Do You REALLY Need Lens Filters? Variable ND Tests
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- čas přidán 11. 09. 2019
- Variable ND filters are in every pro video kit, let's test how important they are
The PolarPro Variable ND Filter - Peter Mckinnon Edition bit.ly/VNDMckinnon
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Great job Tyler! Something you didn't touch on though was that when you're filming in doors you should be aware of the flicker that your lights produce. Typically in the US your lights will flicker 120 times a second because of your power running at 60Hz, this is noticeable any time you're not shooting at a shutter speed that's a multiple of 1/60. In the UK (that's me) and other places in Europe we typically shoot at shutter speeds in multiples of 1/50 since our lights run at 50Hz. This matches the speed of the lights flickering and so it won't be picked up by your camera. However another point is a lot of LED lights don't get this flickering until really really high shutter speeds but it varies on the light. Just thought I should add this so people don't start shooting really random shutter speeds and get weird flickering.
That’s definitely something I could have gone into, it wasn’t on my mind because we were in nature but it really drives me crazy around Christmas. The new LED bulbs are so brutal
Just to explain the stuttering look on the indoor footage with faster shutter speeds for those who might be curious. If you're shooting 60fps and 1/120s, the time between exposures is much less than if you're shooting 60fps and 1/2000s. So with the faster shutter speed, there's an exposure, and then a big blackout time where the object moves through the frame, and then another exposure. So it is in effect jumping from exposure to exposure, as opposed to the longer shutter speeds which provides motion blur and mesh the movement together more seamlessly. Thats why the closer objects appear to stutter and jump more than the further objects: they cover more ground in the frame with every exposure.
Great video Tyler, it had a good playfulness to it that I enjoyed. A little more casual and fun - grear work for sure.
Great job done at the testing and knowing the difference it makes on wider shots or close up and it really shows to viewer like me and understand how much impact it makes. And especially on handheld. Couldn’t thanks you enough for this! Thanks!
Really enjoyed that Tyler. Something almost nobody ever talks about on this topic is when there's actually some utility to having sharper frames with higher shutter speeds other than the look. For instance, you generally get cleaner, more accurate tracking information when applying stabilization in post to footage that was shot at a higher shutter speed... so if I'm trying to make moving gimbal shots look as smooth as a drone (with a little added stabilization applied in post), it's actually helpful.
Yes absolutely, I should have talked about that! I don’t use it for that myself, but I know it’s important in VFX, and then they’ll often add the motion blur back with after effects.
Finally, someone who explains shutter speed for video extremely well and concise with clear sample and difference.. Great video Tyler..
Maybe a video on frames per sec next?
Alright *FINE* I'll get an ND filter stop yelling at me :)
Jesse you’re videos are perfect just the way they are ☺️
But a little too sharp 😬
classic jesse
I'm sure Peter would hook you up too dude! Get you that mate's rate cost of Free-Ninety-Free haha
Great video! Definitely helps understand the importance of shutter speed 😄
The color grading on this video is so clean!! The cleanest I’ve ever seen damn 🔥
Great video Tyler! One question I had, though, was what would happen if your shutter speed is the same as the framerate? I shoot a lot at 60 fps, but in low light i sometimes can't double the framerate in the shuttle speed, so I usually end up filming at 60 fps / 1/60.
Could you do a video on how you color grade your videos? your videos look amazing, just amazing.
Yup! Although I feel like I’m always learning, so much of it is looking at references (see recent video) and clean lighting
@@stalman did you use magic looks? or lumetri?
Very informative video Tyler, I think I've taken people's word for the 180 degree rule without really questioning it. I've also experienced the X moire pattern when I turn the variable ND (mine is Tiffen) outside of the marked stops.
I love the tone of your talking head shots here
Great content dude, but bruuuuh how great is the landscape where you film. I‘m super stoked...
Awesome video as always 👌🏼
I honestly had no idea about the 2x your FPS. Thank you!
Man this video is dope and crispy AF
This video is amazing, anyone into videography it’s just getting into film making needs to watch this. I have been constantly using a variable ND on my iPhone when shooting video but it’s totally true that depending on the frame of video, what is moving, have a faster shutter speed won’t ruin the shot .. now I need to run more of my own tests lol. Thanks Tyler!
