All the interactions you described in the video are accurate, but Harbinger of the Seas does NOT have a replacement effect. Replacement effects affect events. Dark Depths being a nonbasic land is not an event. Now, it DOES change how nonbasic lands enter the battlefield, but that's a result of rule 611.3c: "Continuous effects that modify characteristics of a permanent do so simultaneously with the permanent entering the battlefield. They don't wait until the permanent is on the battlefield and then change it. ..." This is still completely separate from replacement effects (which are detailed in section 614). EDIT: Also, on the difference between state triggers versus regular triggers: It's the same idea. Most triggered abilities trigger on an event (e.g. something happens, you draw a card, a phase or step begins, the last counter is removed from a permanent, etc.), while state triggers trigger on a game state. For an event, you can ask 'did this just happen?', for a game state you can ask 'is this currently true?'.
CORRECT. This is one thing that, now that I go back, is correct. Where I tripped up is that dark depths "entering with X" is a replacement ability in and of itself I believe. Which means it looks ahead and see that it would enter as an island, thus not triggering. Good catch and correction!
@@TopdeckTech 'Triggering' is terminology only used for triggered abilities, for clarity's sake it's better to use different phrasing when talking about things like replacement effects. I, and I believe many others, tend to say replacement effects and other continuous effects 'apply' or 'are applied'. That aside, yes, "[object(s)] enter(s) the battlefield as/with _" is a template defined in the rules as indicative of a replacement effect. And yes, rule 611.3c I mentioned before makes it so that as it enters the battleifeld, Dark Depths sees that Harbinger of the Seas will apply to it, removing its abilities, and as such also removing the replacement effect that makes it enter with any counters. So in this case, rather than not applying, the effect simply doesn't exist at the time it would be relevant. But technicalities in terminology aside, yeah, your explanation is basically correct there.
On the topic of "state triggers vs normal triggers" I think some of the complexity and timing of state triggers (and just modern design principles) has caused WotC to mostly shift away from using them when possible. I think a lot of them are from the era before a lot of the rules and the stack were as well structured and codified (iirc it was around 6th editions when they made a major effort to clean up the rules?) which meant they had to make older cards be more cohesive with each other and newer cards. It's part of why so many older cards have significant erratas to their Oracle rules text (besides just updated wording).
When the state trigger tries to resolve, it checks the state condition upon resolution: "When Dark Depths has no ice counters on it". Nothing about this etate condition will be affected by the Dark Depths being an island. It will in fact still not have ice counters. The ability not being linked has nothing to do with anything.
Are you referring to the end of the video and wondering why this is a state trigger instead of a regular triggered ability? If so - then what you said is what i assume. Which leads me to wondering why it's a state trigger again lol
@@TopdeckTech It is a state trigger because the condition refers to a game state and not an action. Why was it templated that way? Perhaps because its an old card and the idea of it entering without counters wasn't much of a concern at the time. State triggers aren't very common and mostly used to ensure something happens in a given state regardless of how you got to that state.
Trigger conditions aren't checked on resolution, not even state triggers. You're confusing this with the intervening if clause, which is something else entirely. Also, Dark Depths doesn't even have any linked abilities.
@@Felixr2 You are absolutely right. I didn't take a closer look at 603.4 when it was pulled up on screen and just assumed it was related to the topic at hand. That's why you don't assume
The Dark Depths last ability is a state based triggered ability so the ability would go on the stack once the condition was met. You still finish resolving ephemerate while the trigger is on the stack. The game will now try to resolve the trigger (obviously assuming no one does anything else with priority) and will Sacrifice the Dark Depths and make you the token
Close, but while Dark Depths triggers during Ephemerate's resolution, you won't actually put it onto the stack into after. If you had a Soul Warden you could stack the trigger from Harbinger entering and the Dark Depths sacrifice trigger in whichever way you want because while the Dark Depths triggers first, you put them onto the stack before a player receives priority after Ephemerate resolves.
@@seandun7083 I know why I thought this now. After reading through the cr I was thinking of how casting a spell during resolution works not a triggered ability waiting for resolution as I didn't realize they wouldn't/don't just work the same. Not sure why they made casting during a resolution enter the stack immediately instead of also waiting on priority like these or vice versa. I've never read that part only the casting during resolution part since it was a weird timing thing anyways. Good thing to know for sure that triggers wait for priority before entering the stack
@@TheTotalGinger I guess it's because you need to choose targets on cast, and lots of things that do let you cast something during resolution tell you to do something else if you don't cast it.
@@seandun7083 possibly. My main one I remembered was when you cast Panglacial Wurm from library during the search and it goes on the stack then you finish the search. But I'm sure you're right that a spell could require targets and you would need to pick them when you cast and therefore they need to go on the stack
If Dark Depths weren't a state trigger, it would probably be worded: "When an ice counter is removed from dark depths, if it has no counters on it, sacrifice it and create a marit lage". This would *not* be affected by making it an island, because there's a general rule that when a card named XYZ has XYZ in its rules text it's effectively saying "this permanent/spell", and it's still the same permanent. However, it wouldn't be triggered in the first place in the exact example given, because it hasn't had any ice counters removed because they were never put on! As an example to demonstrate how this *would* work, imagine the above when-removed-if ruling, but it's been played normally and the last ice counter is being removed. The trigger goes on the stack. Now let's say the opponent controls Teferi, Time Raveler and flashes in a Blood Moon. What happens? The answer is the trigger resolves and works as normal! Dark Depths doesn't have its ability anymore now that it's a mountain, but this doesn't matter because the trigger was already on the stack. It still refers to the same permanent, and that permanent still has no ice counters on it. Another important detail: What if the opponent cast Ephemerate on Dark Depths in response to the trigger? In this case, for the actual card, the triggered ability still goes off and says to sacrifice it, however, since the card has left and re-entered the battlefield, it's considered a different permanent from the one the trigger says to sacrifice, and the "if you do" clause never triggers. However, for the imaginary nonstatebased version, it actually still goes off in full! The trigger checks to see if there are any counters on Dark Depths, but this is looking at the attributes of the permanent that left the battlefield. Since the permanent no longer exists, the trigger "sees" the attributes said permanent had when it left -- which includes zero ice counters, even if the *card* dark depths has re-entered the battlefield with a full complement of ten. This also means you don't have to sacrifice it, so you could get another marit lage later!
So wild thought but even though dark depths is an island when the trigger resolves, it still has no counters on it and the 'dark depths' in the trigger is actually just a shortcut for 'this card' so the trigger conditions are still met changing the name of a card does not break the abilities of the card that reference the old card name
@@TopdeckTechI also just learned this rule recently when looking at an Agatha of the Vile Cauldron deck using Agatha’s Soul Cauldron. Say you exile Kami of Whispered Hopes from the GY with the Cauldron, giving your creatures with +1/+1 counters that ability to tap for mana. They don’t care about the Kami anymore, they each tap for their own power. Which, might I say, is busted
4:49 i believe that, if it were a triggered ability, and it had to Confirm the trigger, the game would look at the Dark Depths, and see that it has no ice counters, so it should be legal. I believe this is possible even if the dark depths is an island, because it's the same object as when the initial effect was triggered. Even if you change it's types, the Dark Depths is still the same Dark Depths with No Ice Counters. When it entered the battlefield, it was a Dark Depths with No Abilities. If you had a card preventing you from playing a Dark Depths, you wouldnt be able to play it as a land for turn, even if it would enter as an island.
Dark depth state trigger is when this has no ice counters confirming the check... as a state based triggered effect, it gets thrown out into space till resolution of the flicker. After the trigger goes into a full on triggered ability the sac ability changes to "sacrifice (this card)" as the land name changed. The triggered ability would resolve in its entirety. That is how a head judge described the same interaction when I flickered my opponents blood moon with my depths out
@@jollyreaper7914 Yes, i believe if we understand the effect as a "this land" instead of "Dark Depths" is much easier to understand that an Island is still the dark depths with a different name. I believe they made this template change in foundations, with the Vengeful Bloodwitch.
I didn't know the ruling here at all until i read the answer from a judge and then read the rules. I still have tons of questions about why state-triggers really exist, but that's a different video lol! Thank you for your time and being here!
Yep! Players dont know what they don't know. Regardless of your deck and playstyle preference, rules like this get weird and complex real fast so Im glad we could help people
@TopdeckTech I also grew up playing the game so some of these things came naturally, not to mention I grew up with my parents running the LGS and they knew I knew enough to become a level 0 judge
As someone who plays a lot of Omo, Queen of Vesuva in EDH and is new to the game, thank you. These game state events are a huge part of my deck, and learning to resolve them is hard without research.
Hi topdeck, two things To answer your main question at 4:15, the rules you're showing on screen are about "intervening if clauses". These are always written as "when [event], if [gamestate], [effect]", and the commas do matter. Dark Depths' trigger does not have such a clause, and therefore doesn't re-check anything at all when it goes to resolve. 0:40 Harbinger's ability is not a replacement effect. Replacement effects replace events with other events. This ability is a type-changing static ability acting on layer 4 (CR 613.1d). The rule that removes abilities from lands that are under a Blood Moon effect is CR 305.7. The confusion may come from the fact that "enters the battlefield with counters" IS a replacement effect, replacing the event of ETBing with the event of ETBing counterladenly. This part's weird, hold on tight, replacement effects regarding ETBing aren't looking into the past or the future, they're looking at the present FROM the future. “ETBs with counters” is an ability of Dark Depths the land on the field, not Dark Depths the card in your hand. Because Dark Depth will have no abilities when it's finished entering, no event replacement will happen. This is exactly the same as not getting counters on your Murktide when Dress Down is out. Welcome to the content game, I like your visual style and I'm sure there's great work to come from you. Throughout watching your short and this full video, right up until the 4 min mark, you presented yourself as an expert who has the information and is leading the viewer into it. At the end, you reveal that this is a question you're still trying to crack and only have maybe three quarters of a grip on. I felt this was dishonest. I appreciate the enthusiasm and polish, but I feel that some steps were skipped, and I worry that there is now misinformation in such trustworthy-looking content. Sorry to drag you bud but like buddy.
