What are GTL base stocks? How do they compare to PAOs and GpIIIs?
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- čas přidán 17. 08. 2021
- GTL base oils (Pure Plus) sits somewhere between Group III mineral oils and PAO synthetic oils; both in terms of performance and method of manufacture. As a cheaper alternative to PAO they have become increasingly popular in engine, hydraulic and turbine oils.
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Ooo, Mr. LE? Are you losing the plot? Aren't G IV PAO's manufactured by GTL process?
Wtf, mate? :(
It is, but PAO uses ethylene gas, not methane gás. This methane is extracted from natural gas or wax as in so called Shell GTL (Group III+).
@@tomasnokechtesledger1786 Mobil invented GTL, before Shell? That was from natural gas.
G IV PAO = Polymerized, Alpha Olefin (Full, natural, HC molecules)
Is Mr LE being sponsored?
@@lesliedsouza4077 Different processes, since PAO don't use Fisher-Tropish, I'm affraid. Mr. LE IS LEGET anyway. He's a great internet asset with an absurd knowledge, we get for free. Let's Be more thankful for him. I learn more from Mr. Le in 6 months that from Mr. Molakule in 16 years on BITOG.
Hi Mr D'Souza. There's a couple of things to tease out in your question. Let's do technical first:
Yes, PAOs are start their life as ethylene, which is a gas. However, "GTL" is a specific industry term for liquids formed from natural gas. As a raw feedstock, ethylene is "purer" than natural gas, which accounts for many of the performance differences between the two, but natural gas is much cheaper, which account for the differences in price. PAO, and especially mPAO is always going to come out on top in pure performance terms, but for price/performance ratio GTL probably has the edge.
Second, let's address the history. The basics of the GTL process were discovered in the 1920s by the two gentlemen that give their names to the Fischer-Tropsch process. However, the process of converting CO and H2 into higher c-number molecules was inefficient (~40%). Several companies did R&D work in the 1980s, specifically around finding catalysts that improved efficiencies up to around 80%. Exxon and Shell seemed to be the frontrunners in these technologies; post-merger ExxonMobil looked at up to 10 sites for GTL plants and from what I understand they settled on one in Qatar. I believe Shell's main GTL plant in Qatar was intended to be a JV between the two, but ExxonMobil backed out to focus their capital in LNG facility investments, which they felt would be more profitable for their natural gas assets. Since then, Shell has built a smaller facility in South East Asia and a few other companies have built smaller ones, but Pearl GTL in Qatar continues to dominate the market.
Thirdly, let's talk about the future of GTL. Building a GTL plant is extremely capital-intensive, and as ExxonMobil showed you have to make a decision between converting gas to liquid products, or building an LNG plant to sell LNG. The economics of both options are very different. If you want to sell GTL lubricant base oils you also need two things: access to a gas field and a base stocks company. This leaves only three players in Shell, ExxonMobil and Chevron. ExxonMobil and Chevron have displayed no interest, so that leaves the GTL market to Shell, who really have no incentive to build new facilities. As the only player, if demand for GTL products increases they can just raise their prices.
Finally, let's talk sponsorships. CZcams is governed by USA consumer law and all sponsored content must be disclosed (you'll often see a "includes paid promotion" watermark on such videos). None of my videos to date have been sponsored, nor is the channel. As much as I would like to earn a little money, I feel there's more value in the channel remaining "brand agnostic" so that the focus is on technologies rather than specific products. For this reason, I have no intention to accept paid sponsorships in future; I might make an exception if a lab or oil testing company approached me just because it would give me access to technical resources that I think would be useful to the audience, but lubricant brands are off the table.
Hope that clears up a few things.
Hi! Thanks for your kind words. To be honest, Mr Molakule is clearly more knowledgable about lubricants and formulations than I am - it's just that the BITOG forum is not the most efficient way to teach. I think that's where it's really the CZcams platform that holds the advantage.
This is the best video treatise on synthetic lubricants I've ever seen. And I'm a retired Mobil Lubrication Engineer. The only question I have is why PAO volatility is rated lower than GTL? Doesn't make intuitive sense to me.
Thanks for the feedback! Funnily enough I'm a former Mobil LE myself. And you're right - intuitively it doesn't make sense - it's just based on some experimental data that I've seen.
