Can Tunnel-Up belay method Fail? Testing the Limits
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- čas přidán 16. 11. 2022
- How Risky or Not Risky is to Tunnel Brake Hand Up when you are taking Slack during Lead Belay?
I have seen many arguing about this, so decided to do these experiments... so many can argue even more :D
Massive thanks to my friends who helped to film this episode:
/ charliedanfarrow
/ meel.fay
/ tanyafarrow
/ _anabergamaschi_
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Because that makes a big difference and is the main reason that allows me do this project!
Deep Thanks!
Ben - Sport
As a novice lead climber I think you are the best source on youtube for these things since you do proper deep dives into the practical details. You are also quite unique in the way that you have nuanced discussions about different methods rather than biased statements about right and wrong methods (well some things are just wrong..). So just keep doing what you are doing!
Ah that is great! I try to keep knowing that I don't know :D Sometimes hard... we all have EGO.
I entirely agree!
Love these video series. We get told all the time "don't do things this way because this might happen" and this stuff keeps getting repeated as fact but no one is willing to actually test it in a practical environment... until now..
My takeaway is that people need to practice catching falls with whatever technique they use and that they should always be paying attention ..
Actually, I’d love to see the test carried out with the hard fall arriving just as someone lets go with their dominant hand using PBUS.. A left handed awkward catch with the device dropping with fall could lead to a fumble? Possibly?
The thing is that with PBUS you never leave your dominant hand from brake end of the rope you just slide it up, so you would have two hands on the brake. Thus no hands to protect your self from hitting the wall...
With V to the Knee 1,2,3 method there you leave your dominant hand to move it above the left hand... that would def be funky to handle...
@@HardIsEasythat's why stance is also important.. our climbing club does yearly belay training with a tractor tire and if someone stands with their legs side by side thei're much more likely to hit the wall face first
Btw after seeing the rope (old, one) snap I wouldn't do that with a human (some core strands remained but The tire hitthe ground because of the elongation
Here in Germany they recommend the tunneling method, but they also recommend using assisted belaying devices instead of tubers.
Another top-notch video from HardIsEasy. Among other lessons here, this reinforces my idea that introducing newbies to belaying should include catching some actual falls (with backup, of course). Those who've simply had the correct technique shown to them are routinely shocked at the real thing when it happens.
That very thing is taught/shown in beginner courses in gyms at least. Highly recommended.
this is a very good point!!!
I myself have several years of belay experience, but as I made primarily easy multipitches I don't have such a big experience in catching falls...
Yep, exactly.
@@simboodamn And? Of course you use the tunnel method, because the hand is always on the break side of the rope and if something happens, your instinct closes your hand and tada, you hold the fall.
The other, older method, always switching hands is a fuzz. It takes MUCH more time, it is annoying, there are so many more moves, which mean the chances of something going wrong is bigger than with tunnel method.
I suppose you refer to the method of switching hands being the method, because the break side of the rope is (should!) always gripped firmly, 100% of the time and with tunnel methos, it is NOT. Fair enough and I get the point.
Anyway: much more "complicated", annoying, time consuming and because of many more "moves" and therefore more time stress, the total chances of some imperfection when executing is way higher than messing up something when using tunnel method.
Of course when using a tube and in situations where there may be less friction in the system, you have to be careful at all times.
Which is the natural state when belaying anyways! If it's not, that person should not be allowed to belay because your live lies in this persons hands and that is a no joke.
Ben, just wanted to say that I have never climbed and probably never will in my entire life but I've watched basically all of your videos just for the thorough enjoyment of your ability to explain such technical things and to tell yours and your mates climbing adventures and challenges with this humble and down to earth way of doing. I'm probably a weird and outlier "demographic" for your channel but here I am and just wanted to let you know!
Don't you give me that, get yourself out there and do it buddy.
Fat, thing, old, young, scared, bold doesn't matter I can 100% assure you on that.
I have people coming into my centre in wheelchairs, you can do it.
Stoked you've got a sponsor! We trust you to stay objective since you've done such a great job so far and you focus more on technique than equipment, partnering with brands should give you some awesome resources and I'm super stoked for the videos you'll make with them!
