Warframe - Loki and The Death of Crowd Control
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- čas přidán 25. 03. 2024
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Loki has been a topic of discussion lately. And with his QoL changes coming out tomorrow, nows the perfect time to discuss not just Loki, but also where Crowd Control stands as a whole in the game's current state. Amongst the dev team, the over-all thought seems to be: "We want to change Loki, but we're not sure how without making him something that isn't Loki."
Let's talk 'bout that
A Tweet from Pablo is what kinda kicked off this entire video's production, and I kinda dropped a much bigger project that I was in the middle of working on, to work on this one. Been about a month in production, and I put a higher than average amount of work into specifically animations for this one. So soz for the longer-than-average silence in uploads boyos.
as always I want to marry you all ilu (very platonically) ((I just like you a lot))
Make it official. Marry all of us coward
Ilu (very romantically)
I know it's not popular, but I'd like to go back a decade when the enemies were a threat and you were on the edge to survive, not mad b/c you got instant nuked randomly, as it is now.
I'd like to see Loki live up to his namesake and drop the powers he has. Complete replacement of powers. 1. Enemy copy, able to select enemy and turn into i buffed version, not like Nyx's control. 2. Fenrir/Hel summon, call the children to fight by your side. 3. Mirage, gain something like blur stat in DnD. 4. Transform into giant, he's half giant in lore. Passive: Sneak attacks with a dagger do 1000% dmg. Gain 50% dodge change in low light conditions (maybe all time since there aren't a lot of light areas and the mirage grouping was awful.)
I agree on everything in the vid except making overguard enemies immune to damage dealing abilities. they are not distrupt mobs but simply bullet sponges. with how heavily the game spams them being unable to damage them would make the game unplayable.
other then this one point i agree 100%. hopefully lord pablo sees this vid.
About turning Loki into a dps, I honestly saw the original version of his upcoming augment with the 300 random status effects and thought to myself "this is Loki's rework". They should have kept it as is, especially with decoy getting its buffs and is helminth. Before knowing it was a typo, I had subsumed it onto my Nezha in preparation for both the augments release to 10x status damage caused by the 300.
To all the people who say "Just subsume X ability onto the frame and it works" let's not use helminth as a band-aid here.
If a frame needs another's ability to function, then we have a problem
Kinda dislike the whole idea behind it becouse it is a balancing nightmare. Frames that are already strong get even strong and in fact now you want a frame to have 1 "bad" ability to subsumed over it(e.g. Mesa) and the ones really needing a rework are even more left behind (e.g. Valkyrie)
Literally called it during helminth’s launch. DE is gonna have an excuse to not rework warframes because they expected you to just subsume an ability on it to fix it.
@@markoceh8751 honestly this. DE's intent was nice, but they forgot that by adding a system to make shit frames good, they also added a system that made great frames absolutely busted, and now we're back at square one. (arguably same for everything they've added tho. Rivens, archon shards, etc.)
Really the only Warframe that plays well with helmith is probably the top hat jackass. Mostly because no one else is focused in playing with the rules of engagement in the game.
Me: Why does it take trib so long to update?
Trib: *Animates an insane intro to the video just for a bit*
Yes please not a fan of helminth frames kits should stand on their own
@@goreobsessed2308i think you probably have replayed on the wrong comment buddy lol
@@goreobsessed2308I think you’re on the wrong floor the comment you’re looking floor is upstairs
@illumi._. yeah it didn't post to the one I clicked on I don't get why
@slavibg2525 yeah didn't post on the one I clicked on no idea why
“I don’t think this video will do anything…”
-The guy who was single-handedly responsible for the majority of Grendel’s buffs
here’s hoping.
It did something alright
It clearly convinced DE to kill the rest of the games' CC options to make it even more correct lmao
and the monkey's paw curled 😅
@@cheshire7str I take partial responsibility for this, I should have been specific. 😔
@@EL1TE10
F in chat
The phrase "Nuking an entire room is also crowd control" is both the most accurate statement and condemnation of the sheer skew of modern Warframe missions.
I can't be the only person who remembers when powerful CC and lack of ability counters just led to people literally not moving at all because the enemies became so harmless that they might as well be dead.
@@Kaxology going from one extreme to the next is not a good option tbh. There is thay golden ratio.
loki being able to steal and bank eximus powers would be awesome, actually
It's just running a hound that isn't stupid
toxin loki might be broken tho
It would make since too right? Im not very fluent in Norse mythology but Loki is a trickster and steals things… at least I think he steals things. Besides it does make sense either way. He’s stealing the enemies abilities because he wants to or that he just wants to play a trick on them
It would unironically make him a high tier DPS, immediately popping netracell or level cap eximus OG instantly.
Lore accurate change: Loki has massive boobs and has less aggression because of it (this actually happens in norse mythology and Loki is canonically gender fluid, according to the texts)
A video for a frame from 2012 coming out in 2024 does fit well with your usual schedule
W
So here's the thing I find awkward about the conversation regarding CC: The decisions to build counters into the game around CC was made with the understanding that CC is actually fucked-up powerful. It's like you said; it doesn't matter if the enemy is level 1 or level 1,000, an infested charger or a Corrupted Bombard, they are all equally declawed by being disarmed and equally useless if slept or timestopped.
I think the single biggest change the game made against CC was Overguard. Overguard utterly kneecaps a couple of older frames who don't work without their grouping tools (hi Nidus), it obliterates poor Limbo because now enemy abilities pierce the rift and they're not even stopped by Stasis, and you need an absurd checklist of what does and does not pierce Overguard just to keep track of what you can actually throw at the only enemies you care about which will matter, and the items on this checklist are not at all related to their power level. Why does Breach Surge's blind work through Overguard when it's one of the strongest abilities in the game? Why do only some forms of distraction work? Who knows.
Now, here's the thing I want to highlight, actually: The entire reason Overguard was introduced, which stems from the entire reason we have spent a decade nerfing CC to begin with, is to have enemies you are forced to interact with. Nullifiers, and later Arbitration Drones, were designed to present you a cloud of enemies that were a problem you needed to stop, think, and answer, without hitting an ability that could otherwise turn them off with a press of a button. Eximus units getting overguard and having their abilities buffed is the same thing; a VIP target that has to die yesterday, and you can't one-button tell them to fuck off, and they have a huge chunk of their health bar that's thick and resistant to damage and doesn't even feel status as strongly.
