Rescuing Isaiah 10 from Leighton Flowers
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- čas přidán 25. 07. 2024
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That axe swung itself...
👌🏻😂
The Wolf comes dressed as a sheep. That's why the low voice and the music.
Thank you James White!!! What an amazing video! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
This video was 🔥. Especially the voice! 😆
Leighton doesn't understand we see blessing in HIS judgment. as an Assyrian living today, poor, destitute, homeless, for 2612 years knowing our own evil, HIS judgment that destroyed us has become the single biggest blessing from HIM. We believe. God did it. He destroyed Nineveh. Glory to HIM. We are the vagabonds of history, Assyrians.
I’m also Assyrian! (Reformed Baptist) Praise God for your salvation! :)
@@SavedBySweetGrace awesome
Spot on with the voice James!!!😂😂😂😂
I almost fell off my chair laughing at 10:37 - what a great announcer's voice.
Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Interesting passage, thank you for this scripture!
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
@@guillermodominguez8643
The Hebrew word ra' refers to more than just natural calamities. God is in control of wars and other moral evils.
7451 רַע, רַע [raʿ /rah/] adj n m f. From 7489; TWOT 2191a, 2191c; GK 8273 and 8274; 663 occurrences; AV translates as “evil” 442 times, “wickedness” 59 times, “wicked” 25 times, “mischief” 21 times, “hurt” 20 times, “bad” 13 times, “trouble” 10 times, “sore” nine times, “affliction” six times, “ill” five times, “adversity” four times, “favoured” three times, “harm” three times, “naught” three times, “noisome” twice, “grievous” twice, “sad” twice, and translated miscellaneously 34 times. 1 bad, evil. 1A bad, disagreeable, malignant. 1B bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery). 1C evil, displeasing. 1D bad (of its kind-land, water, etc). 1E bad (of value). 1F worse than, worst (comparison). 1G sad, unhappy. 1H evil (hurtful). 1I bad, unkind (vicious in disposition). 1J bad, evil, wicked (ethically). 1J1 in general, of persons, of thoughts. 1J2 deeds, actions. 2 evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity. 2A evil, distress, adversity. 2B evil, injury, wrong. 2C evil (ethical). 3 evil, misery, distress, injury. 3A evil, misery, distress. 3B evil, injury, wrong. 3C evil (ethical).
adj adj: adjective
n n: noun
m m: masculine
f f: feminine
TWOT Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament
GK Goodrick-Kohlenberger
AV Authorized Version
Strong, James. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon 1995: n. pag. Print.
@@guillermodominguez8643
Flowers doesn’t fully understand the meaning of Holiness of God
I like how the music is softly playing during Flowers’ speaking, makes even the unpalatable palatable.
Permitted to libertarian free-will?? God can’t permite if man is free he wouldn’t be able to stop thus not able to permit
I can’t listen to that voice of flowers 🌸. Lord forgive me
listening again to the Romans 9 debate with flowers... the booming voice and confusing maze of his "exergesis" which brings in 100 mph jingle jangle doggerel, quotes n explanations of other authors, like boettner, everything thrown in except Scripture alone to refute calvinistic viewpoint of Romans 9.....sent a chill through me with the thought... is he a prototype (being nice) or the real entity of of 2Corn11.15?? And now this voice, with backgrd music again questioning the Word of God in a very oily, slick, trance-like voice.
Thank you!!!
Imagine doing everything in your power, time and effort your whole life to refute the Monergistic theology, then in the end you find yourself wrong. Everything will be in vain for Dr. Flowers. This is sad.
What's sad is that you calvinites blaspheme God by making Him the origin of all evil, and in the end find yourself wrong after it's too late.
@@johndisalvo6283 Whoa, Johnny slow down there.
PROvisionism is a soft served version of Open Theism. Maybe study up a bit.
@@pateunuchity884 What makes you think that God doesn’t know the future? Maybe that tiny little Calvinist god of yours doesn’t, but mine does!!
Leighton just laughs when people think the podcast is all he does. He would probably laugh at your comment too.
@john disalvo
God being the author if evil is only wrong if you DON'T use God standard from His words, judging by your own creaturely standard.
