What Could Go Wrong... DID!! - AirVenture 2023 👎
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- čas přidán 19. 10. 2023
- SO many Pilot Errors Flying the 2023 Arrival - including me!
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This episode covers my #Worst KOSH arrival experience.
There are often #Storms and super high traffic volume…
I’ve flown the Fisk arrival many times over the years, and have always managed to skate through fairly smoothly.
But 2023 was the first time that basically everything went #wrong ; We had to divert due to storms being parked over the entire arrival procedure, then we got spun at Fisk multiple times, had to go around due to a wrong way landing aircraft, and then had to join the holds when the airport was closed - all in, we spent over 2 hours doing what should have taken 25 minutes.
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I am a "weekend warrior" private pilot, I fly for fun with no intentions of going commercial. I have had my PPL for over 15 years, but still consider each flight a learning experience - I generally take detailed notes after each flight to remind myself what went well or what I could do to improve.... Having GoPro cameras to record flights like this is invaluable. I find these self analysis videos very helpful in my constant quest to improve, and am happy to share. Feedback is invited; however, please keep it positive.
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Steve, thank you for deciding to publish this and pointing out the things done wrong (and right). There is a lot that others can learn from here.
Katie usually deals with universe ending catastrophes and handles them with grace, but dealing with minor problems in the approach is a much more stressful environment.
Its a Rare day when Scott Manley comments somewhere and nobody notices for 2 months.
hey its Scott Manley
This is why I prefer the warbird arrival in the 310, when it's less busy. (Note: I went to Idaho instead of OSH this year).
-less cockpit chatter - save the de-brief for later.
-'Go Ugly Early' - beat the rush to divert, rest up and try at a better time.
THANKS FOR POSTING STEVE!
Steve, I’m a controller at the nearby Chicago O’Hare. My coworker is on the committee that puts together the NOTAM for airventure.
No promises, but he said they would look into your recommendations for the goaround procedure. Maybe there is something they can do.
Greatly appreciated man!
I happened to be up there on that Saturday when this occured and was watching and listening to it. Of all the arrival procedures where multiple aircraft having to go around is going to cause a problem if they can't immediately be worked back into the x-wind its probably 18L/R as breaking out to the right causes issues eventually with the flow going into 9/27 and going straight ahead means you have to cross the inbound x-wind 18L/R traffic. Now that I listen to the comms again I wonder if what she really meant (the controller) was "start the Fisk arrival procedure again" not "fly direct back to Fisk and restart from there" ? In any case I think Steve is correct in that in lieu of ATC directions on the go-around "fly the published VFR departure procedure (at or below 1300') and renter the full transition for whatever VFR approach you were flying (Warbird or FISK)".
Way cool…
Pilots and controllers working together to create a solution!
Great input Shane!
😃
I'm not a pilot but do they have a fast and slow approach paths for those not traveling above 100 knots?
@@ChrisLoew They do - for the FISK arrival that Steve was on its 90 knots at 1800’ and if unable (as in that’s too slow for my aircraft) it’s 135 knots at 2300’ over the same arrival route. One issue is there is no minimum speed for FISK - slower aircraft are “encouraged” to arrive when they open at 7am. Warbirds and faster turbine aircraft are asked to use the Warbird Arrival over Fond Du Lac.
I was the pilot for the 172RG that left right before you at Baraboo. It was a hectic arrival for us as well. Once we got on the ground I looked up your track on flight aware and thought it was probably a rough time. Glad you made it though, was great to meet you.
I really like this video. It shows the reality of the approach. This year was my first time and you hear stories, but damn is that hard to describe. Even though this video was probably hard to release, it is awesome that you did. Glad you are a pillar of the GA community.
Thanks!
And yeah - it is ironic that I passed you guys on the way there, only to have to ultimately reposition myself WAAAAAAY back to the end of the line from basically everyone that departed Baraboo... setting up the scenario where I got to go around due to the wrong way landing - at the time I was beside myself... but now I am glad for the experience and that we captured what is safe to say is Osh at its worst. I really hope they can make some adjustments to get ahead of some of these issues in the future. Ignorance is bliss and I'd always known how hard it can get in theory, but I'd never truly experienced it as all of my previous arrivals worked out fairly smoothly.
