Is Masculinity In Crisis? | Mia Mulder
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- čas přidán 8. 02. 2023
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A short dip in a deep pool that is the crisis of masculinity. Is there one? I think so! But it's complicated, and it's not a problem that anyone can fix except for men. But why? And what might be some clues to the problem of masculinity?
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Regarding the boys/girls and parenting part. As a father-of-daughter it is a constant challenge to keep leaning into her interests rather than whatever society pushes on her. She likes chess and heavy machinery. To the extent she's creative, it's because she's an engineer. But society constantly pushes her towards other "girly" things to do. As a parent I need to help her develop her skills and talents and that's not always easy.
You also don’t want to shun her away from “girly” things. That can give the message that girly things are less than. Girls are celebrated for being into “boy” interests, but boys are not celebrated for being into “girl” things. We can still be reinforcing that girl = less than.
Good for you! As a little girl I wanted to do things like build model airplanes and play drums, and I was always discouraged by the adults in my life to not do those things because they were "boy" things. It was confusing and heartbreaking to be shut out of certain activities just because of my gender. I hope more little girls and boys out there have parents like you who don't try to gatekeep their interests based on arbitrary social categories.
I’m a girl and when i was younger i was into girly stuff like pink and my little pony. I’m 16 now and into science and computers. My parents encouraged my interests and never made me feel bad for liking girly stuff then or more masculine stuff now.
This is the reason that there are very less female engineers because girls are constantly pushed to be interested in girly things. And then they say that women are biologically not interested in stem.
Fatherhood: you're doing it right.
I'd just like to point out something: Alpha Wolf Guy is legit spending his entire career post-wolf research trying to correct that nonsense. The dude is on his own ass about his mistake more than anyone else on the planet I think
Also worth noting the study was done on wolves in captivity, who do in fact behave a lot like humans in captivity, e.g. prisoners. It's very telling that the manosphere wants to model all of society on the behavior of prison inmates fighting over scraps.
@@FrozEnbyWolf150 NPCs like yourselves do that
Well, that's because that's what science does.
Think of all the times creationists/flat-earthers point "that one time science was wrong"
Yeah... and who do you think discovered, and corrected those mistakes? SCIENCE! It's a self-correcting system...
were it not for him there would be no omegaverse, so,,
I've always been so confused by the people pushing the "violently dominant no emotions but anger terrified of being seen as feminine" sort of masculinity as an ideal. In the culture I was brought up in (rural American) those were the traits of weak and immature men. That was what "real men" (aka good husbands and fathers) were contrasted against. The guys with the traits I was raised to admire and emulate are thriving in the modern culture.
The problem is these guys idea of masculinity is based off of a debunked study on captive wolves. It is not a natural state for wolves let alone men. I mean think about it you lock up wolves in a cage with other wolves they are not familiar with and a human sitting on the other side of the bars taking notes and it is only logical that they will be afraid, insecure and aggressive almost to the point of paranoia. If they had based their ideals of masculinity on a human equivalent it would have been the culture in a supermax prison and the only difference would be they would think that non-consensual homosexuality is the height of masculinity as well.
@@FakeSchrodingersCat it's not even a model that works with primapes who are our closest relatives. Studies on chimps show that the most over the top aggressive males are not the most successful in the mateing game. In fact the constant stress they bring to individuals around them meant females they mated with were more likely to be poor parents and to spontaneously abort pregnancies. it was males who provided support for females and their offspring that fared better reproductively and that makes sense. Turns out running around screaming and bullying people is something everyone actively dislikes.
its not confusing once you realize men like that are easy to control
I pretty much came to the same conclusion myself as a teenager. Am I really living up to the independent, critical thinking, self confident example my dad set if I pick my coffee or cocktail based on if people think I'm a real man? No, so I drink my PSL and fruity drinks like a real man would.
IKR. As if I’m gonna drink an old fashioned or a straight whiskey just because someone else might judge me. Give me the fruitiest drink on the menu _immediately._
It speaks to a pretty weak sense of masculinity that someone can feel like it’s threatened by a colorful drink.
Damn, that’s the example your dad set?
My dad argues over petty crap and cheats on all of his girlfriends
I'm cis masculine man and I have always hated competitive games and loved collaborative games. I used to play with girls and the few other boys like me on the playground and never with the mass of boys playing football. I definitely think it is a lot of cultural thing to be competitive than a biological thing.
This was really comforting to read. Competitive games always bring out the worst in me, it’s not an activity I enjoy very much
I think a lot of competitive games can be returned to healthier places. Football (flag or tag, mind you) can be a blast even for an uncoordinated goon like me if everyone's just playing because it's something to do in the afternoons.
Totally...but adding a "P" to "play" would change the whole tone of the second sentence.
@@MrLeafeater oh god! Woops! Lol didn't catch that lol
@@dustind4694 Interestingly, as kids in the early 60s, we (neighbours) played a mixed gender game, where we'd try and sneak up on each other and shoot each other. The rules were, if you got shot, you had to lie down and count to thirty with your eyes closed. then you rejoined the game. Hid behind trees, climbed trees, under bushes, a combination of hiding and stalking. No one "won". Because everyone got up after 30 seconds. We all used toy guns, or sticks, or whatever as "weapons". It didn't feel violent, and 2/3rd of the kids were girls. Simple hide and seek is also fun, where the goal is to not be found, and sneak up on a "base", though some kids are better than others.
5:20 I watched Matt Walsh one time and I knew right then that I had to escape masculinity at all costs
I kind of love the irony of Matt Walsh creating more GNC and trans people every time he opens his mouth.
@@FrozEnbyWolf150 creating? so its a choice by weak minded trash LUL
youre a NPC
@@thoticcusprime9309 that’s exactly what an NPC would say
@@IAmNumber4000 False again, stupid creatures like yourself always try to parrot my words when you have no argument, go be irrelevant worhtless human
I love it when Hbomberguy makes an appearance in other people's works. He somehow publishes an average of two videos a year, with each one somehow longer than the last. I wouldn't even be surprised if his next video comes out a year from now and is 6 hours long
why Hbomberguy is a guy and here’s why: Literally Seven Hours
On the History of Mario's Accent
by Hbomberguy
- 10:00:00
Hbomberguy is a male feminist twerp.
Extrapolating from this point, we will eventually reach the optimal Hbomberguy Video Length where every year he releases a video that is a year long.
In response to complaints about his slow release schedule, he opts to do a video on a shorter topic.
The resulting video is 12 hours long.
(some rabbit holes go DEEP)
One of the issues is that the people saying there is a crisis in masculinity is that they have a narrowly defined definition of masculinity that only includes people in what many would consider traditional masculine roles. When they think of masculinity, they're usually thinking of spec ops veterans who write books on discipline and become motivational speakers, like Jocko "Navy SEAL, Extreme Ownership author" Willink or David "life is suffering" Goggins.
what's 'traditional' about any of that, exactly? Also 'life is suffering' is originally the dictum of a somewhat well-known spiritual patriarch called the Buddha, existence is 'dukkha' to use the Sanskrit
@@helvete_ingres4717 In that sense, it'd be clearer to specify that Goggins' commentary speaks more to the western ideas surrounding pain and discomfort than the eastern ideas surrounding suffering.
As a quick example,I would be very surprised to hear a Buddhist use the phrase, "on the other side of suffering" because it is practically as inherent to life as respiration, and yet it is language that he employs regularly.
#noelephantseals
Just had to throw that out there because you mentioned SEAL's :p
But I agree, that's exactly what annoys me about the whole conversation about masculinity supposedly being under fire.
I think it boils down to idiots thinking that their particular masculinity (being macho and never thinking about your emotions or never showing empathy except when you're doing "cool stuff with the bro's") is no longer valued and a person is considered stronger when they deal with their emotions in a healthy way instead and that in that area there is no longer a distinction between men and women. I think it's just that macho's don't want sensitive men to be considered stronger and better adapted to deal with current society and the future.
I think to them it's like having spent your entire life learning how to bake a bread only to open a bakery next to a skinny dude with 10 robots and 100 times the customers and fun and finding out that maybe it would've been better to learn about computers and having people skills. And instead of admitting that they just grow bitter and find other baker bro's to be salty with and spend the rest of your days posting mean memes about skinny happy people being the destruction of society and feeling validated because you're not the only stupid idiot wasting time on something destructive while reinforcing the idea that not adapting is better somehow.
