The Character that RUINED Dragon Ball?
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- čas přidán 20. 05. 2022
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Did the Bardock and Dragon Ball Super just ruin Dragon Ball? Ruined or not, this is delicate situation Dragon Ball is facing. I've loved Dragon Ball for about as long as I can remember but and I've always been able to look back on early Dragon Ball as something that will always be there. Remaining unaffected by the changing modern landscape of Toyotaro and Toriyama as they march into Dragon Ball Super's Granola arc.
But today... today it's different.
MistareFusion's video - www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPCEf...
MUSIC USED:
-M1007 (DBZ)
-Bardock Falls (Cover by MajinBlue)
-Bardock's Theme (Solid State Scouter)
-Omen of Victory (DBS)
-M817 (DBZ)
-M438 (DB)
-M517 (DB)
-Bad Message (DBGT)
-Bad Situation (DBGT)
-Bardock's Theme (DB FigtherZ)
-Perverted Kame Senin (DBGT)
-M1814 (DBZ)
-Cope-a-Cabana (Chris Voiceman)
--------------------------------------------
MY PATREON: / totallynotmark
MY TWITTER: / totallynotmark
EDITOR:
Video edited by Editor-San - Zábava
Bardock was a messy character, but he was a BRILLIANT SCIENTIST!!
@ска get outta here spambot
He is something of a scientist himself
I CAN SEE THE FUTURE
That may be so, but he's a terrible video editor!!
@@OneMediocreGamer I'M ON FIRE
It cracks me up how Dragon Ball nowadays has kinda become one of those CHOOSE YOUR ADVENTURE type books lmaoo
Original Story DB to DBZ
DB to DBZ + Bardock special
DB to DBZ + Bardock Special + Certain movies from the original 13 you can squeeze in & make them fit the story
DB to DBZ + Bardock special + Certian DBZ movies + Dragonball GT
DB to DBZ to Super
DB to DBZ to Super (But actively ignoring the bad parts)
Etc Etc etc.
hahahaha
😂😂 yooooooo I never thought about it like dat! Me personally I choose all of it! Good bad and ugly
Who knows 🤷♂️ I just enjoy dragon ball in general such a great story and especially such an awesome universe they have with many boundless adventures waiting to be revealed in the future coz dragon ball is a billion digit intellectual property.
Lol its becoming like Star Wars.
As someone who got into the series two years ago the first choice with the three most recent movies are my choice everything else is manga only.
I think we all know deep down that the true cannon is DBZA.
The whole argument of a magical wish granting dragon was the reason for Goku's feats falls flat, if you consider Raditz. Raditz had no contribution or impressive feats whatsoever.
I think the wish only gave them the opportunity to survive the extinction of the Saiyans, that's it, nothing more.
yeah everyone (myself included) was looking into it way too much, vegeta literally mentions that the wish is how they escaped the planet exploding, not how he defeated villains and lived until adulthood etc, vegeta would have had way more to say if that was the case, cause that would mean the wish protected him from frieza, from vegeta when they originally fought etc... its clear the wish just had them survive the planet exploding
Akira is scrapping the manga so it’s all irrelevant now
@@VARIATIONofficial how is he scrapping the manga?
@@Nevvay there are two continuities now akira and toyotaro basically akira is continuing the new anime and so forth after super hero with out toyotaros manga and toyotaro is continuing without akira ideas but if you ask me the only continuity is really akiras cause it’s his franchise
@@VARIATIONofficial where is the source for this. As far as I know, Toriyama is now writing the story and Toyotaro is drawing
I don’t see how Bardock’s wish could be responsible for Goku’s success because it would have to be equally true for Raditz, who is currently dead and in hell
Next Arc, we find out that Raditz was not actually Bardock's son and Bardock didn't know, lmao
@@HyperDefective Raditz was secretly Nappa's son the entire time!
Yeah these debates are equally dumb.
because it nullified once they met
Not Only That Goku Was always training to get stronger
The only funny takeaway from this, is the theory/interpretation of this dragon giving monkey paw sort of wishes, and that Goku and Raditz grew up well only to immediately die together as soon as they met in adulthood.
Can’t be too well if you’re at your sibling’s throat
Lol
If this “plot twist” had been sincerely seeded(and didn’t run counter to most of the reasons we love Dragon Ball), the wish failing to protect Raditz or Goku from each other would be make for a genuinely compelling and tragic plot point. As it is… it’s kind of morbidly funny?
@@mr.skateandwatch both Goku & Raditz we're adults already when they met though.
Goku was 23
Did I just find *the* XV2 Modder in the comment section? If so, nice mods chief. Really like them, keep 'em up.
Less monkey paw and more wish cancelation. Goku and Raditz were both wished to survive no matter what. When pitted against each other, their divine protection was canceled.
I showed the Bardock quote to my Japanese wife, and she said "it's kind of like he's saying he hopes his son's grow up well, like any other people, not that they'd be extraordinary or invincible or anything. And the way he put it was like he didn't even really care much, like 'I don't know, I guess I could wish for this'."
That’s how I thought of it, too. Bardock’s “wish” is not much more than an abstract hope, and is it *really* proven that Toronbo granted it? Monaito could just as well have sent him away instead without another wish.
this needs to be pinned
Absolutely agree with that take. When Mark revealed the line, I was like... that's it? That's such a well-meaning, innocuous line from a father simply wishing his sons wellQ I know DBZ gets pretty out there but I feel like even Toriyama wouldn't use his magic wish-granting dragon to have manipulated the Goku's FATE in life.
THIS
Surviving and growing well is not the same thing as saving the freaking world many times and becoming one of the most powerful warriors in the universe. I think Goku still achieved pretty much everything by his own merits, being alive just gave him the opportunity to do so.
yeah that would work if he literally wasn't making it on a wish granting dragon. and because he didnt care much by your words the dragon could do whatever it wanted to make sure that it came true
as an asian american, bardock’s line sounded really innocuous to me. wishing someone good health or that they grow up strong has similar vibes to wishing someone has a nice day, at least in chinese culture. to me, this wish doesnt sound like it has anything to do with granting goku literal strength or good health, its more of a blessing a parent gives his child before they leave each other
The obvious distinction is that this blessing is implied to have been passed on to a magical wish-granting dragon. Wishing for good health is one thing but when you have a supernatural entity who can actually guarantee it your words carry a little more weight.
I wonder if the wish only means that goku is guaranteed to be healthy as as long as he is alive and growing, it wouldn't save him from death or prevent it.
We often say "good luck" but even the best luck can't prevent all misfortune
When Bardock made the wish, it seem like parent who cares a lot about their children future would make that wish.
I am from Argentina and I get the same feeling. It's like wishing it to grow eating vegetables and suffer no disease, nothing else. It doesn't mean "Hey beat the crap out of every alien you encounter"
the meaning is different, but saying that phrase to a being that can grant wishes and doesn't know what the phrase actually means, well, you probably know what happens
Mark: "As he was now destined to grow up healthy or well"
Heart Virus: Am I a joke to you?
future trunks: No, you screwed my timeline.
A black guy killed my mom.
Grow up implies childhood to adulthood. By the time he dies of that virus he is over the age of 18.
Radditz: am I a joke to you?
@Raditz
You're a joke to everyone.
Also, you survived to adulthood.
@@saint037everyone:yes
People need to stop putting Bardock on a golden pedestal and worship him.
Goku's real father is Grandpa Gohan, he is the one who raises him, he is the one who gives him the passion for martial arts and for fighting.
*slow clap*
I think that summarizes my problems with how Toriyama writes Bardock.
*He keeps trying to make him into Gohan.*
If DC realized this applied to Superman and Pa Kent, we might actually get a decent Superman movie someday
No correlation...
@Knox2Don Tell me you didn't watch No Way Home without telling me you didn't watch No Way Home.
Iron Man isn't the Uncle Ben replacement. Aunt May is.
Japanese American here. I'm a native speaker of both languages.
I thought this topic was very interesting since this subject never came up within my circle of Japanese friends, nor have I seen any Japanese Dragonball CZcamsrs covering this specific subject. I probably would have never even known about this had I not seen this video. (Thanks Mark!)
The original Japanese text is written in such a way that a native Japanese speaker would interpret Bardock's line as a joke. (I'm 100% confident every native Japanese person that read the book would agree with me). It may seem like another "lost in translation" case, but i simply think an accurate translation can't be made with the limited text bubble space given, and the translators made a compromise.
With that said, the operative word in the phrase is "とでも" (to-de-mo), which is only used when the speaker doesn't really care about how the other person interprets the comment. (used in a similar fashion as "if you say so", where you don't agree with the other person but decided just to go with it because they won't budge)
In other words Bardock merely wished for his son's to grow up healthy because thats what's "expected" from a "loving" father. The "joke" part is that in reality he actually didn't care, which I think ties in perfectly with his little smirk. Perhaps adding "there, satisfied?" at the end would have translated better.
In addition, he starts off the line by saying "だったら" (dattara), which means "in that case" or "if you insist" (in this instance more like "since you won't shut up"), proving that he actually didn't want to make/didn't care for a wish, but only made one because he was insisted to do so. Since he was insisted to make a wish, he went with something that would satisfy the person making the request. This starter line is also written in a separate text bubble that comes before the actual wish, hinting that his wish was more of an afterthought.