I like your videos because it shows “regular” reality. Sometimes it’s hard to relate to aviation celebrities editing “perfect” videos. Your content reminds me of my humanity and the pressures aviation can sometimes bring.
I really appreciate this feedback - that’s the goal - I like to share the real experiences and they are never perfect. 👊
Crazy experience, man! We were lucky enough to only get sent back once (ground loop on the runway while we were on base). I totally agree with your proposed addition to the Notice. Fantastic debrief, thanks for sharing with the community. 🤘🏼
Steve did everything the best possible way…
1) Being super prepared in advance is a must.
2) Have a second very capable person up front to share the CRM…
3) Be ready for the unexpected.
4) Have all electronic traffic awareness and situational awareness working.
5) Know how humans can drop a ball, it will happen a lot.
6) Surround yourself with smart/experienced people…. (We met at a MooneySummit!)
7) Continuous improvement…always helps! (This video is big!) 😃
Nice work, thanks for sharing!
FISK is a very active spot, even on a calmer day….
And having sufficient fuel for that! Who knew you'd be attempting that approach for ~2 hours?! Yikes
Honestly.... This is such a breath of fresh air. We all mess up, like royally lmao. Shit happens, even to the best of pilots. Thanks for being transparent and sacrificing your pride to help others learn. fuckin way she goes boys. Way she goes.
I have exactly one Osh Kosh arrival, all the way back in 2000 and got misoriented on turn to final - tried to land on the wrong parallel runway. Corrected to the one they wanted me on at maybe 100' AGL. Not my proudest moment, and definitely fits the "got yelled at" theme. But, landed safely and had an epic time at the event afterwards. Put in my 'stupid pilot tricks' bag of don't lets ever do this again.
I was near you in the Green Lake holding on Saturday! It was my first time on the Fisk arrival, and I was in my recently-completed homebuilt with cooling issues (of course). We had a Cub turn off his xpdr, fly through rain into our holding pattern at Green Lake (after ATC told people that holding was full). He cut between myself and two RVs, and then slowed up to ~75 kts!! I already had a group of 3 Cessnas creeping up behind me and this completely buggered all of us. After I was hanging it on the prop for a couple of minutes, he slowed again to 70 kts(!!) and I finally yelped on the radio as well. It had no effect. I do _not_ understand why so many people were refusing to fly the published speed during the arrival; it was causing a lot of safety issues and folks doing nothing wrong were get booted from the arrival due to lack of spacing.
We got suuuper lucky, the awesome ATC folks realized they could push the RVs *and* the Cub all over to 18 and give enough space for us to land 27 without returning to the Bridge. Up until that moment I was sure they were going to break us out, and with the next wave of storms coming in we would've had to spend the night elsewhere.
What a mess - arrivals during the rest of the show were SO much easier and smoother, I was really jealous of folks that came later in the week! 😀
Yeah that was a tough day - glad you got in!
@@FlightChops - Me, too! Sadly, our trip home took _9_ days and involved a broken engine, _2_ broken Uhaul trucks, the Sturgis motorcycle rally, and other crazy situations... We're curently looking to option the movie rights. 😛 But OSH itself was amazing, and getting to share it with my 75 year-old dad (who took me to so many airshows as a kid) was unforgettable. Hope to catch up with you there next year (safely)!
People don’t fly the published speed because they are tasked with saturated looking put the window for traffic and listening to the frequency. They lose track of their speed. There is no airspace that is more distracting and intimidating than this.
I’ve flown into Oshkosh many times, had a really close call this last time.
So I’m done.
I’ll fly into Green Bay or some other airport and rent a car and drive into Oshkosh.
I was watching your entire arrival on ADS-B and LiveATC, couldn't believe it when the Bonanza landed in the wrong direction and you had to start over again...glad you got in safely eventually!
