They all would've already been long dead after realising they'd have to sit on uncomfortable leather seats while they had literal bullet holes riddled into their bodies
A note about the chuffing sound, I have a lionel steam loco that also has a chuffing unit in the tender, I think that it's really intended for the larger O scale wheels, which have a lower angular speed than those HO wheels of a significantly smaller diameter. Something tells me they took that same mechanism and simply applied it to this set.
Well, the frequency of chuffs is correct - there should be 4 chuffs per rotation of the drive wheels. That is arguably the one single prototypical aspect of this locomotive. However, either the sound sample or the sound system they used is terrible, but I'd bet it's a combination of both.
Being a lifelong Lionel O Gauge fan, I still don't get why the company bothers dabbling in the HO market. This is the third time the company has attempted getting into that market after two failed attempts in the 1950's and 1970's and I doubt this new range will last much longer either. The HO market is just really saturated and Lionel's biggest draw has almost always been their 3 rail O Gauge line and it's pretty apparent whenever they branch out to other popular gauges that the company can't figure out how to appeal to those more hobbyist base markets.
The problem is they use the same tooling for everything instead of actually making anything prototypical, same with their ""g"" gauge all using the same polar express tooling
Sam, some info on the Lionel HO range, Almost all the tooling for the proucts in their range is well over 30 YEARS OLD AT BEST! Lionel bought the tooling for most of it's range from a defunct company called Model Power, who, even in their heydey, were seen as one of the cheaper brands. The earliest reference I have to the coaches in your set, the Model Power Harriman Coach series, is a Walthers Catalog of 1987! The tooling for their freight cars (up until those in their Spring 2023 catalog) originally were sold by two different companies, Marx and HobbyLine, and the Lionel 2-bay open hopper, a 1957 MARX TOOLING, represents the OLDEST TOOLING STILL IN CONTIUOUS USE IN U.S. HO! The tooling for the Chassis from the locomotive might be from another defunct company, Life Like, but the boiler and tender shells appear to be new toolings, done in style compairable to their O-Gauge toy trains.
The cheapest is to buy individual kits so that the end user can modify the asset (if available) to their liking, like the rest of the plastic model hobby.
@@BattleshipOrion That might be the cheapest option in terms of money, but not everyone has the time, skills, or interest to build their models from kits. Some people really like that experience, while I prefer ready-to-run trains.
Lionel’s O Scale offerings are far superior then anything they have done in HO scale. Their Vision Line range has some of the best sounds I have heard in a model train.
Even still, lionel still lives in an age where they still think people have endless money to spend and space to accomodate a large train. They are doomed to fail if they dont lower their prices or do something. Most young americans have no idea the company even exists for christ's sake.
@@yeoldeseawitch This. You need to be making 6 figures to afford what they are making these days and the vast majority of people aren't making that kind of money. That and as mentioned their quality control took a nose dive.
I did some digging and the locomotive number 4100 was never a Berkshire. It was a 2-8-2. However the Santa Fe did own Berkshire’s, but they look very different. For example it have a weird feed water heater on the front.
The Bershire class for the ATSF was 4101, numbered 4101 to 4115, so i wonder if Lionel just slapped 4100 cause they figured that was the first number of the series? Also worth noting, "Lionchief" is Lionels brand of cheaper non prototypical sets. Their Legacy Line is the much higher detailed prototypical models.
They are called Coffin feedwater heaters and were ex-Boston & Maine locos (Southern Pacific also bought those same locos as well) that were bought as stopgap freight locos until diesels were available. Santa Fe had another version of their own Berkshire, Class 4101's from Baldwin described as "basically good 1922 engines with a 1927 wheel arrangement." Therefore, on mine since I freelance, I justify it as since the Santa Fe bought locos from other railroads in this instance, they trialed a Berkshire from the Nickel Plate Road (since it looks like a Nickel Plate Berk). Also, I bought my set for well under $200 shipped I would not buy these at retail.
Funny story Sam, the coaches were actually made my Model Power back in the 1980, I still have some from a model power Southern express trainset. Cheers Jasper & Willow
As an owner of 3 Lionel Train Sets… this is by far the worst representation of what Lionel can make. I had no idea their HO models were so lackluster and pathetic. Not to mention it was at the same price as one of their O gauge sets. I would like to assure you their O gauge sets are exponentially better as they tend to be metal cast locomotives to the point I think the drive tires are overkill on the O gauge sets.
most lionel trainsets are intended for beginners, and in oscale are price appropriately as such, their separate products are high quality but insanely expensive. Their ho scale range however, has NEVER been known for quality. In this case, despite the technology involved , it doesn't mean much if it's not compatible with other brands.
Their stuff from the early 2000's was quite well regarded. If they were more serious about it and didn't charge an arm and a leg at the time, they could have been contenders. MTH bought their tooling and now Scaletrains owns it.
But in Europe even the cheapest of models are recognisable prototypes. NO British or European modeller - even a beginner, would ever put up with some generic tosh. We may have put up with such things in the 1920s, but certainly not in the 2020s!
As a matter of fact, there is a ATSF locomotive with that number. And this is what I found... ATSF 4100 is a oil burning 1924 Baldwin Mikado class 4060 with 63" drivers and 27"x32" cylinders. The engine weight was 342,000 lb and it could produce a tractive effort of 62,949 lb. The class was scrapped between 1950-54.
yea Lionel did make HO scale products before their 1st run was from 1957 - 1967 and then for a 2nd time from 1974 - 1990 and then the one off veranda turbine in the early 2000s. They re-entered the HO scale line for a 3rd time in 2016.
I have a few HO lionel cars from the 70s - 80s era. Not bad. On par with Bachmann or Life Like ready to run from that time. One interesting thing from that era, cars decorated for Canadian roads had the product number as the road number on the car or locomotive instead of using the prototypes actual road number. For example a CN stock car with product T-20140 would also have this on the cars side. US cars actually used the prototype cars road numbers. A bit of an oddity to do this.
Some pluses; 1) the controller looks plasticky, but works decently well. 2) real metal Kadee (TM) couplers - those should outlast the entire set! 3) it has a decent enough tender, and the 3-axle buckeye trucks (bogies) are reasonably close to the prototype, though they usually have brake cylinders mounted on them for this application (tenders), though not on - say - depressed-center flatcars. 4) the livery is simple and well applied, typical of AT&SF steam locomotives. I didn’t see any paint splatter or bleed-through on the white lettering. 5) The mechanism actually has brass/bronze bearings. 6) The choice of DC, DCC, their controller, or Bluetooth was a nice touch. It would have been interesting to see Sam download the app and try it that way. It’s just a shame they sold a toy train set at a price of a high-end model, like Athearn Genesis, Bachmann Spectrum, Atlas, Kato, or Broadway Limited. 😢 It at least didn’t have a fake plastic silver coin stuck on it - thank God! Or worse, “gold” coal! Gaaaa….!! (Run for the hills, folks!) If I ever see anything that atrocious again, I may have to make a trip over there and feed it to Sam’s train-eating zombie! 🤣😆😂
Lionel is a fascinating company to me, because I never associate them with modernity. To me they're the American equivalent of hornby, a company that is still around and has more value in being a name-brand then as a model company. Even checking the front page it's mostly brand colabs holiday stuff
I'm an American with an amateur knowledge of model trains, and that description seems very fitting to me. We have lots of companies like that in America, surviving just on their name alone. Many of these companies are going to fail as fewer and fewer people associate their name with the quality products of the past.
Come on - take ANY Hornby locomotive at random, and compared with this muck it's a work of art. As to what Hornby can do on a good day, comparisons are odious.
29:12 looks like is it chugging fairly close but I did see a slight de-sync. Berk’s chuff 4 times per driver revolution and have relatively small drivers since they were used on fast freights in the US, so it looks fairly close in the video.
the price was way too high. but it looks cool going down your track. you can disconnect the sensor and still have the other sounds and maybe the rapid fire chuffing will go away. its got problems, but its also not garbage.
Totally disagree, $389 for an entire set including DCC, loco, cars, track, and sound is actually a great price in todays market. Though the fact that it's garbage may be aproblem.
@@patrickadams1430 By European standards, the thing is a toy, and it's priced as a real scale model. Had it been selling for sub-£50, some confused granny might be tempted to buy it for a soon-to-be disappointed child.