Hey hey! Yes! Someone else has corrected me on this not being a replacement effect in which I stated that where I got my information crossed was that Dark Depths enters "with" - which is in and of itself a replacement effect. When scripting, I got these interactions quite confused with Harbinger. But hey no biggie! The one thing I don't want to do is for people to feel like I am infallible and can't be corrected. I think that it is the most responsible thing that I can do to say "there are still things I dont have a full grasp on and am still learning." While you may feel like steps were skipped, I did lots of research before hand - days worth - and still missed a bit! It happens! What's more important is for me to learn from that. When making content, failing publicly is bound to happen. Especially when I haven't been playing the game for decades. We're all learning together here. FWIW, you're not dragging me. I think there is a chance that you assumed some things of my character that are not true - but you responded and redirected in a polite and respectful way. No hard feelings on my end!
Maybe I’m oversimplifying it, but I think you can determine that it has a state-based trigger because the trigger is checking a state, rather than an event that happens on the stack. Things like number of cards in your hand, number if counters on a card, etc. just exist as facts about the current game and so I would assume any triggers are activated the moment that state meets the conditions.
State triggers exist because they bypass cards like Stifle. Which provides an answer for Dark Depths in particular because Voidslime was in the next block and they probably didn't want a case where someone put 30 mana and a land drop into something without having a chance to protect it.
Dark depths is an interesting card it has both requires and makes you think you have a choice but because it’s a required state based action that does not go on the stack the text is executed as you read it when depths has 0 counters on it sacrifice it, the if you do part is misleading thinking you have a choice if you did have a choice it would read “if depths has 0 counters you may sacrifice it” so in short depths would come in as an island named dark depths then as the replacement effect is flickered out the depths returns to normal and is sacrificed to create the creature it does use the stack ( you could flicker the depths while it’s on the stack to create a new depths ) To prevent this the correct play would be respond to the flicker effect and stop the spell or destroy the land in response or just let it happen and destroy the liege lol
I think that if you somehow added one or more ice counters onto Dark Depths after its ability triggered that then upon resolution, it would not let you sacrifice it; it would just do nothing. It's looking for a specific game state for it to trigger, and upon resolution, even though your land named Dark Depths no longer has the ability (as it's an island), it also still has no ice counters.
Adding ice counters after the ability has triggered won't stop it. Having no ice counters is only the trigger condition so it's not checked on resolution.
It does make sense if you think of it as once the blink resolves as it leaves a new stack would take priority being dark depths which sacs itself and then the blink continues
Keep in mind that the Dark Depths triggers while the Harbinger is gone, but the trigger won't actually go onto the stack until after Ephemerate resolves. If it had targets you would choose those as you put it on the stack as well as choosing the order between it and anything else that triggered during Ephemerate's resolution. Once it's on the stack, everyone will still have a chance to respond before it resolves and makes the token.
Harbinger’s ability is not a replacement effect, but on the gatherer official Magic website under Harbinger’s ruling it does state that lands that have ETBs lose their ETBs, so therefore the interaction you presented is correct.
The only thing is that dark depths enters with ice counters, transforming it into an island is not exiling it destroying it or anything, so it shoul still keep the counters, for example a 1/1 with +10/+10 gets transformed by oko into a 3/3 doesnt make it lose its counters
In this case, it has a replacement effect. The replacement effect is entering “with” ice counters. Turning into an island means it has no replacement effects or abilities and therefore no counters
@@TopdeckTech it replaces dark dephts being a nonbasic land, but if it doesnt say remove counters they wont be removed, because having counters is not an ability of the land, the land adds its counters as an ability, the way that this could work is if harbinger was in the battlefield and then dark depths etb, but otherwise it keeps its counters cause having counters is not an ability
@@zerokj810in blood moon’s ruling - “If a nonbasic land has an ability that causes it to enter the battlefield tapped, it will lose that ability before it can apply. The same is also true of any other abilities that modify how a land enters the battlefield or apply "as" a land enters the battlefield, such as the first ability of Cavern of Souls.”
I would love a video on how if you blink an aura you can attach it to any legal target, for instance if i attack with Phelia Exuberant Shepherd exile my darksteel mutation, when it comes back I can safely put it on any creature even creatures with ward shroud and hexproof, also maybe Protection from white although I am unsure about that 1
@@seandun7083 I get that but because darksteel mutation removes the abilities of the card I don't know if it still has protection in time to get rid of darksteel mutation
@@Eruvnalohh. I believe these two rules mean you can't choose to attach it in the first place. 303.4f: If an Aura is entering the battlefield under a player's control by any means other than by resolving as an Aura spell, and the effect putting it onto the battlefield doesn't specify the object or player the Aura will enchant, that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the battlefield. The player must choose a legal object or player according to the Aura's enchant ability and any other applicable effects. 702.16c: A permanent or player with protection can't be enchanted by Auras that have the stated quality. Such Auras attached to the permanent or player with protection will be put into their owners' graveyards as a state-based action. (See rule 704, "State-Based Actions.")
Huh, I thought state triggers were limited to game fuctions, like why turning Urza's Saga into a Mountain or Island causes it to immediately be sacrificed due to it remaining a Saga and having more Lore counters than Chapters
That would be state based actions! State based actions happen anytime someone would get priority and do things like send creatures with 0 toughness to the grave, remove tokens from the grave or destroy sagas like how you describe!
Yooo, siiick editing on the cards morphing into each other! For your question, you can tell when something is a state trigger if the conditions that would cause it to trigger can only be fulfilled by the gamestate itself. E.g. Dark Depths reads "When Dark Depths has no ice counters on it [...]" and that condition has to be tied to the gamestate, because there's no part of the condition that ties it to any specifc event. Since the ability just sits there waiting for itself to be true, it has to apply to [be checked by] the gamestate.
Hey hey! Thanks for coming through and thanks for the info. I think when analyzing it, it feels like all triggers are waiting on the gamestate to match the trigger condition. Perhaps it has something to do with the card having a verb or executing an action. Example: "When (card) enters the battlefield" Example: "When (card) attacks"
It's hard to convey semantically, but the difference between a triggered ability and a state-trigger is that a triggered ability happens when an event occurs, while a state-trigger happens when a set of conditions is met. In a certain sense, yes, something like "when another land enters the battlefield" requires that the gamestate notice the event happened, but because that noticing was triggered by the event taking place, it's a triggered ability, vs. something like "when you control seven or more permanents" is a state-trigger, because the condition of that text being true isn't tied to the ETB of the 7th permanent, it's just a set of conditions that become true when that happens. So it's really anytime there's rules text on a card that defines a set of conditions that aren't attached to an event, then it must be a state-trigger.
Also, tangentially related to this convo, but the last time I was super nerdy about Magic's rules was when combat damage was put on the stack and unspent mana in your pool would burn your life total, so I'm relearning right along with ya!
Do Blightsteel Colossus/Nexus of Fate vs Ashiok Dream, Render's -1 ability please. I've had more than one heated discussion over this and it's relevant to a deck I run.
Blightsteel colossus never hits your graveyard. It says shuffle it into your library INSTEAD. It replaces it going into the graveyard. It can't be exiled from your graveyard if it was never in there. Exact same thing with nexus of fate. The word Instead means it never actually hits the graveyard. Another example, if you have something that says, whenever a creature you control dies, do X. Blightsteel dying would NOT trigger it because he doesn't actually touch the graveyard.
@@C0medySeniorz Ok then what's the proper action when someone uses Ashiok's -1 Mill 4 then exile the graveyard. If the Blightsteel is the 3rd card being milled do you shuffle it in and then mill another. If it doesn't touch the gy where does it go while the rest of the ability resolves?? That's what's confusing me, because I've always been under the impression nothing can else can happen when a spell or ability is resolving.
@@CharlesLeeRay812 Replacement effects change the game actions happening instead of triggered abilities, which respond to game actions happening. So, what happens is Ashiok's ability assigns the top 4 cards to be milled, then attempts to place them all in at once ('Mill X' is not treated like 'Draw X'). Blightsteel Colossus' replacement effect then forces it back into the deck because it changes the attempt to put it into the graveyard into an instruction to shuffle it into the deck. Then Ashiok's ability exiles the graveyard. Short version: Blightsteel Colossus changes the 'Mill 4' part of the effect to 'take the top 4 cards of the deck. Put the other three into the graveyard, shuffle Blightsteel Colossus into the deck'. This contrasts with Worldspine Wurm, where it goes to the graveyard, doesn't like the headstones and attempts to trigger, but can't do so until Ashiok is fully resolved (and then fizzles because it's not in the proper location anymore).
I think ill make a video over this interaction because it's sort of fun and there are some differences between this and Emrakul, The Aeons Torn which says "when" - denoting a triggered ability.
Really liked the format and the video itself, I'm not the best player when it comes to rules and "particular cases" so i very much thank you mate! I'm a 5c chaos edh player so I'm really enjoying this type of content!! Keep up with it mate and thank you ❤
I even messed up the video a bit - so we're all learning here. Im also a visual learner so i have to kind of re-enact a stack to understand. Thanks for the kind words, it means a ton!