1. God created man knowing they will sin.
2. Man is responsible for the sin they commit.
God's standard, not man's.
Rejecting God's word is dangerous and should be cast out.
God being the author of sin does NOT change who God is not Man's sinful nature.
lol....great radio voice! what were you talking about?
So funny when you do that voice JW. Haha
I don't trust Flowers in his exegesis. He is very man centered.
The man can't exegete the ingredients off a can of Coca-Cola. I've seen him debate and watched his channel. He doesn't speak, read, or write any ancient language. I don't either but I don't claim to be an academic in the subject. In his debates and discussions, he ignores the actual text and inserts what he THINKS the writer meant. You should see what he did with John 3:16. Amazing!
@blchamblisscscp8476 I'd luv to see you debate him live
So your saying God causes evil?
I wish James white had a commentary set
Is he your superhero?
what for, how many lies do you want to hear.
Leighton’s God seems to be walking within time and bound to his creation. His God is surprised and doesn’t know the hearts of all men. Dynamic omniscience is the conclusion.
James White God, seems to not be powerful enough to grant free will and still be in control, and his sons atonement on the cross, seems to be weak and limited, instead of for all and whosoever.
@@Tigerex966 Panentheism and Open Theism are byproducts of the poor teachings of Leighton Flowers on Soteriology 101.
@@Tigerex966 That's not the Calvinist position, my friend. We don't believe man has free will (not because we think God isn't powerful enough to still be in control) because we see the Scriptures define man's will as being enslaved to sin (slaves are not free and cannot choose to be free) and our will operates only on our fallen nature. Our nature determines the activity of the will. A sinner who hates God and loves their sin will choose their sin everytime.
Second, our view of the atonement is better described as Particular Redemption. In other words, Christ's atonement for sin was for a particular group of individuals whom God elected before the foundations of the world. Christ actually accomplished redemption rather than making redemption possible for those who do their part in choosing God.
@@Tigerex966 when you say "free will" what does that mean? Calvinists can affirm free will, meaning you do what you want to do. It's also unclear by what you mean by "in control".
@@danielomitted1867 if they do what they want to do and there wanter is determined by another or God its not free will.
It would be Gods will or another's and Then God or another should be judged instead.
For instance God is not willing thAt Any should perish.
But they do and will because they have free will not determined by God and often in conflict with God and then are judge accordingly. And justly.
Because its their free will choice alone not Gods or Satan's so only.then can they be judged righteously.
If someone else determines their will whether they wAnt to do or or not then that person not them needs to be judged. Pure common sense logic and biblically based truth.
since jeroboam 2nd died in 748BC and Jonah preached to Ninevah in the reign of Jeroboam, maybe the assyrians were not as reprobate as the northern Kingdom which fell in 722
But doesn't the Provisionist view teach man can have freewill but God cannot?
So Leighton denies God "knowing" the beginning from the end, then what does he do with (Isa 46:10) LOL Ya God can't get anythings He wants, Leighton is so proud of himself,
Flowers should/could make common cause with Copeland. The Arminian/Provisionist-WordFaith case: God had to wait on man's permission before He could act. Man is free, God is not free. God is bound by what man decrees for himself. If God is to take any action, He has to wait until man gets in the right position, and even then, whatever God plans must be planned after He learns what man will do. Both are open theists and universalists whether they realize it or not.
sa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Provisionalism has a little god who cannot do anything about evil.
Did I miss 'incite'? I'll have to go back and check the Hebrew on that. 😆
PTL
Flowers Hemlock needs to be exchanged for a TULIP
Provisionist believe in a God who depends on sheer luck to accomplish his purposes. Sorry but luck runs out at some point :P
White's sarcasm is humorous! That axe swung itself lol
You,
Sorry but luck runs out at some point :P
Me,
Does that mean you believe in luck too?
@@livingforjesus8551 There is no such thing as luck
@@4jchan
I know, but you made it sound like there was with that statement.
The difference is that Mr. White, you believe that God is the author of their iniquity, while we believe that God uses them as vessels of dishonor to fulfill His purpose and plan.
You have God determining them to be vessels of wrath while we see God using their fallenness to bring about His plan and purpose.
Did God create you to be a vessel of mercy?
Or do you determine your own destiny?
