Why the Imperial Military Used Outdated Tactics
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- čas přidán 4. 06. 2023
- The Galactic Empire is supposed to be one of the most powerful government in galactic history and it's military force is the emperor's joy and pride. The Imperial military enjoys unlimited political support and a huge chunk of the empire's budget goes towards maintaining it. Yet we still see the Imperial Army using trench warfare against lightly armed insurgents and the Imperial Navy using battleship era line tactics. Why is this happening?
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Another problem with dictatorships is what they do to the officer corps. Dictators know that the most likely place for a rival to emerge will be in the military, hence they promote officers that are personally loyal to them and not too bright or ambitious. New ideas and thinking are pushed out and corruption thrives.
Another problem with the officers is that they often spend time to undermine their rivals/superiors.
@@Kubinda12345, true.
Promoting incompetents for reasons of nepotism or politics isn’t exclusively a feature of dictatorships. It also happens frequently in democracies. The problem is not organizational or ideological, rather it is psychological. States whose political leaders feel secure from external threats inevitably politicize the officer corps, because military competence does not seem necessary and so is deprioritized by the political class. This is always the case whether the political class is one leader or an elected group.
Exactly!
@@theodoremccarthy4438 So to summarize/restate your point, Palatine's military promoted incompetent yes-men because there were no significant threats to the Empire?
West Germans did a trial back in the 1970's. They set a platoon's worth of mannequins in an area laying on the ground and hit them with artillery and mortars equivalent what a Warsaw Pact standard barrage would be. Every one of the mannequins received damage that would have killed a person or wounded them so badly they wouldn't have been able to keep fighting.
They followed this up with simple slit trenches (the size of a grave but only 2-3 feet deep) and placed the mannequins so they were below ground level. Only 30% of the mannequins received any damage. After that they did a trial where they had proper trenches (4-5 feet deep and reinforced with sheet metal walls and simple overhead protection of a couple of feet of dirt) and the casualties dropped to 10%.
Moral being that, even in the modern age, trenches are used because trenches work. In the Star Wars Universe, which only seems to have line of sight energy weapons, they'd also be useful. You only have to move a small amount of dirt to create an angle where they'd have to burn though meters of soil to hit a target. A target that they may not be able to see in the first place.
They have artillery weapons every major side did, only question is if disney will make them canon
Thank you
It not that trenches are uselles, quite the opposite, they a very good way to defend a position. It more about the huge pushes that have massive casualties and earn a small amount of territory. We know that even at the start of the empire it had a lot of money, they had walkers, precise artillery and bombers. However in the movie we see them underusing this power. We see tie fighters shooting at no mans land during the push instead of right before the push shooting at the trenches to weaken enemies position, we see at-dt’s being dropped of during the push instead of starting it. I’m not a great tactician, but I do know a lot about history. Even during ww1 trench warfare was mostly still a thing because the planes could be crashed due to a slight sneeze and the tanks were quite expensive and unreliable. However during the mimban war we see tie fighters that for all the shit they arent that bad and we also know that empire has larger and reliable tanks like at-at or at-st however they decide to drop off probably the only one that mimbans can put up a fight against being the at-dt. To wrap it up it not that trenches are bad, it more that empire underutilizes it power
@@SomeoneYouHate There were a few reasons why offense ground to a halt in WW 1. Probably the biggest factor was the use of massive conscript armies. They allowed the numbers to completely entrench half a continent but they were so hastily raised and trained that the higher officers never really trusted them enough to allow the delegation of authority needed so junior officers and nco's could exploit local ground and conditions to their advantage. It was "advance from this line to this line" on the map on the orders of divisional commanders that might have been lucky to command a battalion prior to the war (look up the Peter Principle for an idea of how well that might work).
In Star Wars context the Imperial military was in a similar boat. They'd gone through an enormous expansion from essentially being non-existent prior to the Clone Wars. Even if they'd set up some pilot schools they still didn't have the staff colleges and leadership schools because they didn't really have any experienced officers that could be spared from active units to teach at those institutions. It didn't help that the Emperor didn't really want a competent military so long as he had one large enough to dominate the general population and so fragmented that he could play one faction off against another to keep himself in power.
@@silverjohn6037 Your explanation does make a lot of sense but in a way it was similiar to what I was thinking. I probably would’ve argued about the lack of pilots but it currently 3 am and my brain isn’t functioning right now(as you can see in the way I write) so I don’t see a point in trying to argue anymore.
Trenches, like infantry, will never be outdated. They are a limited use tactic, but not useless. One of the oldest weapons known to man, a sharp object, is not outdated.
I'm not sure you are right, the point of this video is to show that when there are breaks in the chain of command, complacency in leadership, and the lack of checks and balances, tactics are often employed that are ineffective and lead to unnecessary loss of life, and in this instance the ill convinced tactic used was trench warfare. An out of date, bloody fighting style that does not take advantage of superior technology or joint military capabilities. Good day sir
What they hell do you mean with "limited use".
Trenches are a CRUTIAL part in the current war in Ukraine... They are THE defensive position. Trenches will ALWAYS be useful.
@@paultec9182 I said limited use because they are immobile. You can outmaneuver trenches. And please read the rest of the comment.
@@Arkancide What's your point? You can also disable a tank or IFV... But the rest of your comment holds true...
@@paultec9182 I think we might have a language issue here. I'll clarify: Trenches are useful and good and will never be outdated. However, like all tactics, they do have limits to their use.
