RV Brake Troubles!: Solving a Perplexing Hydraulic Disc Brake Issue
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- čas přidán 18. 06. 2024
- I’m thoroughly confused after troubleshooting these brakes!
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00:00 Intro
00:25 Our Hydraulic Disc Brake System
01:00 First Symtoms and Initial Troubleshooting
03:24 Brake System Troubleshooting
05:01 Brake Controller / Actuator Troubleshooting
08:01 Re-Test Before Replacing the Actuator
10:44 Re-Re-Test with LED Light Bar Adapters
13:21 Testing Original Splices
14:17 Summary
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UPDATE!: We got a TON of great advice here in the comments! THANK YOU! The prevailing theories are:
Bad Splices/Crimmps: It's possible one of the splices was bad even though it read zero ohms because the meter uses 9v at very low amperage. If it happens again, I will test the voltage drop across the splice while under load.
Power Reset: Since the actuator is powered even when the truck is disconnected, it never completely shuts off. Cutting the power line might have reset (rebooted) any "smarts" built into the actuator.
Bad Ground: I never cut the ground wire, but the connection might be intermittent at the chassis, and moving the wires around made a good connection. I did check the chassis ground, so I don't think this is it. But, as many have mentioned, I should verify/check the ground wire first.
I agree completely! I have seen fuses in house circuit check okay until under load!
I have rewired a few trailers, one typical problem on trailers is the ground. Usually, the white wire from the 7way is simply screwed to the chassis. While steel, I myself do NOT trust the chassis to be my primary ground...especially NOT for brakes.
When I rewire the trailer I do ground the chassis, however...I run a dedicated ground wire (same gauge as brake wire) to the brake actuator.
Also, I use lights that have a ground wire.
If, for whatever reason I can't find lights with the ground...I still run a dedicated ground to the mounting point of the light.
Doing this guarantees your ground is good AND, the chassis is still grounded (as it should be to keep static at bay).
My $$$ is on the poor crimp side. We dealt mostly with 120vac and often had issue with poor quality grounds particularly in older houses. Check hot to ground and 120vac. Put a light bulb on one of the meter leads and check. Voltage goes way down because of a poor ground. You could do the same if you're willing to sacrifice a lead. Just put a 12vac incandescent bulb in the lead and retest those crimps running 12vdc thru them.
Agree on the Power Reset.. similar issue on a newer truck as well. 7 way needed to be unplugged to reset things. Then it all worked fine.
One additional possibility would be a short to ground on the control wire. Since you moved the cables around while replacing the splices you may have moved the wire enough so the short was “fixed”. I would think this would occur somewhere the wire passes thru a box or bulkhead fitting. It may have rubbed thru the wire insulation or mostly thru in a very small spot. If it occurs again, try checking the resistance (since there was no sparking, resistance is most likely high enough to not register continuity) between the control cable and ground or the RV chassis, if the resistance is in the kiloohm range, I would suspect this. Just one other possibility to investigate.
Chad, you really can't check those wire connections the way you did. You need to put put 12 volts to the wire and put a load on the other end, like a headlight bulb. Checking with a test light or meter can still measure 12 volts until a load is installed. I have been a Ford tech for 30 years and have been bit before. Put a load on it and check voltage drop. Love the videos man. Keep em coming
Agree, continuity test does not verify current carrying capacity.
I agree, my guess it was a connection issue. Best way to check for bad connections is under full load. If you would have stripped back the wire a little on the load side of the crimp connector and checked you may have seen a voltage drop. Maybe there was moisture in the crimps. Anyway, good job. Sometimes it is the simple things that can be overlooked easily.
lots of people, techs included forget that one strand of wire will still show source voltage with no resistance. That's what makes doing diag on networks so much fun.
Yes, our resident Ford tech above is absolutely correct. I preach to my techs to perform voltage drops as opposed to resistance checks alone. I also advocate for non-destructive testing. ALWAYS test your circuits BEFORE taking anything apart so as to catch it in the act, so to speak. Many an electrical problem can be fixed simply by unplugging and plugging back in because you fix a bad contact. Nothing more frustrating. When you disconnected your actuator and checked voltage there, that was a good check, but you verified source voltage only, not voltage with the load of the actuator in the circuit. The importance of voltage drops can not be overstated. Imagine if just one strand of wire was barely completing that circuit. With your ohmeter, you'll see very low resistance. But under load, that one strand will produce huge voltage drop, preventing all the voltage from reaching the load. I think you may have fixed it by redoing it, but your frustration in not knowing WHY you fixed it has been felt by many a tech who wasn't methodical enough. Any time something electrical works, but doesn't work well, we are thinking about bad powers or grounds. Also, the instant I saw all that corrosion, I became concerned about water intrusion into one of the electrical circuits. It's a great lesson, though, and in the end, you fixed it, so good work.
Hi Chad,. As other comments have mentioned your voltages tests need to occur under load grounding to the controller and checking voltage when activated as close to actuator as possible past all splices. Also recommend checking but comlnnections with a megger or with significant load and measure voltage drop across the splice. Just some thoughts similar to others here.