I'm really fascinated by the test where the rope pulled out of her hand - I really didn't expect that to happen. I'd guess the "tunnel" was super loose, maybe her thumb wasn't gripping her index finger? Then it wouldn't take too much force for the rope to squeeze out.
I used to be an ATC loyalist because "I won't let go of the rope" and "i can give a softer catch" but climbing with friends who force me to use their grigri has forced me to learn how to belay with it better. Now I find myself feeling safer when my belayer uses an assisted device 🤷♂
This was splendid video. Love it! All your content is super interesting and very educational. Every time some one is asking me were they can learn more about climbing, your chanel is one of the very first things I am recommending to them. So please keep up with the content and have a nice rest of the day(or maybe night idk :v). One again loved this video!
Super impressed with the nuance and scientific approach that you brought to this video! I didn’t realize the tunnel method existed prior to watching your videos, but feel that I’ve learned a lot about how climbing is done in other parts of the world.
Also like to add. Be very careful as a belayer to keep your hand clear of the belay device at the point where the rope goes through. I was dropped because my belayers hand was "sucked" into the device during a fall. Luckily for me I was only 6m up at a climbing gym with a very padded floor. They got a nasty welt /bruise on the skin between their index finger and thumb. I twisted my ankle. I considered myself lucky to get away pretty much uninjured. So keep hands at least 25cm below the tube device at all time.
Early on I caught a fall with my hand too close to the device. The skin between my thumb and pointer got caught in the device. I didn't let go or drop my climber, not because I'm an awesome belayer, but because my hand was jammed stuck in the device. It hurt. A lot.
@@ControlAltPete been there, and it hurts like hell.
Yes! Independantly of tunneling or other method:
1) Keep hand away from the device (2 palm widths) even when trying to take slack fast -- loosing control is more dangerous than slack in most scenarios!
2) Try keeping your belay hand level or even below the device while taking or giving slack. When loaded the device will flip up and automatically put you in a better braking position.
3) "Park" your brake hand way down, close to your body and with a straightend elbow. Try to return to that position as soon as possible after giving or taking slack.
Your videos are my favorite hands down, thank you for continuing to put out amazing content!
It was your Belay Master Class series that I started my intro to climbing about a year ago and I'm so glad I watched them first!
Can't wait to see you send that 8A!
Thanks Jon, lots of stuff to come and... you don't have to wait check this: czcams.com/video/WpJrx-z1qkw/video.html
Honestly, more or less all the methods you mentioned here and in the belay device video are super safe compared to how I learned to belay. An 11 year old kid belaying an adult dad, weighing almost 100kg (it should be noted that even then I weighed like an average adult girl :D). However, at that time in the Czech Republic tube devices were just starting to come on the market and the vast majority of people were still belaying via rappelling 8, including us. Which, let's be honest worked for years, at least here, but when I started climbing again as an adult I can't imagine belaying with something so crazy.
However, it does make me wonder. We spent 2 months climbing in Spain last year and compared to what I know from home (where the Ocún Ferry or Petzl Reverso is definitely the most widely used gear), most people use the GriGri. But I was shocked how many people use the GriGri as a fully automatic device and don't hold the dead end of the rope at all. Including older climbers, looking relatively experienced (I even saw a guy from a climbing shop in Granada belay like this), who were climbing much harder routes than I was. And what I see as the biggest carnage was that when climbing in Alfacar, a group of young people, obviously beginners, arrived and were being trained by an older climber who most of the time had no hand on the dead end of the rope at all.
For this reason, I believe that even belaying with gear that is not designed for that purpose at all (such as rappel 8) can be beneficial to a beginner, from the point of view that when using 8 or tubular gear you don't even think to let your hand off the rope because it is obvious to most people what would follow. Semi-automatics or automatics just don't belong in a beginners hand. That's my opinion.
I think the same, every climber should learn belaying on a tuber, because Devices can fail and the only thing that would then save the climber is the fact that the belayer is correctly using the device, holding the break Strand etc...