That's the crux of my point, the central idea of the statement.
Trench warfare is by no means outdated. The star wars universe lacks... Sensible military vehicles and weapons as a rule of thumb so the humble shovel will get you a lot further than an AT-AT if you're facing an enemy that will not fold in the face of attack. Trenches are an infantryman's best friend, you will invalidate all but the most precise of weapons with one simple trick... Even an orbital bombardment would essentially need to scorch every inch of land to make a trench system become obselete
Naw just drop an asteroid on them like the Asteroid X57 in Mass Effect 1.
it's not the Trench the problem, as said by many they are still used and were also used well before WWI...the problem with WWI and Mimban trench is that unlike the previous one they are basically permanent structure
It will always be easier to dig a hole than to build a fortress.
Trench Warfare won’t totally go away and is part of our warfare toolbox. Even in recent memory, trench warfare was seen during the Iran-Iraq War during the 80s.
Even in Ukraine, they use them as small defenses
@@user-si5vp6ud1w The Korean war also comes to mind. Slit trenches were also used extensively in WW2.
and in the curtain fighting in Ukraine, Its one of those types of warfare that will never go away. because it is so effective at what it does.
Al-Qaeda used CAVES, during the War on Terror, which made them hard to dislodge from their positions, even for America's military supremacy. Caves aren't exactly trenches, but... They kinda are...
It is a misconception that trench warfare in ww1 is a overall military doctrine
Diging trench is a common infantry practice since i dont know 1600?
At the begining of ww1 the offensive was a lightning infantry advance, wide spread trench line was only made after the german army was halted and forced to dig in, both side dont have strenght to launch an offensive thus dig in, but due to no breakthrought was made both side dug up an entire trench line all across the front
In WW2 the blitzkreig tactic rely of surprise , initiative and armored unit over the enemy, it worked well in france and early babarossa, giving enemy no time to dig up trench in responce
But it didnt phrased out, a major trench line was construct during battle of moscow effectivrly halt the german attack, during kursk soviet force also built a large trench network
Many other battle also consist of trench, but the nature of ww2 that rely of constant attack with tanks make them unable to construct a large ww1 trench style
And when the effectiveness or armored unit was countered by a newer anti tank system, armored offensive became less and less effectuve result in large trench network yet again,
Until we manage to make a new tank unit which is cheap and dont need manpower to operate the battle will be this way
6:40 "Tarkin became one of the best recruiters for the rebel alliance"
Ngl I laughed hard at that one 😂
Right? 😅🤣😅🤣 Facts are facts!
I recall something about the Battle of Mimban being a horrifying meatgrinder on purpose. Basically, it was a place to dump Clone Wars veterans who weren't deemed loyal enough to the New Order
This? This is a sensible reason. The Empire is NOT incompetent. If they're doing something, there's a reason for it. Stupendously evil yes, but not stupid.
yeah this seems most sense
@@TheJarric Always remember, if the Empire seems unreasonably, stupidly evil for no good reason, Evil Deranged Space Wizard...
Let's talk about how they cut out so many scenes in solo especially the battle on mimban. Made you feel bad for the imperial army mud trooper. Regular soldiers not storm troopers
Yeah! I always loved that part of the movie and I wanted WAY MORE of it! It reminded us of the WAR part of Star Wars!
Also dont forget the original concept art for the mud troopers which looked sick af
I really don’t know why we’re saying trench warfare is “outdated”.
Literally the war in Ukrainian is primarily being fought by men in entrenched positions and foxholes and actual similar positions to WW1 trenches.
Why? Because they work.
The reason we’re more accustomed to “Modern” warfare being all about the manoeuvre and attack is due to how we’ve fought modern conflicts like Nam, Iraq and Afghan.
Thing is, those ain’t the same conflicts you’ll run into consistently.
We are facing a quite inferior enemy who uses guerrilla tactics to fight.
However, find an enemy with the firepower to make a stand and hold you to your point… well? Do you retreat or stand around with your wangs out just waiting for an opening?
No, you hunker down and build up positions to protect oneself until either a offensive is required, or your siege pays off.
The issue, as pointed out in this video, is that trench warfare falls apart (or at least should) when one side has complete air supremacy and a massive artillery advantage. The Mimbanese are not an equal or near-equal to the Imperial Army in firepower and manpower. The Empire is the only side in that conflict that has aircraft, and the only side that has capital ships in orbit.
@@RedXlV the entire reason of trench warfare to decrease the effectivness of artillery tho, as many has point out, if you make an actual trench strong and deep enough you could decrease the damage done by artillery up to 90%
Even "modern" conflicts have their own trenches.
The fighting positions in Vietnam-era combat outposts were often dug into the ground, and the ever-present Hesco barrier is just a newer way to put a ton of dirt between you and somewhere where a mortar might hit (it's a sort of *reverse trench* if you will).
We've gotten better and not getting *stuck* in trenches for months or years at a time, but the concept of trenches and earthworks still have a place.
@@imreallynoob8311 That works fine against terrestrial artillery. In a sci-fi setting like Star Wars, though, it's going to be rather difficult to make trenches effective against *orbital* artillery. A Star Destroyer can just fire straight down into any trenches.