Last but not least, the phrase "すくすく" (suku-suku) translates to "unhindered" or "without complication", and does not necessarily mean "strong". I suppose this may add a bit more depth since Bardock didn't expect his low-class son's to be powerful Saiyans in the first place. This "すくすく" is only used when speaking of children, and I think this also shows that Bardock couldn't care less as to what kind of adults his kids would turn out to be. Japanese readers would have immediately picked up on the irony of him using such a word, especially if they knew Bardock's character and personality since the word would only be used by a loving and caring individual.
In conclusion, from a Japanese perspective this was exactly what one would expect Bardock to say in this situation.
Both Goku and Raditz did indeed grow up to be adults, so in that sense one can speculate that his wish was indeed accepted and granted. However at the same time I think we're lacking proof/context to conclusively say this is the case.
you do realize by your own words this wish taints everything at the very least from dragonball the very basis and foundation of the character. every time he over came the odds through toughness and determination is now just a wish granting dragon granted a wish and now it has to make sure goku makes it till adult hood
@@frankcasamento74 Good point, and I'm glad you brought this up. I'm no linguistic expert so I hope you can bear with me. In Japanese, when a sentence is started with "dattara" (if you insist/since you're forcing me) and end it with "to-de-mo itte oko-ka" (loosely translates to "I'm just gonna leave it at that") it makes the entire phrase open to interpretation by the opposing person. You can almost go so far as to say that this specific sentence structure intentionally suggests that the speaker is not serious, especially with "dattara" (a word that shows opposition) being at the beginning of his sentence. Therefore, its entirely possible that the wish granting dragon did not take Bardock's wish seriously and had no effect on Goku's life. His choice of words makes it seem like even Bardock himself can't believe the words coming out of his own mouth, and see's the irony in his wish.
I think the translator went with more of a direct translation and ignored any subtle nuances due to the text bubble restriction. Within the Dragonball fanbase in Japan, its common knowledge that most of the people working on modern day Dragonball doesn't have the knowledge/background to fully satisfy true fans as a lot of them did not grow up watching Dragonball (or at least did not watch the older stuff). This is obvious in Dragonaball games as well (such as Dokkan Battle) where the game creators made mistakes that suggest they aren't quite the "otaku's" fans hoped for.
As far as the translation goes, these kinds of "lost in translation" cases are very common for Japanese companies that tailor to an international audience. Its always "do we go with a direct translation, or do we put more emphases on the nuance to portray the dialog more accurately". Unfortunately, direct translations are more common as the translator does not need much context.
A nuance oriented translation of Bardock's dialog here would be something like:
"If you so insist...how's "i hope my son's grow up to be healthy". There, satisfied? Take it or leave it".
Of course, this is a "nuance" oriented translation so its not word-for-word, but I think you get the idea.
Thank you so much for this explanation
It doesnt help that powerscalers have a habit of taking this shit literally at first glance.
Great breakdown but I must say. Even in English it was made pretty clear that Bardock didnt really take Monaito seriously, at least for me. The question is if Monaito took Bardock seriously and literally granted the wish Bardock spoke, which I dont think Monaito did.
He wished health for Goku? But he literally suffered from a heart desease during the Cell arc
Also, he died multiple times.
the wish was for them to grow healthy and well, by the time of the androids, goku stopped growing
Goku was an adult by that time, also the wish ended when both Goku and Raditz died
In Z, that happens because the wish cancelled out after his fight with Raditz, Watch Og DB, you'll understand where Mark us coming from.
"Cancelled out" wtf are you talking about? Also, growing up under Vegeta's heel, being mocked and abused on a daily basis, hardly sounds like growing up healthy and well. Toriyama created the most influential manga of all time, but he self-admittedly is an ass writer who flies by the seat of his pants. Dragonball isn't that deep, I wish the fandom would stop pretending it was. @@kesenaememere8520
that was only for the db era,before dbz
Digging way too deep into this one. Thriving doesn't translate to automatically win everything. Not to mention in the original timeline Goku dies from the heart virus so there's plenty of instances to show the contrary. There is such a thing called overanalyzing.
Exactly
I mean, to be fair, Vegeta seemed to interpret it in that way
@@kmgyening yeah but vegeta also let cell power up to perfect
@@koolkidkam9807 What does that have to do with what I said? Are you perhaps suggesting that because Vegeta did that particularly stupid thing in the Cell Arc, that his judgment or interpretation in this recent chapter is not valid? If so, that doesn't logically follow.
@@kmgyening no I am just stating vegeta did that
I’d say it’s important to note that the wish is for his “sons” implying that Radits was apart of the wish as well. Yet he still ended up dying and staying dead at the hands of Goku.
But was he thriving?
well to be fair, they BOTH die
If the wish was "to grow up strong", then he was protected too, during his childhood. Then, once he was a adult, he died 😂
Well he was thriving though, relatively. He was found by Vegeta and Nappa who at the time were top tier fighters that allowed him to get stronger and gain some protection
Once he became an adult, he basically instantly died to Goku and Piccolo
AFTER he grew up to be "big and strong" as the more accurate translation stated.
I think it's a bit silly to take a generalized wish like "I wish for my sons to grow up healthy and strong" and to then try to use that as a vehicle to argue that *all* of Goku's accomplishments were divine providence, shielding him from death all the way up to the point where he currently is.
I mean, even as far as health goes, Goku caught a terminal heart disease that outright killed him in the original timeline, so clearly that wish either never made it to the dragon or had an expiration date
That’s true but then that may bring the question of if them even remembering that the heart disease was a thing
Yeah Dragon ball fans will literally take anything and stretch it to the end of the Earth, a level of consistent stupidity by such large group is honestly impressive
not to mention that those dragons can't really protect anyone from forces stronger than him, like Shenron with vegeta and nappa.
And seeing how the old version of picolo EASILY killed Shenron, pretty sure the wish's protection range ended pretty quickly in the main story if there was any at all
But he caught that after he already died once. Which you could argue voided the wishes affect.
@@frenchfriedbagel7035 And that argument would mean it doesn't make sense to say that all of Goku's feats beyond when he initially died (and this is early Saiyan arc mind you, before he even meets Nappa/Vegeta) are a result of/ are cheapened due to Bardock's wish.
I love that goku is accepting his sayain heritage. Even if Bardocks wish is what kept them alive until they were adults, I dont feel that takes away from gokus struggles in dragonball. Just surviving doesn't let you defeat enemies. It still took Gokus skill and determination to win all the fights, just surviving would mean defeat.
Man, what I love about the Bardock OVA is than is just the Superman origin but everything is twisted. Goku's father don't love him, the childrens when they born are cataloguize for there level and the lowes are just threw in planets with low level fighters, the saiyans are showed like an ally of Freezer, they don't shown compassion, they are just criminals and a wild species, putting in the fact than they deserve the destruction of their planet. Putting Goku just like unique on his kind and the reason why is different is because he was raised in the Earth.
But Minus and the Broly movie just destroys everything. Goku is just basically Superman, his parents love him (more than Raditz apparently), the saiyans are now a species conquered and controlled by Freezer's family, they even showed than the Saiyans are mostly kind and normal like Goku's mom and some other Saiyan in the background. Heck, now they even show Bardock as a good person now. This retcons aren't my cup of tea.
I think maybe all this is putting Vegetta through a better place because now he is now putting the effort to be the best, meanwhile Goku it was destined to be the best.
You described everything I hate about DBS Saiyans. Its pretty weird/gross to humanize a group of genocidal maniacs that brought about their own annihilation, fictional or no. And Dragon Ball isn't the only form of media guilty of this.
@@concept5631I completely disregard DBS storyline altogether and just stick with the original sayians storyline from DBZ
@@dontayewhittaker5687 Understandable
@@concept5631 I call this trend the "Thanos Effect". Ever since the success of Infinity War, writers across all genres have excessively utilized the "sympathetic villain" for new characters, or as with the Saiyans, retroactively apply a layer of "actually, they weren't so bad" to them. No matter if it fits or not.
@@vahlen5281because there's more than just one side of the coin dude, not everything is black and white and not everyone is bad and good
Bardock: "I wish my sons grow up healthy"
Goku: *catches a 1 on a million heart disease at the age of 30*
When he is an adult
He was almost 30 at the time...
tbf he was already grown
@@gamma2isachad338 A grown up.
Who wasn't healthy !
Also, that's just a joke.
@@KalaamNozalys yea don't take it seriously
Everyone's focused on the implications of Bardock's wish on Goku, understandably. However, what about the implications on Raditz? Or are we to assume that once Raditz and Goku meet at the start of DBZ, they are grown up and the wish has now been fulfilled? I guess since both Raditz and Goku die at the same time, the wish has been completed, but I'm not confident. Too much nuance.
Since the wishes made from that dragon have a monkey paw effect they'll probably put the downside of the wish as both sons will die once they hit adulthood
Yeah the wish is too vague to make concrete conclusions. One hand if the wish to for Goku and Raditz to thrive happened then its a plothole because Raditz was always fodder. He was literally Saibamen level and seen as a joke to Vegeta and Nappa. 2nd the wish provided an escape route from Planet Vegeta
Since Piccolo, the son of the devil/nephew of God, killed him, I think their death was almost divine justice.
@@SuperSpectrom I don’t think either titles are actually accurate, since piccolo’s race are now known to be more-or-less slug people and the actual gods are the kai rather than kami
@@cosmoblender I just meant in their original interpretation. Kami was God in dragon ball while piccolo was the devil.