@Malhadado Epígono | Daybreak I believe what's 'sad' is invoking..your dad(?) to deride a youtube comment whilst offering nothing of value whatsoever. Strange that you can claim Buddhism is 'not about' the four noble truths - it very much is about those almost more than anything else. Why bother typing out such a worthless comment? No one gives a shit about you or your dad
@@helvete_ingres4717 A lot of people in Western countries view masculinity through physical prowess and dominating others. Combine this with the military worship in American culture and you start to understand why so many people view veterans of special operations forces in the military as the pinnacle of masculinity. It's also very unhealthy for the ideal role model of men to be military units whose job is going into other countries to break laws with impunity.
As a young male who nearly went down the sort of Andrew tate fan/alt right pipeline a couple years back, I am so damn glad that people on youtube like Mia helped me not go down that God awful path. I hope we can together stop this thing going on of the upticks in angry young men trying their damndest to be all masculine
So you gone down the feminist manhate pipeline instead.
@@misterpinkandyellow74 chill out dude.
@@MatthewOstergren I am chill, I enjoy calling people out.
@@misterpinkandyellow74you know men can live their lives without buying into some kind of ideological identity sold to them by a content creator, right?
@@misterpinkandyellow74 did you watch the video or just come to try fight in the comments? :v
I just realize that there's a perfectly valid reason to not want to drink sugary drinks, namely that it's unhealthy, but they don't use that because wanting to be healthy is also considered feminine for some reason 😂
Western (American) deserts are way overly sweet. I don't eat/drink them not because I'm an alpha male, but because they're gross.
@@mariusvanc yeah, sweets and especially beverages are way way too sweet for me to enjoy, it kinda just hurts my throat. I only have the occasional sweet tea, but I still think it would taste better with half the added sugar, I can barely taste the actual tea
When I was younger I definitely felt the pressure to talk in a certain way, hide certain interests I had, prove I was intelligent and could win arguments. I definitely lived a lot less fulfilling of a life because I tried to hold myself to a certain standard. The intellectual side of toxic masculinity. It wasn't until I got into fitness, got in good shape, lost 110 lbs, when I became confidant in who I was and stopped needing to "win" every conversation.
Realizing I was bi certainly also helped to cure the toxic masculinity. I will say the rush of testosterone from getting in shape was making me go bald at the age of 23.
Which is why this comment is proudly sponsored by Keep-
Oh my god the Keeps reference killed me
Hmm, Keeps sells products for hair loss, one of which is finasteride. Which is an androgen blocker that is often used as feminizing HRT-- Oh no, the trans agenda!
OH HI ME!
Funnily enough as a woman with ambition I always tried to be exactly that as well. I disregarded feminity and valued masculinity very high, because I felt masculinity and success are intertwined enourmously. If I want to have status, I need to be bold, I need to be smart, I need to establish hierarchy and push others down. Today I don't have these traits anymore for the most part. Instead I embraced what some might call feminity and instead my job now consists of coaching teamwork, empathy, communication. My job now is to get rid of hierarchy, because I learned how much I actually am repulsed by it. This pressure that comes along with masculinity and therefore hierarchy. Having ambition doesn't mean that we have to build a human pyramid. I learned that this toxic thinking just put myself down. I am still very much ambitious but also very much a big defender of equality, that I don't want to take the lime light and that I love me some empathy and girly things as well. Success and masculinity don't map onto each other 100% and success and feminity are not mutually exclusive.
"I will say the rush of testosterone from getting in shape was making me go bald at the age of 23.
Which is why this comment is proudly sponsored by Keep-
"
Is that a joke or are you really that dumb? Are you going to promote no fap next?
Best example of modern healthy masculinity I've seen lately? Bandit from Bluey. I'm a dad with kids and I never thought I'd identify so much with a cartoon dog. Openly loves his spouse and his kids and puts effort into providing for not only their physical needs but also their emotional needs. Like anyone else, he is show getting frustrated and making mistakes, but owns up to those mistakes and tries to do better. Loves to play rugby with his friends but is also happy to spend a day "marooned" on a pretend island with his daughters. I like how it doesn't make the mistake of portraying him as the "bumbling dad" nor the "authoritarian patriarch" but just a person doing their best to take care of the people in his life and letting them take care of him too.
I'm raising boys and girls and honestly at the end of the day I treat them mostly the same: treat others like they'd like to be treated, try to sort out problems yourselves but also it's ok to ask for help, try to resolve conflicts with words but know how to protect yourself and others, don't do anything to someone without their express consent and try to be mindful of the feelings of others. As they get older I'll teach the boys that they'll probably be physically stronger than most girls and that they should recognize it and can be proud of it, but it also doesn't make them better or worse a person. To paraphrase MIa's statement: if someone is trying to tell you how you should be acting to fit their ideals, be suspicious of who that is really benefiting.
The coffee thing is so funny to me. I used to date a guy that it turned out had some pretty serious insecurities with masculinity. He told me he liked his coffee black. So one morning I made coffee, and brought him one - black, like i thought he liked it. I left the room for a bit, and when I came back, I CAUGHT him putting sugar in it, and it was like I caught him cheating or something. He started stammering something about, "Oh, well science says that you absorb the caffeine better if you have sugar with it!! So I have the first coffee of the day with sugar! I'm just trying to OPTIMIZE THE COFFEE! The rest of the day I drink it black!!!"
It was like he thought I would respect him less if I found out he had sugar in his coffee. And I was like... I literally could not care less if I tried.
you asked for a kind word so you get two;
i am so proud of you for letting yourself continue to be you even during the hard times
you have single-handedly changed my personal opinions on history nerds for the better
I'm a trans gal who spent a lot of time kinda forced into a role of a man. And wow... I write poems. Recently I looked into my old ones, from the time I used to live in a man role and... It's just basically perfect example of how someone who had role of a patriarchal man forced upon them. Back then I didn't understand feminism or patriarchy and writing poems was just a way to express my true feelings. Now when i see them... the change of perspective is like... wow...
And I'm of course still mad about the fact that i was basically unconciously forced to play this fkin role for most of my life and I wasn't even let to realise that I actually might want be myself. For the record, I live in Poland, was raised in small city by a very young couple, I was basically born when they were still studying at university. I was not provided any sex ed, I've never been told that having a certain organ between legs doesn't mean I have to live like this. The whole world seemed to be telling me that it is the only way, there are no other perspectives. And it was such a norm that I didn't even realise, didn't even think that it is possible. I still had thoughts like "I want to wake up as a girl" or even said i wish I was a girl once, but still didn't realise I actually am a girl and every morning I woke up as a girl. Just a girl that didn't realise she can be herself and was forced to pretend to be someone else. Because shape of a body in one place at birth. Absurd. So much pain, so many years taken away. But yea... I'm ofc not the only one
Also... transsexual? Like you feel sexually attracted to trans people? xd
As a not especially conventionally masculine man, I've gone through various stages in my life of both attempting to embrace conventional masculinity and actively rejecting it before settling on a place of indifference in my '30s. On the whole people don't percieve me as especially masculine and I'm okay with that, but this is in a sense still the path of least resistance; I don't go out of my way to look androgynous or in other ways actively defy masculine expectations publicly as I did when I was younger, in no small part because that did also compromise my physical safety. But that 'keep a low profile' attitude doesn't leave me exempt from the policing of masculinity either, even as I reach the very end of my youth when you might expect people to relax a little on such subjects.
Last year I adopted two dogs, one male puppy from an unwanted litter that was intercepted by rescuers before the pups were abandoned, and another older female dog who I literally found tick infested and near death on the street. Both are mutts and we have no idea what their genetic background is, but they're both black and the younger dog looks like a cross between a German Shepherd and a Pitbull. Between this 'tough' dog appearance and the effort I've put into training him, I've noticed I am perceived as a lot more conventionally masculine by strangers when I am walking him. And this seems ironic to me as most of what I know about dog training I learned from women, who make up the majority of working dog trainers in spite of men often being more high profile, and while people perceive the level of control and discipline I have (which, lest this sound like a humble brag, is far from perfect and still needs a lot of work) in terms of 'alpha' masculinity and being dominant (concepts which I believe are profoundly erroneous with respect to dogs), that's not at all reflective of the methodology I've used. There's a social reward in what I'm doing which I don't think buys people's respect in the same way for women, due to the degree to which these ideas of masculinity are ingrained, and yet I'd perceive them as an obstruction to the desired outcome in this case. I don't find it useful to think about my relationship with my dogs in terms of masculinity and femininity, but it's stunning the degree to which it colours people's assumptions.
