Tankless Hot Water Review- After 1 Year - Honest Customer Review
Vložit
- čas přidán 30. 07. 2024
- We've been using a Navien NPE-180A tankless hot water system for a year now, and we thought we'd give an honest review of the pros and cons of going to a tankless hot water system from an owner's perspective. Spoiler alert: After one year, we're happy we chose the Navien tankless system vs. a standard hot water tank system. It isn't perfect though. There are some trade offs, so here's the pros and cons we've seen over the past year.
Pros:
• Endless Hot Water
• Less Wasteful (when not being used)
• Supporting the Movement/Industry
Cons:
• Probably More Expensive Upfront
• Less consistent heat (when more than one person is using it)
• Maintenance is needed
• Requires electrical power
• Little extra noise compared to our old hot water tank system
Also, here's some possible FYIs:
• It is a condensing system, so it will drain a little excess water... and in our case, that required us to buy an extra device. (If you have a drain lower than the bottom of the unit, this might not apply to you.)
• Extra sump pump is needed, if you plan to flush the system yourself (which you totally should - it isn't difficult!)
• Extra room/space around the unit is really nice - especially around the bottom of the unit. This helps when it comes time to flush the system.
• Venting will likely need to be different than if you had a hot water tank. These tankless units require fresh air intake and exhaust vent.
That's our review of the Navien tankless hot water system after using it for a year. Please leave a comment and let me know if this was helpful or not? Or if you think I missed anything? Thanks for watching!
Ours works flawless for five six years, without annual flushing.
By year six, water started getting cold mid-shower temperamentally.
And it gets very frequent in the seventh year.
I’d decided to flush it yesterday. No pump at home, just two used shower hoses with 20mm threaded ends.
Manually injecting 1L of vinegar repeatedly for about an hour or two, until vinegar turns blue-ish green.
Purge and rinse everything, and its all back to good now.
Thanks for taking the time. You're a good man!
I really appreciate your review. We had a Navien NPE-240A tankless hot water system installed 4 months ago. Our HVAC is enclosed and there was enough room to get the old tank out, but today's tanks are bigger, and installing one would have required removing a wall. So we decided to go with a tankless. We have adjusted to it fairly well, but were concerned about the noise. Doing a web search only returned results about problem noises, so i am glad to learn that a little extra noise is normal.
We have had our Navien 240 about 6 months and were also surprised at how noisy it is. Works fine for providing hot water, but it can be annoying to listen to it spool up under load. Fortunately it is silent at night when we are not using hot water.
@@mj8495 By now it has become background noise that is barely noticeable. Not as loud as the furnace or air condioner.
I really appreciate your review along with helpful extra tips. As well, you expressed how you may have done things differently looking back.
We have a Navien NPE240A tankless water heater. We had an issue and got a error code E445 for a "Bypass Mixing Valve Fault". Our heated water was sporadic while using large volumes of hot water. They have some of the best customer support and knowledgeable tech department that I have ever used. They sent my replacement part not only free (since it was under warranty) but also next day service. They have genuine care and concern for their customers/consumers. We have had ours for 3 years and will buy another for our camp. This thing has never missed a beat except for this one issue and they bent over backwards to help us get it fixed. You will have to be licensed (or have a licensed plumber/Electrician performing repairs) before they will provide you with extensive in depth tech support covering all aspects of the unit from plumbing to electrical. These are high tech well engineered water heaters but easy to work on if need be.
Good to know that their Customer Service was helpful. I hope I don't ever have to find out myself! Thanks for the comment, it really is nice to hear other experiences, so we know what to expect if something does go wrong. Cheers!
I'm looking at installing one in my house. But looking at the snow in the street, I would go with NPE240A to address temperature inconsistency especially in the winter.
Just what I needed...thanks for taking the time to make this video....Excellent!!!!
I’m so glad you found it helpful! Thanks for leaving a comment and letting me know. :)
I'm so glad you found the video helpful - thanks for your comment!
You answered so many of my questions thank you.
This is a very good and balanced review for all tankless water heaters. A couple of additional FYI's. The stated output (in gallons per minute) is a function of the output temperature of the water needed and the temperature of the incoming water. If you have a 8 gpm model and want 120 degree water out and your model has a 30 degrees rise, to make that happen then your incoming water needs to be 90 degrees. If you want to maintain the 120 degrees out and your incoming water temp drops below 90 degrees then your output flow must drop as well - sometimes dramatically depending on how cold the incoming water is. Each manufacture has a chart which shows the relationship between water flow out, and water temp out and in. Additionally, a tank water heater has been around a long time is a very simple device. A tankless water heater is much more complicated with a lot of sensors and electronics. If you have trouble with one you better have a technician who is well versed in it's operation and repair otherwise you are going to be without hot water for a while and you will be calling the tech support of the manufacturer for help. Finally, after an earthquake 20+ years ago I had hot water from our tank water heater when much of the electricity in our area was knocked out. My current tankless water heater will not operate without electricity.
Good information, thanks for sharing!
I'd have to say your review of the review was pretty good it's just too small things that don't really matter that much will one of them does though so tankless water heaters have been being used outside of the United States since the 50's so if you meant they have not been used that long in the state's you're absolutely right but they are not a new technology. And the other thing that was kind of important you are never ever ever ever ever going to get hot water the same temperature as it leaves the water heater at the furthest fixture in your house it's just not going to happen ever.