Fantastic video! Great work exploring the little details that make all the difference.
In my opinion the failures you recorded were not because the tunneling technique is bad. It was just poorly applied.
The first lady had a bad hand position. Her thumb was parallel with the rope instead perpendicular.
The last lady tried to take out slack in the middle of the fall. That is why she moved her hand up. When she finally grabbed the rope it slammed her hand into the device which caused her to drop the rope.
I belay with a Reverso and use the tunneling technique almost exclusively. I have caught fall with my hand only a few centimetres from the device and it never pinched or sucked my hand in. As long as your reaction is a firm pull down and back.
So to avoid the mistakes in the video you need to make sure your tunnel is closed. Thumb firmly on your your index.
Your reaction needs to be immediate and always the same. Firm pull down and back.
For experienced belayer that can anticipate the fall then you can start incorporate other skills. Soft catch, removing slack, hard catch, jumping down, etc
Could you please test what will happen when climber fall on moment when giving slack on thumb-like devices like bd Pilot or ederlid giga Jul?
Yes, please! I'd be interested in that, too. Also adding the Mammut Smart
Yes please! I use Singing Rock Rama and there isn't much content out there for that kind of devices, when you have to force "unlocked" position for giving out slack fast.
hi, I bought mega jul and tested exactly that, my experience is that the force of the fall immediately locked the device (put the thumb down) every time.
Yes please!
Jul-class devices will generally lock up provided that the brake rope is in any way hanging down, even if you are not holding on to the brake rope. Not that you would ever let go of the brake rope intentionally of course, but it's still impressive.
Excellent break down and analysis as always! You have a fantastic approach to testing and controlling for variables.
My wife and me haven't done nearly as much lead climbing as we've been wanting to so not as well practiced with lead belaying. There's just not much sport or trad around here. These videos really help highlight possible failure modes before we make them ourselves. It gives us the ability to practice on the ground and be aware of them when climbing.
All of your videos are so interesting !! Thank you a lot for sharing your knowledge and experiences.
Learning how to lead climb currently and I’m finding these videos very helpful. Thanks Ben!
I always watch your videos with great enthusiasm, because they are substantive, but I learn the most from them, the language is great to listen You :)
I have been taught to only use tunnel technique with assisted belays, and to always keep solid contact when using tubes. This video pretty much shows why. Its good to be safe.
BEST Climbing techniques and experiments Channel, in spite of negative feedback you could have from some people, your videos, knowledge and human quality are over all that and it must work as brushwood into your fireplace to continue growing up! Congratulations 👏 and thank you very much for all your energy!
Thanks for the video, always excited when a new one shows up.
Really love your informative videos with your "tests". Some well deserved props to the climber taking those falls.
I really like how you explain your concepts in your videos. You have excellent presentation.
Keep up the good work, excellent material, u know on a elaborate level what u do.
Thanks so much for making this video - i’m new to lead climbing/belaying and in my gym this tunneling method is encouraged, but i’ve had a lot of thoughts and worries about all the failure methods you address here. This video provided context, answers for my questions and tips for how to avoid these situations and I feel more confident and better equipped as a lead belayer.
Have you tried the hand-switch? It seems to be the safest and most efficient, while being easily reversible for on-demand slack when needed.
@@vesuviateresearches1504 PBUS? Yes that's how i learned to belay and thats how I always belay when I am top roping. It just feels a bit awkward to belay like that on lead imo
@@grammarhwk not PBUS, see 2:25 in the linked video below. After taking, grab the break strand near the atc, then original breakhand goes to load strand: czcams.com/video/5egJuxizA2k/video.html
I agree PBUS is not good for lead.
Great video Ben, keep up good work. Love it!
Your climber is a hero doing all those falls, good tips;
Another great one, your videos are the best climbing stuff you can find on YT.
Love these videos Ben. Keep going please!!!
I like You video and tips. This year I just started to climb. Thanks to Your course I understood how much weight can sustain elements like rope, harness, belay devices and others.
