The show isn't saying drinking is worse than killing. That's Heaven. To me the show was always about the unfairness of the system, the hypocricy of Heaven, rather than what makes the sinners bad.
Especially on the point of Husk's reaction to Angel- its not about the Action as much as the Intent, which seems to have gotten missed in the post-discussion. Heaven's rules are arbitrary, but Husk's rules are about what Angel's doing for genuine fun, or self defense, etc - vs what angel is doing to self-destruct.
I'd say Husk wasn't being annoyed on the moment at the drugs _themselves_ but at seeing Angel relapse & revert to their behaviour from before they "matured/progressed" during the episode spent together. Then Angel standing up to Valentino was showing that they had indeed improved.
No for nothing, but you do realize that Charlie was borned and raised in hell, right? The notion of redemption is the very surface things that she has tried doing: trust falls, the role playing saying No to drugs, etc. These are what the basic notions that the Christian religion has tried to impart on us. All that is BS, but Charlie doesn't know any better. She wants her people to not be killed because she was under the assumption that the killing was for overpopulation. So redeeming and getting sinners to Heaven would stop the yearly genocide. At least that's the idea. Again, she knows the basic concepts but she doesn't actually know, it's never done before. She is throwing everything she can think of to the wall and seeing what sticks.
yes i think people forget charlie is literally born in hell.and did not live as human so it's not the same as privileged people who don't want to understand people below them rather it's similar to people who can't understand because of situation
I think you're missing the point of going to hell in this show. That is the payment of their sins. The sinners don't have to make up for the past that has already been paid for. They have to show they have improved now from the ppl they were on earth.
Thinking back to Vaggie’s lines in Whatever It Takes, those definitely hit differently now that we have context. “When I saw your face, you made me feel like a stranger in a brand new place, and it felt so good to be understood, there’s so much that I wish I could say.” So Vaggie’s love language is Acts of Service, which makes sense seeing as she was in the Exorcist army, where you’re literally just trained to follow orders and that’s your whole worth. So for her to lose all that, and then meet Charlie who is possibly the first person to show Vaggie true love and affection, of course she’s going to become undyingly loyal and devoted to her. That’s the only kind of love she knows how to give. And thats before we get into her making herself into armor/an inanimate object. I think Husk said it best, Vaggie hates herself and, again, a lot of her self worth is tied into being the protector, the spear, the person who will make Charlie’s dreams a reality at the cost of herself if she has to. Which…. Frick me they really need to have a conversation about that, get this girl a therapist, please. Also, unrelated, but for as much of a shit person as Lute is…. I love her voice. Literally my favorite part of You Didn’t Know. 10/10 have listened to that specific part again and again.
it also makes her line in "best day in hell"(Or whatever the first song is calld i forgor) also inteeresting, where she calls the angels psychotic and depraved (or soemthing)
if I am not mistaken she descibed them as "blood-thirsty and deranged" and it was said un a way that was unclear if she was talking about sinners or angels. I think having that be unclear is so good! and I much perfer her saying that referring to the angels.@@sarafontanini7051
you are in for such a surprise because the whole point gets spelled out in this episode: no one knows how to get into Heaven and redemption is not a part of it also, on the drugs vs murder thing: Angel and Husk didn't actually kill anyone on episode 4 - demons can only be killed by angelic weapons, which neither of them were using, otherwise they just reform after a while; it's also part of why Alastor is so terrifying
@@finanightmare1993You can understand a Sinner or a Hellborn by blood. Those who were killed by Angel and Husk had red blood, the same goes for those who attacked the hotel and were killed by Alastor. Those who were shown in Helluva boss was a Hellborn, because their blood was already black.
@@finanightmare1993 No, those sharks were sinners. There are hellborn fish demons but not those guys. They literally are shown again in ep5, they're fine.
I don't believe this is a spoiler, since this is not stated in the show, but an external medium. Still, worth the warning. So the show never explicitly states this, but in Velvet's first scene, you can see Valentino literally tearing someone apart limb from limb behind her. Later in that episode, she mentions that it will take some time for the model he attacked to put herself back together. I don't remember if it's a comic or one of the podcasts, but it was confirmed that sinners don't actually die in hell if they're "killed" by normal means. As a sinner, if you die in hell, you just remanifest. Another example of this are the loan sharks (which you could argue are different people) who Angel and Husk kill, but show up in a later episode. The only real way for a sinner to truly die in hell is with the use of angelic weapons, which the exorcists use for the extermination. As such, while very violent, Angel isn't actually killing anyone for real, so yeah, you could argue that doing drugs and drinking could be considered a higher issue than just "killing" someone.
From episode 1 I did not think this show is about personal redemption. Almost as soon as we met Adam I thought that show was about the system and questioning the concept of what makes a good or bad person in general. I'm not sure why you would think otherwise after seeing him. I an asking genuinely asking because to me the show is not, and never was, about redemption at all. To me Adam is evil. He is sadistic, capricious and lustful. That last one being a mortal sin. So why is he in heaven? I think the show is trying to see people as people, flawed with good and bad in varying amounts in all more alike than many would like to believe. I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong I just don't understand how you got there.
I saw a comment once saying Adam got to Heaven on a technicality; back when he was alive, he basically never got the opportunity to commit any of the Deadly Sins. He was the only man and was deemed superior to Lilith and Eve by a higher power, so he couldn't really commit the sin of Pride. Similarly, there was nobody he could be envious of, so that's a no on Envy. The only other person around him was Eve, who was very literally made to serve him, so how could he ever commit the sin of Wrath against her? Sloth, he was cast from Eden, and therefore had to pull his own weight to survive, so it's a no on that. Greed, there was no "material wealth" to seek when he was alive. Gluttony, same reason as Greed, there was no excess. Lust, it was him and Eve and nobody else, who would he lust after? So yeah he was a horrible person, he just never got the chance to show it in life, so he went to Heaven.
Correction, they can. But only HellBorn Demons can kill each other. Only Sinners can kill, die and be reborn after that. Only angelic weapons and much higher and more powerful demons, the lords of Hell, as well other powerful beings can finally destroy them.
@@MarkMark-lx6gl it's not relevant in the context of Hazbin. And then it's a whole mess cuz royalty still needs angelic weapons so it's some hellborn, which then leads to the entire hierarchy of hell. It's just a lot for casual viewing and mostly irrelevant to Hazbin
Well maybe they do because in episode 2 they sing a song about "It starts with sorry" and they say "it'll take time to cover my vast multitude of sins, but sorry is where it begins" so maybe they do cover some of their personal issues off camera?
To be fair, Charlie`s weird emphasis on Sera`s name may just be a result of her valleygirl/Mid-Atlantic accent inherited from her father and most likely her mother as well.
You are basically on the idea if the show now. Charlie wants to make a redemption hotel, but she actually hasn't thought through the details, like what needs to be done to get someone safely into heaven. The shows 1st season has the redemption as a background concept, not the plot. The season 1 plot is about getting heaven's consent and support to redeem someone so they can go to heaven, safe from the extermination, but someone(s) is blocking the way. Charlie is trying redemption with Angel Dust by first getting him stable so that he doesn't commit sin again and thus damning him further. I think her plan is when he is sinless, then they'll focus on redemption, else, he could f--- up along the way and need to redeem that act too and repeat the cycle. But yes, Charlie is possibly going by everything the wrong way, sort of like trying selling a half-built car and with no idea if people would want to buy the car. One of the things you saw this episode is Lute calling Vaggie and Charlie's love vile and blasphemous. This could suggest that only straight people get into heaven, meaning that if Angel is not straight, he'll never get into heaven.
26:30 - So technically it was revealed outside the show years before the show even came out why these characters are in hell, and I think they didn't include it bc they didn't think it was necessary to show why they're there, at least not this season, bc this season is more about setting up the system as a whole being kinda broken. Permanence is a big thing in Christian mythology, regular people don't get out of hell and don't fall from Heaven. If you're in one you're there forever. Purgatory is the only one that's timed, but that is a Catholic only place that doesn't exist in other versions. Hell and Heaven are meant to be permanent, so they try to focus on why permanence is a problem. Adam acts like your average sinner in Hell, but he gets to stay in Heaven because he got the special pass early on and everyone just has to put up with him. Meanwhile they're trying to show that Angel can act in a selfless manner in Hell, but he's still there despite that. The question is, twofold. It's not just can Angeldust be redeemed through becoming a better person, it's also, can Adam fall through being an absolute dick. 27:24 - Well, you could argue that one was self-defense, and also I don't believe sinners can die from conventional weapons, they kinda just came back in ep5 like nothing happened to them.
Hell in the Hazbin Hotel is designed in such a way that sinners can kill each other, but if it is not an angelic weapon, then those killed will be reborn in hell again after some time. so they kill each other all the time and it doesn't mean anything. and alostor is so famous because he killed several people and they were never reborn in hell.
You're comparing actions of demons to angels and using adam as constant example, but it's quite clearly shown that he is not a regular angel. He's pretty much the golden child. Seraphs are above him but he still doesn't give a shit about their rules, and they can't really do much about it. He's first human, so everyone just needs to roll with whatever he's doing.
Angeldust isn't "who the show is about." It's an ensemble. Watching the discussion after each episode is frustrating. I'd love to see these huge theme discussions happen at the end of the season, after you've got all the information and the context of the whole story.
They arent entirely wrong. The show is supposed to be an ensemble, but not every character gets the same amount of purpose, screen time, action, and character direction. It shoves to many main characters into focus and does little to nothing of importance with the majority them.
Eh, I don't think there is anything wrong with discussing things as they watch, even if all the pieces aren't there yet. It isn't like they don't change their minds when new information comes to light. I'm sure the post ep 8 conversation is gonna be a long one
huh? You get triggered by 2 people that are seeing the show 1 episode x week and have no context of what's to come? wha? it's like you saying: "I swear you make me rage every time i want to teach you how to drive" to a child. What do you expect's gonna happen if the kid hasn't yet developed? Well, here's the same. How can you expect you all expert of the "common sense" and "instant-understanding of literature master", for 2 people to understand something that it's yet to come?. And also, they're not THAT wrong. lmao.
Personal redemption is part of the plot, but Charlie has no idea how to achieve that. She has a very childish idea of what goodness is. The issue is that personal redemption and Heaven’s idea of redemption are not the same. In fact, Heaven doesn’t even know why most people end up there. The show has multiple goals and themes. Ultimate goal: stop the genocide. Secondary goal: make the hotel inhabitants’ live better and redeem them so that Heaven will be forced to accept them. Edit: Husk disapproves of Angel’s drug usage because he’s an addict. He cannot be normal about drugs and it is actively bad/harmful to himself.