Just today contracted with a plumber to install a NPE-240A unit after going back and forth with the 240 and the 180 like yours. You comments make me glad I opted for the larger unit. Thank you.
Are you happy with the unit?
@aceofspades6667 No real issues. Only problem I had dealt with restarting it after I had to kill our gas supply for a few minutes. I was replumbing the gas line under our gas cooktop during some cabinet renovations. I turned off the gas supply at the meter. When I turned the gas back on, the water heater logic went apeshit. Error messages non-stop. Took 15 minutes of fumbling with the controls, acknowledging further error messages, etc, til it somehow started working again. With my old dumb water heater I'd just have had to relight the pilot. Could do that in my sleep.
So, it's worked fine since then. But it made me realize going efficient and high-tech has its downside, and I am now at the mercy of dozens of sensors, circuit boards, etc that could go south at any time.
Just watched most of the video
Few things come to mind
Inconsistent water temp (cold water sandwich) happens when demand is changed suddenly it will take the water heater a few moments to adjust - solution add a small tank on the hot side ( 2.5 -5 gal electric , you don’t have to plug it in)
It looks like you have a flex gas connector max btu on those is approx 160,000 btu
The red and blue handle valves should allow you to confirm max gpm ( service valve set )
I think some one else commented on the bucket test 5 gal bucket under a minute = 5gpm
just confirm the temp on the display
You have to confirm what gpm and temp you are getting , until that is done
Everyone just assuming it’s working at its top potential
You should be able to have 3 showers running all day long
Anyway when you get it serviced get the plumber to confirm temp, gpm, and gas pressure
The installers just installed the service loop in the attic. Building code requires a drain pan since it's in the attic. We just purchased a Navien 240a and are going to replace two 40 gallon hot water heaters in the attic. We have a 3,200 square foot single-story house. Since it's gas it requires two metal pipes going to the roof, one for intake the other for outflow of air. Since we had two hot water heaters we have two stacks going to the outside so no extra work for the installers. It's going to be a three-day job since the CPVC horizontal pipes are being replaced with Pex because of the freeze in Houston a couple of months ago. We don't have basements in Houston since the water table is too high.
Good job on this review! So helpful!
I'm so glad it was helpful to you. Thanks for letting me know!
Navien makes a great product…our NR-210 is 12 yrs old and works like new. I did replace the flow sensor once but it was a cheap easy 5 minute job, so now I keep an extra one on hand just in case.
Thanks for your video, we have same unit and it now giving a code and keeps shutting down and have ti reset it.
I didn’t realize it needs to be serviced, I will check out on flushing it out as you shared.
Very helpful, thanks so much!
We just installed the same unit a month or so ago and I share the same opinions as you, and all in all we're happy with it. 👍👍
Thanks for sharing - that's great to hear!
I agree with Khoi, I appreciate this review, as well as your assessment that you maybe should have considered a larger model. Navien makes a model (NPE-240 A/S) that can handle higher gallons per minute, which sounds like what you need.
instablaster
only few minutes in and i am so impressed with your composure. I don't know your situation but May God bless you. Ameen.
This is helpful information. I think I'll stick with a tank, because I like knowing that my ability to take a hot shower depends on only two utilities being available instead of three.
Thanks for sharing this video - very informative.
Alex Fraser - you’re so welcome! I’m glad you found it helpful. Thanks for taking the time to let me know!! It makes my day! Cheers!
Thank you, very good info. Really helped us.
I'm so glad you found it helpful. Thanks so much for taking the time to leave me a comment - it really makes my day!
very good info thanks
Living in southern CA, I think a tankless non-condensing heater, mounted outside, is probably most cost effective and easier to maintain. Our tank water heater is located on the east side of our house and it takes some running of water to get hot water in the two bathrooms in the west side of the house. Will probably need some more piping ,etc., to get hot water more quickly to the bathrooms.
Try a ChilliPepper pump at your farthest or most used fixtures. You simply press the wireless key-fob at your bed side or hardwire button in the bathroom. Pump forces cold water back down cold water line and when you hear pump stop (30-45 seconds) in most homes, you have hot water without wasting gallons of water. I’ve used two of these at our home in Burlingame for over 8 years with zero problems. Anyone can install the pump under your sink as long as you have an outlet there. Each pump is under $300 dollars and well worth it. I’m just a home owner and not paid for this option.
i am using 4 in my home ,,,,,,, one for every bath room ,,,,,,,,,, and they are working well for last 15 years ,,,,,,,,,
can you tell me one thing ,,,,,,, the one you have looks latest one ,,,,,,,,, does they set water temperature automatically ? i mean if we open half tap then may be temp will be high ,,,,, so in that case this unit cuts off burner to keep the water temp constant ? in my case they dont have this ability , low water flow mean high temp and high water flow means low temp ,,,,,,so i manually set temp on it,,,,,,,,,, and i use synthetic vinegar to descale it ,,,,,,, use tiny aquarium pump to circulate it for 20 min ,,,,,,,, and i tell you one more thing ,,,,,,, i have fit pressure booster pump with every water heater and one heater + pump is for one bath room only ,,,,,,,, in that case you might no need to flush the system ,,,,,, as high pressure will wipe away all the scale ,,,,,, and also keep using the water flow from it in summer as well ,,,,,,,,, just switch off the water heater and water will keep on passing throw it ,,,,, this will further clean away all the scale during summer usage ,,,,,,, i am doing this for last 10 years and just couple of times i descale it ,,,,,,
Best review I've seen. Market research for an upgrade to all models. Kind of like adding a turbocharger to your ride for an extra kick :) less fuel, less emissions, more power.
