How Car Companies Lie About Power For The Better😉 | Explained Ep.30
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- čas přidán 16. 09. 2023
- A wise man once said, “horsepower sells cars but torque wins races”. The latter can be argued into infinity but what has been overwhelmingly true for the last 60 years, since the dawn of the muscle car era is that advertised horsepower sells cars.
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Honda owners are gonna swear their car is underrated by 100HP after this.
Aye chill on us😂
thay is why they use lots of stickers
@jamdc2000 wings are more affective
turbo 2.0 foamin at the mouth rn
Nah, every honda I have driven is overrated by 100 horsepower lmao.
BMW was known to test the net HP with everything on. Highest A/C setting, all lights, stereo, seat and wheel heaters etc. They just were being honest about true net HP.
Yeah, same goes for many eu brands whereas brands like tesla are built on lies
Yeah. They're basically saying "no matter what you do, you'll still have AT LEAST this many ponies"
that is because in the past much of Europe has used permutations of the DIN HP testing principles, which in the past meant guaranteed minimum warranted power, which means the power after parasitic consumers, using an example used on lorry's, DIN HP was the minimum HP observed during a 1hour dyno test, consequently, given DIN HP was guaranteed minimum warranted power, manufactures would always be conservative in their HP statements, with HP often being >10% more than stated, to avoid warranty engine replacements, especial in industrial and farming sectors, given it is much easer to get dyno readings of PTO and gearbox outputs.
to do proper dyno testing can take tens of hours, given you need to spend >1h at each RPM step, to plot the lowest observed torque at that RPM.
while modern HP standards are not a rigorous as the old DIN methods in Europe, though they still require parasitic consumers present like PAS, AC, fans, alternators and the water pump operating, unlike some some SAE methods which can have many, most or all parasitic consumers of power missing, including sometimes fundamentals like the water pump etc.
stereo on? but HPs vary depending on the song...
“Useless information on crash test ratings and fuel consumption” ….so much truth in this statement 😂
😂😂
Another indirect way to say your american
@@zaags You’re**
The spelling, ‘your’ imposes ownership over something, while you’re is reserved for statements in which a noun is followed by a verb; ‘you are’, for example, a correct use of your and you’re would be:
Your comment is implying that I should be ashamed of being American, however you’re here in the comments section of a video celebrating American cars, which I guess is another way of saying you’re envious that I am American and you are not. :-)
Crash test ratings being useless, it tells you how well a car is engineered. The Corvette C8 disintegrates in accidents from news reports I have seen.
Another indirect way to say you're American
Japanese car companies: I lied about the horsepower, it can go much faster
American car companies: haha more horsepower = more $
Don't forget the 2003/04 Terminator Cobra. Rated at 390 hp/390 Tq at the crank. People routinely got closer to 400 at the wheels.
That Modular V8 is one of my favorite besides the Voodoo
Yeah, Ford REALLY didn't want another '99 Cobra incident.
It was closer to 360-390 hp at the wheels and 420-450 hp at the crank.
@@Epotheros A guy I saw had a cold air intake and cat-back exhaust and got 408 at the wheels.
@@Swervin309I was using data from a list of owners on the SVT Performance forum who had their Cobra's dyno'd circa 2005. Reported rwhp numbers for unmodified SVT Cobras were: 368, 358 (389 with CAI), 363, 393, 374, and 372. That averages out to 371 rwhp.
Lightly modified were 388 (just a K&N filter on a dynojet), 393 (K&N and cat back, 389 (CAI), 374 (K&N filter), and 391 (K&N filter). That averages to 387 rwhp when lightly with a CAI filter and or exhaust.
In Europe in many Countries you pay Tax per Hp so it absolutly makes sense to rate the car at "lower Power"
What countries are those? I lived in Europe a decade in several countries and never heard that. Italy had a higher tax band over two liters, which is why Ferrari had a 208 model (just under 2L V-8) with turbo, while the rest of the world had the 308 (3L V-8). Despite the extra cost of the turbo, the 208 was cheaper to the end customer.