The simple way to think about state triggers Vs regular triggers is "would a photo of the board be enough" If you need to tell someone what 'just' happened, it's a normal trigger, but if they can go 'oh, this should happen now' it's a state trigger, e.g. "that saga has too many counters, but it's ability isn't on the stack." State trigger puts it there (and state based actions sacrifice after) but if dark depths said "when the last counter is removed" you'd need to know if that just happened, or if it's had zero counters for a while. This is most prominent with stifle, as Dark depths works, you stifle the stack trigger and end at the same picture as before (zero counters) so the state trigger happens again. But if it was "when the last counter is removed..." Stifle would stop it, and now a picture doesn't tell you did it oose it's counters and get stifled, or did it just loose them. The slightly more technical explanation is that state triggers are looking for a true/false question about what the game state looks like, triggered abilities look for actions and changes, when something happens or someone does something, or something changes state (e.g. dies) Hope that helps
Yeah this helps a lot! The way someone described it that helped is to check the verbiage that was used. If someone or something has to do something - it is a triggered ability. Example "At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter. When the last is removed, you may cast it without paying its mana cost." You are the person removing time counters, and when *you* remove the last one, etc. I think this makes sense for upkeep triggers etc, as the game has to move forward for the thing to happen. Dark depths saying "when no more counters exist on this thing" which has no verbs indicate someone taking an action like, "remove" Im unsure why the concept is so odd for my brain to wrap around, but i appreciate your explanation because that helps too. "Would a photo of the board, with no explanation be enough" Great stuff!
I’ll take my judge certification, please! 🤓 On the final topic about the actual resolution of the effect, it doesn’t matter what the name of the card is in this situation. Dark Depths referring to itself by name is only the game’s way of referring to the card/object. It uses a proper noun instead of a pronoun for clarity. The relevant rule is 201.4. Dark Depths never becomes a different permanent or new instance of itself, so even though it’s just an island with the name “Island”, the trigger still knows what to do and is still valid when it checks again at resolution.
Yeah! I remember this ruling with regards to a card referencing itself - if a card references its name, it really just means “this object” Though it becoming an island doesn’t change the name either. It’s fun to speculate on why it’s a state trigger vs triggered ability and it seems like that just has more to do with the verbiage used, whether intentional or not. “When (permanent) has no more counters (paraphrase)” Vs “When you remove the last counter” Active vs passive or something of that nature
@@TopdeckTechstate triggers trigger as long as a condition is true whereas other ones trigger due to an individual event happening. Removing the last ice counter from Dark Depths isn't something that is true about the game state, it is something that happened. If not for the rule that state triggers can't trigger again until they have left the stack, they would keep triggering infinitely. That still will happen if the trigger doesn't stop the condition from being true (If you animate Dark Depths and equip an Assault Suit to it before removing the last counter, you will keep trying and failing to sacrifice it forever).
The name also never changes. Only the subtype does. 'Harbinger of the Seas doesn't affect names or supertypes. It won't turn any land into a basic land or remove the legendary supertype from a legendary land, and the lands won't be named "Island." '
this is the same as asking if you have a creature on the field that has taken near lethal damage and then you "ephemerate" something like "Benalish Marshal" does the damaged creature die before "Benalish Marshal" re-enters.
Really interesting. I think the key difference is that a creature dying would be due to state based actions, not to a state - trigger. In the example you asked, I believe Benalish would leave and re-enter, but at no point in time are state based actions checked. This is the same as someone casting windfall while you have a body of knowledge on the battlefield. Body of knowledge, for a moment, has 0 toughness, but that is during the spell resolving - in which case state based actions are not checked until after the resolution of the spell, when someone would get priority again.
How is the Felidar Sovereign example not a state trigger? It seems to check for a game state (that of having 40 or more life) rather than an event occuring. Is it only the timing restriction of "at the beginnning of your upkeep" that makes it not a state trigger? If it was worded "whenever you have 40 or more life" would it be a state trigger then? Also, where does it specify that state triggers don't need to check if the condition is still true on resolution? Doesn't 603.4 apply to all triggered abilities, inculding state triggers? Is the state that triggers state triggers not considered a condition being met in the sense of 603.4? 603.8 does refer to the state matching the condition.
Correct. The biggest thing seems to be that it is dependent on an action or movement into a phase. The way it was explained in the comments was "if you take a photo of the board state, is the photo enough for the trigger" For Felidar, a photo of the boardstate isnt enough to denote whether or not youre in your upkeep. Which owuld mean it's a regular trigger. I also try to think of whether or not something has actively happened to trigger an ability. "When the last counter is removed from dark depths" would be a regular trigger versus state trigger because you would actively be removing a thing. Moving into upkeep requires action, even if it is the natural progression of the game. The reasoning here is that state triggers cant reasonably be countered. Because if they are, they just trigger again, since the state is still true. So if dark depths' trigger is countered, it triggers again. But at the beginning of upkeep, phyrexian arena could be countered and then you would move beyond the phase - i believe anyway.
A trigger only checks if the condition is true on resolution if it uses an "Intervening If Clause" which is described in 603.4. Those use a very specific format which Dark Depths doesn't use. They need "[When/whenever/at] [Trigger event], if [condition], [effect]." So, "when X happens, if Y is true, do Z" Dark Depths uses "When [trigger event], Effect." A card that does use an Intervening If is Guardian Project. It triggers when a nontoken creature enters. It's condition is that you don't have anything with the same name on the battlefield or in your graveyard. If someone kills the creature in response to the trigger, then it will see a creature with the same name on your graveyard and do nothing.
Dark Depths abiltiy to enter the battlefield with 10 ice counters occurs before it is a permanent that Harbinger can effect. Its not a 'when this enters the battlefield' its 'this enters the battlefield with'. It occured before it is a permanent.
Replacement effects can actually look into to future to see how a card will look once it is on the battlefield. This is a relatively new rule change (this ruling from Blood Moon was made 2020) "If a nonbasic land has an ability that causes it to enter the battlefield tapped, it will lose that ability before it can apply. The same is also true of any other abilities that modify how a land enters the battlefield or apply "as" a land enters the battlefield, such as the first ability of Cavern of Souls."
Love the interactive short followed by the video 👌🏽 One thing that tripped me up though, is the representation of Dark Depths in the short. There's a difference, in my mind, between a card named Dark Depths that is an Island and just an Island. I suppose it doesn't matter since it's not a regular triggered ability and it can find and sacrifice itself either way. But I guess my main question is, is there an Island named Dark Depths or is there just a regular Island on the board? I don't play with Blood Moon type effects much so I genuinely just don't know. Thank you!
So, with replacement effects, the name of the card isnt replaced, just it's abilities. So technically, it is Dark Depths and has the ability "Tap to add Blue" I couldve definitely used the edited example more to make that clearer but thought that may be confusing. Good note!
@TopdeckTech Good to know! Thank you! It wouldn't have mattered much for me because my brain was stuck on traditional triggered abilities and SBA's, but I'm sure a couple people noticed the same thing, where the whole card changed into an Island and back. Great videos regardless! Keep up the great work! 💙
If dark depths trigger wasnt a state trigger it would trigger infinitly, causing a draw to happen. State striggers wont go on the stack when their trigger condition has been met
Can you explain this thought process because, now knowing the difference between state and regular trigger in it's verbiage, i dont think it would trigger infinitely.
@@TopdeckTech like if you control a dark depth with no counters, it would trigger But then it again is true, so it would go on the stack again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again Same sort of trigger is trancendence that checks for it your life total is 20 or more (what would you cause to lose the game)
I have a really fundamental (n00b??) question here... why do we interpret "Nonbasic lands are Islands" to mean nonbasic Lands have their type set to that of a Basic Land? My initial assumption on reading the text was that nonbasic lands become Islands *in addition* to their types as described on the card.
"nonbasic lands are islands" sets the subtype to only be "Island". It doesn't change the name and it doesn't add "basic" or remove "legendary". Setting the land type does have a special rule that applies when it doesn't use phrasing like "... in addition to its other types" or "it is still a ...". It will also cause the land to lose all abilities other than the "tap: add one blue mana" that is granted from being an island. Note that Harbinger doesn't say "nonbasic lands are islands in addition to their other types" so it will remove all of Dark Depths's abilities.
This is the perfect answer. Sean nailed it. It isn't so much that we are interpreting and so much that the rules explicitly state this on the rules of Harbinger. "Nonbasic lands lose any other land types and abilities they had. They gain the land type Island and gain the ability "Tap: Add Blue.""
This is a great explanation from Sean. I found from experience that casting Spreading Seas targeting Eye of Ugin essentially turns EoU into a “Legendary” Island. Weird.
Looking at the rules on Dark Depths - it is a state trigger. See 704.1a. And triggered abilities are not reliant on state based actions to check for them. State based actions do not interfere with or activate triggers as far as I can find and are not reliant on them. If you find more that can back this up though, Id love to take a look.
"As soon as the game starts matches that condition". State triggers are different than State Based Actions. 603.8: Some triggered abilities trigger when a game state (such as a player controlling no permanents of a particular card type) is true, rather than triggering when an event occurs. These abilities trigger as soon as the game state matches the condition. They'll go onto the stack at the next available opportunity. These are called state triggers. (Note that state triggers aren't the same as state-based actions.) A state-triggered ability doesn't trigger again until the ability has resolved, has been countered, or has otherwise left the stack. Then, if the object with the ability is still in the same zone and the game state still matches its trigger condition, the ability will trigger again.Example: A permanent's ability reads, "Whenever you have no cards in hand, draw a card." If its controller plays the last card from their hand, the ability will trigger once and won't trigger again until it has left the stack. If its controller casts a spell that reads "Discard your hand, then draw that many cards," the ability will trigger during the spell's resolution because the player's hand was momentarily empty.
Good video! However, I think we missed an important part here. Does DD enter with the 10 counters? 😶 Why? (The answer is different from what happened a few years ago!)