Best, honest, & thorough review I ever watched too. You are the best and kind to share all of this information. My water heater up in the attic (not sure why they do that in the Houston area when the house is two story house) needs to be replaced. I immediately think of tankless water heater. I am very glad that I watched your video and learned so much of the requirements needed to have it done. So, now is more than 2 years, do you still think it is worth it?
Khoi Nguyen - sorry for the slow reply. Yes, for us it was totally worth it. The only thing different I’d do is look further into the different sizes available. Many people have made the comment that if we went with a larger model, it would have helped the temperature fluctuations when multiple items were using the hot water at once. I’m still a little skeptical if it would help or not... but it’s worth looking into and comparing the cost. All in all, we love never having to worry about running out of hot water. It really is nice. We would do it again!
Thanks for the review. I learned a lot and I thought I was already pretty informed. I'm surprised you didn't see lower water use and or water savings.
Hi Joshua - thanks for the comment. I'm happy to hear the video was helpful. As I hinted in the video, we probably should see lower water usage and energy savings... but when you don't have to worry about running out of hot water, I think it's hard to not naturally take a little longer showers. Thanks again for taking the time to leave me a comment - it truly makes my day!
Nice review!
Your plumber probably should have wired it properly. Extension cords are not safe for permanent use.
Thanlks for putting up a great video and a catchy title to pull you in! Just been researching Tankless water heaters and happened to watch this to get some perspective of real world feedback. Needless to say it is very informative and the comments too add to information that a new buyer ought to be aware of. The plumber I picked has recommended I go with a non-condensing Navien model NPN-199U. I have yet to get a quote. The Navien condensing units appear to have better efficiency ratings - so am still torn on if I should consider them. The DIY flush is something I would have to consider. Would you mind posting info on the sump pump you used and the descaling solution you used?
Hi Allan - thanks for the comment. Regarding the condensing vs. non-condensing, I actually didn't do much research on that (I'm sure I should have, so kudos to you for doing better research!) - so I'm not going to be any help on that matter. With our tankless system, it was a little annoying to have that extra device that catches and pumps the acidic water up to our washer drain... but it also didn't seem like a big deal. I'm sure your plumber would likely have a better answer to why you should choose one over the other.
The flush really isn't a big deal at all. I just put a reminder on my calendar to do it every 6 months (most people say each year, I was going above and beyond). The directions in the manual are great to follow as they tell you to also clean the small intake filter and exhaust filter too. I just used a combination of vinegar and warm water to flush the system. The company sells a cleaning solution, but they never quite say what is in it and it seemed silly to order special cleaning solution. I saw other videos who used vinegar and found that in my coffee maker the vinegar worked well for cleaning it - so I think it would clean the tankless system just as well. I never included what I used (ratios and such), because I don't know if what I was doing was best... so I didn't want to provide bad information. Regarding the sump pump - you don't need anything fancy. I just bought the cheapest pump that had a hose connection at the local hardware store. I don't remember the exact cost, but it was relatively cheap. You rarely use it, so I'd be shocked if the pump ever failed. And if it does, you'll be glad you can get another one at a cheap price.
I hope that this reply helps a little. I'm glad you found the video helpful... and sorry in advance for not being more helpful on this comment. Good luck!
Oh mine was installed 2006 and is still going strong. I have a rinnai
How often do you do the maintenance?
I really liked the pros, cons, and FYI thing you did here, and you presented it well.👍 . I do appliance repairs and installs (23 yrs) and I tell customers if they're not willing to become rather knowledgeable on how these work, and accept their idiosyncrasies, I will not install one. I don't like dissatisfied customers after the fact. Your installer could have explained capacity in much more detail and interviewed you further before selecting a particular model in my opinion.
Sounds like you really care for your customers and that you know your stuff! It would have been nice to have the installer better explain the capacity... but in the end, we are still pretty happy with it. Thanks for your comment, it means a lot, especially coming from someone as knowledgeable as yourself! Cheers!
The hot cold hot cold inconsistency is fully correctable by turning the water down 10 degrees. These units are nice especially for those without a cellar. Anyone without a basement knows that a leaking water tank destroys the house. These are a must for those without a basement
*frank* it's interesting because while watching this video, I also thought that I heard that these units are ideally set to 120 degrees, not 130. Great video regardless though.
I’m thinking lowering the set temp point from 130 to 115 or 120 degrees would give you more consistency and head room by lowering the delta range. We have our NTE 240A Navien set for 120 Degrees in Midwest winter +65 delta. Water is plenty hot for showers and bath simultaneously. We did run a recirculating line so we get point use hot water within 15 or 20 seconds at the farthest fixture
I'm jealous you have a recirculating line. Was it new construction or did you modify your existing plumbing to add the recirculating line? If you modified your existing plumbing, was it difficult? I think we'd save a considerable amount of water if we had a recirculating line that we could spin up prior to using our hot water.