From my time with Lionel I’ve found their postwar stuff to be much better when it comes to quality compared to their modern stuff, it’s also cheaper as well
In stark contrast, the lionel HO challenger is a rather remarkable model... All metal so very heavy indeed. Sounds quality is ok for an mid 2000's release but the chuff isn't great.
Lionel's entry this time around into the HO market is bewildering. The products they've put forth and the prices they have them set at leave a lot to be desired. If they'd just stuck with polar express sets they would have done well in HO.
Hey Sam been watching you for two years and I would like to say thank you for getting me and my dad into hornby trains me and my dad didn’t even know that hornby trains even existed until we saw one of your videos two years ago and as soon as we saw one of your hornby train videos we where hooked to hornby trains and I would like to say thank you for getting us into British train hobby
Noted. Probably one I'd go after. After dealing with the "big 3" battleship classes (Yamato's Bismarck's, and Iowa's), and a variety of aircraft carrier classes, aswell as destroyers, cruisers, and submarines, I don't care for counting rivets. Most model railroaders probably wont get this, but worrying about that one lil' rivet, specific details, or accuracy takes a toll, and there is NO middle, the smaller you go, the smaller "easy sections" get, and the likelihood for mess ups goes up, the bigger you go, the more lil' details you notice, and the more resources & effort you gotta pour in go up. Y'all are lucky to get 99% of the actual "train" aspect of the hobby pre-built, and even luckier that half of the engines, and wagons exist in model form. I cant find a plastic assembled kit of a 1:35th scale CAT D7 any where, nor can I find a post 2010 Dodge Hellcat (before I'm flagged that's the name of the car), or a Peterbilt 389 flattop in scales larger than 1:64, or a variety of warships in any scale, such as the Allen M. Sumner's, Shimikaze, Lutzow (Battle of Jutland), or the California class guided missile cruisers for some examples.
My first train was a MARX that I received for Christmas when I was 4 years old. I was happy as pie for many years. And that brings me to this Lionel you are featuring. I put it in the same class as my MARX, which is designed for small children. Only a lot more expensive than the MARX, even considering inflation since the MARX was new. I was really disappointed in this Lionel. Thanks for sharing.
They are probably like "oh hey, this is an HO model, but let's put an O gauge price on it!" Even Dapol's clearly-more-professional O gauge locos aren't that expansive
You mention in the video the chuffing noise sounds like "machinegun fire". Incidentally, the term "Machine -Gunning" is a term used to describe badly programmed sound samplers by musicians and audio technicians. It is an effect that happens when the exact same audio clip is played over and over again at rapid pace (and it really doesn't seem to matter what kind of sound the sampler is playing). A good sampler will add variation to each clip (a common way is to randomaly vary the pitch each time the clip is played) or play from a pool of very similar but slightly different sounding clips to avoid this effect. There is almost funtionally no difference between a sampler used to mimic a musical instrument for creating digital music, and the software in a sound decorder. The term you used is very apt.
Great review of such an abysmal train set. After hearing from these other commenters that Lionel has terrible track record for their HO scale models, one question comes to mind: ....why? Anyway, definitely expect to see this in the Top 5 Worst Trains of 2023 this year and hope nothing else is this bad
"I would look the other way and continue to die," "Let's get to work throwing it in the dustbin." I love these reviews of terrible trains, they totally crack me up.
Absolutely beautiful. How can anyone think this is worth that much? I'm now split between this and the queens train for requesting on sams trains live next...
Man, am I glad I saw this review! I've been keeping my eye out to try Lionel's HO stuff. (For their HO set to be the price of an O gauge starter set? That has to be premium!) You saved me the $300 I've been toying with trying one of these out. Your next mission is to see if you can try out one of MTH's HO sets or engines. Now those ought to be worth the price!
MTH, HO and S scale molds and tooling has been sold to Scale Trains. They have brought out the 70 ton 3 bay open hopper that MTH included with their first DCC set. Scale Trains offers the MTH coal car in their "kit" line. I like both the MTH car and the Scale Trains car. Scale Trains has improved the lettering.
MTH is great until DCS fights your DCC system or you need warranty repairs. So glad that they sold their tooling to ScaleTrains, MTH really screwed over customers
The closest ATSF prototype to Lionel’s offering is going to be locomotive #4197, which was a 2-8-4 Berkshire previously owned by the Boston & Albany railroad, and later purchased and modified by the Santa Fe. The modifications included the addition of an Elesco feed water heater, oil conversion, and some changes to the boiler jacketing and lagging to help the locomotive better fit in on the ATSF roster. Lionel’s Berkshire is more similar to the Pere Marquette N1 prototype, right down to the flying number boards and boiler tube style pilot.
I can kinda forgive the "toy" look, since that's something Lionel is known for. It's like they're designed from photos/illustrations rather than schematics. They're kinda old fashioned that way. However, I've seen O-gauge models from them that have that same "toy-like" aesthetic, yet there's QUALITY in that simplicity (e.g. die-cast construction). This feels less like a stylistic choice and more of them cheaping out; it smells of "you're buying the brand, not the product".
Yeah this was Lionel repurposing their polar express molds to try and create starter sets for a new market. I genuinely love that Lionel engines these days have Bluetooth and remotes to allow any beginner to start running trains with more than just conventional transformer operations. But these are garbage. They are reaching way beyond their means and don’t seem to know how to stay relevant in a vanishing market.
It's actually rather cheap for a DCC Equipped American train set, unfortunately. I bought the Cajon Flyer version of the set and was reasonably pleased with it as someone who doesn't use DCC. The fact that I can run it with sound without having to rewire my layout made it worth it for me. It's definitely not a great set though. You can also change sound settings in the Lionchief mobile app. I turned the chuffing way down the day I got it.
Well Sam, had Lionel HO trains from their 70s dabble in HO and it is broken and not repairable. Remember not liking them as a kid, preferring Tyco and Athearn of the period. Own zero Lionel anything at moment in any gauge. Thanks for the review, the Berkshire is kinda their go to steam locomotive in any scale and while a nice loco as others have pointed out not many railroad companies used them.
I reccomend you watch Eric's trains. He has an amazing o scale layout and collection and I would love to see the 2 of you collab and share eachothers knowledge:)
Hey Sam. So a couple things. You said you think it’s a Berkshire. In the Whyte notation, which determines what type of locomotive a steam locomotive is, a 2-8-4 wheel arrangement is a Berkshire no matter what company made it and how the locomotive looks. If the wheel arrangement is a 2-8-4, it’s a Berkshire. Second thing is that obviously since Lionel is better at making O Gauge stuff and S Gauge stuff through they’re American Flyer line, I’d definitely recommend checking those out instead, they could never really hit the bullseye on HO gauge. As someone who owns a Lionel O Gauge set, I can confirm the O Gauge stuff feels a lot more solid. While the detail isn’t at all as good as the high end models (it’s meant more to be a toy train), the build quality is still monumental.
The suggested retail price is actually quite typical for an American HO train set, still a bit pricey for the detail even for American standards though, but not as drastically as it is for British stuff.
Yeah Lionel’s HO range is pretty bad. I got the polar express set way Back for Christmas and the thing kept derailing. I think you need to try out one of there o gauge products. They’ve got a few cheap tank engines for under 300 and from what I’ve sceen they can haul a lot. You would need to set it to 2 rail power though
Yes, I think I remember dropping that set off at your place, Jason! Yep, they're problematic with staying railed. By the way, appreciated the cookies and milk...hit the spot on a cold Christmas Eve night!!!!
Fun fact: since this is just a reskin of the polar express train set, the engine is a pere Marquette N-1 class Berkshire, which was never owned by the santa fe.
Sam, unfortunately Lionel "thought" it could compete with MTH HO Trains on the Cheap using old East German (DDR) tooling made in Chinese(PRC) Factories with the cheapest electronic components. The couplers are only good because they are from Kadee. It is very over priced for what it is.
Being from Canada I’m used to engines here costing an arm and a leg for very little in return. That’s part of the reason I model British trains. Essentially it’s railroad locos for more than railways prices. To get a half decent detailed loco (especially steam) you need at least $600. So basically a Hornby Dublo loco price. It’s awful and there is very little in between
What makes it worse is that North American models rarely match specific prototypes. It sucks that it's also hard to find comprehensive guides to North American locomotives; Information on British locomotives is, on the other hand, quite easy to find (likely due to Thomas's popularity). I run 00-9/H0n30 myself, which has a fair bit of properly prototypical American locomotives, ironically enough.