@Vampyrekai Vessels of mercy are who God says we are, it would be good if you knew who.
1 Timothy 1:13
“Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.”
God has mercy on sinners, or those willing or able to confess themselves as sinners.
Luke 5:32
King James Version
32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
@@MyRoBeRtBaKeR You didn't answer my question.
Did God create you specifically to be a Vessel of Mercy?
Or did you make yourself a vessel of mercy? Do you determine your own destiny?
@Vampyrekai I answered your question you just can't hear.
God is the potter, and He designates which vessel is for which purpose, not man.
The answer to what vessels are what, vessels of mercy are sinners.
If they confess their sins God is just to forgive and to save these sinners.
God resists the proud but gives grace unto the humble.
@@MyRoBeRtBaKeR I hear you just fine.
How are these sinners able to be so humble? What gives them the capacity to repent and confess their sins? Are they just better people than those who don't?
I thought Romans 3 and 8 make it clear that None are good and none seek for God and are incapable of doing anything pleasing to God because they are in the flesh (slaves to sin).
Wait…so isn’t God’s restraint of the Assyrians in order to protect Israel a violation of the Assyrians free will? Why, yes. Yes it is
8:40 Wait, so you think that God made the Assyrians evil fot the sake of the Jews? God's plan does not CAUSE evil, but he USES evil for his plan. And this makes him entirely sovereign because even if you rebel, he will still find a way.
I think this is a wonderful opportunity for conversation so please don't take this as antagonistic, but how do you describe "entirely sovereign"? Because to me entirely would include the entirety of reality.
@@ethanmulvihill7177 Being entirely sovereign means that he has power over everything and that he can interject himself in reality at anytime. He can be in multiple places at once, he can take your life and he can move anything in the universe.
Such a strange video by LF
Flowers spends WAY too much time tearing down a theological lens of his brothers and sisters. Regardless of if he is wrong or right, he truly hates Calvinism and wants everyone to turn away from it. Which is terribly sad
I used to love listening to him pawning the calvinists
now, I recognize his terrible exegesis and his obsession with disproving calvinism
Leighton Flowers is a flaming heretic on his way to everlasting perdition. He is a slightly less obvious version of Andy Stanley.
@@tomtemple69Praise God for illuminating your mind to what the Bible says. Pray for me. Been trying to "reform" my extended family for years.
Does he believe Gods plans/ decrees could or can fail?
no he believes God decreed man have free will to choose, not that God chooses for man, and that Jesus died for all, and gave all mankind the provision to accept or reject Jesus, without God determining what they would do before they were born.
He thinks those are the decrees, not meticulous determinism of everything.
@@Tigerex966 could you show me those decrees in scripture
.
@@SolaScriptura21 from Genesis to Revelation, that;s the story of the bible.
Mankind disobeyed, not because God decreed they do that.
But God decreed they can make their own choices and they did, his all knowledge and power, already had a redemption plan in place, and that is Jesus Christ.
Through belief in him, which we all have the ability to do after hearing the word, we can be reconciled.
Not by election, but by faith, through grace.
I would say start at the book of John, and I think you will get it
@@Tigerex966 ok, I will read John. Are these decrees given in the book of John?
Every time I hear Leighton Flowers speak, Luther's images of either a Jackass playing pipes or a Sow with a Harp come to mind.
After checking out your homepage with all those books, all I pictured was an educated jackass without the pipes!!
That was really disrespectful and mean and uncalled for.
@@Tigerex966Maybe it was but maybe it wasn't.
After a year of further information do you still hold the same opinion?
@@robertknight3354 yes
@@Tigerex966 oh. We're you here as a Flowers fan?
@21:00 is Leighton Flowers an Open Theist? It seems like it's the way he is heading. I know there are quite a few people within that group that are Pelagian if not close to it and even Open Theist, I was in the group, most of them claimed to be Molinist.
@Biblical Theology
Looking at the stream of thought and the litter floating in his comments section.
Um, yeah...even though he declares his Molinistic tendencies and love of Boethius all of his followers seems to hear OT when he talks. The tractor beam is initiated. Greg Boyd called and he wants his followers back. 😉
Honestly, it is a middle ground toward more orthodox beliefs. If they are climbing out of the OT cruise ship and into Flowers dinghy then I guess it is a bit better. Still, they should look for lighthouses and solid ground before a storm.
