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I suggest sticking with the Racer 2. For me the Escalante 4 is soft. Sometimes I did feel like I was rolling around on the midsole, especially when I got tired.

@@barefootrunreview having to move from the Racers in the upcoming winter months unfortunately. the mesh upper means my feet get really cold as I use them for daily casual use, my foot can't tolerate conventional footwear I've just ordered Escalante 3s, do you have any recommendations that boast the same sweet spot between responsiveness and softness as the Racer and without the problems mentioned with the Escalante 3, be it Altra or otherwise would greatly appreciate it

How do you find the length especially with the stiffer rocketed base? Does the roll through transition well under the ball of the foot?

Sure thing! The two shoes that come to mind are the Bahe Revive, and Lems Primal. Both sit at around 10mm in stack height, so remain flexible and somewhat minimal. The fit of the Bahe is a little deeper than all the shoes mentioned, so beware of that. Both have good width throughout the whole foot. Worth a look I think

@@barefootrunreview thanks very much, greatly appreciated 🙏

What weight did your original Escalante Racers come in at? Oh yeah. What size too?

@@barefootrunreview Racer 1 EU43, 216g/218, Racer 2 EU43 249/251g It's ridiculous these are the heaviest shoes I have in my rotation. I also have the Metaspeed Sky, the the Asics tri Noosa 14, the Nike Alphafly 1, the Merell Vapor Glove 6 etc.all of which are lighter. I weighed all shoes on the same scale

Wow. I measured my racer 2's EU42.5 at 220g. I'm surprised that 1/2 size could contribute to that much weight gain. I wonder why yours are weighing much more. 🤔

@@barefootrunreview me too...

@barefootrunreview p.s. I've returned them by now. Even if there was something wrong with my scale or my shoes, I didn't see the point in keeping something that's inferior to its predecessor in every respect...I have a pair of racer 1's that will last another 500k ...

Awesome! Glad they worked for you!

I'd mostly disagree with what you're saying around the fit, and the fact they don't have additional space in the toe box. But I do agree with your assessment of Topo doing a slightly better job on toe box width and depth. I also can't speak to the toe box width in a NB models with 2E width options.

Much wider in the midfoot. I actually think Altra is fairly narrow in the midfoot. I have issues with many of their models, even the Long Peak. The toe box is similar to a new Esclaante, or Torin. And it's much deeper for me.

version 3 was said to use the "standard" last which is supposed to be narrower than the Original, which is what the 2.5 and the 4 uses. But yes I have the 3s and the insole was basically identical to my Via Olympus 2 with the "original" last. However the actual room in the shoe is much tighter. it has a low instep which is an issue. I think they were going for a tighter fit with the knit upper however I cant get mine to fit unless I remove the insoles.. fine with me. removes 5 mm from the stack which I don't need anyway and just as comfy. I'm glad the 3 actually looks good, but it's nowhere near as flexible as the 2.5 or even the 4. My NB 1080V12 are a better shoe and the stack height is basically the same just slightly more. But I heard the made 4 much firmer in the midsole, which.. it's like why? The midsole on the 3 was very comfortable but not mushy. Altra needs to get it together.

The materials on the 2.5 were VERY flexible (too much in my opinion), so I can see why this felt more loose. Although I'm confused that the 3 would feel more loose. Even though the shape of the shoe is similar, the upper materials were stiffer and more fitted, this lead to a more shallow shoe too. Where do you feel the tightness specifically. Maybe there's an aspect we're missing that you've found.

@@user-xf4es7eh9y I generally, ignore the "FootShape" Altra advertises with, I believe it adds more to the confusion that it does to help. And with that, I think the Escalantes have been made with the same "shape" all this time, but what's changed is the upper and the midsole material. > But I heard the made 4 much firmer in the midsole, which.. it's like why? Where did you hear this? I'd consider the 4 much softer than the 3. But maybe not as soft as the 2.5.

100% yes. The standard Escalante range has always been somewhat soft (apart from the 3). This Racer 2 is firmer and more stable for me.