@@ManOfUnknownWorth I wouldn't say due to Thomas popularity but the fact they invented the steam engine and more people in Britain use trains than in North America, so they are more popular/well-known to the public so greater work was done to preserve and educate people about their heritage.
The problem is that Lionel has not put any real effort into making a worth while Ho scale model, If they put the same amount of effort in the Ho scale line as they do with their O scale line they would be pretty good models.
Looked up AT&SF 4100 it appears to be a Mikado 2-8-2 not a Berkshire 2-8-4, the Berkshire was only owned by the Nickel Plate and it’s subsidiary Pere Marquette. It looks as though other railroads had 2-8-4 locomotives but not referred to as Berkshires. Same as the 4-8-4, most railroads referred to these as”Northerns”, but the NYC referred to their locomotives as “Niagara’s”.
Unfortunate...Lionel has ALWAYS had an uneven at best involvment in HO scale, originally beginning in the late 1950s...then discontinued in the late 60's, then brought BACK in the 1970's/80's, then dropped AGAIN. What mystified me is the frankly strange track system...just to be diffrent I guess?
Lionels quality has taken a total nosedive thats for sure. Slightly older MTH products are looking much better if you ask me. After watching this vid, im no longer giving Lionel anymore of my hard earned money. Sam is absolutely right about everything in this set!
No sprung buffers is a deal breaker for me. Sam, I would have told you to save your money and not buy the Lionel H.O. set. 027 is their thing, H.O. was always a sideline for them.
yeah that's lionel HO for you. the cars are based off of 60 foot comuter cars. The Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Railroad bought fifteen "Berkshires" type locomotives from the Baldwin Locomotive Works in 1927. These locomotives were designated as Class 4101 and assigned road numbers 4101 through 4115. The AT&SF was the only western railroad to have purchased new 2-8-4s.
That magnelock track is every bit as awful as I thought it would be. I've read reviews saying it's awful, but never seen anyone try it on carpet, which is one place where roadbed track would normally have an advantage over regular track.
I think, unless I'm proven wrong one day, those type of can motors are always 3 pole as I've never seen a 5 pole one. That tender sound sensor is like an electric version of those Triang Chuff Chuff soundboxes but not quite there yet, the chuff rhythm sounds like a traction engine going full blast down the road especially with the "speed" its doing. I do hate those unpainted drive wheels with how cheap they look!
Ah, Lionel. The reigning kings of O-gauge here in the US and a household name because of it, but yeah, their HO stuff is... unnoteworthy, at best. There's a reason barely anyone knows they make HO stuff in the first place. As you're probably aware and has been stated by American viewers before, there's other and _far_ better American HO manufacturers out there.
"Look the other way - and continue to die" 😂🤣. Made my weekend that Sam 👍😂. Actually, when it runs it sounds like they're machine gunning them out of their misery anyway 😂. As a kids toy (up to about 7 yrs old) it would be decent and have quite a bit of play value BUT the set should be no more than £100
I have more-or-less the opposite experience with my Lionel berkshire vs. Bachmann berkshire. The Lionel is strong and is not bullied by long trains nor hills, whereas the Bachmann motor is weak and balks on grades or when pulling long trains. There's no denying that the Lionel is very toylike in appearance but my experience with its running characteristics make it something better than a mere expensive toy. Unfortunately the homebrew control circuitry leaves something to be desired, with the built-in DCC compatibility failing and making the train come to a halt at random moments.
Regarding the sounds, they are not very immersive but it doesn't sound any worse than tsunami II decoders I've had the displeasure of listening to. I could rip the circuitry out and install loksound, but that's an additional $100 and I'm not about to fall into sunk cost for such a locomotive. The coaches were repaints of the Lionel's polar express and ran just fine. The truck-mounted couplers unscrewed and there were what appeared to be pilot holes designed for the attachment of a Kadee #5 coupler box, which was extremely impressive and I took advantage of it. Lionel's metal Kadee-compatible couplers, while extremely similar to Kadee couplers, are not manufactured to the same quality and the trip pin (the wire sticking out the bottom) can easily be worked loose with your fingers and the entire coupler falls apart, so those were replaced with real Kadees - as required by most all rolling stock anyway.
The sound reminds me of Hornby's back when they were making 'toy' trains, when their Britannia (for instance) had what was effectively sandpaper against a strip of metal, in the tender... They also had an illuminated firebox, which I thought of as a toy feature - now these are regarded 'high quality' features!!!
This is a great review of a fiailed Lionel item. I don't know why they would make a crappy h o set like this and then charge a lot of money for it. And it's not just the h o I've noticed the o size Berkshires have crappy sound too unless you buy the $1,000 or $2,000 version. Better off getting a diesel. They sound more correct
Lionel has one thing going for it and that is the controller. If you can get the loco and remote only it's pretty good the track is trash. I wish I could see more companies do this because it would be great to have a controller for your loco on dcc without having to keep switching between them. If you do want to use your dcc controller you still have that option also.
Great review, Sam. And 'spot-on' I might add. Yep, you got 'bent over' pretty bad on that one, at that price. Last holiday season the Mrs. and I dropped off 8,365 of those sets to kiddos across the U.K., Canada, and the USA. We've never had such a barrage of complaints and name-calling, referring to me as 'a total fraud' and forbade me or Mrs. Clause to ever return again. We've had to outsource a ton of toys and other goodies since all of our Elves have gone totally 'woke' and refuse to work more than one hour of their typical eight hour day and have gone full union. Last season the price from our wholesaler to us was $19.95 per unit. Still too high in my opinion, but hey, that's just the way things are these days. Thanks again for a great review, can't wait for the next one!!!! Cheers!!!!
Great review. Thanks. I really expected better from Lionel. Here's hoping they get their act together. There are hints of ability. Just need to try harder. Oh, and Lionel, ALWAYS be honest.
Some people will defend Lionel but to be honest, all their stuff is solidly in "toy" category. Even their "O" gauge products aren't really scale models: they travel on that ancient three-rail track and most of it is plastic. The older stuff has some appeal for the same reason that historic Basset-Lowke and tinplate stuff does. Basically deliberately childish toys of variable quality. Sure they make some higher-end (compared to their standard product) locomotives but it's still not meant for serious modellers. Not in a world where finescale "O" scale models are available, even live steam for goodness' sake. Lionel is only meant for toy collectors, not model enthusiasts. This particular HO train set is particularly reprehensible. I wouldn't buy anything from a company that attached their name to a vile product like this.
Sam, wonderful video as always.. As previously mentioned, Lionel does well in O gauge. This is their third attempt at HO gauge. Their first attempt, they just rebranded Athearn and Rivarrossi pieces. Also your Hospital train, the bogies on the coaches or as well call them "trucks" should be 3 axles and not 2. Those coaches are nicknamed "Heavyweights" due to their real world counterpart's weight. And i should note that those trucks appear to be very similar to the old "TYCO" and or "LIFE LIKE' trucks (the tell is the part where they mount to the coach chassis. However, its a childs toy. Wonderful how you are able to import our American pattern trains to the UK with relative ease... I on the other hand have only dealt with Hattons, and Rails of Sheffield and the Hornby that i purchased and had shipped over here, due to the exchange rates and shipping was very expenisve... Cheers mate
I own the HO Lionel polar express and i can confirm its virtually identical other than the livery and added number board parts p.s. you should look for buying a rivarossi big boy, theyre vintage yet affordable and will work on the track you have (2nd radius aka 22inch) i own one and other than the noise is a pleasure to run
In the 1970s and 1980s,Lionel HO trains were the same as the Bachmann trains except for the paint liveries. In the 50s and 60s the HO the line were copies of their O gauge line
One thing to keep in mind A lot of Americans want a very large layout and thus usually have steep grades and curves but they want to run very long trains like for example 15 car passenger trains with each one being 85’ long which I think is close to 12 inches each. Most American steam engines have traction tires because even heavy locomotives need the tires to pull the long heavy trains up steep grades with curves
My impression of Lionel trains these days is that they really are closer to toys than realistic models. When they're not making train sets in nauseating colors like baby blue or neon green, they've got trains like these that try to be realistic but aren't that great with details, which would be enough to impress a younger kid but not a serious modeler. They're kind of an in-between of plastic or wooden toy trains and detailed scale models
Lionel has always made both toys & models, in their catalog it's even separated, starting with high-end O scale models, moving down to cheaper sets for kids that are genuinely toys and not trying to be realistic.
