Why Excelsior lasted so long
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- čas přidán 7. 07. 2024
- #startrek #scifi #theory
This video became MUCH longer than I intended it to be when I started making it. But its done now, and I have made peace with the pact that sometimes my ability to get to the point fails me. Anyway today we are talking about why Excelsior was so successful, and why it stuck around in service for so long. I calso go off on a few tangents talking about real world examples of things which had lasted a long time, and the reasons why.
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All images used under FAIR USE, images used for educational purposes, I do not own all the images used in this video, though some are original works by myself. I do not own the properties depicted, nor do I claim or imply I own or have any stake in them. - Hry
I never thought of Star Trek 3 as painting the Excelsior herself in a bad light. Captain Styles on the other hand...
agreed I saw it as just the old crew having thier own opinions on the brand new ship, and like Scotty said it was easier to sabotage the ship without causing any real harm by making a minor change.
Absolutely, Styles was a pompous jerk. Excelsior... she's a beaut. I like the Connie refit better, but it is a pretty close race.
Agreed. When I was watching it as a kid when it originally came out, I always had the thought that it was a cooler ship but its captain was a tool. Scotty did a little engineering magic by "stopping up the drain" (as it were) when he removed the control chips for the transwarp drive computer. Though, that does strike me as a little odd given the constant diagnostics the ships do. That would have shown up fairly fast on a critical system.
It would be equivalent to removing the isolinear chips in Main Engineering on Enterprise-D. It's not going to go unnoticed for very long and certainly in less time than it showed up in the movie. But, dramatic effect and plot armor protect Kirk's crew there as is intended.
Styles' arrogance was his biggest problem. Excelsior was a great ship and I'm glad Hikaru Sulu (video author pronounced his first name wrong) got his own command there. (VOY: Flashback was a love letter to Excelsior and Sulu, I think.)
@@IamJustJ. it was it was Sulu at the helm of the Excelsior. Knowing Scotty it wouldnt surprise me if that message was part of his override of a detection system, also he was in his cabin meaning at best it was likely a skeleton crew looking at something that was likely never expected to happen.
They gave her some funny sound effects, specifically the sputtering sound when she breaks down due to Scotty's sabotage. That's what made her look like some old jalopy.
The first Nimitz class carrier was launched in 1972, the last one in 2009. Each ship is projected to serve for 50 years, so the last is scheduled to leave service in 2059 - at which point the design will be 87 years old. So it doesn't seem like such a stretch that ships of the Excelsior class would still be in service in the TNG era, which is set about 80 years after the TOS movies.
Not entirely disagreeing with you…. But i am going to point out that with the Nimitz class there are three subclasses where the class went through significant design changes…. Some changes which were retroactively refitted to earlier models…..
I also must point out that their is ONE aircraft carrier that is a kissing cousin to the sisterhood of nimitz classes…. CV67 the JFK while nominally a Kitty Hawk Class it is a subclass that has many design similarities to the early Nimitz class…. Specifically the “coke bottle “ shape of the flight deck forward of the bridge…. As opposed to the Hunchback of every supercarrier before it
@@MrSheckstr I'd expect the same sort of thing to happen in the st universe. They even had episodes where the plotline was a retrofit.
Ships n starships have one thing in common; they can n should be seen as platforms; Starship operated in space; Even though there's no corrosion in space they sud last for v v long time; N if they are modular n can be upgraded n updated they will last
Hence the excelsior should last very long as capital ship would be hard to built in any century
USN’s USS Eisenhower is now 49 years old and has just competed her deployment to the Red Sea.
@@MrSheckstr Sure, but I think it's safe to say that the Excelsiors of the TNG era are significantly different to the Excelsiors of Sulu's time as well. Still the same class but with upgraded technology, just like the later Nimitz variants.
Excelsior is basically the B-52 of starships: rugged, over engineered, big. This lets its adapt new technologies as they mature.
What would that make the Defiant?
@@STSWB5SG1FAN
Over engineered and small.
Definitely not rugged due to how often it broke down.
Definitely not big.
@@STSWB5SG1FAN B-58 hustler.
Good analogy
Now whenever I see an Excelsior I'm gonna hear Grandpa Buff's voice in my head.😅
Excelsior turned out to be the Trek version of the Nimitz class carrier. A solid frame that proved it could be upgraded to be a valuable asset long past it's expected service life.
"People are afraid of change." Trust me, I heard a lot of this in the Navy whenever a new class was approved and built and all the old salts would automatically naysay it.
And I cannot confirm nor deny the pains of muchly needed replacement classes being years/decades behind schedule and over budget. I think the whole thing was a good representation of what we in the military deal with. :)
Exactly spot on.
And then they put the LCS into service, and the old salts were right.
Yeah the military can be afraid of change but lately as far as the Navy is concerned the concerns were right LCS and Zumwalt are great examples of that. Now I serve in the Navy and came from the Army and one thing I respect is new innovation because we need to constantly adapt to new threats. However we need to temper our expectations of technology and also be able to accommodate proven ones because like those two examples I have state is product of putting too much emphasis on imagined tech not being scrutinized and proven and making an entire design based off that thinking. The Arleigh Burkes worked because they made those ship advanced but also kept enough proven tech that should those innovations fail she can use existing weapons systems that's the balance.
@@808INFantry11X It's okay to use sentences and periods.