I'm sure u know by now, but just in case. People respawn in hell. There 2 or 3 hints, 'angel: "... where do i go, double hell..."in pilot' but it doesn't come out and say it. People only get erased during extermination. Hope that helps unstuck. Love the reactions
When sinners kill eachother, they reform some time after. Velvette refers to it in episode 2 briefly when telling vox that her model wont be able to pull herself together in time after being killed by val. Thats why you keep seeing the same loan sharks etc. Or why sir pentious was able to come back after being "killed" by alistor. When the angels kill a sinner, they are fully gone, thats what charlie is trying to stop. Redemption is the means not the goal. Charlie is trying to save her people from being killed by the angels, like she says in her duet with lucifer "I need to save my people more than anything" she doesnt mean she needs to redeem them, she is trying to prevent their deaths. Redeeming oneself and getting into heaven is just an idea charlie had that if it works, saves her people and deals with the overpopulation of hell so the angels dont have to come down and kill anymore. Charlie has no idea what she is doing, but she is trying. She is desperate to get anything to work because, as a hellborn, she is exempt from the exorcists and has to just watch in horror every year as her subjects get killed. Also there is a difference between restitution and redemption which i think is what you were thinking of. Redemption is to change ones ways and sincerely believe that what you had done in the past was wrong and make efforts to not do those things again. Restitution or atonement is doing an act or payment or sacrifice etc to make even the debt you owe for doing something bad to others.
This is the beginning of the climax of the show “you didn’t know” is the best song in the show and will be on my Spotify wrapped this year cuz I listen all the time
Your swim and scuba is close but not quite you forgot to include the reason Better Is charlie os like the person who tries to swim to save someone without learning how to tread water
Glad you got here and got that the theme is more about the system! That wasn't a surprise to me, so I couldn't relate to the problems in the first few. But now, hearing you go through it, I 100% agree with your convo about Charlie. She hasn't made much of an effort to get to know the residents or even learn about their past lives, which you would think would be fundamental to redemption! Angeldust is in Hell because of what he did on earth, not because of Valentino now - so we actually don't know why he's there. Or any of the hotel. I'm hoping we get into that and have Charlie realize this in season 2. I do think you are a little still missing the point - the reason Angel is shown to not doing anything too bad, and the other residents too, is because then you start to question the system. Why aren't they in Heaven? It leads to episode 6, the idea that "Hell is forever" and "Heaven is forever" no matter how you might continue to grow and change beyond the mistakes you made on Earth. If you think about it - Adam was the first to enter heaven, and basically got a free ride because sin didn't really exist back then in the same way. Makes sense he devolved into a complete jerk if no one ever checked his behavior.
hell that's what the hell is forever reprise is all about: if Hell is forever, then Heaven must be a lie, because if angels can do whatever and remain in the sky, the rules are shades of grey.
This guy is trying so fucking hard to hate the show. He finds anything he can to criticize it. Even after Clarus pointed out how Angel Dust was starting to get redeemed he immediately changed the definition of what redemption means 😂😂😂
In hindsight, a show about not being uncompromisingly morally rigid and avoiding in black and white absolute thinking might not have been the best pick for Nerdy
Oof, very true tho especially when you also follow the bookclub. Nerdy has always had an issue of being narrowminded (Clarus is usually far better at having a wider perspective, bless her heart).
I've always felt that at it's core, the show was about the unfairness of eternal damnation for even the most minor of sins as well as being a reflection of real life in that even people who do bad things in real life are often driven to it out of the lack of economic and social support rather than just straight up plain pschopathic desire.
You don't understand why Angel is in hell. In your opinion he hasn't done anything wrong, Charlie thinks the same so she tries to figure out how to make him a "better person" by doing all these stupid exercises and stuff. The problem is that Heaven sees it differently, if you are gay, drug addict or sex worker you are a sinner, and you go to Hell, that's it. So we all understand that Angel is a good person, but not by the Heaven's stupid standards. 🤷
Also, we do know Angel was literally a member of the mob. His life on Earth was probably not a life free from (if not directly committing it, definitely benefitting from) murder and extortion. It's only when he's ended up in hell that he's decided to continue/become a porn star/prostitute.
I'd say tryng to define what redemption actually takes would make for a very narrow view of the show and could accidentally fall into the pitfalls of shaming people for things that aren't their fault or aren't actually villifiable, so it makes sense to have it so NEITHER side actually KNOWS the requirement to get into heaven. For all we know the idea that drinking and sex are somehow sinful are just the big wigs in heaven arbitrarily deciding something's bad just because. I'd ay the conflict wasn't ever about "how do you redeem someone", the conflict was always about "people in power don't believe in this and will violently abuse their power to stamp out any dissenting voice that threatens the core of their power structure" also let face it havign the whole show being charlie talking to characters about redeeming themselves wouldn't fit the vibe of hazbin and wouldn't be that interesting to watch. Especially since charlie doesn't actually know what she should do anyway, since she's never seen anything beyond Hell and so doesn't have a frame of reference for what "being a good person" totally is.
>He named her in heaven? I'm still not positive on if the exorcists are people who were born/created in heaven, or are people who died and went to heaven.
Somewhere there was information that during her life she worked as a prostitute, and then went to a nunnery. apparently people who committed some sins and then prayed for the rest of their lives go to heaven, but they have a condition. and that is why exorcist masks do not have one eye. as if with one eye I see the sins of the world, and with the other I leave blameless.
For me, before the series came out in its entirety, I teorized that Exorcists were God-created angels, created and specially trained and trained to kill demons and punish Sinners. And they, like crazy robots, were too accepting of their work, and when they heard that the idea of redemption could prevent them, that they would be left without work and the meaning of existence, in fact, they would want to destroy the Hotel.
I think it's a fuzzy line but I think you're more discussing arrangement vs redemption. Attorney is trying to make the past actions right but redemption is trying to make your philosophy and mindset better and becoming a better person in your personal philosophy. Also I always felt like he sold his soul when he signed a contract in life to doing whatever they say in the studio and that carried over over hell. But I don't know that just my head-Canon
You guys bring up a lot of good points about how the redemption storyline is abbreviated to a ridiculous degree- I love this show but the pacing and number of episodes is simply not sufficient to tell this story in depth. I think they're relying on the next seasons and fan interpretations to really flesh it all out. Still really love the songs and most of the characters, but they could've used a LOT more breathing room!
According to a post I saw once about this, there was a story outline for season one that had 24 episodes, but the cost of getting all the A list voice actors for that much work just wasn't going to happen.
I think it's kinda wild how much we expect from shows when they first air now. I can't think of any shows that had everything sorted out and perfect execution starting with season 1. Not to say it isn't valid criticism. I do hope we get more episodes in season 2 and that we get to spend more time fleshing things out and it's pacing doesn't get so weird. I just also think that we shouldn't have expected anything else from their first season all things considered.
@@glitterbug5678 My statement was based on several things like having recently watched first seasons of shows that came out in the 90's, with 26 episodes that fully established the characters of 40+ people and the situation at hand! I also compare it to things like A:TLA with 20+ episodes per season and deep, philosophically dense characters even in season 1. If we stop expecting season 1's to be anything more than a long movie-amount of plot and character work then why are we making TV shows? Studios need to receive critique for only ordering 6-10 episode seasons now! In my opinion, anyways.
Even if this show Is not a biblically accurate, its still has a Biblical and Religious references and ideas. 1) In fact, the whole plot of the extermination is very similar to the plot of the Book of Exodus, where Pharaoh ordered the slaughter of the children of the Hebrews in order to reduce their number and avoid rebellion. A similar story is present in the New Testament with King Herod, who ordered the capture of little boys in order to find the King of Kings among them in order to get rid of him and preserve his power and throne. Sera essentially resembles Herod and Pharaoh of the Exodus, then Paradise can be considered as Egypt and Judea. And Sinners as Jews, abandoned by God for 400 years of oppression under the rule of a foreign country. Funnily enough, but in the song Hell is forever, Adam drops the phrase "An eye for an eye", which is just present in the Book of Exodus. It says, "If a man hits his male or FEMALE slave in the eye, and the eye is blinded, he must let the slave go to compensate for the eye" as Adam and Lute did to Vaggie, cut out her wings, her EYE and threw her away, releasing her from service. 2) If we assume that Jesus existed in this universe, this can be understood by St. Peter, one of his Apostles and disciples, then Charlie continues his work, so to speak, but if Jesus worked exclusively with living people, then Charlie is trying to atone and make the Sinners in Hell believe. And in fact, she also has apostles, Vaggie herself, AngelDust, Alastor, Husk, Sir Pentious, Niffty and Cherry Bomb. Lucifer then can be considered as a Joseph and Lilith as a Virgin Mary, because I love to theorize that she after eating a fruit from the Tree of Knowledge become the bearer of the true pure power of good, which was partially passed on to her daughter. And if we take into account the fact that she is formally the granddaughter of God, if one still exists in the universe of this series, then he would not only be glad that such a glimpse appeared in Hell, but it is also possible that he himself contributed to her being born and helped the souls of the dead to be cleansed of sins. And just like Jesus in his ideas, Charlie also has enemies and opponents, Adam and the Exterminators themselves can be seen as Pharisees, who are kind of priests and servants of the Lord, but who are not clean, corrupt and who wanted to kill the righteous man, Jesus himself, seeing in him a threat to their power and influence. Sera can then be seen as Pontius Pilate, who conducts a trial and pronounces a sentence on the further fate of the righteous man. Emily can be considered as Mary Magdalene. And Heaven can be interpreted as the Roman Empire. And if we talk about who will become the new Judas Iscariot, then it will definitely be Alastor, who will betray Charlie and her ideas, but then, perhaps, either sacrifice himself or destroy himself, just as Judas himself, realizing what he did and that he was guilty, committed suicide by hanging himself on a tree. Even the way the Angels, and in particular the Lute, condemn Sinners and at the same time not noticing their own vices or thinking they are right, this is a living illustration of the wisdom of Jesus: "Judge not, lest you be judged." 3) Also, the plot and characters is relatively similar to the Book of Esther, with the plot of how a female ruler from the people who are under the rule of a powerful kingdom, saves her people from destruction and extermination. Charlie and Emily herself - Queen Esther. Sinners - Jews. Angels - Persians. Sera and Lucifer - King Ahasuerus. Lilith - Queen Vashti. Adam - Haman the Agagite. Lucifer and Vaggie - Mordecai. 4) And finally, the very way Charlie tries to guide Sinners to the true and righteous path, this is what many famous prophets of God did, in fact, Moses, Jonah and Elijah. And yes, Heaven can be considered as a monotheistic state, and demons as a pagan idolatrous people. As the Europeans, English, or Spaniards actually treated the native population of America, hating them largely simply for their different faith and for the color of their skin.
