22:36-40 (Law)
Matt, I'm United Methodist, and I'm really glad that you have visited a United Methodist church--and in my own South Georgia Annual Conference! Brother Martin didn't mention that besides the Apostles' Creed, the UMC also has Articles of Religion, a list whittled down by John Wesley from the Church of England's 39 Articles. Wesley Monumental is a great church--but while you were in Savannah, I hope you noticed Trinity United Methodist. It's building dates from the 1840s and so is about 50 years older than Wesley. And it is now a Reconciling Ministries church in the UMC--so is affirming of gay Christians.
Love all of these videos! I'm I guess you could say "denominationally restless". I love learning all of the little bits about the different churches. Still not sure where I belong, but these are so helpful.
Hi Matt, it would be interesting to see you visit a Plymouth Brethren and a Liberal Quaker Un-Programmed Meeting to experience the oddly similar worship style from groups from two groups on the far opposite side of the Christian spectrum from each other
Also similarly, there would likely be concerns from certain members of each group about the Worship being recorded
I grew up Plymouth Brethren, and there was nothing about it remotely similar to a Quaker meeting.
I was thinking the unstructured and organic nature of the ministry and the reliance on the spirit for Ministry, the seating pattern facing each other, no one minister, the relative contemplative stillness,
I don't understand why you would say Quaker worship is similar the Plymouth Brethren? I have regretfully attend liberal Quaker meetings and they don't really sing hardly any Hymns which is what I believe the Brethren do.
Have you considered reaching out to Josiah Trenham? I see you're reading his book. It's on my list of books that I have to read before year's end.
He already have videos with him.🙃
The essentials/nonessentials/charity was from Richard Hooker, an Anglican.
I never liked how we got a new pastor every 2 years and had no elders.
my umc church has had the same lead pastor for 30 years and we have an elder team, called a lead team
@@philnaegely Unless you're at CoR in KC, that's extremely irregular. Most conferences will not tolerate a pastor being in one place for more than 4-8 years. Frankly, I like the locum tenens approach. I was a Baptist for 30 years and I've been in two churches with pastors-for-life and they often have an authoritarian edge and have an unbalanced theology. A congregation should never be known as "Pastor So-and-so's church." It's God's church.
@@jsharp3165 agree on the last sentence; it doesn't feel like it's my pastors church. But he's been the lead pastor for 20-30 something years. We are in the greater nj conference. Our bishop and district superintendents I believe operate under the philosophy of "don't just change things for change sake"
@@jsharp3165 and my church doesn't feel authoritarian either for that matter
There might be a video part 2 coming. So I dont want to speak too soon, but I do think some of the charity of doctrine in Methodism comes from its understanding that the atonement is general, that God loves EVERYONE. Good job pointing out that theres actually a lot of Puritan theology baked into Methodism despite the fact that its mostly anti-Calvinist (Welsh methodists notwithstanding). Maybe you will hit on that in the next video but I think as with all traditions there are tensions in the theology that pull folks towards one "doctrine" or another And of course "Wesleyan" and "Holiness" churches tend to stricter more conservative understandings of discipleship for the reasons you mention.
Not the only reason for the Wesleyan/Methodist schism. Slavery was the main reason.
@@pkmcnett5649 It wasn't the inciting reason, but their approaches took different tacts subsequently, and the "Methodist Church" proper split very shortly thereafter itself over slavery, it just slowly healed the rift and came back together in the early 1940s.
@@ianlaue6283 They are not back together.
I also think getting Prohibition so wrong was a pretty humbling experience tbh. It may have caused some rethinking on what "Christian living" was supposed to mean. Methodists still tend towards avoiding alcohol but its not a view held with the same tenacity as it once was for I think understandable reasons. (And its not required of membership, which used to be the case)
@@pkmcnett5649 There was "Methodist Church, South" and "Methodist Episcopal Church" that merged in 1939, They split in the 1840s for many of the same reasons as the Wesleyan Church. I wasnt meaning to say the Wesleyan Church was now part of the UMC, it is not. but a church split that followed it for very similar reasons did eventually lead to a reconciliation. Its the only example I know of where that happened. Most denominations that split over slavery remained split.
I've noticed that many Christians--Protestant, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or otherwise--have trouble understanding that something can stand in place of another. Calvinists should understand this by the example of the federal headship of Adam and of Christ. This Methodist Church, it seems to me, stands as a monument to Wesley only because Wesley represents the doctrines of grace. Therefore, it is not a monument to Wesley proper but to the thing for which he stood. Catholics fail to see, in my opinion, Peter is only the Rock because he is the Rock's representative. Baptism only saves because it is the Atonement's representative. Protestants often fail to see that icons are worshipped because they stand for the object of the icon, and even then--unless standing for God--only in a "dulia" sense of worship (the due honor, or worth-ship, of some person or thing). The examples just go on and on.
Great video, man! Loved it.
I was wondering when you would get to look into Methodism, sucks that you come around the time of the schism within the UMC at the moment over gay marriage as I fear one side will be biased over the other (and this is coming from a liberal United Methodist who is for gay marriage/ordination) and will distort the Wesleyan-Methodist message. Anyway, loved the video and keep up the good work. *note just got done with the vid and glad with how it went, really didn't get into the issue.
Hey, Matt, good article. I came from that line of thinking in a different way. Anti-methodist. The Free Methodists were kicked out of the Methodist church in 1861. They did not think people should be charged for a pew to sit in. They bereaved in freedom of the Spirit. They bereaved that individuals could hear from God and should have the opportunity to speak rather than only the preacher. They beleaved all people were people that God loved, not just the white, rich people. Thus anti-black slavery. Thus, in 1861, they were kicked out of the METHODIST church.
Would you visit a FREE Methodist church?
@@fibonacho should be "believed."
@@fibonacho You are welcome.
Spell check helped me.
@@GSyme-ww4eq spell check only helps itself. 😉
Down here in Montgomery, AL, there’s several current Methodist congregations here that are exploring joining the Free Methodist Church rather than the newly formed Global Methodist Church when the “official” split finally occurs. One church, Frazer Methodist, was once the biggest UMC in the country and has already voted to join the Free Methodists. However, in all of the presentations that I’ve attended as well as have heard about secondhand from some of the staff and clergy there, I don’t remember this fact of essentially being ousted from the Methodist Church. What I understood is that it was a departure born out of distaste of the American slave trade.
Can you expand upon what you’re talking about or maybe give some kind of reference to it, because in my (limited) research of the subject, this is the first I’m hearing of this, I think. My own small church, like most UMC congregations, is going to have to make a move in terms of the split sooner rather than later, and I’d appreciate all the info I can get on the Free Methodist Church since it’s one of the only two options that we’re considering.