I like that this video shows that you can practice catching falls. Regardless of what method you choose it's valuable to figure out how you are likely to react to the shock of catching a whipper when new to the sport. Getting pulled up towards the wall takes getting used to for some people.
Also, how using a stopper knot or having a safety standing by can stop potential disaster. The scariest (and luckiest) moment in my climbing so far was teaching an ex how to belay. I took a fall and she completely let go. Somehow the combination of brand new ATC, newer rope and rope weight below her prevented me from careening to the deck. She was freaked out and despite me maintaining my composure and politely asking her to grab the rope - she yelled back at me instead. It wasn't until a friend climbing on a route beside us barked at her to grab the rope that she snapped out of her panic. He used his PA on the bolt in front of him and his belayer ran over to help.
Lessons were learned.
Another great video. Your insight is really spot on.
Thanks for these experiments. I just started lead recently, after just doing top rope for a long time, so these experiments with the catastrophic circumstances ease the nerves since I lack the experience.
Top video, interesting as always. Great work!
Excellent video, as always. A couple of things from when I learned this that seem not to get needed attention today with respect to non-assisted:
1) Brakking hand and non-braking hand need to be trained to react without the brain getting in the way. NB hand measures just enough slack that the climber isn't pulled. B hand is always below where the loaded device would sit and NB hand is always above. Keeping the hands in position and feeding (I think of it as "floating" or "whipping") the rope in both directions takes hours of practice.
2) Grabbing the rope is the last thing you do. Brake position is shoulder back, elbow extended, palm down, thumb in with the brake strand on the hip. This needs to be pure reflex based on NB hand input. You don't grab the rope so much as turn the friction all the way up. This is practiced with gloves and belaying a person on abseil preferably.
There is a reason gyms don't teach this. You get a lot of control over fall path, fall distance and hardness of catch all without the belayer flying through the air, but it takes a lot of time to get good at and unless you need to control those things, grigris work great in gyms and for a lot of routes outside.
Some gyms do; that's how I learned.
Extremely helpful! I struggled with the hand over hand instruction at my wall, I see how it is safer (especially with an ATC), but I was losing focus on the climber and my surroundings when I was racing to take in slack and keep both of my hands moving so quickly.
Yea hand over hand is awkward as all hell! I have to reach… between my damn knees with both hands like a goofball. 😅 So hard to keep up with the climber AND pay attention to their falls AND do hand over hand shenanigans at first
One could easily make a CZcams video showing how hand over hand is potentially unsafe because it's like braking with your left foot if your less used to breaking hand is supposed to catch the fall but instead you let go and try to grab with the other.
Your real world experiments are very informative, even for experienced belayers, and often reveal the specific weaknesses in devices, standard usage practices, and how a belay can be overcome during significantly more severe falls than are routinely dealt with.
A bit paradoxically, the more uncommon, but far more severe fall scenario, occurs in alpine settings, with long runouts on moderate terrain, where loose holds or debris or wet, slippery footing sees an unexpected fall - and more often, when more basic ATC style devices are being used for lightness and ease, yet where they may be overwhelmed in containing a massive impact. This video shows belayers being yanked off their feet into the wall; in alpine terrain, without a tight anchor, this could translate into being lifted and buffeted for many feet, in which time loss of control becomes a significant factor.
Another great video - we need more videos from you and more youtubers like you!
Fight fight fight, kiss kiss kiss.
Love this content. I learned on tubes and only very recently used a grigri. I can see how getting out of practice with a tube might lead to some bad habits, but if you’re using good technique with a grigri, you should still have all the right attributes in practice to catch an unexpected whipper on a tube
I wouldn't trust a long-term grigri user to belay with a tube
@@user-qn9ku2fl2b all the worst belaying i have seen is with a grigri
Oh wow...i am from Germany and learned the tunnel method and had right yesterday a discussion with a guy in California about it. I really prefer the tunnel method, especially for lead climbing, because I can give rope way more faster because my left hand is always ready to pull out some rope. thanks for the video! good job
Awesome videos. Just finished the belay masterclass series. Very informative thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. From Canada.
