America's Forgotten SMG: The Hyde/Marlin M2
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- čas přidán 3. 10. 2019
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The United States went into World War Two with the Thompsons submachine gun - a weapon far too heavy and too expensive for its role. The British went to the other extreme with the Sten and while the US did not want a gun quite that crude, the Sten did spur a desire for something cheaper than the Thompson. George Hyde (the working for the Inland Division of GM) had worked on submachine gun designs in the 1930s, and he put together a weapon that would fit US needs. It was much cheaper than the Thompson and weighed in a full 2 pounds lighter. At tests in the spring of 1942, it also proved to be much more accurate in automatic firing, as it had a much more ergonomic stock design than the Thompson. The weapons was approved as the M2 submachine gun in 1942, and a contract went to Marlin to produce it (Inland had no extra production capacity at the time).
The receiver of the M2 was made through a metal sintering process, and Marlin had trouble getting this properly tooled up. The first gun delivery didn’t actually happen. Until May or 1943, and by that time Hype had finished designing the M3 “Grease Gun”, which was cheaper still, and more attractive to the military. The contract for the M2 was cancelled in June of 1943, with only 400 guns delivered. There are only six known surviving examples today, split between private collections, museums, and military institutions.
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
6281 N. Oracle #36270
Tucson, AZ 85704
This thing looks like the lovechild of an M1 Thompson and and M1 Carbine.
The math seems to add up.
Both parents looking it adoringly.
was gonna say that
My thoughts as well.
Well it is from the same company that made the carbine. And a lot of the internals are a copy of the Thompson as it was originally intended to be a cheap replacement.
So yes, it quite literally is the love child of a M1 Carbine and an M1 Thompson
"weeeeee don't want a sten gun" - literally every country that laid its eyes on the sten gun
Except the Aussies (who thought that the STEN was much better then it actually was).
Why is that British man carrying a piece of trash into-ooooohh ingenious.
Daw, beat me to it. But yes.:P
My country specialised in producing weapons put together in Dave's shed over the weekend during WW2. See the PIAT for another example.
@@jackandersen1262 is that why the Owen was more popular?
Woah the wood grain on that baby is a BEAUT
Damn, I thought I was the only one that noticed that!
Way too pretty for a battle rifle.
First thing I thought as well ..... Feckin Lovely bit of wood ! If it were mine the Mrs would get peed off at me for keep telling her I got WOOD LOL
It looks like a Guitar.
Agree, it has a bronze ish two tone layer.
Cheeseburger SMG: "I'm not fat I just have a wide bolt."
Scary thing is its still lighter than a Thompson lol
derek leverknight, I always find it funny when somebody picks up a Thompson for the first time thinking it's light. And then add 50 or 100 rounds of .45 ACP. OOOPHHH.
@@paulshayter1113 i never thought of it as light perse but i didn't realize just how damn heavy they actually were lol
Don't you mean: "I'm not fat, I'm just big bolted."
That's a healthy bolt.
You can run but you can’t Hyde
pretty obvious that we'd forget the M2 Hyde considering the atrocities its inventor committed with his own pattern.
Oh rearry? *leaps into rice paddy and laughs in communist*
and you won't get away with it
Minor nitpick, sintering doesn't actually melt the material (which is one of its main advantages). For metal sintering you essentially take a mix of powdered metals in ratio of the alloy you want (making sure that the surface of your grains aren't corroded or contaminated), create oxygen-free atmospheric conditions with a protective atmosphere, stuff it in a form and then let it "bake" under tremendous pressure and heat. The temperature is still quite a bit below the melting point but you're essentially creating an environment in which the some of the metal atoms move along the walls of the crystalline structure and diffuse into the structure of a neighbouring grain, think of it like taking a bunch of snow, packing it under high pressure and warming it up just enough to create a very thin layer of liquid water on each crystal, then freezing it again, you'll essentially end up with a block of ice without ever actually having molten the snow (a glacier actually does this very thing). This is why sintering is heavily used when you're working with metals/alloys that have very high melting points like tungsten.
EDIT: See RadioFreedom's post down below for some minor corrections.
That was a very good description. I actually understood what you said and I'm far from being a metallurgist, or even very bright for that matter. Well done, sir.
Thank you for a very clear explanation. Realy informative.
Markus Fuchs, I have 3 degrees related to manufacturing and none of my teachers explained it that well.