@@808INFantry11X So true. Then again, I came from a program that would not adapt new technology until a certain admiral was rolled out and laid to rest in his grave.
Ah, the ship that witnessed the end of Kirk's Era, took charge during the Lost Era and met us on the other side with a new generation of icons. The stories that class could tell. But won't...
Awesome video. The Excelsior is a really nice ship. As you said, her role may have changed but she still looks good in both timeframes... plus she gives a sense of scale to compare both Enterprises. I've said before that showing your personality at the end of the video is fantastic. It lets us connect with you, your passions and the video itself. We can see and hear a little about what has gone into making the video and that's so important.
Here's my theory. The peace with the Klingons resulted in a massive demilitarization of Starfleet and a huge number of ships being either mothballed or cannibalized for parts. The reason why the Miranda, Oberth, Constellation and Excelsior class were still going by the 2370s was that they had the spares to make them last. Moreover, the peace required Starfleet not to excessively innovate, or the Klingons would be forced to match any new technology. Thus, the entire Fleet basically stagnated for 70 years as the price for peace. The so-called 'new excelsiors' built after the 2290s were old patters filled up with reserve tech.
That's pretty good...
The Douglas DC-3 is still in service today because of its reliability, affordability, and ruggedness. The DC-3 was originally designed to be an economical passenger plane for commercial airlines. It first flew in 1935 and was mass-produced, with the last one built in 1946. Although its last commercial flight was in 1952, hundreds of DC-3s are still in use today, mainly for cargo and charter flights. The Boeing B-52 Stratofortress has been in service for over 70 years and is still considered one of the world's strongest bombers because of its high subsonic performance, low operating costs, and unique capabilities.
The same thing could be true for the Excelsior-class starship. The ship--designed to be the platform for the transwarp drive--was *seriously* overbuilt. As a result,the Excelsior was easily modified to accommodate the latest technologies and could survive the toughest battles and the highest warp speeds. Because of this,the Excelsior class is very likely to transport the crews of newer ships back home,should those ships be destroyed. Indeed, there's ample evidence of a direct line of descent from the Excelsior, to the Sovereign, the Obena,all the way to the Excelsior II,all expected to be the backbone of Starfleet for decades,even centuries to come.
I loved the Excelsior at the first sight of her shapely self.
I immediately thought of the B-52 as soon as you mentioned the idea of real-world comparisons.
Scotty disliked the Exelsiour for two reasons. 1. It was a new design, one that he felt unnecessary. 2. His beloved Constitution class was being retired and decomissioned. So naturally he was antagonistic towards it..
Atleast that is my take on it.
Yes, the 'Up your shaft', remark from Scotty was classic.
However he did say, Enterprise B, was 'fine', in Generations.
Take care, and all the best.
I don’t think Scotty disliked the designed so much as the engines on that design. Remember, he’s an engineer and he’s thinking engines…. and her engine was a complicated piece of crap…. and he knew it.
@@christophersnyder1532Of course, Enterprise B was one of a dozen Enterprise-class upgrades to the Excelsior which mounted Federation cloaking devices (hence the new fin-grills and bulge on the engineering hull).
And I know what you’re thinking: ‘What in the hell is this guy talking about…? The Federation never mounted cloaking devices on their ships?!’ Lol Check out VenomGeekMedia’s episode on the Tomed Incident. Trust me… it’s some of the best startrek you’ve come across in fking years.
@@miamijules2149 I think the reason why he hated the Excelsior is because Captain Styles was flexing with breaking speed records set by the Enterprise with the ill-fated Transwarp drive. He didn't hate the class or the ship itself really, and let's not forget that the Enterprise-B was basically a refit Excelsior-class ship, with the Enterprise-C looking more like the Enterprise-A with the Ambassador-class.
The real reason is budget and they had a excelsior model and that's what they used.
That is the real world explanation. But that makes for a boring video
The excelsior itself wasnt the villian, the captain of the excelsior was the actual villain in that scene. I feel like the excelsior was effectively the "perfect" generalized design for a federation ship, so even if they did make new ships the excelsior's frame would still be a viable hull. I always seen the Soverign as a ship that built on the strengths of the excelsior's role as a cruiser.
I've always loved the Excelsior class, but not the refit. The class has an air of elegance about it that, to me, wasn't beat until the Sovereign class.
It gives me the same vibes as dreadnought battleships from the early 1900s. Burly, not to be messed with, but very elegant and emotive. Constitution always made me think of something like the tall ships such as USS Constitution or HMS Victory. Just pure beauty in motion.
@@starshipreviews, how could you possibly associate the word "elegant" with a turn of the century dreadnought?
My perception is opposite; the graft they did on the secondary hull made the ship much more interesting and less clumsy ( the original secundary hull looks like a tube of toothpaste that has been squeezed too much). However the extra impulse engines, which are in front of the Bussard collectors, just don't make sense.
Kirk: "Come, come, Mr. Scott. Young minds, fresh ideas. Be tolerant." I feel like that pretty much ends debate on whether it was supposed to be positive or not. It's just new, and Scotty doesn't like it because it's new. It's the next evolution in starship design, and Kirk knows that and supports it.
I think Kirk was just resigned to the inevitable. Also teasing poor Scotty. As a professional he did kind of have to support the Excelsior.