This is why I can’t really take some dragonball fans seriously, they take something a caring father would say if he was given a wish and turn it into an event that breaks the story.
Because Bardock's original character didn't care about Goku, and was a more unique and cold person, rather than bastardized into a cliche Jor-El archetype. And in the original series, Goku was an outcast, this changes that theme entirely.
@@urbanyouths which was better. OG Bardock was way superior.
@@california816 The people who like the bastardized newer version just like it cause it comes from something that has Dragon Ball written on it. That's why that garbage Heroes is popular, too.
@@urbanyouths That's the straight goods. I won't call you a liar.
but it did break the story goku was supposed to be unremarkable and become remarkable not be a guy who became strong because of chance
I really feel like this an incredible amount of over analyzation of that dialogue.
Not to say I don’t agree with your point here: if the wish granted did in fact grant essentially a special power to Goku, it would retroactively ruin basically the meaning of every past struggle since he was always “destined” to succeed.
But I really feel like that’s not the case. A lot of comments of Japanese speakers here talk as if the original dialogue was more a joke of something bardock said only because he was insisted to, which I think is a very compelling argument.
But even ignoring that, what we can’t ignore is that both Goku and Raditz get their asses kicked and get killed throughout the whole of the series (well technically Raditz dies once but you get the point). And if the wish was granted in a way to grant essentially divine convenience to Bardocks sons, than why the hell was Raditz completely ignored? Did the dragon just say “Nah, fuck the long haired one specifically. Hate that guy.”
What I’m trying to say is that there’s no serious evidence in the whole of the series that gives credence to the argument that Bardock’s wish was granted in that specific way. Goku has to fight and train for everything, he’s only granted more power when he earns it or when he gets his ass kicked and gets a zenkai boost.
It could be that there’s no evidence because this is a very recent development and this is a pretty old story, but if that were the case, I feel like we’d be given some more specifics as to what exactly is different (like with how potara earrings were changed in super).
I can understand where you’re coming from, but it feels incredibly rash, especially since the story isn’t fully out yet.
Also didn’t you say you wouldn’t review an arc again until it was finished? You did the exact same thing with the Moro arc and his wish of freeing all the galactic prisoners. This just feels like an oversight to me.
With that said, I love your videos and appreciate your effort to a great extent, even if I disagree with you on this particular matter.
then that's still a contradiction because if bardic wished fro them to thrive then why did radiate die and Goku died multiple times
this isn't super retconning its more of super adding something in that rendered pointless by the canon and I'm wondering why they decided to have him make the wish in the first place
@@Galvatronover May be a little late but one of the themes of the arc is that wishes are supposed to be selfless in nature, not granolah's wishing to take revenge. Monaito realizes this if you reread the chapter.
I personally prefer the original bardock I prefer his story and it makes him stand out as a Father as he was never a good person. And he doesn't have the superman backstory.
Was the original bardock written by toriyama?
@@user-iz5eg3nr4l na it wasn’t but toriyama had talked about him rlly loving that take on bardock so no idea why he decided to create minus
@@user-iz5eg3nr4l Toriyama helped with the design of Bardock, but he was not involved with the TV special.
Same, I sort of felt the ominous foreshadowing when Toriyama said he liked it but also said it was something he couldn’t draw himself.
Also, I disagree with Mark. The seeing the future aspect was the coolest part imho. It was like seeing your own death but pressing on anyway. I loved that.
Honestly dragon ball can use more psychics or vertical power progression. After a while, all the energy blasts and shapes look the same…
Dragon bull super is so dreadful ruining everything man , I loved the old adaptation of bardock and even broly now. Super is a cash grab and the tone is insulting to fans. The world building and character building is awful. Dragons bull fans don't want to admit it but they are ripping us off.
I think this was taken way too seriously than needed. Theres a lot of things contradicted if that "wish" were true for the story and it doesnt really add anything if it is true. For example, Raditz being dead and in the original timeline Goku died of a heart attack, therefore, Goku did have to have an impact in his own life to craft his destiny
A random man from the future coming back in order to give you the antidote cuz if not you die is literally divine intervention. And yes, Raditz died, but he was fighting Goku..so it was plot/wish armor vs plot/wish armor....basically...Goku would've been the only one capable of creating the circumstances of Raditz dying especially because he is aswell under the protection of the wish. And dont forget that they both died at the same time ...
Another thing, people say that the wish made Goku stronger, like it wasn't because of his training, yet Raditz, which the wish did apply to, was considered weak.
@@jasonone8726 raditz and goku both died but goku had friends to wish him back. Raditz used to annihilate whole planets so I wouldn't say weak. Also Super doesn't follow Z it rewrites all thst shit. Not canon
@@sorakazama7031 Raditz was considered weak, by Vegeta and Nappa, it was even stated, that he was on the level of a Saibamen, he wasn't all that, if the wish did make them stronger, Raditz would've been better.
@@jasonone8726 yeah but at that time no one on earth and majority of the universe would have lost to em. Vegeta and nappa were fodder to frieza henchmen. Frieza henchman were faddor to ginyu force,ginyu force were fordder to frieza, frieza was fodder to king cold, king cold fodder to trunks, trunks fodder to androids, androids fodder to cell. Do you see how that works? Ui goku is garbage and weak compared to granolah and Gas. There is always a bigger fish so by your logic nobody is ever strong.
Bardock's wish seems like a general wish that any father would make. I understand in context to the story that strength, and the gaining of it, is a key theme, but having already seen a vision of Goku defeating Freeza, the strength that he wished for is perhaps something more ephemeral. Such as the strength to move forward despite the extinction of his peoplike the extinction of his people. Furthermore, Radditz Died so early in the series and was relatively awakening in the grand scheme of things.. He was goku's 1st introduction to this new level strength in the Z saga. However he was extremely low class equivalent to a lowly saibaman. If this wish truly had the ramifications that everyone thinks it does then wouldn't Radditz have been a unsurpassed warrior just like goku?
Yuo know that bardock seeing goku against frieza is filler right?
Why didn’t Bardock wish back the Sayions or Gine 😂
@@lenkiutchimaki472 🤓
@@roxtechsBecause it was before the Saiyans got wiped out
Did people forget that Kakarot got amnesia when he arrived?! Forgive my skepticism but, having amnesia isn't exactly the healthiest thing! In fact, some would say an amnesia is the death of a person, or at least what he was before his memories were lost! So not only did the dragon fail in keeping Kakarot healthy, he isn't even Kakarot the son of Bardock anymore. Instead he's an amnesiac kid named Goku who was adopted by an old man named Gohan. Seriously, some people will manufacture outrage from the silliest things. Kinda makes you understand why Toei has to do what they do sometimes.
Massive copium
You’re reaching really hard
People(Toriyama) also forget Goku was a baby when that happened
@@alexisreyna2423 How?
@@dabonethug DB fans when basic logic
I feel that people are looking at the whole wish thing from a much more human perspective where as I feel if you look at this from a saiyan's perspective wouldn't the wish for Goku and Raditz ( “I wish they grow up fine”) mean fighting tough opponents and always getting stronger. This makes much more sense in my opinion and kind of explains why there's always turmoil surrounding Goku no matter where he goes. It also fits into Mr. Popo's lesson to Goku in early Dragon Ball, "But learn this now. No matter how strong you are, there will always be someone stronger who comes along. To stay on top, you must keep pushing past what you think is strength.", Bardock's wish ensures that Goku always has a tougher opponent to test himself against be that either good or bad.
Based
I feel like if it was this, someone like Bardock would've worded it differently. Dragonball is not a series that utilises nuance, especially explain-everything-Super, so I wouldn't go past the surface-level when thinking about the implications surrounding an event in this story.
I agree
The translation I got was I hoped my son thrived, which I do like.
The wish could be interpreted in so many ways is like debating how did goku get the heart virus. I see the wish as ensuring their sons end up in a position where they can grow, like for example goku being found by grandpa gohan and falling hitting his head making goku easier for grandpa gohan to take care of and train. For Raditz being placed in vegeta's squad surviving the extermination of the sayians and being able to grow along side the prince. For me it dosent make sense for them to make all of goku achievements thanks to some wish.
I do like how this lizard probably trolled Bardock by making SURE that as soon as both his sons had "thrived" into adulthood they'd face each other and both die
To a Namekian to boot 😂
Raditz literally dies brutally. Why is this a debate? The wish didn't work.
The definition of activity trying to fix something that wasn’t broken.
Personally, I interpreted "grow up healthy and strong" to only apply to their childhoods. You don't really do much 'growing up' after you become an adult, after all. Like the wish would just ensure Goku and Raditz made it to adulthood, but once they're grown, warranty's expired and now all bets are off. Hence them both dying in the Saiyan Saga and Raditz never getting brought back. Still not _great_ but better than the alternative.
Pa
Pcog
Growing up would imply he acts like an adult currently
@@ajax9644 how act like adult look like?
@@ajax9644 He does. Dudes got a job as a Farmer and provides for his family.