I think the whole situation is unrealistic, the mimbanies are not of equal strength to the imperials in either numbers or technology, so why didn't the imperials use speed and armor to render the trenches useless? Looking at the mimbanies atire, weaponry, and numbers coupled with the fact that they have a knowledge of their own planet, it would make more sense if they were a gurilla force
I'm guessing the mimbam conflict in particular devolved into trench warfare is because it's a backwater world the empire doesn't want to waste many resources on. A few army divisions with maybe one or two clone wars era capital ships, that's it. And probably second rate army divisions at that. The empire isn't wasting a stormtrooper legion or a star destroyer's worth of material to quell some backwater rebellion when there are better uses of the resources involved.
Actually, Mimban was very rich in a variety of precious metals and minerals, particularly hyperbaride. If the Empire really didn’t want to put any effort into it, then they would’ve glassed the surface and moved on to another planet instead of attempting to occupy the world.
Why not slap on cheap ass ion engines to an asteroids and slam it at the planet? Conflict ended.
@@josephstalin839 Sure, if you want to rule over an asteroid field or at best an apocalyptic wasteland. It's the same reason orbital bombardment isn't used as the be all end all of any space conflict.
@@josephstalin839 same reason dropping nukes is a terrible idea. The majority of conflicts are the result of land grabs and scarcity of natural resources. So who would want to have a brand new territory that's irradiated?
I think an additional reason for the trench warfare on Mimban is that it’s purposely designed to inflict high casualties on not just the mimbanese but imperial forces as well as a form of punishment or fear tactic for imperial dissidents and rogues while stormtroopers are there not just as additional units but as enforcers to keep the rest of the army personnel in line. That if there was any imperials who weren’t falling in line they would be sent there in hopes of dying while at the same time helping eliminate enemy combatants. As we see with solo for being too much of a rogue, which could be perceived as a threat by the empire in keeping order, being sent to mimban. That by imposing trench warfare you knock 2 birds with one stone, kill off any imperials that don’t fit in that could possibly be a future threat and kill off any mimbanese enemies in one action.
I think this is a genius theory, that wasn't supposed in the video, makes complete sense
Its the old Fighting the last war problem. Same thing happened in the change up to republics military doctrine when they became the empire, switching from venator carrier based fleets to Imperial class star destroyer ones
Counterargument: the seeming incompetence was intentional, and accomplished two of Palpatine's strategic goals.
First, as you pointed out, the incompetence of the Empire led to massive amounts of needless suffering galaxy-wide at the same time when the behemoth features of the Imperial military caused widespread fear. Fear, anger, hate, suffering -- it all fed into saturating the Dark Side with power and keeping any Light Side force users weak and ineffectual.
Second, let us not forget that while Sidious had indeed rebranded the Republic as the Empire no one would ever really think of it as a Sith empire like those of old. The Galactic Empire was still fundamentally the Republic in many, many ways -- bleeding that out of it over time, changing the fundamental identity and self-concept of the largest galactic governing body, would take more than just 40-odd years and crushing rebellion after rebellion. In a way, the Empire was never really Sidious' empire -- since he planned to live forever, it's reasonable to assume he planned to grind down the Empire down to its most useful components and then, when he had satisfied himself in mastering all the secrets of the Dark Side, rebuild it from the ground up as a true Sith dominion.
Add to the fact that in all likelihood the Galaxy had no idea of their being Sith Empires of the past, which would have been more akin to fantastical tales of legend rather than actual things. Partly due to the passage of time warping the perception of history. But also due in part no doubt to the Jedi having some concern's of people knowing about the Sith and how they operated, might decide to use such teachings (if they can find any that is) to try and get some power for themselves and all of a sudden, boom new Sith outside of the Rule of Two that Darth Bane had established. Of course such Sith would likely be more like the old Sith, and likely very weak in overall ability. But most people also thought not much about the Jedi aside from what stories there were. It's easy to forget but the Jedi and Sith at large were more akin to myths to your average person of the Galaxy than actual beings that wielded the sort of power such stories claimed they have. And even if you told a person how real such things were, unless you had an actual Force User demonstrate such powers firsthand, they aren't likely to believe you all that much. And I think that is part of what Palpatine took advantage of when it came to getting rid of the Jedi. Because most people only really knew of them from what other's had said, and even that wasn't much of a common thing, and the Sith were all but gone to the Galaxy, as far as they would think a Sith is merely another type of Jedi. Plenty of stories make note of that fact, in particular the Old Republic games where the Jedi Civil War was thought to merely be a conflict between Jedi, rather than between Jedi and Sith. The fact said Sith were former Jedi didn't really make it easier to distinguish them as anything other than another sort of Jedi. And this is during the Old Republic Era mind you. Imagine how it would be in the Era the Movies take place in? But yeah, I get what you are saying about Sidious having a plan to break the Empire down after enough time and remake it in his own image.
Excuse me, but if trenches are good enough for Krieg then they’re good enough for the Empire.
In life, war. In death, peace. In life, shame. In death, atonement
Happy gas mask noises
In Tarkin's defense, he was extremely competent before the Empire, and his methods worked for years.
Then he befriended Palpatine.
Palpatine would erode anything to keep others subdued, and himself in power.
Tarkins whole deal was seeing his own sectors problems, the separatists crisis, and the clone wars and realizing the empire needed major fire power to deter anyone from ever fighting them to begin with. from the POV of people outside the Sith order. The republic got really lucky in surviving the CIS war effort for years and then the good fortune of the CIS armies and fleets shutting down.
Yeah, this is what I hate about anti-Tarkinites.