In universe the Excelsior class lasted over 100 years because there was a excess of prefabricated Hall's that was produced and left in storage like a lot of unsold cars and by design it was easy to swap out old dated tech for new update's and refits.
With the large number of hulls , there had to be signficant work into refits and retrofits and those additions could easily be reused across the fleet. The large numbers also makes it easy to use spares test bed for non-critical new technologies. USS Lakota for instance had quantum torpedoes and newer hardware.
Besides a corridor inside a building, what is a hall?
@@Species5008 He means hull not hall.
@@voss0749 Excelsior class with quantum torpedoes; Yup that's a killer combo; (Maybe even upgrade new engine similar to defiant that would b awesome.)
Funny how a ship of Kirk’s era saw more longevity than literally any ship designed from the TNG era. The closest we’ve seen on that front would likely be the Sovereign class, or Akira. Still being prominently active 25 years after their rollout in ST Picard.
You’d think as technology advances, so would the lifespan of starships.
The Galaxy class was projected to have a 100 year lifespan, but with the Borg and Dominion threats technology swiftly outpaced it. Conversely the Defiant, Akira and Sovereign’s were rushed into service by a desperate Starfleet and didn’t have time to mature the new technology before being rushed off the slips.
Your summary makes perfect sense. The Excelsior class was also well ahead of its time when it was first built. Its size combined with a rugged, robust space frame meant it would be put in space on the front line of Starfleet service for many decades from the beginning. It was refitted and upgraded with more advanced technology many times. In fact, many admirals chose an Excelsior class starship as their fleet flagship. I think that speaks to the utility these ships had for a long time and the love for them that their commanders and crews practiced. The Excelsior class starship is like a fine, classic automobile or a bottle of fine, aged wine. It is timeless and ubiquitous at once with a service life that should be the envy of any other class. She is a ship of beauty representing the federation in space with distinguished elegance.
It's interesting because I totally agree it supposed to be new. Ironically what makes it work is the the Excelsior while a new design uses many proven technologies up until that point that made it so she can adapt to new changes but in case those new innovations fail she can easily use current proven tech. It's probably why she has been in use for so long.
As an Industrial Designer, the Excelsior is the best looking ship in the Star Trek universe
I've mentioned this in several posts I've made, but the Excelsior class was way ahead of its time.
I'm not talking about the "great experiment," I don't know if transwarp drive would have worked or not.
But it had more power than the Connie and better shields.
This was the first Starfleet ship to be equipped with "bubble" shields.
The Connie had screens... they called them shields to save time 😄.
Screens were energy emitted along the hull to absorb damage. That can be seen in The Undiscovered Country.
When the Enterprise was hit, the hull was scarred but not penatrated.
When the Excelsior was hit, it got jostled, but no hull damage.
The ship was in fact designed to be unliked. It was meant to encapsulate then modern technology design languages that the designers didnt appreciate. Its was meant to be ugly, but the fans fell in love with it.
The Excelsior was ultimately one of the most ‘upgradable’ ships the Federation would ever field (namely because it was just so damn big compared to everything else in its era). In fact, by the time the Enterprise-Class sub variants came out with the Federation cloaking devices installed, it was the Federation’s main deterrent against the Romulan’s ‘Strategic Strike’ doctrine.
*If you’re saying to yourself ‘this guy is crazy…. cloaking devices on Federation ship? Enterprise-Class upgrades? What the hell?!’ Then go check out VenomGeekMedia’s episode The Tomed Incident and get ready for one helluva video.
The Excelsior class is a pretty chonky ship, even with the shields down, can take multiple hits.
you could have included the KC-135 tanker. many of them have been in service since the early 1960s
Really there are an alarming number of real world examples, especially in the aeronautical and maritime fields...but I had to cut off the video somewhere.
You could say the same about the Abrams Tank, or also up until recently, the Hummer. Both have been in service for almost half a century. While the Hummer is being phased out in favor of the Oshkosh. The abrams tanks are being redesigned and refitted With modern technologies. Reliable vehicle frame with upgraded power plant , weapons, Armor and guidance.
My personal head-canon for the reason that Scotty didn't like the Excelsior was due to several key redundancies being removed for the sake of "efficiency" (as evidenced by him removing a handful of chips to cripple it), and "evolved technologies" not working as intended, with the Engineering and Operations Divisions being blamed for it (like the holographic communications device on the U.S.S. Enterprise crippling the ship in STD). When Captain Sulu took command, he would have been aware of the problems from Scotty and used some of the internal volume to add the necessary redundancies and invited the inventors of "evolved technologies" to come aboard for the testing phase to iron out the problems.
He didn't like it because it was stealing his beloved Enterprise's thunder. The end.
There was another factor. In the original script Sulu was given command of the Excelsior but because he volunteered to go on the training mission with Kirk and Enterprise. Excelsior was given to Styles. Styles was once an antagonistic navigator in the show Balance of Terror. So there’s was and existential antagonism and resentful feeling. I’m not certain but I believe that’s also revealed in the novelization of Search for Spock.
Not the same styles
@@voss0749 positive?
@jeffhallam2004 According to Memory Alpha, Captain Styles' full name was Lawrence H. Styles.
Lieutenant Styles' first name was Andrew, according to the script.
So yeah, they appear to be different characters who just happen to share a name (sadly).
@@BrokenCurtain ok thanks
Wait what? Styles is that guy in Balance of Terror?! Nahhhhh…. no way….