Wow, heavy weights oil heada around here...
2 things (I think) would help the general public. 1 a way to find out "what" is in the quart of oil I'm about to buy. Amount of additives, what type of additives, how much additives to base oil (ratio). 2 the micron filter # on each oil filter right on the side of the filter and sq in of filter surface.
Yeah that'd definitely help. The lack of transparency in the industry is a little alarming. We get a full list of ingredients for food we eat - why not lubricants?
Never gonna happen
Great content dude! Your base oils triangle is amazing and very intuitive...
Thanks!
Thanks for this video - I remember when GTL was going to be the next big thing and the hydrocarbon product value spread supported CH4 -> Fuel, especially for stranded conventional natural gas producers. Unfortunately the project management of the Shell GTL plant was bad and the final cost came in around 200% of the estimate and that sort of weighed down other GTL plants. As the years rolled on gas rich regions opted to monetize gas as LNG as that technology was more mature and project execution was more reliable (i.e. final cost = estimated cost). LNG was bankable and GTL was much less bankable. Also back in the day - Exxon had a nifty MTG (Methanol to Gasoline) zeolite based process. I wonder what funky high molecular weight byproducts that process creates?
Looking for more structured lubrication courses? Join LE Pro for $30AUD per month (that's about 20USD). lubrication.expert/product/le-pro/
shell helix ultra prices are very good. that´s the main driver for me.
and i hope it is a bit better than regular dino.
Yeah GTL has a very good price/performance ratio.
Very good
Thanks!
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Thanks!
GTL Group III+ base oils have another performance point vs. PAO.
Better additive package solubility than PAO!
When formulating engine oils with PAO, it typically requires addition of ester or alkylated naphthalenes otherwise the finished blend tends to be slightly hazy and additives have a tendency to want to fall out.
Commercial:
I’ve seen other GTL base oils in the market such as their 7cSt in non-lubricant applications. Shell has a deal with another major ‘competitor’ for product ‘swap’ deal as well. The other major does not market the fact they have a little GTL in their formulas as well.
…there are more advanced GTL base oils coming out soon from a new player. They hope to get to make the announcement before Q1-2022
Yes! Very true, I neglected to mention solubility but you're right. Not needing a co-base is a big advantage.
Would it be too much of a stretch to suggest you might work in the base stock industry? If so, would you like to come on as an interview guest? Or maybe someone you work with?
lubrication.explained@gmail.com
What you think about GTL for GDI engine with turbo charge?
What percentage do GTLs make up in the diesel market? It seems that was the financial incentive for their development (?)
I believe that the percentage is vanishingly small, purely because crude oil refining is cheaper. In certain location like South Africa it makes sense but you need a specific set of conditions to make it work - access to gas but not oil, and a decent diesel market that is far away from most refineries.
could this GTL process include using ethanol or methatnol as the feedstock?
I think technically yes - but there are probably more efficient methods to turn ethanol or methanol into higher MW hydrocarbons.
I thought Iron were used as a catalyst, is that older processes?
From the explanation, I can take some conclusion is GTL base oil more better for oil from crude oil process hydrocrack ? Is that right ?
Is Shell ultra helix 5w30 and 5w40 have 100% Gas ( ie made from 100% gtl or just a blend of gas and crude oil based)??
I believe it’s 100% GTL but I could be wrong.
Napthanic, aromatic and paraffin iWhich base oil has highest flash point?? Pls sir can you give answer
I haven't seen any data personally, but I'd assume Aromatics based on their ring structure and polarity.
GTL,it uses very high pressure to condense gas on the other hand PAO uses low temperature to condense gas.GTL is cost effective.Just visit Boyle's law to understand well.
It raises the question, not begs it. Question begging is a logical fallacy that has zero to do with “RAISING the question.”
Your chart shows that the PAO has a better traction rating. My question is, is the traction the ability of the oil to stick to the metal parts like when not in use? Would that affect/help dry start? (PS, my Org Chem teacher was a baby boomer German and his father owned a big Pharma in Germany and I think his father was a Nazi and boy, did he hate God!)
Just need a lot of renewable electricity powered electrolysis hydrogen, some direct air capture CO2 and voila - lots of carbon neutral oils :)
Keep dreaming, buddy