Automotive Repair Shops Are Losing Huge Profit on These Techs
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- čas přidán 7. 08. 2024
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if a car has been to multiple shops to get diagnosed and it hasn't yet you should have already told the customer its an open quote and 4 hours bills 4 hours. its not what you make this job, its about showing the customer who went to several places that your place is the one that gets it done right. they will come back and spend money, that's the profit. they go home and tell their friends they finally got their car on the road, and it was this shop that got it done for them. that word of mouth is invaluable.
exactly, oftentimes, the value is in the bigger picture. “this isn’t a conversation about flat rate” but the flat rate mentality can make you short sighted sometimes. There has to be balance. we understand your point FRM, but it’s not always about making the max on the car in the bay at the moment.
OPEN QUOTE LOL
Agree 💯
Nice theory but that ain't how things work in the real world. They'll go right back to giving the shit shops all their gravy work. If you ever see them again it'll be another dumpster fire. I've learned the hard way cutting folks a break on complex diags ain't gonna get you anything but more complex diags. If you're gonna take on that kind of work put the hammer to them. 2 hour minimum at at least 1.5x your normal hourly rate.
Shops are in business to MAKE MONEY. Why some give diag time away for free is ludicrous. If charging for your time puts some customers off, LET THEM WALK and suck money from the shop down the street. Good shops get paid. Bad shops leave money on the table trying to please "free lunch freeloading" customers.
Free loading customers lol 😅
Imagine if Doctors were flat rate lol. Why us as a blue collar worker gotta take the short end of everything.
Because they are mostly short-sighted and work against one another instead of coming together to promote better conditions. The market just takes advantage of it. It sucks but that's the reality.
My wife is having some issues that 6+ physicians don’t know what’s going on. I think she’s had $100k in testing and doctor visits done so far.
My daughter almost died due to some undiagnosed autoimmune issues. She was in the hospital for 180 days, on a vent for 4-1/2 months.
I kinda wish Doctors got paid for correct diagnosis.
I have gone back to a dermatologist and ENT and they ask me why I’m there…. I say “warranty work”
Medical malpractice is a big problem in America. Could go either way.
they wouldn't. imagine having to get into half a million in debt and give up 10 years of ur life to study the clerical (word) hell known as medicine. no one would do it if they screwed doctors the way they screw mechanics, basically society would be f*cked. now doctors get paid similarly to flat rate. a lot of doctors are private contractors (why most have insurance) and usually get paid a portion of the amount of the procedure that they perform. for example a surgery could cost 35k and the doctor would be paid anywhere from 5-10k for performing the surgery, some would go to the other doctors (actually most would probably go to the anesthesiologist). and then the majority of the money goes to the clinic or hospital.
They actually do get screwed over quite a bit but since the procedures are so expensive and the breadcrumbs they get in a month are more then the average yearly salary of a mechanic (38k) then honestly it docent matter much.
now to answer ur final question "why blue collar workers gotta take the short end of everything"
thats a simple answer. you simply agreed to work for these companies for the lowball price they asked for.
take a Midas shop for example (quick lube shop) the average Midas shop has a gross revenue 500k-1million$ average per year.(money that comes in before expenses are counted).
yes thats just gross revenue. I would say the shop mabey gets to keep about half after all expenses and employees are paid. if the shop makes at least 600k and keeps half (300k) why can't each mechanic make at least 40k (those shops are small and depending on the size it can be run with 3-4 (120-160k per year). u still got 140k for yourself as an owner. however I get it u start ur own business and u want to become financially wealthy cause thats the American dream so yeah lets pay techs 20k a year instead. whatever if ur in a quick lube that docent bother me that much. its kinda expected that ur gonna get paid shit.
but the dealerships..... bro the dealerships!!! the average RO I used to bill was between 400 and 2000$. it wouldn't surprise me if a dealership racks in 15 million$ or more per year in revenue if they only kept half of that after expenses( 7.5 million) why are techs getting paid miserable wages there? a dealership has between 9-14 techs working depending on the size of the dealership. if you give each tech 100k per year thats between 900k-1.4 million per year on techs (the one employee dealerships simply can't live without cause they would be out of business fast.
if u got 7.5 million after u paid off the expenses, salesmen, secretaries, porters shop Forman and managers there's no reason u can't allocate 1.4 million to pay the most important people in the shop. u would still be left over with 6.1 million per year.
unfortunately the grim reality is the useless managers in white shirts who do nothing but suck six figure funds from the dealership are somehow considered more important. service advisors with 0 certifications are also considered more important (paid more) and u (the mechanic) just continues to to accept shit wages and spend money on tools. if ur working at a dealership and ur not a lube tech and getting paid less than 60k a year ur a part of the problem. don't work for those wages
well I think finally the techs wised up and now they will either pay or go bank rupt.