So the Buff so old but advanced thanks to the infomation I learned I made a joke in my scifi setting that the B-52 still existed in 22th century as an early FTL fighter craft
"Grandpa BUFF, we have a new list of upgrades."
"What's a photon torpedo?"
@kaneo1 is that a habitual line crosser reference?
@@starshipreviews yes it is
@SuperGamefreak18 awesome
@@starshipreviews afterall hes a good source of knowledge for military tech
Here's my take, it boils down to a superior space frame. The Constitution's number one weak spot was that skinny neck. It just HAD to suffer massive stresses when maneuvering at warp or impulse. Modern jet fighters tend to get scrapped after 20 or 30 years because the wing frames are stressed and are too costly to be replaced in most cases. Excelsior on the other hand has a big fat thick neck that can absorb a lot more abuse and endure greater stresses. It would also explain why Miranda hung around so long, it was a solid space frame with only small stress points to deal with. To keep a Constitution in service much past 20 years would likely require full replacement of the neck and any associated joints with the engineering section. That's major work and likely just not worth it.
I would not relay too much onto the mechanical stresses theory, because they have artificial gravity + inertial damping tech. The inertial damping is used also to ensure hull integrity, not only for making the crew tolerate the enormous inhuman acceleration factors.
@@emanemanrus5835 yes they have that but how many times was that stuff shot away or just failed? How many times were they stressed beyond tolerances? Its better to eliminate stress points than shore them up.
@@madrabbit9007 well, this may be a point. By the way, if I had the Trek tech available to me, I would invest more and more effort in making the inertial dampers and hull integrity field generators higly redundant (x2, x3 ... )
@@emanemanrus5835 for a civilian sip you could rely on that stuff alone but a ship that has to go to war, you want fool proof redundancy.
I didn't like the look of it at first. It grew on me as time went on.
The Excelsior was a highly advanced, colossal ship in its day, and would remain an iconic big ship well into the 24th C. As a result of the Khitomer Accords, fleet strength was probably limited in many ways, which kept the Excelsior on top. Personally, I think the Excelsior might have remained a somewhat rare ship with Miranda and Miranda variants being built in the late 23C, early 24C and kept in service, with Excelsiors and Excelsior variants built in greater numbers in the early and mid 24C.
The large scale of the Constellation Class seems more like a utility starship which might have avoided treaty issues. Likewise, the much larger Ambassador Class name sort of says it all... A capital ship, an elite explorer with advanced weapons arrays, but ton for ton, less potent than the now comparatively small Excelsior.
The greater scaled ships of the Galaxy designs seems to have started small with the New Orleans or Freedom classes, and leading up to the also very large scaled Nebula and Galaxy classes. But again, they are using advanced weaponry to make up for LESS weaponry. In many respect, they are indeed office buildings in space. Their offensive capabilities were deliberately set rather low in the 'mutipurpose mix'. Indeed, I've wondered if the New Orleans class was found to be just dangerously TOO unarmed, and that the photon torpedo pods were later additions to the design. The Galaxy Class full spread torpedo launcher being a similar design correction to raise the punch power of what was to be Starfleet's premier class of starships.
Large, relatively low armed ships made sense in an era of a long, stable peace where efficiency and diplomacy was more prized than offensive capabilities. For a long, long time, the Excelsior class was THE heavy cruiser that everyone associated as Starfleet's 'muscle ship', perhaps even more than the much larger Ambassador Class, which were far fewer in number. With tech updates, I don't think that the Excelsior class was ever seen as a joke until the Dominion War. Doubtlessly, their effectiveness was starting to slip by mid century, but were still regarded as the 'old heavy cruisers' as the 'big stick' of Starfleet, even if they weren't that big any more.
It's not a surprise that Starfleet was able to quickly generate much more offensive ship classes like the Defiant, Akira, Prometheus, and Sovereign. Starfleet and the Federation had nerfed themselves for decades, with offensive technologies being researched mostly in small scale, but rarely proceeding even to a prototype stage. With the scare of the Borg and then the Dominion, Starfleet didn't have to completely start from scratch, as they had far more offensive tech and designs locked away. Of course, taking that tech, building it, and working out bugs still took years to bring to fruition.
Dude your comment is long as hell…. and I loved every damn bit of it. That said, I’m sure one or two who came across the Lakota said to themselves: ‘well there’s something you don’t see everyday!’
@@miamijules2149 Thank You much! The Excelsior class kept cropping up in the shows, even through the Dominion War, so they couldn't have been that unusual of a sight. The Lakota herself showing that Starfleet was quite willing to upgrade them. Heh, for that matter, there were still Mirandas in play during the Dominion War, mostly getting blown up. Excelsior class ships seemed to also get themselves humbled and beat up, that fate of what was now a mid-sized ship using an old design, I suppose. But we also saw far newer, larger or meaner ships get beat up in some of those battles as well.
When an existential war broke out, the old martial cruiser was just too useful and common to be phased out. In large part because Galaxy class-like designs were too nerfed for serious warfare when Starfleet didn't have the advantage. Pity the personnel on the Mirandas! Again, the remaining Miranda class ships were probably just too common and too needed NOT to find their way into battle.
@@larqven0192 you fight a war with the military you have. At least the Federation in the Dominion War was thinking straight. They started the war way before the Dominion was ready for a war. They were not letting ideals get in the way of survival.