TBH - it doesn't seem expensive for a FULL train set. Lionel (founded in 1900 by an American guy called Joshua Lionel Cowan) was always regarded in America as a Kids Toy Train Set, ideal as a Christmas present that would last a short time & then be through in the skip. But they did also generate an adult following in America & lots of early ones still survive, probably because they were not played with much. We in Britain had a similar company after WW2 - Rovex in Margate. They made the cheap & cheerful (but shoddy) Triang Railways of the mid 50s & 60s. They could never match Hornby Doublo for quality but they sold well in austerity Britain where money was scarce. Triang Railways was just a Kids Toy Trainset. Everything in Triang Trains was made of highly colourful plastic, I don't think any metal was used in any product, except the electric motors of course. And I do mean CHEAP & NASTY PLASTIC. As we know both Hornby & Triang eventually went bust, but the Hornby name was resurrected & they now reside in the old Triang factory in Margate.
Interestingly, Lionel and Tri-ang both struck a deal in the early 60's; while Lionel manufactured and sold the 'Scalextric' slot car range for the American market, while Tri-ang distributed Lionel's science kits (sold as "Tri-ang Lionel"), as well as integrating some of their HO rolling stock. The R345 Tipping Wagon, R249 Exploding Boxcar, and R128 Helicopter Car were all originally Lionel products.
"Lionel (founded in 1900 by an American guy called Joshua Lionel Cowan) was always regarded in America as a Kids Toy Train Set, ideal as a Christmas present that would last a short time & then be through in the skip. But they did also generate an adult following in America & lots of early ones still survive, probably because they were not played with much." I don't know where you got that information from that Lionel was seen as a cheap toy that wouldn't last. Reality shows otherwise and there are train shows and eBay listings today full of old 1940's-1960's Lionel trains well used/ran that are still available that will run. They were built to last and the cost reflected that. Even with Lionel's problems today people are looking to get back in to their old trains because that is how reliable, well-built, and simple they were.
Hmmm..Lionel.... I have a few Lionel bits and pieces...they are more a toy than a model... It is interesting to note that, the trains Gomez used to blow up on the Addam's Family TV show, were Lionel....nuff said... 🚂
I think the flaw with the chuffing sound is that the sensor is on the tender wheels. And those are smaller than the wheels of the locomotive itself. So these smaller wheels turn faster and so make the sound out of sync with the locomotive. So they either should have compensated for the faster turning speed in the coding or just have moved the sensor to the locomotive wheels.
In my past experiences i discovered that i absolutely despise app controlled trains. Every single time i tried to download the app, i ended up getting a virus or my cell phone locked out. I decided after several tries to just stick to dc...it's most reliable,lol. Also..the coaches are just re-tooled Life-Like/Model Power , Harriman Coaches . I have several in Santa Fe paint scheme. The best one could do with those is swap out the axles/wheels with insulated metal wheels as they prove better for running them. Also...get an "axle tuner" tool. With that the truck/wheel frames can be worked on for better wheel running.
As a O scale modeler, I can tell you that 300usd is on the high end of Lionel's starter sets. I have a ATSF Passenger set from them that was 250usd but to me its worth it, its not too detailed on the engine its reliable and fun. I have never seen thier ho, and it being on the high-end of the pricing and the "features" its just a staple of this era of lionel aka take a 100 dollar engine, shove prototype features that will never return on it then sell it for the price of a good MTH locomotive. The price for return comes from USED loinel legacy stuff, to buy it new at the cheapest is 600usd+
I am with you 100% with regards to the traction tyres or (tires) as so spelt in the US. You mention of the expence of this, at £182 We are not going to get a train set any better than this for the same price, over here. It may turn out to be a good starter set for youngsters? I agree that the carriages should have been seen to have some sort of beds, at least in one of the carriages.
your telling me. Lionel says that there are different ho scale Berkshires if you don't want the polar express. but there isn't they are all the same but with different coaches and colors nor do they bother to make different ho scale engines
Lionel has never really been too good with HO scale stuff. Their O scale products are amazing, however. I recon Lionel should stick to what they know, O scale. My guess is that a lot of the cost of this set goes twards all the tech that is inside of the loco. It's great and innovative, but apparently comes at the cost of sacrificing detail. Bummer!
Lionel literally just took one of their o gauge sets- including the ruggedness/lack of separate detail, the sound system and metal couplers and shrunk it down to HO/OO. I would say try Lionel O gauge but I'd be lying to myself if I did say that. Just get an MTH HO engine and see some *actual* American quality.
I’m fairly certain those coaches are just ModelPower 67’ Harriman Coaches with bogies modified to have kadee couplings. Even the interiors are identical, in the same colour too.
Lionel is frozen in the sixties. I'm not surprised at the horrible detail, cheap plastic everywhere, ridiculous track, incredibly clunky remote. The only thing that would surprise me is if you ever bought another Lionel product. Great and honest review once again, keep them coming Sam!
If you would like, it isn't much consolation, but if you use the Bluetooth app on your phone, you can adjust the sound settings to lower the volume or even silence certain noises, like the obnoxious chuffing. I've done so on mine, and now only the horn, bell and voice make noise. Not that it makes the train worth it, but it does provide some relief
Loved Lionel for many years, I'm very sorry to see you have such a shotty experience with it. I can assure you the o scale engines are much better than this, and I've heard that the polar Express HO is actually good. Don't worry, not all the engines are like this 😢
the wounded soldiers on this train must have a hell of a PTSD episode when their locomotive starts barking out machine gun sounds
They all would've already been long dead after realising they'd have to sit on uncomfortable leather seats while they had literal bullet holes riddled into their bodies
“If I was an injured soldier and saw this thing coming to rescue me I’d turn around and continue to die” 😂 I couldn’t stop laughing
hahaha!! ;D
Same
Oh i LOLED!!!!
I was laughing so hard
20:50 if you are wondering where it’s at
A note about the chuffing sound, I have a lionel steam loco that also has a chuffing unit in the tender, I think that it's really intended for the larger O scale wheels, which have a lower angular speed than those HO wheels of a significantly smaller diameter. Something tells me they took that same mechanism and simply applied it to this set.
Well, the frequency of chuffs is correct - there should be 4 chuffs per rotation of the drive wheels. That is arguably the one single prototypical aspect of this locomotive. However, either the sound sample or the sound system they used is terrible, but I'd bet it's a combination of both.
Would that engine you have happen to be a lionchief engine too?
@@vicdoesgaming7570 Nope. This set was released in 2009, several years before Lionchief.
Being a lifelong Lionel O Gauge fan, I still don't get why the company bothers dabbling in the HO market. This is the third time the company has attempted getting into that market after two failed attempts in the 1950's and 1970's and I doubt this new range will last much longer either. The HO market is just really saturated and Lionel's biggest draw has almost always been their 3 rail O Gauge line and it's pretty apparent whenever they branch out to other popular gauges that the company can't figure out how to appeal to those more hobbyist base markets.
haha I don't get it either - though it's very entertaining, just not for the right reasons!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Lionel O scale much better than their HO/OO stuff
@@srajfnly2 but 3 rail O is objectively the worst gauge so I don't know why they bother to exist at all
The problem is they use the same tooling for everything instead of actually making anything prototypical, same with their ""g"" gauge all using the same polar express tooling
@@doge_sevens yeah that is very frustrating of them
Sam, some info on the Lionel HO range,
Almost all the tooling for the proucts in their range is well over 30 YEARS OLD AT BEST! Lionel bought the tooling for most of it's range from a defunct company called Model Power, who, even in their heydey, were seen as one of the cheaper brands.
The earliest reference I have to the coaches in your set, the Model Power Harriman Coach series, is a Walthers Catalog of 1987! The tooling for their freight cars (up until those in their Spring 2023 catalog) originally were sold by two different companies, Marx and HobbyLine, and the Lionel 2-bay open hopper, a 1957 MARX TOOLING, represents the OLDEST TOOLING STILL IN CONTIUOUS USE IN U.S. HO!
The tooling for the Chassis from the locomotive might be from another defunct company, Life Like, but the boiler and tender shells appear to be new toolings, done in style compairable to their O-Gauge toy trains.