@@lqr824in Italy you pay a tax called "bollo" the more hp you have (or to be precise the more kw you have). And if you have more than 185kw you have to pay an additional tax called "super bollo" which makes it almost impossible for a commoner to own a powerful car since you have to pay thousands of euros per year just because you own that car.
@@robertseba1795 Do they also have different tax categories for displacement, or is was that replaced by this HP tax?
Britain historically had a tax that was stated in terms of "horsepower" but in fact it was a horsepower that was calculated based on the cylinder count times cylinder BORE. Not on measured power, nor even on displacement. This is why the Jaguar E-type had a very small bore and long stroke: to keep the tax low. That might have ended in the 1960s or 1970s though.
@@lqr824In Germany displacement is still the main tax component, 2 euros per 100 cubic centimeters for petrol and 9.50 euros for a diesel. To which an emissions tax is also added, if your car produces more than 95 grams of CO2 per kilometer.
There is an exception for vehicles older than 30 years, which meet the conditions for an H-registration. They all pay 191.73 euros (46.02 if it's a motorcycle).
Norway
If I can fund a coffee or two for making these videos I will. Thank you for sharing the history of these vehicles, manufacturers and engines. Your channel is incredible and deserves a lot more than I can give.
Other things that effect 0-60 and quarter mile times is final drive and gearing, so a car could be quicker, but need to shift sooner and therefore be slower to 60 or 1/4 mile. Cars can get heavier and throw off the increased horsepower. EE did a nice video comparing the lighter Integra to the M2 where the thrust feels similar, but the FWD limits the 0-60 compared to the M2, despite it having more power.
It might be slower to 60 because shifts or traction it won't be slower in the quarter though all things equal. 0-60 is a stupid useless Stat that puts a magnifying glass on traction or lack thereof not so much power. Cars are powerful enough now to where it has become a useless traction based Stat.
Remember that it is running low on torque while heavy.
Amazing animations and I especially love the 80's vibe that you create in your videos. Absolute ❤ from India.
I'm in awe of his animations. The accuracy in detail, looks, and shapes of them all are always spot on
I dont understand why Americans or Aussies dont like to do it, but the dyno can actually also calculate the powertrain loss as accurate as it measures the power output. Thats why many european who are on the dyno, quickly shift to neutral and let the car roll out in this gear position. Many say that it isnt accurate. But if you dont trust the accuracy of this method, then you also should have to doubt the accuracy of the power output measuring, because its the same principal just "backwards".
There is also a german youtube channel, which dynos lots of cars and d
Theyre doing a weekly video of a dyno day. And 80% of stock cars theyre measuring have the advertised engine power output within 1PS difference. The other 20% are those which over- or under perform.
This shows that this method is prety accurate.
@@G.J.G.P.What’s the name of the channel?
@@sstevocamaro halle 77 dortmund playlist: eure autos auf der rolle
Great video. According to Dinan's website, they've tested the B58 at 353 HP. BMW rates them at 322.
Hahaha that's cool, wonder how that ties into the built in power gauges
@@KolbPRODit’s measured by the transmission clutch/flywheel and it records NM/torque. The gauges are a great way to see if your car is pulling power or if something else is off with the motor (vanos, valvelift, coils etc) just by monitoring the gauges.
BMW definitely lies about their HP. They lie down. Their vehicles usually produce more than what they advertise, in my experience💯
M5 CS makes 710 at the wheels, around 780 at crank, BMW claims 710.
Seems bmw ratings are for wheel hp Supra was rated 382 and tested at 383 wheel on car and driver
Your videos, especially the motion graphics/animations, just keep getting better. Outstanding.
Some of us with grey hair may disagree with crash testing and efficiency being useless, but its still another great video. Love how you combine history and engineering. 👍
facts the combo of history an da engineering is real good way of learning
I think that was a joke. Lol
He throws on sarcastic jokes in quite often without ever shifting his tone
@@PavelisLord Yeah, maybe I took it too literally. If you drive like a madman then economy and safety are second. 🙂
Honestly he's got a good point. Crash testing is misses a lot of important factors. Better to see what the insurance companies say since they base the rankings from irl data.
Fuel consumption is also kinda off since modern cars recognize test conditions and use very aggressive fuel saving measures.