I can imagine 1 thing that may have been overlooked. I’m not an expert on your trailer system, but do have an electronic engineering technician degree and 27 years of electronic experience. The one thing that I see that may be a potential culprit is your grounding. If the grounding connection between your vehicle and brake controller is compromised, you may ohm out as being good, but when an increase controller current tries to travel this ground path the resistance could increase which would drop your voltage seen by your brake controller module. This lower voltage to your trailer brake module would give you diminished braking. This could be a connector issue or grounding path between the trailer and vehicle. This could definitely cause intermittent issues. I have in the past had light issues between a trailer and truck caused by corroded grounding wire. It’s just a thought. With such a new truck and trailer I wouldn’t expect corrosion to be an issue. Damaged or poor wire connector could. I would look. Good luck!!
The one thing that I have had happened to me was the inertia sensor in your controller could be faulty. That's the only thing that I can think that was not checked. Great video and safe travels
Chad, I would go with a false ground too!
He is correct. You can have continuity check good, but that does not indicate if it maintains full continuity under load. I could very well have been one of those splices or a ground issue.
Yes, I have spent 40 years chasing automotive/RV electrical systems, it is almost ALWAYS the ground. Pull it apart, clean all corrosion with wire brush and rubbing alcohol, reinstall and cap seal the connection, both sides with RTV.
My dad was a mechanic that specialize in electrical systems back when most mechanics were not well educated wrt electricity. His favorite theme was "check your grounds first". His advice has served me well for many years.
I used to be a technical specialist for a major motorcycle brand.
This sounds like something I have encountered before.
That brand used some extremely sophisticated electronics in their braking system.
Occasionally the sensors for the solenoids which pushed the brake fluid would lose there their "zero" - in other words, they would not know what they're starting point was in order to produce the required pressure that was being dictated by the lever. This would result in a diminished clamping force being achieved at the caliper.
The unifying characteristic of the failure was that the rider was always on an incline prior to starting the motorcycle and because of that they were applying a large braking force prior to turning the key on. Because the on board computer for the braking system used the key on impulse as a signal to check zero during each startup this was confusing the system.
The short-term fix was to disconnect the the brake hydraulic pump from battery power and then ground out the output and sensor circuits - this would reset the system.
The long-term effects was a software change which left the solenoid sensors with battery power during key off events. As it was a low voltage system and the sensor draw was negligible this did not diminish battery performance in vehicles which were used with any sort of regularity.
Got to say that the first couple of times we saw this condition it was quite the head scratcher.
Wow Chad, your viewers are some smart people. I came to the comments to to tell you that the method you used to test those connections was flawed and found that a lot of people had beat me to it. Then I discovered several other good suggestions of other problems to look for that I had not thought of yet but were quite good ideas. I am sure you didn't get such a sharp audience by chance. Your knowledge and style of presenting it are one of the reasons I call it CZcams University.
Hi Chad. I was a broadcast engineer for 43 years, before I retired. I think you found your problem - the crimp connectors. I’m not a big fan of crimp connectors. Like most of these guys, my first thought was the crimp connectors. And, like one of the other guys pointed out, just because you have continuity doesn’t mean that it can pass heavy current. In my opinion, nothing beats a Western Union solder joint and a little heat shrink, especially if the long-term safety of your rig is depending on those connectors. The only other possibility I see is an intermittent brake actuator.
This is adapted from a discussion on a forum for a particular kind of fifth wheel I did not figure this out on my own but your video made me think of this I read a while ago:
Whether or not you have your truck lights on might matter. On some Xxxxx coaches, the disc brake option drives the need for a factory installed DC/DC battery charger to be installed as well, assumedly to keep the coach batteries charged due to the added draw the brake actuator pump places on the electrical system.
This charger requires an Ignition Switched Based ”Trigger Wire” to turn it on and in turn charge the battery. On some coaches, it seems the factory attached the trigger wire to the light circuit in the 7 pin junction box on the rear of the pin box. So unless the truck lights are ON, there would be no battery charging to the coach. (other then the standard solar at least in our case)
The trucks charge line connects to the 7 pin box and in turn to the DC/DC charger inlet(+) .
This DC/DC is also an isolator and will not allow any current to pass thru it unless it is activated by the trigger wire.
So, over time coach battery voltage would be depleted with each brake activation and without charger activation there would be no voltage to charge the battery. Voltage could get low enough to prevent proper brake activation.
Hi Chad:
I watched your CZcams video tonight in regards to the diminished braking on your trailer. I had the exact same issue and long story short, in my case, it was in the Ford menu system where you set up the trailer. Let me explain my experience.
I have a 2023 F450 King Ranch pickup and 2023 Solitude 390RK which was ordered with 8k MorRyde IS and disk brakes (only 2 axles)
Let me back up a bit here. before the F450 and 390RK we had a 2019 F350 dually and a Solitude 310GK. I also had MorRyde install 7K IS and disk brakes. The F350 menu system had the trailer setup with the correct type of brakes and it worked fine. Sometimes I would forget to select the active trailer and it still worked fine. In May 2023 the new 390RK arrived and (other then having leaky hydraulic fittings on two of the calipers) it also worked fine. It did not matter if I selected the active trailer or not.
In October 2023 my F450 arrived and it had an elaborate menu system where I entered much more info for the trailer configuration. I selected the Solitude trailer from the menu before we started and it was fine.
