Dimpled Carb Spacer Dyno Test
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- čas přidán 5. 06. 2024
- I dyno tested two different dimpled carb spacers from polymer racing products.
Link to purchased having dyno number text to you.
weingartnerracing.braveshop.c...
Link to preorder book with all dyno tests from last session
weingartnerracing.braveshop.c... - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Hi Eric, Thanks for running these dyno pulls, and providing these very detailed results!
Note the tapered spacer you got (PRP1003) was designed for an intake with square opening, not cloverleaf. We have a tapered spacer specifically designed for the cloverleaf intake (PRP1049). This is why I think you got better results, running what we call “hybrid open” spacer (PRP1054) backwards because it provided the perfect transition for the airflow into the intake when you ran it backwards.
We’d be more than happy to send you a tapered spacer, that is specifically designed for the cloverleaf intake you got, if you want to give it a try. We carry it in both 1 inch (PRP1049) and 2 inch thickness (PRP1048). We’ve seen best results with 2” spacers. Might be a competitor to your 2 inch 4500 to 4150 cheater spacer :)
Thanks again for the honest review!
Eric, I professionally ported heads from 1980 until 2000. I love your channel, please keep the HONEST information coming . Thank You
The “magic” HVH spacer adapts a 4500 to a 4150 manifold. The other thing it does is add more plenum volume. How about testing it vs a selection of 2” spacers…great stuff Eric, thanks.
I wonder if anyone else has tried the spacers upside down? thanks for sharing, all the best to you and your loved ones
I'm guessing the flipped over version gained because it smoothed the flow out nicely and helps the air/fuel turn into the runner entries.
Yeah the other direction looked all wrong and not smooth
Spacers that work better upside down is trying to tell you something. Maybe the whole flow situation needs to be looked at. Maybe it is not more air flow the engine wants, but better air flow. Better air flow is not always more air flow. I would study fluidic control systems. These are control systems that operate on fluid only. These types of control systems are capable of accurately switching air flows at very high speeds without any electronics and operate somewhat like an engine intake manifold does. There are some similarities. One of the best books on this subject is Fluidic Systems Design by Charles A. Belsterling. This 232-page book dives deep into fluid flow and how to control it. These fluidic systems were used to control high performance jet fighter aircraft long before the use of microchip-based computers.
Have them make spacers without the dimples, that would settle if its the dimples or the overall design.
I can see a little bit of Bernoulli's principle with the upside down open tapered spacer on the AFR manifold.
With that manifold I would think a non tapered cloverleaf would work best. I think the cloverleaf of the intake causes turbulence. That is why the spacer upside down worked better.
I remember hearing Darin Morgan talk about dimples at some point. He said something interesting. While the dimples creates a boundary layer, that layer also effectively narrowes down the tube or port. What he said was, that if the runner or port is large enough, it can work. A golf ball does not have limited space around it, so there will never be the same potential issue of an air resistance due to a narrowing of the space.
The narrowing doesn’t increase velocity ? Through the CSA of the boundary?
@@ecc5119
Only to a point. At some point it will just act as a smaller runner that is not large enough. This I assume is why he said “if the port or runner is large enough”.
I remember him saying in a DBG live stream that if a port is too big, they might help, but otherwise not a good idea.
Golf ball dimples cause air resistance and what allows the ball to stay stable in the air by causing friction more or less. That’s also why I can control the ball and turn it right to left at will by causing more or les spin to grab the air in whatever direction.
@@Thumper68
You are way off and completely wrong.
I have actually tried hitting smooth golf balls, and they go nowhere compared to those with dimples.
Dimples on a golf ball create a thin turbulent boundary layer of air, that clings to the ball's surface. This allows the smoothly flowing air to follow the ball's surface a little farther around the back side of the ball, thereby decreasing the size of the wake. A dimpled ball thus has about half the drag of a smooth ball.
Dimples also affect lift. A smooth ball with backspin creates lift by warping the airflow such that the ball acts like an airplane's wing. The spinning action makes the air pressure on the bottom of the ball higher than the air pressure on the top; this imbalance creates an upward force on the ball. Ball spin contributes about one half of a golf ball's lift. The other half is provided by the dimples, which allow for optimization of the lift force.
Dimples on a golf ball does the exact opposite of what you claim. Dimples are also used in other instances, where smooth and fast airflow is needed.
Always interesting and explained well.
