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This pod is an incredibly valuable part of this community, thank you for this episode. I’ll be listening in my all black keffiyeh! 🖤🇵🇸

OK om not a goth expert I'm sure boomers did not crate goth goth was crated in the early 80s after the fall of punk near the end of the 70s

I'm coming back to this post ages later. Sanctus Maniam passed away over a year ago and it warms my heart to know that they got to be interviewed. I hope their mom can listen to this when she's sad. I'm sure she did when this debuted but I think a lot of folks forgot about this conversation. Thank you for talking to them. I wish I'd remembered this at the funeral, it's nice to hear their voice again. Knowing this is here and that I didn't dream this up is actually really huge. The grief is still palpable, whatever their views were. Losing them was so sudden and a shock to everyone but their views live on. RIP, Misty. Thank you for being on this Earth even if briefly...

I'm definitely Millennial but I always enjoy hearing about older generations and newer ones, too 🖤🪦

I'm not interested in politics but I do enjoy dancing the night away and getting in touch with my inner Monster 💀🪦🖤🐺

Thanks for the insightful, well thought out & intelligent information in this episode. I really hope people that listen to this later appreciate it as well.

I'm pleased to see this topic covered as well. That title scared me. My father is from the region, though we are from a Turkic minority. Anyway he says the original peninsula/ Yemeni people are "Arabian" while the people who through various other routes are seen now as Arab come from other other histories.

There absolutely has been pushback against electronic music in Europe, Tubeway Army was panned in the beginning, and so were Kraftwerk after leaving the krautrock sound behind. Conservative critiques absolutely hated them. That dude sucks and has no idea what is he talking about. The cultural shift did not come 'seamlessly', a lot of old people that LIVED trough the begining of synthpop still categorize it as 'non-music' and claim that only rock is a valid musical direction.

Glad you're covering this topic. Love to see the goth community come together to fight colonialism, genocide and Zionism as a whole. Palestine deserves to be free. No ifs, buts and other excuses.

Coming back to this older ep, I def think the idea of goth as a social media “aesthetic” instead of a real subgroup of people with shared interest hasn’t changed much. There’s a hyperconsumerist angle that y’all touched on - this idea of needing to make yourself fit by buying things but not thinking about if it “sparks joy.” Theres a fashion educator named Rian Phin who talks a lot about understanding yourself before shopping. By knowing what makes you happy, the rest comes naturally. It was fun to see yall come to the same conclusion! As a babybat I’m always appreciative of the more sociological analyses. To me the overlap of Goth and Academia sparks a looooot of joy 😉🖤 (also I took that pottermore quiz years ago and got a naked mole rat as my patronus. Pretty brutal lol)

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Gen X did Goth culture best. Future generations got it mixed up with Metal and Emo. Metal was its own genre separate from Goth. 90’s Industrial brought in what was viewed as Metal Industrial, in Goth. But in the 90’s Industrial was a branch off Goth. I hate seeing the Goth Atheistic being bastardised. Each decade sees Goth become more mainstream the same as what happened to Punk. I think there’s a conundrum between what is considered Goth Rap and a gangster attitude connecting itself with Goth, because earlier Goths were beaten up by so called “Gangsters” just for being Goth or we’d be called “Freaks”, so it makes it harder to except it as part of the scene.

While I have found no connection to gothic cultural, there is most definitely a philosophy that surrounds it, however open ended it might be. While the aesthetics are quite pleasing, I've discovered that the acceptance of the darker sides of nature to be the crux of what goth is. At least that is what I've come to believe. I appreciate your thoughts on this matter.🦇

Gen Z seems to be doing better with kepeing the subculture alive than younger Millenials did in the late 2000s early 2010s

Hail satan hell For me

Hey, so .. I know this video is way old by now but I was wondering if that pdf library of papers you had still exists and if maybe you'd be willing to share it in a google drive or dropbox or something online? I've been starting to do some personal research into the goth subculture just for myself and it would be awesome to have some of that that's been curated by someone who already has a pretty good grasp of things.

I'm still really loving and excited by your content. Just some feedback, I'm not sure if it was just me, but I would of loved this as a visual youtube, as opposed to a podcast. Only because I had trouble making out the different guest voices, & therefore at times getting lost with generational experiences, until more obvious things were mentioned. I hope I've explained myself properly. Otherwise, as I mentioned, excellent content. Thanks for all you do.

In my area in nothwestern germany i see a tendence to an older subculture in discos ore festivals. Im somewhere in the "elder" middle of age of the people.... I think we are near the same year of birth, so you know what i mean. With the years i got much into oldschool ebm and other old stuff punk/postpunk for example and I enjoy that in music and style very much. I like the elder ones at subculture events, there are very nice people in that generations, buuuut: I like to see very young people too. Hey, the young goth, punks, metal heads, electro heads, freaks are oure future. We dont want to become a seniors dance tea subculture. Ergo: There are no better generations, just style and music you like more ore not.