Two weeks ago we left our Florida campsite to travel to Quartzsite AZ for the GD Rally this March. It was over a month since we last towed and I forgot to select the Solitude as the active trailer. In Tow Haul mode the dash actually said “NO ACTIVE TRAILER”. Since it did not matter on the F350 I ignored the message. However, I had diminished trailer brakes. It really was not safe to drive that way but I could not find any reason for the issue. I did not think it would make any difference but I pulled over and selected the Solitude as the active trailer and just like that my brakes were 100%.
I think your truck is a year older and the menu may be different, but my guess is the issue is somehow in the setup menus.
My wife and I are both big Changing Lanes Fans.
Lou & Diane Cetrangelo
Do you like your 390RK, have the kitchen slide issue been fixed? That's the trailer I want and the 8k axle and I also want to tow with Ford 450
As you know the carrying capacity is low. Adding the 8k IS brought the GVRW to 18k lbs. However the components are so heavy that the carrying capacity did not increase much. We added 9 solar panels} (2.13k w) and a 24v lithium battery bank (480ah@24v). Which used up any cc gain😎.
Hi Chad, I have been a Technician and Electronics engineer for over 50 years. I use a sewing needle with my meter and lightly puncher the insulation to measure the voltages under load when there is no other convenient place to measure the voltage under actual load conditions. Really enjoy following you two and your adventures!
Hello Chad. I've not had much experience with trailer brakes, retired aircraft mechanic. Your troubleshooting sounded solid. The isdues in the other comments all sounded like good advice.
A voltage drop test would've been good. What is your system ground ? If it's just a screw into the frame, double check that.
First rule of troubleshooting, what was the last thing done ? That's probably your rear brake light addition. But you verified that by removing the connectors.
Second rule, after all your other troubleshooting, find the most expensive part in the system, replace it ! This doesn't count if it's warranty LOL.
Intermittent problems are the absolute worst. When your following a set path on troubleshooting, that SHOULD find a problem and doesn't, makes you crazy, almost bald, doubt your own abilities, and generally can make you hard to get along with.
I would look at the programming of your truck / trailer system.
But if it ain't broke, you can't fix it.
I think you troubleshooting so far is solid. You've ruled out mechanical issues it sounds like. That only leaves electrical or programming.
Good luck brother, I know this can make you crazy and worse, yet make you doubt your system. No a good situation with 40k lbs pushing you.
Keep us informed.
God bless ya'll stay safe out on the road .
I’ve had the same exact issue with my Morryde IS brakes. My setup is similar minus the tow vehicle - I have a Ram with a 7 pin extension receptacle in the bed of the truck. After breaking my brains over what may be going on, traced the issue to be at the splice (connector) of the 7-pin receptacle in bed to the 7-pin by the bumper. In my case the receptacles are spliced up in parallel before carried towards the module upfront. Ironically, the root cause was a spare tire not tightened all the way, and during movement pressing against the splice connector reducing continuity. Quite the sequence of events!
Check where the ground cable is actually grounded probably with a self tapping screw. You moved the ground wire, which is now made a better connection.
Both ground from pump to trailer frame/wire harness as well as the 7pin wire to frame. Maybe even inside the 7pin connector screw terminal in case its corroded or loose.
Will be ground for pump only. If any other ground was no good. Other things would be acting up as well.
Glad you are sharing all with your friends Chad!
I think your systematic trouble shooting was spot on and checked all possibilities. Is there any kind of electrical reset that might have been triggered by the wire cutting. Did you ever try just unplugging and replugging the actuator. You have had problems with electric over hydraulic valves on your jack system. They can stick open or shut causing slight bypass or no flow at all. A lot of electronics can be fixed with a reboot.
I feel like removing the 12v constant may have reset the actuator. I would put a simple toggle switch on it for the future. Glad things are working.
I changed my drum brakes for the Kodiak disc brakes DIY and love them. I have a 40' toy hauler and the drum brakes just didn't stop/slow down very well. Hopefully ya'll won't have the problem again.
Always good to join you on troubleshooting efforts even if our setup is different. Good to learn, even if a definitive answer is not obvious for now. Great video. Appreciate your content as always!
First off, let me say that my wife and I love your video's (great content).
If I'm correct the issue will return over time. When you cut the wires, you cut all power to the actuator completely resetting the control board in the actuator.
If it does happen again, I'd suggest killing the trailer power and ground to the actuator to prove my theory.
Safe and happy travels.
Perhaps there’s an internal pressure leak in the brake booster pump
I was thinking that maybe when you cut the wires you reset the system and cut it out of the residual power system. What ever it was I'm glad you were able to get it fixed. Good job Chad.😁
Do not RV, but we I do watch every week to get ideas on where me and my bride want to travel. Love you guys.
I didn’t read all of the suggestions I apologize if my is a repeat. Try moving the cord around that connects the trailer to the truck and see if your readings change. Check the connections where the trailer light cord splices to the trailer in the area behind the king pin. Good Luck and keep the great videos coming!
A couple of suggestions: spray all of your plug-in connections with WD40. This prevents moisture & corrosion from interfering and thus causing intermittent voltage drops with your brakes, lights, & anything else electrical. I did this on the brake light connection on my KTM motorcycle. I was getting a rear brake light switch error on the sophisticated brake computer system. The brake light ALWAYS worked, but I still kept getting the error on my gauge display. After spraying the plug-in connection with WD40, the computer has never received the error. Because your controller works off a variable or pulse signal, any compromise in the connection could have caused your problem. And you may have unknowingly fixed the problem with you disconnected the plugs and reconnected them. WD40 may keep the problem from returning.