(As an aside, neither embrace nor rejection of conventional manliness made me happy but I hurt more people when trying to live up to a masculine ideal, and regret that hugely.)
You live in a world that doesn't demand any musclin ideas.
You're weak minded. I don't do any of that pointless trash that means nothing to the universe
For me I grew up with a single feminist mom, she often said, that men are the problem for everything, and the world would be a better place if all of them were dead and that a lot of masculine things are bad. This kinda made me afraid of doing manly/masculine stuff, but I also got bullied a lot for that. But I found out I really like being in charge or having power or being dominant. My first gf was way more dominant than me and I hated that, but I tolerated it because I wanted to learn from her to become myself more dominant and now I achieved that with a former friend and another girl and I love it and they seem to also really like being treated in that way, getting told what to do not accepting weak excuses showing them what will happen and they like it and I feel great and horny and they seem so too :)
As someone who never was anywhere masculinity (or femininity thinking about it) this video was still very informative. Also you're pretty.
Very pretty! Oh, those lucky Swedes, sigh. (I'm not jealous! You're jealous! ^_~ jk I know it's just a stereotype. And of course you're not being jealous!)
video is full of gaslighting and lies.
^ _Someone's_ jealous. Hah! (Delete your silly post to make me look foolish. Or continue the nonsense, why not?)
@@misterpinkandyellow74 I'm not sure you know what gaslighting means, because there was not even a hint of gaslighting to be found here?
She really is! I'm jealous
I grew up in a rough environment with a lot of 'masculine' dominance. My biggest fear is ending up somewhere like prison or something where you can't simply opt out of the power struggle, as you described, but are essentially forced to project a strong masculine image to other men or else you will get abused and humiliated by them. Prison is an extreme example but other areas of life have similar dynamics, for instance a lot of work environments have masculine hierarchies (albeit of a less extreme type than prison or poor neighbourhoods). Then there's sports, partying, school etc. My point is that it's not always enough to simply opt out of the status race, because even if you don't care about having higher status there are still felt consequences to having low status or not participating. Alphas and aspiring alphas (as embodied cultural concepts) can be very insecure: they can sense when you don't care about status and interpret that as you thinking that you are better than them or above them in some way. I learned that the hard way growing up (unfortunately), although I've been fortunate to avoid such people for the most part as an adult.
Try living in a war torn country. Then would know where that 'useless' musclin ideas come from
This social pressure growing up is what got me into Boxing and Muay Thai.
@@holstatt6896 and that was a negative development?
You didn't mention school, the dynamics are pretty similar to prison if you don't stand up and beat up the bully even if that means you also get hurt and maybe expelled you will be bullied forever.
@@silotx they did mention school. But the dynamics are "simillar" to prison, in the same way that burning a book is simillar to burning a human being alive. Technically its simillar, but the circumstances couldnt be more different.
Hi Mia,
As a young trans guy (no hrt or surgery) I’ve been dealing a lot with masculinity and grappling with the misogynistic and sexist things I’ve done in order to better “resemble” a guy. This video was really helpful and I think it can help me realize what my masculinity will look like. Thank you.
(Also I’m so sorry about all those conspiracy theorists:(( I have many friends who like conspiracies and I swear we’re all not like that!)
Just be a human being mate... don't lean so much over this whole masculinity and femininity shite...
or you just aren't a guy
Love this incredibly well considered treatment of the topic. Particularly "Masculinity has always been in crisis". It is crisis by it's nature.
Love the various looks, the jacket and frilly shirt were very masc, in a French decadent way. ❤🧡💛💚💙💜
If someone says "act like a man" the simple answer is "Fine, I'm a man. You just need to expand your definition of masculinity".
The only crisis masculinity is in is the fact the concept is used by right wingers and man hating feminists to abuse men. Man haters like you spit on men, the sex that protect and enable women in some many ways, women would be nothing without men.
"Act like a man" would mean "act according to a behavioral pattern that society has decided for you". Instead, I prefer to act according to my individual leanings.
Hmm... Following your own compass, doesn't that sound more "masculine" than sticking to society's norms?
@@dalstein3708 where do you think society got its definition of musclinty from? Because it's themes are found all over the world
I was a rather non-conforming boy. I kept to myself whenever the other kids were too much, lived in my own world and freely expressed my emotions when they got too much to keep in. Needless to say, I am very much neurodivergent, but it took me 29 years until I actually sought out a diagnosis to look into what there was beyond my very obvious depression. Because I tried my damnedest for about 20 of those years to actively conform to Hegemonic Masculinity™. But it also means that I examined a lot of things through the lens of an outsider trying to understand and emulate. And I honestly couldn't agree more with you. I "watched" those early pickup artist shows on MTV in the late 2000s. "Watched" because I had the TV running on the side since I often couldn't actively watch people acting in more realistic settings. I still remember one "lesson" in particular. Where the guys, about as diverse as you could "unsuccessful" white guys expect to be, had to kiss one woman on the lips. Nothing "passionate" but more than just a little peck. Complete with tracing (caressing?) her jawline beforehand. I still haven't understood what was going on there. And I won't try. Yet it still gave me a good insight into what was going on in Masculinity™. Because even back then men defined themselves via their "conquests" and viewed themselves and each other as failures if they lagged behind their (perceived) peers. And if that was someone who made it his whole brand of racking up that body count. I simply never tried anything, but looking back, I can definitely agree that Crisis has been the norm for Masculinity™ for a good while now. And people like Andrew Tate or even those early pickup artists provide a simple answer in a world where a more complex answer is asked of you.
A core belief of conservatism is that complex problems require simple solutions.
I especially appreciate that you underscored that masculinity being in crisis has been going on for so long that the crisis is now a defining feature of the thing itself.
Also yeah, animal dominance hierarchies, as you said, don't apply to humans and interpretations of animal social behaviors can get distorted to the point of being cartoonish, even by biologists.
The human experience of hierarchy is so tied up with labor, who can compel it, and who can be compelled, much more than it is actual resource scarcity. But the main breeding male elephant seal has absolutely no power to compel any kind of labor out of any of the animals around him-- at best, he can block other males from sex some of the time, not even most of the time.
He's also largely at the mercy of the female social group-- when they decide he's done as the main breeding male, that's it, he can't do anything about it. It's really not the 'total control of a harem whether they like it or not' story that 'dominance hierarchy' implies, and research from the last five years especially has shown how much information was completely missed by ignoring social interactions among female animals and instead looking for a familiar narrative.
Another example of humans projecting our social categories onto animals who don't share them is how we describe eusocial insect species like bees, as being made up of workers, drones, and a queen. The term "queen" is actually a misnomer, because this bee is more of a brood mare who exists solely to reproduce, and is completely at the mercy of the workers. She can neither defend herself nor feed herself. It's in no way comparable to a human monarchy. The workers are the ones who are in charge of the hive, and who make all the important decisions, such as where to forage and when it's time to relocate. If the workers do not like the brood mare, they'll eliminate her and raise up a new one to replace her.
@@FrozEnbyWolf150 holy shit I had no idea bee lore was so dark 😶
@@FrozEnbyWolf150 The projection of hierarchies onto arthropods is a whole thing, it's bizarre, Jordan Peterson and the damn lobsters being another prime example, or the weird tone with which certain spider mating behaviors are described (even though there are species where female spiders will also willingly allow their spiderlings to eat them at the end of their lifespan which is some pretty radically dedicated parenting), never mind that the invert nervous system and body is so radically different from the human CNS that their subjective experience of self and world is far beyond our ability to conceptualize, let alone assign power relations onto!
@@idontwantahandlethough I actually see it the other way around. Instead of the workers being serfs who have to obey the absolute monarch, the workers are more like the cooperative owners of the means of production. At the same time, the workers are individuals who sacrifice their own reproductive success for the sake of others, which could be analogous to the social role LGBTQ+ people occupy. I sometimes compare our community to the worker bees of society.
It's like the joke about how the NB in nonbinary stands for Numerous Bees.
Plus when people talk about animal hierarchies they always talk about these pretty violent groups and completely ignore say the Bonobos who are literally one of our closest relatives and they are super chill and egalitarian and resolve tension with having sex left and right rather than violence.
As a 47 year old Trans Woman who came out 2 years ago, Abandoning the pretense of Masculinity has done wonders for me. Not that I ever felt like I was all that Masculine to begin with or every comfortable trying to live in that role. Thank you for always being amazing, Mia. You're an inspiration!
congratulations on transitionning !
stay safe out there sister. glad to have you with us.