@@TopdeckTechsorry, I wanted to say "with no counters", not 10. Indeed it was covered, but it is a whole rules question why it happens that way (not trivial at all to me)
Hey I just fault about ulalek and two echos of eternities Does it go infinite or what is wrong with this combo when you do pay 2 colorless after casting an eldrazi spell And cannot pay 2 colorless also on a later moment as a response on a counter This card combo gave me so much headache and I still try to do a visual map to reconstruct every time it happens but we can't agree on anything and then we all scoop and go next 😅
Is ulalek out first? You would pay 2, get 2 echoes of eternity on the battlefield, but they ETB at the same time, so i dont believe they trigger each other
@@TopdeckTech nah let's start the senario: On field I have ulalek and 2 echos I cast an eldrazi spell I pay 2 Echos triggers Echos triggers Does echos of eternity copy the stack copy ability and then the echos effect? So it endless loops? It's way to confusing maybe worth a video 😅
I think the "if you do" means it is a replacement effect. Which makes me think that echoes wouldn't duplicate the "whenever" opening clause. But i should check. Yeah it seems neat!
Hmm. Can Harbinger of the Seas see into your hand, graveyard and deck like Maskwood Nexus does? Or would that require the specificity MN provides? For example: if you're searching your deck for an island, would pulling a Marit Lage work?
So I was actually wrong about this - Harbinger is not a replacement effect and Dark Depths is the one with the replacement effect. "Entering with" replaces a normal "enters". In the case of Harbinger, when it says "all non-basic lands are islands" - it specifically refers to the battlefield
@@flufftronixthings not on the battlefield are referred to as "cards" or "spells" depending on the zone. Look at Rootpath Purifier or Yixlid Jailer for an example of a permanent which will affect things not on the battlefield.
it seems a bit like the resolving of the last chapter of a saga and resetting it to a lower lorecounter amount than max for keeping the saga on board and also getting the last trigger of the saga, yes ist possible
Its that there have two things to be true for sac a saga, max lore counter and it has to be completly resolved, aslong there r no max lore counter anymore as it get resolved completly(unequal to going on the stack)u can keep it, hope i explaned it right 😊
@@lukassteinbrugger7588 That's pretty much the correct explanation, but it is very different from this Dark Depths interaction. The Saga thing has to do with the specific conditions of the state based action that makes you sacrifice the saga, as you stated. This one though, abuses the fact that trigger conditions are checked during the resolution of a spell.
@@Felixr2 but both has things to resolve , even when the origin of the trigger is not there anymore, thats why i think its similar, but im happy that i could explain the saga triggering right 😂
Isn’t Harbinger of Seas ability permanent? I would think that once a land is turned into island, it will stay as Island, even if Harbinger of Seas gets exiled or sent to graveyard. Edit: Since it is not stated that lands turn back, I believe that they shouldn’t. After all, the statement is not conditional and simply changes the type, while also removing all land abilities.
Hey hey! While i understand where you're coming from, this would open a pandora's box. If i play "flowering of the white tree" - do all of my creatures get bonuses forever? Abilities are really only active while on the battlefield unless otherwise stated - and this would include harbinger as well. That's just the nature of the game
It's for the same reason that Fervor and Glorious Anthem aren't permanent. Static effects of permanents stop applying when they leave, but static effects created by the resolution of spells or abilities will specify a duration.
One thing i missed is that its name never changes. But also, when a card refers to its name, it really just means “this object” - so if the name does change, it would be trigger and activate anyway
Blood Moon and what else? If you have a card that says "enchantments lose all abilities", then Blood Moon would be applied before the ability is removed meaning lands would still be mountains.
their wording here is ridiculously inconsistent given the fact that some triomes are already Islands and Binding the Old Gods lets you search for non-basic forests by simply not specifying "Basic Forest Card." Harbinger should read "Non-basic lands are basic Islands" or even better "Non-basic lands lose any other land types and abilities they had. They gain the land type Island and gain the ability "tap: add blue"
The pinned comment explains it a bit - I got harbinger's ability wrong but the interactions are all correct. Hers isnt a replacement effect. Dark depths is the one with a replacement effect. And because of that "enters with" clause, it looks ahead, sees it'll be an island and enters with no counters
Setting things to a basic land type will remove their abilities if and only if it doesn't use a phrase like "in addition to it's other types" or "it is still a ___". I agree that is inconsistent compared to other subtype setting effects like In Too Deep which require explicitly removing the abilities, but I think it's mainly to save a lot of text.
Hello there, great video! Next, what I hope to be a constructive criticism: Both the shorts and the video title lead me to think that the video would give me an actual answer, instead of inviting us to debate (which is not a problem). But I got a bit frustated by the fact that I had to come to the comment section to get the answer the video promisses.. that's it, hope you the best! Bye
Hey hey! I appreciate the kindness and the feedback. I thought the answer was laid out pretty clearly at the timestamp 3:40 when i said that you can in fact get the marit lage. Let me know what about that was unclear and I can work on that in future videos!
Since Dark Depths states “Sacrifice Dark Depths” the ability would fizzle since Dark Depths is no longer on the field to sacrifice. The land is treated as an island, and is named island. So you would not be able to complete the requirements to resolve the ability since you can no longer sacrifice a the named card Dark Depths. That was how it was explained to me from a judge.
Doesn't any card that references it's own name, for the purposes of effect resolution, actually have [This Card] on the effect? That way you can have multiple versions of the same car in place with self referencing effects tied to each individual game piece.
Yep! A card referencing itself really just means "this object" It's important to note that I messed up a bit in the demonstration here. Dark Depths still retains its name when it changes into an island. I made a small note of this, but didnt keep it consistent, visually, as i thought it would be confusing.
@@nrock49 the only problem is that Harbinger of the Seas replaces the Dark Depths name with “Island” so it no longer has Dark Depths statically on the card once it is in play. It’s the same with spreading seas.
@@ghost_in_the_stereo8802neither of them replace the name, only the subtype. It's also still legendary so if you had 2 you would still need to apply the legend rule. Even if it did change the name though, abilities that use their name still apply to themselves regardless of name changes. The only way it would be otherwise if it says something like "...sacrifice a land named Dark Depths, ..."
@@seandun7083 @ghost_in_the_stereo8802 - exactly, it doesn't matter if it's name was changed, because while the effect on the stack may read "sacrifice dark depth..." The game interprets it as "sacrifice [this object]" and since this object is still on the battlefield it can be sacrificed.
All the interactions you described in the video are accurate, but Harbinger of the Seas does NOT have a replacement effect. Replacement effects affect events. Dark Depths being a nonbasic land is not an event.
Now, it DOES change how nonbasic lands enter the battlefield, but that's a result of rule 611.3c: "Continuous effects that modify characteristics of a permanent do so simultaneously with the permanent entering the battlefield. They don't wait until the permanent is on the battlefield and then change it. ..."
This is still completely separate from replacement effects (which are detailed in section 614).
EDIT: Also, on the difference between state triggers versus regular triggers: It's the same idea. Most triggered abilities trigger on an event (e.g. something happens, you draw a card, a phase or step begins, the last counter is removed from a permanent, etc.), while state triggers trigger on a game state. For an event, you can ask 'did this just happen?', for a game state you can ask 'is this currently true?'.
CORRECT. This is one thing that, now that I go back, is correct. Where I tripped up is that dark depths "entering with X" is a replacement ability in and of itself I believe. Which means it looks ahead and see that it would enter as an island, thus not triggering. Good catch and correction!
@@TopdeckTech 'Triggering' is terminology only used for triggered abilities, for clarity's sake it's better to use different phrasing when talking about things like replacement effects. I, and I believe many others, tend to say replacement effects and other continuous effects 'apply' or 'are applied'.
That aside, yes, "[object(s)] enter(s) the battlefield as/with _" is a template defined in the rules as indicative of a replacement effect. And yes, rule 611.3c I mentioned before makes it so that as it enters the battleifeld, Dark Depths sees that Harbinger of the Seas will apply to it, removing its abilities, and as such also removing the replacement effect that makes it enter with any counters. So in this case, rather than not applying, the effect simply doesn't exist at the time it would be relevant. But technicalities in terminology aside, yeah, your explanation is basically correct there.
@@Felixr2 Thanks for the detailed explanation! It goes that much further in helping us all learn a bit more!
I came here to make the exact point you did. Well done, and thanks @Felixr2!
On the topic of "state triggers vs normal triggers" I think some of the complexity and timing of state triggers (and just modern design principles) has caused WotC to mostly shift away from using them when possible. I think a lot of them are from the era before a lot of the rules and the stack were as well structured and codified (iirc it was around 6th editions when they made a major effort to clean up the rules?) which meant they had to make older cards be more cohesive with each other and newer cards. It's part of why so many older cards have significant erratas to their Oracle rules text (besides just updated wording).
absolutely love the idea of following up a short with a deeper dive into the topic
Youve been instrumental in helping me learn and develop and i wouldnt be here without you friend
@@TopdeckTech if you ever want to talk more weird card interactions, you know where to find me
It’s been a fairly common thing for sometime now. It is a great way to bring people to a longer video from a short
I also found the short with a full video follow-up interesting. (Evidenced by my presence here lol)
My judge status has NOT been adjourned!!
When the state trigger tries to resolve, it checks the state condition upon resolution: "When Dark Depths has no ice counters on it". Nothing about this etate condition will be affected by the Dark Depths being an island. It will in fact still not have ice counters. The ability not being linked has nothing to do with anything.
Are you referring to the end of the video and wondering why this is a state trigger instead of a regular triggered ability?
If so - then what you said is what i assume. Which leads me to wondering why it's a state trigger again lol
@@TopdeckTech It is a state trigger because the condition refers to a game state and not an action. Why was it templated that way? Perhaps because its an old card and the idea of it entering without counters wasn't much of a concern at the time. State triggers aren't very common and mostly used to ensure something happens in a given state regardless of how you got to that state.