Thats what Unions are for.
the “diag” guy makes the shop money by freeing up the “parts hanger” guys to bang out the hours. You can choose to be a parts hanger only shop if you want, or you can work out a way to do both…
The last shop I worked at, would wave the diag if the customer approved the repair. I don't understand that logic
complete stupidity of the management.... basically conditioning customers that they never need to pay for diagnostic charges
Well said on every point. The shop I work at wants to under cut the competition by doing "evaluations" on everything and only pay me .3 or .25 for everything. I told them no more if everything else comes in without being wrote up for a 1 hour diag don't even talk to me about it why should I work on a car for 30 minutes to an hours for only 15 minutes worth on pay.
Oh hell nah, we know what those wheels on tool carts are for...
@@I_Died_2_Weeks_Ago I'v been trying for months to get into another shop. I have alot going against me but I will be able to get to a better place sooner or later. Hopefully sooner rather than later
You should only work on it for time paid.
@@crasher88 Remember we are the catch they need us
The first hour covers plugging in the scanner and research in the wiring diagram, after 45 minutes, tell the service you need more time.
I am a shop owner and really appreciate the content. Very good points made about the diag work. The technician is providing tremendous value to the customer and they should be paying for this work.
This is why I quit this industry
Didn’t want 2 but need to take care of my family
100% correct. Not charging for the portion of the repair that requires skill, is a big loss leader. As is low balling jobs because you were afraid the customer might decline the repair otherwise. Do it right and let the chips fall where they will.
Too often the shop doesn’t want to charge, doesn’t want to pay the tech and will still hold you to a correct diagnosis.
When I close on an hour, I stop and let them know it will take more time.
I live in Germany here they have a different system, there are no superstars and the contracts are taken in a row doesn't matter what kind of a job we do in the same day you do a diagnostic, take the transmission appart, a new windshield or a couple of tires so the shop can earn money and we also
The loss of parts revenue during labor intensive operations requires application of a diagnostic recovery factor based on the relationship between parts and labor sales. This information is readily available in the shops P&L and the correct factor determined.
Yeah this is a serious problem. I think a lot of the problem is that nearly every tough-to-diagnose problem sounds really simple once it is found, and it's tough I explain to the customer why you have to charge so much to fix a problem that sounds so simple.
Customers' expectations are part of the problem as well. Customers who expect free diagnosis really get on my nerves. I blame scammy marketing to sell code readers to DIYers perpetuating the myth that modern auto techs just plug in their computer and it tells them which part to change. I've heard this myth repeated so many times from so many different places.
Does not help when the customers can not communicate the problem . I was looking at a intermittent stall hard restart. Everything checked out when we had the car. Only when one day the car was towed in did we get details
Car only does it when the 350lb brother was in the car and they hit bumps.
What we ended up finding was when he sat in the car he was putting enough pressure to make contact with the harness under the seat.
We confirmed this by having him sit in the car while it was running and sure enough , sputter sputter stall.
Je laughed and said, thats funny now that I think about it it always seemed to start when I got out.
Of course since we did not find any issues when it was in the shop we stopped because customer “did not have any money”
I had another one, laddy kept saying here lights did not work . A few checks and everything looked fine. Not until the husband came in and said , “every time marrio here puts the peddle down the lights go off and there is a clunk”. Good detail left out.
Late 90s Taurus. Rear sub frame mounts where shot and was separating from the body on acceleration . The block/frame to body ground cable was rotted off and the only ground it had was through the sub frame making contact .
New mounts , new ground strap. All is good.
@@Mac-mu9cs Wow, those are some incredible examples. I agree that lack of disclosure is another common issue too. Maybe almost half the time it seems like the customer should have been able to tell you some important details that got left out of the story. I am sure a lot of the time its just because they honestly didn't notice or know that something would be helpful to know, but I'm also sure that a lot of the time they're just too embarrassed to admit what they did.
Marco, I worked in a ford dealership in the early 90s,, my old boss the dealership owner would alway get frustrated with complicated diagnosis,, he was always saying why can't they build a diagnostic tool that would definitely point out what part to replace, plug it in to the diagnostic port and would tell you replace that part,,,, he time consuming diagnostic procedures
@@dougdier3104 Haha. Yeah, from what I've heard early '90s cars can be some of the toughest to diagnose. You had electronic fuel injection but you often didn't have OBDII to see what it was trying to do.
I would use a magic diag machine if it existed, but solving tough mysteries is really one of my favorite parts of my job.