Keep up the good work.
That's an impressive description. Plain simple english that everyone can understand. Well done!
Markus, That is a some hot damn tech writing there. People tend not to realize how difficult it is to explain something like this in plain, easy to understand, accessible terms. Best description of the process I've ever seen.
"Ummmm......look......your Sten gun is the epitome of ghetto, but we're not looking for that level of ghetto"
Lol
Warsaw SS: did somebody say ghetto?
The Grease Gun is pretty ghetto as well though. Soldiers used to the Thompson were reportedly rather reluctant to switch over to the M3, given the looks of it. The US Army even produced videos which stated that despite its looks, it was a good gun (which is true).
@@no1DdC I agree. It is a aesthetic downgrade to a Thompson. I thought they were junk the first time I saw one
@@meansartin Considering the M3 was designed to be a cheap, throwaway and get another one weapon? Of course they were junk! XD
This one was truly a "Forgotten Weapon"!
...Exactly: much better to "forget it"...comparede to the conteporary SMG made by Germans, and even Russians....as everybody knows.....
At least it wasn't a failure, more victim of the time. Both the need for more guns, quickly and produced more easily. As someone else says in the comments, would make a nice semi-auto replica.
There can be nothing better than replacing your own gun in service with a significantly better gun of your design
Seriously, I think a gun like this would sell quite well these days.
Dude, if someone could re-release this design marketed as a pistol caliber carbine, it'd sell like hot cakes I'd imagine.
Wow the wood grain on that gun is gorgeous.
M1 Thomson and M3 Grease gun
What about M2...
We don't talk about M2
Ok. I'd much rather talk about what happened between M60 and M240 machine guns.
@@deptusmechanikus7362 Inflation. ;)
hyde made the m3
The M1 was the M1 Carbine, not the M1 Thompson. The Thompson was named M1 by the company, not the military. The M2 was also an M2 Carbine, which was just a select fire M1 Carbine. Funny thing is the MAC10 was actually called the M5. They heard the military was about to adopt a new gun and they assumed they would call it the M4, so they called the MAC10 the M5. Nonetheless it was like 15 years later that the military used the name M4, and they never adopted the MAC10, but they should have.
Everyone gangster
Til the Thompson starts turning into a Ribeyrolles
this deserves more attention.
Happy Haunter this deserves more ammunition
Ethan Blevins ribeyrolles with a pistol grip and smaller magazine
Get more Reising vibes personally
@Stanley Jedrzejczyk The Ribeyrolles wasn't exactly a treat either. Just visually looks slightly more like the M2 imo
I believe Hyde had some patents under his pseudonym, "Jekyll".
This looks like something I drew as a kid
I found some of my Dad's school notebooks from 1943 or so. He had doodled a SMG on one page that looked just like the M2.
@@jeffreyroot7346 maybe it wasn't an accident?
@@OldDanTucker I agree, I think the M2 was used as a model SMG in at least one propaganda poster. He must have seen it and kept the image in mind.
Tbh the Thompson doesn't look much better
>Hyde
The madman! He can't keep getting away with this!
I feel like this is a breaking bad reference lol
They name are curse, Everyone one of Them are a danger to socity.
The 18 failures to hold open sounds more like a magazine failure.
A lot of guns don't even have a magazine hold open
Magazines only actuate the bolt hold open - and those magazines were a proven design already
T. Wallace
Not true for all firearms. Some rely on the magazine follower to hold the bolt open, like an AK-47 and Yugo magazines. This is a feature of the magazine of course. I'm sure there are other examples. The downside of which is, the bolt closes when the magazine is removed.
Longhaired Countryboy this is true in a relatively small percentage of firearms - however, in this particular example, and in my response to the op’s comment, my statement stands
>forward full auto, rearward is semi auto
>and you can tell easily enough with the click of diconecor reseting
Nice method, to check with ammo
Well, you don't have to check if the chamber is loaded, so as long as the magazine isn't in it won't fire.
Unless you put the mag in with the bolt already forward, then you could use that method to see what's what, or you could do it with the mag out with the bolt forward, either way.
The pleasing outline of this SMG is similar to an AR SMG: straight line stock, magazine close to pistol grip, high front site. Come to think of it, the short, fat bolt problem was overcome by Stoner''s large spring and counterweight in the stock!
@@justforever96 the ratio of length/width of the bolt has no bearing on the safe operation of a blowback system, only the weight.