Dance vibe is different with the young ones I feel. Happier and faster feeling. Part of me thinks because the world is much more accepting now in comparison to before. Although clearly much more work must be done. Perhaps as the mainstream culture gets more “tolerant” the alternative culture becomes more mainstream.

Recently I went to a pop-up club in Central California. It seemed like it was mostly GenZ. Although, I’m GenX, I’m guessing I look Millenial. Some of them approached me to talk. Anyway, it was a night I felt I had to do my elder goth duty if you will lol and get the dance floor going. Many of them seemed to not dance like any goth style of any era prior. Some were dancing like normals in a mainstream club/party atmosphere. Some were dancing in gothy ways with groups of friends. Some seemed to start after watching me dance alone in gothy ways. When I got there there were a few people dancing here and there but the main dance space I saw a little crowd grooving in place focused forward to the DJ on stage. I’ve been noticing of GenZ in California - mostly LA area. At clubs, shows and events, they orientate themselves to watch and record the DJ rather than live and dance in a 3d irl room. I have a hunch it’s because they look into there phones and devices so much rather than the space literally around them. Others seem to literally just stand in the middle or the edge of the dance floor. I talked to a GenZ friend of mine and she thinks there may be something to that, that it’s come up before. Usually when I go to a dance night, it’s mostly GenZ to younger GenX. Shows and some events will bring out more Boomers and older GenX too. In LA, from what I see young GenX is still getting out. I do a mix of going out with my millenial friends or go alone. For my safety attempts when I go alone, I don’t drink and i order a car to drop me at the door and call for a car while I’m Still inside. When I was young before Uber and Lyft, I would get a taxi if I could afford it or make sure to wear my steel-toes, metal box purse, plenty of spikes and make sure to get there at a peak time for arrivals to walk close enough to look like part of the heard.

I stopped by the podcast after I saw that you were going to touch on politics and wanted to hear the thoughts others had. Myself, speaking as an older member of the community, cannot stand idly by while people I care about are being harmed by repressive extremist Right Wing policies and hatred. Of course, I love and appreciate the commentary and insights you and your guests always bring here.

We know who the hotter goth is 😂

Hilarious that people are styled like how we grew up

Goth was at it's height in the 80s and OG Goths are Boomers I am not a Boomer Just don't write people out of their Cultures and act like My Generation invented them ? That said we did grow up with it and even your AVATAR IMITATES how WE GREW UP ?

Uh You literally Both imitate Other Generation's Cultures and Styles ? Is this a J O K E ?

Thank you for the video I always appreciate listening & keep up the good work.Who does Goth best I would say Gen X then Millennials Gen Z just mess it up 🤣🤣🤣

Thank you for a wonderful chat! Had a blast 🖤🖤🪦🪦

2:10:31 I think a lot of the Gen X and Boomers go to steampunk conventions now, since it’s more and more goth adjacent and often have goth DJs or bands. I am ok going to events solo. I meet new people that way. But maybe there is pressure about being photographed alone? I was told it was “sad” I went to events alone by someone younger. I really only show up to dance and I can do that better alone, especially early in the night when the stage is empty…no bumping. :) I wore a skirt with a train once…once…I had to make a finger loop for it since it got stepped on a lot! It isn’t “male privilege”. I am a female and went to goth clubs in big cities alone. You just carry mace or your keys between your fingers.

Neither. Gen X rules. I miss the days when there weren’t cameras everywhere. There is one club here that doesn’t allow phones, so that’s nice. 2:05:50.

I’m coming back to this older episode, and the point at 42:33 it’s still so relevant. I’m currently doing a thesis on fast fashion and the way that textile waste is environmentally degrading developing countries - and the expectation that Goths are meant to be dressed to a certain higher standard is part of the reason so much clothing ends up in landfills. There are ways to create a gothic closet that is customized to your personal tastes and comforts (textiles, silhouettes, patterns) that still count as “goth.” Trying to emulate the “correct” way to be instead of trying to curate their own understandings of their style and how that relates to the larger Goth scene is what is fueling this high turnover of clothing that then ends up in the landfills, and pollute the beaches of Ghana or leeches, toxic, dies in the waterways of India. Fast fashion companies often capitalize on this insecurity in personal style, and will quickly create fashions that are cheaply made, use the labor of exploited peoples to create, and do not last longer than a year. If the origins of this community have such strong roots in DIY, and, the liberation of fashion through androgyny, then Goth fashion should be an experience that is flexible in its expression, but still responds to the core tenants of what it means to be (the appreciation of darkness, etc., etc.) Anyways, ramble over. I’m always appreciative of the conversations on this channel 🖤