Also, I'll have to try turning our Navien down to 120 and see if it improves the consistency when more than one facet is being used. Of course, even if it doesn't improve it - for us it really hasn't been that big of a deal. Since it is just my wife and I, it is rare when multi use happens anyways. Perhaps I over-stated this point in the video... I get quite a few comments about it. But then again, for others, if you had a bigger family, I guess it probably would be more of an issue.
We replaced a 75 gal tank. The plumber added the recirc line but we have an unfinished basement so it was easy to access the main floor kitchen and baths. We have a second story bath that takes a little longer to get hot but not more than 30 or 40 seconds. Main floor is hot within 15 seconds. We are empty nesters so it just the two of us and our pets too. We have guests fairly often so there may be 6 or 7 people using water at those times. We also added a pre filter and hybrid water softener to combat hard water and remove chlorine and pesticides etc. The pre filter takes out any sentiments and iron before it gets to the softener.
Sediments lol
@@fedguy9182 Ha! I'm glad I'm not the only one that has typing errors! Thanks for the feedback, that is interesting. We may have to consider adding a recirculating line someday. Sounds like you're getting your monies worth out of it!
Well with a crawlspace you might be right. The main thing to check is water quality
So today's date is Feb 18th 22, how is your navien holding up? We are having a house built and it's a navien tankless that the plumber is installing. I was watching videos about them and came across your video.
Sadly, I can no longer report on its status. We moved in 2020, so all I can say is that it was working flawlessly when we left. Congrats on your Navien, I bet you'll love it. We really liked it.
great informative video 👍 I have the same heater and it takes forever to get hot water. I really don’t like wasting so much water. What do you put temperature on. I do have a soft water tank. thanks
When we first got the unit, I set the temperature to 130 degrees. Then in the summer, I lowered it to 120 degrees (thinking that we wouldn't need as hot of water when it is already hot outside). However, I found that 120 degrees seemed to be hot enough regardless the time of year, so I never moved it back up.
am curious if the time to get hot water is the same or faster than a conventional tank heater? Also, from my research into the Navien models this model has a recirculating pump and an added buffer tank to make the "cold water sandwich" no longer a problem. So what is the truth on why it takes forever...
@@alland6489 The time it takes the water to leave your heater and make it to your facet is pretty similar regardless if you have a conventional tank or tankless system. The tankless system likely takes just a moment longer since it likely isn't up to the right temperature instantly (although it does it remarkably fast).
I looked a little into the recirculating feature, and I believe for it to eliminate the "travel time" to get the warm water to the facet, you'd need to change the plumbing in your home so that you can circulate water within the pipes without turning on a facet. I actually have a friend that recently built a new house and they have a conventional hot water system that has a small pump that runs constantly, circulating the water throughout the pipes in the home. So they get hot water instantly at any facet (but also pay to heat that water all the time and run a pump all the time). With the tankless system, I believe the plumbing would be similar to their system, but instead of the system always circulating and heating, you press a button or use an app to turn on the recirculating heater... then you'd wait a few moments for it to circulate through the house. So, the wait time to get hot water would be the same, but you wouldn't have to waste any water as it heated up.
We moved into a brand new house. Has a tank less water heater. It's take 30 minutws to no hot water at all.. no hot water in our kitchen sink. Vendor says that it takes longer for the further sink or bathroom to get hot. Please advise. Thank you in advance
Something doesn't sound right in your situation. The bigger of a house you have, the further the faucets will be from the heater... and no matter if you have a tankless system or a traditional tank system, it does take time for the hot water to travel through the pipes to the facet. However, I'd call a plumber and get their recommendation. Maybe your tankless system is too small? Maybe something is working right with it? If you're lucky, maybe they can modify the system so that it can circulate the hot water in advance - so that you at least don't need to waste water as you wait for it to heat up. Heck, you could also add a small traditional tank to your systems so that you get the best of both worlds and always have hot water. There are lots of options, but I think having a plumber come out and look at your system is the best idea as they can first check to see if the unit you have is functioning properly and if it is the correct size for your home. Good luck!
Great review video.
One thing I do with my tankless is to set the temperature for the task at hand. I have 2 remote controls for it around the house. For showers, I set it to put out 100F and then just use hot water only. That way there's no adjusting the hot/cold to get it there and if someone flushes a toilet or other cold water use, there's zero effect on the hot water temperature. For dishwasher, I set it to 140F, laundry is between 110F (warm cycle) and 130F (hot cycle).
I think this is one of the greatest features of the unit and something a tank type heater can't do:
czcams.com/video/iKn0lpPNU10/video.html
However, if you do have multiple people using hot water for different things at the same time, that may not work.
do you have a posi temp shower valve? curious about the temp fluctuation while having a shower
No, we don't have a posi temp shower valve. For the most part, once you set the temperature, it remains steady for as long as you want. The only time you have fluctuations, is when there is another draw on the water system at the same time. It isn't horrible, but it is noticeable (at least with the model we have). It can get bad though, when you run the dishwasher, washer machine, take a shower - and someone is washing dishes - all at the same time. It just seems the on-demand heater tries its best to keep up, but can't react fast enough to the on/off requests. (Just to clarify, it works great for any of these activities individually... but not all at once.)
what about gas pipe sizing? what size pipe do you have running to your tankless water heater?