I still get this kind of misinterpretation from mechanics. They tell me that because I have a nice scanner; it will tell me what exactly is wrong with the car. They have similar scanners but they somehow think that mine is special and will tell me what's wrong with the car so they call me when they can't figure out what's wrong with the car after firing the parts cannon. Customers are even worse lol
According to our service advisor, we are lucky that we get half an hour for diagnosing cars, that man is always given every one a break on any repairs
Time for a new place to work
I have 48 years in the job. BMW flat rate Master. On warranty jobs I get paid properly. If it’s a retail customer they cut my hours. It’s always been that way. It’s stupid if I go tho the dentist he charges for his skills. I can live with that he earn it. Why do we sell ourselves short? It boils my piss. I think they are scared of giving a bill to a retail customer. It’s easy under warranty.
most people who drive BMWs probably can't afford to... let alone pay for mechanical repairs on top of owning the car
@@edwardboers2269 BMW customers are a different kind of stupid😂
Interesting thing is when I get those cars that has been to other shops we charge a minimum of 4 hours to start. If it’s a communication issue I tell customer right up front it can be $1K plus. Just to weed out the customers who aren’t willing to pay.
And that's why dealer techs hit the hotline like crazy.
The Dealership Hotline in Honda was a joke. They go through the same diagnostic steps that are outlined in the service manual, like a robot. Really rarely ever anything that is straight to the point.
Is that the dealers version of Identifix? Figure dealers have it a bit easier when it comes to diag. All the equipment/information/
Access to known good parts… right there for you. Now how they pay is a different story.
I seen a bill from toyota for a diag. For lean
Started with fuel pressure test .6 hr
@@dayanordonez6876 or when you call them and they say oh yea just do this and it will fix the problem. Why can’t they have that in service information
The only time I hit them up is for warranty approval, those guys are dumb as rocks and have never worked on a car in their life
Techline as never helped me once. They send me on a wild goose chase that's never helped me fix one car.
I have been a master tech and a service director: one of my pet peeves was when a car was brought in and a customer was at the desk describing. The parts window is next to the service desk. For some reason these guys couldn't stay quiet ; chomping on the bit to blurt out what they think. Like they were on a game show . Made me crazy .
Best part about equipment. Bill by the hour and drive time. Send em the invoice when its done. No estimates or quotes that plague the auto industry
Right, Not if charged correctly. Last year i did the most hours in my shop and 80 percent of my work is diag.
There should be one hour minimums for any troubleshooting.
Lack of parts profit must be accounted for.
All of these points are non issues if the tech documents and justifies and the shop charges correctly.
The perk to doing a ton of diag is that we do diag for over 100 shops. Many times they just give us the customer
MOST SHOPS JACK UP THE PARTS JUST WAY TOO MUCH
@@Mustangg16 Probably not, parts profit is what pays for being able to stand behind your work. If you don't get a 50% gross profit on parts it's hard to stand behind your repairs for two to three years because you just aren't making enough to hit a net profit of 15 to 25% a month. IF you aren't hitting that there's a good chance the shop is not as financially secure as it needs to be to attract good techs and service writers or stay current on education and tooling making diag work even harder than it is already.
50%!!!NO WONDER PEOPLE HATE SHOPS AND MECHANICS. ISNT THE $125.00 + AN HOUR ENOUGH TO MAKE MONEY???
@@Mustangg16 no it's not. There's that pesky overhead and warranty
@@SuperMarioDiagnostics THE PRICE OF DOING BUISNESS
Im so glad i worked pure flat rate before it was made illegal in California. It taught me so much about how to basically run a business out of my stall, which transcended me into shop ownership. These kids now a days dont understand that you bill for every second youre on a car (and then some, if youre smart!). Especially with diag!!! Diagnosis is the most expensive thing to learn, tool up for, train for etc and takes the most time out of your day AND PAYS THE LEAST.. there needs to be a big shift as far as im concerned.. anyone can replace a part but diagnosis is a skill that is often impossible to perfect
Illegal in Cali huh?
Illegal in Cali huh?
@Bryan Mortensen yep. Have to have hourly - you can pay a bonus beyond that but you need a base pay that revolves around hourly. Some LA lawsuit happened around 2012
Kids these days? The younger generation are the ones that are charging. It’s the older shop owners that let everything go charge 60 an hour and never really built up a business to even be able to hire anyone except a “helper” for a few hundred in cash a week
Not sure where you’re working, but it sounds like it’s time to move on. I’ve never worked at a shop that had a hard time making a profit, especially where flat rate is used.
Nothing is ever black and white so that makes these kindve topics tricky to discuss. Our shop goes through the same problems. I understand it's hard to bill something like that as a service writer. But I've asked my service writer plenty of times, "how come it took me an hour and a half to diag that car but you only charged 45 minutes? But you still charge a full 1.25 hr brake job when I did it in thirty minutes?" Obviously a lot of variables within that question but you guys understand what I'm trying to say.
That's it there. I can make 200 percent throwing parts. But train all the time for straight up time or less, this has to stop. No incentive
Well said sir! I work at a shop that charges for diagnosis time (finally). I have worked at many that complain about a 2 hour diag time for electrical, but didn't charge the customer a dime for diagnosis, and the repair is $15 in supplies & 15 minutes of labor. You are a 1000% correct! 👍👍
I know right, but the diag only guy gets $250 pretty much to look at it.