We never saw the namekian actually making that wish and i honestly didn't even thought much about Bardocks wish before this video, to me it was just a basic line from a father and even if the wish was made, it might have only affected gokus save escape from planet vegeta. i don't think it was ever intended to mean that Goku only succeeded in his life because of that wish, espacially since the wish of Goku AND radditz and well, we know how Radditz turned out
Pretty sure Monaito did make the wish, it's just the translation is a bit weird. Bardock's wish wasn't for his sons to "survive all and every encounter and no harm comes to them", it's literally just for Goku and Raditz to be well, big strong men (physically btw) in their adulthood.
Agreed
I think wish didn't happen. Monaito wanted to help batdock, he didn't want to grabt him any wish. Also technically it isn't confirmed. And toronbo probably don't have power to grant that big wish to give somone decades long plot armor.
I highly doubt that all of Goku's trials and accomplishments were the result of a wish. 2 things will most likely be explained during the manga run:
1. Monaito didn't make the wish, or it only affected Goku up until he escaped/until he died for the first time.
2. While the wish did ensure they'd have some form of pampering, Goku still being alive, being nearly as strong as a god, and being surrounded by friends and family is all thanks to himself, and that the dragon couldn't have helped him THAT much. Shenron may have held up a torch, but Goku ran with it
@@dark-xh7fs literally the most simple thing that any wish dragon can do
He died from piccolo's attack
He died from the heart virus
Even the cell saga death ig
The wish didn't do shit
He got revived 36478298264929147 times, shut up.
@@holl7w how tf is that part of the wish literally everyone in dragon ball has died and been revived except Mr Satan, the Angels, Zeno and the universes that weren't part of the TOP
suck your mum
it applied to them growing up, those deaths you mentioned, he was already grown up
The way Bardocks wording was phrased and he's"care less" attitude indicates that he didn't actually wish anything but instead made a snarky remark. And it's bold to assume wishing for someone to prosper means wishing them to be invincible, Goku's efforts are his own. The real problem with canon Bardock however is making him closer to his son, the OG Bardock never had a chance to say goodbye to his sons and that gave a lot more impact on his family.
I don't know if I agree with the wish meaning what many outraged fans think it means, even with the direct translation. If that were the case, why did Raditz die and not get resurrected? You can certainly argue it for early Dragon Ball but the following chapter seems to imply that it simply allowed them to safely be off-planet when Frieza destroyed their home, as Vegeta states, and I think that's what we're meant to take as well.
Because it doesn't lol, Bardock's wish i'm pretty sure is for both Goku and Raditz to have a lot of muscles when they grow up. That's literally it, also it doesn't change the fact that Goku has died like 4 times by now.
I don’t know if you can argue it for early Dragon ball tho, saiyan are naturally stronger than earthlings in the first place hence why Goku was simply stronger than basically everyone on Earth as a child
There next chapter literally debunked all the fears people had. It just meant that they survived Frieza blowing up the planet.
The wish is about them being able to safely grow up, so while thinking that it's still in effect it's stupid it's hard not to think about how the wish recontextualizes all of the dangers goku faced in the og dragonball which is what a lot of people (not all) are pissed about
I agree, what i think Bardock actually meant is for Goku and Raditz to, as herms said. Literally have big gains (lol) when they grow up, it doesn't help Goku in any way shape/form in defeating his enemies, Goku was still just a low class Saiyan garbanzo, who had a PL of 10 for Gods sake.
I don't think the wish was ever really in effect. I feel like it was just a line to show Bardock cares about his sons and has no intentions of running away from a fight.
Thank you. This is the kind of calm reaction one needs in this community. This entire fandom is constantly going crazy.
Great thinking!
Finally, someone thinks the same. Until it’s confirmed, this is my headcanon/take on it.
That would be good writing.
We are talking about the DBS manga
@@SnipingIsAGoodJobMate That would be valid criticism, if it was criticism.
I think this is a stretch. A parent asking for their child to grow healthy and well and thrive does not mean goku was destined to beat his opponents. If that were the case he wouldn't have died so many times
Fun fact, an even closer translation to what Bardock said is that he wishes his sons are RAISED to be healthy, etc. The specific wording he used is the verb 育つ which means to “raise a child”.
Doesn’t necessarily mean they make it to adulthood though, as if somebody is raising a child healthily and all that, and (sadly) that child dies in an accident , they were still raised to be healthy.
I just can't get over the fact that CZcamsrs and Reviewers are so hung up on this specific line, when in fact they even address Herms' direct translation of "growing up well". Growing up well has nothing to do with becoming a "Superman like" entity. It literally means that Bardock's wish entailed what any parent would wish for their kids: for said offspring to have a properous life. It still does not define the choices or/and circumstances said children would encounter in their life. Goku is still Goku or Kakarot is still Kakarot. He still worked hard to achieve what he has achieved. It was NOT given to him, no matter how you look at it.
Their unfounded hatred towards Dragonball Minus deludes them into a tunnelvision that "justifies" said hatred in the first place. It a vicious cycle these people are putting themselves in basicallh stating: "I'm right, because I'm right and the proof is that I'm right". It's complete and utter BS.
As much as I like to believe 90% of Dragon Ball fan discourse is shallow power level wankery and "who would win" fights, the 10% that could be considered thoughtful analyzers can _also_ get caught up in their own myopia. Nostalgia is the bane of Dragon Ball, because its creators feared change and rehashed the past for cheap emotional effect, and its fans are hypocritical in wanting change, but abhorring any major attempt the creators make at it.
I agree with you. That's my issue with channels like Saiyan Scholar. Love his knowledge base, but his GT fanboy, and hate of Super permeates his content.
Akira Toriyama is a good world builder and storyteller, however, even he makes mistakes. But we have a lot of zealots who dive into this like it's religious text. It's not. It's a mythological superhero fairytale meets science fiction tale. And if they don't like it, there's always making "what if content" and fan fiction stories that are popular. Arguing about power levels and bad mouthing those who are fans of the franchise as a whole despite apparent flaws is childish, in my opinion. But certain fans can only bitch and complain.
When a story, or story element sucks, it sucks however...
Also that they literally forget about Raditz just like Toriyama did, and as we know, he sure didin't had any affect from the wish, and if he didin't Goku neither by default also whouldn't
Did any of you seriously watched the video? How much do you guys have to turn your brain off in order to enjoy this. The story was good as it was. Didn't even listen to the story. A creator can take their piece to a bad route deal with it. You guys are just consumers
I don’t think either translation ruins anything actually, if he wishes for them to thrive that doesn’t mean Goku was destined to beat every enemy he ever faced, since raditz didn’t do the same. And if he wished for them to grow up strong, then they both did, it still doesn’t imply that Goku was destined to beat everyone he faced, especially when you consider all of the opponents he’s faced and how he didn’t beat Vegeta or Cell. I think you may have just kinda forgot about Raditz.
Yeah, the DB community is always looking for something to complain about.
"forgot about Raditz" to be fair, so did probably toriyama.
Raditz was shown during flashbacks so Raditz is meant to be at the power level he was at when shown and not to be developed, I guess. He is not forgotten; he is no more than just a bad guy who happens to be related to Goku.
Goku also had a heart disease. That's not much of help from a wish.
@@yuries19 I’m honestly disappointed that mark went to the complaining route
R.I.P AKIRA TORIYAMA THE GOD FATHER OF ANIME
The existence of Raditz already disproves this theory
Although I’m really not a fan at all of Bardocks implementation into the main story, especially his Minus interpretation, I don’t see how this ruins Dragon Ball in the slightest.
Bardock wished for both of his sons, Goku AND Raditz, to “thrive” or “grow up healthy and well.” But this idea that all of Goku’s accomplishments are destined for greatness and that he was always going to win has no basis for being true, seeing as Raditz, someone who the wish also should have protected, gets killed by Piccolo and never returns, unlike Goku.
I think at best this could explain how they survive the destruction of Planet Vegeta, and/or how Goku managed to crash right near Grandpa Gohan through cosmic intervention or some mombo jumbo. Maybe this explains how Piccolo missed all of Goku’s vital organs or something.
Really not at all a fan of this story in Super, but I think people are kinda over reacting from the wish thing specifically. I don’t think it’s as big of a deal as people are making it out to be.
@@nellhhhhhhhhhhhhh1044 you shouldn't be overreacting because of a NOT PROVEN rumor in the first place...
@@nellhhhhhhhhhhhhh1044 that rumore is debunked also pretty sure dying and going to hell for like 20 years is growing up strong or thriving
Lol, I just made a similar point to this amd now I see your comment ^^.
Unless Raditz somehow comes back super powerful and amazing, pretty sure this "wish" is a bust.
A possible counter to your claim is that Raditz was killed because Goku intervened giving Piccolo the shot at the kill. In a case like that them "thriving" counters one another because they have counteracting goals. That chance however doesn't fully stop your point depending on how the wish is made, if they make the wish.
That is the thing that will have to be seen though, as we don't really know how the wish will be worded if it gets made.
And we also have to acknowledge Goku and Raditz both died together. It's only because Goku was revived and then revived later again that he's still around
I feel like Bardock's story just changes as much as hoaxes do when reaching one-another. I feel that any time Bardock gets "screentime", either he just changes himself, or his story in some big way. Idk, I could be wrong, feel free to share your thoughts with me.