I remember being concerned about gas pipe size and pressure prior to getting ours installed. However, the installer assured me, that what we had was fine, and we haven't had any issues that I'm aware of. I'm sure every situation is different, so your situation may be different. We have a 3/4" line that Ts off and reduces down to a 1/2" line that runs to the tankless system one way and our furnace the other way. There is a Table in the Installation & Operation Manual that helps you identify if you'll have enough pressure... but that's way over my head. Just in case it helps, here's a link to Navien's documents (www.navieninc.com/products/npe-180a/downloads) and to the Installation Manual (See section 3.3)www.navieninc.com/downloads/npe-a-s-manuals-installation-manual-en. I hope this helps.
You need to up[grade your shower taps to pressure balancing. They are code now. Then you won't get the temp changes.
*buck4mt* Great video. Would you please consider making an update video, and giving us a status 3 1/2 years later? Thanks again.
Thanks for the review! Any video of the noise it makes?
Sorry, no, I didn't record the noise it makes... because I just know it would create more problems. It really isn't too loud at all. So, if I tried to record it, no matter what I did - I know it would give an inaccurate picture of the noise. The unit is in our crawl space, so recording it right by the unit really is unfair, since no one would likely be that close to the unit in a real-world scenario. Plus it is quiet in our crawl space, so my fear is that it might actually sound louder on video than it actually is in reality. And if I attempted to record the noise in our living space, I don't think my microphone would pick it up... and if it did - again, I doubt the video would give a realistic / accurate experience of it. All I can say is that, if you listen for it, you can certainly hear it. However, most of the time, with other noises (dishwasher, TV, people actively moving in the house, or even noises from outside), I typically don't notice it. It could be that I also notice it less now, because I've become more accustomed to it?? While it is loud enough to hear, it is still reasonably quiet. Many other items, like our furnace, washer & dryer, dishwasher, etc. are much louder and much more noticeable. In comparison to them, it is silent!
Sorry for the lengthy reply... sorry I'm not more helpful on this point.
@@buck4mt I have the same concern about the noise. My power vented tank unit makes noise that gets absorbed by the forced air ducts and I can hear the harmonic hum 2 floor above. I have heard other customers various brands complain about the tankless condensation fan noise that has me nervous. At this price point it is a big gamble and my best option seems like a direct vent tank. Zero noise. Surprisingly a good driect vent model runs $1800 just for the tank.
Thanks for the review. If you can share how much they charged you for installation?
It looks like you found the comment below (from a year ago) where "unended" asked about the cost. As you can see in that reply thread, I paid around $2,585 for my install and someone else shared that they paid $3,500 and another person had a quote for $3,800. But it seems that prices vary considerably both in the region you live and then they still fluctuate from plumber to plumber. Each project is going to be different too. To make the change in our house, it was an easy change. However, you may have a home where it is more difficult to make the change (there could be a lot of reason for this). In the end, I think you just need to shop around and get a few quotes. Good luck!
@@buck4mt Thank you so much very informative video
I generally prefer tank water heaters, but your location, under the house, seems like a perfect application. But, did you have to increase your gas piping size? Was the wood framing already there, or did you have to add that for the install? Anyway, you're a hero for going down there and flushing that mofo. Honestly, I would have just replaced the tank with a modern, more efficient model.
David G - I didn’t have to increase the gas piping size. There was a support wall under the house, so part of the wood framing was already there, but I did add a few more sticks of wood to it, so that we could mount the tankless system. I just flushed the system again a few weeks ago... I’ve been doing every 6 months and it is surprising how quickly that time goes by. I wouldn’t call myself a hero though, it’s actually pretty easy. Thanks for your comment!
We've installed these for the last 10 years and they're still going - trust us, they last!
That's great to hear! It's been 2 years now, so it is good to hear that it should have many, many years to go before we need to worry. Thanks for taking the time to add a comment. I appreciate it - and I'm sure other viewers will find it helpful too!
what brand
It's been over a year now so knowing what you do today would you buy this unit again or another model?
Hi Don - You might want to check out the comments a year ago from "Tommy TMT" and then "Chuck Hall's" response. We just recently sold our house with the tankless system... so I won't be able to give anymore updates on it (unless I go back and ask the new owners... who are super nice, so maybe that will be possible). Anyway, we were really happy with the unit we had. However, if I were starting back over, I probably would check the price of the 210A & 240A. If the price wasn't too much more, I probably would upgrade... just for piece of mind that it may help with the fluctuations when multiple units were demanding hot water all at the same time. But again, since my situation was only my wife and I... the 180A unit worked just fine for the two of us. I hope that helps a little.
@@buck4mt just curious if in hindsight you would consider the non-condensing units from Navien? It would eliminate having to deal with the acidic condensate from the built in recirculating pump.
@@alland6489 The acidic condensate is from the secondary heat exchanger, not the circulation pump.