Appreciated - this was a tough one for sure.
@@FlightChopswe had a Bonanza fly 50ft below us on right downind to 27 screwing up the entire conga line... never saw a plan that close.
Daaaamn. yeah having a plane come at me from below / behind where I can't see them is a nightmare scenario.
@@cariocavfr883 I'm clenching so hard I could crack nuts just reading this. Holy moly. Glad you're all safe.
Been there and knew the guy who was a jinx.@@cariocavfr883
Thank you for sharing Steve, it gives the prople in charge a first hand account of the experience on the arrival.
Between the increasingly hectic arrival and the constant threat of hail warned storms with airplanes outside, flying to OSH is becoming a harder sell than ever.
Did the Fisk Arrival solo in 2017. Since then, I have participated in the Cherokees Mass Arrival which makes for a much smoother arrival. Glad it all worked out.
Would be real interesting to see and hear how the bonanza got themselves into the wrong way landing. It sure messed up your day but it could have been worse. Your co pilot had great eyes for plane spotting!!
Yeah I’m in contact with him, and in the follow up, I might share some more details about that if he is comfortable.
WOW!!! One busy arrival. Thank you for sharing. I agree with your comment that there should be a "how to rejoin" to ensure no conflict with other traffic as everybody is at the same altitude, from what I understand. Good job!
Thanks
I’m stressed just watching this. Well done on keeping it together and flying the plane.
Thanks.
This is the video I've been waiting for since OSH. Great content as always.
Glad you enjoyed it! I usually save my Osh arrival to publish right before the following year... but I have a feeling there will be a relevant follow up to share at that time.
I flew in this year as well. I can relate. It was definitely chaotic. When I flew in on Monday, the visibility was only 3 miles. It was very difficult to maintain a visual on the guy ahead of me. It was an intense experience that I will never forget. I survived and checked it off my bucket list!
Wow, yeah - I've never done it in VFR minimum conditions - that's intense.
And it is somewhere between funny and scary how many people share the same sentiment regarding: "I survived and checked it off my bucket list" when they describe flying into AirVenture.
I appreciate your reply. I totally agree with you about the lack of a go-around procedure. I was fortunate enough to land on my first attempt without having to go back to the end of the Congo line.
That situation is not good. Super stressful for all involved. I am inclined to agree with your proposal for the go around procedure though, but I also completely understand the "we can't know every situation" position. Sounds like a good brief for the ATC team include a little more detail on their requests (though admittedly they are focused on avoiding an immediate situation and less the trickle down impacts, but also I feel it would be reasonable to include in the event you are sent back to Fisk utilize the Fisk departure procedure. That said I would also argue that should have been the standard response for pilots to go oh fly the departure to avoid the oncoming arrivals, but it's not briefed if it's not a part of the brief (I know sounds weird but I think you get my point) and chaos is not the best time to think those things through with a clear desk chair clarity.
Excellent flying Steve and another wonderful debrief. I appreciate all of what you do for the advancement of aviation safety and education!
I got to talk to you a bit at Air Venture and you definitely weren't thrilled about this arrival and now I see very clearly all the reasons why. Thank you for sharing this and being humble and learning. You're a great example to follow.
Phew! That can be a very hairy business getting into Osh' and this time for sure was pretty tense -
That's a lot of way points. ... ATC was beyond frenetic! Very useful having an extra pair of eyes with Katie. I expect your heart rate and BP went off the clock at times. Great recount of it all Steve.
Bonus meeting Mike Goulian - he did much in the era with Kirby Chambliss in the Red Bull championships - very demanding precision flying.
That is the Best Osh arrival video I’ve ever seen. Great job keeping your composure. Would Love to meet you sometime. I’m a low hour pilot with a C170 so I flew in early early Friday morning. No Traffic.
Glad you enjoyed it - My aim with this one was to share it as raw as possible to show what if *can* be like when several sub optimal things stack-up.
wow, that is In-Sane! When we attended KOSH in 2021, we flew to Green Bay WI instead, and rented a car.