I notice it on my iPhone all the time and have thought about putting a filter on it, which one do you use?
Tyler Stalman I’ve been using the Gobe 62mm variable ND. I’d recommend it, even on a proper bright day I always find its more than enough, and it’s less than £50/$50. Paired with Filmic pro .. it has worked wonders
Funny that you felt like you "needed convinced." I was kinda the opposite, I never took that into account when I started, but then I got some complaints about my motion looking like lots of still frames/jittery, and that's what sent me down the rabbit hole xD
Interesting, I see vloggers do it so often that I just assume average viewers don’t realize what’s happening
The quality of production improves massively in this video.
Very helpful, thank you.
Great info. Thanks for this. subscribed
In my tests doubling works fine, but like you said, up to a point. I stop at 1/125th even if I am shooting at 120fps, going to 1/250th doesn't seem to help or look that different from 1/125th.
That’s interesting to hear Dave, I should come some 120fps footage at different speeds. I wish these cameras would all let us set the shutter angle instead
Interesting ! Gonna try some slow mo 😉
ive always used variable ND on DSLR and fixed on Drone. i only ever follow the rule to double the shutter speed against the frame rate. gives perfect video everytime
Nice overview. 👍
That outro is niiiice
I'm using two ND filters, 4 and 6 stops, (mostly 4 stops), and if I need i just crank up shutter speed to 1/60, 1/80 or 1/100 and actually there is no noticeable differences, especially if i recording not huge movement, if so I just put 6 stops with just small tweaks. Thank you for video
The colors in this video look amazing. Super crispy! Do you have any grading tutorials?
Ill make one some day!
Good video!
For the longest time I was in the "it doesn't matter" camp and I shot at 1/14000 and it was all fine, but recently I started using my NDs more and more and I do notice that it looks "better". These days I just set my GH5 to 180deg and most of the time it stays on it but even then if there's something cool happening and I didn't bring the ND, I won't hesitate to crank it up
I love when cameras have 180 option, so much more practical
@@stalman exactly, it's so handy when switching framerates because you don't even have to think about adjusting your shutter too.
8:41 I actually prefer the color with the ND filter at 2 stop, the image look less flat, just me ?
This is an EXCELLENT video. Def gonna share with people who need an explainer about the what and what’s of NDs.
Also nice hiding of the backlight dying. I hate it when my rim light dies haha
You win the prize for noticing! 😂 yeah I was so annoyed, I replaced it with a different light in the later shots
Thank you for this video!
Btw I'm having a perfect life with my ND 16 + CPL if I want to film outdoor :)
Beautiful video 🙂
This is what I have observed in my case, I normally shoot higher frame rates so that I can slow things down In the post, unless it a tutorial stuff or anything! So if there's a sequence where the shutter speed ain't aligned with the frame rate 360 rule, the slowed down footage might get unusable at times! And we all know that, optical flow is always a miss or hit and can't really rely on that totally!
This is wonderful! Regarding a hybrid workflow and the use of filters ... Usually, for video, the use of ND filters helps with getting the exposure settings dialed in to get the correct exposure. How do you go back and forth from photo and video and not have to worry about using ND filters for the video side of things? I've noticed, usually, when I kick into video, the footage is quite over-exposed without the filter. Is there a way to have a convenient/effective hybrid process? Thanks.
I think the shutter speed always matter, at least for us the filmmakers. But most of the time people don't know they are watching something not natural but they just think is it ok. Smartphone's cameras are like that.
I'd like to recomend that always you have to stick with x2 frame rate rule. For me is more pleasant to the eye.
Nice vid btw!
Birds and flying bugs also show frame stutter at higher shutter speeds.