Another suggestion I have, although not related to your current problem, as a routine habit is to check all of your disc brake rotors with an infrared temperature sensor. What you will be looking for is a significant difference in temperature among the 6 rotors on your trailer brakes. The same check can be done in your truck. If one of the six rotors is hotter or colder on the trailer or one side of the truck is different than the other side, it can indicate that one brake is working too hard or not hard enough. The front and back brakes on your truck will be obviously different, but they should be close to the same side to side.
Thank you for sharing
Great vidoe showing everything you checked.
I am exactly like you in assessing and finding the problem, not only to fix the problem but knowing what to keep an eye out for but not finding one and the wallah it's fixed well even more frustrating... but that's what u said !!!
Couple commenters before this one here; made excellent suggestions. (Wire connection voltage from truck, while hydro-pump is operating, (A.K.A., with current flow), testing. I have not operated a trailer with hydro-electric, only drum-electro-magnet brakes. The only insufficient stopping power on one truck-puller I experienced, was attributed to running undersized wire gauge, from the truck brake controller to the trailer connecting plug. (Quite an unnerving towing experience, while descending a mountain). (Was barely enough stopping power, for sure there was not enough wheel lockup power. Temp. work-around; drive slower, as you already well know).
Chad I’m an electrician and this has happened to me before. Crimps with even minor corrosion inside,"which you can’t see" create higher resistance. In a 12-13.8 volt system with wire length and size that small you likely had voltage drop but only when breaks are applied. By changing the crimps you’ve eliminated the problem. I’d use shrink crimps to prevent a moisture issue which causes these problems. Good luck! Oh BTW I would have trouble shooter this problem exactly as you did. The crimp thing is very unusual but does happen.
So, I had independent landing gear installed in “19, I had troubles with right side a couple years later. The splice was defective. Wire just came out with slight tug. I replace splice. About 6 months later, same thing… right landing gear not working. Check fuse, wiggled splice, it started working. Replaced splice with better splice. (I was at a harvest host in the middle of Texas). Worked fine for about another year and broke again one stop from home. Finally figured it out at home, the wire going into the motor would open if, and only if, the wire was in some weird position, but would reengage after it was maneuvered around for a bit. So, I replaced the motor. The wire open didn’t present like most opens: you pull one way (open) and the other way (closed). Nope. It worked most times, and corrected itself if you messed with it (until it didn’t again). Sooo, just be prepared, it could’ve been a shorted wire that stopped touching metal cause you pulled on the wire bundle, a lost one/zero electronically, or anything in between. Good luck.
Hi Chad, Been a while since we commented with each other. (Distilled water/Peroxide water bug spray). The one thing I would look at a little more closely, would be, you had voltage but may not be delivering enough current. The electric/hydraulic was "buzzing" but may not have been developing true pressure..... hard to tell through audio. A Tee fitting and a pressure gage (0-5000psi) would definitely answer the pump question. Being it is all six wheels not functioning is proof it is not the individual calipers.... I believe that the voltage output to the trailer is a PWM voltage (pulse width modulation) signal, I doubt it is resistance based, I would have to verify using an oscilloscope or high end Fluke multimeter, however, if it is PWM you would show voltage but have insufficient current. The continuity reading with the multimeter would show low resistance but may not be able to carry the necessary current.....
I think you’re on to something here, I’m now wondering if the thermal load affected the valve actuation performance directly. I had an exact replication of Chads experience and I did notice degradation during prolonged use (heat) and a significant increase in the audible noise from internal electronics (stress).
Enjoyed your video.
I believe you have a bad (new) wire somewhere.
I know it is rare; however, I ran into a similar "unsolveable" issue when installing a brake controller.
Everything I was using was brand new.
Finally, I decided to do an Ohm test on all the wires. I found that one of my wires was bad, even though it was from a brand new roll.
There is a poor or bad connection somewhere. Some breaking means you have a bad but not completely separated connection somewhere. Getting a good result now means that the connection is 'made '. This is a typical intermittent result.
So, you either have a break somewhere in a wire or in one of the many molded connections in those wire connectors.
That would be problematic to narrow down.
What wires did you add to your system, and what connections/connectors are there new to the system.
At this point, you have a few choices.
Leave it alone and see what happens.
Try to run down the bad connection/break.
Use new wiring.
Personally, I would leave it alone and see. However, if I had any more issues, I would not use the system until I either found the problem or replaced it.
Another thing I do not remember you mentioning is that you have checked the ground setup.
Here, it gets tricky.
How is the system grounded?
Are the grounds secure?
How many grounds are there?
Did you do a test of the grounds' bonding?
There could be a few issues here.
Your grounds may not be bonded sufficiently.
If you have more than 1 ground, you may have a "Ground Loop" in play.
So, even though your system works now, you may have hidden issues. These may rear their ugly head.
I have tried to give you a few new things to consider.
I know solving this kind of problem is difficult and like an Easter egg hunt. You will end up solving it when you find the egg. It is just somewhere you have not looked yet.