That includes ZERO repairs
You mean that the last shop I worked at that payed commission was screwing me by only paying 17% of the total bill? I ended up getting fired for complaining about not making anything off of diags because they would not get more than 1 hour even if it took all day
What you said is so true hourly or flat rate Must bill for the time and experience. Many do not know cost of equipment we use at times such as a pico or snapon scope. Knowledge and experience has a Price Great Video Flat Rate Master. I am a 28 year experienced master ase tech with l1. I just dont pass test I deal with the issues Shop I work at informs and charges for all. As you said business ! not here to lose money we are here to profit. Once again great video with big mistake many are making. Hourly and Flat rate.
Been there. I was the Guru at a shop that got all the hard ones. Been to 4 shops in the East end. Pop the hood, and all shiny new tune up components. Customer has already spent the money and pervious techs have got paid. Now they really want it fixed. I was the guy that would find that green wire and fix it after all the gravy was gone. I loved the challenge, and I was hourly, but felt bitched out.
I believe any Diagnosis should be charged a minimum of 2.5 hours. Anything associated with the diagnosis should be also charged such as for example: removing seat, removing wheels, removing carpet every little tenth counts. To top it off 1.5 hours should be charged for the actual solder/ wire repair. My believe is that a diagnosis, removal of parts to find shorts and the actual repair should all be charged separate.
Exactly
I did a draw test on a older sequoia. Took about 30 min to isolate the draw to the RAD 2 fuse.
Now look up what that fuse supports. Radio, icp, alarm, lighting control , just about everything interior side. Now you need mire time to isolate from there. So much fun.
@@Mac-mu9cs finding the fuse was just the beginning
As a shop owner, I completely agree with the FRM on this one. My shop runs just as he described. We charge for diagnosis because we have to or else we go out of business.
Dealers seem to charge very well for daig
Usually follows a flow chart.
Scan system for codes .5hr, lean bank 1 and 2
Inspect this and that.4 , fuel pressure test .6, vacuum leak test .4, injector balance test .8 THEN when they think they found the problem its now charged for that repair
I guess that is why the subcontractors with the scopes and scanners roll around.
Right and most dont fix anyrhing, they tell you what to fix. We dont see mobile guys much anymore , theres a few places around that just do diag. Your at their mercy . Try finding someone to do a parasitic draw diag these days.
That's exactly why we roll around with scopes and scanners.
@@derekdlick2516 your a mobile diag tech.
What do you charge just to show up
@@Mac-mu9cs $60 is the lowest I ever go. I only charge that for existing customers. Or something totally stupid. Just out of good faith. I had a repeat customer call me the other day because his truck wouldn't start. Turns out it he didn't put it in park. So I charged him $60 but he gave me $80 for my effort. $100 for any real problem up to an hour. After that I switch to $110 an hour straight time, or I'll ball park it and tell them I need a budget of $320 on the high end. With that being said I still get tips. Some people are just so happy I got them down the road or figured out. I do repairs and I mark parts up. Mark them up because selling them lower than the vendor also steps on their toes. I consider that markup gas money. I will do gravy tickets. I just did upper control arms, lower ball joints, a brake master cylinder and from not and rear brakes on a truck. I do mechanical because why not it's really good money why not take it, I also live in a city of about 1 million so I need other work to push me through the dry spells. But it also keeps me out of that $160-$180 an hour range I should be charging if I did strictly diagnostic and programming. With that said my customers still tell me to charge more. There is a lot of value in getting your multimeter out and doing quick confirmation test even if you know what the problem is from repeat failure. Market as high quality not low budget. Don't go to low because shade tree mechanics and shitty shops will call trying to sublet bs work to you. So be high enough for them to not make any money of the deal so they don't call. Programming is a flat fee $150 plus subscription cost. There are a few key jobs like BMW/MINI you can charge $500 to do because after all the slots are full in the PCM BMW/MINI dealerships can't free up a slot. I can do them I can add a key. The dealer has to replace the PCM. The other thing to add about not going to low on what you charge is it screws the market when you go to cheap. Which also is why techs aren't getting paid well. I didn't start to be the cheapest. I want to be affordable. I just got tired of help a shop that undersells my skill set and everyone else's skill set.
@@derekdlick2516 in my area for a monile diag tech which are few get min $100 just to show up.
Theres some franchise chain mobile tech vans rolling around lately but I bet the techs running the vans are poorly paid also.?
Crazy times ahead.
4 hours is what we would charge. Plus the time it took to fix the problem. We are paid hourly and charge the customers hourly.
At the shop I'm at now they do NOT reward diag very well. I get paid 18 percent parts and labor so to win you want low hours and expensive parts. If I do brakes and suspension all week I'll bring home 1500-1600 in that week. Last week I did a lot of EVAP and electrical diag and I only brought home 800 bucks. They definitely dont pay you for skill
This is what I found recently looking for a new home for me and my box. 18% in my eyes is not enough. Especially when you have to trust the service writer to charge correctly. I laughed at the places paying commission , they are looking for bodies vs skills. Job like that should be a fixed min and commission. To make matters worse if your service writer sucks at up selling your screwed.
