The Old Norse in "Vikings"
Vložit
- čas přidán 6. 07. 2023
- An Old Norse linguist analyzes the Old Norse language as used in some scenes in the "Vikings" TV show. The scenes in question can be viewed here: • Old Norse Scenes in Vi...
Jackson Crawford, Ph.D.: Sharing real expertise in Norse language and myth with people hungry to learn, free of both ivory tower elitism and the agendas of self-appointed gurus. Visit jacksonwcrawford.com/ (includes bio and linked list of all videos).
Jackson Crawford’s Patreon page: / norsebysw
Visit Grimfrost at glnk.io/6q1z/jacksoncrawford
Latest FAQs: vimeo.com/375149287 (updated Nov. 2019).
Jackson Crawford’s translation of Hávamál, with complete Old Norse text: www.hackettpublishing.com/the... or www.amazon.com/Wanderers-Hava...
Jackson Crawford’s translation of The Poetic Edda: www.hackettpublishing.com/the... or www.amazon.com/Poetic-Edda-St...
Audiobook: www.audible.com/pd/The-Poetic...
Music © I See Hawks in L.A., courtesy of the artist. Visit www.iseehawks.com/
Logos and channel artwork by Justin Baird. See more of his work at: justinbairddesign.com
This is the video I watched with the Old Norse scenes: czcams.com/video/-EPoGQZbLD0/video.html
would it be possible for you to create a contrived Old Norse sentence full of meter and rhymes and alliteration, then show how the various schools of translation would create it in English? (like being as Old Timey as possible, being as Literal as possible, trying to maintain the poetic elements, etc.) always been curious. thanks
I'm a native Icelander that also speaks bokmål fluently, this is what I thought I heard:
Ek em ásáttr* Hrollleifi. Mik þrái að drepa þá. (ásáttr is an old word for agreement, today Icelanders say "sættast á")
Þær ætla fellu (að) setja nokkura.
Drepum þá, og bindum enda á.
Við kommeðþér. (He's rushing the words, like he forgot to pause between words).
Snara er það.
Förum með þeim.
Nei. >:(
Borðið er mjök vel gjört.
Konur eru (j)ok.
Skål! Drekka? Hmm?
Hver er dáristi? (Who's the fool? (singing), dári = fool)
Þetta fólk sku vera... undarlegt?
Ég reyni að vera alvarlegur.
Gefi ek a halda við erum verða kristnir [????]
Kristinn maTur* það verð ek (mispronounced maður)
Hér er aðalpresturinn þeirra. [Flóki]
Þú predikar í mót goðum várum.
Þú segir það einn mút[????] er
en þú ert lyginn maður og gamal slókur* (here lyginn (lying) is used as an adjective)
Gotin hata svo þig,
en ég hata þig þó meira.
Forgýfeþ* mér ósæm(i)legt tal (I think here his old-english is supposed to be bleeding through with the first word)
en vér erum hér til að setja grið
_ Notes: I noticed that the Swedish actor definitely is leaning a lot towards modern Icelandic pronunciation ("hér er aðalpresturinn þeirra").
slókur = glutton, see "átvagl" this is probably from danish "sluke" (swallow), sluk ("drain"), an obscure word, I only found examples in Icelandic poetry from 1600s
"Einna mest fannst honum um að sletta í slókinn."
The thing he liked most was to splash his "swallower"
Very interesting to me as a modern English speaker who knows some modern German language that I can often understand most and sometimes all of the words in an Old Norse sentence
It's the ultimate flex to say, "I've never seen the show but I am in the DVD extras." 😂
💪💪😂
Perfect comment! 😂
As for the actor you say has the most consistent pronounciation I think that's Travis Fimmel, he's actually Australian, but he was the protagonist for most of the show and he's a really good actor, it makes a lot of sense that he'd be the one putting the most effort into getting a consistent sound since he knew he was going to be on the show for quite a while.