What do you think of the insole that comes with both the Escalante and Escalante Racers? I hate them!!! They are weirdly squishy and make any ground feel impossible. I like the Escalates when worn with ‘normal’ insoles taken from other barefoot shoes. Have you tried reviewing the shoes with different insoles?

​@@AndreS_22246that's an Altra thing. Most of their insoles are thick and squishy. I find they tend to flatten over time. I did try both models with a 3mm in sole, but felt I could get a better lockdown with the original insoles. And for me Fit comes first.

@@barefootrunreview thanks. Yes I agree about fit and lockdown, and that you need the correct ‘volume’ from the in sole to achieve that. I actually bought some quite hard EVA foam in 3mm thickness and cut an insole shape from that. So my ideal set up is: Escalante Racer, take out their insole, add my DIY 3mm layer and a Xero shoes insole. Sounds daft but I love it!! (Although I wish the Escalante was more durable…) Thanks for your excellent channel and website.

I just ran 65km race in these! Worked a treat.

That's sad to hear. I've only heard good things about the company so I'm somewhat surprised. I hope you find a solution.

@@barefootrunreview thank you!They don't even care to reply my emails so hard to find a solution...what a bad experience and service.

You got it! Fit comes first!

It is at least as wide.

I never ran in the OG Racer, but from all accounts I've heard the racer 2 has the same fit as the original.

Same fit and shape, but feels differently since it is much heavier and stiffer... the racer two is like weight training for your legs

Pretty decent. :) These are my go to casual/everyday shoe because they do seem to stick out as sporty shoes.

@@small_strides if the Escalante 3's work, stick with them! You'll find the cheap right now. :) And as long as you're pairing them with some more minimal I think you have a perfect rotation. If you head over to my website barefootrunreview.com, you'll find reviews for nearly all Xero Shoe options. But I've not got videos yet, because this is all new for me. For me the Xero shoes Speed Force II is great. Very minimal, that true Xero shape and lighter than anything else. The HFS II didn't work too well for me, it seemed a little stiffer and more cushioned than the typical Xero options. But that's a personality thing. The prio Neo can be a nice compromise between the HFS II and Speed Force II. Anyway. Hopefully that helps. Let me know if you'd like to know anything else!

@@barefootrunreview I love the escalante 3 - as sneakers/walking shoes, in winter, when I can't weat thin soles... but I'd never run in them - they are way too heavyvfor running

I've not personally tried the Magnifly 5, but I've tried ST's in the past, and Terraventure's. I'm really not a fan of the pronounced arch support they all had. From what I've heard that's true across the whole range. Because of that I decided not to review any more of their range. (I've only got so much time and money 😀 ) In generally, I noted that Topo's seemed to be a little wider in the midfoot, and had a little more depth than most Altra models. And the build quality seem to be better overall which I think would translate to a longer lasting shoe. I hope that helps a little! :)

@@barefootrunreview thanks!

They have a directional microphone which yields better autdio quality than the phone microphone. They are a must for now.

What's your problem 😂

I too have an ear fetish! 😉👂🦻

Oh yeah! You'll enjoy them!

You are clearly delusional. Try finding a Hoka with a straight big toe

No pic no proof, show me actual picture of the insoles - especially in the toe area. No doubt that 4E would be larger in midfoot area, but show that it would still allow for proper alignment of the big toe in the toebox

@@jannplanken you can't post pictures on youtube. 2E hoka is just as wide at the widest point at the ball of the boot. Overall a larger fit than Altra's widest last and Hoka hasn't even been known for wide shoes like say New Balance. The actual difference in the area between the shoes at the toes is negligible, it's just a slightly different shape. The midfoot on the Hoka is however a bit wider and that bit makes a lot of difference for lot hanging off the side of the shoe on the lateral side like the way you see Altras fitting most folks. I wonder if topo has this issue. somehow i bet they dont.