@@angelrivera2339 I agree. They, in no small measure 'they' being Sisko; didn't listen to the Dominion diplomatic BS. The thing is, Starfleet supposedly doesn't HAVE warships. What that means is that Starfleet has multirole utility ships with varying mixes of purposes, of which weapons is generally shortchanged. The more martial starships were old, like the Miranda and Excelsior, but they were old enough to be obsolete against a very serious threat. Meanwhile, newer ships, particularly the Galaxy-like designs had more advanced weaponry, but those weaponry was a smaller piece of the allotment pie.
With the Federation as the dominant power, it made sense that they avoided any undue saber-rattling. But they had the capacity to quickly buff up current designs like the 'Galaxy war-version', and develop true warships in a fairly short time. However, the problem was that Starfleet wasn't dealing with a lesser empire, but a militant empire that was larger and in many ways more technically advanced than the Federation. Starfleet had to attack sooner rather than later, because time actually hurt them rather than helped them. Mirandas and Excelsiors were too common to be held back, and were more martial in design than newer starships despite being old and smaller ships.
Adding to this, without the threat of the Borg having already pushed Starfleet towards a tactical footing, the Federation probably would not have won.
No you weren't supposed to dislike the excelsior. It was a challenge to Kirk going rouge. They were the parents telling the kids not to sneak out the window. Which is why they were sabotaged rather than her and the enterprise fighting
I've never liked the Excelsior design. I thought it resembles a bloated warthog. But my option of the way it looks doesn't make it a bad design. Every fleet needs a good long lasting work horse and this is it.
Subscribed.
Glad to have found your channel, sad that I'll have to wait for the weekend to binge it😅
There is a fair amount of videos on the channel by this point. Hope you like it
i enjoyed your tangents and thought they added to the video
be a little more confidant! your doin great
In TNG there were a few Excelsior class starships name like the USS Hood, the USS Crazy horse and the USS Potemkin to name a few
yes, we saw loads them in the dominion war as well.
Thanks for sharing this commentary. Excellent stuff! 👏🏾⭐ ❤
I guess Star Trek III needed a 'fall guy' for the story, so the experimental USS Excelsior, her Captain Styles and her crew, were given this role, and served it well - I thought quite well, in comedic terms. Captain Styles's surprise and Captain Scott's ingenuity, all come together well in the film. That being said, the experimental 'Transwarp drive' isn't really fully explained, but as this commentary rightly explains, the Excelsior Class became a mainstay of Starfleet for decades, well into the 24th century.
I always thought it was interesting that during TOS, the Constitution Class was the only Starfleet class ship we saw (of course the 1960s didn't have the special effect capabilitites or the budgets that helped develop the films and episodes in the late 80s - early 90s). Other than that we saw one or two 'Antares' Class ships (if I remember correctly), and lost ships are referred to.
It wasn't until Star Trek II that we saw the MIranda Class (USS Reliant) and then Star Trek III, when as well as the USS Excelsior, we also saw the USS Grissom - so we didn't really start to get a feel for a fleet of varied ships until then. Only Khan's comment in Star Trek II, that "...we're one big happpy fleet..." helps to keep in mind that while the action in the Star Trek films and episodes often focuses on one ship, there are so many others out there.
When I started watching TNG and saw Excelsior class vessels featurd prominently in some episodes, it did make me wonder why, in what was supposed to be something like an 85-year gap between the years of Kirk and Picard, this class of starship was still around well into the 24th Century. By the time seasons 3 and 4 of TNG rolled round (I'm thinking especially of the episode 'Redemption'), we saw many more classes of starship, and then of course the appearance of the Ambassador Class USS Enterpise C in 'Yesterday's Enterprise', helped bridge the gap between the Excelsior Class Enterprise B and the Galaxy Class Enterprise D.
The Gerald Ford Aircraft Carrier was purposely designed with more power and space than it realistically needs today, so that things like rail guns and lasers can be fielded as they become available/ practicable. It has much more IT infrastructure than any other surface ship. It was designed with IT from the start.
Like the B52, the F15 (1970s) has had a new life. Unlike the F22, the original F15 was crude enough it could be easily retrofitted with new tech. It had actually been frequently updated during its 50 yr of service; but, the F15 EX is a holy new F15. It was developed initially because of doubts about the F35 (both time line and numbers) later because it was realized not every mission require a stealth fighter, also stealth fighter have some disadvantages such as the need to carry all ordnance internally.
The F-15 is another example of an aircraft staying around much longer than planned. I figure the Treaty of Algeron was like the Washington Naval Treaty or the START Treaty that limited the new ships. VenomGeekMedia98 has a video where the Klingon B10 and the Federation Excelsior are have analogs in the USSR’s MiG-25 and the USA’s F-15 competition.
They needed something in-between the Constitution class and the Galaxy class starships. It's not to hard to take a "Connie" and a "Galaxy", and ask "what would a ship midway between these two classes look like?" My first thought on seeing the Excelsior was "What a behometh!" And not in a good way....Incidentally, the word means "onward and upward", but also is the word for packing styrofoam peanuts.
That's what the Ambassador class is meant to be
In a DS9 book wherein Bajor was contracted to build an Excelsior (thus were given the blueprints), the project head stated that the design was compact and modular. The warp core was also described as compact, efficient, and with all the kinks ironed out.