I think Charlie's actions are a lot more understandable when you remember she's the daughter of Pride. She believes *she's* the one who can "fix" people. She *is* coming at this from a place of privilege. She's immune to the consequences of her venture failing. It's a demon leading sinners (they're in hell for sinning, regardless of why they did it or how their environments might be responsible) blindly towards her concept of redemption... but everyone else "in charge" is just as flawed as her if not moreso. She is trying to lead others towards embracing their best qualities and being kinder to others, even if her initial venture springs from arrogance and wanting attention from her parents more than altruism. She has as much to learn as any other character.
i would not say she wants to redeem sinners just because she wants to prove herself to her parents. it's true that charlie's dream was inspired by a little bit by lucifer as in the lyrics but we still didn't see her full childhood backstory yet in my opinion and interpretation if you look at closely how lucifer acts and speaks and the story of lucifer in first ep he was forced to only see the darkness of humanity and he probably did not want charlie to experience the same fate. so he probably did not let her interact with sinners for a while until lucifer and lilith got split up. the fact that extermination happens was revealed and it would have made charlie feel guilty even though she was not the one to force extermination on sinners but rather she was exempt juxt because she was hellborn. i agree with some of point you made such as privileged daughter but i kinda disagree with rest of them sorry fot long passages
🤣🤣 ok, I seriously recommend rewatching this show once you've finished it and know what the shows actually about, then rewatch the chat on this because that was GOLD!
15:36 The system isn't broken because the show isn't about redemption. What are you offering? Did Adam have to remain good for thousands of years? This is basically about the fact that if the ones in heaven become bad, then why should it be almost impossible for someone from hell to get into heaven for improving themselves?
You're missing the point slightly, it's not just redemption , it's redemption from sin specifically so actually it is possible to get that kind of redemption in that sense by stopping the sin engaging in personal growth and choosing to be better and in rhat sense it's not about doing harm or perpetrator va victim , it's about the definition of sin and the corrupting influence it can have and how to reverse or better that.
I'm LOVING your guys's discussions about this show. I think this show is fantastic and that theres a lot of thought put into everything which creates rich moments of discussion about the text and you guys are wrestling with the same questions I had while watching it. It's a lot of fun but so much of the lore is expressed in other texts, like Helluva Boss and their social media, etc that its hard to pick up on everything the first time. I have to ask my friend hella questions about the world because shes obsessed and I aint lol. But its so good and so rewarding to really think about.
Redemption hinging on atonement sounds like the Catholic sysyem... You must confess the sin and then make an atonement dictated by a priest. I am not an expert in catholicism, so that could be overly simplified, or flat out incorrect. The protestant redemption is more about asking forgiveness in prayer, repenting, and living a good life going forward. Many people, outside of a religious context, also see redemption as a personal choice situation. But often, they also think that some form or repentant act must also accompany it. Sometimes, that is direct apologies to those whom you have done wrong or seeking virtuous acts such as being dedicated to charity and good works. Some also may feel that redemption can only be accomplished through great acts of selflessness, such as dying while saving the life of another. Funny thing is... If they were the ones in need of that redemption, they would likely find any such demands of an act of atonement in some form, as unfair. Many demand more from others than they would wish to give themselves... For me, I can understand people's desire to demand some form of repentant acts, but often such demands feel like it is motivated by a sense of vengeance and punishment, rather than desire to see someone actually change for the better. An imposing of your will upon another person, via giving them conditions upon which recognition of their sincere efforts to be a better and good person will be acknowledged and accepted.
Even if this show Is not a biblically accurate, its still has a Biblical and Religious references and ideas. 1) In fact, the whole plot of the extermination is very similar to the plot of the Book of Exodus, where Pharaoh ordered the slaughter of the children of the Hebrews in order to reduce their number and avoid rebellion. A similar story is present in the New Testament with King Herod, who ordered the capture of little boys in order to find the King of Kings among them in order to get rid of him and preserve his power and throne. Sera essentially resembles Herod and Pharaoh of the Exodus, then Paradise can be considered as Egypt and Judea. And Sinners as Jews, abandoned by God for 400 years of oppression under the rule of a foreign country. Funnily enough, but in the song Hell is forever, Adam drops the phrase "An eye for an eye", which is just present in the Book of Exodus. It says, "If a man hits his male or FEMALE slave in the eye, and the eye is blinded, he must let the slave go to compensate for the eye" as Adam and Lute did to Vaggie, cut out her wings, her EYE and threw her away, releasing her from service. 2) If we assume that Jesus existed in this universe, this can be understood by St. Peter, one of his Apostles and disciples, then Charlie continues his work, so to speak, but if Jesus worked exclusively with living people, then Charlie is trying to atone and make the Sinners in Hell believe. And in fact, she also has apostles, Vaggie herself, AngelDust, Alastor, Husk, Sir Pentious, Niffty and Cherry Bomb. Lucifer then can be considered as a Joseph and Lilith as a Virgin Mary, because I love to theorize that she after eating a fruit from the Tree of Knowledge become the bearer of the true pure power of good, which was partially passed on to her daughter. And if we take into account the fact that she is formally the granddaughter of God, if one still exists in the universe of this series, then he would not only be glad that such a glimpse appeared in Hell, but it is also possible that he himself contributed to her being born and helped the souls of the dead to be cleansed of sins. And just like Jesus in his ideas, Charlie also has enemies and opponents, Adam and the Exterminators themselves can be seen as Pharisees, who are kind of priests and servants of the Lord, but who are not clean, corrupt and who wanted to kill the righteous man, Jesus himself, seeing in him a threat to their power and influence. Sera can then be seen as Pontius Pilate, who conducts a trial and pronounces a sentence on the further fate of the righteous man. Emily can be considered as Mary Magdalene. And Heaven can be interpreted as the Roman Empire. And if we talk about who will become the new Judas Iscariot, then it will definitely be Alastor, who will betray Charlie and her ideas, but then, perhaps, either sacrifice himself or destroy himself, just as Judas himself, realizing what he did and that he was guilty, committed suicide by hanging himself on a tree. Even the way the Angels, and in particular the Lute, condemn Sinners and at the same time not noticing their own vices or thinking they are right, this is a living illustration of the wisdom of Jesus: "Judge not, lest you be judged." 3) Also, the plot and characters is relatively similar to the Book of Esther, with the plot of how a female ruler from the people who are under the rule of a powerful kingdom, saves her people from destruction and extermination. Charlie and Emily herself - Queen Esther. Sinners - Jews. Angels - Persians. Sera and Lucifer - King Ahasuerus. Lilith - Queen Vashti. Adam - Haman the Agagite. Lucifer and Vaggie - Mordecai. 4) And finally, the very way Charlie tries to guide Sinners to the true and righteous path, this is what many famous prophets of God did, in fact, Moses, Jonah and Elijah. And yes, Heaven can be considered as a monotheistic state, and demons as a pagan idolatrous people. As the Europeans, English, or Spaniards actually treated the native population of America, hating them largely simply for their different faith and for the color of their skin.
Don’t know if you’ll ever see this but your long discussions and break down are VERY appreciated. To hear what your thought processes and ideas on what you perceive the show as are very interesting. Though different from my own, it is interesting to see your own take on the show, and to still see you guys enjoy watching the show for what it is, despite your varied opinions is very important! Hope you guys like the rest of the show❤️ ps. Pls react to helluva boss the predecessor to this show on CZcams that exists in the same hell and explores different rings and some more lore while following a different cast of hellborn characters🙃
Yeah. We know very little about who any of the characters were in life, or how they ended up in Hell. Specifically, I don't think Angel is there because of drinking or being gay, he 100% defends himself from the Sharks in episode 4 and Husk and him were not in the wrong... but he says there that fighting is something he is "good at" along with sex. Likewise, I have no idea why Adam is in Heaven, and it looks like neither does he.
We know everything. Anthony was a member of a gangster family and, as a result, killed, illegally traded and robbed, then began to abuse drugs and brought himself to an overdose and comatosis. But he wasn't a really bad person. He loved his sister, and it was mainly his father who pushed him to do everything. It is not yet known with his brother, but it can be assumed that yes, they had a rivalry. Also, nothing much is known about their mother, but it is possible that everything was fine with her, or she was cruel and criminal. In fact, it is even possible to imagine that Eve and Lilith ate the fruits in this version, but Adam did not. That evil entered into one (Eve) and good into the other (Lilith). Adam, on the other hand, remained on the neutral side and does not know what is good and what is evil, and on the other hand He became a narcissistic person who believed and doubted that he was right. And so, when Lucifer and Lilith were expelled, the Angels, not knowing that there was evil in Eve, sent her and Adam to populate the Earth, believing that they had nothing more to do in Paradise, and so later they gave rise to a sinful generation, which ended in the Flood. And then, of course, up to the present day, to the events of the main plot of the series.
@@MarkMark-lx6gl Well, no. 'We' don't know everything. People watching this show strictly from the lens of the show *only,* do not get most of those details. Expecting reactors to have all of that background information is a bit ridiculous.
@withxoutxlife i admit its the season 1 problem but i've seen an interview where vivziepop said in the next season she will more focus on characters' backstories like we did in helluva boss season 2
The problem is Charlie focusing on the term Redemption (become better people) when the problem she is actually trying to solve is helping sinners Atone in some way to allow them to enter Heaven. Despite the real problem being the societal structure of Hell and the resulting exploitation and suffering. Also, I think alot of the criticism people have of Charlie's character has to do with her inheriting some of her dads narcissistic traits and being seeming raised by her mom isolated from the true nature of Hell and complex suffering of sinners
well agree to disagree. charlie is not selfish rather doesn't understand sinners' lives because she never was a human before and completely sheltered from structure of hell . it's more of parenting and situational problems rather than personal problems. and i think lucifer is not selfish in this version. he gave an apple to eve with good intention without knowing the result it will bring to them. his navity and full of imagination and positiveness definitely passed on to charlie but never selfishness lol. and tbh navity of charlie is a great character flaw that is intended and not many disney movies focus on negative aspects of too much positiveness and just make one dimensional positive character and we can see she learns that especially in ep 4 where she does not force angel to come back and even admits she made a grand mistake.