I like to keep mine at 140. Where I get the inconsistency problem i put it to 130 and its fine. I have NEVER donr maintenance on mine but here in maine the water is extremely soft.. As it ages you will have the inconsistency problem without your wife running any other faucet. This is where you need to reduce 10 degrees
Hey man, just wondering, where do you guys live? What’s your inlet temperature? I just put in an NPE-240A and it’s just my wife and I also, but our inlet temperature is 37°F so I knew we needed a little more power so I decided to be safe and purchase the NPE-210A, but after I ordered they called to tell me that they were actually back ordered on the 210A so they just upgraded me to a 240A for free… anyway, our temperature is super consistent when I’m in the shower and my wife is feeling ambitious:). If your inlet temp is too low you may just not have quite enough power as is required to run multiple fixtures turning on and off at once. Nice video btw, very well made :)
Tommy TMT - Good question. We live in Montana, but since we are on city water, I think it is much warmer than if we were pulling from a well. I’ve never tested our tap temperature before, but today (Middle of March), it was 43 degrees. You’ll have to let me know if the NPE-240A works better with quick changes in water flow. I’m curious if it will make a big difference or not? Ours seems to provide plenty of heat, if just can’t react instantly, but really it is pretty good. I also wonder if the water pressure is part of the factor for us?
Thanks for the comment! Good luck with your tankless system- I hope you love it!
Your 240A unit is rated at 11.2 gpm with a 30 degree rise and it is rated at 4.9 gpm at an 80 degree rise. Therefore if you want 120 degree water out and your incoming water is 40 degrees (120-40 = 80 degree rise) you will only be able to get 4.9 gpm. The unit in the video is a 180A model which is rated at 8.4 gpm with a 30 degree rise. If it is cold where he lives (I see snow) and he wants 120 degree water out and the incoming water is 40 degrees (80 degree rise) then his flow at that rate would drop to 3.7 gpm. (each manufacturer has flow rate charts for their units) If you have 37 degree water very often you made the correct choice of going with the 240A model.
Great explanation. Hopefully others will see your comment and it will help them select the right size of unit. I wouldn’t have realized that ours was under-powered, since it seems to get plenty hot, but this would help explain the fluctuations when we have multiple demands for hot water all at the same time. Thanks again for the explanation - great info!
These max GPM ratings also presume that the BTUs aren't restricted by insufficient gas flow. Tankless water heaters require a much higher flow of gas than tanked water heaters. I've read the poster's gas line is 3/4 inch shared with the furnace which is then tee'd and reduced down to 1/2 inch. I know for the the 240A model this scenario would result in less gas flow than required for the 199,000 BTU max. So it's possible that there is sufficient gas for the OP in most scenarios, but not quite enough under heavy demand resulting in water temp fluctuations..
@@jimmyrebel2010 - I kinda doubt that, if when his unit is firing at a high rate and there isn’t sufficient gas pressure the unit would flash an error code indicating that, and he would be able to see it. These units have the longest 1/2” gas line capability on the market.
I'm at a loss why you're experiencing hot/cold water (180 btu unit?). A licensed contractor or plumber is supposed to know what size tankless to recommend with several factors taken into consideration when switching from tanked to tankless. Concerned about not having knowledge of tankless technology, I dived deep into learning about it and the idiosyncrasies of periodic maintenance whether paying for service or diy. The flow sensor may be one of the most important sensors to detect the lowest water flow to turn on heating, next to setting hot water temperature. Once it detects minimum flow rates, heating ramps up immediately to meet on demand hot water needs and either continues on high settings from full flow or modulates heating as flow varies while maintaining set temperatures. You may want to review the flow rate of your unit and determine shower, faucet, washer, etc, flow rates to determine when hot water is made and when the heater stops. Low hot water flow may not trigger the heater to fire up and is part of design. Perhaps your temperature settings are too low and need to be increased to deal with occasional high flow rates while not increasing gas usage too much. BTW, the 'turbo' noise is the blower unit pulling in fresh air and forcing it to mix with natural gas for the best air/fuel mixture possible. A design for efficient use of ng or propane. The higher heat from blower action and a dual heat exchanger (one for the main heating unit, the second for extracting exhaust heat) increases efficiency. The condensing of exhaust moisture extracts the last bit of latent heat to increase overall efficiency above 95%. The condensed exhaust water is acidic and treated with the neutralizer cartridge before pumping it into the drain.
I have the NPE-240S, and I don't experience varying temperatures. I do experience a lower flow for a few seconds when someone turns on hot water for another appliance. But it is minimum.
Great info. I am seriously thinking about getting one but you made some good observations. What stood out for me is that I am 55 and everything is about scaling down. Less work less things to deal with. So I have to decide which is better the bigger bulkier tank system that is like set it and for forget it or the space saving more efficient tankless system that gives me more chores to remember to do.
I flush mine once a year. I did go two years the first time. It was very easy. You will save on your gas bill, unless you start taking longer showers.
Not that I am proud to say this but I have been in my home 13 years the hot water heater came with the house and it never occurred to me to flush it until this video. And the fact my old galvanized pipes are coming to the end of their life span and starting to degrade and now my hot showers are not so hot. I have a little pipe work to do in the basement of This Old House. And yet I think the savings will not be of concern to me, I jack off money on so many frivolous gadgets that I can make up those couple dollars a month if I just stop eating out and shopping on Ebay and Amazon so much. At 55, even if I don't clean my hot water heater for another 15 years it might belong to my children.