What an awful set! As you once said, "I've seen bowel movements that constituted better value for money!", And that's certainly true!
hahaha that certainly does apply here ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Sam you gotta make a "ready to go train set" vs "same price self-assembled train set" to see which one is the better value!
Most of the time self assemble is better. I could easily buy a rivarossi Berkshire and buy some passenger cars under the starter set.
The cheapest is to buy individual kits so that the end user can modify the asset (if available) to their liking, like the rest of the plastic model hobby.
@@BattleshipOrion That might be the cheapest option in terms of money, but not everyone has the time, skills, or interest to build their models from kits. Some people really like that experience, while I prefer ready-to-run trains.
He has done something similar recently
Wow, this train set at RRP costs more than the price to drive a steam locomotive at the Dean Forest Railway, which according to their website is £299
Lionel’s O Scale offerings are far superior then anything they have done in HO scale. Their Vision Line range has some of the best sounds I have heard in a model train.
Even still, lionel still lives in an age where they still think people have endless money to spend and space to accomodate a large train. They are doomed to fail if they dont lower their prices or do something. Most young americans have no idea the company even exists for christ's sake.
But, even with that being said, the quality of their O Scale products, Vision Line included, are spotty.
@@yeoldeseawitch This. You need to be making 6 figures to afford what they are making these days and the vast majority of people aren't making that kind of money. That and as mentioned their quality control took a nose dive.
@@OriginalBongoliath williams would've been scything through their profits had they not have been taken over by bachmann and ruined.
I did some digging and the locomotive number 4100 was never a Berkshire. It was a 2-8-2. However the Santa Fe did own Berkshire’s, but they look very different. For example it have a weird feed water heater on the front.
The Bershire class for the ATSF was 4101, numbered 4101 to 4115, so i wonder if Lionel just slapped 4100 cause they figured that was the first number of the series?
Also worth noting, "Lionchief" is Lionels brand of cheaper non prototypical sets. Their Legacy Line is the much higher detailed prototypical models.
Many numbers on Lionel locomotive are not real.going bact to postwar era
Same you have a starter set.its just a way to get into the hobby.
@@williamkolina3988 well my first set was the Bachman overland limited, got it for $218.
They are called Coffin feedwater heaters and were ex-Boston & Maine locos (Southern Pacific also bought those same locos as well) that were bought as stopgap freight locos until diesels were available. Santa Fe had another version of their own Berkshire, Class 4101's from Baldwin described as "basically good 1922 engines with a 1927 wheel arrangement."
Therefore, on mine since I freelance, I justify it as since the Santa Fe bought locos from other railroads in this instance, they trialed a Berkshire from the Nickel Plate Road (since it looks like a Nickel Plate Berk). Also, I bought my set for well under $200 shipped I would not buy these at retail.
Funny story Sam, the coaches were actually made my Model Power back in the 1980, I still have some from a model power Southern express trainset.
Cheers Jasper & Willow
Oh wow - yeah seems very typical of Model power in terms of quality/detail, haha!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
i have a set of 3 canadian pacific model power train cars just like these i was wondering why they looked so similar lmao
Crikey, that figures!!! Its all very 'model power'.
Red flags started shooting up when I saw those plastic clip trucks, yikes.
Lionel bought the Model Power tooling when MP shut down in 2014.
As an owner of 3 Lionel Train Sets… this is by far the worst representation of what Lionel can make. I had no idea their HO models were so lackluster and pathetic. Not to mention it was at the same price as one of their O gauge sets. I would like to assure you their O gauge sets are exponentially better as they tend to be metal cast locomotives to the point I think the drive tires are overkill on the O gauge sets.
most lionel trainsets are intended for beginners, and in oscale are price appropriately as such, their separate products are high quality but insanely expensive. Their ho scale range however, has NEVER been known for quality. In this case, despite the technology involved , it doesn't mean much if it's not compatible with other brands.
Their stuff from the early 2000's was quite well regarded. If they were more serious about it and didn't charge an arm and a leg at the time, they could have been contenders. MTH bought their tooling and now Scaletrains owns it.
But in Europe even the cheapest of models are recognisable prototypes. NO British or European modeller - even a beginner, would ever put up with some generic tosh. We may have put up with such things in the 1920s, but certainly not in the 2020s!
I’ve Used MTH O Scale Brand Trains My Whole Life. Never Had Any Issues With Them. I Honestly Have Heard Lionel Trains Can Be God Awful.
As a matter of fact, there is a ATSF locomotive with that number. And this is what I found...
ATSF 4100 is a oil burning 1924 Baldwin Mikado class 4060 with 63" drivers and 27"x32" cylinders. The engine weight was 342,000 lb and it could produce a tractive effort of 62,949 lb. The class was scrapped between 1950-54.
I honestly didn't know Lionel made HO scale products. They're famous for their O scale products which has pretty good detail but a hefty price.
As an owner of their HO scale Polar Express… stay away from their HO products. Cheap and reissued of old tooling that they barely adjusted.
Yeah exactly - quite a surprise isn't it? Their HO stuff isn't notable though, if this is anything to go by!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
yea Lionel did make HO scale products before
their 1st run was from 1957 - 1967 and then for a 2nd time from 1974 - 1990 and then the one off veranda turbine in the early 2000s. They re-entered the HO scale line for a 3rd time in 2016.
go to train shows, the older cars show up quite allot
I have a few HO lionel cars from the 70s - 80s era. Not bad. On par with Bachmann or Life Like ready to run from that time. One interesting thing from that era, cars decorated for Canadian roads had the product number as the road number on the car or locomotive instead of using the prototypes actual road number. For example a CN stock car with product T-20140 would also have this on the cars side. US cars actually used the prototype cars road numbers. A bit of an oddity to do this.
Some pluses; 1) the controller looks plasticky, but works decently well. 2) real metal Kadee (TM) couplers - those should outlast the entire set! 3) it has a decent enough tender, and the 3-axle buckeye trucks (bogies) are reasonably close to the prototype, though they usually have brake cylinders mounted on them for this application (tenders), though not on - say - depressed-center flatcars. 4) the livery is simple and well applied, typical of AT&SF steam locomotives. I didn’t see any paint splatter or bleed-through on the white lettering. 5) The mechanism actually has brass/bronze bearings. 6) The choice of DC, DCC, their controller, or Bluetooth was a nice touch. It would have been interesting to see Sam download the app and try it that way. It’s just a shame they sold a toy train set at a price of a high-end model, like Athearn Genesis, Bachmann Spectrum, Atlas, Kato, or Broadway Limited. 😢 It at least didn’t have a fake plastic silver coin stuck on it - thank God! Or worse, “gold” coal! Gaaaa….!! (Run for the hills, folks!) If I ever see anything that atrocious again, I may have to make a trip over there and feed it to Sam’s train-eating zombie! 🤣😆😂
Lionel is a fascinating company to me, because I never associate them with modernity. To me they're the American equivalent of hornby, a company that is still around and has more value in being a name-brand then as a model company. Even checking the front page it's mostly brand colabs holiday stuff
I'm an American with an amateur knowledge of model trains, and that description seems very fitting to me. We have lots of companies like that in America, surviving just on their name alone. Many of these companies are going to fail as fewer and fewer people associate their name with the quality products of the past.
Look at their NASCAR stuff. It definitely fits that description.
@@Studio23Media Bachman
Come on - take ANY Hornby locomotive at random, and compared with this muck it's a work of art. As to what Hornby can do on a good day, comparisons are odious.
29:12 looks like is it chugging fairly close but I did see a slight de-sync. Berk’s chuff 4 times per driver revolution and have relatively small drivers since they were used on fast freights in the US, so it looks fairly close in the video.
the price was way too high. but it looks cool going down your track. you can disconnect the sensor and still have the other sounds and maybe the rapid fire chuffing will go away. its got problems, but its also not garbage.
Totally disagree, $389 for an entire set including DCC, loco, cars, track, and sound is actually a great price in todays market. Though the fact that it's garbage may be aproblem.
@@patrickadams1430 By European standards, the thing is a toy, and it's priced as a real scale model. Had it been selling for sub-£50, some confused granny might be tempted to buy it for a soon-to-be disappointed child.
From my time with Lionel I’ve found their postwar stuff to be much better when it comes to quality compared to their modern stuff, it’s also cheaper as well
That’s O Gauge stuff, Sam covers HO Scale.
@@TheCreativeType did u forget his O gauge layout he has
In stark contrast, the lionel HO challenger is a rather remarkable model... All metal so very heavy indeed. Sounds quality is ok for an mid 2000's release but the chuff isn't great.