50+ years of troubleshooting has taught me to be careful not to consciously or subconsciously discount any possibility.
help.campbellsci.com/CR6/Content/shared/Maintain/Troubleshooting/ground-loops.htm
Although you have a good ground and good voltage it sounds like one of your wires or crimps don’t have the proper strands. in other words, you might have a couple strands broken. In that case you’re not getting the proper amperage, you can always have voltage and a good ground but because of vibration you would have an intermittent problem. You need to check for amperage. Once again great video hope you figure that one out, and we’ll see you on the next video. 😎👍
We have the same setup on our Solitude. We had a similar issue, except that it didn't fix itself. We had to add a Hydrastar Adapter Module (#HB-CAM) in the wires prior to the actuator. We were told that some GMC and some Ford integrated controllers don't "communicate" well with the actuator. Not sure if this is your issue, but it fixed ours!
Great video! We had Moryde install IS and disc brakes in June 2022. I noticed that with the manual override, my 40’ fifth wheel would not completely stop either. I called Moryde and that said that it would not???? Strange. So I have just kept my boost setting to 6 on my 3500 Ram and this at least keeps me from feeling like the RV is pushing us as we stopped. Can’t wait to follow this thread. Thanks Chad
Chad love your videos. as for your brake problem. You checked voltage through the connector does not mean you are getting enough amps through the connector you need to load test the connectors. just to be sure the proper amps are getting through the connectors. I run into this problem many years ago in the Army. We had a tank that would not charge. after many times pulling the engine and transmission out and testing it on the ground ( and many hours spent) we found a bad wire. Long story short after replacing the wire. everything work. Have never forgot that. Safe travels.
Very good video. There is things to learn here...rhanks
2 things to suggest, one is to check your connections inside your 7 pin connector to make sure you don't have a loose or cold soldier joint somewhere. The second suggestion is, have you checked to make sure the pump is operating at correct pressure. Just because it "sounds" ok doesn't mean it is. I would imagine there's a bypass or pressure regulator system in the pump and you may have a problem with the pump or said system(s). Good luck!
Sounds like you had a cold solder joint! The heat on solder splices do a good job in most cases. But when I use them, I like soldering the splice first then cover it with the heat splice. That way I get a good solid joint. Soldering is as art to most people. Make sure it is shiny, not dual in color.
Looks like you checked everything. I was thinking it may have been a grounding issue or in truck controller. Keep close watch and safe travels.
Ok well glad it’s working for you and as retired commercial and residential electrician it’s very frustrating when that happens definitely sound’s electrical I know this might sound weird but next time it happens again try a different tow vehicle to see if it’s something intermittent coming from your truck
Great idea!
Chad, I've had two occasions with surge brakes where there was some small particles between the plunger on the accuator and the small hole at the exit point of the acctuator where the brake line connects.
If that was your case the pump would come up to pressure and some fluid would pressurize the lines but the needed volume of fluid would be restricted. These particles were trapped in a confined area.
I really enjoy your site and your presentation, Dave M
I'm glad it's working now, even if it magically healed itself. This kinds of issues cause a crisis of confidence. Until the problem can be definitively located and resolved, the little voice in the back of your head will whisper every time you hit the brakes. Keep on keeping on.
Chad I have the same setup but only in a Riverstone. The only problem I ever had was one time leaving a park the brakes felt spongy and I had a loose 7 pin connection. I'm sure you have plugged this in and out many times during your troubleshooting. You'd like to hope that the problem will go away but it will leave you scratching your head in the future. Great video.
A lot of good comments, one rare issue that I had in 48 years as an electronic/electrical tech was a loose pin in a multi pin connector. The pins looked good ut I could push on back with very little pressure. The wire would push it back so it looked okay. When I plugged it in the force of the mating pin would push it back and it wouldn't have full pin to pin contact. Only had that several times in all my years.
Off subject but need to do a review on cheap heat. Love my setup.
Chad, you're a beast. Love the trouble shooting vids!
That's always a tough thing. Bad connections and solder joints can always be a problem. I was an auto mechanic for many years and when someone would bring in an intermittent problem those were the toughest to diagnose and repair. I hope this fixes your problem and you don't loose brakes at a bad time.
Chad, just enjoy watching you have gremlins in your RV. You have a lot of good comments but did not see glazed pads. They will stop at zero speed but with weight and speed work poorly. Just a thought.
When I picked up my 5th wheel after having the brakes and suspension done, was constantly throwing a code when left turn signal came on. We went into the shop and their director of R&D got involved. Like you, we never did figure it out, but here we are 10k+ miles later and it's still working. I did discover they did a horrible job bleeding the brakes, and I did fix that myself, bit it did piss me off that they didn't properly bleed the brakes.
.
I had one thought on the crimp, could the resistance be zero under light loads, but suddenly increase on heavier current loads. Along that same line of thinking, butt end connectors are a terrible idea in a Trailer.
Chad, I normally don't comment on your channel but felt this might help. I really enjoy the technical breakouts you do so please keep them coming. I have 2 tow vehicles for my trailer and use the Prodigy controller on both. I have noticed that set identical they DO NOT operate the same way. I must adjust and test each controller every time I tow. You are using the truck manufacture controller which is also tied to the truck computer. Those systems are not perfect and can hiccup. Did you try readjusting the controller when you first noticed the break issue. I have been on trips and notice the same issues. I stop and readjust the controller, and everything works as it should. Also, I have always been told that the controller is not there to completely stop the trailer but to apply enough breaking so that the truck stops normally. This may be different for each trailer but that is how i have been told to set it.