And here's the problem: You actually can still one-button tell an Eximus to fuck off, it's just that button is the fire button.
By weakening Control, players turned to Kill. By turning to Kill en masse, the game is now about Kill. Now that the game is about Kill, they started releasing mostly more and more Kill-focused game modes and frames, ultimately resulting in Kullervo's goofy ass being able to literally kill any enemy in the game by thinking about it hard enough, resulting in all other enemies in a fifteen mile radius dying as well.
And the thing is, *Kill is and has always been better than Control, because a dead enemy requires less thoughts per second than a stunned one.* The one thing holding back the power level of Kill was that Kill had fixed output while Control scaled inifinitely. Now that we have equally infinite means to scale Kill, either by bypassing armor which is the game's means to scale or by simply cranking the damage so high that infinite armor doesn't mean anything, Control is literally both weaker and slower than Kill.
And I think now, we need to actually step back and not just ask 'what does it take to make an enemy you must respect in Warframe', I think we need to entirely re-evaluate the question. What is 'respecting an enemy' in Warframe? Because I think recognizing a priority target and spending energy to either stun it and put it in a tidy little box to be dealt with later, strip it of its means to threaten me, or convincing it to attack something else, is a lot more respectful than 'left-clicking it with slightly more authority'.
Just to be clear: Sure, Limbo Stasis Cataclysm turning off entire missions for two button presses is a problem. That is a unique can of worms. But I think we and DE need to think harder about CC on a case by case basis with regards to what should and should not work on VIP targets, especially when the alternative is 'idk just fucken kill em'. I have my own opinions of blanket changes vis a vis 'what should happen when I press which CC buttons on what', but I'm not DE.
I'm just some dude who thinks Nidus not being allowed to play the game in the Circuit is kinda sad.
Part of why aoe weapons are popular becuase THERE IS NO high prio target overgaurd was also made to resist aoe but the damage is still silly high
I absolutely love Nidus. I love his fashion and his abilities. I think the synergy between them is amazing.
But it breaks my heart I never want to take him out of the box anymore. Why would I play Nidus when I could play Styanax or Kullervo or Protea? I see Nidus barely hanging on as a lower tier choice anymore and I'm angry about it. Make my sentient spaghetti monster amazing again, DE.
TL;DR: Enemies that are CC immune were introduced because CC WAS overpowered. Now damage is just being powercrept super hard.
CC wasnt nerfed into dust because CC was overpowered. CC was nerfed because helminthing gloom onto frames that could sustain it was overpowered
@@clockworkseal2135 cc was getting nerfed before gloom existed, before helminth even
And 9 days later, they nerf more CC abilities. Crazy.
The "fix" happened when Dante released, it just wasn't in the patch notes until a few hotfixes later.
@@kami3989 what happened exactly?
@@francobuzzetti9424 When the eximus changes happened and they were given overguard to make them immune to cc, some abilities went under the radar and could cc enemies through their overguard. Like stomp slow, ice wave impedence slow and the blind from breach surge.
When Dante was released (patch 35.5.0), those abilities could no longer cc enemies with overguard and it was only mentioned in patch notes a few hotfixes later (patch 35.5.3).
@@kami3989. I think celestial stomp still slows through overguard
I feel like scarlet spear really gave DE a traumatic experience to where things like coopertive gameplay/events, CC, and powerful alternative weapons, are so gimped and not seen its hayday
facts, limbo got the nerf bat and since then all the new content always has something immune to CC that will either be a big problem on its own or make everything else a problem. like outside nullifiers and scrambi all the problem enemies for CC have been added after that.
i wish scarlet spear never happened cuz after that event CC was actively hurt time and time again for no fucking reason
That event is the whole reason I don't even play limbo anymore and the overguard eximus exasperated the problem further, I might as well be a interdimensional bell hop the way they just walk through my rift like it's a 5 star hotel.
Scarlet spear was a mistake. Even vazarin got shafted by it.
Scarlet spear annoyed people because it was extremely buggy. When it was fixed, many people enjoyed it, and many have been asking for the type of gameplay to return.
While I will die on the safeguard hill simply due to the fact that you can maintain an extended duration + refresh of rolling guard whenever there is an enemy inbound, as well as being able to at least maintain and (to some extent) utilize the mechanics Loki offers. CC as a whole being neglected does feel extremely sour not just for Loki but any CC based warframe that doesn't have an instant multiplicative/bane buffer or AOE spell. But its not just the direction of new gamemodes that are pushing power and damage, rather the shift of our existing farms have altered the way players farm. Back then Xini and Heirachon were EXCELLENT relic farms and were both endless gamemodes that required players to control the enemies for mission progression (It wasn't mandatory to have CC as you still had DPS frames doing their job here but due to the mission structure and type, it allowed CC frames to have a chance and not feel like shit). Now that these gamemodes have been power crept alongside more general damage, there just isn't a reason to sit down in excavation and farm it outside of bile or sibear (or if its the only/best endless fissure on rotation). I think Mirror Defense for a brief time was okay at this because after the hotfix to where you couldn't heal it anymore via powers, Frost/Limbo actually saw some decent use in defending the crystals on both sides temporarily. Now I'm not saying we should make players slog minutes on end for rewards, but maybe striking a balance between missions and rewards would be something to look at. Hell awarding 2 items per round on interception would be a huge boost. Still not enough to compete with Void Capture but enough to at least make it not worthless, and enough for some CC frames to see more natural use as a result.
Great video as always Trib, heres hoping at least someone at Digital Extremes considers your possible ideas for revamping Crowd Control.
There's a reason Mirror D is a top 3 game mode. It takes the "actually use parkour and movement you've been bleesed with" from Void Flood and mixes it with a really cool tileset, but it's never boring, especially on SP.
I also was a member of the safeguard switch cult before I saw your video on it or even discovered you.
But it’s also telling about the position Loki is in that he needs invincibility with 100% upkeep to be a serious competitor in the meta
Hey Nova, wasn’t expecting to see you here. I’m guessing a lot of people won’t be quite on board with making the ‘counter’ enemies ability damage immune, but a) it isn’t that hard to stop soamming your god-deleting button for long enough to fire your god-deleting weapon and b) you could implement a softer form of Trib’s suggestion, making all types of counter enemies suffer some effect from both, only diminished, having dr against damage abilities and either a weakened effect or shortened duration on cc.