Very happy you made this, my friend! Do more! This kind of this is fascinating, and is really helpful pedagogically: as students, we learn how to improve our ON this way by a lot.
Now we need to see Simon Roper do a breakdown of the Old English scenes in Vikings
The look of pain on your face as you got further into the quotes 😂.
Oh boy your favorite show
I didn't expect to see Admiral Ackbar in this video, but I certainly wasn't disappointed to 😂
Something to remember is that the actors playing the sons of Ragnar actively ape their fathers mannerism. It’s a great acting choice that you can see them making, and they deliberately pronounce things the way Fimmel did it. It’s not even close to relevant to what our Prof is talking about here, but comments are more like a reading group than the lecture of the video 🥸
Hvat segir hann (vad säger han) was one of the few things from the show i understood without thinking as a Swedish speaker
I haven't seen these episodes in several years, but I seem to recall that as a native Swede, the so called "old norse" sounded very much like Swedish/Norwegian with weird accents. I appreciated the effort. :D Since Floki is a Swedish actor (Gustav Skarsgård, of the Skarsgård actor clan ;P), he probably helped with some Swedish words that they used to represent old norse. Just my speculation though.
The accent coach for the show was Irish. Hopefully that’s helpful to to someone.
The international cast may be responsible for the inconsistency across the characters. As well as some individuals putting more effort in than others.
Wish they had some Old Norse in The Last Kingdom series... Old English, too.
the songs in that show are in Faroese the language of the Faroe islands which is the language most near to old norse together with Icelandic.
such a good series though
I am a huge fan of this show. And you haven't insulted anyone by your translations. That cast worked very hard. You actually gave them credit
@Prof. Crawford: The actor that you credit for having the strongest grasp of Old Norse in this scene for this show is the one who played Ragnar Lothbrok
Floki has an interesting monologue in old norse in s5e4, a little over a half hour in. That would be cool to see analyzed. Thank you for sharing your expertise for free.
Fascinating how similar our sentence structures and words still are from that of our viking forebears. "Dräpa" is still in modern Swedish "to slay" for example, and "fylgja" meaning follow, is följa today. I can imagine Skarsgård had the easiest time of it, as I watched the show I even heard him sneak in modern swedish at times probably just to make things easy, who'd know the difference you know haha. As an example when he digs up his fathers grave to get the sword he says "hej pappa", which is just "hi dad" in Swedish. I think it was meant to be old norse also when Floki comments on Aela's table in his hall that "the table is very well made", to me it sounded much like he said "bordet är mycket välgjort" which is modern Swedish but the spelling was Icelandic/old norse in subtitles. Suffice to say as Scandinavian I was surprised to not often need subtitles.
I remember seeing this long ago and I had the same impression. It sounded like a mix of Swedish with old words, and perhaps Norwegian and a bit of Icelandic/Old Norse... :D Didn't need subtitles, but my brain got confused when I wasn't prepared to hear them speak anything but English so I had to rewind to hear what they said. :D
Jeg ville trodd at islendingene på showet hadde det lettere enn Gustav Skarsgård, som man lett kan høre at han ikke kan urnordisk for faen 😅
The actors in this show are largely not from Scandenavia. The lead actor playing Ragnar is Australian, the actor playing Rollo is British, and the actress playing Lagertha is Canadian. Of this main cast, I believe only Floki, played by Gustaf Skarsgård, is Swedish.
Of Ragnar’s generation, the cast is largely not from Scandinavia. However, that changes when the next generation, his sons are grown-up. Many cast members come from the Nordic countries in seasons 4B-6B: Both Hvitserk and Ivar’s actors are Danish, Freydis, Margret and Sigurd Swedish, Harald and Halfdan Finnish, Gunnhild Icelandic. To name just a few of the main cast members. I’d be interested to know how they fared compared to the non-Nordic cast members.
But who they really are genetically, assuming they're not native Australian and Canadian?
@@melodi996 your genes don't effect how well you can speak a language.
@@hircenedaelen ofc, it was a question about their looks, not language.