Love your humility
Wow what a crazy ride! Thanks for bringing us along, and great debrief. Hopefully your recommendation can be looked at for next year.
Wow that was crazy! Great video! A lot of good info in there for those going into Airventure in future years!
Back in 1988 I arrived at OSH during the airshow IFR flying a Piper Navajo. I didn't have the trouble you had but it was very hairy indeed...........
Bless your souls, that looks so stressful...
Awesome video, Steve! Thanks for sharing your experience. You must have felt relieved and drained after landing !
that was stressful....just too busy combined with bad weather.
Yeah - It's best to avoid that sort of combination if you can.
I had to do a go around in 2022 due to the guy in front of me landing on my spot on 36 and taking up residence. Controller said “turn right before the tower and come right back round for a right downwind for 36. Maintain 1300 ft and enter a right base for 36.” This year was crazy. I usually volunteer as a marshal/greeter and arrive on Saturday morning. This year was Monday. Departure was a mess on Thursday morning. We taxied for three hours from 0800 to 1115 and from the south end of the south 40 to depart in 27 left. OUT OF CONTROL!
Steve you nailed it in your comments. Back to Fisk was confusing. We heard this the next day as well when we flew in (to other AC). Glad we did not have to overshoot, we would have done the same thing as you did.
Appreciated. I'm hoping we can get that issue tweaked for next year.
Wow what an awesome video. My father flys a RV-6A and loves it. Yours is such a beautiful plane. After watching many of these air adventure videos, it amazes me there aren't more mid airs at these events. The controllers and pilots have to be rock solid during all of this confusion.
This is incredible, I can feel the stress! Many lessons learned, thank you for sharing!
Love Katie and her work, love it when two great minds get together in flight too!
As much as I enjoy airventure, it just isn't worth it anymore to fly in. A disaster is pending, I don't want any part of it. It's a shame, the people involved do an excellent job minimizing the risk.
Damn I woulda bugged outta there. Insanity. Well done hanging with it.
Amazing airmanship sky chops. What a pleasure to watch.
Thanks - I'm impressed you found this one a pleasure to watch 😂.
I found it painful to review while editing. 😬
Thanks for the informative video, Steve! I agree that the go-around instructions were completely messed up, actually dangerous. Lack of go-around in the procedure is a huge oversight -- the fact that every year I read the NOTAM and don't even consider it as an eventuality indicates how big of a problem it is. This video make me absoutely flustered and irate about the whole situation.
This is why you don’t want to fly into OSH solo… good job… and you should really push for the NOTAM addition. That’s a great idea.
Thank you for your honest debrief. Even if procedures are defined the issue with congestion is you need to be able to communicate. This is what makes OSH complicated. Only the controller can talk and it’s hard for them.
Glad to share.
I was standing by the runway half watching arrivals and chatting with viewers... had to look up when I heard ATC yelling over the loudspeakers.
I said outloud "Isn't that Steve?"
yuuuuup.
He is now "Notorious Steve" LOL!
The arrival into airventure this year definitely felt a lot more chaotic. I flew in on Sunday and spent nearly 3 hours in the pattern with three full go arounds from fisk back to endeavor, with what felt like everything going wrong lol. Unknown runway closures, a gear up landing on 27, people being unable to fly 90 knots for more than 15 minutes, definitely an interesting experience to say the least. But I also am not sure how they would change it to make it better..
Thank you for posting this. I had a similar situation on Thursday this year. We started at endeavor and endeavor was chaos. At the last second, while on base for 18, around 730pm, we got kicked out by tower due to departing traffic. We also had to find our own way back to the conga line. Since it was late, ATC had everyone do 1/2 mile trail. At the end, I think we were in the last 10 planes.
I agree, I’m also torn about doing the Fisk arrival in the future. This is my 3rd time and it was definitely more chaotic than the prior two times arriving by air.