That's a good point, a lot of the reward structure is around the newer game modes, that either like or demand high D/KPS. Re-workinf the reward structure could definitely be a boon to some of these other nodes
Why did I read this in your voice
The idea of stealing nullifier bubbles/overguard and eximus effects is actually so good wow
And they just nerfed CC so fewer abilities affect Eximus units.
It's Joever.
Back in the day, your suggestions elevated Grendel from a "like him but wish he was better" to "absolute favorite" for me.
I hope Loki gets an amazing rework, you deserve as much.
The ultimate path: DE does everything in the best path AND Loki gets Fem-Loki as a Deluxe skin.
The good ending
Thats the secret ending 😂
Only if fem-loki is a horse.
Yeah hes now the bentch warmer and the one everyone passes around in the locker room showers after the fights done. Shame.
Peeled loki
Not even 2 WEEKS old video, proved right by the most recent hotfix (at time of comment)
what happened?
@francobuzzetti9424 basically DE nerfed CC again
Well with the Dante patch we got the bad ending
The switch teleport idea is actually really great they 100% should do that
Loki being able to move buffs and debuffs around sounds very in character, imagine stealing a anceints healing affect and throwing it on your teammate, or taking your burn status and giving it to an enemy. Hed still be a crowd control frame, but hed also have more control over the condition of his enemies in addition to their placements
They should, but they wont.
Irradating disarm should just remove Armour as well lol
Yup, this is what I like to see. The discussion topics brought up here, especially with regard to fixes, will definitely stir things up in the community that sees them, and I hope will reach the desks of some of the devs too. I like these suggestions, but I see that they would need work to make them viable to implement.
My opinion in short :
1. slower new frame release (they're getting bland)(would also help primes catch up, because waiting for 3 years for a prime is insane)
2. Bigger nerfs to Helminth, so it's no longer used as a "but that frame doesn't need rework, because subsume exists"
3. MORE REWORKS - like Hydroid, DAMN I love what they did with him. :) (Oberon, Chroma, Nyx, Frost, etc.)
4. More missions with alternatives. Less focus on KPS, harder targets, which are not harder because they can't be CCed, but CC makes them easier.
5. Possibly better focus on making people interact, currently 90% of the time you play with 4 strangers. Why can't those people become friends? Groups of players.
I think the unfortunate truth can essentially be the old saying: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
As much as you or I would like certain changes, Warframe has consistently gotten more and more popular, so any change they make in their eyes could do more harm than good.
I think the unlucky thing is that nowadays Warframe can be a very braindead game, but it's popular even while like that, so maybe a bunch of the player base are people who don't like to think much and just grab a gun and kill things. Nothing particularly wrong with that, but it means any changes making it more complex would be a negative to them.
I've said this many times before, but Warframe could benefit from a crowd control system similar to Guild Wars 2.
For those unfamiliar, in GW2 larger boss enemies are, naturally, CC immune. However they often have a bar underneath their health-bar that is only reduced by CC - hard CC like stuns do direct damage to the bar while soft CC like slows do damage over time to the bar.
When the bar breaks, the boss is interrupted and stunned, and becomes far more vulnerable to damage for the next few seconds.
This system makes CC always valuable to have without allowing the ability to permanently CC more threatening enemies. I personally think this would be a much better system to implement into warframe over the current overguard that eximus have which essentially kills CC completely.
hey, that's basically just like the stagger system in more modern final fantasy games.
Impact status procs do something similar, in that while they normally merely stagger but against enemies like Eximus units Impact raises the Mercy threshold.
blade and soul also has CC combo on bosses
How tf do I tag Digital Extremes here
Update: CC is even more dead than before
That solution about "flipping the script" of enemies inmune to cc is really good, in any case they could also make them a bit easier to damage with regular weapons so they aren't that big of a deal to eliminate in a regular mision, because I know there will be people arguing about the eximus being to hard to kill with their weapons.
Off topic but that reminds me of the solution to rivens I once tought, they were created to give new life to unused weapons but instead people only uses them on already popular weapons and at one point there were a mafia holding their prices in the market.
The solution I tought was changing them to have additives numbers to the base stat, so rivens can revive unpopular weapons with bad numbers by increasing them and only give a really small boost in popular weapons, maybe as a flex slot.
It would be kinda funnier if like, from January to July Overguard and the gang only works against CC. And from August to December, overguard and the gang only affect damage dealing abilities.
A gaming quote my mind always goes back to is “the best CC is killing” (or something) and I can’t help but feel like that’s applied in this case, but times ten
killing is not cc.
@@marsh346The direct quote is "Death is the best cc". Well it doesn't run out, amount of enemies that can be affected is not capped. It cannot be resisted/nothing is immune to it. As much as I hate to admit in WF right now Death could be treated as a cc option given how small TTK is.
@@marsh346 the quote is specifying in situations where you would want to lock down enemies or a particular target, killing them is more effective than every single method of CC. Why slow them down if you can in the same time frame kill them? The only CC which survived is effects like Ensnare which group enemies together for faster kills per second. Even recently Dante can basically cast a mini Maim with Tragedy I think without line of sight. Considering you cast Dark Verse in order to cast Tragedy, you get even more damage from expiring all the slash procs at once.
@@marsh346bro it's like saying the best offense is a good defense be a little more flexible in your lexicon
@@marsh346the best defense is a good offense. The best controlled enemy, is a dead one
9 days later and DE says fuck you
How?
@@mitab1 Further CC nerfs
@@hissingfever8210 we just can't win can we?
@@hissingfever8210what did they do ?
Well this video unfortunately aged like fine wine. :(
Literally king of stealth. So good at stealth to the point some players forget Loki exist.
Octavia has infinite invisibility.. ash is better at spy missions than loki.. and stealth doesn't matter anymore since alarms no longer fail spy missions.. so everyone just uses whatever or revenant reeves through the entire map or wukongs cloud surf to bypass what little challenge was left after the changes...
Equinox arguably could do stealth better with CC and damage but yeah.. just goes to show how little loki stayed relevant in the current meta as the game evolved.
@@KalenTomlinson I would argue that loki is better at spy than ash. not only is his invisibility better, but he can just switch teleport cheese or (probably bugged) switch through some of the glass on Grineer spy missions giving him the fastest clears of some vaults.