❤
@@ninaandsimone3854 Thank you! I literally feel alive for the first time in my life.
@@bigmouthprick5852 I am glad to be with you! Thanks!
Fantastic video Mia!! As a cis-het man I can’t state enough how necessary conversations like these are! Men need to collaborate with each other and find new ideas of what masculinity can be! It will never be the same for everyone obviously but the thought and the discussion is vital to building a better future for all people of all genders! ❤
I know this is gonna get lost in the comments, but I wanted to mention that reality show Forged In Fire has been quietly modeling positive masculinity in a competitive environment for a whole bunch of years. It's 100% wall-to-wall Man Stuff, fire, sweat, big machines, determination, cool weapons, striving for excellence, doing awesome slo-mo sword moves, and also safety, good sportsmanship, giving and taking constructive criticism, being confident, being humble, losing gracefully, and generally being a good bro to those around you. It's good stuff.
Thanks for the recommendation 👍
For a great example of toxic male versus positive male I'd like to add Tarzan Vs Clayton from Tarzan.
Your comment, in fact, did not get lost in the comments, congratulations! I will check it out, I love to see examples like this!
I love the show. There are also women there and all who enter loved being a blacksmith.
if binary gender roles are learned, they're learned awfully early. i taught nursery school for several years and almost all the kids had already sorted themselves by gender. boys were aggressive and unruly. girls were collaborative and empathetic. i was the sole male teacher in the school and i tried to undo that sorting, e.g. addressing groups of both boys and girls as "you guys," encouraging non stereotypical behavior etc. it was largely a failure, even though the kids were only four. it was the rare boy who ventured into the doll corner. you may know a 1972 book called "X: A Fabulous Child's Story" about nongendered child rearing. ITIOFD my mom wrote it.
I had a turning point as a man in my teens. I tried being manly because I was very insecure. I was a sensitive kid and cried a lot so I thought I had to toughen up and stop showing emotion. I avoided "girly" things until one day i asked myself "do I want to be manly or do I want to be myself?" To me manliness was drinking alcohol, being muscly and never crying or showing emotions. But me, I wanted to draw and dance and listen to music and to feel emotions rather than suppress them. So I gave up manliness and in doing so became my true self. It may not be the solution for everyone but I think we need to tell men that they don't *need* to be manly and to just be themselves. I feel aggressive masculinity comes from insecurity. It's a suit of spiky armor to protect yourself and make you look tough but inside that armour is a squishy soft human like everyone else. I don't think men are born macho. Most little boys don't know what masculinity is and neither do they care. It's parents or older people they look up to who tell them to stop playing with barbie dolls. I think we should teach men to be true to themselves rather than be manly. If a grown man wants to play with barbie dolls let them.
Hi Mia, cis bi male here, came out when I was 59. Thank you for producing and releasing this important think piece on the crisis among young men today. Keep up the good work.
❤
Really love the Kiryu Kazuma bit. As a cis man I've been fascinated and bothered by this issue for years. But I think that Kiryu is one of the few examples of an actual positive masculine role model that we have in our time, and it's so cute to see you use him here.
Used to work at a coffee chain and the amount of men who would get sheepish if they had to order anything other than a coffee was unreal
Watched on Nebula and came over to leave a nice comment like you asked. Thanks so much for all of your videos
Being genuinely confident about yourself can be such a blessing. So many men feel chronic fear of what they might turn out to be if they looked at themselves honestly, and that state of dread of oneself sucks terribly.
I think this falls short of one of the biggest sticking points of masculinity for most men who are struggling with the evolution of masculine ideals. And that's the relationship with women. I think that, except for some edge cases of individuals trying to mask, or not yet come to terms with, their identity as gay or trans, those struggling with masculinity are heterosexual men trying to figure out how they can negotiate relationships with women. All the posturing of wealth and status is largely to serve the end of being desirable to women. And I think it is largely the function of masculinity, in most men's minds, to define how one becomes desirable. And is why men who fail to live up to those ideals to feel despondent and unwanted.
This is all to say that masculinity is also policed by women. And you cannot construct a coherent picture of what masculinity is without women. And that women also need to be self-reflective and *honest* about what they really want from men. This isn't to say that it is on women to figure it out, but more to say that men can't do it alone. Everyone needs to work together to construct a healthier space for various gender expressions.
I read a really interesting book about this subject for university called The Manly Eunuch. It describes a crisis of masculinity that existed within the late Roman empire that coincided with a shrinking of Rome's dominance over Europe and the development of organised Christianity. Basically, the emperor was becoming increasingly autocratic throughout this period, to the waning power of the traditional senatorial elite to the point they as a class became increasingly irrelevant, all the while the empire was shrinking, the barbarian raids were getting bolder and more frequent, and what were once jobs in the empire's government were being given to eunuchs, who were often freed slaves who owed everything to the emperor and whose loyalty could be assured because they were unable to start their own dynasties. But rather than blame the emperor, or themselves for allowing Rome to come to this point, those elites believed that it was because the masculinity of every Roman had declined over time. They literally believed that good times create effeminate men shit - the manly eunuch disproves that shitty meme! And when their actual political power was lost, they hid and shrank into the symbolic power of their masculinity. They mocked the eunuchs who had the authority they longed for, because they could never, in their eyes, be real men.
The book also discusses how Roman ideals of masculinity impacted the development of early Christianity - basically the Romans thought the Christians effeminate, but while many Christians talked about the virtue and morality of their "effeminate" acts like refusing military service, non violence, compassion, etc. a growing movement of bishops instead opted to try and frame Christianity as masculine, especially the martyrs. It goes over a lot of gender debates that were being had when the religion was young, and how a lot of our problems with the patriarchal christianity we inherited from that period have their roots in trying to appeal to toxic hegemonic masculinity in the roman empire. Its all in all a really interesting study of this issue
Thanks for the book rec, I am definitely going to get my hands on a copy of it!
fascinating, thanks a ton :)
You might also be interested to read Jesus and John Wayne-- about the patriarchal and political influences in the US over the past ~75 years and how Christianity (especially evangelical) has molded the faith to now reflect more of a militant masculinity.
"More than any other religious demographic in America, white evangelical Protestants support preemptive war, condone the use of torture, and favor the death penalty."
“Evangelical militancy cannot be seen simply as a response to fearful times; for conservative white evangelicals, a militant faith required an ever-present sense of threat.”
Good recommendation. Too many people think "da wimminz destroyed all these empires", and it's really not true. It was usually corruption, expansion/domination to the point of bloat, endless wars etc. Women as a group within the power structures in those society did not have enough power to do control things.
Historians, cultural anthropologists etc are always like "No, not how it went". But easier to blame scapegoats.
Putting this book on my too long list of to read books
I come here to say that I'm MORE comfotable and LESS insecure with my masculinity through doing "uncomfortable introspection moment" that you mention because I refect and question about my own meaning of masculinity and come to conclusion that I can create my own meaning of masculinity that not bother anyone but myself to validate it so I'm very recommend anyone who associate themselves with manhood or masculinity to do introspection. I guarantee that it gonna worth it for you guys.
Alpha move, BVC!
This is a serious topic but I love that velvet jacket, love it. Edit: ugh I love the frilly cuffs of the shirt, too. Steal me away on a white horse, rose of versailles!
It's a fun jacket!
I subscribed to nebula a little while ago because of you (and Jessie Gender)
Your videos are always amazing and no matter how long there is between videos, I’ll still be here.
My toddler and infant seem to enjoy these videos, too, since they’ll tend to calm down when I have them on to crochet or knit during the kids’ nap time.
I’m sad that you were going through a depressive episode, but we understand and all we (me and my family) want is for you to be alright, even and especially if it means you take more time than usual to release a video.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts 💚
I really love your point about how a lot of cis men haven’t had to confront that discomfort around gender in the same way that a lot of trans folks have - it’s something that helped me feel more empathy for where that unquestioned position might be coming from!
I'm concerned about the lack of transmasculine voices in this conversation. If anyone knows about what it's like to choose to be masculine during this "crisis" it's us.
Great work! I've been racking my brain trying to understand how/why and to cope with the level to which this hyper-masculinity movement has gained traction. Thoughtful essays like this are a huge help for me, and in all seriousness, I think you're making the world a better place. Thanks for putting in the effort.
First time watching your videos (your channel was recommended by a friend) and I am absolutely amazed that you are smart and funny enough to keep me entertained for nearly a full hour talking about what I would of previously consider a very boring topic. I feel so lucky to exist in a world where there are people like you out there.