Lionel's entry this time around into the HO market is bewildering. The products they've put forth and the prices they have them set at leave a lot to be desired. If they'd just stuck with polar express sets they would have done well in HO.
Hey Sam been watching you for two years and I would like to say thank you for getting me and my dad into hornby trains me and my dad didn’t even know that hornby trains even existed until we saw one of your videos two years ago and as soon as we saw one of your hornby train videos we where hooked to hornby trains and I would like to say thank you for getting us into British train hobby
Noted. Probably one I'd go after. After dealing with the "big 3" battleship classes (Yamato's Bismarck's, and Iowa's), and a variety of aircraft carrier classes, aswell as destroyers, cruisers, and submarines, I don't care for counting rivets. Most model railroaders probably wont get this, but worrying about that one lil' rivet, specific details, or accuracy takes a toll, and there is NO middle, the smaller you go, the smaller "easy sections" get, and the likelihood for mess ups goes up, the bigger you go, the more lil' details you notice, and the more resources & effort you gotta pour in go up. Y'all are lucky to get 99% of the actual "train" aspect of the hobby pre-built, and even luckier that half of the engines, and wagons exist in model form. I cant find a plastic assembled kit of a 1:35th scale CAT D7 any where, nor can I find a post 2010 Dodge Hellcat (before I'm flagged that's the name of the car), or a Peterbilt 389 flattop in scales larger than 1:64, or a variety of warships in any scale, such as the Allen M. Sumner's, Shimikaze, Lutzow (Battle of Jutland), or the California class guided missile cruisers for some examples.
22:55 “let’s get to work throwing this into the dust bin!” 😂
My first train was a MARX that I received for Christmas when I was 4 years old. I was happy as pie for many years. And that brings me to this Lionel you are featuring. I put it in the same class as my MARX, which is designed for small children. Only a lot more expensive than the MARX, even considering inflation since the MARX was new. I was really disappointed in this Lionel. Thanks for sharing.
It does seem to do four chuffs per rotation, which is fairly realistic. It's just that the model wheels seem to turn much faster than wheels IRL.
Its doing 5 chuffs per rotation. Check the crawl test at 26.50
@@oddballssherman3785 I checked and I still count four chuffs per rotation. One chuff every 90 degrees.
They are probably like "oh hey, this is an HO model, but let's put an O gauge price on it!"
Even Dapol's clearly-more-professional O gauge locos aren't that expansive
Great review. The diecast 0 scale lionel steam are a sight to behold, but this set looks slightly less than stellar.
You mention in the video the chuffing noise sounds like "machinegun fire". Incidentally, the term "Machine -Gunning" is a term used to describe badly programmed sound samplers by musicians and audio technicians. It is an effect that happens when the exact same audio clip is played over and over again at rapid pace (and it really doesn't seem to matter what kind of sound the sampler is playing). A good sampler will add variation to each clip (a common way is to randomaly vary the pitch each time the clip is played) or play from a pool of very similar but slightly different sounding clips to avoid this effect.
There is almost funtionally no difference between a sampler used to mimic a musical instrument for creating digital music, and the software in a sound decorder. The term you used is very apt.
I have a bunch of Lionel postwar trains from the 1950s. I have three postwar steam locomotives, the 1615 switcher, the 2037, and the 2055 Hudson.
Great review of such an abysmal train set. After hearing from these other commenters that Lionel has terrible track record for their HO scale models, one question comes to mind: ....why? Anyway, definitely expect to see this in the Top 5 Worst Trains of 2023 this year and hope nothing else is this bad
"I would look the other way and continue to die," "Let's get to work throwing it in the dustbin." I love these reviews of terrible trains, they totally crack me up.
Absolutely beautiful. How can anyone think this is worth that much? I'm now split between this and the queens train for requesting on sams trains live next...
Just have him double head them😎
Man, am I glad I saw this review!
I've been keeping my eye out to try Lionel's HO stuff. (For their HO set to be the price of an O gauge starter set? That has to be premium!)
You saved me the $300 I've been toying with trying one of these out.
Your next mission is to see if you can try out one of MTH's HO sets or engines. Now those ought to be worth the price!
MTH, HO and S scale molds and tooling has been sold to Scale Trains. They have brought out the 70 ton 3 bay open hopper that MTH included with their first DCC set. Scale Trains offers the MTH coal car in their "kit" line. I like both the MTH car and the Scale Trains car. Scale Trains has improved the lettering.
Glad for the $300 that are still yours
You are paying for the name and their Lionchief Bluetooth system which isn't worth the $300 they are asking IMO.
MTH is great until DCS fights your DCC system or you need warranty repairs. So glad that they sold their tooling to ScaleTrains, MTH really screwed over customers
The closest ATSF prototype to Lionel’s offering is going to be locomotive #4197, which was a 2-8-4 Berkshire previously owned by the Boston & Albany railroad, and later purchased and modified by the Santa Fe. The modifications included the addition of an Elesco feed water heater, oil conversion, and some changes to the boiler jacketing and lagging to help the locomotive better fit in on the ATSF roster. Lionel’s Berkshire is more similar to the Pere Marquette N1 prototype, right down to the flying number boards and boiler tube style pilot.
I can kinda forgive the "toy" look, since that's something Lionel is known for. It's like they're designed from photos/illustrations rather than schematics. They're kinda old fashioned that way.
However, I've seen O-gauge models from them that have that same "toy-like" aesthetic, yet there's QUALITY in that simplicity (e.g. die-cast construction). This feels less like a stylistic choice and more of them cheaping out; it smells of "you're buying the brand, not the product".
Yeah this was Lionel repurposing their polar express molds to try and create starter sets for a new market.
I genuinely love that Lionel engines these days have Bluetooth and remotes to allow any beginner to start running trains with more than just conventional transformer operations.
But these are garbage. They are reaching way beyond their means and don’t seem to know how to stay relevant in a vanishing market.
It's actually rather cheap for a DCC Equipped American train set, unfortunately. I bought the Cajon Flyer version of the set and was reasonably pleased with it as someone who doesn't use DCC. The fact that I can run it with sound without having to rewire my layout made it worth it for me. It's definitely not a great set though. You can also change sound settings in the Lionchief mobile app. I turned the chuffing way down the day I got it.
Total fair value for money; compared to the Queen Elizabeth Memorial Train that you reviewed a few weeks back.
Yeah, that was horribly gauche and WAY too expensive. At least this engine has operating valve gear, and a decent, if not spectacular, tender! 😌
Well Sam, had Lionel HO trains from their 70s dabble in HO and it is broken and not repairable. Remember not liking them as a kid, preferring Tyco and Athearn of the period. Own zero Lionel anything at moment in any gauge. Thanks for the review, the Berkshire is kinda their go to steam locomotive in any scale and while a nice loco as others have pointed out not many railroad companies used them.
To think this isnt being sold at a dollar store for $25 is mind blowing
Not in a good way tho
I reccomend you watch Eric's trains. He has an amazing o scale layout and collection and I would love to see the 2 of you collab and share eachothers knowledge:)
13:16 I'm really surprise because Lionel make a S gauge berkshire that is fully made of diecast.
Cheers Jasper & Willow
Oh nice!! Guess they weren't willing to make this one of the same quality ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
They own american flyer
Hey Sam. So a couple things. You said you think it’s a Berkshire. In the Whyte notation, which determines what type of locomotive a steam locomotive is, a 2-8-4 wheel arrangement is a Berkshire no matter what company made it and how the locomotive looks. If the wheel arrangement is a 2-8-4, it’s a Berkshire. Second thing is that obviously since Lionel is better at making O Gauge stuff and S Gauge stuff through they’re American Flyer line, I’d definitely recommend checking those out instead, they could never really hit the bullseye on HO gauge. As someone who owns a Lionel O Gauge set, I can confirm the O Gauge stuff feels a lot more solid. While the detail isn’t at all as good as the high end models (it’s meant more to be a toy train), the build quality is still monumental.
The sound sensor in the tender is such a cool idea!! And it sounds like a machine gun... 🤦🏻♂️🤣
I think for around £75 to £80 it would be good value. I'd buy it for that, maybe.
Lionel bought the molds from Model Power and added metal wheels and knuckle couplers
I thought those cars looked liked like the Model Power versions.