I hope you don't mind a critique; the time for discussion, regarding the wrong way aircraft, is after you land and not when you're trying to figure out where you need to go. This is the time for a completely sterile flight deck. I'm not saying I could do better just that it's something I noticed and is a point of concern. Thank you for sharing, I have to agree with you that it really doesn't look like flying into Oshkosh is worth the stress.
Your feedback is legit.
That said, I am identifying the problem here, which was that we didn’t have a briefed plan to execute… so we were improvising the departure / get back to Fisk instruction, which was falling apart in real-time as it became clear that it was untenable - so I wanted to share it as it went. I plan to never be in that position again, and hopefully help others avoid finding themselves caught off guard like that.
@@FlightChopsOshkosh is a 100% unsafe disaster-has been for years. Is what you get out of it worth losing your life in some completely avoidable accident? Literally everything about the arrivals system goes against every aviation safety concept. It’s nothing but a bunch of cowboyism and pressing of luck. People die every year and they just continue doing it, how many fatals does it take to declare something too stupid to continue? Honest question.
@@kv501I have mixed feelings about it for sure, but my understanding is there’s never actually been a mid air during the arrival procedure - all the accidents have been ground ops related and / or during flights to and from the event that were operating outside the arrival - is that not correct?
@@FlightChops To be honest it doesn’t matter. That event has a death quota. Aviation is supposed to be centered around safety above any and all other priorities, and what you’re doing isn’t safe when you fly into that place. Completely task saturated, completely disorganized ATC and pilots in the air-you’re quite literally doing all the things your training should have told you to avoid at all costs. Just to attend a trade show that outgrew its capacity decades ago and get some film for a CZcams video.
Thanks for the video. When I flew there (many years ago as a new pilot) I planned to arrive early when it was not so busy. Just like trying to get somewhere during rush hour. Unexpected breakdowns happen and make the drive more frustrating.
Wow. Oy. I talked to you about this a couple of times at the event (and helped push your plane). And while I was following your radar track, now I see the depth of the frustration you were obviously feeling.
I agree about about your suggested addition to the NOTICE; basically having notation that if you don't get clear instructions, to execute the departure for that runway (and I think your suggestion is good for ALL pilots, to have it briefed in your head in case this happens).
I ALSO think that "go back to Fisk" was not a useful instruction in that moment. I might go so far as to say that the training in the future should include to NOT say that. And possibly another good addition to the notice would be that if a controller slips up and says "go back to fisk", that should be read "exit the area and rejoin the VFR arrival" or, as you stated, more specifically, "execute the departure, once clear, you may restart the VFR arrival from the current start point".
Oof. That was scary and intense and annoying. I should have at least brought waters to you two.
And yeah, I agree with your goal of not arriving when it's busy, but *usually* Saturday's not that bad. The really really bad year that prompted them to create the multi-segment arrival was (I think) 2019. That year the weather was dodgy Friday and Saturday and a lot of Sunday morning, so there was an explosion of arrivals early Sunday afternoon and the holds were multiple aircraft deep. One thing that helps is to stay the night somewhere close and fly in first thing in the morning. Traffic is usually pretty light until mid or late morning, even on busy days.
Thanks for posting. A lot of people (controllers too) had it all hanging out on this one. Good flying, good CRM. Thanks for posting, and I'm glad no one got hurt. Keep it up, and I hope you see you again next year!
Thanks for sharing the detailed insights, and for helping with the plane! We weee ok for water as some one else that saw the chaos was actually there to hand us a couple bottles when we popped the canopy after shut down :)
There is no reason they couldn’t schedule arrivals with a phone app, departing the hold point at a certain time.
@@atg197 It would be interesting to see someone think through the implications of such a scheme. I don't think it would work.
@@fsodnagreed. Seems improbable. But they already do scheduled arrivals for many types.
Wow! That was a bit too much. Great that you had Katie along to help you out.
Wow this is crazy. I arrived that morning and it was nothing like this. I later heard about the wrong-way Bonanza as I was sitting on the flight line watching landings; it’s nuts that you were right there and had to go around because of it. Glad you both are safe!