After getting crushed by the dashboard of a Hyundai tiburon… I won’t get in a car under 4k lbs. my Beamer is a tank she wouldn’t budge at 100 in a wreck.
There was actually quite a few differences between the US and JDM 2JZ engines resulting in different output. USDM version has steel turbos instead of ceramic, bigger injectors, big cams, and afm/maf + map instead of just map. Not to say it wasn't underrated in Japan, probably pushing closer to 300, but still fairly major differences.
Gentleman's agreement that's why
@@ilham7345do your research thats not actually why.
@@johndc2998it is why all Japanese sport cars were under rated hp at the time
Also the JDM a80 had vvti while the usdm didn't.
@@kilotiger7780 I can't remember if later gen US ones did get it, or early gen JDM ones didn't have it, but pretty sure there was a weird edge case for that, but otherwise yes.
Fun fact that most people don’t know: four years after the embarrassment of the 1999 cobra, the same engine was used in the 2003 Mach 1. This time around Ford learned from their mistake. The Mach 1 made MORE hp and trq while also being rated LESS than the 99 cobra. In reality it made 332hp and 355trq while being rated at 305hp and 320trq.
With a 6 speed those cars would be perfect.
The Mach 1and the cobra are not the same engine. They both were aluminum block and 281 in. The SVT cobra was a 9.8.1 compression ratio & the Mach 1 was 10.1. The 96-99 cobra used a teksid block while the 03-04 Mach 1 used a WAP block. The 99& 01 cobras put down around 272 whp, Mach 1 5 speeds put down around 275-280 sae. You also have to remember that a solid rear axle will put out higher rear wheels numbers than the irs cobra.
@@jayf429 you missed the entire point of what I said. This video is about underrating and overrating power numbers. The blocks have perfectly interchangeable parts. The only reason the WAP blocks had to be made is because the Italian company that made the teksid blocks decided to stop making them for ford so ford had to make their own. The dimensions are virtually identical.
So instead of responding to both what 337 SPEED said and also my point, you instead go off an a tangent about details that don’t make any difference here.
Seriously bro you need to improve your reading skills. If I start talking about ice hockey you’re the kind of weirdo that will bring up poker or World War One or something.
So either talk about rated vs actual power numbers or stop talking
@@carado1984 True! But it’s biggest need by far was wider tires. Those tiny 245’s are just awful for something with that much torque
@@jayf429the 03 mach1 is the same aluminum block engine from the 99-01 cobra. This after they recalibrated the 99 cobra engine during the recall. The Mach 1 also shares engines with the marauder, mark 8 and navigator.
M3 comp makes 545 to the wheels, and BMW says 503 lmao.
“More power makes you go fast in a straight line; less weight makes you faster _everywhere_ .” - Colin Chapman.
Thank you for putting all this time into these videos! I can’t get enough from 337speed!
As always, another good production. Always like how you put in clips of dyno tests, burnouts and all the like. Really gives it that extra flare.
Simply put from an old school dude.
Horsepower = how Fast you hit the wall.
Torque = how far you push it, once you come in contact with it.
How is this channel not blown up popular. Really well put together videos. Just wanted to drop some respect in your comments section.
People nowadays worry about how many avocado toasts they can eat in their Tesla than how much HP cars actually make.
Love how you break down the math and tuning and the controversial subjects of horsepower and torque!
My man 50grand! Your channel is the shiznizzle! Don't stop makin these videos for all us true gear heads! Straight up!!!
Seems that recently, mainstream turbocharged consumer cars have underrated HP numbers
Germans have been underrating their engines for a long time.
My 2012 BMW 116i is a great example of that, from the factory they have "136hp" but they actually have 140hp at the rear wheels
@@kristoffer3000that's still dog shit slow. But the M5 is the goat as are as false HP😂
@@invalidusername_5101 for a normal, affordable car it's really not bad, it's not very heavy.
I did remap mine though, 200hp now which is more than enough for the roads here.
Timed it from 0-100kmh in 6.8 sec.
I think a lot of them are trying to test under worst possible conditions like low quality fuel on a hot day with some thicker oil than expected. Something that puts the engine in a "most conservative" state for ignition timing, injectors, etc. That way, if someone puts 87 octane from walmart in their Porsche and does a dyno pull on a summer day in Arizona, it'll still probably hit the advertised power rating, in spite of the owner's best efforts.