Dont forget ivara, the frame made specifically for spy. Bypasses lasers and everything
@undeadinside3571 a lot of lasers you can just void sling through. It's way faster to just switch to operator if you end up in a spy mission than it is to run to your equipment, change to ivara, and be slowed down mid mission
Keep in mind that you can do stealth missions in like 3 minutes solo, and you need to run a boat load of stealth missions (as operator likley) to get ivara
Overall fellas, i always do spy solo because it doesnt matter if you do a party, people just cant do spy like a pro. Its always Rush Rush Rush every god damn where and it always looks mindless. Like learn the lvls, once you got it down pat, Rush till your hearts content. When you trip an alarm in a party, everyone hates you, especially on Sorties. And Rescue missions show it too, people always use the front door, and by the time theyve reached the console ive already gotten the hostage. No time was ever taken to learn anything, other than to run fast and do things like noobs.
just got reminded that they deliberately made overguard not be affected by cc, straight up telling us "don't think about cc, just do damage."
Side Note about Arbi Drones, not only are they immune to all powers, they also have Shield Gate same as players do, so you can't just throw a Glaive prime at them and instantly nuke them, you have to break shield and then kill them. They're the only counter enemies I don't audibly groan at whenever I see one.
Thank you @Triburos, this all needed to be said for a while now. Hopefully Pablo takes an actual look at this and the team takes this into consideration. Crowd Control as a whole needed to be addressed but really all of lokis powers have some better counterpart on another frame. That shows its possible to do, rather than going the Hydroid route and throwing status all over him.
Yeah, but Hydroid can get away with that... I just wished his 4 was more like the ultimate of Kunka in Dota, where he throws and entire flagship to an area 😂
I’m a simple man. I see a new Triburos video, i click on it.
Same
Exactly
Lets just say I think I might've rewatched his videos a number of times that includes too many zeros.
Exactly
Neuron activation ;D
Since you talked about turning loki into more of a support frame, i'd like to mention that most support frames also need a "little" help, as a good portion of them are just straight up worse at supporting the team than even the more damage focused frames currently (styanax giving the entire team another health gate with overguard and giving everyone infinite energy comes to mind)
I don't think in an instance of the case you are saying, no more than Trinity but now other warframes can do even better that what she can do. And the other support, Harrow, he is still excellent of what he does, that is buffing crits and giving energy regen, even if he has CC, the other abilities overcompensate a lot of his lacking.
i am new to this game, does support really a thing? at what point/level support warframe become more useful than just helping the team by nuking the room or simply killing enemies?
@@flowerofash4439 With the current game meta? At no realistic point.
Everything you mentioned in the game is so true with this game's climate; not only is it scary for the future of the game, but the "community" would still be fine since the echo chamber bubble of players would still love "big number go up" as the status quo. I love your ideas and variety thought process of the game's options to play style not just devolving into "what flavor of dmg would you like to take this mission?"
These days just we just grab a Saryn and a random gun and delete a map in seconds, (mini)bosses included
Ah, so nothing has changed since 2018.
@teguh.hofstee *Truly, the more things change-*
*_the more they stay the same._*
@@Jamushu We end as we began.
Yep. I've played since late 2019 and the past 4+ years has just been damage and AoE power creep... @@teguh.hofstee
Honestly this is exactly why I feel like Saryn is awful for squads. See a Saryn? Might as well make a sandwich cause you're not doing anything the entire mission
Oh hey, an entire video on why I can't play my favorite frame Nyx without using the helminth or playing very specific gamemodes
Nyx have it rough. Trough like pre rework hydroid the problem is foundational. She just need half of her abilities to be redone.
I use her with her 4th ability's augment. The slow movement is torture and the build is relatively energy hungry. So you have to suffer to make your frame work which is sad.
@@Riftwalker84 If youre using melee with her augment for absorb, highly recommend Amar's Anguish and Amar's Hatred and 2 amber archon shards with effectiveness of energy orbs. Probably the most fun I've had with her 4
have you considered nourish or dispensary? I know the whole point of this video is "lets fix the problem and not just slap a band aid on it" but it makes the energy eating a lot less noticeable and its easier than begging the funny rework man to fix the frame at the current moment @@Riftwalker84
At least nyx has a okay place and her form of cc works against overgaurd (drawing agro with chaos) Valk is sitting here just withering away as she has 3 bad abilities and 1 okay ability that is in the helminth, like there is the slide attack of her 4, if you enjoy mashing slide spam for an entire mission...
It's so fucking funny that literally yesterday every single cc that worked we had last has been nerfed, and now overguarded enemies are literally imune to EVERY cc hability in the game. LOL
Simply put, DE's balance is down right tragic, this was a beast of their own making. Our very first taste was 2015 with the Archwing update, which brought in our absolute favourite Nullifier Crewman. Now we're 9 years later with the most questionable design choices, and the most absolute ridiculous power creep I've ever seen in a multiplayer shooter. Think about it, how many frames do you actually played from the early years of the game? You'll see Mirage, Mesa, Saryn, maybe one or two others on a consistent basis, it's not to say that some of the latest releases of frames have been misses, but there are some that weren't nearly as good, but a lot of the more recent frames purely focus on just killing things now, and that's the metric that exists now.
Once upon a time, it was "Hey bring a Frost or a Vauban for this defense mission." Not just "Kill everything before it gets too close." Not fully to say that there wasn't a meta like Soma being the king of DPS back then with it's critical chance and critical damage, but you had some options and choices to work with. I will forever stand by with the fact that The Cicero Crisis and Tethra's Doom was the absolute peak of Warframe; barring the platinum revives and abilities being actual mods, there wasn't Helminth, there weren't the relics, there weren't any riven mods, no archon shards, no primed mods, none of the other special types of mods either, this was the time where we were just getting the dual stat mods. Builds were just took what ability mods you wanted, built whichever stats you needed, and off to the races.
It's hard to say when they went past the point of no return but... I'd say it was probably like 2017 or so that they hit that point, and it's just been... Well, a ride, I quit playing for 3 years between 2021 to now, and it's just wow... It's fucked, the game has so much potential, but with the way things are going, it's never going to be realized.
I totally agree with this video. CC has been in a bad spot for years, and that is mostly due to counter mobs. I hope that DE takes at least some of this video into consideration for the future.
HOW IS CC IN A BAD SPOT ARE THESE PEOPLE CRAZY
@@zomtronCC has been on life support for many years, and the zariman update beat its corpse into the ground with the introduction of overguard. Crowd control will forever remain redundant until DE decides to get their act together and realise that its probably a bad idea, and unhealthy for gameplay diversity, to have up to 20% of enemy spawns be literal bullet-sponge field bosses with total crowd control immunity. “Real” crowd control setups barely even exist anymore because the current super meta CCframe loadouts in question rely on spamming DPS to function and just paste cc on top and literally nothing would change if all of their crowd control aspects were removed from the equation.