Thanks!!
Awesome awesome video and thank you for sharing all your efforts!
I love those kinda stuff, lol. I don't even have a V8 or Chevy engine!!
The spacer being plastic? I wonder of they could produce a clear one, use some dye and see it inside?
Great testing/video! Thank you.
The last spacer atomizers the fuel better awesome video brother 💯✌️
It seems to me that the runners want to pull from the middle of the manifold not from the carburetor. Maybe the flow from the carburetor needs to be aimed at the center of the manifold and let the runners pull from there. The most direct path may not be the best path.
it is they need to make a spacer funnel shaped with vents to help atomize
Thanks Eric, I enjoy your dyno testing.
On a couple of 383sbc pumpgas engines I have the 2" 4 hole or a 1" 4 hole on top of a 1" open spacer has always picked up 6 - 10 hp for me above 6000rpm.
These are 580 hp deals pulled to 7000rpm on the dyno.
My opinion is the small increase in plenum volume is just enough to get the engine to 7000rpm.
I have backed this up at the track as well 3505 lb streeter runs a best of 10.46 @ 126.85mph.
1.43 in the 60ft.
Again thanks very much for your time and effort.
20 H/P a lot for a spacer great test
Great dyno runs
I don't think the basic idea is wrong when people think of golf balls. If it's the object moving through air, or air moving through an object, motion is relative.
The issue, I think, is the application. Lots of proven power adding techniques can cause you to lose power if applied incorrectly.
Most of the dimple application I see seems to have it's heart in the right place, but really lacks the proper analysis, and testing, from a complete perspective that takes into account all of the variables at play, and where it fits into the big picture.
Eric did video on dimples during the "internet ports heads" series, and when only applied to certain areas of the port, the dimples helped on the flow bench. They are vortex generators that thicken the boundary layer, so there is no point in using them everywhere in the port unless the entire port were too large. At that point, a smaller port would make more sense.
Awesome video with lots of data...
A great old engine builder, Jimmy Edwards Sr. once told me if all the 20 hp better claims through his career were true, he could build a na 350 with 2500 hp. LOL
I'm glad you tested these spacers brother...I bought one for my Iraqi Taxi 229ci build. The 1.5" 4 holed CNC tapered I put on previous woke-up the bottom and mid part throttle like I've never seen before...we'll see what this does...
The dimples will probably help whenever the manifold is not in "tune" because of better atomization during that time. I.E. the dimples help break up liquid fuel wash into something burnable.
Be interesting to see if the tapered 4 hole applies to intakes converted to efi with an elbow on top or carb style throttle body to see if its just the air flow or atomization.
Be interesting to see the same spacer smooth. Looks obvious it would smooth the transition better upside down. Try that AFR on top!!
love it
Smooth transition from carb to intake through port will make for the fastest flow into the cylinder.
It would be interesting to tap one for Nitrous and see what it would do ? Great Job Eric ! 😎
it would be interesting they should make one of these spacers funnel shaped directing flow to the center of the intake
So much like the golf ball the dimples increase the boundary layer which reduces drag which in turn increases velocity maintaining fuel suspension in the airstream leading to more torque on the bottom and top by widening the tuned intake pulsing. Whew, that's a run on sentence.
Speaking of the upside down dimple spacer.
I think it’s most plausible it created better fuel mixture running the plate upside down. The other possibility is better air distribution overall.
Lastly it might have just been perfect match by luck and you might find it loses power on another manifold.
I saw a similar test done on another channel (Piss Cutter Performance maybe), that had similar results with the overturned cloverleaf spacer. Theirs was not dimpled. It is my understanding that the dimples are effective in creating a boundary layer, to keep the fuel suspended in the air stream, instead of clinging to walls. I've seen test with varying results, so it's hard to say. Those dimples, or Von Kharman dimples, seem to be really effective on top of the piston, married to a poor chamber shape. None the less, this was a very interesting test. Thanks for sharing with us. God bless
Love all this stuff man! I think it’s just air/fuel distribution/atomization with the dimples. I know when you did the intake runner it lost flow but I could see it making more power anyway
I'll be dammed! I didn't think those would work. I want to try one!
Try a double stack of the best two...
Great experiment! I wonder if the backwards dimpled spacer has better anti-reversion at the carb interface.