@@themanwithsauce most if not all performance cars require 93 tho
Dude, I've been following you for a while and your stuff consistently gets better and better. Keep up the good work!
The quality of these videos is unmatched in the car sphere of youtube, good stuff
This and the "so you want" series when alex still did them
Your explanation of Torque and Power was so good that I have just subscribed to your channel. Congratulations!
It's not just about the hp. It's also the rest of the drivetrain. The transmission, rear end, etc. I've seen 700 hp old Camaro's run 12's and I've seen 500 hp old Camaro's run 10s, because of the differences in gearing and the transmission they had installed . These newer cars have 8 to 10 gear auto trans, so you can put a high rear-end ratio (3.90+) in them and they'll both accelerate hard and cruise like a kitten on the interstate.
If a 700 hp old camaro is running 12s it has alot of problems besides just gearing and trans choices.
The 10 speeds are aggressive geared and don't need steep gearing they work best with 3.15
@@midnight347 That is true enough, but, in a way, also a build problem if the driver can't handle the output correctly,
@@midnight347 True. The Mustangs have a 3:15 base, and the Camaro's have 3.27 with their auto, I believe. A lot of other performance cars, Mopars, BMWs, etc seem to have 3,90s, though.
Also weight difference in cars is a huge factor. A 500hp car could beat a 700hp car because the 700 hp car is too heavy. Dont just compare hp. Compare the Power to Weight ratio of each car for more accuracy. The wrong diameter tires. You want faster Launch? Don't use 22" wheels. Use 16". Tires and wheels can be too heavy causing too much rolling resistance. Aerodynamics can make a lower hp car beat a car with more power. Transmissions that lose too many RPM's between shifts can kill your 1/4 mile times.
Every time I watch a video on this channel, I just want to go out and make LS sounds in my Corvette 😂
Me too! But my LS sounds come out of a CTS-V
I just wanted to say you have a really great channel. I’ve learned a lot and it’s represented so well and simple and with wisdom. Salute.
The production value and the explanations are just brilliant!
This is one of my most fav channels by far! , not just entertainment but i gain so much more knowledge than before
Also keep in mind, the 72 4-4-2 Olds was rated at 360 hp by factory. Later people diagnosed it with over 410 hp, a friend bought one to rebuild for 9k in bad shape, it started after a bit of work, because he wanted an before and after we went to the nearest dyno and it run 386 at the wheels.
Also, muscle cars got sold with open exhausts, for exsample the chrysler 300 is even in germany legal with a straightpipe. Exhaust manifolds were race oriented, not as clunky as the one u showed but we got the drift. Something to note is the Carb aswell, new rebuilds use better carbs, newer and advanced ones, which obviously make more power due to being more efficient.
Great and awesome video, Keep it on!
Great video. Great playlist! Thank you so much for this playlist! ❤
Genuinely some of the best videos on yt💯🔥
BMW has been doing that for decades. Rating their horsepower and torque output under the worst possible situation. Heat soaked, low quality fuel and so on.
My 2012 116i is a great example of that, they are supposed to make 136hp but they actually make 140hp at the rear wheels.
Exact same engine as the 118i and a few years of 120i as well so it remaps to 200-220hp and if you're so inclined the auto box is the ZF8hp45 which is rated for 450nm so it remaps extremely safely, actual performance bargain.
Great videos bro keep them coming
I remember how my jaw dropped when I learned the factory rating for 429 Boss Mustang. 375 HP feels awfully low for a Hemi engine even bigger than that of the Mopar 426 Hemi, but then I learned that it might have been a tax thing and the potential for 500 HP was most definitely there
But as is, it's not even 400hp and gross that is
@@goldenltd1970 At least there's an entire valley of torque to smoke the tires out
Keep it up! Love these types of videos and helping all Car lovers understand their engines and drivetrains, their elevation and climate enviroment play a factor in their car's respective performance! Particularly depending in Manufacturer!
Great video as always, i try to share them to as many people as possible to up your counts,keep it up
2:59 Finally someone answered this properly. So many people come up with ridiculous answers to a nonsensical question. This is the only correct answer.