@@FeelingPinkertonThats still not true at all, even frames like saryn often still feel lacking without crowd control, some of the first advice many shieldgate builds give if use cc or ivinsibility. And if you can't deal with eximus, even without dps buffs from your frame, that sounds like a masssssive skill issue, my man.
@@zomtron >gives example of a crowd control setup
>its just saryn with a cc ability subsumed
@@FeelingPinkerton Yes and if CC she probably wouldn't be so common to put it on. WHile damage and cc is imporant acting like CC itself is dead is silly, because then no one would use it. A big problem for loki is that not only doe she do little besides CC, I think many, many, many cc abiltiies outperform his in the first place. Eximus existing doesn't invalidate Cc, just means you can't sleep while playing the game.
I love the idea of having ice bubble parties... 4 Loki with hounds stealing frost eximus as well...
Would still require DE making it possible for us to shoot through allied frost bubbles, an issue Gara's 4th never has had, or things would very annoying real fast >.>
@@NinjaSyao please don't remind them. people keep forgetting gara exists and i don't want them going "hey wait a minute. she's the better frost" or she's gonna get railed by nerfs.
I really enjoyed this more serious tone of this video. Can tell how passionate you are with this. Plus the animation at the start was amazing
Umm... Well, IT GOT EVEN WORSE NOW
7:28 - Nah. This is good.
As one African warlord says, when passion fades, vitriol can be a good substitute. You got both, and it shows.
glad to see you bringing up Pablo's flawed logic
I've been waiting for him to get a real deluxe skin for the longest time. Hard to consider what he currently has one.
Then Loki's abilities all needing different stats to get the most out of them hurts to mod him. And the devs saying he's fine because of his invis and his invis alone does hurt. Because every other invis frame has so much more other then their invis, especially the very "balanced" Octavia.
His decoy is complicated because I'd rather not get accidentally shot at when the ai is aiming for my decoy . So I'll never use ut, even with his augment.
His 3 is just awkward to use, it at the very least allowing finishers on enemies near the target that was swapped.
That and making his 4 scale off of duration instead of ranged would at least be nice change. And could make it linger too, but that could be a little quirky.
That and making his passive be so he does more damage to enemies that aren't targeting him. Or smth along those lines.
Obviously some ideas are nicer than others, but i just wanted to say simple things.
Thank you thank you for addressing the CC elephant in the room, i really hope DE takes notes, this would definitely help not only Loki but help other CC frames like Vauban, Limbo, Hydroid, etc. to use crowd control effects that benefit the squad appreciatively, instead of them having to withhold their abilities so they do not slow the team down and get absolutely bullied by others. (Limbo especially could also benefit from this plus the smallest of tweaks to let allies shoot enemies and interact on either rift plane, so they don't feel trolled)
With limbo, that to me is basically just 1 thing you need to change. Don't let the plane decide who can and can't deal damage. Just let the plane control the enemy. I have had so many times where I sit there at the edge of the bubble shooting at a stasis enemy, but they take no damage because they are just touching the bubble enough to be held by stasis. And then, in regards to nullifiers, force them to make their way to limbo before the limbo bubble pops and make them instead immune to stasis.
I have not watched your videos or even played Warframe in years but suddenly here you are in my recommended.
Good to see you still around and kicking.
It's like the old saying goes: "there's no better crowd control than death." When people are instakilling stuff and wiping out rooms with a button, disarming enemies and tricking them with decoys doesn't amount to much. Doesn't help when there are so many things immune to CC AND enemy health and armor pools keep going up and up and up.
Also, yeah, that passive is absolutely dated. I have never, and I mean NEVER seen ANY PLAYER use wall latching.
I only ever use wall latching when rivens demand it.
@@noteansylvan6051 funny thing, I just got one of those myself. Too bad I don't have a Loki frame, HAH!
DE: We don't want AFK gameplay that CC provides..... so instead we'll create AFK gameplay but with DPS this time
I really hope this video is brought to DE's attention as I really feel like this is a very big issue that needs to be addressed
Trib, you make some really good points and shine a light on things in the game I knew were a problem but wasn't sure how to articulate it. Many of the reasons you've brought out here are why I've been getting burnt out on Warframe. It is still one of my favorite games but it does seem like it's just churning our more of the same kind of stuff, big groups go down with lots of numbers and flashies.
Keep in mind this is all coming from a Limbo Main. I feel your pain on the CC front. I hope someone at DE sees your video and takes it to heart to look in a new direction.
Thank you for the fine work you do and if you are still not feeling well when you read this I hope you get better soon.
Thanks man
I'm convinced that this game's design philosophy is paradoxal:
-Damage has no limit, you can make builds that deal the cap
-CC's can render enemy presence irelevant after a few button presses
-A frame can be rendered invincible or reduce damage to extreme percentages
*But* at the same time enemies are suposed to resist us at least a bit for a game to exist
So countermeasures are applied and sometimes with very specific arbitrary rules
What i'm getting at is, the design is to give us godlike abilities but to sometimes present us with a challenge
If there is no actual balance, if you can be as good as imaginable in a domain, then either there is no challenge or the game has to take your powers away
This is when specific things disappear, like mono target damage, cc or my will to learn what i can or can't do against a specific enemy just because
There are enough modes to play and feel godlike if you don't want to sweat it
Every power creeping mechanic effectively nerfs what came before since future content has to adapt. This is a spiral caused by the refusal to adressq the actual issues and leads to taking the fun powers away anyway, just in a way that doesn't say "nerfs" on a patchnote
I understand DE as a company can't allow a fundamental change at this point but it still leads to unhealthy elements like the checklist Pablo talked about
Not to mention frames basically need to he god-like enough for solo play, but also balanced enough to work well with a squad. And as we see with Saryn or Dante, they're not. They're only the former
I personally love being a support/healer in games. CC is support. Loki was my first frame. I didn’t understand the game enough to understand Loki when I first started. He was so difficult to understand to me that I didn’t play the game for about a year. Then my PS+ expired. Couldn’t play games with my friends back in 2014 in high school. So I fired Warframe back up since it’s F2P, and I couldn’t stop. Just threw myself into the game, then used Brozime, Mogamu (when he used to cover this game as a true player), and others. What a crazy thing that we play a game that has like 12 hours of a story, but stayed 11 years for basically The Grind.