@@melodi996 oh, in that case, without spending too long looking into it, the Canadian probably a mix of British and French, the Australian probably British again, and the British actor will have a mix of celtic, nordic, Anglo-Saxon, and Norman genes depending on which part of the country their from
You can hear the pain in Dr Crawford’s voice 😭
I think it should also be noted (from behind the scenes, for example) that they intentionally used words in swedish and norwegian due to them either being easier to say or also to represent regional dialects in the show
Which was a daft choice, since many of the words they chose are Low German loans from the Hanseatic period, long after the viking age!
@@talitek indeed
@@talitekinteresting. Can you give examples? I'm swedish so your comment awoke my interest.
@@harambe8372in the clips Dr Crawford went over here, the only one that stuck out to me was "rikta" which is probably meant to be something like riktig, which is a loan from middle low German "richtich". Contemporary norse would have had "rétta". It's plausible the actor just misspoke here though.
It's worth noting that all the North germanic languages are rife with low German loans (sans Icelandic which removed most during the 1800s). Common examples from Norwegian (sorry, I don't speak Swedish!) include betale, bevis, and other words that begin with be-, an-, or er-, most words that begin with for-, å skje (as in, to happen, native *henda*), å bli (to become, native *verða*), billig (cheap, i don't know the native word but I'd guess it'd be derived from *kaup*, jf. English).
@@talitekThe Swedish word "rikta" means "aim" or "point" in English depending on the sentence.
Gustaf Skarsgård is a Swedish actor who you mentioned was pronouncing like he's speaking Swedish. The character of Rollo was intended to be the (eventual) Frankish king Rollo which may be why they pronounced it that way.
I am by no means an expert, but from what I can tell, in the dining scene when Floki says
"This table is very well made" he says something like "Borðit er mjök vel gjört".
Also when Ragnar says "I'm trying to be serious" I believe he says "Ek reyna að vera alvarlegur".
On the whole I really enjoyed this video! I love when shows try to incorporate language contempory to the period, even though it usually ends up really strange sounding and mostly incorrect :)
"alvarlegur" is modern icelandic, I'd say. The -ur ending.
@@Fridtjuv Youre right that was my mistake, in general though it just kind of seems like a weird mix.
Ah, Mr. Crawford enganging with the muggles and their mysterious ways. Always a pleasure! Subbed on Patreon! Cant wait to dive into the language!
I would be interested in your commentary on The Northman....
Just found Cowboy Hàvamàl and I gotta say, that was cool man.
He has some additional commentary on the Northman if you searched his videos, although to my knowledge he hasn't come out and done anything that has specifically to do with the spoken language
czcams.com/video/679oLpzZkGw/video.html
@@paulhood7316 Noted, thanks!
I.m from the north's country's. Sweden , Dalarna, Våmhus we always like my oldermother (-70) write in RUNS. She learned me,
I've hopped on the channel on and off since i was in high school a few years ago, and coming back a few months later on i see the very video I've been longing for since then! :D
My guess is that they had an Icelander on staff and they asked him to translate a few dialogues and tutor the actors. In a hurry.
This is a pretty fair assessment to make. I do know the actors were actually told to mimic(do an impression of) the accent of the director of the first 2 episodes(who was Scandinavian, I believe) when doing the accents or speaking old Norse. So what you're saying is probably pretty close to what actually happened.
Great, as always.
Oh, my favourite series❤❤❤
I haven't seen it either, but it's still nice to hear about it.
Came for the old norse. Stayed for the admiral ackbar reference.
Thanks Doc
Regarding "bíð" as "wait" in the section after "it's a trap" - I assume that's the root of "bide"? In "English English" it's usually used as part of a phrase like "bide your time", but in Scottish English it's more directly used as a synonym for "wait". Since a lot of Scotland has been variously Scandinavian over the centuries I'd guess this is one of those words?
15:55 could be that he isn't saying "Godina" there, could be he's just saying "Godin hata..." very fast and the h is lost since he's speaking so fast
More content like this! 👏🏻🔥
Yees been wanting this.