Thanks, new Belay Masterclass videos soon to come out ;) Greetings from Switzerland atm :)
One time, my friend was belaying with an ATC and got distracted at the precise moment that her climber fell. Her hand was loose around the brake end, so the rope slid through. Luckily the fall was stopped 2m above the ground, because her reaction was to grab the non-break end with both hands (lots of rope burn).
Moral of the story - human errors can occur, reactions under stress can vary. Thus, assisted locking belay devices are very good at reducing these risks.
Thank you for these informative and funny videos that help avoid scenarios like the one described here 😊 love your work
Great video! Thanks for this experiment and the final thoughts! ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
Love it beginning to end great video
I use this method a lot. I didn't fully know about it when I started using it but naturally went there. I do hold very tight (a lot of contact but still slipping upwards) when I move the hand up the rope.
I am also very aware to keep the belay hand close to my hip at all times/under behind the belay device. Additionally I normally hold the top hand out in front of me with a bit of slack on my side and a tiny bit of tension on the climbers end. The climber will not feel it because the friction in the system will absorb that tiny tension. This way I feel when they move upwards and need a bit more slack or as soon as they fall I also feel it in the rope and can catch the rope with my other hand before they even get to the catch point.
The incident where she dropped the rope in the video is also why I refrain from using any belay device that doesn't have automatic assistance like grigri. Many things can happen where you might drop the break hand from the rope. If you get pulled into the wall rapidly and sideways towards the right side you might instinctively drop that hand to protect yourself from the impact. It goes so fast you don't even know you do it.
So unless I must use a tube device. I don't.
Because this technique requires a loose grip, people relax instead of keeping a firm open hand. The better option in my opinion is to maintain positive control of the rope (hand-switch method) and you wont have to rely on the device. These are user failures and relying on a machanical device is masking poor technique.
Edit: to clarify, the method you described you use sounds perfectly safe, and does maintain control at all times.
Thumb up for the closure sentence of the video. Thank you Ben for your spirit
Hi we practice PBUS method in Denmark. And teach beginners with PBUS and ATC's device. And grigri as alternatives.s
I noticed in this video that they use their brake hand like they hold a grigri. (To far out) instead og below the brake.
When I see you do it (someone who normally use ATC's) the hand is below.
To me it's the position of the brake hand that minimises the slippages.
Thanks for keeping the open mind in your videos.
Exactly. What makes the device catch the rope is not how tight the hand grabs the rope but the angle between the rope that goes to the belayer from the device and the rope from the device to the belayer's hand. If the angle is small as when the ropes are parallel, the device will not catch, which is why we can pay rope.The greater the angle the sooner the device will catch. So the tunneling method works perfectly because what catches is the angle, not the grip.
Thank you for showing all this!
You are one of the best CZcams climbing channels man!!
One thing I always communicate with new climbing partners is that, when the person is actively climbing. You’re complete and undivided attention needs to be on them ALWAYS. Only when they are resting or sequencing the route can you look away or communicate with others.
There have been times where I looked down and saw my belayer having a conversation with someone. When that happens I ask to be lowered and have a private conversation and let them know not to do that.
Thank you for this. We recently had two leader deck outs from height at my local wall. Watching the cctv replay was both fascinating and perplexing; in the first case the climbers were neither very experienced nor used to each other. The leader tried to clip at 15 metres failed and reversed... the slack was not retaken. He tried again and the belayer stepped in to give more slack but lost sight of the climber who fell. The belayer rapidly paid out rope presumably thinking that the leader was moving upwards. The belayer only locked the fall as he heard the impact behind him. A young climber ambling by was very nearly hit.
The second deck out from 12 metres occurred when a young couple had agreed to practice “surprise” falls; she wasn’t looking upwards when he fell, although she locked, her hand was dragged into the belay device and she released her grip.
Both leaders suffered crushed vertebrae but recovered quickly. The floor is covered with 3 inch thick rubber crumb matting.
One thing that did strike me from the video was that the women may not have had the triceps strength to hold the lock position firmly...in the last fall the locking arm collapses, dragging her hand into the belay device.