For me, it was partially why I quit. The story was interesting and fun to me, but getting more took such a long time (especially liked the Harrow quest, The Sacrifice, and I loved getting jumpscared by The Man In The Wall appearing in your orbiter randomly). Most of it was the grind and man, is it a grind, so I quit. Admittedly, though, binging through Triburos's videos and seeing all the cool, interesting frames that have been released since then and missing the ones I used to play, I'm starting to miss the game a bit, heh.
@@equestrianmidnight5619
Come back then tenno :3
@@FrostIsLoveFrostIsLife Maybe. I already have a fun, but grindy game, so a second one? Eh... but then I see they released a WIZARD Warframe and I'm tempted all over again, lol.
@@equestrianmidnight5619 shadow wizard money gang has now 2 frame, Limbo and dente
✨We love casting spells✨
@equestrianmidnight5619 Exactly the same for me. I was kinda interested in the story, but I don't like only being in early-to-mid mid-game with almost 700 hours of playtime.
The sequel to "The No Man Army Problem" I've been waiting for years :)
I was already thinking about that video seeing the title
bro the production quality is crazy, your videos are so good
I wish you well and a swift recovery, be praying for you my dude.
As a nyx enthusiast, i agree with all of your ideas for reworks. To compare it to armor, the best way is to ignore it with slash, or even remove it with corrosive or unairu. You can always brute force the damage, but it's not the most efficient (thinking in terms of 1000s level steel path). Similarly, overguard can be brute forced with damage, but there isn't a straight up counter to it. It's immune to cc, doesn't benefit from viral, corrosive, or magnetic stacks. Also, void is the only thing it's "countered" by?
To get to my point, having cc be a counter to damage resistant enemies is a good thing, in my opinion, but we can make it better. Radiation, mind control, and irradiating disarm all make enemies target eachother rather than your allies, but with the amount of health enemies can have, the damage itself is completely irrelevant. If "confused" enemies could ignore enmey defenses, then i think it would add to the power of some cc sources. It would also be nice if the enemy ai's accuracy would be at least half decent, because it really is more A than I. Yes, my nyx's heavy gunner pet can one shot level 200 SP bombards, but can it hit them?
While I don't disagree with giving a frame the ability to steal eximus properties, the entire reason overguard exists is so enemies can exist for more than 1 second and not be turned off with mass CC. You'd be countering something created to counter years of power creep, which is a self-defeating design idea.
@@NeightrixPrime you've got a point. I just want somthing that can be countered by cc, but checked with damage, like corrosive or slash is to armor, instead of brute forcing. My example might not have been the best, but there is a solution that i just have not thought about
I completely forgot Nyx existed…Banshee too, tbf.
Nyxs mind controll sucks. I put mind controll on loki with damage decoy and it actually kills some enemies by reflecting status effects unlike the nyx mind controll one.
@@chinossynthesizer705 that's a good idea, however the mind control target rarely lacks damage, at least for me. I usually go for around 30k% total damage increase and it one shots level 200 SP corrupted bombards. The thing that sucks about it is that it has poor accuracy, and had a mind of its own, I.E. not doing what you want it to do
That's a new record, an 11 year late video :P
What's interesting is that with your idea for reworking crowd control in general, which I love by the way, the anti-crowd element of those abilities would actually become more of a side effect, hilariously flipping the expected roles of dps and cc to where the cc is the thing for effectively dealing with single targets, while dps nullifies large crowds.
I hope this video gets some traction in DE, I like the ideas you presented and I think you're right
Loki should have more horse synergy
Well i mean we do have kaithes... and mythological accuracy is cool to have...
@@spaz_taz4910 please do not Mr. Hands the Kaithes
HES BACK FROM THE DEAD!!!!
(also get well soon, love ur content, also these spitballed ideas are quite good in my opinion.)
Welp they killed what little use CC had anymore, in regards to overguard at least. Did DE suddenly become Bungie? Because I thought the tone deaf dev's were supposed to be working on Destiny 2.
My main frame at the moment is Frost, and one of the reasons I love him is because Ice Wave Impedance slows through overguard and most CC immunity, and doesn't get wiped across it's full radius when gently brushed by demo pulses or nulli bubbles. It gives him an out to something like a necramech or acolyte staring him down, something besides just 'hit it harder'.
I think every CC frame should have SOME kind of augment that does the same, to give them a counter. In Loki's case, it'd probably be irradiating disarm, though that is dependent on their being CCable enemy mobs around the problem eximii/nullies, and does diddly against stuff like demos. The new decoy effects will likely have the same limitation.
Irradiating disarm should just take off Armor lol making the enemies useless. People hate it because it slows down defense missions.
And so, we awaken from our stupor. For our lord has awakened once more, for now.... also, more on topic, a good way to fix the cc irrelevancy problem would be to flip the relation "nullifior" style enemies interact with damage vs CC. Make it so nulli bubbles blank all damage focused abilities but steadily shrink (or pop immediately in the case of limbo) when subjected to a cc effect. You could apply a similar process to the other enemies of this kind. You could even keep the interaction between overguard and damage the same and make cc interact with it in a way that makes the overguard less effective. It wouldn't fix ALL of the issues cc has but it would go a long way toward a healthier game state.
My man this is the change he suggested in the video, did you even watch it?
@@bendysbrother7447 tired and typed it before the video got to that part, treat this as an affirmation of his idea
@@56safety i see, fair enough
@@56safety maybe take this as moment though to see that you should probably watch the whole vid before commenting, as there are people that are alot more rude than me. Either way have a good day/night.
@@bendysbrother7447 I agree, I also just wanted to get it off my chest cause, as a former limbo main, this topic was a bit of a sore spot. Thank you for being polite!
The wait feels worth it after seeing the amount of effort that you put making these videos.
most excellently made video Trib.
This was an amazing video the whole Idea of flipping the script on the different hindering mobs
Loki was my starter to mate, RIP stealth gas Galatine.
Another mission that is CC friendly is Mirror Defense & we've gotten 2 of those so far with one being pretty rec... WTF is that cursed no neck operator? rofl
Nice vid man solid points.
I think there is also a happy middle-ground for the "Best Ending" outlined in this video.