(I see that there's a debate that sparked in the replies, sorry if I played into it a lil' ;P)
Honestly, I dislike TV special Bardock and Minus Bardocks Story equally. But I think DBS Bardock is striking a solid Balance. He is still clearly shown to be mostly ruthless and selfish but gets a little sentimental After the birth of his second son while seeing a mother with child trying to protect it. So he decides to save two people just this once. He gets some input that later evolves into a suspicion that freezer might kill all saiyans and decides to send Kakarot away. This works way better than some bs future Vision since it makes way more sense and Fits all characters personality involved. And bardocks mentality to just fight for victory and nothing else is also very nice and fitting. This is the only bardock I like so far. Hope he stays that way now
@@lezola8697 I honestly prefer DBS Bardock more than Minus and Z Bardock, while Minus Bardock felt like just a too "kind of a person" and Z Bardock is for me too much of a mere saiyan brute. I like that Bardock is now seeing the mistakes of the Saiyan race, but isn't a purely good guy in a sense, he still does what he has to do, he still has commited genocide on a daily like the other saiyans. People are getting outraged over nothing it seems.
@@shonenlegend8580 Agreed
@@lezola8697 I love your perspective on the different versions and I do agree with you.
@@lezola8697 The og bardock was the best one and had good world building.
Number 1: His design was much better than the dbs one, he had a one of a kind badaz (don't want to get my comment removed for swearing) saiyan armor. His bandana was also really cool and set him apart from goku (it also held a lot of weight and story), but now he looks almost the exact same as goku. Not good.
Number 2: His personality matched the saiyans even more than the dbs bardock. DBS bardock is very sympathetic and cares for goku, a good dad! While the og bardock literally didn't care because he wasn't powerful, and that's the harsh truth of how saiyans are. Really! Everything doesn't have to be love and dovey in this series. It also gave a reason as to why Goku didn't really care about his father. Saiyans are a ruthless warrior race. But when bardock did find out he was the chosen one, the one that would defeat frieza he became proud of him and wanted to save him. Good stuff.
Number 3: He had a good story that was tied with pre existing characters even more. Like the dbs version simply showed him and gine, that's it. But the original story showed him going on a rampage in another planet that had "kanassan" alien race which shows how the saiyans attacked ruthlessly other planets and did some worldbuilding of a new race. The leader of these aliens had the ability to forsee the future and cursed bardock so you actually had a reason for his actions (because he knew frieza was going to kill them). Not just a "i got a bad thought" feeling that bardock had in super. Then you see bardocks entire team get killed by dedoria (which also builds this specific character up more, that's good! We get insight into what friezas right hand men were doing.) and bardock barely survives. Bardock takes a towel with the blood of his best friend and puts it on his forehead, this is some GOOD storytelling. A cool design + carries weight. He tries to convince his race friezas going to blow them up and they think he's a madman so he like a badaz charges into space through tons of frieza soldiers, one of the coolest scenes imo and then gets killed by frieza in a spectactular fashion. Geniunely one of my favourite dragon ball stories that was told in roughly 40 minutes i think.
Number 4: I mentioned this before but this movie had awesome fights and amazing scenes. Don't get why they just ruined all of it.
Overall, this ruined the story in almost every aspect for me especially with how goku is now destined to not die.
It's stuff like this that makes me see modern Dragonball as a totally different thing to original Dragonball.
The only argument anyone ever says is "it's canon".
7:17 “Before I go any deeper in Bardock…”
Excuse me!?🤨
I think he meant the other way around
The question shouldn’t be up to our interpretation of what the wish implies about Goku. What matters is how Toriyama and Toyotaro meant for it to be taken. I’m honestly not convinced the wish was meant to explain Goku being who he was growing up like people are worried about. Even the latest chapter had a line that seemed to imply the wish was fulfilled in Bardock’s sons surviving the destruction of Vegeta. By surviving that they were allowed to grow up, unlike the rest of the Saiyans.
Interesting take, I like that.
Toei won.
This was a very interesting breakdown of the Bardock issue. I admit I first read it and thought oh no that cheapens the story immensely. Then I remembered that Raditz dies almost immediately after he is introduced so maybe we all overreacted.
Likely so. But it just makes Raditz an even sadder case. That's both hilarious and absurd. He's a coward. Never fought an opponent as strong or stronger than himself.
people are really overreacting to the wish
I dont even get how they got to the conclusion that a poopy Shenron would have the Power to stop Raditz (and Piccolos special beam cannon) from killing Goku when in OG Dragonball King Piccolo killed Shenron so easily
I mean he died in a fight that involved his brother who also had the wish backing him up, so it probably cancelled itself during that since any interference wouls contradict itself
@@ExaltedNinja. You mean the wish, as Totally Not Mark points, makes Goku's underdog story completely meaningless all of a sudden. The fans have the right complain things in lore being tampered. How are they overreacting?
Funny enough the wish wasn't even made
I don't think this is that serious, but just Bardock nonchalantly wishing for his sons to live their life as it is and whatever happens then happens.
Edit: In other words he pretty much wished for nothing.
Glad Mark still has the passion to make DBZ videos after that Toei nonsense. Still can't believe they shafted my guy so hard, whoever made those bogus copy right claims deserve a spanking.
That’s the past and leave it there like he wants
Yep let's just hope it doesn't happen again! CZcams seriously needs to put a team of expert fair use mods who manually view every claim. Not an AI bot!!
@@xenodroid his videos aren’t available in Japan anymore so he should be fine
That's just what you gotta do when your entire livelyhood depends on Anime. Without money on the line, any self-respecting person would have walked away from Toei.
Certainly a relief.
I mean... Raditz died, and in the original timeline Goku died because of the heart virus. I think people are getting too heated around nothing, I think the wish, if it was truly wished, only made them survive the Saiyan extinction.
There next chapter literally confirmed this. It just meant that they survived Frieza blowing up the planet.
I’d like to assume the wish only protected them until they were adults. Then the rest is up to them.
Mmhm, the newest chapter already debunked all this weird translation error going on. Bardock's wish was literally just for both Goku and Raditz to have big muscles when they grow up lol, this even confirmed by either Vegeta or Monaito in the newest chapter.
Did you watch the whole video?
Maybe, but still, Raditz really is like Paper Mache. lol
I wouldn’t exactly call dying to a heart virus thriving, I know he survived in the main timeline, but we have to assume that the same wish was made in the Future timeline
"I wish my sons grew up healthy and well"
Well son 1 is dead in hell and son 2 almost died but was saved by a kid from the future. I doubt that wish did anything.
I think that, even if the wish really did happen, Raditz' fate pretty well undoes most arguments in this video. He did wish for both of his sons to thrive and Raditz gets murdered before Goku achieves many of his notable feats. I think this wish mostly just made sure they didn't get offed by Frieza when he blew up the planet more than anything else.
However, let's not forget that shonen anime love to push the "hard work and determination to achieve your goals" narrative while also giving their main characters some special thing that makes them uniquely able to do whatever it is they were wanting to do. So I wouldn't honestly be surprised if it is as Mark says, though I think (for the larger fandom as well) that it's mostly a "oh this thing isn't like my nostalgia, waa waa" than anything else.
If you want to speak in technicalities both Goku AND Raditz died, however since death isn't permanent because space balls, the wish could still be valid. Maybe Raditz came back and is just alive somewhere. Maybe toriyama just likes ruining people's perception of his characters. It's all speculation anyway
@@zombehmaster maybe the only way they could die was together? I think though after that everything is all good though. Wish negated?
People also seem to have forgotten that dragon balls' power is tied directly to the power of the one who created them. If you can't look at the situation and say "if Monaito was there, nothing bad could happen", then the wish wouldn't work to protect from that situation.
Not really, despite the odds Goku and Raditz managed to survive everything thrown at them until they met each other. You could say their divine protection canceled by pitting them against each other to the death.
Its pretty surprising how you don’t even have the capacity to comprehend a simple sentence lol.
So, am I the only one who thinks the fandom is blowing this way out of proportion? I don’t see how this wish cheapens the struggles Goku experienced, even if his survival against certain foes was due to in part to it. He still experienced those physical and emotional struggles. It's the question of fate and freedom: if one’s life is predetermined, do the choices in one’s life actually exist? I believe Goku and Raditz were perhaps destined to be “strong guys” but they still had to put the work into becoming them, and it didn’t lessen the struggles they endured.
In my personal theory, the direct result of the wish was Goku coming under the care of Grandpa Gohan, and Raditz under the leadership of Vegeta and Nappa.
Dragon Ball fans blowing things out of proportion is nothing new. Remember how much shit the Moro arc got while it was ongoing? But then once it ended and we had the whole picture everyone started praising it as the best arc of Super
I thought retconning goku to be a space alien already cheapened dragon ball. If anything this is more inline with the original series.
@@unknownsword9042 that’s a hot take if ever I heard one.
The Dragon Ball fandom are gatekeeping
@tamama in total honesty I’m more familiar with Dragon Ball than Z or Super, so please don’t please don’t make assumptions. Let’s look at some OG Dragon Ball moments and see if Bardock's wish is detrimental to their impact.
1) Goku's miraculous survival against Tao Pai Pai; Goku survives the encounter by pure chance, and no greater meaning is ever given to the fact that the Dragon Ball literally saved Goku's life.
2) Goku's miraculous survival against King Piccolo; again Son Goku only survives due to a stroke of luck that holds no greater purpose in the overarching narrative when his heart suddenly restarts after Piccolo declares Goku dead.
3) In regards to my own personal theory, Goku's landing at Mt. Paozu is still an instance of luck considering how he could have landed in any random spot on any random planet.