Amazing video as always!
9:41 hand over tube, DANGER. Happened to my girl belaying me with Jul2 (autotuber) - fortunately she quickly pulled down - only 4m of additional fall. We investigated, and switched to Grigri, since the rope hand is angle indipendent (not letting go of the rope is enough).
Great video!
Very impressive example for what to avoid. The belay training should cover much more failing scenarios (with a back up, like the stopper knot in this example) and feedback from the trainer. From this experience, you definitely can learn why you should do things this or that way - and what to avoid. Guess I'd never forget this particular lesson, if I'd had the chance to practically see, experience and learn this specific failure scenario. Very helpful to have the slow motion! She did not realise correctly what caused the problem, because things happen so fast. Great video. Thanks!
Hi! Congratulations for the video and the study about belay devices... My apologies for my basic English. I like so much specially the quality of your explanation. I share with my students, I am a professor in Argentina and a high mountain guide. Thank you very much!
Super useful as usual!!! Thank you
Thanks for the quality video and also putting yourself and volunteers on the real sharp end :D
More videos!!! such great & valuable content! I'm to freakin scared to take those whippers!
Always great Content ❤️
Great video as always.
Thank you for what your doing. It is really helpful. ❤
That was amazing backdrop on that last bit!
Great video. Thanks for reminding me to be mind in the comments! Very thoughtful and well made content. Thanks
Thanks for your very interesting videos ! Living in France ans as a climbing instructor myself I was so far very much against the tunnel up technique (although I do it with my gri-gri)
The results or your that test are pretty reassuring as for focused and fairly experienced belayers catching falls when using proper tunnel up, but I think there's less chances that a beginner would catch a fall using that method compared to the other two. Again thank you and always interesed in your content
Excellent work.
This is the way I learned with a Sticht plate many years ago (still the best belay device imho). A lot of climbing gyms push a "safer" method. Look at 7:13 to see what can go horribly wrong if there were no dedicated brake hand. When you get pulled off your feet, you will instinctively reach out with one hand to brace.
She used her left hand though?
@@Pennwisedom Yep. Nine times out of ten it is the non-dominate hand that braces. And if you were using a hand over hand method it's a roll of the dice.
@@sapinva Sounds like a good reason to use an ABD.
awesome informations as always
Your Videos are just great! I love your style of explaining things :).
I would like to know if there are analytic test one can do with a rope to test its durability. I know that you can feel the core for irregularities and visually check the mantle for glazing or excessively abraded areas. A standardised test (e.g. with a checklist) that is as exact as possible and can be carried out by laypersons would be much better. Especially after climbing on sharp rock, I always have a bad feeling and find it difficult to assess how much it has damaged my rope.
I would also be interested to know how much dirt damages the rope or whether it only makes sense to wash a rope for aesthetic reasons. Since I only have one rope, I also use it for ice climbing. My 9.8 mm rope is not impregnated and always freezes and gets wet. Can the rope get mouldy (and break faster) if I don't get it perfectly dry? What is the best way to get it dry? Can the rope break more quickly if it is wet or frozen?
Thanks already :)
You are becoming my favorite climbing CZcams channel
I think you have made clear how important paying attention is when belaying. It seems if people are paying enough attention to the climber than even with quite poor technique they are going to catch them.
I'd love to see similar tests on semi automatic belay device like BD ATC Pilot, the one I use. Great content, chers! :)
Thanks. This is a great experiment.
Love it! As a beginer climber I used techniques where I would always have a firm hold on the break strand. As I learned and gained experience, at some point I graduated to using the tunnel technique because it was more efficient. I could remove rope out of the system quicker while belaying someone on top rope. And I can give slack faster when belaying someone on lead. Experience and prificiency is what makes the tunnel technique safe.
About the "when you see person falls you grab a rope instanstly" - people are easily distracted and I believe there is a decent chance belayer (despite one's experience) could miss the moment with their eyes.
That is true, but then again it doesnt have anything to do with the belay method. Not paying attention can lead to problems regardless of belay method or device
There is something to say that the climber can also yell falling. Distracted belaying is not good but, no communication from the climber is also not good. So even if the belayer is not paying attention yelling that you are about to fall or even a "watch me" is a good reminder to the belayer.