Well now i know whic side is upsidedown i do wonder if the open plenum without the clover a backwards space do the same thing as the afr manifold that would be a neat test because some manifold don't have that clover design but we will see. Good testing like always Eric
eric is it possible to do a dimple test on an intake port, but just dimple the short radius , on a different port you could dimple the long radius . i think there would be plus or negative gain. ive wondered about this for 40 years ( yeah im old as dirt ) but never had the gear to test it. thanks love the testing you do.
Eric; I've been porting heads since 1963. You can have to much air speed or not enough! You have to think about laminar air flow also
also
Rest of my reply: one thing is that air only likes to flow in a straight line. The key is to figure out how to make the air turn!!! 🤔🤔
9:22 nice lil Data Void jab thrown in there 😄🫡
On the subject of dimple porting I have heard so comments from Terry Redbourn (ex-Mercedes f1 and advance racing engines(le mans)), he said that dimple porting was useful in port injected engines where fuel efficacy was so important that you ran on the lean said of stoichiometric. The reason why this helps is it prevents fuel sticking to the intake runner creating inconsistency in a/f ratio, some of these engines run so lean that they are on the edge of misfiring if they go any leaner. However in a more normal engine application he did not suggest that dimple porting increased power.
source episode 105 High Performance Academy tuned in podcast.
On your point around 1:15 all motion is relative ball moving through air should be the same as air moving through ball.
Your favourite spacer and a 4500 holley, only gained 3 or 4 horses 🐎 last week on just mopar Joe's channel.
Basic 440 with tf240 heads, 243 at 50 hydraulic roller, about 550hp 😊
I think you heard that wrong. The hvh 4500 to 4150 gains between 10-20 everytime that’s my favorite. It just requires a dominator. The favorite 4150 is the afr which is barely 3-5hp better than most.
@@WeingartnerRacing thanks for the reply Eric, I know you're busy.
Re read my original post.
Your favourite hvh 4500 to 4150 adapter only gained 3 or 4hp on just mopar Joe's CZcams channel last week.
I can send you the link if you like.
Maybe the fuel mixture coming out of the carb and hitting the inward tapered wall of the upside down dimpled spacer is creating more shear of the mixture atomizing it more completely thus the big gain??
Dimple clover leaf upside down with hvh 4500 adapter stacked on top
The shape of the clover made the difference not the dimples. The dimples causing turbulence atomizing the fuel more.
atomizing is what I want,,,like to see it on a sbc 383 from 3k to 6500
Maybe not the most flow, but the best flow that is involved. If the center area of the manifold is thought of as a bucket that the runners are pulling from, and the carburetor just keeps the bucket filled. Only one runner at a time is actually pulling air from the bucket anyway. A high flow from the carburetor directed to the center of the bucket to keep it filled may be the answer.
I like this analogy. Though I think the "center of the bucket" moves around quite a bit depending upon which runner is pulling from the bucket. So the center of the bucket is relative to which cylinder is drawing air.
@@frotobaggins7169 Right. If any better NA performance is to be made a different approach to air flow is needed.
Eric, International Dyno Authorities youtube channel tested both of these 4150 spacers on a 408 Sbc 2 months ago, and they supposedly got 21 hp gain. I been an 4500 HVH spacer supporter for a long time, especially on power adder.
not sure theirs is a true apples to apples comparison since they went from a 2" tapered to a 1" tapered dimple. They might have picked up more power using a 1" Wilson spacer. who knows
@five27racing I'm not sure either. I wasn't there to know if there was any trickery, so I always take internet with a grain of salt. The only 2 spacers I use it the 2" HVH with a procharger blow through combo, and it was great. Right now, I have the Trick 2.375" tall space for the 2 burst panels. It didn't show a gain, but it didn't lose power either.
It would have been interesting to see the dimpled 4 hole upside down
I would love to see the upside down clover dimped spacer on a "street engine" starting from 2000rpm up to the 5500 /6000 rpm.
To clarify a cam shaft in the °230ish duration range and a lift somewhere below .580 .
This is all about the venturi effect.
Venturi effect
Interesting but I run engines that have way lower power bands 700-4500 rpm max and duel plane intakes , be interesting to see them on a low rpm grunt engine
I agree, it's interesting but starting at 4,500 rpm is a racing only application. I get that dynos present a problem off idle up to about 2,500 rpm but most people don't spend much time in the 5,000 + range. They might want to. Their heart may be in the racing range but on the street, it's just impractical.