These moments had no other significance other than to forward the plot, and now can be looked at in new light due to this wish. As far as I’m concerned the wish allowed them to survive adolescence, but it had no part in determining their accomplishments. If it had, wouldn’t Raditz be as powerful and successful Goku?
I wonder what are the implications for the true dragon ball timeline, wherein goku dies of a heart disease during the cell arc 🤔
If the wish did come true, Then wouldn't Raditz still be alive since Bardock asked that BOTH of his sons grow up well? And since Raditz Is..... Well.. Dead, wouldn't he still be around if Bardock's wish came true?
The latest chapter has a panel where they explain that the wish was just the ensure Goku and Raditz survived the destruction of Vegeta, while pretty vague and loose, this is the mangaka telling us directly that this was their intent behind the wish.
vegeta does mention that the wish helps them survive the explosion... the issues is that it "could" be perceived as extending beyond that since the wish was worded extremely vague. coping, but hope that the japanese translation is more accurate or that it turns out monaito didn't even make the wish or something... even though he likely did since he said nothing against what vegeta said in that panel when he was right next to him
I have to say that the wish was "i wish that my son grown healthy", from my point of view that only applies to general health but not to every escenario. I mean, he was a healthy and vigorous child, but he also went involved in fights agains deadly foes at his own risk. The wish may guarantee is natural health but not his safety in a fight to death against the demon King. So even a healthy strong kid/man can die if he tries to stop a 16 wheel truck with his bare hands. Fornme are two unrelated concepts.
It could also mean that the wish stopped working when Goku cracked his head and survived with just minor brain damage. Like, the power of wish ran its course.
I doubt it’s natural health, considering his son contracted a fatal heart virus
@@skillissue6232 That only happened after he was grown so would no longer factor into the wish.
@@barethor5869 why?
@@barethor5869 again, I doubt it, because the nature of bardocks wish was that “My sons END UP thriving”
Bardock: I'd wish that my sons end up thriving
Raditz: So that was a fucking lie.
You remember when Piccolo nailed a mouth cannon on Goku and he just so happen to miss all his vital organs. Not even Piccolo could believe it.
I think a lot of the character potential mentioned at 2:25 was _already_ hampered from the very beginning. It was quickly established that the reason Goku was different from others of his race (or at least the catalyst) was NOT primarily through nurturing, but _by literally being dropped on his head as a child._
Thank you! Goku isn't good because his parents are slightly nicer than other saiyans (don't forget Bardock helped genocide the planet before he saw the kid), but because he literally went through a factory reset and was then raised by a good person.
Holy shit someone that actually remembers this part of the story
Very true.
Exactly!! I thought it was weird how mark kinda conveniently forgot to mention that little factoid while trying to hype goku up as a saiyan who was different from the others because of "nurturing", and not because of a massive blow to the head that instantly changed his personality from then on to be less savage and bloodthirsty. No no no, it was just the nurturing and nothing else. I mean, it's not like goku would have most likely turned out like any other saiyan we've seen if that didn't happen or anything. Seriously, I'm not even a huge dragon ball fan and even I know about that. How does this so called "dragon-tuber" not mention that here? He either completely forgot about it or he decided to omit that detail for the sake of convenience.
@@daltonwhimpey9681 another thing mark got completely wrong
he said in the original nobody expected anything from goku or cared for him at all
Yet bardock literally sees goku becoming powerful enough to fight the strongest person in the universe
In dbs there wasn’t any seeing the future bs to know how strong goku would be. He had no idea, yet still cared for him because he learned to appreciate life.
Not only does this make goku a true underdog, but dbs bardock a much better character.
In the Spanish translation, Bardock did say that he wished for his sons to grow healthy.
That being said, growing healthy and strong is barely a step since, you know, Raditz is still a pushover for the other Saiyans.
Either Monaito didn't grant Bardock's wish, or the wish was just a slight boost that served as just a big fertilizer for Goku's growth and boosted the result of his trainings without erasing the value of said trainings.
steroids' literally devalue training its an artificial boost for something he couldn't achieve on his own. your analogy doesn't work because even if true it means goku wouldn't have gotten here on his own
I would say this statement isnt really consistent with Raditz losing and dieing with even Goku dieing either way
Here’s how I’m seeing it. We should trust the new blood taking the reins more often because they actually can lead us to some damn interesting places, but if you just give Toriyama the wheel in the middle of the road somewhere, like with the case of how Bardock and Jiren have turned out in the end, will result in a crash and burn. ☹️😩😔
Okay, first of all I failed to see why people are complaining about his parents being "special". They were still low-class warriors and the only difference between them and the average Saiyan was that they were not completely evil. Something which I would like to remind everyone is not completely unheard of.
As for Bardock's wish, hasn't anybody stopped and thought that maybe that wish is why his space pod landed in a place Gohan would be able to find him? It's really possible that was how the wish manifested itself.
For the first part. This was kinda unheard of before because we knew none kind sayen beside Goku at first. And even him that was because he lost all his sayens memories so that made a intersting Nature vs Nurture theme ( even if I dont think that this was the plan ) and with sayen like Vegeta and Table we saw that Sayen werent bad people just their culture was too barbarian ( If I may say )
But by changiing Bardock and making him already a nice guy ( and same for Ginue). Goku isnt special anymore of course he's a nice guy his parent were great and his grand father too ( We can ask why Raditz was a asshole but i guess we dont care lmao )
Anyway i can see why people were mad at this; especialy now because i'm currently watching the show smallvile were they change jor-el story making that Clark was sent to conquer but refuse his mission cause of how he was raise on earth. And that alone made that way more interesting that the OG Jor-el story who sent clark to be a hero and bring hope. So yes I can see why db who alrealdy had the smallville formula chose to go backward ( But that my opinion )
"the only difference between them and the average Saiyan was that they were not completely evil. "
Originally, Goku was sent to Earth because his race (and parents) considered him trash. And the dramatic irony is that it was that misjudgment that caused him to become a hard-working fighter who ended up besting even the strongest of the Saiyan elite (Vegeta).
Now, Goku was sent to Earth because his parents just loved him SO MUCH! He was well taken care of and thrived because of that. Honestly, the wish is just the cherry on top. Bardock being a good Saiyan who cares about his weak son is enough to ruin that brilliant part of Goku's character.
@@yoishikakatshihe6402 Why does everyone see bardock trying to save 1 family after he murdered the rest of their race as him being a "good guy"? Thats like saying vegeta became good after saving gohan from frieza. Also goku's good hearted nature came from him cracking his skull on the bottem of a cliff he would have been a normal concerning saiyan had it not been for that. Also you said yourself that raditz was still a bad guy even though he had way more time with gine then goku ever did so that logic makes even less sense
@@devilskind92 Either you would have to give Goku a horrid inferiority complex and a Goku suicide scene to match up with the first part, or the second part makes sense.
I interpret it differently. Every single wish made on any of the dragons has had immediate effects and only had consequences felt soon after. So I don’t see it as the wish guaranteeing Goku would succeed at everything (especially cuz we see him fail multiple times) but as being the reason Bardock felt the need to send Goku to Earth in the first place. At worst, the wish is the reason Goku was raised in the positive way that he was
Exactly 😂 was laughing my ass off reading that part.
I feel the same way. I just finished watching this video and now I understand why it’s so divisive. This doesn’t ruin DB just like the Sequel Trilogy hasn’t ruined Star Wars. Smh…
@Iceman I suggest you read again. I specifically say that it DOESN’T ruin DBS.
he says sons plural, so would it affect raditz?
@@DarkNinja-bf6hk maybe the wish got him off planet with Vegeta and Nappa
If the people responsible for the Bardock movie were given the responsibility of writing DBZ, the anime would've been an all-time great even without the nostalgia factor.
From the garanuteed survival transaction, It's also possible to get a panel where the dragon cannot grant the wish because he doesn't have the power (he fought A LOT) so instead the wish is changed to surviving planet Vegeta.
So this is the first time I have heard the direct translation, while I do have issues with new Bardock, I don't mind new Bardock. So having heard this I'm still struggling to see how "strong and healthy" causes as many issues as are being presented. Both of those things do not mean a person will be the strongest, nor does it mean they will always win, it doesn’t mean they will be good individuals or bad individuals, it doesn't mean they won't suffer. Equally when you say grow up where do you draw the line? Do we mean physically or mentally? It would be very easy to argue Goku has never grown up, equally if you go for the physical aspect, it means everything before the very end of Dragonball just had a "Goku must survive" clause. Not a Goku must win clause.
I certainly see that it causes a lot of issues and removes value, but it feels insanely blown out of proportion to me, especially when I think about what I would consider strong and healthy (also does it mean what Bardock means by strong and healthy, or the wish maker, or the dragon itself?). I would not consider what happened to Raditz to be healthy, equally there are many mental aspects that have happened to the characters that I wouldn't consider healthy, so I'd very much say to anyone that’s going to dig into this, you've got a fun time ahead of you, breaking down every event to try and find which interpretation of such a generic wish was taken. Especially when you consider it was made with zero belief that the wish was going to made.