Your shop SUCKS. There are shops all over begging for help. Find a better shop to spend your blood, sweat, and tears at and make money while you are at it. Seriously. Life is too short to work for a crap shop managed by a craphead.
@@rontiemens2553 your not wrong , there are shops all over looking for help. I have been looking for 3 weeks now.
None of them are offering pay above a no skill job in this area. They all seem to be looking for bodies vs brains.
Very frustrating.
Great points Bro !!!!!!
This could really go down the rabbit hole really fast. Charging that much time for diagnosis is a slippery slope. There can be a lot of dishonesty in this scenerio. I have been in the automotive world for 20 years as a tech and this is just not realistic or feasable for the customer. Hear me out on this one.. If a tech is constantly taking 4 hours to diagnose an engine light or a short or whatever the case may be, chances are the problem lies with the technician and not the billing process. Another thought, most shops such as the local chain tire/exhaust shops have no business playing with diags anyways.
Yeah billing for a techs incompetence is definitely a problem. But most of these hard diags the customer has already paid $$$$ for incompetence. Charge them what you need to.
Any shop owners out there? How often do you hire a tech with say 15 or more years experience? Whats the pay rate in your area for experience.?
In the 1970s there were auto electric shops that specialized in diagnostics, regular shops sent their customers to those specialty shops.
it's also incumbent on the tech to communicate tests & processes & then the service writers to charge appropriately. it isn't the techs fault. sw just need to do their job.
Yup. Too many guys want to write down "Has code x, needs part y" then expect to get paid.
You get a new customer that you're brake specialist can rip off later
Good advice Mike
In my experience the main factor in charging credibly for diag is getting it right for the customer . Too many techs give diag work (and the shop they work for) a bad reputation by lazily firing the parts cannon & costing the customer 3 times as much to “repair” the fault because they can’t be bothered to grow their own knowledge & understanding of how systems function on modern vehicles. Shops that get it right most times for their customers will always find it easier to bill for diag time 👍
As an independent, I find even dealers now are more and more just parts changers. People come in and say the dealers wants to change XXX parts, and then they may need to change X part. Guess they are just covering their ass and making it easy, but a lot of expensive parts for nothing. Had one guy spend over 4 grand at a Ford dealer only to find out it was apparently water getting in the gas because of a rusted filler neck. They charged the plugs, fuel pump twice, gas tank removed to fix a dent in it. Next step was the ECU. A lot of shops and especially dealerships are just too free with the customers money.
Paying more for a proper diagnosis can be cheaper for the customer than throwing parts at it.
Where I work at we worked on a company truck for weeks trying to figure out why the heater wouldn't work. Everytime I asked the guys have you checked the solenoid that controls the fan they all said yes it has power. Finally one day I looked at them and said you do know that electricity needs a complete circuit in order to work right. You've got power. Did anybody check for a ground? They grounded the solenoid and it started working.
Diag needs to be billed carefully. Also shops both owners and techs need to be careful when taking on a job.
SE MA the rot is awful , the green sknot cancer runs deep. Already seeing lots of wire corrosion on 2019s It gets ugly quick
The top diag only shops around here dont touch anything 10 years or older.
There base price is $250 just to get a game plan out of them. They do ZERO repairs other than module flashing/programming
Which is another hurtle going forward. You need to be able to flash/program so much after repairs.
Heck even the reprogramming after a dead battery can take long enough you have to charge for it.
Its getting crazy out there for the small guys. The aging shops with 10 years or so till retirement are just going to hang on as long as they can
I just started at a new shop today. What I noticed today is that I worked my butt off doing diag on a bunch of Ford diesels that have been sitting because they have electrical issues that no one wanted to tackle. I diag’ed 2 trucks and two vans, I probably only flagged 5 hours today. The service writer initially told me that they only pay .5 hours on diags. I told him that wasn’t going to work for me. I need at least 1 hour. Hopefully I can work something out because I like the shop. But I’m not chasing a v-ref issue on a freaking 6.0 van for one hour. What I am trying is I use the .5 hour to determine the scope of the diag. Once I know how in depth I need to go I go back to the service writer and tell him what I need for time.
your box has wheels for a reason. Update me on the situation.
@@mk718bx5 I’m working on it. The service writer is the problem. The owner told me that I need to tell him what we need to do. Not the other way around. Really like the shop and the owner. Hopefully we can resolve things.
there are so many hourly shops for diesel techs, fleet techs, ect.... I don't know what part of the country you are in but here near Chicago shops are paying $45 an hour plus or higher.... do yourself a favor and keep looking for a better opportunity for yourself
@@edwardboers2269 I’m paid North of $45 an hour. But I am at the shop from 7:30 until 6, 5 days a week. Then I’m there on Saturday….to work on my own stuff, but I typically help out with other things. For about 35-40 hours of pay per week.