Depends on how much plenum volume you already have. Dual planes with spacers generally give lots more low and midrange torque and can help in the higher rpm’s. I doubt you would see the big gains like he has here though
Using a center punch to create burrs is the answer on a 180 manifold below the carb or just annular boosters . Get it mixed fuine as possible !!!
Hey Eric,
Tim here, ur octane guess was not right...u bring a bunch of 91 octane, and put a splash race gas in (110/116) in and say 94....the %/ratio HAS to be right to say what the octane really is.......look, i'm math nerd...heres the formula
[(% fuel A) x (octane #A)] + [(% fuel B) x (octane #B)]= final octane #........so: i mix 4 gal of 90 non-ethanol (.8) with 1 gal leaded 110 Race gace (.2) I net 5 gal of 94 octane, no ethanol, with a tiny splash of lead....use this to really know where ur at......i thought ur guesstamites were a bit lofty....THIS is the formula!!.....and i'm a DIE HARD, LOYAL WEINGARTNER RACING, fan, own 6 t- shirts, uh, need more soon......just hope u'll use the formula, and mabe some fans...it IS the mathematical determination!!....ok, TY sir...PEACE to you!!
Yeah flipping through CZcams and sure enough found the 21 hp gain video for the spacer.
Hey Eric you know I had a spacer different material idea so I guess people are going away from aluminum and trying fonalic in class but some say wood. Now yes I do see 3 different type of material spacers but none of them are the same design but overall which would you prefer material wize aluminum, fonalic or wood
I would like to see this same test on a blow through setup ?
Do you think at lower engine speeds the deposition of more effect from like 2000 to 5500 RPMs
It looks like it makes a velocity stack.
I agree, both the “cheater” and the flipped dimple “choke” the air flow down, which “should” increase air speed
The dimples are a gimmick. This test shows more about spacer shape. You would need identical spacers, one with dimples and one without to verify dimple differences. Having the cloverleaf upside down makes sense on that manifold as it would induce a radius into the runners vs a sheering edge when placed in normal orientation. Testing on a manifold with a square opening will be interesting.
You just need to research a lot of money just to see if it works the best Dyno is your race car it's all snake oil !
Take it to the track make only one thing at a time so you know what works.
R.Roman
NHRA Sportsman Racer 😊
@@annmarierudolph2291 While I agree. It's hard enough to see legitimate differences on the dyno if they are only 2 or 3 horsepower here and there. You will never measure that at the track.
Idk if it’s even possible, I’m just spitballing here. But I would be interested in seeing the flow numbers on the manifolds with the different spacers. Maybe measure speed at different areas? 🤷♂️ Whats Ive seen on other channels is that dimples only help in low pressure areas and hurt in high pressure areas.
Have you ever tested spacers with Holley Sniper Stealth ?
What would you say is the best spacer for a gen2 lt1gmpp dual plane? Great video man!
Did you try the HVM and the dimpled cloverleaf upside down together? Do they fit one another?
Nice! I'm early
The takeaway I get from all this is that its all so marginal that looking at results on one engine won't give you any idea what it'll do on something else... Like ,would you be surprised if best to worst totally reversed on a different engine family and manifold? Im still tempted to try the backwards open dimpled one for torque on my single plane 445 FE !
It's a very interesting idea and I'm sure it works, but the power/torque difference isn't worth the price increase.
Nice test. How about testing these spacers on a typical street engine, 400hp, 383 from 3000-6000rpm.
There is company dumpling pistons and other stuff on diesels. I had contacted them to see if they did pistons for my Ls3. They don't. I was wanting to see if it helped. But I'd have to run it and pull it and reassemble the engine. I'm not pulling my engine in and out. That would be good on a engine dyno. Or someone that can pull engines quick. That's not me. Lol. Interesting tech tho.
As i understand its to try to keep fuel in suspention through creating turbulance.
I could be wrong, but it's necessary in a deisle engine because the stroke and hollow space in the piston is enough for raw fuel to settle on the piston.
@@____MC____ oh ok cool. Tha k you very much
I'm also wondering how the plastic spacers we're holding up against the backfire through a carburetor.
I have a plastic one on my camaro for years and it’s fine but I also never have backfires..
@@Thumper68 it would probably be all right
How did it score from 5k to 7k
awesome, what was difference between the 215 cc and these 225 cc heads in power? did i miss that video?