The 2x fps was a general rule with movie film cameras as the film needed to be advanced, which took considerable time. Shutters were two wheels with an opening that could be made wider between them, or smaller. That opening is referred to as shutter angle. Running higher fps than normal (24 fps in 35 and 70mm format) would give a shorter per frame exposure time. Yet with the shutter fully opened, the rule of thumb was 2x fps exposure time. As movie film was not very sensitive, higher shutter speeds (smaller or narrower shutter angles) needed lots of light. 35mm should be compared with APS-C and variable ND filters were not often needed to get shallow depth of field when using cameras with variable shutter angles. They could be used to create fade-out and fade-in shots (or, if you could wind your film back in camera, fade-over). With digital cameras, many of these things are easily done in post. Or simply in camera. I can imagine a digital camera could expose 24 fos at 1/25 sec still as it does not need to transport a film image frame to the next. So, if you want shots with motion blur for artistic effect, sure, use these filters. If there is so much light that at ISO 100, 24 or 25 fps and f/2, you cannot get below, say 1/2000 exposure time.
If no one ever told us to shoot this way would we even care?
Excellent content. For shooting nature videos and views of the ocean (without much movement) with the Iphone would you recommend using a VND and CPL filter in one or just the CPL filter alone? I want to use the CPL, but I'm wondering whether the combined version with a VND (that some lenses have) would be a better option than using CPL alone. What are your thoughts?
The big question. If shooting on the Canon EOS R and mounting EF lenses, would would you recommend the canon drop in variable ND's or the Polar Pro's? I know one day I might get RF lenses, and thus the drop in filtered couldn't be used. But if I'm correct, the Canon drop in V-ND's work incredibly well and reach from 2-8stops. Plus, being able to drop in a polarizing filter would be a sweet additional ability.
Thanks for the great video, Tyler. Also really appreciate the suggestion of purchasing a wider ND with adjustment screw on. That shallow DOF is so delicious btw.
I would totally get the canon ND for the R, that alone makes me want to get that camera. PolarPro is my favourite screw on filter but first party internal solutions are ideal
@@stalman Great to hear your thoughts, thank you!
this is great!
Get a NiSi fixed 3 stop and the 1.5-5 stop VND, perfect setup for money and quality.
Been thinking about upgrading my variable nd think this will be a great upgrade
I know this video is sponsored so ignore me, but this really was the best balance I could find between price and quality.
Tyler Stalman they are not easy to get in indonesia .. no one has them in store. but i am sick of my cheap nd so many issues cant wait to get my hands on one thanks for the video
For cheap ones I much prefer non-variable. They are even cheaper, and the quality is much higher.
@@stalman ahh cool thanks for this tip tyler 👌
Great video as always! Also Is the shirt color a hint to your next phone color? ;)
Yo, out of all the tech freaks, you're the only one I'm looking forward to seeing a iPhone Pro camera reviews. You're gonna kill it 🙌🙌🙌🔥
😅 that’s a lot of pressure!
I love your colors do you sell presets??
Hi Tyler. Did you use the 5D to film your sit-down monologue?
what camera youre using filming your video.?
You are the best!!
What gimball are you using for you canon 5D ?
which camera are you using for shooting this presentation .
amazing job
what focal length u use to separate u from background in your studio (home)
That is a 24mm 1.4 on a super35 sensor
What camera were these tests ran on?
Wadup Tyler awesome video! Wanting to buy a larger sized variable nd filter to cover multiple lens. How big is too big? Current have the Tamron 17mm-28mm and thinking of getting 75mm SLR Magic Microprime. Let me know what you think!
Hey Tyler, been watching your videos for a while now and I've got to say, I absolutely LOVE the colors in your video. Whenever I export a video on Premiere my videos always look faded or washed out. How do you make your exports look so vibrant and crisp?
Is it the Sony camera profile, Luts, over saturation, high bit rate exports, or simply different lighting techniques to make your image pop?
That’s a lot of questions! Premiere specially does have an export issue where it sucks out contrast and saturation, i still don’t fully understand it. Watch a few tutorials on it
lol the ending! That's a great way to test haha
At weddings the couples do not even notice that I crank up the shutterspeed to 1/1000 at 120f/s
They are just happy with the fact that they can see their special moments in slowmotion.
And I also think that these so called rules should break from time to time. Just know what look you aiming for
With slow motion it makes sense to get rid of blur because you want to see the details nice and crisp. I've seen videos where they do advise cranking the shutter speed up when shooting slow motion. Just have to be aware of any light flickers which is not a real issue when shooting outside with natural lighting.