The Excelsior was a great ship. The refit it got for the Enterprise-B made it better until it got another upgrade and gave the Defiant a good pounding.
I thought it was around so long because the miniature models they used for filming lasted a long time, or they took a lot of footage of it, so they could re-use it a lot.
The Excelsior and Enterprise are used in Star Trek III as symbolism. In Star Trek II, Kirk had been talking about how old he felt. The Excelsior was meant to symbolise the threat that Kirk and the crew felt about getting old and being replaced. The fact that the Excelsior didn't perform well was meant to signifying that there was still life in the old dogs yet.
From a conceptual perspective from the production of Star Trek franchise over the Excelsior lifetime it's simple it was the model they had LOL
When TNG jumped 80 years ahead in time lines the studio didn't have enough practical models manufactured to show new generation Starships so the Excelsior stuck around whether it would have been real world realistic or it was strictly within the confines of the universe.
But that's the reason that you continuously see excelsior's right up until the Dominion War they were basically held over for Star Trek Productions because it was a design they had.
Andrew Probert who designed the Enterprise D had lamented that the Excelsior was not ideal for TNG because he said an 85-year-old Starship shouldn't still be puttering around I don't believe every Excelsior class ship we ever saw dated from 2283 but the design and the elasticity to it that Star Trek fans observed
Because the studio model was laying around.
I’ve always thought Kirk had a kind of parallel with Enterprise. Kirk was middle-aged and felt old and worn out. The Enterprise was at the end of her run, now relegated to being a trainee vessel instead of being on actual duty. Compared to Excelsior, the Enterprise was outdated and was going to be scrapped.
Personally I never liked to design of the Excelsior- I thought it looked like a cross between a Mr. Coffee and a bathtub.
As for why it stuck around, I tend to think they like the Reliant and Constellation classes, they were the last burst of "starships as form over function" design philosophy, before the "Starships as flying resort hotels" philosophy that lead to the Galaxy class took over. Since they prioritized operational effectiveness over l looking impressive, they found themselves being used in secondary roles even after they were supposedly superceded by more advanced designs.
But sadly, the Excelsior class is completely obsolete as if the Dominion war era. When your battleship can be matched in combat by a Defiant class 1/16th the size, it's time to retire it.
The Excelsior-class was built as an experimental test-bed first (to try to get Transwarp operational), and a starship second. Because of this, it was designed to be easily upgradable. So when the demilitarization hit Starfleet because of peace with the Klingons, they had a starship class which was big, powerful, rugged and easily maintainable. They had themselves a very capable workhorse. So when Starfleet was unable to build any new starships for awhile, they had themselves a starship which could handle the load. The Excelsior class was the perfect class built at the perfect time.
The Excelsior has always been my favorite Starfleet ship (narrowly edging out the Oberth for it's uniqueness). I don't think the Excelsior was supposed to be a bad ship, but it represented "The Man" telling Kirk he couldn't save his friend. Anyone (or in this case, Anything) telling our hero they can't do something is the enemy, even if we don't want to see them harmed.
The Excelsior and Miranda class were essentially the staple Federation ship. It makes me wonder why the Ambassador was not as prevalent.
His major issue with Excelsior was the 'transwarp' drive system. Once they installed more conventional warp engines, he didn't have any issues.
It was a very popular design. The Enterprise B was an excelsior class. Starfleet admirals commanded them as a preference as opposed to newer designs. They also all agreed as an unspoken rule to let the younger Captains play with the new toys and then they could show those younger Captains how to really run a starship.
There’s an easy answer to that question (“if it ain’t broke don’t fix it”)
In lore I think the Excelsior proved to be a very reliable design, even if the tech it was originally build for was not (transwarp). The Klingons were no longer in a shape to challenge Starfleet after the Praxis incident and the Romulans were extremely cautious as well. Excelsior hulls could serve both as battleships and as exploration vessels which explains why the class stayed so long and were often admirals ships of choice.
Because they had a studio model that worked, and it couldn't be confused for the Enterprise. That is also why the Klingon Bird of Prey keeps coming back again and again, even as different "classes" of Klingon Bird of Prey. I will say I HATE that they overused the Klingon BoP so much. They needed their own ships. But, basically...money.
Yep when you waste your special effect budget for the season on a few glamor shots and sequences you hardly use you have to be creative and use what you have. Got lots of Oberth, MIranda, and Excelsior's, BoPs and other ships reused from the movies.
The idea was that Transwarp was not a reliable technology and ultimately it was abandoned. Sulu’s excelsior and the Enterprise B both used traditional warp drive.
The real hero of the series, regarding engineers was the Klingon ship engineer who discovered how to negate the Breen energy beam.
His discovery saved hundreds of ships and thousand of lives.
I loved the Excelsior. That huge thin saucer, the guppy secondary hull, and the new transwarp nacelles. She definitely looked the part of being the Connie's successor. Also agree with the Excelsior redeeming itself very well in Star Trek 6.
The Excelsior class lasted thanks to the Khitomer peace accords. The UFP enjoyed 80 years of freedom to expand their territories. Excelsiors, Mirandas and Oberths were able to carry out routine missions without fear of Klingons (or Romulans) taking shots at them.
When war did break out with the Borg and the Dominion, the Excelsior class ships were cannon fodder, pretty much any episode you see an Excelsior class, they were battered or destroyed easily ...