Remember, Goth is liberation not confinement We're always welcoming different types of people and you don't have to be "goth" while attending your first club My friend introduced me to a friend who wasn't goth per se but she said to me that the ladies are wonderful and the men are gentlemen She said to me that I was the most polite person and complimented my dance moves 🖤🪦💀

I was dating the BT Goth girlfriend before it was a thing But I assure you one tidbit, I wouldn't have labeled it that atrocious name 🖤🪦💀

This definitely takes me back to when I just entered adulthood and got to go clubbing in the '00s I met and got engaged twice and married once Met some friends, frenemies and a nemesis I finished filming a horror movie and later met my now ex-wife

This is the most eloquent and thorough explanation I’ve heard on defining Goth. Thank you for your service! 🦇

Loving the nostalgia. The photo collage is amazing! My partner and I have been doing a lot of talking lately about how the baby bats these days seem to look back on this time kinda like how we in the 00s did with the early 90s (depending on your age) and of course the 80s, and how all the shades and eras of goth experience need to be preserved for the youth for entertainment and educational purposes. It's so surreal to have a time you lived through be looked at through lenses of idealization by younger folks. Thank you for your labor for this community 🖤

Steampunk = goth adjacent as Dieselpunk = EBM/industrial adjacent (Electroswing). :)

Abney Park was a goth band. Then they changed their clothes and “became” steampunk. I know there was some grumpiness from goths about this being a sellout thing. But, as someone who does workshops at steampunk conventions, we don’t make that much money! :)

Bands like Valentine Wolfe, Feral Ghosts, Frenchy & The Punk play steampunk conventions. Like they say…steampunk is when gothic black ages to sepia! So much dark folk like Eli August and The Gin Rebellion too.

In my town, goths and strippers both bought their shoes at The Wild Pair.

Yeah, you really can’t find goths or punks by only their dress anymore. Maybe you can find steampunks. I saw a girl dressed goth with a Cramps sweatshirt on a few months ago and I asked her what her favorite Cramps song was and she said she got the sweatshirt because the graphic was cool. She didn’t listen to them. But hey when the Kardashians throw the word goth around and wear corsets…look how much of that goes on like at the Met Gala…it really waters down what goth is now. Oh you mentioned Nick Fiend. Love that guy! Ms. Fiend too! More awkward goth! That needs to happen!

Never heard of the “no smiling” thing. I was never told by anyone what to do. :/ I just danced swirly too. I never got why it had to be named. I was never pressured to “bring it”. Was it different in other cities or countries? Was it just your peer group? It reminds me of that movie, “My Summer as a Goth”. Bands smiling too much? Where was this? My experience was totally different. I smiled and had a ball. :) I have heard of the “goth card” and “goth points” as jokes, though.

I always felt Laibach was satire. I also think the “sad goth” was that many new wavers or New Romantics listened to both The Cure and The Smiths. Writing poetry in the cemetery and reading Mary Shelley. :)

I found the 90s less sexist and less fat phobic. A lot of the smaller run goth zines had plus size girls in them. The thin goth is the stereotype but I didn’t feel this until I lived in CA. The gothic beauty contest one of the later magazines had were odd to me and thin goths always won. :/ I felt in smaller towns, everyone was accepted early on because it was underground. Less people.

I remember mix tapes were key. Your friends would buy all different music and trade or even record songs off the TV!

I wore trench coats in the late 80s in high school. The Cure wore them in a poster I had. Also easy to find in a secondhand or surplus store. Still wear them but buy fancier ones with piping or more Victorian looking in rich wine velvet or purple wool.

I was told to wear less black in the 90s at jobs, so I would go to thrift stores and buy the grossest items to wear. I found a green sweater made out of leather chords and it had an odd smell. Hot pink angora sweater and skirt set. Neon dresses. Ugly tye dye stuff. They never asked again. I had girl friends who had to borrow clothing that wasn’t black from friends for jobs. We also colored our hair in the bottom layer or shaved the bottom layer so we could put our “normal” hair so our parents wouldn’t find out. I don’t think any of my male goth friends had the same problem with dark clothing since that was the norm for men. Sexist, yup. There was an idea girls only wore pastels or maybe neon…it’s weird to think about it now.

I went to H&M and there was a girl in complete goth makeup and Baphomet tee shirt, working the register. What a world! Or a girl with neon makeup all over her cheeks at Kohls. Crazy. I compliment them. :)

Metrosexual goth. :) Odd image in my head now.

I remember a Elizabethan collar moment in the late 90s/early 00s. Still have mine!

Ooh, is there talk about goth magazines here? I have so many and bought them at local music shops. Tower Records, remember that? When I moved, I thought of selling them, but they are precious, so I still have a comic book box filled with them. Some were even one off. I just can’t let them go. Propaganda, Ghastly, Black Moon, Industrial Nation, etc. Sigh. And some cool European ones with so much information on bands. Can’t remember the names of those unlessI dig in the box!