They crow on and on about "MuH iNEfFecTuAl!" but fail to remember that Tarkin was an accomplished miltary commander in the Clone Wars.
Sure his Doctrine failed, but to be fair, I don't really think ANY faction was prepared for the full flexibility and varied tactics of the Rebel Alliance.
But even if that were true, what could Tarkin even do about it? We all talk about how Palpatine was the real problem, killing Imperial Officers over the most minor slip-ups, how could Tarkin even manage go convince Palps to not build the Death Star?
Ultimately Tarkin just did what he was ordered, which in the miltary is EXACTLY what you're supposed to do. He's honestly less responsible for the Empire's failure than most give credit for.
@@Eye_Of_Odin978 The Death star was a poor choice but the general idea of displaying imperial power to all regions of the galaxy as a means of helping to establish order is not bad in of itself. His doctrine forgets the need to have a proper way of backing up those fears with a decently rounded military force.
The other side of the coin is yeah. Tarkins a military dude and he's ultimately subserviently to the civilian side of the empire which is the emperor. And the Emperor is an increasingly overconfident space wizard.
Death Korps of Krieg: "Bunch of amateurs. Let's show you how it's done! Fix bayonets but don't stop the artillery!"
Ironically the Imperium suffers from the same issues, plus others.
@@justinthompson6364 Yet Imperiun is still standing for 10,000 years while the Empire fell within a decade and crumbled.
It’s still standing cause gw wants it to in reality could have crumbled withen a hundred years if it was real
@@rexlumontad5644 Well, yeah. Citizens of the Imperium don't remember a better time, and even if they did conditions in 40k favor established powers over insurgencies much more than in the SW galaxy. And the Imperium's outside opposition is no more organized than it is.
@@stratecal796 Imperium stood strong and held out the longest thanks to the power and awesomeness of the Man-Emperor of Mankind, Golden Banana Boys/Custodes, Mechanicus, Ecclesiarchy and thousands of Space Marine Chapters and billions of Guardsmen from many Imperial worlds.
Grand Admiral Thrawn would facepalm at the Galactic Empire's outdated tactics and decided to rectify them himself.
Until the corrupt bureaucracy of the Empire shuts him out because he isn't good at playing politics.
He was an anomaly in that system. Palpatine kept him close because he knew if Thrawn figured out how bad the Imperial EVERYTHING (military, government, etc, etc) he'd jump ship to the Rebellion and take the Chiss with him. Palpatine knew he wouldn't be able to stand against both.
@@JediTev It would have been really interesting to see Thrawn interact with Mon Mothma, Dodonna and the leaders and key figures of Rebel Alliance like Luke, Leia and Han.
He had figured the empire would have a better chance against the vong. If the empire had used thrawns tactics instead of tarkins the empire might have won
I'm not sure how he'd change things that aren't the imperial navy or star fighter corp. Such as the imperial army or stormtrooper corp.
General Veers or General Romodi would be much better men to bring reform to ground based warfare for the empire than Thrawn in my opinion.
Yeah in star wars they have all this advanced technology, yet use WW1 or WW2 tactics.
The original films and a lot of content was inspired by WW1 and WW2 tactics and concepts.
@@roland_was_neverhere3777 yeah
Can’t go wrong with simple tactics man
Laughs in imperial guard from WH 40K launching mass assaults against enemy trenches despite living in the 41st millenium.
Big ships with analog computers from the '70's
Once again A. Xie proves himself a better political scientist than half the governments on earth.
Indeed.
Who is A. Xie?
@@valravnsshadow9422 Allen... the face of the channel. Read the desc
I think that trench warfare was used to weed out the weaker members of the Imperial Armed Forces. That and Palpatine thrived on any and all chaos that increased the dark side of the Force.
Just have one guy with a thing of binoculars and a radio then he could call orbital bombardments under the cities that are rebelling
Honestly, I suspect Palpatine preferred it this way, at least so long as all the rebel groups were ground-based and limited to single planets and thus unable to coordinate with each other. Inefficient tactics maximized the manpower devoted to the conflict, meaning that more soldiers are too busy fighting to get up to anything potentially seditious. And more casualties make the soldiers who survive more likely to hate the enemies of the Empire.
I want to see the Imperial Empire VS just a single solar system, but that solar system uses the most modern and efficient tactics and strategies possible while the Imperials continue with their goofy blitzkrieg
Most likely the imperial logistics network would be shredded and imperials would have to retreat
More likely it’l be hell for the empire, until they decide to simply base delta zero everything.
Exactly , the problem with the Empire is their orbitale superiority, it works as the nukes with the russians in our world, without them they would've ended at the end of the food chain. If confronted by heavy resistance, the impies simply can obliterate everything from the orbit, after all they don't have any moral scruples.
It's semi common in the 40k fandom to rewrite famous Star Wars battles with one of our own armies in the place of one side or the other.
It's ridiculous but so is the 40k fandom. The Emperor protects.
@@alessiodecarolis I mean its not dumb. It's actually extremely smart. Why fight on the ground when you can simply use you advanced sophisticated spaceship and destroy targets from orbit. Or if you have the range from a moon range (lunar distance) which is usually 384,399 kilometers away they aren’t touching you. GG no troops lost but the defenders lose everything and then you can mop them up.
This guy uses warhammer 40k as his computer background for a star wars video.