Hi Chad, I also enjoy your videos greatly! I've been an Aviation Maintenance Technician for 48 years about to retire. I noticed in your video that the three wires to the unit were power or control and did not see any dedicated ground wire. A must in a DC circuit! Seeing no separate DC ground wire the assumption is it grounds thru the unit case. If the unit is sitting on rubber or plastic the retaining bolts may not be sufficient to complete a good consistent electrical ground. Consider running a separate wire from a good frame structure to a mounting bolt with a star washer that would bite. Good luck and Regards.
Y’all, great videos!
Little background on me, I went to school for automotive and agricultural equipment repair/service.
I wonder if there isn’t a connection inside the actuator that was loose or (for a lack of better terms) ‘faulty’ and the movement of the wires from the testing/re-crimping reconnect those connections. Hard to ever really know for certain since it looked like the actuator is a seal unit.
Keep up the great adventures!!
We did a DIY install of the same components, worked great - then it started acting up - after a lot of trouble shooting I just started re stripping and crimping- turned out it was a intermittent bad crimp of the ring terminal I had at the battery. I would vote that your problem is connector related.
Our 2022 F450 had similar issues with our hydraulic brakes. It was resolved with a trailer brake module update from ford. There was also a recall for this on certain early build 2022 models. Might be worth having a dealer check and perform any updates pending.
I hate intermittent problems, because they always go away when you are testing them. If the issue recurs I would suspect something internal in the hydraulic unit. They do make hydraulic pressure gauges that fit it the bleeder holes if the problem recurs. I don't know how much the cost or where to get them but I do know they exist. This is a tough one buddy, good luck and keep the good stuff coming.
I've had part time brake failure simular bringing the rig home to me from Phoenix AZ to Milwaukee WI. The connector on the trailer had ware. I realize yours is new, but you often plug in unplug. Look at the copper blades in there. Maybe you had loose contact inside the 7-way when brakes faded and with all the reconnecting for these tests, maybe good connections later. I'd look over both the trailer and truck ends. Same for a little corrosion in either. Makes for IFFY pass through of electrons. I ended up with a new 7-way on the trailer and my problem went away.
High resistance, or intermittent connections are a hair puller , that's why most of us have little to no hair , I would double check the ground wire connection if even slightly corroded it can cause intermittent operation
I’ll make my 2 cents short. Power Reset and Ground. Although power reset was needed to clear the problem, something caused it and may cause it again. That very well could be the ground as stated. Since the power from braking comes from the truck battery, the ground should be checked all the way back to the truck battery not just to the trailer chassis. Love your videos by the way.
When I have issues which miraculously fix themselves, I say THANK YOU LORD and keep on moving to the next issue.
I always said those gremlins are afraid of me and ran away.
‘Loved a comment’ by Debbie and KB5
Just a few thoughts on your issue. Not familiar with the pump/actuator assembly you’re using but have seen ABS systems in cars get debris make valves leak. Bleeding “ flushes” it out restoring system pressure. Also you said your battery voltage to unit was 13+ volts but when you pulled the breakaway it put 12+ to system. You should have battery voltage at connections or your getting a drop somewhere. Also something you might want to try if it happens again is to pull the breakaway switch and see if you get strong brake application.
Chad, a couple things I would check.
1. When doing your continuity, check across the connectors, watch your meter while moving the wires around. It’s the same technique I used to troubleshoot fuses that had an intermittent open.
2. Run your brake system check with the Volta system connected. Is it possible that system is backfeeding through the brake controller and changing the control voltage?
3. Since the breaking system uses a positive displacement pump, you must check the condition and operation of the pressure relief valve. Mechanical ones are easy enough to check by measuring the condition and length of the spring. Electrical ones can be more problematic, depending on how easy it is to get to the connectors to check voltage and amperage across those lines.
4. Is there a way to check the hydraulic pressure at one of the brake calipers? Plumbing a gauge at your bleed fitting would not be difficult, but the manufacturer have to let you know what those pressures should be, and I would run those tests with the Volta system connected and disconnected to see if there is a difference.
I'll just add another thing to recheck. I don't really have anything to add as far as electrical goes, but I did notice the calipers have 2 bleeders on them. Make sure you bleed the one in the highest position, or if you do both, do the highest one last. If you only do the lower, or do it last, it could trap just a bit of air in the line and you will never get a firm pedal (or in this case full engagement). Good luck with the trouble shooting
I would check and see if the problem comes back while the hydraulic system is hot after some heavy use. If you'd been on and off the brakes shortly before you experienced the diminished braking, the actuator may be fine when cold and then not supply enough hydraulic pressure when hot under a continuous use situation.
I'd also check all of the brake pad caliper seats for corrosion as I did see rust in the area and remove any build up and lube the slide slots with permatex. You could have had one or two sticking.
Also it's been about 3 years so the fluid probably could use a change. If its gone hydroscopic and abdorbed alot of water in the system, the brakes will be fine under normal conditions but get spongy when heat is added to the equation. I would do this before replacing the actuator.
It could have been a bad connection aswell as air in the system which you sorted and just are not sure.