Trigger conditions aren't checked on resolution, not even state triggers. You're confusing this with the intervening if clause, which is something else entirely.
Also, Dark Depths doesn't even have any linked abilities.
@@Felixr2 You are absolutely right. I didn't take a closer look at 603.4 when it was pulled up on screen and just assumed it was related to the topic at hand. That's why you don't assume
that also why Magus of the Moon is often not board in agains Dark dephts in legacy you dont want to turn there removal into a combo piece
This is great. Being able to learn a rule as it applies to a specific set of cards like in a real game while sitting on the toilet is useful.
Honestly, I do my best learning while also on the toilet. You're doing it right imo
@@TopdeckTech The Thinker statue has always been the blueprint imo
LOL i think youre onto something here
The Dark Depths last ability is a state based triggered ability so the ability would go on the stack once the condition was met. You still finish resolving ephemerate while the trigger is on the stack. The game will now try to resolve the trigger (obviously assuming no one does anything else with priority) and will Sacrifice the Dark Depths and make you the token
Close, but while Dark Depths triggers during Ephemerate's resolution, you won't actually put it onto the stack into after. If you had a Soul Warden you could stack the trigger from Harbinger entering and the Dark Depths sacrifice trigger in whichever way you want because while the Dark Depths triggers first, you put them onto the stack before a player receives priority after Ephemerate resolves.
@@seandun7083 I know why I thought this now. After reading through the cr I was thinking of how casting a spell during resolution works not a triggered ability waiting for resolution as I didn't realize they wouldn't/don't just work the same. Not sure why they made casting during a resolution enter the stack immediately instead of also waiting on priority like these or vice versa. I've never read that part only the casting during resolution part since it was a weird timing thing anyways. Good thing to know for sure that triggers wait for priority before entering the stack
@@TheTotalGinger I guess it's because you need to choose targets on cast, and lots of things that do let you cast something during resolution tell you to do something else if you don't cast it.
@@seandun7083 possibly. My main one I remembered was when you cast Panglacial Wurm from library during the search and it goes on the stack then you finish the search. But I'm sure you're right that a spell could require targets and you would need to pick them when you cast and therefore they need to go on the stack
If Dark Depths weren't a state trigger, it would probably be worded:
"When an ice counter is removed from dark depths, if it has no counters on it, sacrifice it and create a marit lage".
This would *not* be affected by making it an island, because there's a general rule that when a card named XYZ has XYZ in its rules text it's effectively saying "this permanent/spell", and it's still the same permanent. However, it wouldn't be triggered in the first place in the exact example given, because it hasn't had any ice counters removed because they were never put on!
As an example to demonstrate how this *would* work, imagine the above when-removed-if ruling, but it's been played normally and the last ice counter is being removed. The trigger goes on the stack. Now let's say the opponent controls Teferi, Time Raveler and flashes in a Blood Moon. What happens?
The answer is the trigger resolves and works as normal! Dark Depths doesn't have its ability anymore now that it's a mountain, but this doesn't matter because the trigger was already on the stack. It still refers to the same permanent, and that permanent still has no ice counters on it.
Another important detail: What if the opponent cast Ephemerate on Dark Depths in response to the trigger? In this case, for the actual card, the triggered ability still goes off and says to sacrifice it, however, since the card has left and re-entered the battlefield, it's considered a different permanent from the one the trigger says to sacrifice, and the "if you do" clause never triggers.
However, for the imaginary nonstatebased version, it actually still goes off in full! The trigger checks to see if there are any counters on Dark Depths, but this is looking at the attributes of the permanent that left the battlefield. Since the permanent no longer exists, the trigger "sees" the attributes said permanent had when it left -- which includes zero ice counters, even if the *card* dark depths has re-entered the battlefield with a full complement of ten. This also means you don't have to sacrifice it, so you could get another marit lage later!
my head hurts....
When the last ice counter is removed from dark depths create merit liege
So wild thought but even though dark depths is an island when the trigger resolves, it still has no counters on it and the 'dark depths' in the trigger is actually just a shortcut for 'this card' so the trigger conditions are still met changing the name of a card does not break the abilities of the card that reference the old card name
Yep yep! I recently learned that a card name in it's text just means "this object" more than the name specifically.
@@TopdeckTechI also just learned this rule recently when looking at an Agatha of the Vile Cauldron deck using Agatha’s Soul Cauldron.
Say you exile Kami of Whispered Hopes from the GY with the Cauldron, giving your creatures with +1/+1 counters that ability to tap for mana. They don’t care about the Kami anymore, they each tap for their own power. Which, might I say, is busted
4:49 i believe that, if it were a triggered ability, and it had to Confirm the trigger, the game would look at the Dark Depths, and see that it has no ice counters, so it should be legal. I believe this is possible even if the dark depths is an island, because it's the same object as when the initial effect was triggered. Even if you change it's types, the Dark Depths is still the same Dark Depths with No Ice Counters. When it entered the battlefield, it was a Dark Depths with No Abilities. If you had a card preventing you from playing a Dark Depths, you wouldnt be able to play it as a land for turn, even if it would enter as an island.
Yeah! I think this is true as well! I wonder why it is a state trigger versus a normal one purely out of curiosity in the design process.
Dark depth state trigger is when this has no ice counters confirming the check... as a state based triggered effect, it gets thrown out into space till resolution of the flicker. After the trigger goes into a full on triggered ability the sac ability changes to "sacrifice (this card)" as the land name changed. The triggered ability would resolve in its entirety. That is how a head judge described the same interaction when I flickered my opponents blood moon with my depths out
@@jollyreaper7914 Yes, i believe if we understand the effect as a "this land" instead of "Dark Depths" is much easier to understand that an Island is still the dark depths with a different name. I believe they made this template change in foundations, with the Vengeful Bloodwitch.
wildly, i think another judge actually gave me an incorrect answer on this. Had I overthought it, SBEs would have come up in my mind. Well done!
I didn't know the ruling here at all until i read the answer from a judge and then read the rules. I still have tons of questions about why state-triggers really exist, but that's a different video lol! Thank you for your time and being here!
Probably been addressed by now, but this totally works in the favor of the dark depths player. You’re correct here. I’ll eat my shoe if I’m wrong.
As a combo and control player I thought smth like this would be obvious... but thanks for clarifying for everyone!
Yep! Players dont know what they don't know. Regardless of your deck and playstyle preference, rules like this get weird and complex real fast so Im glad we could help people
@TopdeckTech I also grew up playing the game so some of these things came naturally, not to mention I grew up with my parents running the LGS and they knew I knew enough to become a level 0 judge
As someone who plays a lot of Omo, Queen of Vesuva in EDH and is new to the game, thank you. These game state events are a huge part of my deck, and learning to resolve them is hard without research.
Hi topdeck, two things
To answer your main question at 4:15, the rules you're showing on screen are about "intervening if clauses". These are always written as "when [event], if [gamestate], [effect]", and the commas do matter. Dark Depths' trigger does not have such a clause, and therefore doesn't re-check anything at all when it goes to resolve.
0:40 Harbinger's ability is not a replacement effect. Replacement effects replace events with other events. This ability is a type-changing static ability acting on layer 4 (CR 613.1d). The rule that removes abilities from lands that are under a Blood Moon effect is CR 305.7. The confusion may come from the fact that "enters the battlefield with counters" IS a replacement effect, replacing the event of ETBing with the event of ETBing counterladenly. This part's weird, hold on tight, replacement effects regarding ETBing aren't looking into the past or the future, they're looking at the present FROM the future. “ETBs with counters” is an ability of Dark Depths the land on the field, not Dark Depths the card in your hand. Because Dark Depth will have no abilities when it's finished entering, no event replacement will happen. This is exactly the same as not getting counters on your Murktide when Dress Down is out.
Welcome to the content game, I like your visual style and I'm sure there's great work to come from you. Throughout watching your short and this full video, right up until the 4 min mark, you presented yourself as an expert who has the information and is leading the viewer into it. At the end, you reveal that this is a question you're still trying to crack and only have maybe three quarters of a grip on. I felt this was dishonest. I appreciate the enthusiasm and polish, but I feel that some steps were skipped, and I worry that there is now misinformation in such trustworthy-looking content. Sorry to drag you bud but like buddy.
Hey hey! Yes! Someone else has corrected me on this not being a replacement effect in which I stated that where I got my information crossed was that Dark Depths enters "with" - which is in and of itself a replacement effect. When scripting, I got these interactions quite confused with Harbinger.
But hey no biggie!
The one thing I don't want to do is for people to feel like I am infallible and can't be corrected. I think that it is the most responsible thing that I can do to say "there are still things I dont have a full grasp on and am still learning."
While you may feel like steps were skipped, I did lots of research before hand - days worth - and still missed a bit! It happens! What's more important is for me to learn from that. When making content, failing publicly is bound to happen. Especially when I haven't been playing the game for decades. We're all learning together here.
FWIW, you're not dragging me. I think there is a chance that you assumed some things of my character that are not true - but you responded and redirected in a polite and respectful way. No hard feelings on my end!
Counterladenly?!
Maybe I’m oversimplifying it, but I think you can determine that it has a state-based trigger because the trigger is checking a state, rather than an event that happens on the stack. Things like number of cards in your hand, number if counters on a card, etc. just exist as facts about the current game and so I would assume any triggers are activated the moment that state meets the conditions.
Yep! Since posting this video, Ive been able to further narrow down what I would qualify as a state trigger or a regular trigger.
State triggers exist because they bypass cards like Stifle. Which provides an answer for Dark Depths in particular because Voidslime was in the next block and they probably didn't want a case where someone put 30 mana and a land drop into something without having a chance to protect it.