I mean not really, if you're mentioning torque and power, you have to mention revs
Not really... This explanation is ridiculous too.
Power is how much work engine can do in time.
@@FirssenSimracing yep, torque + revs = power, so nothing is more important than average power across the usable power band through gearing
There was in some countries some optimization with the taxes, especially horspower taxes. Manufacturers advertised the maximum hp they could to stay on a specific category, while providing 10-20% more, to advertise better perfomance figures than the competition.
The early 135i's had secondary cats in the midpipes. Later they got rid of them in production (maybe after/because of the N55 engine change). They also don't come with a boost gauge. (Clever) Supposedly the stock N54 is 300hp running 8.8psi of boost. I took off the stock catted midpipes for some Berk midpipes and installed a manual boost gauge to discover the stock engine making almost 13psi, no tuning.
Another great video, like usual!
favorite car content on youtube, love the aesthetic and explanations.
It’s good that you gave credit to Buick for their turbo 3.8 in the 80s, but Ford and Mopar ware also running turbos on some of their performance cars as well. In the Ford camp there was the SVO Mustang and Thunderbird Supercoupe. Mother Mopar was slapping a turbo on a lot of their lineup. Even their Caravan was available with a turbo
And you can get that caravan turbo with a 5spd manual and run high 11s with basic mods+ stripping the interior, the mopar GLSH and turbo Daytonas were prett fast back in the day, there was even a turbo Trans Am
I was going to post the same thing. Everyone forgets that America can build turbo cars.
It was Americans who wanted big NA in their American cars.
@@wutang80oc39that turbo trans am had displacement and boost, and only made 200 hp
@@ellisjackson3355then in 89 they put the GNX 3.8 turbo in a limited Trans am. The 89 turbo TA runs with the 4th gen LS1. In 89 that was ridiculously fast
the quality of the fuel used is also very important, especially on new turbo engine (high compression)
manufacturer use the worst fuel possible for the rating
so if you buy an M3 in a country with low octane fuel, you still have 550hp .... but with high octane fuel you have more power ...
I just want to say GoD bless you Sir for taking the time to put these AMAZING videos together, you are among a dying breed of OG’s who master their craft and put in the time to study, understand and impart knowledge 📚. You are 🔥
Love your videos bro. Good stuff. Keep them coming.
Always learning so much!
Yet another reason why I love this channel!
Bro keep these videos coming man. WE LOVE IT!!!!!
Holy crap your videos are great. Keep up the great work.
these videos are FIRE! SO much to learn here!
The LS is such a legend. My first v8 engine was the ls3. What a monster, that car scared me at first. I was just after tired of being slow and driving Japanese “sports” cars. I’ll never go back in a performance car, daily is different. Just another world, sound, and smiles. Screw mpg.
One of the cars that's so underlooked is 911 Turbo S
992 Turbo S makes more than 700hp but is rated at 650 and does laughable times like 9.9 in 1/4 mile with the "lightweight package" which is like 30 kgs lighter than the normal car
Wasn't the 03-04 cobra doing the underrating too? I remember hearing that they made more than what the factory said.
They were a lot of times making at the wheels what they were rated at the motor.
Magnificent video as always sir🍷🗿🤌
Honestly, I'd rather have automakers underrate their performance characteristics than overrate them.
It also gives car journalists something to test and verify. For enthusiasts, they can potentially obtain better value through purchase/insurance simply by being in the know.
In the 90s, a "276 hp" car was cheaper to insure than a 300+ hp one, and the $25k+ premium on a Corvette over a Camaro with the same engine was a value consideration.
Great production as always
Your videos are awesome as always. Extremely professional and very enjoyable to watch and listen. 🤟🤟🤟
I love these videos, learning a lot thanks.
The reason why McLaren understates the actual horsepower figure is really simple. The Senna is McLaren's halo car. The Senna costs 1M$ and has 900HP while the 765LT is cheaper but makes closer to 900HP. So, who would buy the Senna when there is a car that has more horsepower but with a price tag of less than half of that.
Sucks that literally none of this would matter to the future electric “car guys”
Your videos are so good keep it up!