@@user-xf4es7eh9y link an imgur pic or any of the other similar sites. I have no doubt you’re correct about the width at ball of foot part, I’m strictly talking about toes - especially big toe alignment. Even if the ball of foot is wider, then the constant slight angle and pressure to the big toe I belive increases the tendency for bunions. Don’t get me wrong, I would love to be proven wrong, altras are way too expensive for their durability, but I am yet to see a “non goofy shaped” shoe that would allow for the proper alignment of the big toe

I agree I tired whitin amazon ones and vivobarefoot esc magna so from cheap to highend and altra was by far the worst interm of width and quality I returned mine in heartbeat after I tried it. my 10year old sketchers is wider than this. And it's insanely thick it felt like a brick under my feet and I got the higher stack whitin after altra and they fell much better. I am using them for jumping sports e.g volleyball, basketball(don't go jumping in minimal shoes it will break your feet)

I tend to agree, but like you say, there are still options in the Altra lineup. I personally make most of these options work, but still my favourite is the Superior, even though it's shallow. A quick switch of the insoles makes it comfortable for me. Have you tried anything like this? Otherwise, I avoid Topo because of the pronounced arch support. I don't think it belongs in shoes of this kind.

I think this would be a good pairing with the Lone Peak. The Escalante Racer may be a bit firm in comparison. But it's a great training tool either way. I love them.

Which point of the shoe is not wide enough? I find the midfoot to be a bit snug. Just note that measuring via the insoles is not an accurate way of measuring the shoes, as they may use the same insole across different sizes. Maybe as you've found. Personally I've found the Escalante 4, and Escalante Racer 2 to be a very similar width, but with a bit more depth in the toe box. Overall, the sizing is similar, it's the feel where they differ the most. For wider options, I would suggest Bahe Revive, Lems Primal, but these are more minimal than the Escalante, so you'll have to decide if that works for you. I hope that helps!

@@barefootrunreview For me it's the transverse arch / just before the toes start + my pinky really wants freedom. Thanks for the recommendation i will check the Lems, they somehow did not pop up on my radar. I hope it will not be too minimal :) As for the insoles, the length is different, it's the with that was the same. Maybe it changes for other sizes but the width on 10/11 looked the same Thanks for help!

No worries.

the data on that side is widely inaccurate all the time. you really can't trust much of what you read on there. i herd other folks say this and thought they were just being haters, but after doing some research i can see what they mean. the issue is that it's not all wrong, but you just don't know what is and what isnt. so be cautious about it. And yes, different sixes use the same insole, it usualy tells you right on the bottom of the insole which size range it's fot, also these shoes aren' that wide to begin with. Any similar NB in 2E is wider than these in the midfoot and just as wide in the toe. for instance. Even a 2E Hoka, when you compare the insoles, this altra which comes on their widest last, is no wider. actually the hoka had more room inside.

@@user-xf4es7eh9y considering we've mentioned companies use the same insoles in different sizes means we can use insoles to compare the size of shoes as you've found. That being said. I understand what you mean by Altras not being wide. The question is. At what point are the shoes wide. If we're talking about the midfoot, they are not. If we're talking about the forefoot and toe box, then yes they are. A simple visual check will shoe you the difference in toe boxes when comparing with Hoks and New Balance like you mention. And that brings to the point that Foot Shape, does mean wide. It means more room in the toe box, and less taper on either side of the toes. You do not see that in conventional shoes like new balance and hoka. What do you think?

I usually say, any insole that you have hanging around. Most altra insoles are around 4mm thick, which is quite thick for a insole. I use some Xero Shoes insoles normally, and I know you can buy them directly from Xero Shoes if you need them. I hope that helps!

In Altras I often just remove the insole altogether! Not sure if great for the shoe, but has worked great for me.

@@zollox97 interesting. Because most of the foot beds in Altras are a rubberised tacky material, I've never tried them insole-less. I was worried about rubbing. What distances are you running in them?

​@@barefootrunreviewrunrepeat measurements have most of Altra near the 5.5mm mark. That's thick, I tried swapping out my Racer insole for more toe height but the ride changed somewhat with my thin insole from other minimalist shoes

5.5mm! 😮 I've not measured them to be that thick, but they are thicker than most. I have found they, or the midsole doesn't pack out after 50km though, so sometimes it's worth pushing through. But for me. Fit comes first for sure!