Great video. The only thing that I could think of was a connection where it goes into the actuator. Maybe moving the wires got the power back on the unit. If it goes out again. It might be that the wires going in the box might not be getting a great connection .
Chad that look on your face when they held is priceless!!!
Hey Chad, we’re having the exact same issue!
We have a 2024 Chevy 3500HD and there are currently two service bulletins advising to change out the trailer brake controller and now the socket for the 7 pin. What was happening in our situation is that the RV (solar) was back feeding into the truck after the batteries were fully charged, causing the service wrench to activate on the electric parking brake. When that would happen, we would lose our trailer brakes.
From the first time we connected to the RV with this truck, I’ve always felt like the trailer brakes never grabbed like they should.
The truck is back in the shop for the second service bulletin. This has been mind boggling to me so I feel your frustration!
I’ve done the testing as well and also disconnected the wire inside the pin box to eliminate back feeding and I’m still having the same problem.
Good sound troubleshooting technique. I thing the gremilins were at it.
Hey Chad. I don’t have a clue what caused the issue you described. I don’t have a 5th Wheel or trailer. I am however an RV’r since 2019; B+ MB Van (technically a C). My wife and I have been following you and Tara for years. I watch your non travel videos and “we” watch your travel videos. My point for leaving a comment is to let you know that we learn from your videos and are entertained and get travel ideas by your channel as well. We appreciate your creativity which we know is hard work. Thought you and Tara would like to know you have at least 2 admires of your work that aren’t part of the 5th Wheel/travel trailer community. Yes we leave a like😊. We look forward to your next project.
Thank you for the continued support! 😊
Chad, I saw the video on CZcams and found it very interesting. I know it is in a gm truck but it might help. Frank
“Major trailer brake issue with 2023/2024 GM trucks “
Mike Sokol has talked about an issue on Chevy trucks that have something to do with lithium on the unit and the computer brake controller on the truck. People were reporting the trailer brakes not working
We have a bumper pull and our brake controller isn't as involved as yours, but we had an intermittent problem with the brakes not working and it turned out to be a loose ground wire.
You checked everything. I had put hydraulic over on our rig and they were not working. Went through the same process as you. Checked for air in the line starting at the furthest brake working my way up closest to the actuator, nothing no air. Brake fluid shot out about four inches. Then I got a new actuator, this time fluid shot a lot further. Success. If you do replace the actuator, there was a prime for the actuator by putting on its back. You have a different model but check with the manufacturer.
Critical points. Voltage doesn’t mean amperage. Ohms doesn’t mean ability to carry current.
One thread of copper wire hanging on can read proper voltage and low or zero resistance. When a load is applied (the brake system motor) the voltage will drop due to the inability to carry current.
You did the right thing by testing the wires at the actuator. However, you should have load tested them after the crimps
A dirty field tech trick is an old headlamp bulb. 5-7 amp draw. If the wires can light the lamp, they have the ability to carry current and operate the load.
If you still have those crimps you cut out, and there is enough wire left. Load test them and see. You may still be able to prove your problem.
When you measured your voltage on your control wire the voltage was good. What we did not discover was the actual DC Amps that were flowing. I suspect that your splice connection was suspect since you changed them. Doing the ohm test on the cutout connection would not prove a defective connection as amp draw would have . Just a thought anyway.
Chad it is interesting the problem you have. I hope the splices were the problem
Have you thought about break fade. When the breaks heat up you lose potential breaking power. So when you are doing your test the breaks are cold so you would get 100% breaks. Just a thought, I off road alot in the rocky mountains, and that is one thing we need to watch
It's always a good idea to do a trailer brake only check after every hookup. I recall years ago my father always checked his brakes twice, at a slow speed near the camp spot and at speed such as 30 to 40 MPH and he pushed the trailer brakes hard enough to get the trailer tires to skid or make that sound they were, which indicated they are working up to maximum ability.
Maybe you should have done a resistance test or a voltage drop test on connections 👍
Talk about timing. Just pulled the RV into storage and stated that I felt like my brakes on the trailer were not strong. I have the exact issue as you did - and I was thinking maybe pads? I pulled the emergency brake switch and the Hydrastar initialized as it should. When I test the brakes, my truck continues and never stops as it normally should with max brakes. I too was thinking air in the line - I was going to bleed them etc... looks like I need to work through this as well. Just odd that two different makes of Truck (Ram) and Trailer (Riverstone) are expereiencing the exact same issue. Bizzare. I have some investigating to do - unfortunately no resolution yet.
The list never ends! LOL
What Daniel said below, even though on your volt meter you show no resistance, you do need to apply a load somehow to the connection and test.
May be a bad connection inside the unit and when you were re crimping it made the wire in question in a better position for a better connection. I have seen it before with controllers for stuff at work.
I would check my ground connections...you will get good voltage readings because your meter will have bee grounded properly
We both have similar 450’s. I had mine in for a low voltage problem (steering assist module). They also found a bad brake controller module. We tow an 18,000 lb fifth wheel and I didn’t notice the brake controller having a problem. You might want to have the dealer check to see if your brake controller module is ok. Just throwing that out there.
Ours is similar, and we loose fluid from the hydro star. No leaks that we can find, but I add 25-30 ml of dot 4 brake fluid ever 5-7k miles.