That thing looks like it should have "Ape Shall Not Kill Ape" carved in the stock.
Lmao... Nice.
Life Imitating Death well played, sir .. well played
#over50
lol, perfect....
Exactly!
So that's who bought the contract! Hahahaha 👍
I actually like the look of this gun,..... comments would suggest I'm in a rather small minority.
you aren't alone ;)
I'm with you there.
I do too
Yeah, I always thought this gun was beautiful. Still do!
I would buy a replica In a heartbeat
Actually it looks like a slick little rifle. Kind of a shame it didnt go into full production.
Well it kinda did but it became obsolete after 6 weeks or so after.
metal sintering lead to metal injection molding which is today one of the most practical ways to make complex parts cheaply and is evolving into 3d printing and sintering. Interesting early thing going on there.
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine It would be nice to actually see a Norinco AR Clone. AR receivers are made from aluminum forgings. What are the Norinco's made from?
I have seen the semiautomatic version of this weapons in the mid-to-late 1960's. It was in a yearly printed book on what is available in a a given year.
Holy shit! He actually found a real deal M2
Nothing more Awesome than wood furniture on a sub machine gun. 👍😃
No wonder it stayed on target so well. Very straight alignment from barrel to butt stock heel (like AR). Thompson has HUGE drop at heel.
it's a shame some company like smith and wesson/ remington/ a good company with a responsible pricing doesn't actually start making these again in semi-auto cuz this would be quite a desirable gun for people to own that like guns to collect .. i would like to have one
And it would be cheaper than a mini 14
I wouldn't mind a semi auto M3 Grease Gun.
Any company BUT Springfield & I'd say yea, but they're not actually pro 2A like they claim.
@@RichardCranium321
Why not? They hate money or something?
@@robotbjorn4952 they funded some "control" groups a little while back. Idiot Armory.
I really like the aesthetics of this firearm. Like another comment pointed out, this gun looks like the love child of an M1 carbine and Thompson. The way it functions and disassembles is interesting. It's a shame the gun was not around longer, but it makes sense. The M3 submachinegun has certainly proved itself a reliable firearm and much easier to produce.
The in-line design of the stock is surprisingly similar to the original M16's silhouette.
3:45 Thank you for saying this! I have been wondering as of late why so many WW2 era sub guns have ridiculously long receivers with comparatively short barrels, but could not seem to find an answer anywhere.
And as a funny note. The M-3 had problems when it went into production with the stamped half warping when they were welded together. Thompson production was to end in 1943, the last Thompson can off the line in June 1945.
I think this gun would be good for the market in a semi auto configuration.
One Good Meme yeppers !
It’s basically a select fire Marlin Camp 45
This weapon has one of the most beautiful stocks I've seen!!!... I just love the way the colouring and the grain match!!!...
I really love this thing! It's like the Cadillac version of the Grease Gun xD They got a good sample also, the flame on the stock is absolutely beautiful!
So when a Thompson and a M1 carbine love each other very much...... the DoD get this a year later.
* DoW
The idea of a submachine gun-rifle hybrid has been on my mind a lot recently actually. Thanks for this
That would be the intermediate cartridges
You mean the Thompson prototype in .30 carbine that U.S. military/Army denied and never fired/tested (sadly)
Nobody:
The m2: *aight imma hyde*
The thing that amazes me about these videos is Ian's tremendous ability to communicate everything you could need to know about whatever firearm he's presenting.
I've seen a semi-auto build online of this, and the builder 3D printed the complex midsection.
I've noticed that most ww2 rifles have a " theme " the fore grip on most us rifles seem to share a similar look🤔
Just like how you can see the heredity of the SKS in the AK platform
@@vsk2377 I've always wondered is it a thing done for the soldiers or to save money and time? I mean I can see if you made all your weapons similar so a soldiers body and mind wouldn't have to make new muscle memory...if that makes sense . But I spose it could be a cost and manufacturer thing as well🤔
@@robsorgdrager8477 could be that, I think it's more of a case of manufacturers saying "we need a hand guard for this weapon, and cause we made millions of similar pieces, we dont need to reinvent the wheel each time we make a domestic weapon."
@@vsk2377 This. Ian has shown other guns that used certain parts because the manufacturer already had a stockpile/set up tooling. It's the same reason many designs will also use already widely available magazines instead of new ones. For example, the STEN gun uses MP40 mags.