Edit: Just cleaned up some spellings
Exactly dude, the fact raditz died alone just breaks down the argument anyone complaining had
I don't know I think it's kinda sweet. The father's wish having been the thing that had protected him since he was born is beautiful honestly. That doesn't take away from goku in the slightest. He still chose to fight for the good. He still struggled through the pain. He still fought thinking he might die (he even did at some point). His protection didn't protect those he loved from danger. Why is it so important for his strength to be his own? At the end of the day we're born with genes that are randomly dealt out to each of us. What's the difference between goku winning from a randomly dealt gene or a randomly dealt wish? At the end of the day it isn't about the winning or the losing. It's about the struggling to do what's right even when failure is very possible (or at the very least when you think it's very possible). At least now goku has someone to thank for his strength rather than the random fluxes of the universe.
came to say exactly this
@@mikemikel1629 well it's important for his strength to be his own because the series is literally about hard work and friendship, which is why he won most of his fights (not some randomly dealt gene). But, a wish for him to grow up to be "big and strong" doesn't effect his ability to win, just ensure that he'll make it to adulthood. Also, he already had several people to thank for his strength: his friends and mentors.
@@aikon5557 Raditz didnt die alone, Goku died there too, he was just revived. So if there is a negative that comes with the positive with these wishes like Granolah, they grew up strong and healthy but would die together
Bardock should've never been important beyond being Goku's dad. He had one cool, isolated story. That should've been it. Nothing more was required. He doesn't need to be a super saiyan or directly influence Goku's journey or personality.
The fact that he and his wife were good-hearted people is a slap in the face of the fans. So Goku's head accident doesn't matter? Gohan's teachings doesn't matter? He was destined to be good because his parents were good people. All that sense of irony that came from the OG Bardock special is completely gone now.
@@EvilPumpkin his parents weren't good people tho, Bardock saved one family and his son, how does that make him a good person? He literally still murdered countless species. Literally nothing you've said is affected by Bardock being a "good person" or making his wish, Gohan still found and raised Goku, Goku was still aggressive and rowdy and Goku hitting that rock repressed that. So nothing was retconned or changed outside of Bardock being a slightly nicer guy than he was on the TV special.🤦♂️
@@EvilPumpkin i hate when people says “goku was destined to be a good person” bro raditz is not good , and yet was a son of bardock and gine , and having “””good””” fathers doesn’t means you will be a good person , its just a dumb thing to assume
@@EvilPumpkin Ok so in the concept of a Saiyan, Bardock and Gine may not been as ferocious as other Saiyans. Especially Gine, and it's not too far fetched to consider that some Saiyans were a little bit more passive. Think of all other occupations that would have had to be filled to keep a planet going. But if Goku grew up to be a brutal Saiyan like Vegeta in his youth, then all the better in their eyes. If you go back to DB Goku was nasty with Grandpa Gohan, until he hit his head. The Barddock special is very average too and was ass canon as the movies were
@@EvilPumpkin yep, toriyama literally made goku of super a true shonen character ALL WAS GIVEN ON A PLATE, LIKE NARUTO
If you consider the heart virus he gets in the alternate timeline, than Bardock's wish must ware off at some point. Who's to say it didn't ware off after they both survived Planet Vegeta's destruction? They were definitely thriving compared to other saiyans
R.I.P. to the og creator
When bardock wishes for his sons to be "alive and well" I feel like that's a slap in the face to raditz, who just stays dead. Like bardocks wish only favors goku, it's almost like an unstoppable force meets an immovable object at that point in time, it should have just canceled each other out, but no only goku comes out on top. Which is sad because my favorite dbz fanfic (what if raditz turned good) exists and it shows what could've been if raditz hadn't died, he could've been a great addition to the cast. It's an upsetting waste of potential.
That’s a great fanfic
Well technically Raditz was “alive and well” for majority of his life until he met Goku.
They'll probably just resurrect Raditz at the end of this arc, and he'll go off and room with Yamucha while working part time at a bakery to support himself.
@@MC-up7rl idk he would probably get an audition to star as sonic the hedgehog
No it is for both of his sons plus we don’t know if the wish went off
I mean, Raditz technically grew up to be a "big and strong man" too. But then he died with Goku. Goku however was the only one of the two who actually thrived because of who he was raised to be and the friends he made. (Especially since those friends raised him back from the dead with the Dragonballs, while Vegeta and Nappa only sought the Dragonballs for their own purposes.)
He fell on his head thats why he wasnt evil anymore
at first i despised this scene but now watching this vid and also reading some comments of people who understand Japanese well, i think its safe to say the wish wasnt a direct 100% survivability spell for goku and raditz, but more of a "blessing" to help them achieve it, but if push were come to shove things could become bad. and they did, raditz and goku both die, goku multiple times in fact. but im still not a fan of this wish, however now its not as bad as i originally thought it was.
Both of Bardock's sons died, at the same time even, and the second son died a second time, so I don't think you have much a point in this 15 minute waste of time.
Idk if this is me just undermining it, however looking at this culturally, in Asia (speaking as someone who grew up there and is East Asian) this is how we talk, especially those who are parents. I don’t think it’s more than just a father hoping his children do well, but in the west everyone is in search of nuance and a deeper meaning when Asian-media utilizes characters themselves as the symbols not what is actually said.
East Asia is not a country. People in East Asia are not the same. Stop talking like East Asia is monolithic, it makes you look dumb.
People just want something to complain about bruh
One big thing though, is that both goku and raditz end up dying, meaning the wish could have been fulfilled, meaning any accomplishments achieved by goku are off of his own back, and not due to a wish. At least that's my take.
There next chapter literally debunked all the fears people had. It just meant that they survived Frieza blowing up the planet.
We can certainly be sure that the Z and Super part (Saiyan to Current Granola arc) of Dragon Ball, Goku didn't have any destiny fulfilling role. Atleast that we can be certain of.
@@ayushdeshmukh284 Yep, Mark made this video before the chapter came out lol.
@@bigenson18 unless you count defeating frieza, although he didn't kill him. But that could be seen as "destiny" in both iterations of the bardock story
Dragon gets wish from Bardock: "Well shit what is his idea of growing up well? Ok, will split the difference, one kid gets to be Super Saiyan and the other gets long gorgeous hair. that should be good."
Dragon Ball Dissection is one of my favorite CZcams series of all time, it was so special to see you mention it lol.
I mean “growing up healthy” doesn’t mean “give him absolute success no matter what”. Goku and Raditz could have grown up physically fit thanks to the wish, but all of their accomplishments and choices can still be their own.
And they end up assisting in each others death XD
Thats why im saying, idk why people think it means for him to be all powerful, he just wished for them to be heatlthy
That make the wish and the results, as Totally Not Mark puts it, any less cringe.
@@Kartell_111 Why did Raditz and Goku got each other? The wish does not make any sense. It cheapens the story of Dragon Ball as it makes all of Goku's victories in fights unearned. The writers are making Goku too much like Superman.
Ok, I like most of your takes, but I think the reaction to the wish has been WAY overkill. I believe the Herms phrasing makes it MORE apparent that it was a nothing wish. Hell I'd say "I wish my sons grow up to be strong men" was fulfilled by Bardock's "bad feeling," and Raditz getting sent with Vegeta and Nappa on their off planet mission. CLEARLY it wasn't some magical protection because Raditz dies, and frankly wasn't even that strong by Sayian standards. If the wish had only applied to Goku there may be a case, but the fact that he and Raditz were weak by Sayian standards by the start of the Sayian Saga (where the wish must have worn off my if we go by TNM's standards) completly undercuts the argument that this retroactively lessens anything. The notion that this revelation "undoes" Dragon Ball any more than the revelation that Goku being a Sayian undid any achievements that had been ascribed to weird monkey human before DBZ is ludicrous. For the record, I never really liked Minus, I think Broly handles it better, but "The Father of Goku" is the best version. But I think if we take Minus as a given, there is nothing fundamentally different that the wish adds. Its literally the most Sayain thing imaginable to say "I want my boys to be strong dudes"
3:50 coming out of the guy who drew the human extinction attack, cell absorbing alive, frieza and the dark backstory of the saiyans.
He did say sons and Raditz still died
If turning Goku's character from a lovable but somewhat naive person to an irreversibly dangerous sociopath didn't ruin the DB series, this won't either
Trick question, they're both bad things
I think the wish just made it so that the two of them survived planet vegetas annihilation. Which would explain why the two characters have died, and why Bardock just had a random premonition that he needed to get goku off the planet.
This take seems easy enough to accept. I’m not sure why it’s even a discussion.
Facts
But bardock comes to the conclusion during his fight with gas. Gas and elec drop hints of frieza blowing up the planet, then he connected all the dots once the Saiyans got called back
@@leultrainstinct406 forgot about that part
The character that ruined dragon ball: Toriyama
Haha so true
This is just another example of me staying with the OG 90s!
People misinterpreted his wish he wish his sons to thrive aka grow up strong and when you grow up it usually means u turn into an adult. I personally don't think he ruined the arc honestly gas and granola are ass because they wished for there power ups and I feel like that's a pretty shitty way to make them threatening
turns out there's this new dragon that only needs 2 dragonballs to make a wish and the balls dont turn to stone after the wish is made and it has the power to grant any wish no matter how powerful. it was suuuuch a lazy plot device to power them up and attempt to make them relevant
Raditz lived as a slave and was bullied for being weak, what did he get from the wish?