You will probably get fired for not being fast enough....best advice I can give you is go to school and get a STEM degree. Fuck these over qualified used car salesmen that run modern shops. If you can diag these cars and find problems they can't, you are too smart for those morons.
Dude warranty does not pay for diag , hence the reason they throw a part at it .Boom
Thanks.
I Love the ASOG guys!
Just fyi, paying salary is not illegal in most states like you mentioned. However employers are banned from asking a new employee about their previous salary in most states.
Do medical doctor work on flat rate ? sometime i wonder.
Feels like it , im pressed into 15 min everytime I see my Dr. Lol
Doctors are like parts hangers/ pill pushers... they say try this pill or try that pill...
One way to do it is charge a different rate for diag. Our shop labor rate for basic work is 169.43 per hour, our diag rate is 238.43 per hour. We bill at straight time but we are getting a 40% premium for the complicated work.
Holt schnitke!!! Where you at that you can charge those rates????
@@brianmason8400 A middling sized Midwest city.
As a C tech, diagnosis is probably the most important step of workig on vehicle, how am i goingnto fix the problme by throwing parts at it? Glad my shop is smart and will eben charge 2-3x extra for diag and of the labor is longer. We shovel all the "cheap" customers to the shop next door , which recently got raided by police lmfao.
To me it boils down to in the old days a 99% diag to 5-20 minutes fast forward now a good diag takes hours and in the transition the service advisor have a hard time selling the diag time because they don’t want to lose the job so they give it away to land the job
Your service advisors need training or they need to be paid off of gross profit or both.
@@crashm1 no just move on to shop where my expectations are met.
The shop Forman does all the heavy diag where I’m at. And I’m him. I also do inspections and emissions so they are making bank on me. But that gets back to what you said about proper pay
When I was a flat rate tech, diag time was time and a half for electrical issues.....I always got paid fairly, and therefore I was always eager to tackle the "hard ones".
Can you elaborate on how salary paid technicians is illegal in most states? I've been pushing a wrench for a long time and I've never heard that. Why would it be illegal?!
Most labor laws see your own tools, which require you to be paid for time working. Cannot say why that is other than that is the laws
Grocery stores call it a loss leader. Gettim in the door so they purchase the higher profit items
Diagnosis is part of the repair process. Make customer aware before starting!
Not only the money for the tech also the investment in equipment that has to be considered when billing
Any Diagnostic should start out at 2 hours minimum! If the customer doesn't want to pay it, someone else can loose their butt.
You have to have a higher diag time. You have to make up for the techs level of pay plus the part loss. Parts GP loss is at $47-55. So you need to add that on your labor rate.
Damn straight, always getting screwed for the diag because I am the only one who actually knows how modern electronics and computer controlled engine management works. But its only 1hr of labor...even though I had to tear apart the entire interior to find a chafing can-bus wire.
I agree with you 💯
In our shop we base things like this on hourly approach. I tell the customer we will spend 1-2 hours and yes you will be billed for it to start our approach on finding the problem from that point if it takes longer I will call and discuss it.
9 out of 10 customers will pick the car up and go on to the next shop.
Seems today nobody wants these headaches so you really have to monitor the phones when these type of customers call for a estimate. If we spend 3-4 hours on something I’m billing 6-8 hours. Sorry not sorry.
"That magic car" 😆
As a service writer, how to do I bill 6 hours when 4 hours was logged on the job? I want honesty on both sides of the counter.
You're just adding 50 percent to the ticket to cover losses compared to the flat rate parts hanger
suggest to your boss that diagnostic hours need to be billed at a higher rate than normal labor hours.
At Toyota they won’t pay for warranty diag in 90% of cases. It’s ridiculous. Even when it’s not warranty half of the diag work that comes in doesn’t have any time billed. So if it’s not something simple I’m going to the advisor and asking for an hour diag.
You should work on cars you know well. This is exactly what makes auto repairs shops look dishonest. If a service writer hears this has been to six shops send this customer to the dealer. Maybe a few times a year there is a 4 hr diagnosis time is required, if more than you are working on cars u don't know well. We usually get a half hour diagnosis time for many events we know the issue to repair that take 10 minutes to diagnosis. Count those times against the 4 hr diagnosis times. I do believe good technicians should make more than they today, but not at the expense of a customer that most likely needs our skills more than most.
They charge 13 hours to rebuild a transmission but the tech doesn't tear down the whole transmission isn't that fraud
Okay, but who is that customer going to take his car to when he needs all the "gravy" work such as brakes, etc? Probably to the "smart" shop who hire "real" mechanics.
They'll go right back to the shit shop that shot up their car with the parts cannon.
i used to work for a shop that charges 30 minutes. period. thats all they charged, if it took longer, tough.