For those who are wondering. The soldier on his screen is from the Death Corp of Krieg with a lucius pattern lasgun (It looks like a lucius pattern.) With a walker on the right.
That’s kinda just something that happens with every futuristic empire in fiction, mainly because with the Star Wars galaxy, or 40 thousand years later, the tactics that would pop up by then are ones that we can’t begin to imagine unless we had a intergalactic war. So until now, we’re kinda stuck with all of the older more unbelievable types of combat
Just if you were wondering you can buy 12 munificent class star frigates and 150 vulture droids for the cost of a single isd
It's videos like this that confirm my belief that if the Empire found and invaded Earth, the only reason we would lose is because they have the highest of grounds and we can't really get to them. And that would only last for so long if we reverse engineer spacecraft from all the TIE's and dropships we shot down.
Also, I guess Palpatine wanted fighting to justify military funding so he wanted battles to continue even if the military could've easily won against a weaker opposition. Palpatine needed enemies to fight in the early galactic empire era so dragged these battles out.
This smacks of “Wag the Dog”.
Its actually really shows how competent General Veers and Darth Vader is; being able to capture Hoth under these political conditions
I am glad Alan regrown his signature beard back
I blame those dang dolphins for that shaved look
Maybe we can see the effectiveness of the clones in the battle of Umbara? They battle organics there.
Video Idea: Why wasn't chemical warfare used in star wars?
There were attempts during the clone wars by the separatist to create a bioweapons. The Empire also had their own virus called blackwing absolutely terrifying
@@GenerationTech Or maybe nukes?
@@pyeitme508 hey man, I’m pretty sure there are multiple cases in the legends lore where some minor factions used nuclear weapons
@@DAVIDMcDonald-uf2ep Yes I know but what about canon?
@@pyeitme508 I feel like the closest thing to nuclear weapons was used on the Battle of Malastar, which, did help win the battle in favour of the Republic, but, woke the Zillo Beast. Other than that, I think I remember hearing that Orbital Bombardment causes a lot more damage compared to a nuclear bomb.
Allan, I appreciate the pride you take in your videos, as well as the dedication to continually put out content. Thank you.
I was convinced you were about to go into a sponsorship segway for Ground News there at the end
What if palps just needed endless amounts of suffering?
Thanks for the video.
Authoritarian is one brain.
Democracy multiple brains.
“Two heads are better then one “
THE EMPIRE HAD ABANDONED TRENCH WARFARE BY THE TIME OF THE FILMS.
Also, it wasn't just the Empire. The Rebels used outdated trench tactics, too. By the time of the films, the Empire had completely abandoned trench tactics in favor of large vehicle assaults or close-knit Stormtrooper squads, while the Rebels had trenches with guns like they're expecting the Imps to go banzai-charging like morons, which they didn't. They just sent in the heavy armor instead and crushed the Rebels like they're nothing.
To be fair, Rebels were buying time for their transports and stuff to escape Hoth and knew they are gonna lose badly but fight and go down swinging anyway.
@@rexlumontad5644 Then trench warfare wasn't the way to do it. That only counters infantry assaults; the AT-ATs just shot their turrets and scattered the rebel infantry before deploying Stormtroopers. If it wasn't for Rogue Squadron's heroics, the Rebels would've been annihilated before they could escape.
@@HolyknightVader999 I am more surprised the Rebels don't bring out heavy anti-tank/walker weaponry and cannons when making the trench defense to buy time for the transports to escape.
The Rebel Alliance are stated to be "too well equipped" as mentioned in the meeting of Imperial military officers with Vader and Tarkin at the Death Star in A New Hope.
@@rexlumontad5644 The people involved with making the movie probably didn’t think that far.
There’s more likely then not no actual in-lore reason for it outside of maybe the imperial overestimating the power of the rebellion.
The problem is not trench warfare. That can be very useful as seen in today's Ukraine.
And in Star Wars the rebels used in on Hoth to slow down the Imperials so that the evacuation could take place.
The problem with trench warfare is that the Imperial Army should never have used it against an inferior force like the Mimbanese. And if the Imperial Army got stuck, they should've called the Imperial Navy to wipe the Mimbanese out.
Great video. Also perfectly shows why Thrawn was such an anomaly in the imperial military. And why the Empire’s most competent officer was playing his own game, serving the empire to get information to take back to the Chiss
Glad I caught this for my early lunch, always appreciate a good video while I eat quickly.
Good vid once again Prof Allen 👌
"All warfare is based on deception "
Sun Ztu
Good question!
Honestly, I think even in our universe, Trenches will never go away. We could be Halo UNSC or Star Wars Republic advanced and still trenches will be used in almost every major ground war.
There's another reason for Mimban specifically. That's a war fought by the imperial infantry with oversight from the storm troopers. Thanks to canon reference material we know that the army (well at least their infantry) was created by just pooling all the non-clone auxilliaries the empire had no real use for anymore. Almost all the actual members detailed are failures and penal postings from other branches. It's a trash heap for the meat grinder that's particularly cheap and easily available. Also the conditions on Mimban allegedly didn't really allow for orbital or air strikes.
There's another issue here though. Planetary and base shield generators make fortifying really easy and can render bombardment of any kind rather useless. Having to set up for asymetric warfare, there's no near equl opponent, the empire can expect digging in to be a popular strategy for their opponents. This really only leaves siege (which can mean trench warfare) or ground assault as options. Both are costly, but the former can be done with rather disposable conscripts.
Good Video ...