That’s a super solid reasoning actually and a good point either way!
I would go with this as a legal way to get your 20/20
Dark depths is an interesting card it has both requires and makes you think you have a choice but because it’s a required state based action that does not go on the stack the text is executed as you read it when depths has 0 counters on it sacrifice it, the if you do part is misleading thinking you have a choice if you did have a choice it would read “if depths has 0 counters you may sacrifice it” so in short depths would come in as an island named dark depths then as the replacement effect is flickered out the depths returns to normal and is sacrificed to create the creature it does use the stack ( you could flicker the depths while it’s on the stack to create a new depths )
To prevent this the correct play would be respond to the flicker effect and stop the spell or destroy the land in response or just let it happen and destroy the liege lol
It’d be very interesting to see a board state with this combo active, especially in tournament
I think that if you somehow added one or more ice counters onto Dark Depths after its ability triggered that then upon resolution, it would not let you sacrifice it; it would just do nothing.
It's looking for a specific game state for it to trigger, and upon resolution, even though your land named Dark Depths no longer has the ability (as it's an island), it also still has no ice counters.
Adding ice counters after the ability has triggered won't stop it. Having no ice counters is only the trigger condition so it's not checked on resolution.
I don't know a single thing about Magic, but I watched the whole thing and I'm slammin' that like button. Good to see you back! 🥰
Heyyyyyyyy thanks so much Saffoe! I appreciate you so much my friend!
It does make sense if you think of it as once the blink resolves as it leaves a new stack would take priority being dark depths which sacs itself and then the blink continues
Keep in mind that the Dark Depths triggers while the Harbinger is gone, but the trigger won't actually go onto the stack until after Ephemerate resolves. If it had targets you would choose those as you put it on the stack as well as choosing the order between it and anything else that triggered during Ephemerate's resolution. Once it's on the stack, everyone will still have a chance to respond before it resolves and makes the token.
Hey man, good stuff. Love these weird interactions and learning more about them. Subbed! Also nice editing.
🙏🙏🙏 thank you friend
Harbinger’s ability is not a replacement effect, but on the gatherer official Magic website under Harbinger’s ruling it does state that lands that have ETBs lose their ETBs, so therefore the interaction you presented is correct.
Yep! I corrected my statement in both the pinned comments and in the description!
Subbed. Look forward to more of these even though i dont play Magic anymore.
The only thing is that dark depths enters with ice counters, transforming it into an island is not exiling it destroying it or anything, so it shoul still keep the counters, for example a 1/1 with +10/+10 gets transformed by oko into a 3/3 doesnt make it lose its counters
In this case, it has a replacement effect. The replacement effect is entering “with” ice counters. Turning into an island means it has no replacement effects or abilities and therefore no counters
@@TopdeckTech it replaces dark dephts being a nonbasic land, but if it doesnt say remove counters they wont be removed, because having counters is not an ability of the land, the land adds its counters as an ability, the way that this could work is if harbinger was in the battlefield and then dark depths etb, but otherwise it keeps its counters cause having counters is not an ability
@@zerokj810in blood moon’s ruling - “If a nonbasic land has an ability that causes it to enter the battlefield tapped, it will lose that ability before it can apply. The same is also true of any other abilities that modify how a land enters the battlefield or apply "as" a land enters the battlefield, such as the first ability of Cavern of Souls.”
Lands that enter have their abilities removed before they enter, thus preventing counters from being placed
gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83008
Awesome awesome style of content, following up on the short. The editing was also buttery smooth! Very happy with this new channel :)
I appreciate that a lot friend. Thanks for coming through and hanging out!
I would love a video on how if you blink an aura you can attach it to any legal target, for instance if i attack with Phelia Exuberant Shepherd exile my darksteel mutation, when it comes back I can safely put it on any creature even creatures with ward shroud and hexproof, also maybe Protection from white although I am unsure about that 1
👀👀👀👀
It gets around hexproof since it doesn't target, but protection also says "can't be enchanted" which it doesn't get around.
@@seandun7083 I get that but because darksteel mutation removes the abilities of the card I don't know if it still has protection in time to get rid of darksteel mutation
@@Eruvnalohh. I believe these two rules mean you can't choose to attach it in the first place.
303.4f: If an Aura is entering the battlefield under a player's control by any means other than by resolving as an Aura spell, and the effect putting it onto the battlefield doesn't specify the object or player the Aura will enchant, that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the battlefield. The player must choose a legal object or player according to the Aura's enchant ability and any other applicable effects.
702.16c: A permanent or player with protection can't be enchanted by Auras that have the stated quality. Such Auras attached to the permanent or player with protection will be put into their owners' graveyards as a state-based action. (See rule 704, "State-Based Actions.")
@@seandun7083 Thank you for that, reading it out like that it does look like it would be unable to attach.
Huh, I thought state triggers were limited to game fuctions, like why turning Urza's Saga into a Mountain or Island causes it to immediately be sacrificed due to it remaining a Saga and having more Lore counters than Chapters
That would be state based actions! State based actions happen anytime someone would get priority and do things like send creatures with 0 toughness to the grave, remove tokens from the grave or destroy sagas like how you describe!
Yooo, siiick editing on the cards morphing into each other! For your question, you can tell when something is a state trigger if the conditions that would cause it to trigger can only be fulfilled by the gamestate itself. E.g. Dark Depths reads "When Dark Depths has no ice counters on it [...]" and that condition has to be tied to the gamestate, because there's no part of the condition that ties it to any specifc event. Since the ability just sits there waiting for itself to be true, it has to apply to [be checked by] the gamestate.
Hey hey! Thanks for coming through and thanks for the info. I think when analyzing it, it feels like all triggers are waiting on the gamestate to match the trigger condition. Perhaps it has something to do with the card having a verb or executing an action.
Example: "When (card) enters the battlefield"
Example: "When (card) attacks"
It's hard to convey semantically, but the difference between a triggered ability and a state-trigger is that a triggered ability happens when an event occurs, while a state-trigger happens when a set of conditions is met. In a certain sense, yes, something like "when another land enters the battlefield" requires that the gamestate notice the event happened, but because that noticing was triggered by the event taking place, it's a triggered ability, vs. something like "when you control seven or more permanents" is a state-trigger, because the condition of that text being true isn't tied to the ETB of the 7th permanent, it's just a set of conditions that become true when that happens. So it's really anytime there's rules text on a card that defines a set of conditions that aren't attached to an event, then it must be a state-trigger.
I think I have to gnaw on this for a lot longer but the provided explanation makes sense, i just need to look at a ton more examples
Also, tangentially related to this convo, but the last time I was super nerdy about Magic's rules was when combat damage was put on the stack and unspent mana in your pool would burn your life total, so I'm relearning right along with ya!
Do Blightsteel Colossus/Nexus of Fate vs Ashiok Dream, Render's -1 ability please. I've had more than one heated discussion over this and it's relevant to a deck I run.
Blightsteel colossus never hits your graveyard. It says shuffle it into your library INSTEAD. It replaces it going into the graveyard. It can't be exiled from your graveyard if it was never in there. Exact same thing with nexus of fate. The word Instead means it never actually hits the graveyard. Another example, if you have something that says, whenever a creature you control dies, do X. Blightsteel dying would NOT trigger it because he doesn't actually touch the graveyard.
@@C0medySeniorz Ok then what's the proper action when someone uses Ashiok's -1 Mill 4 then exile the graveyard. If the Blightsteel is the 3rd card being milled do you shuffle it in and then mill another. If it doesn't touch the gy where does it go while the rest of the ability resolves?? That's what's confusing me, because I've always been under the impression nothing can else can happen when a spell or ability is resolving.
@@CharlesLeeRay812 Replacement effects change the game actions happening instead of triggered abilities, which respond to game actions happening. So, what happens is Ashiok's ability assigns the top 4 cards to be milled, then attempts to place them all in at once ('Mill X' is not treated like 'Draw X'). Blightsteel Colossus' replacement effect then forces it back into the deck because it changes the attempt to put it into the graveyard into an instruction to shuffle it into the deck. Then Ashiok's ability exiles the graveyard.
Short version: Blightsteel Colossus changes the 'Mill 4' part of the effect to 'take the top 4 cards of the deck. Put the other three into the graveyard, shuffle Blightsteel Colossus into the deck'. This contrasts with Worldspine Wurm, where it goes to the graveyard, doesn't like the headstones and attempts to trigger, but can't do so until Ashiok is fully resolved (and then fizzles because it's not in the proper location anymore).
@@Auron3991 thank you. I'm sure that was a pain to type but it was worth it.
I think ill make a video over this interaction because it's sort of fun and there are some differences between this and Emrakul, The Aeons Torn which says "when" - denoting a triggered ability.
Really liked the format and the video itself, I'm not the best player when it comes to rules and "particular cases" so i very much thank you mate!
I'm a 5c chaos edh player so I'm really enjoying this type of content!!
Keep up with it mate and thank you ❤
I even messed up the video a bit - so we're all learning here. Im also a visual learner so i have to kind of re-enact a stack to understand. Thanks for the kind words, it means a ton!
The simple way to think about state triggers Vs regular triggers is "would a photo of the board be enough"
If you need to tell someone what 'just' happened, it's a normal trigger, but if they can go 'oh, this should happen now' it's a state trigger, e.g. "that saga has too many counters, but it's ability isn't on the stack." State trigger puts it there (and state based actions sacrifice after) but if dark depths said "when the last counter is removed" you'd need to know if that just happened, or if it's had zero counters for a while.
This is most prominent with stifle, as Dark depths works, you stifle the stack trigger and end at the same picture as before (zero counters) so the state trigger happens again. But if it was "when the last counter is removed..." Stifle would stop it, and now a picture doesn't tell you did it oose it's counters and get stifled, or did it just loose them.