@@jonas-om3th pull-break-under-slide method is more bullet-proof just for such a case: belayer is distracted while their hand is sliding up and person drops - in case of break-under nothing bad could really happen. I do understand it's kinda an super edge-case, but doesn't mean it could not happen.
@@oleksii.malovanyi Climb enough decades, and every edge case will happen a dozen times.
Most belayers do not watch the climber😏
Amaizing video!
Hope everything is going okay Ben. Happy New Year for 2023!
Happy to you as well! And thanks! All great! working on a big video atm
No fight here, just to say love you and the experiments!
Love you too :)
No gear is perfect & I use the ATC as a backup. Say whatever you want, hands down, the GriGri is much safer! Yeah, a friend passed out with a heat stroke while belaying with an ATC! 😮
Having the hand closer to the body so it tilts the device is one of the most important elements i think. Having that friction means gripping is easier in every situation, the slow motion where the hands slip, the hand is always out in front further so it takes more effort to grip and stop the slip.
Great lesson!
Please, do the same test with semi-automatic belay devices like: Mammut Smart 2.0, Black Diamond Pilot, Edelrid Mega (or Giga) Jul, Singing Rock Rama.
In my country, on indor climbing walls, you have to use at least these type of belay devices. You can not use simple cup.
After knowing more about topic, and about how grigri fails, i came to a conclusion that this 4 pieces of gear are safer to use. If i am wrong, You are the only one who can show me that.
Testing with these devices will be much harder, as they tend to lock up during a fall even copletely without a hand on the brake rope most* of the time. So the first thing to test is if (and potentially when/how) they don't lock up by themselves. The Click Up would be easier to test, as it is more dependent on brake strand pull to lock up.
These devices only need a small pull on the brake strand to lock up and even the weak grab of a tunneling belayer trying to grab the rope will be sufficient. I believe that both active and passive assisted braking devices are super safe with tunneling.
*Most of the time is not enough. It is only a backup in case you mess up. Please keep you hand on the brake rope.
It is definatly a possible scenario. That being said with tunel technique in lead, you will "tunnel" mostly downward since you give mostly slack. In that scenario, sliding your hand tight with the brake rope is very easy and natural since your other hand holds the rope after you gave slack. It would be if you give too much that the action would be in reverse (like after giving a lot of slack for clipping) In that scenario though, you would be super attentive since the climber would ask for it. Great video, makes you think a lot!
The tunnel method is used in many countries for top rope belay as well. Not just lead
@@matthewmccurry1 Yes of course, but the dynamic are quite different. No big wippers nor excesive slack. That being said, I would agree that tunnel method is probably more problematic in top-rope. The break hand is sliding up to the device and risk pinching the hand (like in the video)
Hi Ben
Thank you so much for bringing informative and polished videos for all us outdoor climbing guys & gals!! We appreciate you!! Can I ask have you ever climbed in Sicily?
Hey Josh thank you so much for the support! Eeemmm Sicily - not yet... but I have it on my dream list :)
That last drop looked scary. I bet the climber's heart rate shot through the roof. Great video.
Really nice and interesting as usual :)
You can notice the only time it's failed it's seems that the belayer "push" the rope up like if she wanted to take back the loose instead of just grab the rope or even better, grab and push it down where the tube brakes it better.
It was more like grab on the rope that pulled the hand which hit the belay device and somehow she lost the control oof the rope
Thanks for sharing this experience 🙏🌹
Very well done.
Great video, Enjoy what you post. Curious what think about belay gloves and how they would help/hinder belaying. Thanks!
Very interesting ! Thanks
Another fantastic video. Beginners should ALWAYS learn to have one hand secure on the brake side at all times, which means switching hands as you've shown, including with assist devices. Tunneling should be considered an advanced technique, suitable for advanced climbers. If someone has any doubt about whether they are advanced enough, they are not. It's someone's life you are holding (or not holding) in your hands.