So really, you're doing it right 😃
Wow this quality! What camera do you use to film?
Thank you! A mix of c200c, a7iii and 5D IV
If you don't have an ND filter you can add motion blur with Pixel Motion Blur in Adobe.
Something else that could be worth mentioning, if you need to buy yourself more light and you’re shooting a static shot, slowing down your shutter slower than 1/50th could be the cleanest west of getting proper exposure.
I never ever go below double the FPS, the extra motion blur is worse to me than under exposed
Tyler Stalman
Agreed! I was referring to shots with little to know motion. Buildings at night, lowlight landscapes etc.
Coming from an M43 user, no shot should have a shallow depth of field. hahahaha
Getting the McKinnon for Outdoor shooting... but I’m going to be shooting indoors under two Intellytech L160s and one Aputure 300D for my key... any need for ND inside? Or just keep adjusting those lights?
I use ND indoors sometimes, now that I’ve been shooting a camera that really prefers to be rated at ISO 800. It’s always better to have headroom in your lighting, better too much than not enough
No one seems to talk about variable ND filters and the fact it is impossible with most to use a lens hood and does this matter. Maybe a test on this would be good.
the video is shot so well that the faster speed shots seem like an intentional artistic choice instead of a flaw -_-'
Stylistically, is there ever a time where you DO shoot high shutter speed when shooting video? I found, at least in these clips, a slight dissociation with objects in the higher shutter speed (as you explained) and thought that some of them looked appealing in a non-realistic way. Almost like you could use it in a dream sequence to lead the audiences to feel a certain way.
I have no experience in doing this, was just curious if you had or had heard of that application.
I’ve never had a need for it but i can definitely see the use for people shooting narrative work. The high shutter adds a lot of tension, and conversely you could slow the shutter down for a drowsy look. Personally I hate the slow shutter though (see Fellowships of the Ring)
Some people recommend cranking the shutter for sports footage
I heard that motion blur could be added in the post-production using after effect, could you please test it out.
I know there are plugins but I barely use AE. I know Corridor Crew covered it once
@@stalman Pixel Motion Blur in Adobe, drag and drop.
big question. I work as a video editor in a small production studio. I personally shoot with an ND filter no matter what. But my Videographers at my job tell me that in Editorial, that ND filters shouldn't be used in studio at all. Is that right at all? I literally am given blown out footage on a daily basis. :l
Korrze Why would you need to use ND in a studio? You control the light in a studio. That is what a studio is for. Outdoors you cannot control the sun. Lighting changes on time of day, clouds, or shade.
Hi Tyler, I have been following you for quite some time now, and I`m wondering with which camera you are shooting this content.
I have recently switched to Sony for content production for my clients, but I can`t get the S-Log to be crisp, and colorful like you do.
Care about sharing some presets, or anything? :)
Thanks man! I stopped shooting s-log on 8-bit cameras because it just falls apart too much when I grade it. Either HLG or Cine2 are what I use now
@@stalman Thank you very much for replying! Am I asking too much if I ask for the values? I never know what to shoot in. Coming from Canon cameras, the Sony picture profiles menu is waaaaay more complicated.
Which national park is that in the US - stunning!
It’s Banff National park in Canada
honestly with the youtube compression i can hardly see the stuttering
A lot of top youtubers do it and no one minds. It’s definitely more important in commercial production that casual CZcams videos
Someone help me decide between the 2-5 and 6-9. I’m stuck haha. I don’t intend to shoot when the sun is high up.
Try it on a monitor then you will see why you need to double you frame rate or also known as 90 degree rule
Sunny days 🌟 here in india whole year
If our screens were capable of displaying 1000fps would it feel more natural to our brains? Since it’s all getting displayed at 24 or 60 maybe 120hz on promotion displays does that make a difference at all?
hey, the video is a bit old but still accurate i guess, anyone would recommend, for an A7s3 slog3 mostly at base ISO (640/12800) with a 2.8 lens (sigma 24-70) which ND is appropriate for outside bright day (with double shutter speed rule), 2-5 or 6-9 ? thanks :)
Start with the 2-5, 6-9 will usually be too much
The "buy a larger filter to use with smaller lenses" tip could save a buyer a small mint if they shoot with a range of different sized lenses.