Even if this show Is not a biblically accurate, its still has a Biblical and Religious references and ideas. 1) In fact, the whole plot of the extermination is very similar to the plot of the Book of Exodus, where Pharaoh ordered the slaughter of the children of the Hebrews in order to reduce their number and avoid rebellion. A similar story is present in the New Testament with King Herod, who ordered the capture of little boys in order to find the King of Kings among them in order to get rid of him and preserve his power and throne. Sera essentially resembles Herod and Pharaoh of the Exodus, then Paradise can be considered as Egypt and Judea. And Sinners as Jews, abandoned by God for 400 years of oppression under the rule of a foreign country. Funnily enough, but in the song Hell is forever, Adam drops the phrase "An eye for an eye", which is just present in the Book of Exodus. It says, "If a man hits his male or FEMALE slave in the eye, and the eye is blinded, he must let the slave go to compensate for the eye" as Adam and Lute did to Vaggie, cut out her wings, her EYE and threw her away, releasing her from service. 2) If we assume that Jesus existed in this universe, this can be understood by St. Peter, one of his Apostles and disciples, then Charlie continues his work, so to speak, but if Jesus worked exclusively with living people, then Charlie is trying to atone and make the Sinners in Hell believe. And in fact, she also has apostles, Vaggie herself, AngelDust, Alastor, Husk, Sir Pentious, Niffty and Cherry Bomb. Lucifer then can be considered as a Joseph and Lilith as a Virgin Mary, because I love to theorize that she after eating a fruit from the Tree of Knowledge become the bearer of the true pure power of good, which was partially passed on to her daughter. And if we take into account the fact that she is formally the granddaughter of God, if one still exists in the universe of this series, then he would not only be glad that such a glimpse appeared in Hell, but it is also possible that he himself contributed to her being born and helped the souls of the dead to be cleansed of sins. And just like Jesus in his ideas, Charlie also has enemies and opponents, Adam and the Exterminators themselves can be seen as Pharisees, who are kind of priests and servants of the Lord, but who are not clean, corrupt and who wanted to kill the righteous man, Jesus himself, seeing in him a threat to their power and influence. Sera can then be seen as Pontius Pilate, who conducts a trial and pronounces a sentence on the further fate of the righteous man. Emily can be considered as Mary Magdalene. And Heaven can be interpreted as the Roman Empire. And if we talk about who will become the new Judas Iscariot, then it will definitely be Alastor, who will betray Charlie and her ideas, but then, perhaps, either sacrifice himself or destroy himself, just as Judas himself, realizing what he did and that he was guilty, committed suicide by hanging himself on a tree. Even the way the Angels, and in particular the Lute, condemn Sinners and at the same time not noticing their own vices or thinking they are right, this is a living illustration of the wisdom of Jesus: "Judge not, lest you be judged." 3) Also, the plot and characters is relatively similar to the Book of Esther, with the plot of how a female ruler from the people who are under the rule of a powerful kingdom, saves her people from destruction and extermination. Charlie and Emily herself - Queen Esther. Sinners - Jews. Angels - Persians. Sera and Lucifer - King Ahasuerus. Lilith - Queen Vashti. Adam - Haman the Agagite. Lucifer and Vaggie - Mordecai. 4) And finally, the very way Charlie tries to guide Sinners to the true and righteous path, this is what many famous prophets of God did, in fact, Moses, Jonah and Elijah. And yes, Heaven can be considered as a monotheistic state, and demons as a pagan idolatrous people. As the Europeans, English, or Spaniards actually treated the native population of America, hating them largely simply for their different faith and for the color of their skin.
Even if this show Is not a biblically accurate, its still has a Biblical and Religious references and ideas. 1) In fact, the whole plot of the extermination is very similar to the plot of the Book of Exodus, where Pharaoh ordered the slaughter of the children of the Hebrews in order to reduce their number and avoid rebellion. A similar story is present in the New Testament with King Herod, who ordered the capture of little boys in order to find the King of Kings among them in order to get rid of him and preserve his power and throne. Sera essentially resembles Herod and Pharaoh of the Exodus, then Paradise can be considered as Egypt and Judea. And Sinners as Jews, abandoned by God for 400 years of oppression under the rule of a foreign country. Funnily enough, but in the song Hell is forever, Adam drops the phrase "An eye for an eye", which is just present in the Book of Exodus. It says, "If a man hits his male or FEMALE slave in the eye, and the eye is blinded, he must let the slave go to compensate for the eye" as Adam and Lute did to Vaggie, cut out her wings, her EYE and threw her away, releasing her from service. 2) If we assume that Jesus existed in this universe, this can be understood by St. Peter, one of his Apostles and disciples, then Charlie continues his work, so to speak, but if Jesus worked exclusively with living people, then Charlie is trying to atone and make the Sinners in Hell believe. And in fact, she also has apostles, Vaggie herself, AngelDust, Alastor, Husk, Sir Pentious, Niffty and Cherry Bomb. Lucifer then can be considered as a Joseph and Lilith as a Virgin Mary, because I love to theorize that she after eating a fruit from the Tree of Knowledge become the bearer of the true pure power of good, which was partially passed on to her daughter. And if we take into account the fact that she is formally the granddaughter of God, if one still exists in the universe of this series, then he would not only be glad that such a glimpse appeared in Hell, but it is also possible that he himself contributed to her being born and helped the souls of the dead to be cleansed of sins. And just like Jesus in his ideas, Charlie also has enemies and opponents, Adam and the Exterminators themselves can be seen as Pharisees, who are kind of priests and servants of the Lord, but who are not clean, corrupt and who wanted to kill the righteous man, Jesus himself, seeing in him a threat to their power and influence. Sera can then be seen as Pontius Pilate, who conducts a trial and pronounces a sentence on the further fate of the righteous man. Emily can be considered as Mary Magdalene. And Heaven can be interpreted as the Roman Empire. And if we talk about who will become the new Judas Iscariot, then it will definitely be Alastor, who will betray Charlie and her ideas, but then, perhaps, either sacrifice himself or destroy himself, just as Judas himself, realizing what he did and that he was guilty, committed suicide by hanging himself on a tree. Even the way the Angels, and in particular the Lute, condemn Sinners and at the same time not noticing their own vices or thinking they are right, this is a living illustration of the wisdom of Jesus: "Judge not, lest you be judged." 3) Also, the plot and characters is relatively similar to the Book of Esther, with the plot of how a female ruler from the people who are under the rule of a powerful kingdom, saves her people from destruction and extermination. Charlie and Emily herself - Queen Esther. Sinners - Jews. Angels - Persians. Sera and Lucifer - King Ahasuerus. Lilith - Queen Vashti. Adam - Haman the Agagite. Lucifer and Vaggie - Mordecai. 4) And finally, the very way Charlie tries to guide Sinners to the true and righteous path, this is what many famous prophets of God did, in fact, Moses, Jonah and Elijah. And yes, Heaven can be considered as a monotheistic state, and demons as a pagan idolatrous people. As the Europeans, English, or Spaniards actually treated the native population of America, hating them largely simply for their different faith and for the color of their skin.
Show has never been about redemption imo, it was always a means to an end. The goal is to stop the extermination. Redemption and the whole Hotel is because Charlie thought the exterminations were caused by overpopulation in Hell and she thought that if she was able to get sinners redeeemed and into Heaven it would stop overpopulation and therefore the exterminations.
Episode 6 might be the most lacking in logic from all episodes. There is absolutely no reason for Sera to allow for that meeting to happen, and that Charlie or Vaggie does not mention extermination at all during the whole time until Adam does is sheer, absolute, shameless plot convenience. Within the plot: extreme luck. Was that what Sera was counting on? Luck? That is why she thought it is a good idea to let the Princess of Hell who wants to stop exterminations come up and speak freely in front of a court full of people who do not know about the exterminations? So stupid!
@@zoeylace4778 I have been thinking a lot and I see no reason for that to happen just like that. Realisticly there is no way the secret would not be compromised. Whatever you think, you must be mistaken.
Honestly? Hard disagree. I love weird scansion in songs (Katy Perry included), which I mention only because you didn't even seem to consider that an option...
So Angel was mafia on earth his brothers are also in hell while his sister is in heaven. And the sinners cant kill eachother, just disembody eachother for a while.
I love the storytelling and comedy of Vivziepop's work, but I've always thought the worldbuilding was pretty lacking. The problem is especially visible in Hazbin, where there's several aspects of the world that you have to piece together from fanon and scraps of information in Helluva Boss. I'll grant Viv a bit of leeway since Amazon absolutely obliterated Hazbin Hotel's pacing by cutting down the episode count, but I *really* hope that aspect picks up next season, assuming we get one.
Fuck it angel dust is not the focus of the show heres a spoiler he doesn't get redeemed by the end youre to focused on angel dust there is an episode about guilt and making up for past deeds and u totally dismissed it by focusing on angel dust
Hypocracy, shades of grey of divine judgement, but no therapy. With people like Adam in this afterlife, who needs redemption? is it real and does it matter within these divine constructs?
The show isn't saying drinking is worse than killing. That's Heaven. To me the show was always about the unfairness of the system, the hypocricy of Heaven, rather than what makes the sinners bad.
Especially on the point of Husk's reaction to Angel- its not about the Action as much as the Intent, which seems to have gotten missed in the post-discussion. Heaven's rules are arbitrary, but Husk's rules are about what Angel's doing for genuine fun, or self defense, etc - vs what angel is doing to self-destruct.
I'd say Husk wasn't being annoyed on the moment at the drugs _themselves_ but at seeing Angel relapse & revert to their behaviour from before they "matured/progressed" during the episode spent together.
Then Angel standing up to Valentino was showing that they had indeed improved.
No for nothing, but you do realize that Charlie was borned and raised in hell, right? The notion of redemption is the very surface things that she has tried doing: trust falls, the role playing saying No to drugs, etc. These are what the basic notions that the Christian religion has tried to impart on us. All that is BS, but Charlie doesn't know any better. She wants her people to not be killed because she was under the assumption that the killing was for overpopulation. So redeeming and getting sinners to Heaven would stop the yearly genocide. At least that's the idea. Again, she knows the basic concepts but she doesn't actually know, it's never done before. She is throwing everything she can think of to the wall and seeing what sticks.
yes i think people forget charlie is literally born in hell.and did not live as human so it's not the same as privileged people who don't want to understand people below them rather it's similar to people who can't understand because of situation
One reason to go to Heaven: koalas are actually huggable and cuddly and won't try to scratch and bite your face off.
I think you're missing the point of going to hell in this show. That is the payment of their sins. The sinners don't have to make up for the past that has already been paid for. They have to show they have improved now from the ppl they were on earth.
Thinking back to Vaggie’s lines in Whatever It Takes, those definitely hit differently now that we have context. “When I saw your face, you made me feel like a stranger in a brand new place, and it felt so good to be understood, there’s so much that I wish I could say.”