Mia Mulder swearing at the sun is maybe the most endearing thing I've seen in a very long time. :3
This is a really good dissection of the whole current mess. I've never really been able to vocalize the blindness of cis people to their own gender identities, but I think you explained it really well.
The point about hegemonic masculinity pushing others down to make them relatively higher was so illuminating! I always just thought those people were just being narrow minded. Thanks for the interesting video!
They really _were_ being narrow-minded, because as they saw it, their survival and wellbeing _depended_ on narrowing their minds.
Hello from agender land. I want to make one important distinction from my perspective: a woman who wholly thinks herself a woman can act just as masculine as a man, and thus can become ignorantly complicit in its negative manifestations. One example we saw recently was interpretations of the "girl boss" trend exemplifying the worst of capitalism. It's damn hard to divorce patriarchy from economic systems, and it's really damn hard to resist the temptation of physical security granted by wealth.
Another example of this is when conservative women develop the same inferiority/superiority complex that is often attributed to conservative men, and develop their same bigotries towards other races, gays, single women etc.
Thank you, Mia for your thoughts to ponder. As a thinker rather then a doer, I am all in favor of taking a considered approach to gender and all of the facets of your life. I have done a lot of gender introspection and unfortunately have not always come up with a single nor a solid answer. All I have come up with is that I am pretty heterosexual and that's about it. I have many mannerisms and opinions that often lead me to go back to reevaluation masculinity and femininity. I largely find that gender is a spectrum and that I don't exist on the same place on it for all aspects of me.
I am a little surprised that you did not explore the "belonging" of masculine traits to men, and the "belonging" of feminine traits to women. I am a trans woman who suffered much pain troughout my life because of how masculine I was, and still am. Having been a carpenter and builder, and generally large and strong, and having loads more masculine traits, I was and am more masculine then most men. I do not know how I can express how much it hurt to desire with all of my heart to be a woman, and then always think "Oh, I guess I cannot, because I am so manly." I still suffered some during my transition, as other women and trans women would continue to insist that I had to conform to and adopt feminine traits, some of which are contrary to my inherent nature (sure, beauty products are cool, but do you know how much that stuff costs, jeez). As far as I can tell, I act and behave as woman (and have a female gender identity), but I am still fairly masculine, and am not very feminine (I really like dresses though). Perhaps insisting that a woman who is 5'10" or so and a couple hundred pounds is too masculine to be a woman is extremely cruel to trans women and cis women who are such. Maybe it is ok for a man to be a nurse, or perhaps exhibit so-called "feminine" traits. Maybe, like the gender spectrum, or the sexual spectrum, we should consider that there is actually a masculinity/femininity spectrum, and we should stop trying to shoehorn everyone into one or the other.
I really felt that sort of toxic femininity so to speak, a lot in high school. I'm not very feminine and don't want to be, but I was forced by other kids to wear things, do things, and make myself appear more feminine or else I was told no one would like me. Which was wrong, but still affected my pressure to do things I didn't like, that are expensive, and uncomfortable to avoid being bullied for being outside the gender binary. It's something I've been trying to move away from, but this idea of very binary ideals ends up hurting everyone.
the interface between gender dysphoria and gender nonconformity are genuinely SO deep. Like much of mens insecurity towards not being able to perform their masculinity is a form of gender dysphoria, but there is also genuine nonconformity that is not dysphoric. These two things interacting is so fucking complex and difficult to talk about and I think that's why we tend to frame issues of identity around gender conforming trans (oxymoronic i know) gender dysphoria, because that's the clearest example of "believes and performs as the gender they seek and not reared as", however when we really ask "what does the presentation look like" it starts to get very complex very fast, especially when we starting point towards cis gender dysphoria vs genuine nonconformity nondysphoric.
theres no gender spectrum or sex, you realize majority of you humans are worthless NPCs, and YES you do get shoehorned on one side or the other, none of you are unique
as someone who's been raised male and is majoring in sociology, I think you hit the nail on the head
Just wanted to say that I always enjoy your videos and as someone who studied history, I truly appreciate your research and insight, but also how respectful you are of your subject. I'm sorry to hear you're dealing with depression too... I know how hard this is and I admire you even more for being able to create such a thoughtful video while you're going through this.
'Masculinity' as a value system might be in a decline, but even as a fairly 'masculine' person, I don't care. I side to the radical feminist view that the values of autonomy and freedom for all people means transcending the limits and values imposed on them. I not only don't think it's enough of a problem to be a 'crisis', but regardless of its label, the causes are two; 1) Some or most people find the lives they're born into unsatisfying and cruel, so they want a world that's free and to be the kinds of people for that world. 2) The material and psychic effects of that drive as it struggles into being.
I yearn and will fight for that glorious fucking dawn so long as I breathe. No more hiding, no alienation, no split personas.
I'm nonbinary agender, and the irony is that I feel I gained a better grasp of positive masculinity after I stopped trying to be a man. I had internalized so many aspects of toxic masculinity that I felt constricted by that narrow definition, and thus sought to distance myself from it as much as possible. Yet it was probably my purging of all gendered labels from my identity that helped me realize what I'd been missing all along. It's not about trying to be a manly man, it's about being a good person first and foremost. Everything else follows from that. If you want to be a good man, then work on yourself and help those in need. This also goes for whatever gender you happen to be, including those of us who have none at all.
same, thats why our agenda ends up as ending gender 👀
if positive masculinity is being a good person and your best self, thats no different than what positive femininity is either, meaning none if it is gendered.
this is probably the closest we'll ever get in our lifetime
"
FrozenWolf150
7 hours ago
I'm nonbinary agender, and the irony is that I feel I gained a better grasp of positive masculinity after I stopped trying to be a man."
No you have, you are still toxic, "I am more of a man than other men" typical male mindset.
You are still masculine in the eyes of women and feminists, they still hate you for it, try to be nonbinary agender as you want. lol
oh my god this is so true. I'm a guy, but I've gone through something.. kinda similar? Like many guys, when I was younger I spent a lot of time focused on how to be "more masculine". I don't think I thought about it exactly like that, but that's clearly what it was. It was crazy unhealthy and really only ever led to shame and self-hatred. At some point I realized that it didn't matter at all and that doing traditionally "feminine" things didn't make me less of a man because that's totally ridiculous. It's really night and day how much better it feels to not worry about all that crap :)
On top of that, like you said a lot of the aspects of traditional masculinity are just not.. not good lol. But stuff like being confident in myself and helping others? Those are things I can get behind, but they also [obviously] aren't exclusive to men; anyone can do those things!
You have not purged yourself of gendered labels, keep telling yourself that. You are still viewed as a man and mistreated for being one by society and women.
Your videos have had genuinely positive impact on me. Not only you display a lot of empathy, you also go much deeper into some subject to the point I realize a bunch of stuff that suddenly makes so much sense.
Being AMAB, I always felt super uncomfortable when faced with expectations and judgements regarding my 'gender performance'. And, yeah learning more about gender helped me realize WHY but only recently I am able to be more at ease with myself. While unable to ignore all my dysphorias, and aware of how coming out would ruin me, I am already so much happier being done with performing and more focused on simply letting myself being more open and kind and loving no matter how I am perceived for that.
I always feel a little happier when I see that you've put out a new video. This one was lovely and insightful as usual, and (also as usual) you looked beautiful throughout. Thanks for doing what you do, and hang in there. I think us history nerds tend to be a bit depression prone, because we can see the big picture of society's trajectory, and that picture is awful. But you're doing something about it by speaking up and offering information to the public. Hearing your perspective helps a lot of people, myself included. So please take good care of yourself when you feel down. You are valued by many people.
I'm a cis hetero man who always found masculinity to be performative. Being in large groups of guys usually made me feel like I had to put on an act to fit in, so I've often preferred the company of women, trans people, and gay men. Occasionally, I've had straight male friends who have examined what it means to be masculine, but I find this to be kind of rare. Introspection is difficult and uncomfortable, I suppose.
Also to Mia specifically: You're smart and you look really cute in that turtle neck. I love your videos. Keep up the good work!
The problem with masculinity is it mainly exists in relation to femininity as a performative role that is now diminishing in the 21st century. Now they’ve lost their sense of purpose and identity because they’ve been socialized to operate in a domineering, entitled way, while the rest of society is changing and rejecting their previous roles. They don’t understand that the patriarchal system is the problem, so they lash out at cis women, trans men and women, and anyone who upsets the traditional roles.