If I’m not mistaken, the lore reason why the Empire decided to embark on a ground campaign against Mimban was because the Mimbanese were a subterranean species that evolved to live in the dark of the underground. Air support and aerial bombardments aren’t going to do anything against a planet of people living like dwarves under their mountains, and we saw in Solo how blacked out with smog the atmosphere was on Mimban, adding another advantage to the locals. They’d obviously have to come out of the underground to fight the Imperials and prevent them from establishing military installations, but when they’re not fighting, the empire can’t necessarily bombard their cities due to them being beneath the surface
Palpatine seemed to set up the imperial military in a similar fashion to the Soviet union. In the Soviet army and in the Soviet Navy, there were political Commissars that had limited military training and extensive political, indoctrination training. Commissars could take command of individual units if the unit commander was suspected of disloyalty. Or if the unit commander was under performing. In both military’s indoctrination is more important than creativity.
Could you do a video ranking/recommending the best star wars books/comics to read?
Can we just take a second to realize how well made and perfectly stated these videos are? Put this man in the senate
Its also important to remember that (at least in Legends, I don't know about canon) Palpatine used battle meditation and if he genuinely needed a win out of something he could just think really hard at his guys and they would fight better. If Palpatine considered a victory on Mimban important he could have just traveled there, sat down with a cup of tea, and the Imperial Army would have broken the organized resistance. They would still have had to deal with an underground and disorganized one, but less trench warfare.
Great video. I always thought it was interesting that the Empire was kind of incompetent to reflect how ineffective authoritarian governments are. I think Palpatine thrived on the chaos he created during the Clone Wars and just kept conflicts going to justify his politics.
I totally disagree with the statement that trenches and trench fighting is not modern or bad, it's the opposite. Trenches and good fortifications are one of the best tactics to keep your man alive on a modern battlefield with all these pretty destructive and deadly weapons like bombs, artillery shells, tank shells, mortars and so on. Because these trenches provide excellent cover and if the soldiers would be in the open, they die in maases, so actually i would say, that the Empire did a lo for their soldiers, when they put their men in these trenches. Also Mobile Warfare and Combined arms do not exclude trenches and fortification and judging form the Solo Movie clips, they have combined arms, you see that AT-ST getting deployed from air, which means they have Air and Tank support. Love your vids :D
Uncannily how the Empires inner workings reminds me of 3 empires in the last century.
It’s not like brains and competence are requirements for Stormtroopers.
No matter how advanced the technology gets you can’t hold ground without entrenched infantry.
Allen, as a retired Marine and former senior instructor at Quantico Officer training I find you extremely well read. You have a Command and Staff or War College level education. I wanted to ask what is you military background or what was your inspiration and guide to your studies.
I get the subtle impression you recently watched one or more of Perun's videos on the war in Ukraine. And if not, you definitely should. As you note, Russia's behavior and failures bear a striking resemblance to those of the Galactic Empire, and Perun's videos are of peerless quality.
Will it be more successful if Palpatine replaced liberal democracy with majoritarian democracy instead of authoritarian regime? After all, it will be the the majority of the society itself that have powers And this can be easily lead to the peoples themselves become the tyrants of their own society. And as everyone, ranging from the members of the Imperial Senate to the Imperial military, is preoccupied with arguging with each other about how to do this or when to do that, Palpatine will be able to retreat into seclusion and becoming just a figureheard while studying the secrets and the arts of the Dark Side with no interruption.
Issue is that, sith always want absolute power, and sidious was additionally expecting the cosmic force to make move against him, it is main reason of creation of the death star, he want personal fortress wich can take care about absolutelly everything wich comisc force can throw at it, also galactic republic doesn't have any checks and balances against majority tyranny, indeed it was how they function from a very long time, core worlds are ecumenopolises, then they have the highest population, and they absolutely dominate senate, because majority have absolute power, republic could be already considered majoritarian democracy, because not matter what government would do, core worlds will always have the most votes, and this how senator is elected is entirely in the power of an planetary government, wich means that they doesn't even need to be democratic, if planetary government is monarchy or oligarchy it is fully allowed to simply choose a senator without bothering about population. It also doesn't work better in sectors, because they the most probably just count ammount of people living on planets "voicing" for some senator and take this one with the most, republic was already majoritarian democracy, and it is why it was so flawed.
@@marcelgrabowski5939 The Republic wasn't a majoritarian democracy at all. Yes, some of the Core Worlds were ecumenopolises (though far from all of them), and yes, the Core dominated the Senate for most of its history, but these two facts aren't really connected. The Core Worlds had extra power in the Senate because they joined the Republic early, and refused to give up their planetary senators when the Republic switched to one senator per sector. From there it was a self-perpetuating cycle. Population never had anything to do with it. A world like Chandrila had more power than one like Bonadan, even though the later had nearly 10 times the population.
The democratic nature of the Republic is further undermined by what you said about the fact planets can elect their senators in whatever way they want. They can put the decision in the hands of the people, but often don't, or don't do so directly. The Republic is repeatedly called a democracy in the lore. I've recently concluded they just mean something different by that word, than contemporary, western, liberals do.
You are definitely right about there not being any checks on the Senate's power, though. They seem to be able to unilaterally amend their own constitution, without the involvement of individual planetary governments, or any outside body, which is definitely a bad idea. Especially since it lets them just vote for an empire, essentially putting them out of business.