So Vaggie’s love language is Acts of Service, which makes sense seeing as she was in the Exorcist army, where you’re literally just trained to follow orders and that’s your whole worth. So for her to lose all that, and then meet Charlie who is possibly the first person to show Vaggie true love and affection, of course she’s going to become undyingly loyal and devoted to her. That’s the only kind of love she knows how to give.
And thats before we get into her making herself into armor/an inanimate object. I think Husk said it best, Vaggie hates herself and, again, a lot of her self worth is tied into being the protector, the spear, the person who will make Charlie’s dreams a reality at the cost of herself if she has to. Which…. Frick me they really need to have a conversation about that, get this girl a therapist, please.
Also, unrelated, but for as much of a shit person as Lute is…. I love her voice. Literally my favorite part of You Didn’t Know. 10/10 have listened to that specific part again and again.
it also makes her line in "best day in hell"(Or whatever the first song is calld i forgor) also inteeresting, where she calls the angels psychotic and depraved (or soemthing)
if I am not mistaken she descibed them as "blood-thirsty and deranged" and it was said un a way that was unclear if she was talking about sinners or angels. I think having that be unclear is so good! and I much perfer her saying that referring to the angels.@@sarafontanini7051
you are in for such a surprise because the whole point gets spelled out in this episode: no one knows how to get into Heaven and redemption is not a part of it
also, on the drugs vs murder thing: Angel and Husk didn't actually kill anyone on episode 4 - demons can only be killed by angelic weapons, which neither of them were using, otherwise they just reform after a while; it's also part of why Alastor is so terrifying
No, they indeed killed them, because the sharks are hellborn and they can be killed - that is explained in Helluva Boss ;)
@@finanightmare1993You can understand a Sinner or a Hellborn by blood. Those who were killed by Angel and Husk had red blood, the same goes for those who attacked the hotel and were killed by Alastor. Those who were shown in Helluva boss was a Hellborn, because their blood was already black.
@@finanightmare1993 its actually unclear if thos were the same sharks as the greed ring's or sinners who just happened to also be sharks in suits.
@@finanightmare1993 No, those sharks were sinners. There are hellborn fish demons but not those guys. They literally are shown again in ep5, they're fine.
@@MarkMark-lx6gl Oh okay, then I got that wrong! Thanks :)
I don't believe this is a spoiler, since this is not stated in the show, but an external medium. Still, worth the warning.
So the show never explicitly states this, but in Velvet's first scene, you can see Valentino literally tearing someone apart limb from limb behind her. Later in that episode, she mentions that it will take some time for the model he attacked to put herself back together. I don't remember if it's a comic or one of the podcasts, but it was confirmed that sinners don't actually die in hell if they're "killed" by normal means. As a sinner, if you die in hell, you just remanifest. Another example of this are the loan sharks (which you could argue are different people) who Angel and Husk kill, but show up in a later episode. The only real way for a sinner to truly die in hell is with the use of angelic weapons, which the exorcists use for the extermination.
As such, while very violent, Angel isn't actually killing anyone for real, so yeah, you could argue that doing drugs and drinking could be considered a higher issue than just "killing" someone.
From episode 1 I did not think this show is about personal redemption. Almost as soon as we met Adam I thought that show was about the system and questioning the concept of what makes a good or bad person in general. I'm not sure why you would think otherwise after seeing him. I an asking genuinely asking because to me the show is not, and never was, about redemption at all. To me Adam is evil. He is sadistic, capricious and lustful. That last one being a mortal sin. So why is he in heaven? I think the show is trying to see people as people, flawed with good and bad in varying amounts in all more alike than many would like to believe. I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong I just don't understand how you got there.
I saw a comment once saying Adam got to Heaven on a technicality; back when he was alive, he basically never got the opportunity to commit any of the Deadly Sins.
He was the only man and was deemed superior to Lilith and Eve by a higher power, so he couldn't really commit the sin of Pride.
Similarly, there was nobody he could be envious of, so that's a no on Envy.
The only other person around him was Eve, who was very literally made to serve him, so how could he ever commit the sin of Wrath against her?
Sloth, he was cast from Eden, and therefore had to pull his own weight to survive, so it's a no on that.
Greed, there was no "material wealth" to seek when he was alive.
Gluttony, same reason as Greed, there was no excess.
Lust, it was him and Eve and nobody else, who would he lust after?
So yeah he was a horrible person, he just never got the chance to show it in life, so he went to Heaven.
The demons can't kill other demons. Not permanently that is. Husk also chose non lethal violence with the sharks before they started shooting.
Correction, they can. But only HellBorn Demons can kill each other. Only Sinners can kill, die and be reborn after that. Only angelic weapons and much higher and more powerful demons, the lords of Hell, as well other powerful beings can finally destroy them.
@@MarkMark-lx6gl it's not relevant in the context of Hazbin. And then it's a whole mess cuz royalty still needs angelic weapons so it's some hellborn, which then leads to the entire hierarchy of hell. It's just a lot for casual viewing and mostly irrelevant to Hazbin
Still not taking the show at face value I feel.
Well maybe they do because in episode 2 they sing a song about "It starts with sorry" and they say "it'll take time to cover my vast multitude of sins, but sorry is where it begins" so maybe they do cover some of their personal issues off camera?
I mean her name is Sera lmao. There’s only two syllables there.
To be fair, Charlie`s weird emphasis on Sera`s name may just be a result of her valleygirl/Mid-Atlantic accent inherited from her father and most likely her mother as well.
You are basically on the idea if the show now.
Charlie wants to make a redemption hotel, but she actually hasn't thought through the details, like what needs to be done to get someone safely into heaven. The shows 1st season has the redemption as a background concept, not the plot. The season 1 plot is about getting heaven's consent and support to redeem someone so they can go to heaven, safe from the extermination, but someone(s) is blocking the way.
Charlie is trying redemption with Angel Dust by first getting him stable so that he doesn't commit sin again and thus damning him further. I think her plan is when he is sinless, then they'll focus on redemption, else, he could f--- up along the way and need to redeem that act too and repeat the cycle.
But yes, Charlie is possibly going by everything the wrong way, sort of like trying selling a half-built car and with no idea if people would want to buy the car.
One of the things you saw this episode is Lute calling Vaggie and Charlie's love vile and blasphemous. This could suggest that only straight people get into heaven, meaning that if Angel is not straight, he'll never get into heaven.
26:30 - So technically it was revealed outside the show years before the show even came out why these characters are in hell, and I think they didn't include it bc they didn't think it was necessary to show why they're there, at least not this season, bc this season is more about setting up the system as a whole being kinda broken.
Permanence is a big thing in Christian mythology, regular people don't get out of hell and don't fall from Heaven. If you're in one you're there forever. Purgatory is the only one that's timed, but that is a Catholic only place that doesn't exist in other versions. Hell and Heaven are meant to be permanent, so they try to focus on why permanence is a problem. Adam acts like your average sinner in Hell, but he gets to stay in Heaven because he got the special pass early on and everyone just has to put up with him. Meanwhile they're trying to show that Angel can act in a selfless manner in Hell, but he's still there despite that.
The question is, twofold. It's not just can Angeldust be redeemed through becoming a better person, it's also, can Adam fall through being an absolute dick.
27:24 - Well, you could argue that one was self-defense, and also I don't believe sinners can die from conventional weapons, they kinda just came back in ep5 like nothing happened to them.
Alastor already said: "There's no undoing what is done"
Hell in the Hazbin Hotel is designed in such a way that sinners can kill each other, but if it is not an angelic weapon, then those killed will be reborn in hell again after some time. so they kill each other all the time and it doesn't mean anything.
and alostor is so famous because he killed several people and they were never reborn in hell.
You're comparing actions of demons to angels and using adam as constant example, but it's quite clearly shown that he is not a regular angel. He's pretty much the golden child. Seraphs are above him but he still doesn't give a shit about their rules, and they can't really do much about it. He's first human, so everyone just needs to roll with whatever he's doing.
There's also the aspect of "Rules for thee but not for me"
Angeldust isn't "who the show is about." It's an ensemble.
Watching the discussion after each episode is frustrating. I'd love to see these huge theme discussions happen at the end of the season, after you've got all the information and the context of the whole story.
They arent entirely wrong. The show is supposed to be an ensemble, but not every character gets the same amount of purpose, screen time, action, and character direction. It shoves to many main characters into focus and does little to nothing of importance with the majority them.
Eh, I don't think there is anything wrong with discussing things as they watch, even if all the pieces aren't there yet. It isn't like they don't change their minds when new information comes to light. I'm sure the post ep 8 conversation is gonna be a long one
@steventaylor546 I know, nothing is wrong, it's just how I feel.
huh? You get triggered by 2 people that are seeing the show 1 episode x week and have no context of what's to come? wha? it's like you saying: "I swear you make me rage every time i want to teach you how to drive" to a child. What do you expect's gonna happen if the kid hasn't yet developed? Well, here's the same. How can you expect you all expert of the "common sense" and "instant-understanding of literature master", for 2 people to understand something that it's yet to come?.
And also, they're not THAT wrong. lmao.
@JsttomM well written. Touché.
Personal redemption is part of the plot, but Charlie has no idea how to achieve that. She has a very childish idea of what goodness is.
The issue is that personal redemption and Heaven’s idea of redemption are not the same. In fact, Heaven doesn’t even know why most people end up there.
The show has multiple goals and themes. Ultimate goal: stop the genocide. Secondary goal: make the hotel inhabitants’ live better and redeem them so that Heaven will be forced to accept them.
Edit: Husk disapproves of Angel’s drug usage because he’s an addict. He cannot be normal about drugs and it is actively bad/harmful to himself.
A lot of the reason Angel is in Hell, ironically, is that he died of an overdose and the comatosis that followed.
I think Nerdy is confused and is thinking a little to hard on it but will ultimately be satisfied by the end
It's because he's hyper focused on an individual and it's the wrong one
I'm sure u know by now, but just in case. People respawn in hell. There 2 or 3 hints, 'angel: "... where do i go, double hell..."in pilot' but it doesn't come out and say it. People only get erased during extermination. Hope that helps unstuck. Love the reactions
When sinners kill eachother, they reform some time after. Velvette refers to it in episode 2 briefly when telling vox that her model wont be able to pull herself together in time after being killed by val. Thats why you keep seeing the same loan sharks etc. Or why sir pentious was able to come back after being "killed" by alistor. When the angels kill a sinner, they are fully gone, thats what charlie is trying to stop. Redemption is the means not the goal. Charlie is trying to save her people from being killed by the angels, like she says in her duet with lucifer "I need to save my people more than anything" she doesnt mean she needs to redeem them, she is trying to prevent their deaths. Redeeming oneself and getting into heaven is just an idea charlie had that if it works, saves her people and deals with the overpopulation of hell so the angels dont have to come down and kill anymore.