Why change what's not broken? It works so there was no need to change it
9:05 That Bolt is truly a study in Maching Costs. That is, it was apparently decided that it would be better to machine the entire Bolt from one large cylinder of Steel; removing all that Metal, rather than making it from two pieces (cylinder & front "rod") joined together.
Never even heard of this weapon until today, pretty cool but sad that there are only a few left
Small addition about the 3D-Printing thing: it absolutely depends on what method you use. if you refer to metal sintering, today it's mostly done with a laser that melts metal particles layer by layer, with new layers "sprinkled" on top every time a layer is done. There's quite a few videos about it out there if you're curious.
Most get a second sintering step for the whole part after cleaning. It's not like fdm where it's ready once it comes out of the "printer".
This thing is freaking awesome!!! I wish this would have been put into production. 😔
This is the most American gun I've ever seen
@Kathleen Shaw I believe the M2 50cal would like a word with you
M1911: Am I a joke to you?
Henry Lever Action: Says who?!
Got Colt Walker?
MAN I love military SMG's that don't get enough love! This is beautiful ^_^
Now THIS is exactly what this channel is made for!!!
Honestly this is my favorite SMG error! I may or may not know somebody who may have or may not have replicated one of these in his grandfather's machine shop. Let's just say I fell in love all over again! This gun is by far more usable than an M3 or Thompson ever thought of being. Too bad they didn't make more of them
Yes, Ian, thank you, I was wondering why I've never heard of an M2.
I like this thing, if by some miracle i ever get the chance to get my hands on one im taking it.
When a Thompson and a M1 Carbine love each other very much...
If a Thompson and an M1 Carbine had a bastard love child.
Itd be perfect😂
Exactly what I thought.
This weapon is a missed opportunity. Put a Bendix-Hyde Carbine gas system in it and chamber it in .30 Carbine cartridge or make a new cartridge for it by neck down a .351 WSL to load a .270 caliber bullet and give it a 30 round magazine. Give it an updated design too.
So an M1 and an M1? Makes sense, because M1+M1=M2.
A wonderful design, almost elegant in its simplicity. It really is a shame that they didn't just accept the added cost of forging the forward receiver section and get the gun into full-scale production. Perhaps more would survive today.
Neat to see one in the flesh. I’ve only seen one in a book I have from the late 70s
This got my attention. Hadn't watched an episode in a while. Beautiful condition and finish.
Love it when Ian says "It's got some interesting ... "
How gorgeous that m2 is, especially when Ian pulls out the grease gun. Edit- seems like the other comments disagree.
I think it looks good.
People have bad taste. They think ARs look good lol.
You finally did it. I've been waiting for this video for probably as long as I've known about this gun. Really wish they'd put it in BF5.
Maybe they will now that they know about it... :)
My first thought upon seeing Ian looming over this thing is that the wood seems really, really nice. That's a pretty stock for something that is, ostensibly, a military firearm.
It looks like a mutated SKS.
Possibly the milk man was part Russian
I thought something similar. I thought it had a Russian quality to it.
"Anything with a wooden stock looks like a SKS"
The big flat receiver cover on the SKS is what I thought of when I saw this rifle.
FairlyUnknown in that case, almost every gun from ww2 are SKS considering how popular wooden finishes on guns were back then.
That disassembly is awesome!
Great stuff as always, Ian
Thank you. Just thank you for covering this.
Looks like a german G43 and Thompson submachine gun had a fun morning after the club let out.
Finally someone else who thinks it also looks like a g43 a bit
I was searching for this video, and passed 3 other "forgotten weapons M2" videos before I found the submachine gun. Gotta love that naming system.
Ian you rock! Thanks for all this information! Hope you have a great day!
Yo! That freaking bolt man... When he pulled that out I literally gasped.. Lol
That girth
Absolute unit
Right? Shit is crazy..
If the enemy comes upon you during maintenance take firmly in your hand the bolt and have at him
@@Govanmauler Thereby ending him rightly, 1940s style.
You know at first this gun looks weird but after you explained it and it's more in detail in front of my eyes it's kind of one of those things where if this gun was adopted over the m3 grease gun then to be honest the grease gun would have been the odd-looking fellow the first time around. Cuz if you think about it they both look unique. I like how they instead of trying to put more metal on it put more wood on it. I have seen this before and a lot of different guns when you for instance take the wooden stock off of the mosin nagant and put the archangel kit on it, it has significantly more kick back and it also travels up a lot further with the shot instead of keep it on Target fairly easy. Wood is an amazing shock absorber.