In the flashback episode of Voyager, the Excelsior was bullied by a pair of K'tinga cruisers, ships that were 30+ years old in design at the time.
Chang wasn't afraid of the Excelsior either in his little Bird of Prey and seemed confident he would take out both the Excelsior and Enterprise single handedly ...
"The more they check the plumbing the easier it is to stuff up the drain" Montgomery Scott (James Dohan)
Only Captain Sulu can make the Excelsior a legend.
The Excelsior Mafia.
lol yes, politics.
@@qetoun ? No, it's a reference to another video.
I believe it’s a reference to the Bomber Mafia, which held significant influence over the US airforce in the mid twentieth century.
@@starshipreviews Actually, it was a reference to the Fighter Mafia, the group that effectively caused the creation of the F-16 and F-18.
@kommandantgalileo I stand corrected, bomber Maria was earlier I believe
The reason for its durability is purely due to financial reasons. It was practical and economical to use the model manufactured by ILM, in the same way as was done with the Miranda class.
Fun fact: The final U.S.S. Excelsior design was created by Nilo Rodis in 1983. He stated it was based on a Japanese version of an "advanced Enterprise". 🤓
Would that Ambassador / Galaxy classes be more technological testbeds until they settle on Akira to mass-produce?
I’m actually doing a series on the Galaxy class and her relatives. I tend to see the galaxy as a major evolution for starfleet ships, but one with some issues that the more combat focused Akira/Sovereign generation lacked
I always stay to the end of a video, that is Why I am here.
Boeing 737s have been flying since the late 60's.
Lived by the Boeing plant for a few years. Super cool planes
It was not that Excelsior was bad per se, but her first Captain and crew are set up as a unlikely foil for our crew... , but that's another video entirely. Also she needed to cook a bit longer. Her technology integration was not quite ready for another couple years.
Because it was cheaper to reuse the old models than to create new models.
The real explanation is sadly hardly ever as fun as what you can cook up for an in universe explanation
The Miranda Class and variants were also prolific and long lived. I think that Scotty's biggest grudge with the Excelsior arose when Star Fleet denied having the Enterprise repaired. Before then he had a bit of a grudging acceptance of the ship class. Oh as far as real world examples of longevity you forgot the A-10 Wart Hogs.
The argument around 11:03 in the video that Starfleet would rip out an auxiliary reactor because the primary one works fine is *not* how Starfleet works (either in Kirk's era or anything beyond). There's always primary, secondary, auxiliary, and emergency power (also referred to as emergency batteries). Starfleet, however, would remove "extra" versions of those reactors (i.e. if they had 200 secondary power generators, they could remove x number of that where x < 100%). More likely, however, they would simply remove redundant or obsolete science labs and outdated equipment.
Typically, there was a maintenance window where they would schedule to swap out components for upgrades. Refits occurred as extensive overhauls of existing ship systems and that was on a separate schedule from the aforementioned maintenance windows.
Any equipment which was replaceable by vetted newer technologies would be slotted into the maintenance rotation - where the existing crew couldn't do it by themselves without extensive facilities available in shipyards. This is mentioned in TNG's tech manual, VOY's tech manual, and I want to say the same for Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise.
This is not really new and dates back to upgrades made in the life of NCC-1701 during the original series run and later in TMP.
Additionally, the Excelsior's age has really nothing to do with anything you mentioned in the video at this point. The reality is that they wanted the model to have a tie-in to the movies, as it was seen in ST:III, and a couple years later seen in TNG to effectively "hand the torch on" to the next generation of crew members (yes, I get that it's a pun and that was the point - but also accurate).
Because they already had those assets available, they were able to leverage it in DS9 (and the Voyager episode "Flashback"). People go with what they have on hand, if they can, due to budgets. The producers and runners even indicate this much in various interviews you can find on the internet.
I appreciate the effort to attempt to retcon in an in-universe explanation, but that's simply not why any of this was done.
Don’t forget secondary backups… DS9 Miles had a good conversation with a Cardassian Scientist on that. 🙂
I’d argue that there are a number of reasons. First when the klingons and federation allied, and the romulans withdrew from galactic politics, the federation stagnated somewhat. Yes they did have the galaxy, nebulas, and a few other new designs, but they didn’t really develop new platforms, especially platforms that were built with defense in mind, until the borg and dominion threats. Secondly the excelsior class design was reliable, relatively versatile and could be modified relatively quickly and easily. Finally the admiralty probably thought they were allocating resources more efficiently by constantly modifying and upgrading excelsior class ships.
From the designer of Excelsior, Nilo Rodis Jamero, and Bill George, the inspriration came from influences of Japanese designs, and had thought, 'How would the Japanese design the Enterprise'? At least they didn't add the wave motion gun from Uchuu Senkan Yamato, or is that just the deflector dish?
It is a timeless classic design, and their re-work of this icon in Generations, made it look even cooler.
Take care, and all the best.
I would love to see a Japanese excelsior Star Trek series.
My theory is that it lasted so long is due to the fact that the production teams for Star Trek didn't want to spend additional money creating new ships and just said fuck it let's keep using the Excelsior, Oberth & Miranda vessels.