I play "Banshee" as my CC on a frame that has been utterly disregarded, "Silence" is a very interesting ability in which it can "Turn off" a lot of enemies special powers, Pre-Overguard it could turn off their "Powers and prevent problems before they even occoured, argueably the most interesting feature of this power is blocked behind it, i think Overguard should be swapped around as discribed in the video, overguard should at the very least have "Damage Reduction" to all warframe powers, (around 90%, idk) but CC pierces overguard
On the case of nullifers, i could take it or leave it, i feel like there could be a happy medium where the bubble Pops if CC-ed but the Nullifier remains unaffected until recast?
i do like the "Support" Loki buffs you mentioned, at the very least they are "Fun" power upgrades
I wholeheartedly appreciate this message. I appreciate niche Waframes that could be used in a variety of content to augment the team comp. Heck, I myself was toying with an idea for an honest to Lotus espionage-style Spy frame that could disguise as enemies of each faction and get buffs to him and his kit depending on what faction hes disguised as. Awesome in Spy and Rescue, but could still be used in other nodes with enough skill.
DE saw this and said "bet".
you made a lot of points i’ve been making. the CC disruption needs to switch to damage disruption to allow for counter play and nuance.
personally, the moment that made me fall in love with warframe was the first time Survival as a game mode was introduced. the idea that you just had to stay alive to do well and make it as far as you could? me and my friends brought our best gear, came up with the best strategies and used all the CC we could as creatively and effectively as we could to survive hours long survival at the time.
those memories of using CC creatively in difficult and harsh mission conditions was what made Warframe, Warframe to me.
it was memories of being put in a grinder and forced to think hard to get out of it and stay alive, the same feelings I now get when playing Helldivers 2. using tools, using my head, and succeeding where others don’t. that’s what made warframe magical, but now I barely find that feeling in that game.
for warframe to return to being warframe in my mind? CC needs to come back with a vengeance. piercing or breaking enemy defense as the anvil that cracks the enemy’s back before the hammer of FAT DEEPS crashes down to finish the job.
warframe is a power fantasy game. let us be creative, powerful, and cunning with out tricks and traps, our goofs and gaffs. and let the guns ring loud when we have had our fun.
thank you for reading, whoever you are. may your joy be numerous. ❤
Hijack’s introduction was another love moment for me. this game is great, and it can make so many happy memories. it’s just gotta be treated right. love you for reading! ❤
Me confused as hell seeing NovaUmbra just Make a video saying loki is underrated but good and then Trib making a vid saying he ain't
Novaumbra was yapping about nothing. Why crowd control when you can simply nuke the map? Loki isn't good.
I have to say dude your editing skills have improved so much over the years😮
Ah, I still can always enjoy a trib video, I need a live stream out of you, sir, and I can't play warframe, but damn do you make me miss it just with ur ideas, hope ur doing well loki main
Trib could work for disney at this point. His animation is too good.
22:15 Sevegoth's Claws, as well as last I checked Gara's Splinter Storm's AoE, but those are extreme edge cases where they get treated as normal attacks.
Also I wanna say, it's really funny going through the video without hearing a single mention of Nyx or Banshee
I have written theoretical reworks for him a couple of times and have had many multi hour conversations about a rework for him, with every theoretical rework trying to both remain faithful to the original frames design and also to lean into norse mythology more.
Incoming wall of text.
But here goes my current theoretical rework.
Passive: Give him a wolf like Kubrow, Fenrir. That only has health. When Fenrir dies, he returns to Loki and deals additional strikes(based on Fenrirs Damage) alongside Lokis Melee or Speeds up reload time for guns with magazines by handing Loki a fresh mag.
Fenrir Precept Mod 1: Gliepnir - Fenrir Chains enemies to the ground applying a damage increasing debuff to all enemies within a radius.
Fenrir Precept Mod 2: Æsir Bíta - would function similar to the Chesa Kubrows Neutralize, but it would give him overguard, apply a heavy bleed, as well as disarm.
First Ability: Short-range instant teleport similar to Wrathful Advance but would knockdown enemies at both the starting and ending positions.
Potential Augment - Fenrir also teleports to the ending spot and uses Gleipnir unaffected by Fenrirs cooldown.
Second Ability: Same Invisibility, but with an augment or a base effect that refreshes time with each kill.
Third Ability: Litterally the current fourth ability plus its augment. Though with a couple of changes, Headshot Kills would spread the radiation proc, and Melee Kills would spread the disarm. As well as changing the animation to be just snap with one hand so as to not lock the player in place and to allow them to keep shooting. The spread could also be an augment instead of a base feature.
Fourth Ability: (not to sure about this one) Creates 2 clones of Loki that run around(sticking somewhat close to Loki) attacking enemies with copies of Lokis Melee dealing 40% damage(affected by strength) 100%(affected by strength) higher status chance (multiplicative of the base status chance) and if no Melee is equipped they instead use an unmodded Skana. Could have the duration be moddable or not and have a cooldown that reflects that duration that can be reduced with efficiency(Idk I don't really think it would need it but some might thinks it's incredibly op and that could be a way to balance it)
Potential Augment - Also creates 2 clones of Fenrir.
You went out of the way to do all the animations in the beginning. Respect.
I do think the idea of making overguard immune to damage powers and suceptible to crowd control would be a good place to start.
Damage frames still get to wipe everything else off the map, CC gets to deal with some enemies better than dps powers. Perhaps also making eximus enemies stronger would make CCing them or fighting them 1v1 more impactful
They made overguarded enemies specifically so that CC frames don't shut down everything leading to afk gameplay
@@Hezkunand DE made a mistake with that and preferably either reverts it or changes it to favor CC over DPS
Bro this level of animation and edition! BRO EVEN THE GREEN LIGHT WINK AT 0:25 GAVE ME AN ERECTION, I MEAN- LOOK AT THIS SHIT IN 24:05!...the time you put in this video, not only its duration but all its shorts and cuts with demonstration and proofs of serious issues that the game has, reflects hard work over something you love, and i love that
nah bro, i bow towards your skills and hard work in this video the dedication and love you put in, its the equivalent dedication and love you deserve for your content, truly a masterpiece
Tribubu, no-homo, but i wanna kiss you for this video, thank you
As a vauban main, I feel this video to my core. God, I even use him less and less for it not to be a hindrance to my team. For some of 'those' missions I tried using oberon as my go to frame. Also, for my perspective nullifier bubbles are there for us to be a hindrace, so it affect all cc and damage skill (differently, rip limbo main), and as for the overguard, yes let cc can bypass it meanwhile damage skill can't. And moar game mode for use cc player to play along side damage frame TT
Edit: forgot to put one here, I love your new style of editing and good day to you!!
u r really pushing the bar of high quality wf content, great stuff
21:20 I know I’m cherry-picking here, but I think something important to keep in mind is that while CC needs to be buffed, we shouldn’t make it MANDATORY for certain enemies.