The slightly more technical explanation is that state triggers are looking for a true/false question about what the game state looks like, triggered abilities look for actions and changes, when something happens or someone does something, or something changes state (e.g. dies)
Hope that helps
Yeah this helps a lot!
The way someone described it that helped is to check the verbiage that was used.
If someone or something has to do something - it is a triggered ability. Example "At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter. When the last is removed, you may cast it without paying its mana cost." You are the person removing time counters, and when *you* remove the last one, etc. I think this makes sense for upkeep triggers etc, as the game has to move forward for the thing to happen.
Dark depths saying "when no more counters exist on this thing" which has no verbs indicate someone taking an action like, "remove"
Im unsure why the concept is so odd for my brain to wrap around, but i appreciate your explanation because that helps too. "Would a photo of the board, with no explanation be enough"
Great stuff!
I’ll take my judge certification, please! 🤓
On the final topic about the actual resolution of the effect, it doesn’t matter what the name of the card is in this situation. Dark Depths referring to itself by name is only the game’s way of referring to the card/object. It uses a proper noun instead of a pronoun for clarity. The relevant rule is 201.4. Dark Depths never becomes a different permanent or new instance of itself, so even though it’s just an island with the name “Island”, the trigger still knows what to do and is still valid when it checks again at resolution.
Yeah! I remember this ruling with regards to a card referencing itself - if a card references its name, it really just means “this object”
Though it becoming an island doesn’t change the name either.
It’s fun to speculate on why it’s a state trigger vs triggered ability and it seems like that just has more to do with the verbiage used, whether intentional or not.
“When (permanent) has no more counters (paraphrase)”
Vs
“When you remove the last counter”
Active vs passive or something of that nature
@@TopdeckTechstate triggers trigger as long as a condition is true whereas other ones trigger due to an individual event happening.
Removing the last ice counter from Dark Depths isn't something that is true about the game state, it is something that happened.
If not for the rule that state triggers can't trigger again until they have left the stack, they would keep triggering infinitely. That still will happen if the trigger doesn't stop the condition from being true (If you animate Dark Depths and equip an Assault Suit to it before removing the last counter, you will keep trying and failing to sacrifice it forever).
The name also never changes. Only the subtype does.
'Harbinger of the Seas doesn't affect names or supertypes. It won't turn any land into a basic land or remove the legendary supertype from a legendary land, and the lands won't be named "Island." '
@@seandun7083 Whoops!
this is the same as asking if you have a creature on the field that has taken near lethal damage and then you "ephemerate" something like "Benalish Marshal" does the damaged creature die before "Benalish Marshal" re-enters.
Really interesting. I think the key difference is that a creature dying would be due to state based actions, not to a state - trigger. In the example you asked, I believe Benalish would leave and re-enter, but at no point in time are state based actions checked.
This is the same as someone casting windfall while you have a body of knowledge on the battlefield. Body of knowledge, for a moment, has 0 toughness, but that is during the spell resolving - in which case state based actions are not checked until after the resolution of the spell, when someone would get priority again.
I wish there was more content like this. A break down of interesting interactions and how to anazlye it
This is a huge compliment, I appreciate this a ton! If you ever get any ideas or a tough card interaction, id love to look into it!
This is really cool and nerdy. Hoping you continue this series in the future.
Im pretty hooked on this type of content and will for sure be doing more!
With the way this interaction works in respects to layers, it would only make sense to get the marit lage. Layers dont exclusively check the stack.
Yeah layers are wild and i havent memorized all the ways those function yet
That's deep. Dark Depths deep
How is the Felidar Sovereign example not a state trigger? It seems to check for a game state (that of having 40 or more life) rather than an event occuring. Is it only the timing restriction of "at the beginnning of your upkeep" that makes it not a state trigger? If it was worded "whenever you have 40 or more life" would it be a state trigger then? Also, where does it specify that state triggers don't need to check if the condition is still true on resolution? Doesn't 603.4 apply to all triggered abilities, inculding state triggers? Is the state that triggers state triggers not considered a condition being met in the sense of 603.4? 603.8 does refer to the state matching the condition.
Correct. The biggest thing seems to be that it is dependent on an action or movement into a phase.
The way it was explained in the comments was "if you take a photo of the board state, is the photo enough for the trigger"
For Felidar, a photo of the boardstate isnt enough to denote whether or not youre in your upkeep. Which owuld mean it's a regular trigger.
I also try to think of whether or not something has actively happened to trigger an ability. "When the last counter is removed from dark depths" would be a regular trigger versus state trigger because you would actively be removing a thing. Moving into upkeep requires action, even if it is the natural progression of the game.
The reasoning here is that state triggers cant reasonably be countered. Because if they are, they just trigger again, since the state is still true. So if dark depths' trigger is countered, it triggers again. But at the beginning of upkeep, phyrexian arena could be countered and then you would move beyond the phase - i believe anyway.
A trigger only checks if the condition is true on resolution if it uses an "Intervening If Clause" which is described in 603.4. Those use a very specific format which Dark Depths doesn't use. They need
"[When/whenever/at] [Trigger event], if [condition], [effect]."
So, "when X happens, if Y is true, do Z"
Dark Depths uses
"When [trigger event], Effect."
A card that does use an Intervening If is Guardian Project. It triggers when a nontoken creature enters. It's condition is that you don't have anything with the same name on the battlefield or in your graveyard. If someone kills the creature in response to the trigger, then it will see a creature with the same name on your graveyard and do nothing.
I'm gonna test this on forge. That seems shakey
Have fun! Let me know what you find
@@TopdeckTech it created the token. 100% confirmed. If forges rules and interactions are up to date.
@@moreparmesan5261 AYYYYY i dont have to take the video down! Let's go
Dark Depths abiltiy to enter the battlefield with 10 ice counters occurs before it is a permanent that Harbinger can effect.
Its not a 'when this enters the battlefield' its 'this enters the battlefield with'. It occured before it is a permanent.
Replacement effects can actually look into to future to see how a card will look once it is on the battlefield. This is a relatively new rule change (this ruling from Blood Moon was made 2020)
"If a nonbasic land has an ability that causes it to enter the battlefield tapped, it will lose that ability before it can apply. The same is also true of any other abilities that modify how a land enters the battlefield or apply "as" a land enters the battlefield, such as the first ability of Cavern of Souls."
I feel it only cecks if there are still no ice counters on it. That is what it is checking, right?
It depends! Im not sure as I guess it depends on what is doing the checking or not
Love the interactive short followed by the video 👌🏽
One thing that tripped me up though, is the representation of Dark Depths in the short. There's a difference, in my mind, between a card named Dark Depths that is an Island and just an Island. I suppose it doesn't matter since it's not a regular triggered ability and it can find and sacrifice itself either way.
But I guess my main question is, is there an Island named Dark Depths or is there just a regular Island on the board?
I don't play with Blood Moon type effects much so I genuinely just don't know.
Thank you!
So, with replacement effects, the name of the card isnt replaced, just it's abilities. So technically, it is Dark Depths and has the ability "Tap to add Blue"
I couldve definitely used the edited example more to make that clearer but thought that may be confusing. Good note!
@TopdeckTech Good to know! Thank you!
It wouldn't have mattered much for me because my brain was stuck on traditional triggered abilities and SBA's, but I'm sure a couple people noticed the same thing, where the whole card changed into an Island and back.
Great videos regardless! Keep up the great work! 💙
Ugh. State triggers. I see now. I get those crossed with state based actions all the time. Interesting interaction.
If dark depths trigger wasnt a state trigger it would trigger infinitly, causing a draw to happen. State striggers wont go on the stack when their trigger condition has been met
Can you explain this thought process because, now knowing the difference between state and regular trigger in it's verbiage, i dont think it would trigger infinitely.
@@TopdeckTech like if you control a dark depth with no counters, it would trigger
But then it again is true, so it would go on the stack again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again
Same sort of trigger is trancendence that checks for it your life total is 20 or more (what would you cause to lose the game)
I have a really fundamental (n00b??) question here... why do we interpret "Nonbasic lands are Islands" to mean nonbasic Lands have their type set to that of a Basic Land? My initial assumption on reading the text was that nonbasic lands become Islands *in addition* to their types as described on the card.
"nonbasic lands are islands" sets the subtype to only be "Island". It doesn't change the name and it doesn't add "basic" or remove "legendary".
Setting the land type does have a special rule that applies when it doesn't use phrasing like "... in addition to its other types" or "it is still a ...". It will also cause the land to lose all abilities other than the "tap: add one blue mana" that is granted from being an island.
Note that Harbinger doesn't say "nonbasic lands are islands in addition to their other types" so it will remove all of Dark Depths's abilities.
This is the perfect answer. Sean nailed it.
It isn't so much that we are interpreting and so much that the rules explicitly state this on the rules of Harbinger.
"Nonbasic lands lose any other land types and abilities they had. They gain the land type Island and gain the ability "Tap: Add Blue.""
This is a great explanation from Sean. I found from experience that casting Spreading Seas targeting Eye of Ugin essentially turns EoU into a “Legendary” Island. Weird.
Rule 704.3 pretty much lays out when the state is checked. I'm pretty certain Dark Depth does not trigger.
Looking at the rules on Dark Depths - it is a state trigger. See 704.1a. And triggered abilities are not reliant on state based actions to check for them. State based actions do not interfere with or activate triggers as far as I can find and are not reliant on them. If you find more that can back this up though, Id love to take a look.
"As soon as the game starts matches that condition". State triggers are different than State Based Actions.