So... it costs far more, you use more water, don’t save any energy, get less consistent temperature, requires more maintenance, extra equipment, and won’t work during a power outage. What’s to like? Sounds like a properly sized tank water heater is the way to go unless you have a special condition that makes a tankless necessary. Thanks for sharing. Very informative.
Yep... it certainly isn’t for everyone. Never worrying about running out of hot water is really nice to us. We also hope to travel more in the future, so I like the idea of not heating water unnecessarily for longer periods of time. But to be honest, there really isn’t a big noticeable difference between a tankless system and a traditional water tank, when you are using it. So, if you are happy with the tank system and if it is inexpensive to replace - that probably is a good choice.
@@buck4mt Yes, it comes down to your personal preferences and circumstances. I considered a tankless 9 years ago as well as very recently, and the economic argument for tankless is even weaker today because tank water heaters have gotten more efficient while there's really been no apparent development in tankless technology. Regarding going on vacation, if you have a tank water heater, you can either turn the temperature way down or simply turn if off. But you want to drain your tank if you do to prevent bacteria. Another trick it to add a thermostatic expansion valve which will let you run the temperature in the tank higher while regulating the temperature of the supply water to a safe level. This will effectively increase your hot water supply.
That should be thermostatic MIXING valve, not expansion valve.
I've been in the business since 1999 and I have never seen one. The only tankless system I know of is a tankless coil inside the boiler. But oil heat is prevalent where I live. I think an oil fired water heater is the best bet. It heats the water from a cold start in about 10 minutes. 3X faster than gas and 5X faster than electric.
Thanks for info. I think I’m going to set it to 130...can’t stand to waste water.
Mind saying what you paid for everything, including install?
We bought the unit through the plumber, so I don't have a breakdown on the cost, but we paid total: $2,585 for everything. As I mentioned in the video, that was lower than what a different plumber quoted us for simply replacing our previous hot water tank with a similar style - so I feel like the plumber we went with gave us a screaming deal on the installation. I hope that helps.
@@buck4mt We probably need to get the 240 version. The plumber quoted us 3800 to switch to tankless. Vs 2000 to replace our current tankless system.
@@buck4mt I paid $3500, but I had some gas pipe upgrades also.
@@guest00101 Damn mine quoted me $7200 for a tankless Oil burner - where do you get these quotes and I live in a tiny 1250 sq ft house. The boiler itself I checked is $3000 so 4000 for installation is that too much?
@@superalexandre8450 I'm not familiar with the oil tankless systems. Our system was natural gas. Perhaps oil systems are more costly to set up?? I'd certainly ask more questions to see if you have other options and I'd also recommend getting more quotes from other plumbers too. The costs certainly vary considerably, so there's no way to know if you're paying too much or not without getting more quotes. Sorry I'm not more help.
The biggest problem with these units is not following the manual when installing. Venting is a key issue, I see you have about a foot of 3” PVC coming straight off the top (good practice), don’t have elbows on elbows (again good) and terminate with a factory vent/intake assembly. Flushing is important, good you pointed that out. It should give years of reliable service with continued proper maintenance.
i wonder if you have a recirculation pump installed?
We do not have a recirculating pump installed. Thanks for the question!
I did not get the recirculation pump. The only benefit is that it provides for quicker hot water, but uses more energy because you heat unused water.
@@WilliamArringtonFamilyman If someone decides on a circulation system its important that it is installed with a buffer and a way to set a timer for only when the hot water demand is needed
FYI - It's my understanding that you can add a "Hot Button", to remotely activate the re-circulation pump. This is energy saving because the pump only runs after you have pressed the button. So if you were going to take a shower, you'd press the button when you entered the bathroom and by the time you had gotten undressed and in the shower, the water in the pipe would be warm and the pump would be back off.
I thought the NPE A models have built in circulation pumps and what they call Navicirc which is a valve that is installed underneath furthest fixture.
recently needed service in a major metro city - no one can work on these - run Forrest Run!!! 2 weeks with cold showers!
Yikes! Luckily we didn't have any issues with ours. I'm guessing yours was out of warranty? After two weeks, did someone fix it? What was the problem? I'd love to know. Thanks in advance for sharing!
Lol maintenance is required for all water heaters. There is an anode rod in all the tanked water heaters that should be replaced and you're also supposed to flush the tank every 1-2 years. All of these things are manufactured to break so you can get sold a new shiny model. Tankless is supposed to last longer if well maintained. Also, parts can be replaced, if a tank starts to rust you can't replace it without buying a new tank. Everyone's mileage will vary though we currently have a tank from 1998 and it still works fine, but thinking tankless might save some energy.
You are a great presenter but you are incorrect on a few issues. You would have a more consistent water temps if you plumber or yourself set the toggles correctly. Set 1 and 2 down and 3 through 10 or 12 up depending on your model. Trust me you will find a big difference. Hope that helps you. It is usually that the plumber doesn't fully understand the unit or missed the settings correctly.
Nope. The unit is undersize. See Chuck Hall's comment above from 5 months ago for the facts. I do mobile appliance repairs, installs, electrical, and plumbing, (23 years) so I have to educate on pros and cons all the time.