Growing up in a rural town in America, I had a very clear definition of what a homosexual male was. The problem is, I exercised none of the feminine traits the bullies said I should. For the longest time, I thought of myself as a kind of Frankenstein's monster. I didn't like women enough to be a "man" and I didn't enjoy feminine hobbies enough to be "gay". It wasn't until my early 20s that I discovered the leatherboy artwork of Tom of Finland. Through this (and subsequent motorcycle-related media) I was able to finally express myself through more than the jeans and a meme shirt standard I had been given.
I just found you and philosophytube and contrapoints in the span of like a month and I just really enjoy getting to hear and see your content - and theirs - as a real example of like, the diversity of ideas within our community. You’re doing a good job and I’m proud of you for putting yourself out there to create witty, interesting content.
Hey Mia, thank you for making all these videos. I always enjoy your content and have your videos going on my 2nd monitor most times while I am doing other stuff, they are extremely entertaining and informative to me. For context I am trans mtf but I didn't discover your channel until after I started transitioning, I'm almost 1 1/2 years on hormones now and I've been so happy with my progress, yesterday was my birthday actually. Getting to 32 years old and finally being the woman I have dreamt or fantasized about really helps. And your videos help with my own introspections I often do on myself as uncomfortable as they are, which you mentioned more than once. While it is uncomfortable introspection has helped me incredibly and for all those moments where I was unhappy with questioning myself it has always led to me being a better person. This comment kinda got away from me but I mostly just wanted to say your videos are fantastic and I am glad to see you're still doing them, I hope your depression smashes its toes against a wall on a very cold morning. Be well
As a fellow velvet blazer owner, I have to say this is obviously my favorite of your videos.
(Also you do a great job talking about an issue that I don’t think gets discussed enough and presenting it with clarity and nuance!)
As a non-velvet blazer owner, damn, I gotta get myself a velvet blazer.
As a non-neurotypical man, I can say that my inability as a child to understand or conform to "what other boys do" was upon reflection a gift in some ways as I explored my own identity as I aged and came to a lot of conclusions based on what I liked or disliked with no gendering of things. It also help me understand my sexuality (gay) and accept it with more ease. Now does that mean I didn't have societal friction? Uh yeah no I had other kids give me hell about all kinds of things that as an adult turned out to be meaningless. It was their "display of strength" that ultimately showed their weaknesses because I did not respond the way they expected (my brain just did not get it at all). Liked the video, cannot wait for the next one!
I think this is about the best video on this subject I have seen, somehow things slotted into place more cleanly, good job :)
I’ve always considered the kind of masculinity posited by people like Andrew Tate as being more of a brand than an actual thing. They’re selling a product or a lifestyle, and that’s something very different than what I consider masculinity (or femininity for that matter) to be.
The clue is in the words.
A "sign" of weakness.
Having the actual masculine traits of confidence and strength and bravery would mean that you would be comfortable appearing weak or vulnerable, because that takes courage and confidence to do. But the idea of masculinity as professed here, is about the signifiers of masculinity, that is, appearing confident and brave and strong. The thing is, it's pretty fearful, weak, and insecure to constantly be focused on performing these traits.
So the point is to be trying to perform having traits, that you, by performing them, prove you don't have.
That's the crisis. That self imposed identity crisis and that's also what's toxic about it. There is no way to be viewed as top of the pack here without also having to deal with crippling imposter syndrome. Your identity will only be respected if it's fake, performative, a lie.
As a trans person who transitioned late in life, I'm somewhat familiar with how it feels to perform a lie as your identity and I don't wish that on anyone.
Watching this with my gf after having top surgery!!! Best post op activity
So i was thinking about my experience with masculinity, and with how i mostly grew up hanging out with women, even to this day i preffer to hang around with them, and realised it's mostly because women are allowed to be more openly emotional, while what i noticed with men my age, they don't let themselves be sad, either they're joyful or angry. And i still enjoy "masculine" things like manual work or guns (been taught gun safety well enough to get nervous when i or others hold an empty real gun because i know the damage they can cause), but i just feel more in-tune with my emotions and am more open about them because i feel like learning to be open with your feelings and being nice and kind doesn't take away from your masculinity.
This is an amazing video, and thank you so much for making it. I'm a man in my mid-twenties, and I've been doing a lot of soul-searching lately. I've known for a long time that conventional masculinity won't work for me, so hearing you say "the solution here is for men to try to create a new ideal for themselves" was truly empowering.
i as raised to be normative but i have autism. the older i get the more i dislike most of our societal concepts of gender
as a cis/hetero/white/male that a lot of people would consider masculine, the least masculine thing you can do is stress out about being masculine. i know there are times when my anger and hormones can lead to negative behavior so I work on it as a human being, that's not suppressing my masculinity, it's growing as a person. people like andrew tate are basically saying to embrace that angry testosterone fueled part of yourself in a negative way, i like fighting, shooting guns, driving fast cars and protecting my wife is the most important thing to me. but that's not what defines me as a human being and i think it's a little sad how so many young men are making being a "manly man" their entire personality. i say a lot of that to also say i think that denying biological realities that a larger portion of men than women even in a vacuum will display more masculine traits than women will is incorrect, but it's a spectrum like most things are and treating masculinity and femininity as oppositional forces is damaging to the human condition. we are a sexually dimorphic species physically and i would argue also psychologically and both halves of that coin are equally as important to society.
As long as we don't force people to be the half we think they should be this is fine.
trans rights are human rights. i didn't say any of that to disparage anyone. i was simply pushing back that masculinity is 100% a social construct. maybe 75% maybe 90%. just not 100%. for every man.
Loved this video. A very genuine take on a concept that isn't often taken seriously!
Lovable himbos are one of my favorite non toxic expressions of masculity.
In all seriousness though, some of the most masculine men I know are the ones who have escaped traditional masculinity in some ways, like embracing an understanding of empathy and emotion.
I really appreciate how thoughtful and thorough you are in your videos. I've learned so much by going through your backlog. While I regret that your conspiracy videos brought mean comments, I can't say I'm sad that you made them because not only were they incredible and interesting, but they're how I found your channel 😊
Shout out to Finntastic Mr Fox and all the other men who are doing the hard work of constructing a new kind of masculinity!
Just wanted to say I love your videos and I'm so glad I found your channel a few months back
Lovely video as always! Thank you so much for taking the time and putting in the effort to make such good quality videos even when you're going through a hard time. Take care!
Great video as always!
I remember someone talking about the "Alpha Wolf" study and how it actually does work for humans. The wolf that is the alpha because he's the most dominant works for humans because, like the wolf in captivity, he's alone in a hostile environment, surrounded by strangers, and he's terrified so is forced to put up a front while his life is wasted away in a cage. The alpha in the wild is free, the leader of the pack because he's the father. He makes sure the weak are taken care of and that the strong aren't overzealous. And he doesn't need to be afraid of those he's surrounded with. He also holds his wife (the alpha female) in equal standing
This video was super well done. I think the section on least resistance really demonstrated you know your stuff.
Been looking forward to a good treatment of this topic for a long while, excellent stuff as always ❤
There's something poetic about doing your evening skincare routine while listening to this as a trans woman 💜
It’s kind of funny seeing people talk about masculinity when my experience of it was so disconnected. As much as I hate people talking about “biological males” and “male socialization”, I think I definitely at least had some experience with masculinity in my 25 years of trying to be one. Maybe it’s not an accurate picture as I was not male and spent a lot of that time desperately trying to hide that, but I definitely got an insider’s view of how inadequate these “beta males” feel when they compare themselves to the Andrew Tates or James Bonds or Ron Swansons of the world, or whomever they idolize as the ideal man.
Side note: personally my ideal growing up was James Bond - perfectly stylish, endlessly capable, self sufficient, and effortless with the ladies. It didn’t occur to me how flawed and misogynist that character is, or how he’s not even a real or realistic person.
I have to say, the prescriptive, ultra-masculine ideas of masculinity were tempting as a teen in a way to repress my actual gender identity, fit in better, and try to avoid any accusation of being emasculated. Oh the irony… but I was terrified of being thought of as gay or girly as a child and into early teenagehood, and I definitely seeked out the progenitors of the modern Manosphere to find ways I could be a jacked suave chad with money and status who had to fend off girls. I was too young to explore what that version of masculinity meant and where it came from, it just perfectly reflected what society and media said I should aim for, was about as far as could be from my small stature, long hair, and geeky shyness, and seemed like a good cover for any accusations of not being man enough.