Thanks yeah, I try to make it in one day from Toronto, but that means an afternoon arrival. It would be nice to try flying the arrival first thing in the morning to avoid the inevitable storms and traffic density.
@@FlightChops If you want to stop at PTK next year before heading to OSH, I'll have an empty hangar for you. ;)
You got hosed and EAA needs to hear about 5x5! In that situation the incoming Eastbound traffic should have been told to turn right (South) and They go back to Fisk, Not the group told to go around. There would be far fewer chances of conflict with that procedure. What happens in this scenario: You get kicked out of line at Fisk two or there times, burning fuel for two hours. Then you make it to final only to be kicked out by the Tower? Now you're potentially in a fuel emergency situation. How will they make room for you then? Some other poor saps get thrown out of line? And what if the airport closes before your able to get the clearance from Fisk? Something has to be done.
Thanks man, but honestly, there's no rejoining at Fisk for anyone... when it is busy, you have to either be already in the line spaced well, or you're out , and you have to go back to the current active waypoint to restart. There are more than 50 miles of airplanes lined up and spaced out either half or one mile apart between Fisk and Endeavour when it is busy like that.
I think I know why my grandfather flew us into Racine and drove with my uncle the one time I've been to Oshkosh.
Haha - yup. 😬😂
What a mess. Thanks for sharing Steve!
Being in that left seat would have been an absolute nightmare for me. I trust my flying skills, I trust my navigation skills, I trust my communication skills. But being in such a confusing and hazardous environment for such a long time with so many opportunities to doubt my own decisions... Ugh.
It's normally somewhat tense, but this was off the scale for sure.
@@FlightChops - you handled it a lot better than I would have as well. Not for me, this arrival. I know myself that well at least. Glad you made it in the end.
Well, I appear in a FlightChops video (in the background of B roll) the same week I start checking boxes with my instructor to start flying, nice little coincidence. Thanks for the inspiration and thanks for the lessons, I plan to continue learning everything I can from as many sources as possible. Your candid reviews of your own performance make your videos a good place to look. Thanks Steve, keep being awesome.
Haha - right on! Get after it and report back through your training!
@@FlightChops Will do.
What a mess. Thanks for sharing Steve!
Hopefully the EAA will use your proposed NOTAM.
Thanks for sharing!
You bet!
5:53 Big respect.
👊
thanks,, appreciate the raw facts. well done
No problem 👍
Wowsers……busy busy busy. Verging on dangerous….glad you kept it together and got there in the end.
What. A. Cluster. I feel so blessed having two smooth OSH arrivals in a row, but that's the advantage of a Friday arrival. And I understand your reluctance to risk another OSH arrival. You can guess my mixed reaction... I'd feel the same way as you, but now another OSH arrival will never happen for me. And that's ok. So yeah. We all have to count our blessings, whichever way they point. And if you do go next year, let me know if you need a spotter... ;)
wow, good job on bailing on the first pass, yikes on hanging it off the prop to be behind, and everything else. I need AstroKatie with me.
👍
I think it might be time to implement required online Special Awareness Training (like Hudson River Exclusion) for aircraft doing the Fisk arrival. Too many people are not preparing ahead.
Steve, I flew in Monday after being stranded at KMYJ with a dead magneto (video out soon). I was MVFR at best but after the rock it was just smooth sailing. ADS-B IN to foreflight was a game changer. I can't wait to do it again next year.
Looking forward to flying to OSH for the first time next year. Planning to arrive in June.
😂👍
luv honest open vids :) ❤ real people doing stuff 😂
I can try to imagine how I'd have done in that mess. Not fun, and one never wants to upset ATC so I feel for you. That was trial by fire and I bet if there were ever another similar situation you'd handle it differently and better. A great video, thanks Steve!
Thanks - and I appreciate your being such a long time community member and supporter!
Oh man! I felt task saturated just watching this! All in all good job on dealing with a tough situation.
Thanks, and yeah - it was nuts.