Suggestion: add temperature control shower fixtures with the new heater.These types of valves control the hot and cold mix to control the temperature of the water, and even out the inconsistencies due to the various flows in the house.
Thanks for the tip!
👍
If they didnt install service valves then you can not flush the heater
Are these loud?
They aren't completely silent, so they do make some noise. However, it probably depends where you install your unit. We put ours in our crawl space, so we really didn't hear it. (I mean, if it was completely quiet and we were just above it and trying to listen for it... then, yes we could hear it - but generally speaking they are pretty quiet and not noticeable, if you're not in the same room.)
More money, work, noise, and no cost savings on fuel. Power goes out no hot water. Can't wait to get one.
Ha! I loved your response. It was funny, but true too. My goal was to be honest and let you draw your own conclusion, so I hope you found the video helpful.
If you're serious about power outages then you already considered emergency power like a portable generator or fixed one to run automatically using natural gas (or propane if ng isn't piped in). Living in the city, I don't worry about power outages but I also have a small 750 watt generator just in case of a major outage . Even a backup power supply used for computers can do in a pinch if power loss is temporary. Electricity is used in two stages; low power for electronics, higher power if an internal pump is used. A single domestic water heater may draw much less than 100 watts. While electric use is somewhat higher, I've noticed a dramatic decrease in natural gas costs to offset a little more electric use, a result of not maintaining a 40 gallon boiler with heating coil for domestic hot water. It was inefficient for more years than I want to admit as I knew 400F-600F exhaust heat was going up the flue instead of into heating water. On demand condensing heaters draw this exhaust heat to increase heating efficiency far better than old boilers running gas or oil. Exhaust heat from condensing boilers are about 105F. Capturing exhaust heat for boiling water increases efficiency well above 90% that translates to lower gas bills. No, I'm not a plumber or shilling for Navien. just another homeowner satisfied with switching to tankless over very old and inefficient boilers still claiming 80-85% efficiency. When I see major savings in lower gas bills, the initial investment will be recouped over time. As I understand it, Navien may be the only manufacturer to use stainless heat exchangers to deal with corrosion with copper. Plus a warranty of five years on electrical/electronic parts, ten or fifteen years on heat exchangers seems to be leading the tankless industry. Tankless is not well received in America but used all over the world so there's a history of tankless technology.
Convinced me to stay with a tank.
Glad I could help! (Or at least, I hope the video helped.) My goal was to give an honest review and not to sway people one way or the other. It is great to get your reaction. Thanks!
How many plumbers tried the Olde Earthquake Damage Prevention Upgrade Scam on you?
They warrantee only parts and labor is expensive. After 2 years i spent 700 on repairs!
Why aren't you specific about item purchase and installation costs? Is it a secret? What is the point of going through all this without all the facts. Thanks for your effort but you left out the single most important consideration in the whole project.
Hi Herb - sorry, yes... I was intentionally not specific on the costs, because I've seen that the costs can vary drastically depending upon where you live, and the construction needs you might have. However, if you look at the comment section, you'll see that "unended" asked me how much I paid and I did respond that I paid a total of $2,585 for everything. Another person chimed in on that chat too, and said they paid $3,500. But again, costs change over time, both for the unit and for installation and any changes you need during installation... so I'm not sure if that is helpful or not? Thanks for watching and leaving a comment. I'm sorry you felt I left out the most important part.
So, endless hot water maybe.
OMG. Get electrician. Extention cord?
Yes, it's a herd mentality nowadays to go to this garbage, called tankless. I've suffered with my Noritz like a fool 10 years, wasted ridiculous amount of do$. stayed washing with buckets on days several times, sitting out plumbers and HVAC guys, bills were coming a life time would be for the tank. The thing was keeping breaking all the freaking time, that I became sick and tired. Now I asked a good plumber to cut the monster off and went back to good old tank 50 gal, and happy. Don't run to the cliff with this hype.
That is the wrong pump for that task you are not doing anything using that pump it moves water way to fast and it is doing nothing buy the kit it comes with all the right stuff to do that with. But as of now you have done exactly zero flushing of that the waters just moving way too fast I'm much smaller pump that goes much slower.
you bought the wrong heater, you should have bought a Rinnai.
Well, ok... maybe?? It's funny that you say that because I originally planned to get a Rinnai, but the installer recommended Navien and so I went with his recommendation. So far so good. I'm curious why you believe a Rinnai would have been better?
@@buck4mt I have worked on many Navien hot box units. They have plastic check valves that fail in a years time and The Factory would not warranty them
buck4mt I am a licensed master plumber near Houston, Texas. I have experience with both Rinnai and Navien. Personally, I hate Rinnai. They make a good product, but their system is EXTREMELY complicated when the heat exchanger needs to be replaced. The first generation roof flashings for the non-condensing Rinnai water heaters actually began failing on the hot asphalt roofs down here, and the rain would cause damage to the tankless and surrounding area in the attic.
The first gen Navien Tankless had a lot of issues with a flow filter underneath the unit. I've attended a Navien certification course for repairing and replacing parts like the heat exchanger recently. MUCH more simple than the Rinnai. I plan on going Navien with my next house.
@@PeacefulKnight - That's really interesting, thanks for sharing your experience with both Rinnai and Navien and how they compare. I appreciate it!