Thankfully what I found was a slightly more healthy (but still problematic) variety of masculinity that focused on self improvement without the external focus of “getting girls” or increasing status. Honestly for me it was mostly getting into male fashion, a bit of car culture, and accepting that I was always a bit of a geek. One thing that I carried with me was that if I pretended to be confident, eventually I would feel confident, which shockingly actually worked out for me (I could probably stand to remember this now as I’m so afraid as I try to fit into femininity).
Funny enough, this “fake” confidence, my exploration of good fashion, embracing hobbies, and a touch of genetic luck (which I curse now) actually made me a confident young man that wasn’t afraid to wear form fitting clothes, drive a colorful girly car, and eventually start exploring my gender expression further. I can look back and think that perhaps these things were signs of my underlying gender identity, but at the time I felt like they were things I could do because I was confident enough in my masculinity that trying a strawberry daiquiri on my 21st or having long hair or driving a sky blue convertible or wearing a tailored pink button up and skinny jeans weren’t threatening to my identity. Those things never actually threatened my identity, and if anything, my formerly shameful crossdressing subsided at that time.
Maybe it was only possible because my actual gender identity made even a more healthy expression of masculinity uncomfortable, but I think this was a decent template for a given teenage guy who is unconfident, doesn’t care about how he looks, and focuses more on wanting things like status or a partner rather than the things he has and enjoys. But yeah, maybe I only managed that because I was willing to explore my gender identity and was already feeling discomfort, which made the discomfort of questioning it less noticeable.
I’ve not watched this video, but it keeps coming up on my feed. Every time I see the title though, I always say “dear god, I hope so”
Growing up i knew who I was, I also understood that my identity wouldn't matter (and still doesn't) to the people around me. They will always see me as the boy they want me to be. I spent most of my life creating the person I thought I was expected to be and the singular Moment that self personification was acknowledged by someone else I immediately understood that I wasn't the person I created, I Am the person i created that persona to protect. Came out at 33 and starting treatments at 36.
Cis woman here: I think there's a part of hyper-femininity that you've sort of explained the other side of, which is the "not like other girls" or "pick-me girls" type trope, but that's very much a response to the more base form of toxic femininity that comes from women policing other women about the way they look and act, not so much in being subservient, but in that you're supposed to be competitively attractive to men in all sorts of ways, but make it seem like you're putting no effort in, when what you do is extremely calculated.
You may say that there is no crisis of femininity in this way, but a lot of the trouble is that this type of toxicity is very inward-facing. Punishment is about you feeling shame for not fitting a very strict, or even impossible physical and social mould, but hiding that you feel bad about not doing so, or else be marked as jealous, a loser, inherently weird, etc.
One of the ways this comes up poignantly is when straight women are hyper-sexual with each other because it's about the attention that they get from straight men. A lot of straight, highly feminine cis women will kiss each other and make jokes about being sexy with other women because they think that's what men like, while these women are also shunning and judgemental of actual lesbians, because they don't fit the ideal they're trying to cram themselves into. As a non-straight woman, I've seen the hypocrisy of a single night out where straight women will interrogate me about my partners and history in a way that makes me feel like an alien being, and then go on to drunkenly kiss each other at a club because they think it's "so hot" to straight men.
I think there's also a lot of sunk cost in spending so much of your time and youth pursuing beauty, interests and a personality that straight men find attractive, that there's a level of threat from women who don't fit that mould and have the nerve to not even feel ashamed about it. Women who do buy into the standards want everyone else to buy into them too, so they don't feel like they've sold their souls, but they don't want others to buy into it so much and so successfully that they out-compete them.
There is fierce competition in cis-het-passing female groups. It's socially subtle in a way that makes it difficult for openly non-cis, non-het and neurodivergent women to access, but a whole rule of the game is to not let men know you're playing it. Because playing it makes you a try-hard (and no one likes a girl who tries, she needs to be naturally perfect), and not playing it but pointing it out in other women makes you a hater, or not like other girls girl.
It's a devious setup, and a lot more subtle and unspoken than toxic masculinity, but it still has its toll (in terms of self-h*rm, eating disorders, poor mental health, low self-esteem, body issues, etc.)
And companies love to prey on it too.
First of all they are not pick me and pick me stuff that has nothing nothing to do with politics, personality and gender you are simply strawmaning them.
There are pick me's on your side too, they are the rad feminists who put or talk down on women who are on the other side to gain approval from other rad feminists and white knight types on the left.
Even the 1960's feminists types have always shit and wrote books on the women who choose themselves to be like that. And pick me's like you still do without considering that women like that exist( not what you described ).
Even in my personal experience the women who do what you described in the comments have daddy issues and in fact are very loud, masculine, promiscuous and filled their Instagram pages with activism and those are the ones that are easier to hook up for the tate types not to mention they are the rad feminists who just come out of their eco chamber one day a week.
All i see in this comment is that you are projecting some sort of toxic insecurity and feeling that you think feminine women are inherently bad or weak who don't accept your agenda just like how tate types consider some guys beta because they don't drink black coffee.
And these trad wife troll accounts are responses to the feminists who don't understand the pov of these women and always demonise them in their political activism.
Even tate types of men and redpill movement are infact response to the other extreme side and if you have to eliminate one side then you should eliminate the other extreme side too.
If you even have to politicise this Incel issue then the left have a very big Incel problem even the particular Incel mass shooters are white knight nice guy types with Twitter accounts filled with Left-wing activism.
The left's advice sucks for men and it's like if you are homeless then just get a home.
The only reason the manosphere rise up because they actually discussed men issues in the first place and they gave good advice for them to succeed but the toxic thing they did is that they put every type of woman into one box and blamed them all and encouraged the guy to cheat on their partners, encouraged promiscuity and degenerate lifestyle for the guy's. But i think 90% of them took the good advice and didn't engage in those toxic behaviour as even in those video comments you can see they are guys expressing that they don't want to be a degenerate person.
I understand you are a pick me type feminist from the way you posted this comment but here critique of the feminist movement that is voiced around women for women doesn't give good advice or solutions for 90% of the heterosexual men and the movement may have removed all forms of toxicity but it also removed and demonised the health form of masculinity. Even the solutions they offer to majority of men are bullshit as they simply blame it on patriarchy and the only way to solve this is when we all become feminists.
A few days ago i saw some wanna be vaush clone streamer who said in our side men can be whatever they want but he got so triggered when he saw the response where these guys wanted to be traditional and he strawmanned it the whole stream and he doesn't understand what tradition is actually.
Being traditional is not bad, as you and your partner are choosing to introduce tradition lifestyle by yourselfves and there was a study that observed in those Nordic countries where these majority of citizens (both male and female) gravitated to traditional gender roles when the society became more freedom oriented through the years of progress. Even in Southern states in the USA you can observe the same phenomenon especially with conservative women.
Maybe you think tradition is some sort of bad thing and strawman it like in this video when most of these people only apply it for their relationship side and they still value individualism in other aspects of their lives which most conservative women do in the USA, they own and run businesses, ranches and other forms of agriculture and the conservative women have always contributed in the work force even before the world war 1 started and most female entrepreneurs are republican and conservative women that run small businesses to big businesses. They are definitely not pick me's though but i did come across those pick me types but not what you described and these conservative women are not and nowhere near to pick me's.
All i have to say pick me feminists like you and those toxic red pill guys is that to come out of their eco chambers otherwise this endless cycle of hating each other will continue forever.
Women are not in crises and our society from the existence of our species has always been gynocentric and it will be like that for ever and in fact i would also argue that most women are better at choosing mates, they get approached very often in the dating scene too and it's the guys that have to do the most of the job to make her feel safe in comfortable.
And this critique is coming from a guy who read feminist literature from those classics to modern and i myself am an anti feminist guy because the core principle of this movement is rejecting gender roles (which are mostly positive roles) and necessary for the majority of people on this planet (hetrosexuals)
to follow and introduce it in one aspect of their lives.
I believe in equality, individualism, freedom and self responsibility and me being an anti feminist has nothing to do with anti women as i am rejecting a socio political ideology and i don't care about what women do with their bodies and in their personal lives, or what jobs they do or 0 kids lifestyle.