Charlie has no idea what she is doing, but she is trying. She is desperate to get anything to work because, as a hellborn, she is exempt from the exorcists and has to just watch in horror every year as her subjects get killed.
Also there is a difference between restitution and redemption which i think is what you were thinking of. Redemption is to change ones ways and sincerely believe that what you had done in the past was wrong and make efforts to not do those things again. Restitution or atonement is doing an act or payment or sacrifice etc to make even the debt you owe for doing something bad to others.
This is the beginning of the climax of the show “you didn’t know” is the best song in the show and will be on my Spotify wrapped this year cuz I listen all the time
Your swim and scuba is close but not quite you forgot to include the reason
Better
Is charlie os like the person who tries to swim to save someone without learning how to tread water
Glad you got here and got that the theme is more about the system! That wasn't a surprise to me, so I couldn't relate to the problems in the first few. But now, hearing you go through it, I 100% agree with your convo about Charlie. She hasn't made much of an effort to get to know the residents or even learn about their past lives, which you would think would be fundamental to redemption! Angeldust is in Hell because of what he did on earth, not because of Valentino now - so we actually don't know why he's there. Or any of the hotel.
I'm hoping we get into that and have Charlie realize this in season 2. I do think you are a little still missing the point - the reason Angel is shown to not doing anything too bad, and the other residents too, is because then you start to question the system. Why aren't they in Heaven? It leads to episode 6, the idea that "Hell is forever" and "Heaven is forever" no matter how you might continue to grow and change beyond the mistakes you made on Earth. If you think about it - Adam was the first to enter heaven, and basically got a free ride because sin didn't really exist back then in the same way. Makes sense he devolved into a complete jerk if no one ever checked his behavior.
hell that's what the hell is forever reprise is all about: if Hell is forever, then Heaven must be a lie, because if angels can do whatever and remain in the sky, the rules are shades of grey.
This guy is trying so fucking hard to hate the show. He finds anything he can to criticize it. Even after Clarus pointed out how Angel Dust was starting to get redeemed he immediately changed the definition of what redemption means 😂😂😂
It feels like he just wants to hate it for some reason
In hindsight, a show about not being uncompromisingly morally rigid and avoiding in black and white absolute thinking might not have been the best pick for Nerdy
Clearly 😭 can't handle the slightest bit of complexity. And this show isn't very complex its easy to understand.
Oof, very true tho especially when you also follow the bookclub. Nerdy has always had an issue of being narrowminded (Clarus is usually far better at having a wider perspective, bless her heart).
I've always felt that at it's core, the show was about the unfairness of eternal damnation for even the most minor of sins as well as being a reflection of real life in that even people who do bad things in real life are often driven to it out of the lack of economic and social support rather than just straight up plain pschopathic desire.
someone made a Good Omens reference in a previous episode. Hazbin is "The Ineffable Plan is BS 2: The Sequel"
You don't understand why Angel is in hell. In your opinion he hasn't done anything wrong, Charlie thinks the same so she tries to figure out how to make him a "better person" by doing all these stupid exercises and stuff. The problem is that Heaven sees it differently, if you are gay, drug addict or sex worker you are a sinner, and you go to Hell, that's it. So we all understand that Angel is a good person, but not by the Heaven's stupid standards. 🤷
Angel isn’t in hell bc hes gay or a sexworker or does drugs. He’s in hell, because he was in the mafia and probably killed people :‘D
Also, we do know Angel was literally a member of the mob. His life on Earth was probably not a life free from (if not directly committing it, definitely benefitting from) murder and extortion. It's only when he's ended up in hell that he's decided to continue/become a porn star/prostitute.
I'd say tryng to define what redemption actually takes would make for a very narrow view of the show and could accidentally fall into the pitfalls of shaming people for things that aren't their fault or aren't actually villifiable, so it makes sense to have it so NEITHER side actually KNOWS the requirement to get into heaven. For all we know the idea that drinking and sex are somehow sinful are just the big wigs in heaven arbitrarily deciding something's bad just because.
I'd ay the conflict wasn't ever about "how do you redeem someone", the conflict was always about "people in power don't believe in this and will violently abuse their power to stamp out any dissenting voice that threatens the core of their power structure"
also let face it havign the whole show being charlie talking to characters about redeeming themselves wouldn't fit the vibe of hazbin and wouldn't be that interesting to watch. Especially since charlie doesn't actually know what she should do anyway, since she's never seen anything beyond Hell and so doesn't have a frame of reference for what "being a good person" totally is.
>He named her in heaven?
I'm still not positive on if the exorcists are people who were born/created in heaven, or are people who died and went to heaven.
Somewhere there was information that during her life she worked as a prostitute, and then went to a nunnery. apparently people who committed some sins and then prayed for the rest of their lives go to heaven, but they have a condition. and that is why exorcist masks do not have one eye. as if with one eye I see the sins of the world, and with the other I leave blameless.
For me, before the series came out in its entirety, I teorized that Exorcists were God-created angels, created and specially trained and trained to kill demons and punish Sinners. And they, like crazy robots, were too accepting of their work, and when they heard that the idea of redemption could prevent them, that they would be left without work and the meaning of existence, in fact, they would want to destroy the Hotel.
I like to think they're all Adam's children which is why lute and exorcist vaggie looked alike Adam being first human gave him special privileges
I think it's a fuzzy line but I think you're more discussing arrangement vs redemption. Attorney is trying to make the past actions right but redemption is trying to make your philosophy and mindset better and becoming a better person in your personal philosophy. Also I always felt like he sold his soul when he signed a contract in life to doing whatever they say in the studio and that carried over over hell. But I don't know that just my head-Canon
You guys bring up a lot of good points about how the redemption storyline is abbreviated to a ridiculous degree- I love this show but the pacing and number of episodes is simply not sufficient to tell this story in depth. I think they're relying on the next seasons and fan interpretations to really flesh it all out. Still really love the songs and most of the characters, but they could've used a LOT more breathing room!
I heard Amazon also cut down their budget to fewer episodes, so I feel like they were kinda forced to squeeze it together, which is a shame
yeah I really, really hope they get more episodes because its really hurting the story and charactrs
According to a post I saw once about this, there was a story outline for season one that had 24 episodes, but the cost of getting all the A list voice actors for that much work just wasn't going to happen.
I think it's kinda wild how much we expect from shows when they first air now. I can't think of any shows that had everything sorted out and perfect execution starting with season 1. Not to say it isn't valid criticism. I do hope we get more episodes in season 2 and that we get to spend more time fleshing things out and it's pacing doesn't get so weird.
I just also think that we shouldn't have expected anything else from their first season all things considered.
@@glitterbug5678 My statement was based on several things like having recently watched first seasons of shows that came out in the 90's, with 26 episodes that fully established the characters of 40+ people and the situation at hand! I also compare it to things like A:TLA with 20+ episodes per season and deep, philosophically dense characters even in season 1. If we stop expecting season 1's to be anything more than a long movie-amount of plot and character work then why are we making TV shows? Studios need to receive critique for only ordering 6-10 episode seasons now!
In my opinion, anyways.
Even if this show Is not a biblically accurate, its still has a Biblical and Religious references and ideas.
1) In fact, the whole plot of the extermination is very similar to the plot of the Book of Exodus, where Pharaoh ordered the slaughter of the children of the Hebrews in order to reduce their number and avoid rebellion. A similar story is present in the New Testament with King Herod, who ordered the capture of little boys in order to find the King of Kings among them in order to get rid of him and preserve his power and throne. Sera essentially resembles Herod and Pharaoh of the Exodus, then Paradise can be considered as Egypt and Judea. And Sinners as Jews, abandoned by God for 400 years of oppression under the rule of a foreign country. Funnily enough, but in the song Hell is forever, Adam drops the phrase "An eye for an eye", which is just present in the Book of Exodus. It says, "If a man hits his male or FEMALE slave in the eye, and the eye is blinded, he must let the slave go to compensate for the eye" as Adam and Lute did to Vaggie, cut out her wings, her EYE and threw her away, releasing her from service.
2) If we assume that Jesus existed in this universe, this can be understood by St. Peter, one of his Apostles and disciples, then Charlie continues his work, so to speak, but if Jesus worked exclusively with living people, then Charlie is trying to atone and make the Sinners in Hell believe. And in fact, she also has apostles, Vaggie herself, AngelDust, Alastor, Husk, Sir Pentious, Niffty and Cherry Bomb. Lucifer then can be considered as a Joseph and Lilith as a Virgin Mary, because I love to theorize that she after eating a fruit from the Tree of Knowledge become the bearer of the true pure power of good, which was partially passed on to her daughter. And if we take into account the fact that she is formally the granddaughter of God, if one still exists in the universe of this series, then he would not only be glad that such a glimpse appeared in Hell, but it is also possible that he himself contributed to her being born and helped the souls of the dead to be cleansed of sins. And just like Jesus in his ideas, Charlie also has enemies and opponents, Adam and the Exterminators themselves can be seen as Pharisees, who are kind of priests and servants of the Lord, but who are not clean, corrupt and who wanted to kill the righteous man, Jesus himself, seeing in him a threat to their power and influence. Sera can then be seen as Pontius Pilate, who conducts a trial and pronounces a sentence on the further fate of the righteous man. Emily can be considered as Mary Magdalene. And Heaven can be interpreted as the Roman Empire. And if we talk about who will become the new Judas Iscariot, then it will definitely be Alastor, who will betray Charlie and her ideas, but then, perhaps, either sacrifice himself or destroy himself, just as Judas himself, realizing what he did and that he was guilty, committed suicide by hanging himself on a tree. Even the way the Angels, and in particular the Lute, condemn Sinners and at the same time not noticing their own vices or thinking they are right, this is a living illustration of the wisdom of Jesus: "Judge not, lest you be judged."
3) Also, the plot and characters is relatively similar to the Book of Esther, with the plot of how a female ruler from the people who are under the rule of a powerful kingdom, saves her people from destruction and extermination. Charlie and Emily herself - Queen Esther. Sinners - Jews. Angels - Persians. Sera and Lucifer - King Ahasuerus. Lilith - Queen Vashti. Adam - Haman the Agagite. Lucifer and Vaggie - Mordecai.
4) And finally, the very way Charlie tries to guide Sinners to the true and righteous path, this is what many famous prophets of God did, in fact, Moses, Jonah and Elijah. And yes, Heaven can be considered as a monotheistic state, and demons as a pagan idolatrous people. As the Europeans, English, or Spaniards actually treated the native population of America, hating them largely simply for their different faith and for the color of their skin.