I agree on one point. On STIII, the Excelsior is introduced as the NextGen ship. But not in an antagonistic way. What makes it antagonistic is the captain. This due to him being so smug and arrogant. 😬
The longevity of the ship is due to ingenuious engineering. The ship isn't developed with a service period of a decade or two in mind, but 50+ years of frontline service. And even its successor, the Ambassador in the end didn't manage to outperform the ship on a large scale. And as TNG and DS9 have shown is, that the design can even cope up with specifically designed warships and Dominion War era combat technologies. Almost 90 years after it was initially developed. Same thing cannot be said for the Miranda class, which was a rival to the Constitution class and later on was used as anything from surveillance, transport or even as a better freighter.
For me the only logical thing on NuTrek is, that Starfleet realized this design is aging and may have outlived its purpose, but the frame is that viable, they designed a new generation of Excelsiors, based on the original.
They were featured a lot in TNG, just old venerable hulls that had tons of refits.
Me again, (great vid BTW) there are several 'modern' fighter jets regarded as being very good that that are getting rather old. Specifically the late 3rd gen/early 4th gen fighters such as the F-16 and F-15. Both of which were designed in the 1970s. The F-15 (with upgrades) is anticipated to keep flying up until around the 2040s.
The F18 is of that generation as well I believe and has been heavily upgraded in recent years to keep it in service as the F/A18 I think. And then there are the Iranian F14's which are potentially still in service. And lets not get started about the North Korean jet inventory.
@@starshipreviews All valid points. There are some good documentaries on how the Iranians kept their F-14s going. Essentially, building an entire industry from the ground up. The reason they keep going is that the F-14 is nuclear delivery capable.
There's the obvious real world reason of production costs to build a new model when a lightly used one from the TOS movies was around, but the in universe reason is the reason why the Connie finally got put to bed. The Miranda fills the need of a multimission ship more cheaply if you can get away with it, and the Excelsior fills the need for when you need something beefier than a Miranda. Between those two competitors, the Connie couldn't find a niche and thus were decommissioned. But also the reason why those two classes seemed to never end. With obviously the Ambassadors and then Galaxys, and then Odysseys taking the ever bigger front line spaces. My guess is Excelsior derivatives will remain in service for centuries since its such an important niche.
Because it looks cool.
More of a numbers game with ships on the ocean, not to mention decay, upkeep and loss of Technologies due to buyouts & bankruptcies!
You don't like the Iowa class battleship?? They're a good analog too, built as an analog warship but eventually refitted to hold modern weapons in the 90s and fought in the gulf war
Iowas are cool, but the QEs, especially warspite, have a more interesting history to me. The better part of two world wars as opposed to a bit of one and then Cold War service.
Fascinating...
As my dad puts it. Star Trek 5 the last time we'll let shatner direct. Star Trek 6 the apology for five.
Whats the big deal if a big honker like the Enterprise isn't the fastest ship in the fleet? It isn't a corvette, it's the velvet hammer of the Federation.
It lasted so long because they still had the model of it hanging around when they made the first seasons of TNG so they may as well make use of it.
Excelsior has been stan lee's catch phrase for decades....is it possible it's name was a marvel reference?
Your analogy with pistons on jet aircraft is a bit clunky. You might try an analog of 19th century ocean going ships that used coal boilers still having cloth sails as back-up propulsion. It's a little obscure. But it's pretty easy to visualize both types of propulsion being on one ship.
It it worked as advertised it would have been a vary short film. Although I would have used it instead of the Miranda class they used in star trek 4
At that point in time Excelsior was still in the experimental stage (final scene still has NX registry). Styles was also the testing captain for her "space trials".
I read somewhere about the Transwarp Drive testing proving either unviable or a failure and the Excelsior was then refitted with a conventional Warp Drive and introduced the service (somewhere between ST IV and ST VI) under Sulu's command (Sulu being captain would put it after ST V, but that film with it's "centre of the galaxy" plot is a bit of a write-off).
I've given this some thought myself even before this interesting video. One possibility is that a long service life may have been part of the plan all along with the Excelsior class. Starfleet made them easy to upgrade on purpose to justify putting more resources into the initial production. Also, here is an interesting factoid you missed, apparently the original Excelsior NCC-2000 was still in service as a cadet training vessel as late as Picard Season 2. It's the ship Elinor was serving on. I think that would have made the ship over 100 years old at that point. (Subscribed)
The Excelsior in Picard had a different registry and was a new ship design (Excelsior II, not a refit)
NCC 2000 was in the museum.
The Excelsior was supposed to be the next step in ship design, mainly in subsystem maintainability. Aside from the new trans-warp being a dead end in proportion systems from what I gathered. aside for ship circuitry using the Enterprise subsystems was being phased out in favor of Icoliniear chips being the future of starship design.
It's a rivalry thing that happens in military like organization.
Excelsior-class, the B-52 of space!
Also, as advancements are made components, can be consolidated and even made smaller offering more space
Star trek iii looked like an enemy is because we are looking at it from the perspective of the enterprise crew who love their ship and dont want to let her go. They are jealous of this new vessel being built to replace their ship.
its like the Boeing 737. Its been around for ever!
After 50 years an Excelsior class could giva Defiant class ship a serious beat down.
USS Algorithm!
An engagement class starship I believe
Liked the design of the NX Excelsior in Star trek 3 But why have we not seen more improved Excelsior Class Such as NCC Enterprise B ?
Captain Sulus ship…..still waiting for the series.
Excelsior is a battleship.