I love women and give respect to those women who deserve it and comparing them to a property is very dehumanizing from the other side. I will start a CZcams channel discussing and teaching economics and i will focus on these two extreme groups who are keeping alive this endless cycle of hate
Looking to define a modern masculinity is...kinda doomed. Because masculinity/femininity has always been largely defined based on gender roles, and gender roles are going away. I have an 18 year old son and a 17 year old daughter, and I just tried to think of something I would expect of my son that I would not also expect of my daughter. I came up with NOTHING. Like those "positive masculine traits" you listed -- independence, taking initiative, etc, don't we also expect those traits from women now? There aren't distinct roles for men and women anymore. So defining a modern masculinity has to have nothing to do with a masculine ROLE. That leaves...what? Beards? I'm not being facetious here, I think we really need to figure that out.
Thanks so much for making these videos Mia! You provide such an intelligent, unique, and valuable perspective, and you deliver it so eloquently and with such wit and humor!
This is 'one' of the most, if not THE most intellectual, academic and well-read breakdowns I have heard to date; Thanks for this. I'm 50+ and grew up with traditional norms relating to male chivalry, independent thought, emotional discipline and knowing when to lead and when to follow. This talk brought more clarity to mind as I move forward in this ever-changing minefield of right and wrong behaviours and thinking, which I have been navigating since I was a boy in the early 80's. Being a man, in these days, is a very individual thing. On one hand, one shouldn't be influenced too much by other mens ideals, but also need to be respectful of not just other men finding their way; but also to other genders who are also navigating what it means to be a good and balanced human being in general.
I prefer to take a more liberal, left ideology of masculinity, while rejecting both left and right extremes, but still listening so that I can keep up with the narrative. It's important to keep an open mind and experience new things that are both emotionally and intellectually challenging. I've struggled with many extreme and subtle forms of domination and submission in all avenues of society. I accept things for what they are and prefer to take a more individualistic approach to just about everything, whether that be sexual, professional, interpersonal, intellectual, emotional or what have you. Likewise, I have found that striking my own balance with what I can live with is more essential than projecting a misplaced balance or following a norm, “just because” others say so.
I've explored many, many walks of life, I regret none of it. I wish I was more “allowed” to explore more in my youth, as many people today are allowed to explore. At the end of the day, though, we are all only a product of what we have been socially and experienctially exposed to, accepted, integrated and/or rejected into or out of our own lives. I take personal responsibility for what I know and don't know, equally.
As for Mr. Tate; he's emotionally immature, intellectually dishonest and is obsessed with an incessant need to project false confidence while exerting control, at any cost. People like him are a dime a dozen and are easily ignored; by my standards. That said, he does make points that are worthy of academic exploration for discussion and dissection.
As an aside, if I was born 20 years later, Miss Mulder, I would probably fall in love with you. You're beautiful, intelligent, and I could sit and have a beer with you and listen to you talk, think and opine all day long. What a world we live in. I'm glad that you're sharing your part in it! I only hope that I can surround myself with more people like you💗
I am a cis white male and my dream would be to stay at home and cook good stuff for my wife and kids (of which I have neither though lol) etc., and no I have no intention of becoming a woman, I do feel masculine, I just reject a lot of the stereotypes.
It's the second video of yours that I watch and I find them really interesting.
Screw all the haters, I feel sorry imagining all the horrible comments you must receive.
Just wanted to let you know you aren't alone in that. Not saying that this is your situation but for me a lot of my childhood was spent with my very kind and empathetic single mother and I think she became the model for what I want to be as a person. I was still pretty young when she got married and started staying at home, since she was my main role model, I really grew to view being a stay at home parent as an aspiration. So shoutout to another fellow future stay at home dad!
@@count_rizzula You might be on to something actually. My dad virtually never did a thing at home when I was a child (he was not a bad nor mean dad, I don't think my mom was ever unhappy, they probably never thought about things like gender roles), while my mom (may she rest in peace), was effectively the person I saw the most as a child, and yes I probably drew a lot of inspiration from her. I was unable to understand what my dad did all day at the time. My mom however, it was totally obvious what she was doing: taking care of us, loving us...
It would be nice to reverse things, like stay home and raise girls who are independent and strong and do with their lives whatever they feel like :)
Thanks for doing into the actual biology of alphas and betas in nature. I hate when people just say "that's not a thing, the wolf guy was wrong", because we still use the concepts in biology, where they fit.
39:02 - basically the reason for me to fall into depression (i struggle with it for 6 years now) because it happened when i still thought i have to play a role of a man in life
Hi ❤ thank you for all your work, and your presence here🥰 it is very appreciated 😍
Fuck the transphobes, you're great Mia. Thank you for making such important ideas available to everyone. I'm an old fart who has always struggled with my identity as a man. It's incredibly comforting to hear someone so smart say what you say in this video. I hope my own little attempts to break out of the silly mould of "masculine" identity keep building off of this inspiring argument.
Yeah it seems a lot of issues in todays world stem from a complete disregard for peoples emotions and thoughts. Ppl underestimate just howmuch of a social species we are, how integral emotions and thoughts are for a persons entire being. Or how our ability to adapt socially, especially during our youth, greatly greatly effects the rest of our life.
I try to be supportive of my male friends and in general promote seeking to improve ones emotional intelligence, its so freaking helpful.
This was a very informative video that definitely has many of my thoughts running around; much to reflect on. Thank you.
Great video, a lot of good food for thought and things to chew on in here. I'm nonbinary and for the last many years have been grappling with and rejecting popular masculinity and all its toxic elements. I'm grateful for your sharing this "short dip", and this video surely gives me much to continue reflecting on in my journey with and against masculinity.
It's always been interesting to me how they appeal to this universal notion of the traditional, it's a weirdly modern way of thinking. I suppose most of the appeals to tradition are just aesthetic anyway.
Speaking as a middle-aged man, no, masculinity is not in crisis. Sports, superheroes, video games, fitness CZcams, a lot of 'masculine' stuff is still thriving and doesn't look like it's going away anytime soon.
How are the things you just mentioned inherently „masculine“?
@@walterb.3592 You make a good point. Those things I mentioned are ones men's rights groups tend to whine about, but objectively speaking, they aren't inherently 'masculine' or 'feminine', they're just stuff people like.
I was so happy when saw the notification! thank you for another great video!
I really love this video! Definitely will be sharing it around.
It's like that meme. "Masculinity is in crisis? Always has been." Men have been decrying the loss of masculinity for at least hundreds of years. It's boring at this point. It's not masculinity, it's capitalism. It's been capitalism for a while now.
Also I love those jewel tones on you.
Brilliant video as ever! I do think there's one small statistical anomaly that's growing that we must consider as part of this conversation. On average women are today performing better in education and are more likely to be college educated, and as a result of this they're more likely to be higher-earning than their male peers. This is a growing inequity, and it exists generationally as the poisitions are power are still held by elderly men; but this too will likely change increasingly. At the same time as this there are two things taking place is both traditional masculinity and traditional femininity.
1. Men position their own masculinity through the lens that they should be the breadwinner.
2. Straight cis women on average don't want to date or marry men who earn less than them or are perceived to be in a lower social standing.
Now these two ideas create a real crisis, and this is one small way many women need to start reconsidering their own perceptions of men and what is deemed valuable in men. The same statistic doesn't exist to the same extent the other way, men are more willing to date or marry "up". But as more women are in higher positions in society, hopefully eventually to the point of an entirely equal society it means less of the positions they are filling are available for men. And in addition it means those men aren't being considered viable partners due to normative feminine standards; women need to date "up".
But let's say there's a guy called Clive, he's not the brightest spark but he's caring and has a steady job as a gardener, he's reasonably attractive and likes spending time outside. Now he may not be high-earning and may not be college educated, but Clive know's how to throw together a bunch of flowers and he'd make a great dad. But statistically he's less likely to be perceived as a "valuable" man to date. This is a problem that is a hang-on from prior normative gender conventions and it's something we've got to do away with.
Men can collectively let go of the "man must be breadwinner" modum for definition of masculinity better if women don't tacitly hold them to the standard that they must be better off and more educated to be datable. Now I don't know if that's a big ask, and frankly I understand there are complexities here. I just think it's one small part of the puzzle that might be worthy of discussion, even if I'm wrong in some way or there's something I'm missing.
Thanks again for adding to this conversation, you raised some really interesting points.
We can start by declaring as law that women must pay 50/50 on dates.
I think any relationship where there is a significant difference in IQ will be very hard to maintain long-term, regardless of the genders. A person with a 120 IQ is going to look at issues and conflicts very differently than a person with a 100 IQ. I think this gets left out of the conversation way too often.
Thanks for making this! I always love your videos.
I was excited to see something snarky but this just seemed really thoughtful instead. Not disappointed! Best wishes from Florida!
Thanks so much!