603.8: Some triggered abilities trigger when a game state (such as a player controlling no permanents of a particular card type) is true, rather than triggering when an event occurs. These abilities trigger as soon as the game state matches the condition. They'll go onto the stack at the next available opportunity. These are called state triggers. (Note that state triggers aren't the same as state-based actions.) A state-triggered ability doesn't trigger again until the ability has resolved, has been countered, or has otherwise left the stack. Then, if the object with the ability is still in the same zone and the game state still matches its trigger condition, the ability will trigger again.Example: A permanent's ability reads, "Whenever you have no cards in hand, draw a card." If its controller plays the last card from their hand, the ability will trigger once and won't trigger again until it has left the stack. If its controller casts a spell that reads "Discard your hand, then draw that many cards," the ability will trigger during the spell's resolution because the player's hand was momentarily empty.
Good video! However, I think we missed an important part here. Does DD enter with the 10 counters? 😶 Why? (The answer is different from what happened a few years ago!)
It does not enter with 10 ice counters, because it enters as an island. That was covered I believe!
@@TopdeckTechsorry, I wanted to say "with no counters", not 10. Indeed it was covered, but it is a whole rules question why it happens that way (not trivial at all to me)
New mtg channel lets gooo. Good video will be waiting for more
Thanks so much for the vote of confidence
Well this is cool! Thanks for explaining and have a sub.
Oh thank you!
Do the Sphinx of the Second Sun. For the second video. Keep it Dark Depths deep
Which interaction would you like on that? Sphinx is real weird but was there something specific you had questions on
This is insane I didn’t know this thank you!
I made this whole video and STILL got a teeny bit of it wrong, though the interaction has the same end result all the same!
I enjoyed this , thank you
You are so so welcome. Thank you for being so kind
Do you have any other wild game interactions you'd like to see explored? Post em below!
Hey I just fault about ulalek and two echos of eternities
Does it go infinite or what is wrong with this combo when you do pay 2 colorless after casting an eldrazi spell
And cannot pay 2 colorless also on a later moment as a response on a counter
This card combo gave me so much headache and I still try to do a visual map to reconstruct every time it happens but we can't agree on anything and then we all scoop and go next 😅
Is ulalek out first? You would pay 2, get 2 echoes of eternity on the battlefield, but they ETB at the same time, so i dont believe they trigger each other
@@TopdeckTech nah let's start the senario:
On field I have ulalek and 2 echos
I cast an eldrazi spell
I pay 2
Echos triggers
Echos triggers
Does echos of eternity copy the stack copy ability and then the echos effect?
So it endless loops?
It's way to confusing maybe worth a video 😅
I think the "if you do" means it is a replacement effect. Which makes me think that echoes wouldn't duplicate the "whenever" opening clause. But i should check. Yeah it seems neat!
How about Blightsteel Colossus/ Nexus of Fate vs Ashiok, Dream Render's -1
I've heard two different answers.
The resolution verification is only true for intervening if triggers. The all include a subcondition between a pair of comas.
Something else for me to dive in and try to understand!
Hmm. Can Harbinger of the Seas see into your hand, graveyard and deck like Maskwood Nexus does? Or would that require the specificity MN provides? For example: if you're searching your deck for an island, would pulling a Marit Lage work?
So I was actually wrong about this - Harbinger is not a replacement effect and Dark Depths is the one with the replacement effect. "Entering with" replaces a normal "enters". In the case of Harbinger, when it says "all non-basic lands are islands" - it specifically refers to the battlefield
@@TopdeckTech gotcha, thanks
@@flufftronixthings not on the battlefield are referred to as "cards" or "spells" depending on the zone. Look at Rootpath Purifier or Yixlid Jailer for an example of a permanent which will affect things not on the battlefield.
Love the format, subbed
Great to have you here
Short video into longer video is clever.
Thank you!
I ,too, am extraordinarily humble. Nobody could ever possibly be as humble as I am...
LOL you must be a ton of fun at parties
@@TopdeckTech I can appreciate the irony in that comment.
Just remember to be in "Full Control" while you are playing....🤣🤣🤣
Im never in full control, let's be honest. Im simply doing my best LOL
it seems a bit like the resolving of the last chapter of a saga and resetting it to a lower lorecounter amount than max for keeping the saga on board and also getting the last trigger of the saga, yes ist possible
I imagine that this works as long as you prevent state based actions from being checked, which is what would send it to the graveyard, yea?
Its that there have two things to be true for sac a saga, max lore counter and it has to be completly resolved, aslong there r no max lore counter anymore as it get resolved completly(unequal to going on the stack)u can keep it, hope i explaned it right 😊
So same as depth its like checking lifetotal of a player
@@lukassteinbrugger7588 That's pretty much the correct explanation, but it is very different from this Dark Depths interaction. The Saga thing has to do with the specific conditions of the state based action that makes you sacrifice the saga, as you stated. This one though, abuses the fact that trigger conditions are checked during the resolution of a spell.
@@Felixr2 but both has things to resolve , even when the origin of the trigger is not there anymore, thats why i think its similar, but im happy that i could explain the saga triggering right 😂
Isn’t Harbinger of Seas ability permanent? I would think that once a land is turned into island, it will stay as Island, even if Harbinger of Seas gets exiled or sent to graveyard.
Edit: Since it is not stated that lands turn back, I believe that they shouldn’t. After all, the statement is not conditional and simply changes the type, while also removing all land abilities.
Hey hey! While i understand where you're coming from, this would open a pandora's box. If i play "flowering of the white tree" - do all of my creatures get bonuses forever? Abilities are really only active while on the battlefield unless otherwise stated - and this would include harbinger as well. That's just the nature of the game
It's for the same reason that Fervor and Glorious Anthem aren't permanent.
Static effects of permanents stop applying when they leave, but static effects created by the resolution of spells or abilities will specify a duration.
@@TopdeckTech I guess that makes sense. God, I wish they worded the abilities less confusing.
Nice interior decorating. Real plants?
Real plants! It’s a hobby of mine. We have about 20 house plants all together
Geil 😊 bitte mehr solche Videos 😊
Does the card being named something different not matter?
One thing i missed is that its name never changes. But also, when a card refers to its name, it really just means “this object” - so if the name does change, it would be trigger and activate anyway
Just use thespian stage
Great Video!
Wouldn’t this work with blood moon too then?
Blood Moon and what else?
If you have a card that says "enchantments lose all abilities", then Blood Moon would be applied before the ability is removed meaning lands would still be mountains.
*edit: yes Blood Moon fills a similar role to Harbinger here.
Were.. you... a dbd youtuber at any point?
Definitely defintely!
their wording here is ridiculously inconsistent given the fact that some triomes are already Islands and Binding the Old Gods lets you search for non-basic forests by simply not specifying "Basic Forest Card."
Harbinger should read "Non-basic lands are basic Islands" or even better "Non-basic lands lose any other land types and abilities they had. They gain the land type Island and gain the ability "tap: add blue"
The pinned comment explains it a bit - I got harbinger's ability wrong but the interactions are all correct. Hers isnt a replacement effect. Dark depths is the one with a replacement effect. And because of that "enters with" clause, it looks ahead, sees it'll be an island and enters with no counters
@@TopdeckTech Yeah i read the rulings and updated my comment. now it's just a complaint about their inconsistent wording
Setting things to a basic land type will remove their abilities if and only if it doesn't use a phrase like "in addition to it's other types" or "it is still a ___".
I agree that is inconsistent compared to other subtype setting effects like In Too Deep which require explicitly removing the abilities, but I think it's mainly to save a lot of text.
@@seandun7083 they're saving one word lmao, they could just say "Nonbasic lands are basic Islands"
@@lennonsteeler except they aren't basic
Tldr?
Dark Depths will trigger. Turning it back into an island won't stop it from resolving.
Hello there, great video! Next, what I hope to be a constructive criticism: Both the shorts and the video title lead me to think that the video would give me an actual answer, instead of inviting us to debate (which is not a problem). But I got a bit frustated by the fact that I had to come to the comment section to get the answer the video promisses.. that's it, hope you the best! Bye
Hey hey!
I appreciate the kindness and the feedback. I thought the answer was laid out pretty clearly at the timestamp 3:40 when i said that you can in fact get the marit lage.
Let me know what about that was unclear and I can work on that in future videos!
No thumb-rings or bracelets?
You're getting lazy.
I cannot fathom what on earth you are talking about
Since Dark Depths states “Sacrifice Dark Depths” the ability would fizzle since Dark Depths is no longer on the field to sacrifice. The land is treated as an island, and is named island. So you would not be able to complete the requirements to resolve the ability since you can no longer sacrifice a the named card Dark Depths. That was how it was explained to me from a judge.
Doesn't any card that references it's own name, for the purposes of effect resolution, actually have [This Card] on the effect? That way you can have multiple versions of the same car in place with self referencing effects tied to each individual game piece.
Yep! A card referencing itself really just means "this object"
It's important to note that I messed up a bit in the demonstration here. Dark Depths still retains its name when it changes into an island. I made a small note of this, but didnt keep it consistent, visually, as i thought it would be confusing.
@@nrock49 the only problem is that Harbinger of the Seas replaces the Dark Depths name with “Island” so it no longer has Dark Depths statically on the card once it is in play. It’s the same with spreading seas.
@@ghost_in_the_stereo8802neither of them replace the name, only the subtype. It's also still legendary so if you had 2 you would still need to apply the legend rule.
Even if it did change the name though, abilities that use their name still apply to themselves regardless of name changes. The only way it would be otherwise if it says something like "...sacrifice a land named Dark Depths, ..."
@@seandun7083 @ghost_in_the_stereo8802 - exactly, it doesn't matter if it's name was changed, because while the effect on the stack may read "sacrifice dark depth..." The game interprets it as "sacrifice [this object]" and since this object is still on the battlefield it can be sacrificed.
cardboard game make brain hurt
I still got something wrong and I did my digging for this video. Definitely make brain hurt