I disagree strongly. Switching hands makes the possibility of having moments of the rope without any contact much bigger. Tunneling is way safer. But has to be learned correctly.
Em switching you never have no contact. You have one or two hands on the rope but never none. So especially for beginners it is much safer
I have just started calling because I was afraid before and making the people I climb with fall. I think having controlled falla before the big ones is being key for me to become a better belayer 😊 As the video shows, experience is a degree.
I understand why many people get really angry when climbing safety is a question of life and death. Overall, I think you are very reasonable with the information in your videos, and I appreciate that you SAFELY test the limits of equipment and people so we can all learn and climb more safely!
great video especially pointing out the dangers of sloppy handling of the rope. You might have added that belay gloves on a tube-style device give an extra bit of protection on the brake hand, lessening the chances of the belayer letting go of the rope if their hand contacts the device. Also useful with a grigri and can keep gunk off your fingers either way.
Thanks, honestly I'm not super convinced if gloves are better or worse... Personally I have better grip without the gloves and I feel the rope better, but yea... I've been thinking of this recently... on one side it might prevent rope burns, on other side you loose grip and sensitivity.
Very good job Ben.
I always teach V-knee-1-2-3 for beginners
and still use it myself when on top rope.
For lead climbing I tend to tunnel but try to still use v-k-123 where I can because it is, intrinsically, safer.
I did notice a couple of your volunteers had quite a high hand when attempting to brake, which is something that I strongly discourage and noticed that you addressed at the end of your video.
Long story short: It's very hard to make an error provided that you maintain a small tunnel and keep your brake hand close to you and below your belay plate.
Excellent job, Ben. As always.
Training seems to be working, your shoulders look widers 😁
Haha, nah it's a magic of a telephoto lens :D but we'll see how far the training will go
In the north suisse and some south German regions there is a style that supposes : do never ever move your belaying hand ( in this video, the right hand) above a fictional horizontal line above the belay device.
instead of pulling upwards, you pull away from you in the front.
This way, the device always can tip and grip on the robe. It's Stange at first. But I like it. It totally avoids the possibility of both robes pointing upwards and no braking force will apply.
I know very well this is not the point of the video (I've seen it 😜) but it is the most concerning part. Now fight please 😉
Keeping the angle between the ingoing and outgoing rope above some minimum (mostly 60°) at all times is actually demanded by the manufacturers. It's not convention in some region, it's a fundamental requirement to guarantee safe use of the device.
In general I can only recommend to read the hogging manual.
The basic technique for tunneling safely and how to react to a fall is taught in every basic course (at least by professionals like in Germany the DAV).
Like ya videos, mate. Been here since the time you climbed with your girlfriend back then before you started building a van. Quality has been hugely improving since the beginning :)
All the best and keep going
Aaaah thank you so much nice to know that people are still watching since then!
can you make a video about what to do if you can't finish a sportclimb or multipitch route
When you are in Seon at Mammut, you should also visit their climbing gym in Lenzburg :)
totally! if you haven't been already. Adam Ondra was there as well a few weeks back :)
Great video as usual! Personally, I don't think it's a big deal. If practiced correctly, all belay methods (v123, PBUS, tunneling) can be pretty damn safe, and all have there relative advantages and disadvantages. In the UK v123 standard. It's is quick and fullproof if done right but I do notice a lot of people get sloppy with the hand-over-hand bit, and sometimes only hold the rope with 1 or two fingers as they're hand swapping! PBUS is pretty full proof, but in the real world, it's often quite slow and cumbersome. Tunneling is convenient and when using half ropes, tunneling the rope often allows you to control the slack much better than other methods, which could save your mate from decking!
The bigger thing is emphasizing safe belaying practices, keeping the break hand low, paying attention, and dynamic catches where appropriate.
What is v123? Google is not turning up a result
A belay technique I’m never thrilled to see is slip slap slide, unless that person happens to be belaying with a Munter hitch
@@somanayr It's also called hand over hand or v to the knee 123?
great Video!!
You got the answers to all my questions, so i dont have to get on my friends nerves any more