5:30 No he is an Aussie. (Australian).
Travis Fimmel, born near Echuca, Victoria on a dairy farm. He played Ragnar Lothbrok.
I think they brought in many people for trying to translate old norse and old English so I think this is where there is a difference in slang as I call it because it's not all consistent so I bet each person who was translating it took from Icelandic and tried to understand old norse vowels but it's a common mistake even myself didn't realize 4 years ago I was spelling thor and odin wrong my whole life so it's possible anyways thanks for sharing your thoughts with this it was very informative
Please do a video of old east norse!
Thank you.
Dr. Jackson, it would be really fine (and I believe pretty clickbait) if you made a video on songs in Old Norse (or maybe other languages?), for I presume sone of them may in fact be gibberish.
4:10 there is one or two Icelanders in the Viking series and some Danes and Germans as well.
The guy under the table is Swedish.
Have you ever seen the show Norsemen? A Norwegian comedy show about a norse village
took me a while to realize you had to transliterate what they were saying... can't really blame non-icelandic actors for not knowing how to pronounce old nor current icelandic but damn that must've been a pain to transliterate lol
"Hvat segir hann?" Was one of the only sentences I could understand as a modern Swedish speaker. There are words and phrases I can undertstand later, but mostly it's gibberish to me. Although I will point out that "Dräp" which is older Swedish for Kill and it's pretty close to "Dräpa". I could understand that word in the series, so I bet it's pretty close.
As a Dane I understod about the same. How do you have it with modern Icelandic as a swede? I don't understand that much to be honest, some words here and there, but I do however understand a fair bit of Faroes and I think that most Scandinavians would understand much more Faroes than they actually thought they would.
@@ole7146 I struggle a lot with Icelandic. Like, I probably understand even less than this. I would've thought that you as a dane would have a better understanding? Isn't Icelandic closer to Danish than Swedish?
3:32 ooh a callout
2:12 I didn't know he had participated in the show, does anyone know more about his involvement?
hi old norse specialist dr jackson crawford!
*Snare* in norwegian is typically used for an animal trap, another word we use for it is *felle.*
I tried looking for it but couldn't find it (maybe because I'm stupid, not far fetched), but have you seen the "Icelandic Westerns" 'Hrafninn flýgur' and 'Í skugga hrafnsins'?
I loved especially the first ones, it was a new thing at the time and felt closer to home than other action movies.
I'm just curious what you think about them. Not as films about your area of great knowledge, but more about entertainment for us young Scandinavians, thirsting for something closer to our countries than ninjas and cowboys.
Pardon my English, any mistakes I make are my own.
You should be a consultant. Seriously. I know some Latin and I'm astounded how so many tv shows get it wrong, the pronunciation mostly.
I was under the impression Rollo is the english version of Hrólfur ?
Might be he just made a mistake, because I thought so too. Maybe he got mixed up since Hrólfr is shortened from Hróðólfr which kinda similar to Hróðleifr. I could be completely wrong though.
The woman who played Gunhild is icelandic
Fun fact. Wednesday when slightly rearranged would be Swedenday.
Thank you for doing this. I'm sure it was rather painful for you :-D
The most bizarre part for me is that they show Ragnar Lodbrok as just a farmer that becomes a great warrior. He should be the son of King of Sweden Sigurd Ring? Also the Scandinavians call their chiefs Earl, that’s English? Shouldn’t it be Jarl?
I'd like to go viking on all of these unskippable Temu ads!
Have you seen the Beforeigners? It’s another to comment on the old Norse
Was just about to mention. That's like 2 seasons of norse scenes. Id be really curious to know his opinion of it . They did have some sort of experts on the show, so I assume its as close as it gets? Was a pretty fun show .
*Hvar* sounds like the norwegian word for *hvor* (bokmål) and/or *kvar* (nynorsk), meaning *where* in english. 🤔
Jackson Crawford is my favorite anime waifu
Your friend sent you something from “Vikings”? Are you sure he’s your friend?