Having CC be the only option to deal with overguarded enemies would then make pure damage frames suffer. There should always be options available.
The other buffs you suggested were pretty good, as the non CC option for nullifiers would be to enter the bubble. And the non cc option for arbitration drones would be to focus on the drone.
I guess the only thing I can come up with for the overguarded enemy suggestion would be to still have them be vulnerable to weapon damage. I’m not sure whether or not you already had that in mind but I don’t think you mentioned it.
Actually now that I think about I probably should have assumed that they would still be vulnerable to weapons so I guess I’m just stupid.
But I do think the line between making CC better vs making CC mandatory is something to think about
I’m not gonna lie, i completely forgot you exist. I am pleasantly surprised by your existence.
YES. I 100% agree with you here. I've wanted a return to more CC focus for so long now. Fantastic video. Back when Loki was king, the game was at it's most fun tbh.
I like your suggestion, it feels like it makes the anti-power effects actually do their intended job.
This aged like wine. DE is braindead.
Here, fixed it.
Passive: enemies that miss loki has 50% chance to be disarmed, loki has a base 30% chance to evade. If loki is invisible, he pulses out a small radial disarm every 3 seconds.
1 st: decoy gains aggro, and has lokis passive, decoy also has a chance to cast pull on enemies that target it. Decoy can be manually detonated, pulling enemies in a radius, stripping armor on disarmed enemies.
2: invisibillity. Both when casting and on duration end, disarm enemies in a radius. Disarm range is based on duration.
3. Switch teleport. Teleporting a decoy or enemy casts radial disarm based on distance between teleported target
4. Radial disarm removed. The abillity now allows loki to summon 4 dummies, that each afflict a random status when hit, or when expiring explode for the same effect. Dummies inflict 3 additional random statuses if the enemy is disarmed. Dummies dont expire while loki is invisible.
Decoy and dummies dont have heath. There you go. Loki fixed.
Conclave.
Irradiating disarm can literally just be switched to remove armor or 5 random status effects like dmg decoy the enemies would be useless because no armor no weapon. If decoy absorbed enemy dmg and exploded that would be way too op. The conclave loki decoy is very aggressive and shoots weapons
Id say also what makes dps so good is that alot of status effects cause staggers so even if you are not a cc focused frame and more linked ro suport or damage you will have an inbuilt cc potential if you are able to deal the right status effects
I'm pretty sure I've almost watched this video 5 times through now, and I must say, I fully agree with these points, so much that for the beginning on me playing after watching this vid the first time, my brain was thinking that the changes you talked about here... were already in the game and in effect... and it kinda threw me for a loop when it WASN'T what you were talking about here... So yeah, good video :D
Pablo needs to watch this video.
the first minute looks so good it could be animated by an entire team, good job man.
the only thing i found a bit odd was the gravestone, dont know the long silence and the lingering was rather off putting. i also have ADHD so dont take too seriously.
love you
Read the new patch notes. This video ages like a fine wine.
Now I understand why Trib didn't make a video for Whispers in the Wall. Bloody hell, the effort that went into this video....
he WAS good at animating
now he's even further BEYOND!!
Years later and the introduction of nullifiers really is still the worst mob introduction ever
As an ex-Peaceful Provocation Equinox main: Agreed on all of it, honestly. I remember back when the augment was added: It was the BEST THING for encouraging build diversity with her. She was still a bit weaker vs corpus and corrupted seeing as how Nullifier'd enemies were safe from it, but it was still fantastic otherwise. Fast forward to overguard being added: And now that setup is effectively useless unless paired with another protective frame (Oberon, Wisp, Citrine, etc). All it takes is one overguarded enemy to show you just how little actual defense Equinox has.
That dynamic shift... Never really sat right with me. And yeah, you're right: Such setups were already niche due to how most missions flow in Warframe. They really didn't need gutting as hard as they were. I wouldn't mind if they revisited overguard, specifically the overguard enemies have. Even if they simply made overguarded effects half as potent as they normally are: That would STILL go a *long* way to making CC frames at least usable again. The fact that Cold/Electric/Gas weapons are better than actual CC frames is a *CRIME*, in my eyes. The frames in lore are supposed to be peak when it comes to power, with some exceptions. So why is it that a spray bottle with just a touch of static able to significantly outperform several of them?
Anyways, that's my rant on the matter. I do agree: Something really needs to be done. The hardcounters are way too hard of counters, regardless of if that was supposed to be the point.
As for Loki: I would absolutely love if they turned him into a team utility frame. It would be so fun having a frame with proper enemy interactions, rather than just armor strip and all that jazz. Not to mention: Having him be enemy interaction based would also preserve the fact that he is supposed to be one of the quick ones, even if he's not a true speedster like Volt or Gauss. I can imagine the shit-eating grin of a Loki player seeing something like a Sanguine Eximus or an Arctic, knowing he's about to turn their BS on themselves. That genuinely sounds fun to me, and I want to see such a change in action.
HOT DIGGITY ON A PIKE DAMN your editing and animation improved as of late
I actually like the Debuffer/Support suggestions for Loki made here. It seems like a fun and active way to play, and would never be bad to have in a party.
rip loki we hardly saw you
I am so glad you made a video about this. I completely agree with this. The lack of variety and death of crowd control was the reason why I stopped playing, still a great game. However, I played vauban after they recently released overgaurd and kept almost dying in an easy level 50 mission because those elite enemies kept appearing out of nowhere, nearly killing me. Forcing me to actively search for them and kill them with my guns, which I was still leveling, it was difficult to strip the overgaurd and kill the elite enemy underneath while also being attacked by others spawning in. Not being able to reliable use my abilities, especially on the toughest enemies, made the game stressful and not fun to play. This includes a lot of frames I grinded for and built up just to be rendered useless, not just obsolete.
All of the things you would change for Loki to make him support sounds amazing. I would love for him to be able to do crazy stuff like that. He would be so much more unique than he already is and we don't fully have any frames that can do that sort of thing.