@@dodopod Then it is based on planets, not sector population? And they just.. refuse? Ok, well, in this point of history the core was effectivelly the mose developed part of the republic, and still is, then it is believable that they can make some eternal privilage for themselves. Thanks for info about how it works.
Been waiting for this video. I remember watching the tactics in Ukraine switch to trench warfare and thinking back to your first video about trench warfare in Star Wars and why it's tried and true. It's always good to see how Star Wars parallels with our own history and why some strategies just ain't broke.
>outdated tactics that were used "long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away" love the video tho!
What dooms empires, whether they're called democracies or dictatorships, is putting different peoples with incompatible worldviews into the same state following the same laws. You can get by with federalism and regional autonomy, letting populations live as they wish, but sooner or later someone decides they know better and imposes his will by force.
Then it's only a matter of time before that large cosmopolitan empire becomes a bunch of small homogenous nation states. The only question is whether the map will be redrawn in ink or blood, and how much. Brute force can hold things together temporarily, but sooner or later, whoever has the boot on his neck will find the strength to stand up.
Poland didn't exist as a nation-state for centuries, but managed to rise from the ashes. Same for Ireland, and most of the old Hapsburg lands. A more relevant example, given the Davos crowd's decision to 'elect a new people,' would be Spain.
Palpatine is like the new canon Thrawn but opposite.
Death Korps of Krieg in the background: *Chuckles*
I can't stop looking at the broken rex helmet in the back
You’d think at some point, the Empire would have said “Screw it, their defiance makes us look bad, just obliterate the surface from orbit”
In some cases they did use orbital bombardment.
clone wars cartoon series show trench warfare during republic times with clone troopers
technicly tranch warfare isn't outdayted since star wars is A LONG TIME AGO in a galagy far far away
Read splinter of a minds eye by Alan Dean foster, it's the first mission of commander Luke sky walker along with lia after they are stranded planet mimban by accident it takes place very soon after the death star is destroyed
video idea: rebel/imperial/republic/separatist military structure and how it's organized on the smaller scale (how many clones make up a company, how many rebels in a squad, roles of imperial battalions, command hierarchy etc.) similar to the videos the youtube channel "Battle Order" make but starwars
Because it be that way sometimes
Star Wars would’ve ended so quickly if precision air support was a thing
4:41
That is very funny.
That part about information overload makes me think someones been listening to vlad vexler😅
Cause “quantity over quality” doesn’t usually equal to tactics being up to date.
I think it's funny that despite being the Galaxy's best con artist Palpatine is really incompetent if he realized before taking over the republic I think he would of kept Dooku alive as this is the stuff Dooku wanted to handle
I think to some extent warfare tactics werent very developed because there was essentially nobody in the Galaxy with experience in conventional large scale warfare at the beginning of the Empire's reign as the clone wars had been fought by Jedi, Clones and Droids rather than normal people and before that had been 1000 years of relative peace. We know everything we do about warfare in the real world because we had a couple massive wars about 80-100 years ago and we've had quite a few minor wars since then and yet even now that the war in going on in Ukraine the military is learning how modern conventional warfare works because there sort of wasn't a modern conventional war before this one
The Galactic Empire needed Thrawn as leader of it all from day one period…
I thought it happened long long ago in a galaxy far far away… it can’t be outdated if it hadn’t happened yet
But didn’t star wars take place a long time ago? Wouldn’t ww1 trench warfare be outdated?
I think this explains why tarkin wanted the clones out of the empire. Even the average clone received tactical training in the latest version of combat history. In one comic tarkin imagines himself fighting a soldier only with a knife like some kid’s fantasy. He wanted the military to be the way he wanted it and because of that the rebels would win in battles the empire would never have lost if they had competent leaders and a well trained fighting force. Not fanatics and those who bought their way up the ranks.
Isn't Allen a vet or ex-military? Thought there was someone at gent tech with that background, maybe I'm way confused
I do wonder, are there any examples of CIS droid armies just, wiping the floor with the clones, because they'd been, cut out from the Sith controlled CIS, and just left to do their thing?
Not actually outdated, Ukraine is currently experiencing a situation reminiscent of WWI. The only difference lies in the presence of more modern weapons and drones dropping bombs on the trenches and less fodder cannon tactics. I believe that the style of warfare depends heavily on the country's terrain; in flat places like Ukraine, trench warfare will always be viable.
Is trench warfare really outdated when even in our world it has seen a big return in current conflicts? 🤔
I think that this is just a rhetorical question but just in case :
The problem of this question is that when we think to "Trench warfare" we think to WWI assaults, and when we think to WWI assaults we actually think to streotypical 1915 attacks on the western front which were not representive of trench warfare in 1916 or 1917 or 1918 or in other conflicts, if we consider this, trench warfare is indeed totally obsolete for the attacker, or more precisely : it has never been really effective. But in reality trench warfare is a kind of warfare that is not decided by generals but imposes itself to the HQ since it is a defensive warfare. So to ask this question is to ask whether taking a defensive state is obsolete, which the answer is no since it totally depends on your situation.
@@polakskia6604 you’re waffling tbh
@@lucianraphael9527 I just wanted to point out that "Trench warfare" is just like "Blitzkrieg", a name for a result rather than a true doctrine or tactic or strategy so it can not be considered as obsolete since nobody can decide to "use" blitzkrieg or trench warfare tactics (because it is too vague). But I agree that maybe I have not explained my point the simplest way possible.