The suggested retail price is actually quite typical for an American HO train set, still a bit pricey for the detail even for American standards though, but not as drastically as it is for British stuff.
Yeah Lionel’s HO range is pretty bad. I got the polar express set way Back for Christmas and the thing kept derailing. I think you need to try out one of there o gauge products. They’ve got a few cheap tank engines for under 300 and from what I’ve sceen they can haul a lot. You would need to set it to 2 rail power though
Yes, I think I remember dropping that set off at your place, Jason! Yep, they're problematic with staying railed. By the way, appreciated the cookies and milk...hit the spot on a cold Christmas Eve night!!!!
Fun fact: since this is just a reskin of the polar express train set, the engine is a pere Marquette N-1 class Berkshire, which was never owned by the santa fe.
In for another one, eh, mate? Lovely..
i adore watching you rage!
haha thank you very much! :D
@@SamsTrains No Problem!
Sam, unfortunately Lionel "thought" it could compete with MTH HO Trains on the Cheap using old East German (DDR) tooling made in Chinese(PRC) Factories with the cheapest electronic components. The couplers are only good because they are from Kadee. It is very over priced for what it is.
Well I suppose it’s a step up (a BIG step up) from the Queen Elizabeth memorial train!
Being from Canada I’m used to engines here costing an arm and a leg for very little in return. That’s part of the reason I model British trains. Essentially it’s railroad locos for more than railways prices. To get a half decent detailed loco (especially steam) you need at least $600. So basically a Hornby Dublo loco price. It’s awful and there is very little in between
What makes it worse is that North American models rarely match specific prototypes. It sucks that it's also hard to find comprehensive guides to North American locomotives; Information on British locomotives is, on the other hand, quite easy to find (likely due to Thomas's popularity). I run 00-9/H0n30 myself, which has a fair bit of properly prototypical American locomotives, ironically enough.
@@ManOfUnknownWorth I wouldn't say due to Thomas popularity but the fact they invented the steam engine and more people in Britain use trains than in North America, so they are more popular/well-known to the public so greater work was done to preserve and educate people about their heritage.
The problem is that Lionel has not put any real effort into making a worth while Ho scale model, If they put the same amount of effort in the Ho scale line as they do with their O scale line they would be pretty good models.
Looked up AT&SF 4100 it appears to be a Mikado 2-8-2 not a Berkshire 2-8-4, the Berkshire was only owned by the Nickel Plate and it’s subsidiary Pere Marquette. It looks as though other railroads had 2-8-4 locomotives but not referred to as Berkshires. Same as the 4-8-4, most railroads referred to these as”Northerns”, but the NYC referred to their locomotives as “Niagara’s”.
Only one railroad don’t used the Berkshire for the 2-8-4. And that was the C&O
Unfortunate...Lionel has ALWAYS had an uneven at best involvment in HO scale, originally beginning in the late 1950s...then discontinued in the late 60's, then brought BACK in the 1970's/80's, then dropped AGAIN. What mystified me is the frankly strange track system...just to be diffrent I guess?
Lionels quality has taken a total nosedive thats for sure. Slightly older MTH products are looking much better if you ask me. After watching this vid, im no longer giving Lionel anymore of my hard earned money. Sam is absolutely right about everything in this set!
No sprung buffers is a deal breaker for me.
Sam, I would have told you to save your money and not buy the Lionel H.O. set.
027 is their thing, H.O. was always a sideline for them.
Buffers on a U.S. coach? Think again.
yeah that's lionel HO for you. the cars are based off of 60 foot comuter cars. The Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Railroad bought fifteen "Berkshires" type locomotives from the Baldwin Locomotive Works in 1927. These locomotives were designated as Class 4101 and assigned road numbers 4101 through 4115. The AT&SF was the only western railroad to have purchased new 2-8-4s.
haha yep ;D
I know it’s very expensive but I hope you will review the Märklin/Trix Flying Scotsman. Love your videos 🫶🏻
Great review of a rubbish product. You did a commendable job keeping your cool and giving it some credit for the good aspects (as few as there are).
That magnelock track is every bit as awful as I thought it would be. I've read reviews saying it's awful, but never seen anyone try it on carpet, which is one place where roadbed track would normally have an advantage over regular track.
I think, unless I'm proven wrong one day, those type of can motors are always 3 pole as I've never seen a 5 pole one. That tender sound sensor is like an electric version of those Triang Chuff Chuff soundboxes but not quite there yet, the chuff rhythm sounds like a traction engine going full blast down the road especially with the "speed" its doing. I do hate those unpainted drive wheels with how cheap they look!
Ah, Lionel. The reigning kings of O-gauge here in the US and a household name because of it, but yeah, their HO stuff is... unnoteworthy, at best. There's a reason barely anyone knows they make HO stuff in the first place. As you're probably aware and has been stated by American viewers before, there's other and _far_ better American HO manufacturers out there.
"Look the other way - and continue to die" 😂🤣. Made my weekend that Sam 👍😂.
Actually, when it runs it sounds like they're machine gunning them out of their misery anyway 😂.
As a kids toy (up to about 7 yrs old) it would be decent and have quite a bit of play value BUT the set should be no more than £100
I have more-or-less the opposite experience with my Lionel berkshire vs. Bachmann berkshire. The Lionel is strong and is not bullied by long trains nor hills, whereas the Bachmann motor is weak and balks on grades or when pulling long trains. There's no denying that the Lionel is very toylike in appearance but my experience with its running characteristics make it something better than a mere expensive toy. Unfortunately the homebrew control circuitry leaves something to be desired, with the built-in DCC compatibility failing and making the train come to a halt at random moments.
Regarding the sounds, they are not very immersive but it doesn't sound any worse than tsunami II decoders I've had the displeasure of listening to. I could rip the circuitry out and install loksound, but that's an additional $100 and I'm not about to fall into sunk cost for such a locomotive. The coaches were repaints of the Lionel's polar express and ran just fine. The truck-mounted couplers unscrewed and there were what appeared to be pilot holes designed for the attachment of a Kadee #5 coupler box, which was extremely impressive and I took advantage of it. Lionel's metal Kadee-compatible couplers, while extremely similar to Kadee couplers, are not manufactured to the same quality and the trip pin (the wire sticking out the bottom) can easily be worked loose with your fingers and the entire coupler falls apart, so those were replaced with real Kadees - as required by most all rolling stock anyway.
23:00 that pun you said actually has me laughing so much
The sound reminds me of Hornby's back when they were making 'toy' trains, when their Britannia (for instance) had what was effectively sandpaper against a strip of metal, in the tender... They also had an illuminated firebox, which I thought of as a toy feature - now these are regarded 'high quality' features!!!
This is a great review of a fiailed Lionel item. I don't know why they would make a crappy h o set like this and then charge a lot of money for it. And it's not just the h o I've noticed the o size Berkshires have crappy sound too unless you buy the $1,000 or $2,000 version. Better off getting a diesel. They sound more correct
Lionel has one thing going for it and that is the controller. If you can get the loco and remote only it's pretty good the track is trash. I wish I could see more companies do this because it would be great to have a controller for your loco on dcc without having to keep switching between them. If you do want to use your dcc controller you still have that option also.
Great review, Sam. And 'spot-on' I might add. Yep, you got 'bent over' pretty bad on that one, at that price. Last holiday season the Mrs. and I dropped off 8,365 of those sets to kiddos across the U.K., Canada, and the USA. We've never had such a barrage of complaints and name-calling, referring to me as 'a total fraud' and forbade me or Mrs. Clause to ever return again. We've had to outsource a ton of toys and other goodies since all of our Elves have gone totally 'woke' and refuse to work more than one hour of their typical eight hour day and have gone full union. Last season the price from our wholesaler to us was $19.95 per unit. Still too high in my opinion, but hey, that's just the way things are these days. Thanks again for a great review, can't wait for the next one!!!! Cheers!!!!
Great review. Thanks. I really expected better from Lionel. Here's hoping they get their act together. There are hints of ability. Just need to try harder. Oh, and Lionel, ALWAYS be honest.
Some people will defend Lionel but to be honest, all their stuff is solidly in "toy" category. Even their "O" gauge products aren't really scale models: they travel on that ancient three-rail track and most of it is plastic. The older stuff has some appeal for the same reason that historic Basset-Lowke and tinplate stuff does. Basically deliberately childish toys of variable quality. Sure they make some higher-end (compared to their standard product) locomotives but it's still not meant for serious modellers. Not in a world where finescale "O" scale models are available, even live steam for goodness' sake. Lionel is only meant for toy collectors, not model enthusiasts. This particular HO train set is particularly reprehensible. I wouldn't buy anything from a company that attached their name to a vile product like this.