My wife and I were in the photographer's view stand watching aircraft landing on 18 from a base leg abeam the tower when that Bonanza came swooping from the right and against all traffic. ATC ws on the PA system with the "go around" commands to all pilots. She did a great job with the urgency in her voice. Hard to believe a trained pilot can manage to pull that off thinking he has the right of way.
With Juan Browne and you saying it is difficult, I am not sure I want to go in my plane. It is only a days drive with my RV horse trailer. I get a stove, soft bed and AC.
What you did scared me, I am not sure I could do that.
I have had to do two go arounds at OSH two different years and also divert for a plane that crashed on short final in front of me. Two out of the three times ATC did a good job telling us what to do immediately. During the crash event they just said the airport was closed and to go away and either hold or divert. It was a crazy experience as well. I feel for you.
This is exactly why I haven't flown in air venture yet. Awesome video Steve
Thanks 👍
I think the EAA really need to take stock, this year was a big warning, they are going to have a big one unless things change.
Agreed, I’m hoping to do a follow up to address any changes that might get implemented next year.
As a [process] engineer watching these arrivals over the years, I cringe at these holds. I'm kinda shocked they allow it. This is not a new thought for me. I'm always amazed there's no midairs, thank goodness
I've done similar in 2016, 2018, 2019, and this past year. Show up with lots of fuel, and patience. The NOTICE really needs to have a slow lane arrival for those people who cannot do 90 knots.
Steve just landed for next years osh ;).
And starting for anything, tired and stressed, is no good.
That was a showcase of radio comms going down the crapper, "go east" "yellow wing passing this that". All vague instructions did not help one bit.
Nice work flying through the unplanned events Steve. I have flown into Sun n fun many times, but recently I have been thinking twice about it. It’s usually easy but can turn south (pun intended) pretty quick
Appreciated.
Great video, your video brings back great memories of that day. We were fortunately put in the first hold after the Bonanza incident and only went one lap. I think the worst part was the fact that so many just could not fly the right speed. 90kts, I can’t figure out why so many just can’t do it in airplanes perfectly capable. We got down to low 70s for much of the arrival. We had a Cirrus looking like it was stalling with a wing tip drop several times in front of us! Crazy times.
Yeah that's scary - a Cirrus going low 70s is way not cool. They should have bailed instead of tried to stay in it at that speed. Yikes.
I flew in Sunday, same story. 4 attempts to get in. 75% problem was aircraft not doing (or able) 90 kts. Of course, they
have just the same right to arrive, but there NEEDs to be a specific procedure for slower aircraft.
Wow - even on Sunday, eh?
And agreed that slower aircraft have the right to go, but they have to understand what it does to bunch up the entire arrival conga line when they park on it at 75 during peak times.
The NOTAM does suggest arriving super early to avoid the busy times if you're slow.
We arrived right around when you did and were in much the same situation, flying a comanche 250 with all cylinders redlining on the 90 knot approach.
We were 5 seconds from calling it and going back around when we got the call to rock wings.
Imagine factoring three more things into this mess. Single pilot, low fuel and having to go to the restroom. This whole problem can be avoided by getting to Fisk when it opens at 7am.
Good points.
In my case though, it is not practical to plan for a dawn arrival window.
I fly from juuust far enough away that it can be done in one travel day...
But it means an afternoon final leg for the arrival is unavoidable; So for me, it is what it is.
Been waiting for this for a while, excited to finally see this.
Lemme know whatcha thought of how it went. 😬
@@FlightChops First off, REALLY proud of you breaking off of the conga line when you found out that you had mixed up some spacing at the entry. Everything works so much better when people work together like that rather than try to force issues. Circling back around was a great call. But, wow, this has to be pretty much the most chaotic Fisk arrival videos.
REALLY glad you covered both the go around issues and the cut back to the discussion on that in 2022. Having flown the Fisk arrival a go-around was always an assumption that I would re-enter the pattern again. We didn't brief being kicked back out to the start of the Fisk arrival and would have been equally confused about the procedure. Definitely a very chaotic situation and I agree with your proposed addition to the NOTAM.