The state cops should go dumpster diving at all garages and dealerships and look for gentle used parts
Yea big talk.. but try being an independent shop and keeping customers when you dont get the repair right the first time and charge them 2 full days of diag time, hold their cars for 3 weeks waiting on parts then that part not be the fix so you make them wait another 2 weeks on parts and 6 more hours of diag time, money for a part they didnt need, flat rate repair on putting the parts in plus the part they didnt need then admin time.. and the car is a 98 malibu.. boom you just charged them more than the things worth.. what you gonna do when they dont pay? Or cant pay? Keep the shitty car and sell it? Still wont get the money back..
Another Thing. If You Fix it Cheap they won't Come back. Or They'll Expect the Cheap Ever Time.
People undervalue stuff. I'm a mobile field mechanic for equipment. I charge what it took+ whatever service fees. If the other guy can't fix it why am I taking a cut? What's he gonna do... go to the other guy?
Mazda warranty diag is the most bullshit warranty I’ve been a part of. I worked on about 6/9 diags on last Wednesday and the 6 of those were an absolute waste of time (a/c complaints but had the a/c button off, infotainment system not on when vehicle turns on, customer has the power button off, etc etc) and Mazda warranty will not pay you anything for wasting time on these tickets. If you don’t find a part needing repair, you don’t get paid. When I first started diagnosing, they denied every ticket I submitted due to “insufficient information regarding repair and diagnosis” when I would type a full outline of my diag with pictures of the fuses blown. Warranty is an absolute joke.
It's unethical to charge people more hours than what they worked. If you want to make more money then charge More money per hour for diagnose.
It's kind of a wash at the end of the day though. My shop charges XX for the base labor rate, WW for older cars, YY for Euros and ZZ for diag time. Alternatively we could just use a labor multiplier on the base rate for all of those jobs and end up at the same final price.
@@crashm1 You can charge $500 an hour to diagnose if you want But if you overcharge the hours people are gonna feel cheated
@@aldonco Well you could also not talk about hours and instead just discuss dollars. Makes no never mind to me, my service writer can sell diagnostic time.
I worked with a guy, in my 1st independent shop, and he was actually good with scoping knowing random data variables. I ended up leaving and going to Christian Brothers. My guy was getting 32/hr HOURLY to come to work and chill while the other guys flagged time. He was their back up , last resort, Mr fix it guy.. I was shocked 😲
Oddly, I worked for a CBA as well. Quickly became the go to guy for electrical and diagnostics and involuntarily the heavy-line guy. BUT there was a younger guy there, half my age that didn't know Jack about diagnostics, but didn't have the family at home that I did so he could always come in early/ stay late, come in on days off just on a whim. Very quickly the "favoritism" in the shop started to show. PLUS the fact I fixed a vehicle that supposedly needed a PCM (boss loves that idea), but I just fixed some wiring and it was good to go. Shop owner got VERY heated about not selling and getting to program a PCM. The fact that I fixed it and Cust was happy didn't matter. He finally let me go because he sided w a customer about a wheel coming off even though there was ZERO evidence I had ever touched it. But, the other employees called me after the fact to ask how to use the 4 channel Pico that was getting covered with dust.....
@@brianmason8400 YEA he grew up in the shop at 12yrs old in a family shop... that was all he had and his grandfather taught him the Pico. ANY WAY, He left the shop i was at originally for favoritism and a toxic climate. He went to CBA because he personally knew the shop owner and they REALLY needed a guy who was capable so they game him Hourly. He complained about getting paid 30/hr for watching the entire serious of game of thrones.... WELL he eventually came back ... when you get paid a % of the entire repair ticket you can actually make well over 35/hr.. and when all you do is changed motors/ transmissions all day every day you can take home after tax 1500 a week. My guy was making over 2k a week. lol and then left again after i did. This business , I love fixing cars the feeling of doing something that other just can't, BUT it gets old and demotivating .After 9 years I've decided to go to the body side.. LOL sadly it's not any better and far more work and longer waiting for parts. Hopefully i'll learn actual body work and painting with in the year.
@@Howtoautorepair not a clue BUT the guy who did work there said it was alright. He worked with the "owner" and his son. I'm thinking its like McDonald's, its a franchise with individual owners
I charge a base of $120 for the first hour diagnostics and if it requires anything more than 1 hour it becomes my hourly rate of $85 per hour extra for diagnostics time is money and if some one says they can get free diagnostics I say have a nice day good luck
Wait ... hourly diagnostic guy ? Sounds like a Bigfoot sighting .
Can’t always be the hero, congrats you spent hours rooting through a car trying so save the customer a buck, when all the previous shops may have determined the problem and pitched a harness, or valve body, etc. so the job would be profitable. Those customers with the problem cars many times don’t tell the whole story, we all see it time and time again, sometimes it’s a matter of nobody’s actually looked at the car, or problem, but usually the car just needs an expensive part, that’s labor intensive to replace, and their hoping anyone will just fix a wire. For a personal vehicle, or for some food and beverage with a good friend, that’d work, but when you actually realize what a bay is worth by the hour, it’s too costly to do that favor. Test and determine, write up the needed parts, then back that car out and bring in the next.