Sam, wonderful video as always.. As previously mentioned, Lionel does well in O gauge. This is their third attempt at HO gauge. Their first attempt, they just rebranded Athearn and Rivarrossi pieces. Also your Hospital train, the bogies on the coaches or as well call them "trucks" should be 3 axles and not 2. Those coaches are nicknamed "Heavyweights" due to their real world counterpart's weight. And i should note that those trucks appear to be very similar to the old "TYCO" and or "LIFE LIKE' trucks (the tell is the part where they mount to the coach chassis. However, its a childs toy. Wonderful how you are able to import our American pattern trains to the UK with relative ease... I on the other hand have only dealt with Hattons, and Rails of Sheffield and the Hornby that i purchased and had shipped over here, due to the exchange rates and shipping was very expenisve... Cheers mate
You can see why Lionel have gone bust several times. Didn't Canadian hippy Neil Young buy them out of oblivion a few years back?
I’m pretty sure this set will put you in the hospital after seeing the value for money (or lack thereof)!
I own the HO Lionel polar express and i can confirm its virtually identical other than the livery and added number board parts
p.s. you should look for buying a rivarossi big boy, theyre vintage yet affordable and will work on the track you have (2nd radius aka 22inch) i own one and other than the noise is a pleasure to run
In the 1970s and 1980s,Lionel HO trains were the same as the Bachmann trains except for the paint liveries. In the 50s and 60s the HO the line were copies of their O gauge line
One thing to keep in mind
A lot of Americans want a very large layout and thus usually have steep grades and curves but they want to run very long trains like for example 15 car passenger trains with each one being 85’ long which I think is close to 12 inches each.
Most American steam engines have traction tires because even heavy locomotives need the tires to pull the long heavy trains up steep grades with curves
no serious modeler would buy any of the Lionel HO products
My impression of Lionel trains these days is that they really are closer to toys than realistic models. When they're not making train sets in nauseating colors like baby blue or neon green, they've got trains like these that try to be realistic but aren't that great with details, which would be enough to impress a younger kid but not a serious modeler. They're kind of an in-between of plastic or wooden toy trains and detailed scale models
Lionel has always made both toys & models, in their catalog it's even separated, starting with high-end O scale models, moving down to cheaper sets for kids that are genuinely toys and not trying to be realistic.
TBH - it doesn't seem expensive for a FULL train set.
Lionel (founded in 1900 by an American guy called Joshua Lionel Cowan) was always regarded in America as a Kids Toy Train Set, ideal as a Christmas present that would last a short time & then be through in the skip.
But they did also generate an adult following in America & lots of early ones still survive, probably because they were not played with much.
We in Britain had a similar company after WW2 - Rovex in Margate.
They made the cheap & cheerful (but shoddy) Triang Railways of the mid 50s & 60s.
They could never match Hornby Doublo for quality but they sold well in austerity Britain where money was scarce.
Triang Railways was just a Kids Toy Trainset.
Everything in Triang Trains was made of highly colourful plastic, I don't think any metal was used in any product, except the electric motors of course.
And I do mean CHEAP & NASTY PLASTIC.
As we know both Hornby & Triang eventually went bust, but the Hornby name was resurrected & they now reside in the old Triang factory in Margate.
Interestingly, Lionel and Tri-ang both struck a deal in the early 60's; while Lionel manufactured and sold the 'Scalextric' slot car range for the American market, while Tri-ang distributed Lionel's science kits (sold as "Tri-ang Lionel"), as well as integrating some of their HO rolling stock. The R345 Tipping Wagon, R249 Exploding Boxcar, and R128 Helicopter Car were all originally Lionel products.
"Lionel (founded in 1900 by an American guy called Joshua Lionel Cowan) was always regarded in America as a Kids Toy Train Set, ideal as a Christmas present that would last a short time & then be through in the skip. But they did also generate an adult following in America & lots of early ones still survive, probably because they were not played with much." I don't know where you got that information from that Lionel was seen as a cheap toy that wouldn't last. Reality shows otherwise and there are train shows and eBay listings today full of old 1940's-1960's Lionel trains well used/ran that are still available that will run. They were built to last and the cost reflected that. Even with Lionel's problems today people are looking to get back in to their old trains because that is how reliable, well-built, and simple they were.
I have a feeling we’ll be seeing this locomotive again in late December…
Hmmm..Lionel.... I have a few Lionel bits and pieces...they are more a toy than a model...
It is interesting to note that, the trains Gomez used to blow up on the Addam's Family TV show, were Lionel....nuff said... 🚂
At least it hasn't got a dime glued to the smokebox...
I think the flaw with the chuffing sound is that the sensor is on the tender wheels. And those are smaller than the wheels of the locomotive itself. So these smaller wheels turn faster and so make the sound out of sync with the locomotive. So they either should have compensated for the faster turning speed in the coding or just have moved the sensor to the locomotive wheels.
In my past experiences i discovered that i absolutely despise app controlled trains. Every single time i tried to download the app, i ended up getting a virus or my cell phone locked out. I decided after several tries to just stick to dc...it's most reliable,lol. Also..the coaches are just re-tooled Life-Like/Model Power , Harriman Coaches . I have several in Santa Fe paint scheme. The best one could do with those is swap out the axles/wheels with insulated metal wheels as they prove better for running them. Also...get an "axle tuner" tool. With that the truck/wheel frames can be worked on for better wheel running.
As a O scale modeler, I can tell you that 300usd is on the high end of Lionel's starter sets. I have a ATSF Passenger set from them that was 250usd but to me its worth it, its not too detailed on the engine its reliable and fun.
I have never seen thier ho, and it being on the high-end of the pricing and the "features" its just a staple of this era of lionel aka take a 100 dollar engine, shove prototype features that will never return on it then sell it for the price of a good MTH locomotive.
The price for return comes from USED loinel legacy stuff, to buy it new at the cheapest is 600usd+
I am with you 100% with regards to the traction tyres or (tires) as so spelt in the US. You mention of the expence of this, at £182 We are not going to get a train set any better than this for the same price, over here. It may turn out to be a good starter set for youngsters? I agree that the carriages should have been seen to have some sort of beds, at least in one of the carriages.
your telling me. Lionel says that there are different ho scale Berkshires if you don't want the polar express. but there isn't they are all the same but with different coaches and colors nor do they bother to make different ho scale engines
Lionel has never really been too good with HO scale stuff. Their O scale products are amazing, however. I recon Lionel should stick to what they know, O scale. My guess is that a lot of the cost of this set goes twards all the tech that is inside of the loco. It's great and innovative, but apparently comes at the cost of sacrificing detail. Bummer!
I guess we need a new can a model train run underwater dcc edition and this is the perfect candidate for it😂
Lionel literally just took one of their o gauge sets- including the ruggedness/lack of separate detail, the sound system and metal couplers and shrunk it down to HO/OO. I would say try Lionel O gauge but I'd be lying to myself if I did say that. Just get an MTH HO engine and see some *actual* American quality.
Finally you give Lionel!(and O scale)A chance ive een waiting fot this for years you should try some of there massive models like the UP 4-12-2
"Sounds like a tractor" would have spilt my tea if I was holding any! Thanks for showing us though, Sam.
I’m fairly certain those coaches are just ModelPower 67’ Harriman Coaches with bogies modified to have kadee couplings. Even the interiors are identical, in the same colour too.
Lionel is frozen in the sixties. I'm not surprised at the horrible detail, cheap plastic everywhere, ridiculous track, incredibly clunky remote. The only thing that would surprise me is if you ever bought another Lionel product. Great and honest review once again, keep them coming Sam!
If you would like, it isn't much consolation, but if you use the Bluetooth app on your phone, you can adjust the sound settings to lower the volume or even silence certain noises, like the obnoxious chuffing. I've done so on mine, and now only the horn, bell and voice make noise. Not that it makes the train worth it, but it does provide some relief
Loved Lionel for many years, I'm very sorry to see you have such a shotty experience with it. I can assure you the o scale engines are much better than this, and I've heard that the polar Express HO is actually good. Don't worry, not all the engines are like this 😢