Since I’m no expert of Norse language like Jackson, the first time I watched the show language problem didn’t strike me, but my problem about the show is that, as a story strongly based on Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, Norse Sagas and made by “History” channel, why did they have to make Rollo Ragna’s brother? They can’t make a show based on history materials as a “history” channel? That always puzzles me, so I can’t bear to watch it.
I mean, this show is basically danes living in a Denmark that looks a lot like Norway, speaking a weird version of old norse, that doesn't resemble what would've been the beginnings of danish splitting off from old norse. Also, let's ignore that the characters based on real people, wouldn't have met and wouldn't have taken part in the events that they are shown in, in the show. Best example is Ragnar Lodbrok leading the raid on Lindisfarne in the show.
I wonder what do you think of the actors specific accent and pronunciation when they speak English. I guess this technique is supposed to remind us that it was actually Old Norse. It's just weird, and I don't know how they made it up.
Vinland Saga next pretty please.
Just an fyi my man, Travis Fimmel (Ragnar) is australian so he has that accent
thanks for doing this, I find it very helpful, As at least I have something to relate it too . Not just " theory" but more like explained in relation to something I am familiar with.
Suggestion, idk if this is feasible but:
1 - do more of these, keep them simple, with easy, general guidelines for popular consumption
2- make a companion video slightly more in depth for the more linguistically inclined
3 - make a video for premium members only going more in depth
separate: do a collaboration with someone who can add culture and historical insights to these vids.
or only 1 & 3?
Anyway Thanks so much.
Þann níðing skyldi drepa er þröngvaði Jackson Crawford til áhorfs á engilsaxneska víkingasápu þessa! 😉
Leirburðurinn beðmafestur,
dreyrflengdur atlestur,
kúdrengrinn gysgestur.
Jónson Krákuvað hét maður . . .
Drauger in Skyrim is probably the reason for the weird to kill
Can't be. No one took an arrow to the knee. 😁
jackson i love you but please film somewhere where theres lesser wind.
Never saw the show. The few adverts I’ve seen didn’t make me feel like the show is/was particularly historical or culturally accurate. Am I misjudging?
Yay!
this is hilarious, thank you :-D :-D
One of my favorite episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer is the one with a flashback to Anya the revenge demon's origin.
Anya was originally a woman living in viking age Sweden, and the idea was to have the non swedish actors read their lines in swedish, and then (poorly) dubbing it with bad english voice actors. You know, like a kung fu movie or something.
So the actors memorized all of the alleged Swedish words phonetically and were just chewing the dialogue with gusto to have the mouth movements. It was never supposed to be heard in the final show.
But it was kept in, because it was just too funny.
It's hilariously bad.
_Buffy the Vampire Slayer S7 e5 Selfless_
One might think that someone that deals with languages would know hard to record a properly good audio...
I can't imagine that Anglo-Saxons and Danes could understand their languages as badly as in this film series.
I did a cursory search and the only things I could find about who did the ON translations and the main dialect coach were the following:
Translations: Erika Sigurdson, an Old Norse specialist
Dialect Coach: Poll Moussoulides
Dr. Kate Wiles from Leeds University did the Old English translations.
I could find Mr. Moussoulides and Dr. Wiles referenced on other sites, but no other references to Ms. Sigurdson.
🤷
The "Sigurdson" as last name would mean she is not Icelandic, as it would be Sigurdsdottir (Sigurd's Daughter), so she is probably Swedish (in Danish it would be "Sigurdsen"). However, her name would have two S (Sigurd's Son = Sigurdsson), so she could also be American with nordic ancestry, as they tend to shorten the spelling to only one S in -son names. Then her pronunciation would be screwed up, as Americans can't pronounce our vowels correctly.
@@Darkurge666 Since I don't know her or the situation she had to deal with, I will not disparage her contribution. It's possible she did just fine and things just changed. It happens.