Yeah that make sense
Very handsome looking gun. Borrows from the M-1 Carbine: side-mounted sling, similar front band, almost exact copy of front band retaining spring, oiler, and rear retaining plate. Add a good muzzle brake to meet the required 16" barrel, make it take a magazine that is fairly common, and sell it for $400 and modern copies would sell like hotcakes.
Hi Ian, love your channel. I'd love to see some content on bullets, calibers, pro/con and history sometime!
Did these 400 ever see any action, or did they put them in storage and forgot about them ?
No, they were never issued.
Forgotten Weapons That seems really dumb during wartime, but I guess it makes sense so you don’t have separate training / parts.
Think it wouldve been a good spec ops gun. I mean it uses standard ammo and mags
It wouldn't be wise for the govt to put it into service. Since production stopped there would not be a supply of replacement parts
My father used one in Okinawa in WW2 as a Seabee, until the stock broke. see above.
I love your auction highlights!
This gun looks like the Netflix adaptation of a Thompson...
Some things are better left forgotten.
I still enjoyed your video. It's always a joy learning about old firearms.
I think it looks very cool, much better than grease gun
Thank you , Ian .
He has a great point. Researching the M1 and the M3, I have in fact wondered was there ever an M2? Unfortunately, this is a gun that history doesn’t remember at all. A Forgotten Weapon. 👍👍
Look at that woodwork. Absolutely beautiful.
with the magazine out that thing reminds me of a High Point carbine
That bolt clocks in at least a three on the Chonk Chart.
I see one flaw - the alignment of the trigger group to the receiver is dependent on the wood stock. Exposure to the elements can easily warp the stock and cause sear engagement problems.
The "hook" on the back of the receiver, looks like those used on muzzleloaders for easy disassembly.
The U.S. government might not have needed this but, I'm pretty sure I do!
lost and confused Same here, even in a semi auto only format..
@@winkleried go away.
What an absolute beauty of a gun!
Same thing, I need one. Actually two. One to shoot, one to display, huge parts bin.
One user of the Hyde was the outlandish bank robber Willie Sutton.
Noteworthy because Thompson's and BARs (and modified 1911s, .351s, and less scrutinized 1927 Thompsons) were about the extent of selection for the outlaws of the early 20th century.
A few other exceptions were the Brady gang's theft and remil of a 1895 Marlin from a war memorial; the occasional appearance of a select fire broom handle, notably by the Egan's Rats, Purple Gang and Capone's American Boys. Artillery Lugers with stock and drum were favored by some of the highline pros like Harvey Bailey, but I've never come across proof these had been converted to ratatatat. More likely called subguns due to dimensions and capacity, not nessesarily being a Glock with a switch a century ago.
Looks great,and tested well.
Whether it be a semi auto version or even an air soft version: replicas of this would sell like hot cakes... probably
Really cool gun! Thanks for video!
Ian please shoulder more of these firearms. It would give us more of a feel for the ergonomics and size. .02$ Love you Ian!
I can totally see that thin wood at the base of the stock cracking and breaking, and then the whole damn gun just falls apart. Maybe not the best design ever...
Very cool, rare weapon that I've never even heard of before. Thank you.
There is this game called Enlisted on Xbox, and in the trailer, there is a close up shot of a soldier using one of these in combat.
Truly a forgotten weapon
Really neat gun, I noticed a lack of heat shields I would think the wood stock would get scorched pretty quickly.
A lot of pressure going through some fairly thin walled wood. Also, sintering is very different from additive welding. Sintering under heat and pressure allows particles to join by atomic diffusion, creating very large and chaotic intergranular zones. Modern additive is designed to completely weld the metal powder grains at a time, so you do go through full phase transition and recrystallization. It's why sintering is done under pressure, and additive is done under vacuum/argon backfill. You still have to HIP the resulting parts to reduce porosity regardless though.
This look likes an innovative and well made gun.
"Weeee don't want a sten gun buuuuut we want a sten gun."
thank you Ian
Beautiful weapon.
Awesome! Thank you
This would be an interesting firearm to have as a reproduction using modern design and manufacturing methods.