Just saw this. Great video. Thanks
Great job as always. Love the way way you break things down and explain them.
Great video sir.
It also depends on which type/brand of dynamometer is used for the testing. Just as different brands of radar guns will give different readings for the same baseball pitches, so will different dynos give varying readings for the same engines.
The B58 is an incredible engine. Delivers great power and when driven conservatively I routinely get 35+ mpg in the highway.
BMW definitely underrated their power and MPG! My g05 x5 was rated 26mpg Highway from the factory, but I’m getting 28-29 mpg while driving 85-90 mph on the highway.
With so many cars available on the market, it's not really that hard to figure out a route of an avarage petrol head guy:
you start with something like Golf GTI, proceed to M3, proceed to 911/McLaren if really rich. Nurburgring is a live proof of that.
Great video as always! 337 Speed delivering best explanations on worlds top automotive insdustry! Keep the quality coming!
No one should ever start with a vw or bmw. You will be broke within months of fixing things that don’t break on any other car
@@ThorOdinson-zc2kq Thats true in america, not europe.
@@Xtcent no it only affects German and Italian engineers, not Japanese or American
Wow! Great job on the research and presentation! This is what car CZcams should be!
Man Knows His Stuff! subbed. 🛠 👊😎
Back with another BANGER!
Another thing to know here is that the engines always have manufacturing tolerances, which can affect the performance during the production run of the car, so to take the eventual power losses into account, all car manufacturers (at least from what I know) lower the measured power and torque by a bit, and some manufacturers might subtract quite a generous amount of power, just to be shure.
Also: drivetrain losses are much lower nowadays than 40 years ago, so I highly doubt any modern drivetrain eats 15% of the Power.
Awesome explanation! Today I learned something new.
Thank you for another fantastic video. The 1999 mustang cobra lower output was due to a manufacturing defect when machining the intake leaving behind excess aluminum and not being to spec. Supposedly same with the cat and mufflers creating too much backptessure. Choking the engine out on both ends 🫁🤷♂️
Dope channel. This is why CZcams is so great.
We need a big block Chevy video
Im telling you bro this channel will be amazing to have in spanish. Super great content and info.
Great video. I had a 1999 Cobra which I promptly (6 months later) traded for a 2000 SS Camaro, both mentioned in the video. As advertised, the Cobra was 320 HP and Camaro 325. I always knew there was a much larger disparity between them, but until now just summed that up on the Camaro's additional torque numbers. One being a bit overrated and one being underrated, that makes a whole lot of sense to me.
I worked at OPEL GM in Vienna, Audi in Neckarsulm, Volvo in Gent, VW in Bratislawa, Magna in Graz ( Supra, G-Klasse ) and every car manufactor has a HP tolerance between 5%-10%.
You can take 2 engines in a row, directly from the production line, and the HP numbers could be different.
Great vid
Very intresting video, like always.
As a truck driver i definitely love torque
Good video, thank you 👍🏻
euro cars being secretly overpowered is probably because in some countries you pay more insurance for more powerful cars.
Amazing information. 👏
I love how almost every Dyno video you featured was stuff just blowing up!
Dyno-might!
Pleasure to watch. Thank you.
You do a great job man👍 Many thanks
The GTR is a perfect example… rated 600 hp for the nismo but real hp 590 whp….
911 turbos are grossly underrated….
The look and disbelief on the face of my friend losing in his dads 99 corvette when I smoked him in my 98 Z will always be in my memory.
Great video! New subs ❤
Great video, very informative.
I like torque over HP, but I’m a truck guy.
Lying about horsepower and torque in the positive is not good for insurance because it hits you in the negative. Years back the underrated engine power for that specific reason
This was the case for Fords 03-04 Mach 1. They rated them at 305 but bone stock would put 280hp to the wheels. The 98 Cobra rated 315hp only put down about 265-270.
Ahhh you played a clip of my favorite ridiculous car commercial - the Twin. Turbos. Kick. In. 300zx. Had one of those in pearl white with t tops in 2005. Was so cool.
Great as always
The 1970 chevelle ss 454 was one of those that was underrated. That 454 in 1970 was a monster.
Absolutely great video