No one going pay that period
Dealers are worthless at this point for diag. A lotta yung bucks could be better techs if they were more exposed to more oddball diags. Throw a master/apprentice situation on certain jobs. Get more guys that are able troubleshoot advan problems. IDK, IMO you got bodies around, teach em' something. One guy fix all DOES NOT WORK in a large garage.
With the power probe ECT 3000, it should not take more than 45 minutes to find a broken wire or a short.
And that isn’t an expensive tool.
Anyone who works on electrical in the automotive industry should have that in their diagnostics cartx
Ummm NO. You still need a wiring diagram and the service manual and to fully understand the circuit so the ECT3000 can even be of help. Not just anyone is busting out diags in 45 minutes.
@@dayanordonez6876
Yeah and getting at some of these connections is just awful.
The “power probes” are handy especially the newer units. When chasing hard opens , shorts yeah , but when you trying to find a intermittent or catch a bad circuit or faulty sensor that only seems to act up at 2am
Diag can be simple and complicated all at once.
Im not a 100% diag guy. I go as far as my tools will take me . Im more in the school of lets find out what its not.
Then a plan to dig deeper.
Im going to gander many shops have a guy or two that can dag very well but the shop does not have the investment in tools or training to utilize their skills.
@@dayanordonez6876
There should be stages in diagnostics. Beginning with a minimal charge for a diagnostic scan with the scan tool. Then a game plan.
@@Mac-mu9cs I agree with you. That being the case , customers don't understand and don't want to understand , they just want to know a price and guarantee a fix
You just stuck your hand up and proved you really have almost no experience or expertise. Congratulations. Well done
Diag time is biggest point..
Charge 10% for shop material of the labor..... All shop do it .....
The bottom line is, you can't work for free.
So who is supposed to fix these hard to diag cars?
I work at a dealer. If it is a problem child or takes longer than two hours to diagnose, it changes the labor 120 percent from minute 1
I'm hourly and I am that guy. Cars from all over the state come in and we can get it going. The problem lies on two things, one is that your "diagnostic guy" actually sucks. Not to be condescending, but if you give a guy 40 hours to find the problem he/she will find it. I have watched techs take 10 hours to figure out something that with, lets say, a scope you can figure out in 30 minutes... seriously I'm not kidding you. Your guy needs more training and needs to have a talk about his performance. COMMUNICATION. Don't get rid of them, empower them to do better. Another thing; you must have very good communication with your service writer and be insanely diligent with time if you are hourly. When I am half into the time allotted, I need to have an answer or a path because either I will have the answer within the next 15 minutes (that I still have and WAS sold to the customer) or I need to know exactly how much time to ask for. Once my hour is done, I am done. On to the next while I wait for extra time approval. The second issue is the service writers are junk. Really, if you are THAT GUY at your shop your service writer must be as cutthroat as you are. Lady, it WILL take 3 hours for us to find the issue. And it needs to be billed when they come to pick it up- the FULL amount. If your service writer is screwing you or screwing the shop that way, you have proved you're worth more elsewhere. There is specialty shops that NEED that guy and will pay BANK for it because their system in place is actually tried and true. Just my 2 cents.
Speaking of Keith Defazio: No doubt he's a great tech. But he's a terrible teacher in his videos; unless the point of his videos is giving himself a pat on the back.
If you need a teacher watch Paul Danner. Keiths videos are good for experienced guys but a rookie ain't gonna benefit from them.
Repeat issues
Most of the "unfixable" cars aren't anything hard most of the time it just it went to three shops that shouldn't be in business in the first place. The real problem is most shops charge 1 hour or "feel bad" about charging anything and are to scared to ask for more money. When I sell diag I start with an hour and if I think it's going to take more time within my first 10 minutes I give the customer a ball park of what time frame I think I can diagnose it in. It's called sales something most front ends don't know how to do. The argument of diag techs being hourly really comes from when you are working in a large dealership where you have to oversee a 20-30 bay shop. I personally don't care if they charge while they pay me hourly because if I told someone how to run their business I would be told go open my own.
All he keeps saying is profit, but he really is saying…Screw the customer, charge for everything, and write up as much BS work “ needed” as possible.
Go to your local shop “ Bob” who is great at fixing cars for a great price ( word of mouth) and avoid people and shops like the FRM.
Bob is usually loading the parts cannon though and selling parts in order of their likely hood of fixing the car. When Bob has run out of parts it comes to someone competent who wants to get paid for their knowledge and the sweat it took to get it.
My response to people who don't want to pay our fee for diag work is "Sounds great and have the car out of the lot by end of day." I've been doing this professionally for 37 years I'm getting paid.
Ats Escope elite
Funny you make a slot of videos predicting your own future haha