I never understood the point of ND filters on digital cameras. On film it makes sense-since the ISO is dependent on your film stock, an ND filter is the easiest way to lower the exposure without affecting depth of field or motion blur. On digital you can just change the ISO to do that. Unless you’re doing a super long exposure or photographing a solar eclipse or something where even ISO 100 is too fast, why do you need an ND filter for on a digital camera?
5:12 I notice this a ton with drone footage.
I need to get in the hobbit of putting ND on my drone. It can be distracting, especially when it’s moving fast
@@stalman Have you tried Moment's filters yet?
I haven’t but I should
Just whack a filter on when editing
Can some PLEASE explain… why not lower the ISO for free and still be able to use a lens hood and cap??? I cant find a single answer on the entire internet for this question surprisingly
When you shoot in a log profile most cameras iso can only be lowered to around 800, which is very high. And even if you lower to iso 100, if you try to keep your shutter speed correct your aperture still needs to be around f/10
Starts at 5:40
I did also shot one music video with 1/220 shutter speed /25fps.. It looked more "cclean" the movement if you ask me and fit.
I think you can get away with 100th of a second pretty much and I find that Auto Focus works better as well.
That would be super interesting to test autofocus. I know on my phone the AF shits the bed in high frame rates, but that’s probably unrelated
@@stalman I think because the image has less blur the AF just has an easier time locking on. I use a Sony A6300 by the way. just for information.
Yes :)
Good last words. I made that mistake at first. If you are doing landscapes you most likely don’t want shallow depth of field. 😎
Yes.
Just kidding Tyler - super useful to have tests on this stuff!
Tyler, would you ever need this as a photographer? Specifically a portrait photographer. If so, how?
I can’t imagine ever needing it for portrait photography, it’s more of a tool for landscapes
If you want narrow depth of field in bright sun, like shooting mid day. Bokah baby 😊
@@RobSchermerhorn Shallow, or narrow? I thought dof was shallow/deep and fov was wide/narrow.
Those are the standard terms but narrow makes sense too. Definitely a valid reason, if fast shutter speeds just aren’t cutting it
@@RobSchermerhorn 1/8000+ shutter speed if your camera allows it. Electronic shutters on mirrorless cameras can do some crazy fast shutter speeds.
🤣 Great open
♥
I am. Or paying 250 notes for a Peter McKinney ND filter...
We accept things without question. And you think by breaking them God will come down and take your camera gear.
PMVND is too pricey 😢
In that case I would recommend getting fixed NDs. Cheap variable ND filters cause more trouble than they’re worth
I always gave a fuck , to what Hollywood professionals or asc manual says ..but in my own experience i generally use higher shutter speeds ...when ever there is no subject movement ..like the buildings or any non moving objects . As it does affect that motion blur which is a major ingredient for the cinematic look .but it doesn't matter if you just do it for a shot or two ...
And for action or high intensity scenes where i delibrately want that judder like thing to create a feeling of uneasiness .
Not worth the $ imo. I bought the 2-5 stop and got Annoying rainbow color cast on the cars I shot. Selling it now... waste of money
It's an advertisement, that's why there is no word about stabilizing video in post - stabilized shaky video might look better without ND filter
Stabilizing footage and motion blur have nothing to do with each other. There are after effects plugins to generate motion blur but they are really processor intensive and no cheaper than an ND
@@stalman when you're stabilizing an extremely shaky video filmed at 1/500, the outcome will look way better than a similar one filmed at 1/50
Your demo ended with “ go try it yourself” message... If you can’t demonstrate it, why would I pay 300 usd for a fancy VND?
I think you misunderstood, go try some different frame rates to see when you notice the difference 😊
Tyler Stalman yep:) my bad 👐
why didn't you go under 1/50?
I really hate blur, I want everything crystal clear.
5:30 that “stuttering” you are seeing is because you are using a plain wrong frame rate. 24 FPS does NOT scale well to the 60 FPS monitors that you watch CZcams on. 24 FPS is literally the WORST frame rate for CZcams. 30 FPS and 60 fps scales very well toe a 60hz monitor.
Next you'll be asking "do you really need a lens for your camera"