I think Charlie's actions are a lot more understandable when you remember she's the daughter of Pride. She believes *she's* the one who can "fix" people. She *is* coming at this from a place of privilege. She's immune to the consequences of her venture failing. It's a demon leading sinners (they're in hell for sinning, regardless of why they did it or how their environments might be responsible) blindly towards her concept of redemption... but everyone else "in charge" is just as flawed as her if not moreso. She is trying to lead others towards embracing their best qualities and being kinder to others, even if her initial venture springs from arrogance and wanting attention from her parents more than altruism. She has as much to learn as any other character.
i would not say she wants to redeem sinners just because she wants to prove herself to her parents. it's true that charlie's dream was inspired by a little bit by lucifer as in the lyrics but we still didn't see her full childhood backstory yet
in my opinion and interpretation if you look at closely how lucifer acts and speaks and the story of lucifer in first ep he was forced to only see the darkness of humanity and he probably did not want charlie to experience the same fate. so he probably did not let her interact with sinners for a while until lucifer and lilith got split up. the fact that extermination happens was revealed and it would have made charlie feel guilty even though she was not the one to force extermination on sinners but rather she was exempt juxt because she was hellborn. i agree with some of point you made such as privileged daughter but i kinda disagree with rest of them sorry fot long passages
It hasn't been confirmed, but due to Adam saying he named Vaggie, many people think that the exterminators are heaven born
🤣🤣 ok, I seriously recommend rewatching this show once you've finished it and know what the shows actually about, then rewatch the chat on this because that was GOLD!
15:36 The system isn't broken because the show isn't about redemption. What are you offering? Did Adam have to remain good for thousands of years? This is basically about the fact that if the ones in heaven become bad, then why should it be almost impossible for someone from hell to get into heaven for improving themselves?
What do you think about Emily and Charlie duo is like power word chanting, almost like a spell. Once those are cast, they become reality?
No Nerdy, you can't unr*pe a person.
You're missing the point slightly, it's not just redemption , it's redemption from sin specifically so actually it is possible to get that kind of redemption in that sense by stopping the sin engaging in personal growth and choosing to be better and in rhat sense it's not about doing harm or perpetrator va victim , it's about the definition of sin and the corrupting influence it can have and how to reverse or better that.
I'm LOVING your guys's discussions about this show. I think this show is fantastic and that theres a lot of thought put into everything which creates rich moments of discussion about the text and you guys are wrestling with the same questions I had while watching it. It's a lot of fun but so much of the lore is expressed in other texts, like Helluva Boss and their social media, etc that its hard to pick up on everything the first time. I have to ask my friend hella questions about the world because shes obsessed and I aint lol. But its so good and so rewarding to really think about.
Redemption hinging on atonement sounds like the Catholic sysyem... You must confess the sin and then make an atonement dictated by a priest.
I am not an expert in catholicism, so that could be overly simplified, or flat out incorrect.
The protestant redemption is more about asking forgiveness in prayer, repenting, and living a good life going forward.
Many people, outside of a religious context, also see redemption as a personal choice situation. But often, they also think that some form or repentant act must also accompany it. Sometimes, that is direct apologies to those whom you have done wrong or seeking virtuous acts such as being dedicated to charity and good works.
Some also may feel that redemption can only be accomplished through great acts of selflessness, such as dying while saving the life of another.
Funny thing is... If they were the ones in need of that redemption, they would likely find any such demands of an act of atonement in some form, as unfair. Many demand more from others than they would wish to give themselves...
For me, I can understand people's desire to demand some form of repentant acts, but often such demands feel like it is motivated by a sense of vengeance and punishment, rather than desire to see someone actually change for the better. An imposing of your will upon another person, via giving them conditions upon which recognition of their sincere efforts to be a better and good person will be acknowledged and accepted.
27:44 self defense is based. Even in the Bible
Even if this show Is not a biblically accurate, its still has a Biblical and Religious references and ideas.
1) In fact, the whole plot of the extermination is very similar to the plot of the Book of Exodus, where Pharaoh ordered the slaughter of the children of the Hebrews in order to reduce their number and avoid rebellion. A similar story is present in the New Testament with King Herod, who ordered the capture of little boys in order to find the King of Kings among them in order to get rid of him and preserve his power and throne. Sera essentially resembles Herod and Pharaoh of the Exodus, then Paradise can be considered as Egypt and Judea. And Sinners as Jews, abandoned by God for 400 years of oppression under the rule of a foreign country. Funnily enough, but in the song Hell is forever, Adam drops the phrase "An eye for an eye", which is just present in the Book of Exodus. It says, "If a man hits his male or FEMALE slave in the eye, and the eye is blinded, he must let the slave go to compensate for the eye" as Adam and Lute did to Vaggie, cut out her wings, her EYE and threw her away, releasing her from service.
2) If we assume that Jesus existed in this universe, this can be understood by St. Peter, one of his Apostles and disciples, then Charlie continues his work, so to speak, but if Jesus worked exclusively with living people, then Charlie is trying to atone and make the Sinners in Hell believe. And in fact, she also has apostles, Vaggie herself, AngelDust, Alastor, Husk, Sir Pentious, Niffty and Cherry Bomb. Lucifer then can be considered as a Joseph and Lilith as a Virgin Mary, because I love to theorize that she after eating a fruit from the Tree of Knowledge become the bearer of the true pure power of good, which was partially passed on to her daughter. And if we take into account the fact that she is formally the granddaughter of God, if one still exists in the universe of this series, then he would not only be glad that such a glimpse appeared in Hell, but it is also possible that he himself contributed to her being born and helped the souls of the dead to be cleansed of sins. And just like Jesus in his ideas, Charlie also has enemies and opponents, Adam and the Exterminators themselves can be seen as Pharisees, who are kind of priests and servants of the Lord, but who are not clean, corrupt and who wanted to kill the righteous man, Jesus himself, seeing in him a threat to their power and influence. Sera can then be seen as Pontius Pilate, who conducts a trial and pronounces a sentence on the further fate of the righteous man. Emily can be considered as Mary Magdalene. And Heaven can be interpreted as the Roman Empire. And if we talk about who will become the new Judas Iscariot, then it will definitely be Alastor, who will betray Charlie and her ideas, but then, perhaps, either sacrifice himself or destroy himself, just as Judas himself, realizing what he did and that he was guilty, committed suicide by hanging himself on a tree. Even the way the Angels, and in particular the Lute, condemn Sinners and at the same time not noticing their own vices or thinking they are right, this is a living illustration of the wisdom of Jesus: "Judge not, lest you be judged."
3) Also, the plot and characters is relatively similar to the Book of Esther, with the plot of how a female ruler from the people who are under the rule of a powerful kingdom, saves her people from destruction and extermination. Charlie and Emily herself - Queen Esther. Sinners - Jews. Angels - Persians. Sera and Lucifer - King Ahasuerus. Lilith - Queen Vashti. Adam - Haman the Agagite. Lucifer and Vaggie - Mordecai.
4) And finally, the very way Charlie tries to guide Sinners to the true and righteous path, this is what many famous prophets of God did, in fact, Moses, Jonah and Elijah. And yes, Heaven can be considered as a monotheistic state, and demons as a pagan idolatrous people. As the Europeans, English, or Spaniards actually treated the native population of America, hating them largely simply for their different faith and for the color of their skin.
FINALLY someone gets the _School of Rock_ reference!!
love their end conversations
Angelic weapons are the only way to permanently kill sinners, they eventually come back if killed by any other way
Don’t know if you’ll ever see this but your long discussions and break down are VERY appreciated. To hear what your thought processes and ideas on what you perceive the show as are very interesting. Though different from my own, it is interesting to see your own take on the show, and to still see you guys enjoy watching the show for what it is, despite your varied opinions is very important! Hope you guys like the rest of the show❤️ ps. Pls react to helluva boss the predecessor to this show on CZcams that exists in the same hell and explores different rings and some more lore while following a different cast of hellborn characters🙃
Emily and Charlie dropping bars like boss! More please!
Yeah. We know very little about who any of the characters were in life, or how they ended up in Hell. Specifically, I don't think Angel is there because of drinking or being gay, he 100% defends himself from the Sharks in episode 4 and Husk and him were not in the wrong... but he says there that fighting is something he is "good at" along with sex. Likewise, I have no idea why Adam is in Heaven, and it looks like neither does he.
We know everything. Anthony was a member of a gangster family and, as a result, killed, illegally traded and robbed, then began to abuse drugs and brought himself to an overdose and comatosis. But he wasn't a really bad person. He loved his sister, and it was mainly his father who pushed him to do everything. It is not yet known with his brother, but it can be assumed that yes, they had a rivalry. Also, nothing much is known about their mother, but it is possible that everything was fine with her, or she was cruel and criminal.
In fact, it is even possible to imagine that Eve and Lilith ate the fruits in this version, but Adam did not. That evil entered into one (Eve) and good into the other (Lilith). Adam, on the other hand, remained on the neutral side and does not know what is good and what is evil, and on the other hand He became a narcissistic person who believed and doubted that he was right. And so, when Lucifer and Lilith were expelled, the Angels, not knowing that there was evil in Eve, sent her and Adam to populate the Earth, believing that they had nothing more to do in Paradise, and so later they gave rise to a sinful generation, which ended in the Flood. And then, of course, up to the present day, to the events of the main plot of the series.
@@MarkMark-lx6gl Well, no. 'We' don't know everything. People watching this show strictly from the lens of the show *only,* do not get most of those details. Expecting reactors to have all of that background information is a bit ridiculous.
@withxoutxlife i admit its the season 1 problem but i've seen an interview where vivziepop said in the next season she will more focus on characters' backstories like we did in helluva boss season 2
16:55 Christian sins most likely do not look this way. God, you can only go to hell because you committed suicide. Here's how to look
Charlies never sinned she was hellborn
The problem is Charlie focusing on the term Redemption (become better people) when the problem she is actually trying to solve is helping sinners Atone in some way to allow them to enter Heaven. Despite the real problem being the societal structure of Hell and the resulting exploitation and suffering.
Also, I think alot of the criticism people have of Charlie's character has to do with her inheriting some of her dads narcissistic traits and being seeming raised by her mom isolated from the true nature of Hell and complex suffering of sinners
well agree to disagree. charlie is not selfish rather doesn't understand sinners' lives because she never was a human before and completely sheltered from structure of hell . it's more of parenting and situational problems rather than personal problems. and i think lucifer is not selfish in this version. he gave an apple to eve with good intention without knowing the result it will bring to them. his navity and full of imagination and positiveness definitely passed on to charlie but never selfishness lol. and tbh navity of charlie is a great character flaw that is intended and not many disney movies focus on negative aspects of too much positiveness and just make one dimensional positive character
and we can see she learns that especially in ep 4 where she does not force angel to come back and even admits she made a grand mistake.