You did. It’s back a ways.
Any thoughts on anti reversion at the carb signal improving fuel atomization ?
Didn’t make more power.
@@WeingartnerRacing I was thinking in regards to the upside down test that seemed to be better.
@@WeingartnerRacing Its to bad you were not able to test the real HVH Super sucker 4150 flange. Would be cool to see the difference compared to the HVH knock off and the AFR
I have 355 sbc,ported 2.02/1.6 461 heads, 225/235 279/289 112lsa cam,650 avs2, 10.35:1 compression..the intake is unfortunately mismatch, a torker II..im running it with 1" open spacer, would it be better without it?
Take it to the track, and try it with and without. Usually, those intakes respond to more plenum volume, but the MPH will SHOW YOU.
No it would be worse. That extra inch of fall just gives you more time for fuel to atomize better.
I’m a golf pro the dimples are simply to make it so the golf ball can be controlled and stay stable and in the air more or less using friction! Hit a golf ball without dimples and you will see the craziest knuckleball flight you’ve ever seen. I can hit 10 balls in a row and not tell you where they will end up and a ball with dimples I can hit 100 in a row a 100 yards and get them in a 10-15 foot circle. Putting dimples on a flat surface is just causing air friction when it’s going over that surface if it made it better the land speed cars and Airplanes would be covered in dimples now wouldn’t they.
This application has nothing to do with what you're talking about, but congrats on being a golfer.
@@wayne8498 that’s kinda my point but I do understand how and why dimples on golf balls work and it’s not for making air move faster and not what it does In this application.
@@wayne8498 I guess I could of mentioned my old man’s a master machinist and mechanic and has been making 700hp small blocks longer then I’ve been alive so I’ve picked up just a little bit of knowledge for this application as well.
Yup,saw the same video but didn't watch it though.
I vote to dimple an AFR spacer to see if it picks anything up vs the stock AFR spacer.
The dominator results are probably because the carburetor change itself. Am i wrong? I havnt seen the setup.
I was thinking the same thing that the dominator carburetor is probably what is gaining more HP more than the spacer adapter
No because I tried an open adapter and it was 4hp better than afr spacer and 4150 carb.
@@WeingartnerRacing so the 4150 was adapted to the dominator spacer?
Is 30 ft lbs at 4700 rpm actually going to ET better ? Seems like the motor will never be operating at that low an rpm.
It would likely show in the 60’, which would show up in the final ET. Unless it adds more torque and the car had a spinning issues to begin with.
Not every engine is operated at WOT all the time so it could be very nice at cruise speeds where you just want to pass someone carefully but not go WOT downshift and all. Sure if it's a race only engine it probably don't matter but a lot of people drive cars on the street too.
@@davidphillips3953 agreed. I footbrake launch my car at 1,500 rpm, and it immediately flashes to 4,800. An extra 30 foot pounds would definitely show up there
THE DIMPLED 4150 ON A 2701 EDELBROCK DUEL PLANE, THATS THE MANIFOLD WE HAVE TO USE IN OUR RULES. CIRCLE TRACK DIRT 1 " SPACER 7000RPM LIMITER. PLEASE REPLY.
Glad to respond. Turn off your cap lock.
@@WeingartnerRacing its off
Why not try these same spacers on a non-cloverleaf manifold?
Or maybe you did and i missed it
I did. You can purchase the book to see the results or just wait for the video to be published to see them then.
Did you test them on a intake without a clover?
Yes
Removing comments Eric
What comments.
Great video.
The cheap AFR spacer does a great job. What is its part number please? 👍🇦🇺
Looks like # AFR 227 in video.
My bad it's a AFR 4460.
Dude if someone gets me the model I have access to a printer that could print exotic material... just saying lol
The effect of dimples on a golf ball isn’t because they are flying through there. It is because they are spinning through the air. The spin is the key to dimpling. Girls softballs that are dimpled do not fly any farther when hit by a baseball bat then un dimpled soft Balls why because there’s no spin
Waste of time and money. Has already been tried and no significant improvement.
Dude really what's wrong with testing things weather it makes more power or not you always got to test something because you may never know until you test.
Could the dimple upside down clover on a dual plane intake be more fuel efficient 🤔🤔🤔
He does something similar with the four hole tapered. It wasn't dimple though he put it upside down and he did gain power. I don't know if that would be the case for every engine.