The main difference between the Escalante and the Rivera is the fit. The Rivera's more narrow, and "fitted". The upper on the Escalante is more flexible and wider in the toe box. For casual I'd love to recommend minimal shoes. :) but if you still need some cushion, the Escalante 4 is a good choice.

That's great! Glad to be heading it!

At what point are you measuring 11.4cm? Looking at your measurements, you have a similar length to me, but an extra cm on the width which does make your feet relatively wide. I can't imagine many brands working great, sorry. What shoes do you use right now?

@@barefootrunreview thank you for your response. I currently wear RealFoot Natural Runner 2 - it would be dope if you review these! I also wear SoftStar Primal Runamoc. I do have a pair of Altra Escalante Racers in 10.5 that I wear during the winter with a couple of wool socks. I thought since I could wear those, that these would fit pretty well. How does the width for the bahe revive compare with the escalante racers?

@@hood4thought699 realfoot + softstars completely make sense! But I'm surprised by the Escalante Racers. I even find them snug in the midfoot. Still runnable, but not perfect. I would say the Bahe's are wider than Escalante Racers, and for sure deeper.

To counter that argument, I know many people that can't use the Mesa Trail because there's too much depth, and need a shallower shoe (hence the Primus Trail works). We've got to remember there are differently shaped feet and ankles out there, and that may even change over time (as we build foot strength + gain/loose fat). It's all about finding the shoe that fits you right. If that's the Mesa Trail II (like me), awesome! But it may not work for everyone.

20mm seems on the large side, but fit is not all about length. If I were to go on the length only, dropping a size would reduce that 20mm to around 12mm, which sounds better. But if that doesn't fit your width, then it'll never work. My advice would be to order EU42, test it for size, and if you have issues return it for the EU43. Bahe have a 30-day return policy.

That's awesome! I'm glad you like them!

I'm not that great yet. :p One day!

Which Vivobarefoot model do you use?

All super useful things to know. Thanks for sharing!

I can't wait to try them. It just takes a while for things to ship to NZ :)

Agreed. The only one I've found to be deep is the Lone Peak. Ironically that's too deep for me and ends up in a sloppy fit. :)

Thanks for watching!

Yeah, you sure can use them for walking! In fact they're likely a better hiking shoe than a running shoe due to their minimal make up. When you're walking you can be more mindful about foot placement etc.

@@barefootrunreview Thank you. Have ever tried the Scrambler low? What do you think about them?

@@an.20.24 yeah reviewed them over on my website, and I raced a 100km them. They're not as minimal as the Mesa Trail and a lot less flexible. But if you're moving over a longer distance, or if you need more protection, they're a good option. They fit fairly similarly.

@@barefootrunreview Thanks a lot. Considering I usually walk with the Prio from Xero, I think I'm going to buy the Mesa. Thanks.

@@an.20.24 that makes sense to me. You'll like theM I'm sure.

Yeah, they both have their place. The extra protection the Primus Trails provide is nice.

😁 Pretty much the complete opposite to all of my conclusions, but hey, everyones different.

For the first 500km it was 100% trail. Now I don't mind doing "door-to-trail" runs in them, meaning there's some road running but still very little. It always depends on the trails you use them on, some hard packed and rocky trails can be just as hard wearing on shoes as roads can be. But if you're constantly in mud, you'll have a different experience.

Sure thing! I used some old Inov8 insoles I had hanging around. You could also try the Vivo insoles you have already. But if you're looking to buy some, I know Xero Shoes sell their insoles which around around 2-3mm thick. xeroshoes.com/shop/extras/replacement-insoles/

:) there's nuance. Where do you find them narrow?

@@barefootrunreview PINKY TOE

@@zelareka makes sense. If you have a wider little toe splay, it'll cause issues.

@@barefootrunreview no issues with xero though

Awesome. Thanks 😊

All great points! I like revivo, especially when you're trying to find older models that aren't sold any more. I hope the RA III works out for you!