I feel like this was the episode you needed to see 😊
The show its a big analogy tho ...
People in heaven its priviliged and yup hipócrita
Even if this show Is not a biblically accurate, its still has a Biblical and Religious references and ideas.
1) In fact, the whole plot of the extermination is very similar to the plot of the Book of Exodus, where Pharaoh ordered the slaughter of the children of the Hebrews in order to reduce their number and avoid rebellion. A similar story is present in the New Testament with King Herod, who ordered the capture of little boys in order to find the King of Kings among them in order to get rid of him and preserve his power and throne. Sera essentially resembles Herod and Pharaoh of the Exodus, then Paradise can be considered as Egypt and Judea. And Sinners as Jews, abandoned by God for 400 years of oppression under the rule of a foreign country. Funnily enough, but in the song Hell is forever, Adam drops the phrase "An eye for an eye", which is just present in the Book of Exodus. It says, "If a man hits his male or FEMALE slave in the eye, and the eye is blinded, he must let the slave go to compensate for the eye" as Adam and Lute did to Vaggie, cut out her wings, her EYE and threw her away, releasing her from service.
2) If we assume that Jesus existed in this universe, this can be understood by St. Peter, one of his Apostles and disciples, then Charlie continues his work, so to speak, but if Jesus worked exclusively with living people, then Charlie is trying to atone and make the Sinners in Hell believe. And in fact, she also has apostles, Vaggie herself, AngelDust, Alastor, Husk, Sir Pentious, Niffty and Cherry Bomb. Lucifer then can be considered as a Joseph and Lilith as a Virgin Mary, because I love to theorize that she after eating a fruit from the Tree of Knowledge become the bearer of the true pure power of good, which was partially passed on to her daughter. And if we take into account the fact that she is formally the granddaughter of God, if one still exists in the universe of this series, then he would not only be glad that such a glimpse appeared in Hell, but it is also possible that he himself contributed to her being born and helped the souls of the dead to be cleansed of sins. And just like Jesus in his ideas, Charlie also has enemies and opponents, Adam and the Exterminators themselves can be seen as Pharisees, who are kind of priests and servants of the Lord, but who are not clean, corrupt and who wanted to kill the righteous man, Jesus himself, seeing in him a threat to their power and influence. Sera can then be seen as Pontius Pilate, who conducts a trial and pronounces a sentence on the further fate of the righteous man. Emily can be considered as Mary Magdalene. And Heaven can be interpreted as the Roman Empire. And if we talk about who will become the new Judas Iscariot, then it will definitely be Alastor, who will betray Charlie and her ideas, but then, perhaps, either sacrifice himself or destroy himself, just as Judas himself, realizing what he did and that he was guilty, committed suicide by hanging himself on a tree. Even the way the Angels, and in particular the Lute, condemn Sinners and at the same time not noticing their own vices or thinking they are right, this is a living illustration of the wisdom of Jesus: "Judge not, lest you be judged."
3) Also, the plot and characters is relatively similar to the Book of Esther, with the plot of how a female ruler from the people who are under the rule of a powerful kingdom, saves her people from destruction and extermination. Charlie and Emily herself - Queen Esther. Sinners - Jews. Angels - Persians. Sera and Lucifer - King Ahasuerus. Lilith - Queen Vashti. Adam - Haman the Agagite. Lucifer and Vaggie - Mordecai.
4) And finally, the very way Charlie tries to guide Sinners to the true and righteous path, this is what many famous prophets of God did, in fact, Moses, Jonah and Elijah. And yes, Heaven can be considered as a monotheistic state, and demons as a pagan idolatrous people. As the Europeans, English, or Spaniards actually treated the native population of America, hating them largely simply for their different faith and for the color of their skin.
@@MarkMark-lx6gl i mean yeah ...i was only meaning that people dont usually get that its an analogy xD and they expect to be more uh "literal"
Redemption has not been thrown out as a theme yet. Still more episodes and seasons to go.
She's emphasize sarra because she's mad it's clench singing
I had zero intentions of watching this show until y’all started this and now I’ve watched the entire thing every day for the past week 🤦🏼♀️.
The show is about redemption i think, but it isn’t the focus of season 1. But you will see you will get some hints about it later.
Even if this show Is not a biblically accurate, its still has a Biblical and Religious references and ideas.
1) In fact, the whole plot of the extermination is very similar to the plot of the Book of Exodus, where Pharaoh ordered the slaughter of the children of the Hebrews in order to reduce their number and avoid rebellion. A similar story is present in the New Testament with King Herod, who ordered the capture of little boys in order to find the King of Kings among them in order to get rid of him and preserve his power and throne. Sera essentially resembles Herod and Pharaoh of the Exodus, then Paradise can be considered as Egypt and Judea. And Sinners as Jews, abandoned by God for 400 years of oppression under the rule of a foreign country. Funnily enough, but in the song Hell is forever, Adam drops the phrase "An eye for an eye", which is just present in the Book of Exodus. It says, "If a man hits his male or FEMALE slave in the eye, and the eye is blinded, he must let the slave go to compensate for the eye" as Adam and Lute did to Vaggie, cut out her wings, her EYE and threw her away, releasing her from service.
2) If we assume that Jesus existed in this universe, this can be understood by St. Peter, one of his Apostles and disciples, then Charlie continues his work, so to speak, but if Jesus worked exclusively with living people, then Charlie is trying to atone and make the Sinners in Hell believe. And in fact, she also has apostles, Vaggie herself, AngelDust, Alastor, Husk, Sir Pentious, Niffty and Cherry Bomb. Lucifer then can be considered as a Joseph and Lilith as a Virgin Mary, because I love to theorize that she after eating a fruit from the Tree of Knowledge become the bearer of the true pure power of good, which was partially passed on to her daughter. And if we take into account the fact that she is formally the granddaughter of God, if one still exists in the universe of this series, then he would not only be glad that such a glimpse appeared in Hell, but it is also possible that he himself contributed to her being born and helped the souls of the dead to be cleansed of sins. And just like Jesus in his ideas, Charlie also has enemies and opponents, Adam and the Exterminators themselves can be seen as Pharisees, who are kind of priests and servants of the Lord, but who are not clean, corrupt and who wanted to kill the righteous man, Jesus himself, seeing in him a threat to their power and influence. Sera can then be seen as Pontius Pilate, who conducts a trial and pronounces a sentence on the further fate of the righteous man. Emily can be considered as Mary Magdalene. And Heaven can be interpreted as the Roman Empire. And if we talk about who will become the new Judas Iscariot, then it will definitely be Alastor, who will betray Charlie and her ideas, but then, perhaps, either sacrifice himself or destroy himself, just as Judas himself, realizing what he did and that he was guilty, committed suicide by hanging himself on a tree. Even the way the Angels, and in particular the Lute, condemn Sinners and at the same time not noticing their own vices or thinking they are right, this is a living illustration of the wisdom of Jesus: "Judge not, lest you be judged."
3) Also, the plot and characters is relatively similar to the Book of Esther, with the plot of how a female ruler from the people who are under the rule of a powerful kingdom, saves her people from destruction and extermination. Charlie and Emily herself - Queen Esther. Sinners - Jews. Angels - Persians. Sera and Lucifer - King Ahasuerus. Lilith - Queen Vashti. Adam - Haman the Agagite. Lucifer and Vaggie - Mordecai.
4) And finally, the very way Charlie tries to guide Sinners to the true and righteous path, this is what many famous prophets of God did, in fact, Moses, Jonah and Elijah. And yes, Heaven can be considered as a monotheistic state, and demons as a pagan idolatrous people. As the Europeans, English, or Spaniards actually treated the native population of America, hating them largely simply for their different faith and for the color of their skin.
Show has never been about redemption imo, it was always a means to an end. The goal is to stop the extermination. Redemption and the whole Hotel is because Charlie thought the exterminations were caused by overpopulation in Hell and she thought that if she was able to get sinners redeeemed and into Heaven it would stop overpopulation and therefore the exterminations.
Episode 6 might be the most lacking in logic from all episodes. There is absolutely no reason for Sera to allow for that meeting to happen, and that Charlie or Vaggie does not mention extermination at all during the whole time until Adam does is sheer, absolute, shameless plot convenience. Within the plot: extreme luck. Was that what Sera was counting on? Luck? That is why she thought it is a good idea to let the Princess of Hell who wants to stop exterminations come up and speak freely in front of a court full of people who do not know about the exterminations? So stupid!
Think for 2 seconds and maybe you'll pick up on it
@@zoeylace4778 I have been thinking a lot and I see no reason for that to happen just like that. Realisticly there is no way the secret would not be compromised. Whatever you think, you must be mistaken.
We don't see them on earth
Honestly? Hard disagree. I love weird scansion in songs (Katy Perry included), which I mention only because you didn't even seem to consider that an option...
Yeah it's purely a subjective thing. I'm happy you enjoy it, just doesn't hit my ear well personally
Helluva boss mentioned.❤ would love to see a reaction to that as well❤️
@13:00 "The wrong emPHASis on the wrong sylLABle" czcams.com/video/pmh_6z9AWfc/video.html
He's missing the emotion she's clenching her teeth to emphasize she's angry at sarra not to emphasize a syllable in a song
Also small nitpick charlie was on the stand adam wasnt so who cares if he swears
Having seen the show around minute 27😏😏😏😏
your criticism of charlie is so off base
Youre too focused on the individual and the individuals u focus are the wrong people
So Angel was mafia on earth his brothers are also in hell while his sister is in heaven. And the sinners cant kill eachother, just disembody eachother for a while.
I love the storytelling and comedy of Vivziepop's work, but I've always thought the worldbuilding was pretty lacking. The problem is especially visible in Hazbin, where there's several aspects of the world that you have to piece together from fanon and scraps of information in Helluva Boss. I'll grant Viv a bit of leeway since Amazon absolutely obliterated Hazbin Hotel's pacing by cutting down the episode count, but I *really* hope that aspect picks up next season, assuming we get one.
Fuck it angel dust is not the focus of the show heres a spoiler he doesn't get redeemed by the end youre to focused on angel dust there is an episode about guilt and making up for past deeds and u totally dismissed it by focusing on angel dust
Reaction a godzilla minus one
Hypocracy, shades of grey of divine judgement, but no therapy. With people like Adam in this afterlife, who needs redemption? is it real and does it matter within these divine constructs?