Besides, your last name doesn't preclude you from being able to speak or learn other languages, so her name not being spelled as you might expect is irrelevant.
@@Darkurge666 Erika Sigurdson is most likely a so-called West Icelander, that is, a Canadian with Icelandic ancestry. Her PhD thesis from University of Leeds (2012) has the title "The Church in Fourteenth-Century Iceland: The Formation of an Elite Clerical Identity" if it's the correct Erica Sigurdson.
I wonder if some of the mispronunciation comes from the actors having to sound menacing etc. and some sounds, like authentic outfits not looking or sounding 'right' to a modern audience.
When I was starting my MA program in Iceland, one of my instructors informed me that another faculty member of ours got ahold of the people (at least one of them) responsible for the ancient languages in an attempt to give them some guidance, but apparently they intended them to sound brutish and ignored her advice.
Actor is an Aussie, 'mate'.
Drekk 🍺
It all sounds like an honest mess from your analysis of it.
"prestinn" is also a word that comes from a Christian background, from Latin and ultimately Greek.
Góðan dag aðal drengr!!!
I got such a laugh out of this video. Now I have a pretty good idea what I look like reading lady writers using Google Translate for any language I read and speak well. You can ALWAYS tell when they use it, always, because it translates word by word and there is no grammar, syntax in it. I begged a writer today to just stop trying to use foreign language in her books because it was god awful and I took me continuously out of the story.
This reminds me of that one audiobook I listened to in which there were bits of dialogue in Hungarian, but the guy reading the book hadn't done even the most basic research on its pronunciation 🤯 It hurt. I was so mad. (The book was in Polish and trust me it's not such a big feat for a Polish speaker to get a grip on Hungarian sounds)
I liked the series, but I think The History Channel could have done better.
Of Ragnar’s generation, the cast is largely not from Scandinavia. However, that changes when the next generation, his sons are grown-up. Many cast members come from the Nordic countries in seasons 4B-6B: Both Hvitserk and Ivar’s actors are Danish. Freydis, Margrete and Sigurd Swedish. Harald and Halfdan Finnish. Gunnhild Icelandic. To name just a few of the main cast members. I’d be interested to know how they fared compared to the non-Nordic cast members.
Harald is not not played by a Finnish actor but by a Finland Swedish one, Peter Franzén.
Too bad they didn't hire Icelandic actors for all the main speaking roles, then at least you'd have consistent pronunciation from actor to actor.
Most of it sounds like old Danish
Draupa sounds more murdery, dangerous and badass than drepa, which sounds weaker and more like hanging a damp shirt on a clothing line. Draupa sticks out and is therefore more effective at communicating the intention and emotions of the scene. I do some con-lang and I do this thing where I choose the most appropriate sounding wording for specific important words like death, murder, light, sacred etc. to make the word really feel effective. I think this is what the filmmakers were going for, if they had any sense, that is.
I wish we could import real vikings from the past to watch the show 'Vikings' for a "Vikings react" video on youtube. 🤣
But I guess they would need quality old norse subtitles... 🤔
I think the story is set to about 900, and translations into Old Norse usually means 13th century Icelandic. The sound of real Norse spoken around 900 would probably be characterised by many nasal vowels which are absent in 13th century Icelandic. A bit like telling Portugese apart from Spanish even if you don't know the languages.
I think the more likely and simple explanation here is that the actors and language specialists dropped the ball rather than supposing that they actually went further back than 13th century Icelandic and tried to reconstruct the accurate sound and language of 10th century Old Norse. I trust Crawford to know what he’s talking about here.
Also hard to tell when the story is set because they mash together so many different historical events into one lifetime and family, but the majority of the scenes in this video are the show’s depiction of the raid on Lindisfarne so that would be late 8th century of memory serves rather than the 10th century.
It's a cool idea and I had fun watching it, but man you literally needed 100 seconds tops to google the countries of origin of the actors who play the main characters
Icelandic = Ecclesiastic Norse.
First!
Congratulations!