@@polakskia6604 thank you for explaining your reasoning and I do agree for the most part. Though, in areas of the current conflict where the front hasnt moved much it has resulted in the effect of trench warfare resurfacing in places.
The problem with autocratic governments is how dependant they are on the qualities of the ruler.
In the Empire's case, they low-rolled and got a psychopathic mage. Had it instead had a Trajan or a Hadrian to rule it, it would been an effective and glorious machine that would have actually brought peace, freedom, justice and security to the galaxy.
Corruption isn't a result of autoctatic power, it's a consequence of power. Democracies are more often than not corrupt and also produce their own downfalls.
The corruption of the end of the Roman republic caused the civil wars to happen and from those Augustus emerged, pacified the Empire and... Gave up his powers. Until shit very quickly hit the fan again and the senate gave him back his powers. This occured a couple times too. If my memory serves me right, he ruled for 50 years and brought greatness to Rome. He after all had found Rome a city of bricks and left it a city of marble.
Now, Caesar probably would have achieved a similar result, if corrupt, power-hungry senators didn't break their vows and commit a sacrilegious murder.
Just look at our the West's "democracies". They're all lead by corrupt people pushing the developped world towards its own destruction. Look at how they all constantly use WEF rhetoric like the "build back better" or "great reset" nonsenses.
But back to Star Wars.
The Empire was corrupt to that extent because Palpatine liked it that way. He did nothing to quell it.
He had the power to put in place anti-corruption institutions, but he didn't. He could have purged the flagornous incompetents, but he didn't.
He rose to power with an unbeatable and absolutely loyal army. Nothing could have prevented him to become a wise and benevolent ruler that made the lives of his people better and kept chaos at bay. But he didn't, because he was not an Aurelian or a Marcus Aurelius. Not even a Majorian. No, he was a psychopathic mage and the Empire was exactly how he wanted it to be.
If you want an in-universe comparison, look at how Thrawn and Pallaeon's empires fared. The people there enjoyed high standards of living, corruption was minimal and they weren't seen as tyrants, even outside of their borders. Why was that? Because they were lead by virtuous men who used their power to encourage others to be virtuous.
*Trenches work until a drone drops a bomb on your head*
And yes they have shields but in a war both sides will strike there resources and ways they can keep the war going so there’s going to be time where you won’t have energy to keep a shield running or not enough shield generators etc
Remember, sometimes you have to crack open the old infantry manuals and dig a hole.
One rationalization on why the empire is the way it is is that, you can argue that they simply prepared for the last war. The clone war in essence was a predominantly infantry focused conflict with limited mechanization and motorization (in relative to the massive formations of on foot infantry), the imperial army being styled after the clone army was also an infantry focused army whose primary fighting vehicles never move faster than walking pace. Both armies lacked the capacity for massed, rapid manoeuvre warfare, and in that environment it is very easy for trench warfare to develop. (the clone army had a stronger focus on airmobile, but given that a Lambda shuttle are almost as heavily armed as a LAAT and a Sentinel far more so, I cant see why they can't press them into the role)
For an empire to be good, only the emperor must be good.
For a democracy, thousands.
I really liked how Thrawn let his SSDmake a quarter role have 3 squadrons launch and the new republic expeditionairy fleet never saw he did so until they were almost ontop of the SSD who turned into the small expeditionaire fleet and the tie squadron made swiss cheese of them
Yeah Thrawn was the only capable fleet-commander the empire had
I gotta disagree. I don't think that Trench Warfare is outdated. This war (in the movie there was much context) was at a stalemate. I assumed this would no be because the Empire could utterly crush the enemy, but that they didn't see the planet as valuable enough to commit enough resources to conquer the planet so they continually threw the cheapest (to the empire) resource thet had, conscripts and volunteer Imperal Army Soldiers. For the Galactic Empire, life would be cheep and they could easily engage in a war of attrition where theyd eventually grind down their enemies to nothing.
What background music do you use?
3:25 where every Russian Tom, dick and hank can call for artillery if they see a bush twitch, no over arching command and control determining who gets priority, so the guns have to be reset and retargeted if a platoon was being overrrun by enemy forces gets to the radio a second later than some guys who saw what turned out to be a dog or something.
Cue the Curb your enthusiasm theme.
Mimbam (I might've misspelt it) should have looked like the battle of Hoth.
All things considered though, given how much later the battle of Hoth was, it might make sense that lessons were learned by the empire, it's just that it's such a bureaucratic mess it took like a decade to adjust basic tactics. Also, some other comments pointed out that the empire's officer core was likely lacking because it simply didn't exist before. Even during the clone wars, while you did have non-clone fleet commanders, it was only clone boots on the groundside (excluding jedi). With only a combination of high ranking commanders and low ranking foot troops, the early empire probably had to rely on stupid simple "move this line to that line" sort of tactics.
GT's point of view I also agree with. There's a surprising number of compounding reasons for the empire to stick itself in unnecessary attrition warfare.
Palpatine may've been playing clones and droids, but obi wan was the idiot who started it all.
trench warfare is beneficial when your enemy is like obi wan, obsessed with "the high ground".
Well considering that the common tactic in sw is foolishly running towards the enemy while blasting
trench warfare actually seem advanced in comparison
If both sides have machine guns and artillery (or equivalent) and don’t have corresponding air support and armored vehicles…you dig holes and post up. Whether it’s 1914, 2023 or 41,002