I don't believe that controller calling you out actually made things safer. Them calling you out by tail number and telling you to turn Southbound just made things worse IMO. But thanks for including that; I really appreciate learning from this situation because I agree that I would have been just making stuff up as I went along like you did.
Totally agree with not wanting to do that again. I don't mind the Fisk arrival but I do mind it being this chaotic. At peak traffic it's just too dang busy and your videos shows how one upset just ripples through the whole thing. I'm a big fan of arrive early and leave early or leave late. Peak times there is just too much stress and pressure to make it in. Having met you at Oshkosh I know how much effort you put into it and how much it takes out of you to do it. Don't burn yourself out if it's not working out for you.
Glad you didn't drag the guy who landed wrong way through the mud. I imagine he's crucifying himself enough as it is.
Overall, it was fantastic to be on board with you and your discussion of the issues was great combined with seeing your decisions in real time. As always, I learned a lot and enjoyed watching it. I always recommend your videos to my students and I love that you combine engaging content with great teachable moments. Of course, we always want to fly perfect but even flying perfect there's always things to learn. Keep up the great work!
I a little late to watch the video, but wow that’s a teeth grinder. I enjoy your on screen information it makes a little more sense of what is happening but not by much. Kind of seems a little dangerous to me, glad nothing happened with the plane going in the opposite direction. Better luck next year. Safe travels.
Yikes. I thought that flying to Merrill Field and Lake Hood in Anchorage were bad, but that's something. Great video even though slightly stressful to watch. I'd love to go to Oshkosh but I think if I flew down there I'd want to land at another airport and hitchhike to OSH.
Oshkosh looks like a pilots nightmare to.
This last Oshkosh was off. Nothing felt good about it. Our arrival was stressful but not nearly as bad as this. Temperatures were record hot, nothing innovative or interesting from vendors, and overall just a weird Airventure. We left a day early and I don’t think we will be back next year.
Another great learning vid, thank you! +1 on criticising the organisation around this, it’s an air accident waiting to happen.
Jeez! That was mayhem!
Aaaand that's why I'll Drive to Osh! 😮
I experienced a lot of butt pucker just watching this. Information saturation for 2 people. An impossible task for one person.
For all the craziness and near misses during the Fisk arrival going way back over the years to the present, I've not heard of one fixed-wing mid-air. Knock on wood!. The gyrocopter/helicopter mid-air that did occur this year at Air Venture was not related to the arrival.
This is the case as far as I understand.
Unbelievable, sorry for all your arrival problems. I did it 13 times and it's always interesting.
Yeah - I've done it probably 6 or 7 times... but this year was special.
Very challenging! I think it would be a good idea to concentrate on going forward and wait to debrief. Thinking about what had happened could distract about what is happening. I know that would be hard but with so much going on waiting until safely on the ground to debrief could avoid the distraction.
Cool yeah - it's a balance of deciding what to do next based on what had just happened... and then when we were talking about it in more detail after we were OUT of the whole thing and basically cross country flying back to Endeavour to restart - so we had time to kill 🤓🤷🏼♂️🤡
I flew my Mooney into SFO with 400' ceilings but it wasn't even close to as stressful as what you had!
Air Venture is a hot mess. It's a time bomb waiting for the right horrible event to happen. Too many aircraft being shoved into a small airport in a very short time.
I've been waiting for this video, I had a great view form row 67 vintage midfield 36L. I can't believe that bo landed against pattern. A cirrus jockey I expect that from, not a beech aviator. Glad everyone is OK. By the way I highly recommend arriving early. We landed Thursday before the show, and had our choice of runway, the only downside was much of it was not open yet and still being set up. You can talk ground guys in letting you pick your camp site if you smooth talk.
Man, that was stressful...
Done it once, that was enough. Good video
That was intense. Glad you got down safe.
Thanks
Great vid ! Some of the things here are some of the reasons that 310pilot gave it up. Cheers~
I miss Kevins videos.