@@andyrobin7196 not really it gave us more information about the dragon balls and that they can be in different sizes and numbers depending on what planet your on
@@drxpgodxx487 it's dumb and lazy and feels really contrived. this tiny dragon that only needs 2 balls to grant a wish should only be able to grant weak wishes. its been firmly established that dragons cant grant wishes that exceed their own power, the earth dragon wasnt able to destroy season 1 vegeta and nappa but this dragon somehow has enough power to make anyone more powerful than jiren? and they dont even turn to stone so you can just use them over and over? this dragon is apparently as powerful as the super dragon from the universal tournament arc.
*their
There's a lot that ruined dragon ball, mostly Akira being his own worst enemy, so I'm curious to see how Bardock did it.
Keeping continuity become more and more difficult as a series goes on. As a writer it gets hard to write new twists and revelations especially with a series as long running as Dragonball.
There are lot of examples where Toriyama prefers to spin things in an underwhelming or lighthearted light, which is ok. At the end of the day I love him because the old stories still exist like original bardock, and he also invented Vegeta.
Normally Mark makes some good points, but I feel like he missed a bit with this one.
If we go with his reasoning, and say Goku succeeded because of the dragon balls and Bardocks wish, surely the effect should have been placed upon Raditz aswell? Raditz died at the start of DBZ. He didn’t become anywhere near as strong as Goku, and not only that: he also died, with Goku, at the same time. They were both young asf at the time compared to human standards let alone Saiyan ones. If bardocks wish really had worked it would’ve been trash. Also, considering it came from dragon balls far superior to earth’s (as it made two of the strongest beings in the universe with a wish) I’m sure that’s not the case. So, Marks reasoning doesn’t really make sense to me.
Also, if the original translation is “I want my sons to grow up and be well” or “grow up to be strong and healthy,” that doesn’t mean: I want Goku to become a universe beater who takes out a tyrannical lizard who transforms five times and beats him. That just means he wished the best for his sons. It’s a bit of an extreme take to negate all of Goku accomplishments through the entire series and narrow it down to one sentence in a panel. Also, let’s not forget Goku has a heart disease which in fact Kills him in the original timeline of the Android Saga, so yeh he didn’t live a long ass live then, he got killed by hisself. For the second time. Then he dies again in the cell saga for a third time. This guy doesn’t seem to be living long to me.
Finally, even if we go with the VIZ translation of Bardock wishing his sons to be “thriving,” that could allude to so many things but fighting. Granted, he is thriving in life, but how many times has my bro died, and/or gotten his ass whooped fighting multiple people, multiple times. And again, let’s not forget, Raditz didn’t thrive in his short ass life. Cool he took over a few planets, but he was a lower-class saiyan who travelled with a Mid-class and the prince, being the weakest there by far, having a power level of 1500 or smthn, and Nappas and Vegetas being in the 4000s and 9000’s. If u ask me my man was bottom of the food chain of his three peers, saw his whole family die (which technically doesn’t affect him living but still), and died from a special beam cannon by piccolo with his little brother restraining him. Not very thriving to me.
most of the points here are after they are already adults where the wish doesn't have an effect
He missed a whole dimension of humanity here
Well i think that Raditz didnt survive because he was fighting
goku who also had the wish and thats the reason both of them died in that arc
You've missed the entire point, the wish cancelled out , because both Raditz and Goku fought eachother. All that Goku went through in Og DB now becomes redundant, because it was supposed to happen. Let’s use our brains here, for you thrive you have to he alive for that to happen. You're just talking about Z and not the first portion of the story. Which alot of fans do to defend this hiccup in the writing. If you haven't watched Og DB, give it a watch and you'll realise, this was a mistake on Toriyama's part.
also i don't think Toronbo? is more powerful than Shenron or Porunga. as Toronbo needs something in exchange to grant the two wishes we have seen it grant. what we don't know is if Toronbo needs the exchange for all wishes they grant or just for the wishes outside their power.
So…admittedly I haven’t read any of the manga, so there could be something that I’m missing, but it doesn’t seem like the wish ever came true to me. Bardock’s wish was for both of his sons, right? If his wish was for both sons then why didn’t Raditz achieve anything like Goku did? Shouldn’t the wish have lead to him achieving some remarkable feats as well?
No no you are correct, people are forgetting about raditz
Nor does he point out that a few panels after this the namekian isnt keen on Bardocks wish, as basic as it is. So there's as much possibility it was never asked for anyway. But growing up strong and healthy is the most baseline wish of any parent, doesnt mean the kid is going to become some legend
Yeah, either TNM is trying to clickbait/farm from cheap drama is is trying to built a rationale on why he can break off of dragonball. The entire clarification of a better translator does not imply pretty much anything of what TNM said and thus the rest of the video is null.
I'm honestly kinda disappointed in TNM since a lot of his recent Dragonball takes are... weird interpretations, to put it very nicely.
@@CarmsCelestia I don’t know if I would quite jump to that conclusion. Like I said, I haven’t read any of the manga, and that includes DB Minus. From the way Mark talked about it, it seems like DB Minus implied/stated in some way that Goku was a “chosen one” type of character. If that is the case, then he’s not wrong to be upset with Minus as it changes what we knew about Goku and ironically makes him less special for it. I just wanted to point out that the discourse around the wish seemed weird since there was that obvious part about both sons being included in the wish.
@@chrisf7730 still wouldn't make sense because goku later on gets a heart virus.
What about Raditz? He's also a Bardock's kid, is he now also a chosen one?
Weird because in an alternate timeline, Future Trunk's timeline, Goku is pretty much dead and everything leading up to that point should have all remained the same. Meaning Bardock should have made the same wish yet Goku still died. Also what of Raditz? That makes even less sense since he is part of that wish and never truly "thrived" ending with a not so good death.
I just don't see it...
so what if the wish would make sure goku grew up to be an adult? Did he still not make the choice to do what's right and fight for his friends?
Did he not choose to follow his grandpa's teachings? and Roshi?
This doesn't change goku at all.
It kinda of does take away from Goku’s uniqueness. If you think about it if it wasn’t for the wish, Goku would die if he kept his Saiyan nature.
He won’t be able to conquer Earth and would of die bc of it…. Unless you believe Goku inherit his kind nature from Bardock/Gine.
However way you put it, it technically devalue Goku’s character for me IMO.
@@shaquillesommerville4060 not at all. The way his character developed has nothing to do with the wish. He can grow big and strong and not become the person he is. He could just be evil and/or choose to not get involved, and he would become a strong adult either way.
Goku is the way he is because he choose to be, from the way he was raised.
And "however you say it, it won't change my opinion" is not the strong argument you might think it is. Just means you made your mind about it and don't care about what other people say, because your opinion will not change. Which is a pretty bad mindset.
@@alicepbg2042 Not really. He’s not going be capable of conquering Earth if there’s numerous amount of people stronger than him.
He would have to build these relationships in order to get stronger. He doesn’t have the luxury that Radtiz have in which the planet he conquer have weaker life form than himself. Hence why Radtiz believe so much in his power against Piccolo and Goku.
Without his nature being change then there’s no way this wish can work for Goku. It would have to retroactively change his nature bc of it
@@shaquillesommerville4060 Who said he has to conquer earth? not really important unless you wanna say the wish literally changed his personality.
he would not. he was naturally strong. he could just go around fighting people for no reason and he would get stronger that way.
I disagree. I think his nature changing after bonking his head just created a diferent option for him to choose. he still had to choose to be a good guy and do what he did. his life choices were his. if you wanna believe the wish affected his personality in order to create a future in which he would grow as the person we see today... sorry. I don't believe those dragon balls are powerful enough to do such a thing. they literally sacrifice things to give you your wish.
@@alicepbg2042 That was the original intention (as stated by Radtiz) then Bardock and Gine just sent Bardock off but as stated by Roshi and from Grandpa Gohan that Goku was still having like a malicious nature and was hard to control so that original intent doesn’t seem to change at all.
Also, I disagree. As stated by Paragus, Broly who has more potential than Goku didn’t get that much stronger from fighting bugs that are stronger than regular humans. So to me, it won’t really help him get stronger at all.
He still would die even if attempting to conquer Planet Earth.
I don’t really think the head injury gave him any options. All it did was make Goku an empty book. And Grandpa Gohan’s influenced help him unto what he is now.
Bardock : "i wish for my sons to thrive."
Radditz : "WHAT THE FUCK, I DIDNT THRIVE"
Dude I was thinking the exact same thing when reading that chapter LOL
Bro it’s completely common for a parent to wish for that. I don’t know about other part of the world but for me, who live in south east Asia, people in my country say that to their son or grandson on every special event such as Birthdays, Religious related days, and many more. Actually when you come to monk, they will wish you that too. In this case, Bardock doesn’t even know what Monaito is up to so he just said that, the common wish every parent would wish for their child.
Consider Raditz though.
Since Bardock did use "sons" in his wish, that would mean that if the wish did go through, it should apply to Raditz as well.
Now, I don't know about you, but being considered weak by your comrades, having to serve and work under your enemy, being humiliated by a child, and being killed by people who are significantly weaker than you, one of which being your own brother...doesn't really seem like "thriving" to me. Even the Japanese translation wouldn't apply, since he died very young, and was also considered weak relative to other saiyans.
He did die young but he was still an adult , so you could consider him fully grown.
Well Raditz didn't know about Frieza being responsible for all of that
And for a saiyan a life of conflict is thriving, I'd say it goes for raditz.