Welcome to the wacky world of RV mechanics. I don't know and I am not familiar with that system. Perhaps it was anouther connection that wasn't making good contact under load. It worked before so it may have been a little corrosion some ware. Moving the wires may have improve the connection.
Chad, forgive me, there are so many posts here supporting the TS efforts, I wish I could scan them all. I hope I’m not duplicating here, but I too had upgraded our rig with the ISS with the new pad and rotor vendor (I’m super impressed with their performance) in Oct and on my way home back in the DC area I noticed my breaking capacity diminished significantly after sitting in the heavy DC stop and go traffic for about an hour. I started doing some homework (military tech order studying) and after reading Hydrastars manuals on their website, seems the actuator doesn’t like prolonged periods of use which seems to cause it to overheat which I’m guessing causes it to overtemp some of the internals and valves? In my case I noticed that the actuator was much louder than normal during its “failed” period. Ours too returned to normal performance standards on the start of another day and has been operating as advertised for the moment. I’ve not been in heavy traffic since so I can’t replicate this scenario ATT.
Some things to note as you start your travels and checking tire temps, maybe check actuator body temps and see if there is a performance standards correlation. I was going to suggest glazed break pad and rotors but you and I have a duplicated condition with different pad/rotor vendors.
Did you check the fuses involved? Brake controller, actuator, any fuses in those circuits. It is possible you have a fuse that isn't quite bad or the socket they plug into is dirty or has picked up some moisture. I have seen 12v fuses that are not quite blown still allow power thru but at a lower amperage until they actually blow.
Could possibly of been a crimp connection as when you put a draw of current/voltage through it the resistance then could be a few ohms. You could of tested this under full load and test each crimp connection with a volt meter to see if you have any voltage drop. After some use the connection could get warmer do to a slightly bad connection heating up and causing resistance to go up. Otherwise spooky gremlins at their best. Sometimes just redoing connections may solve issues. I personally like soldering all wiring connections then crimp cap them off or up front before soldering have shrink tubing on and shrink it on after soldering the connection.
True.. I can't tell how many tickets I signed off as "reseated connections", working on aircraft in the Navy.
Hey buddy, I believe it was the ground crimp connection... 9 times of 10 the ground connection is the issue with lights or trailer brakes.
Hey Chad, in my many years I have seen many crimp connections fail. I no longer use them, I always soldier. Like you found they don't always fail completely, but will fail under a load (high amperage).
I think it was a grounding problem, you fixed it when you cut the ole connector out, it doesn't take much to mess up voltage, a ground is a must, I done power line work before, a lineman, so I know a little bit about grounding equipment, and a few problem with grounds on my trailers
This might sound crazy, but a frozen caliper pin will cause "soft pedal". Not saying that's your issue, but it's worth checking. If all pins are free, I would change that actuator. I assume it works a lot like an ABS modulator and can cause a soft pedal as well, but typical it wouldnt be intermittent. I've been a mechanic for the past 28 years, so going off of what I've actually diagnosed in the past.
By cutting out the splices you may have found a loose wire or a wire that’s grounding on the wire you move around by removing the splices and redoing them cause it to make contact again I had this happen to me in house wiring and took about thirty hours of searching through every wire too find one that had a poor connection
If the system fails again, try pulling the emergency brake away cable and see if the trailer breaks apply.
Which bleeder fitting did you use to bleed the breaks; hopefully you used the top fitting. Air will go to the highest point in the break caliper.
The crimp connector reading 0 Ohms is not a true value of current capacity; you need a high current to apply the brakes.
Just a thought, I would flush the brake fluid and see if it is discolored.
I wish you well
Whew! You have the same affliction I often suffer diagnosing and fixing things. So many issues I am presented with that make absolutely no sense whatsoever. Case in point, why does my scooter overheat when i verified the water pump flows the antifreeze just fine?
I had intermittent brake issues as well. Bad connection in the wire connector going to my 7way on the truck. Water got in there and corroded the connection. It was hard to figure out as well when it only happens when you need your brakes to work.😂
I would add just one thing. Did you check for a good ground. I'm not talking just a visual, I mean remove and clean. I spent 35 years fixing planes and wasted so much troubleshooting time because I didn't check grounds first. Loose grounds can give you the weirdest issues.
I have the same brake controller with a 2019 F450 and while my symptoms are different, I wouldn't rule the truck out entirely. Stopping at speed, it's like a threw an anchor out, the brake grab like crazy. Slowing down to a stop at a light, however, can be spicy. Ford, as you mentioned in the video, has speed sensitive brakes, and they are way too aggressive at backing off the braking at low speed. I hate it! I'm often on the manual control coming to a complete stop because the truck will just "fade" away the RV braking as you go slower and slower. Yes, I know why (to prevent lockup), but my RV weighs close to 26K, lockup is NOT a concern, it takes almost max braking at slow speed (manually applied) to get a lockup.
I don't think this is your issue, but wanted throw it out there.
CRC Electronic cleaner works best for cleaning & Permatax Dielectric grease after.
Check voltage drops with hooked up and malfunctioning and don’t forget checking ground wire voltage drops. And your signal wire circuit relies on the truck ground connection between truck and trailer. Seen a lot of issues correct after reconnecting trailer due to grounding through hitch not harness hopefully this might help
I suggest that you read the hydraulic pressure at each caliper