@@pateunuchity884 Anyone who puts up his picture with a MASK on can't be playing with a full deck, but that's a Calvinite for ya!
All these false assertions about Flowers coming from an Augustinian Manichaean Gnostic!!! REALLY???
@@johndisalvo6283 No, I didn't say Flowers is an Open Theist, but said that's where he may be heading and I could be wrong.
As for your accusations against St. Augustine in his soteriology was a Gnostic and Manichaean please provide evidence that Augustine in his soteriology and view of God was influenced by those groups, you make the claim, you provide the evidence.
@@reformedcatholic457 It's common knowledge Augustine was a Manichaean for many years before joining Christianity, taking with him Gnostic Determinism into his new found religion. Even HONEST Calvinites will admit this fact, if there are any left. Do your own history. Just Google it. The first 400 years of the church there was no Monergism. Even Lorraine Boettener acknowledges this.
I'm coming for you all!
Lol I love the meme
You also have the problem, if you start talking about those who cannot accept calvinism because they can't comprehend it, that calvinists can't accept a different view because they can't comprehend it. It works both ways. Calvinists are also finite beings, so why should I accept their view as being more wise and understanding of the mind and methods of God, especially if I do not see it in Scripture?
These philisophical arguements will not convince.
Predestination is literally in the Bible.
The Elect are God's Chosen people. Again, this is biblical language. God's Sovereignty over salvation is ubiquitous throughout the entire Bible. Read Ephesians 1 and 2/ 1 Corinthians 1 and 2/ Romans 8 and 9/ Psalm 139/ John 6, 10 and 17... I could go on...
Ignore Philosophical arguments. Just read the Bible and it says exactly what Calvinists believe. Want to know what Calvinists believe?
We believe that God chose us from the foundation of the world and Predestined us for adoption as sons and daughters. (now go read Ephesians 1)
Is James White really implying that God cannot accomplish His plans to judge those who rebel using the free acts of evil men unless He has decreed it unchangeably from eternity past? If so, that's quite the "dependent" God in that He depends on His own decree just to accomplish what He wants. Anyone can do that.
I think you are using the word "dependent" on the wrong sense here. God isn't really dependent on his decree. God decrees things from eternity past and then they happen. It's like saying God is dependent upon Himself. Or do you not see the huge difference between God being dependent upon MAN to do something and God being dependent on his decree as you put it? But for the sake of argument sure, God is dependent on his decree. But the issue isn't if God is dependent or not it's over the THING that God is dependent on, people or his decree. There is a huge difference there. You are guilty of making a faulty comparison.
@@Apologia5, God is not dependent on anything. He does as He pleases. But we see clearly throughout scripture that God has chosen to do things based on how His creation responds. Jeremiah 18 is a clear example of this. God isn't dependent on man's choices but works in and through man's choices to accomplish His overall plan.
White basically argues that God cannot know something or prophecy something unless He has decreed it. That's a very low view of God's power and knowledge.
@@nathanhellrung9810 Yes, I agree with White in that God cannot know something unless He has decreed it.
I'm guessing that we would both agree that God has foreknowledge and knows what will happen in the future, correct? My question to you is HOW does God know what will happen? What is his foreknowledge based on?
I'm saying that God knows something will happen because God has decreed it to happen. His foreknowledge is based on his decree.
How do you believe God knows something if not based on His decree?
@Apologia5
Great question. I can’t wait to see how Nathan responds. 🙂
Keeping in mind this scripture may help.
Acts 17:26
“And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;”
I can’t listen to Flowers, I value my IQ.
Yeah, I don’t know how Dr White can stand to wade through this. Perhaps he makes Rich listen first and narrow it down it the specific material that they end up responding to.
who the comments against our brother Leighton are totally disrespectful for a christian to say to another christian, and nothing more than personal attacks.
@@Tigerex966 Everything Leighton puts out is disrespectful.
@@PaDutchRunner to who?
He says God loves everybody and has provided a way through the holy spirit, the scriptures, and the cross, for every man, woman, and child that hears and believes to be saved.
He says even with our free will, it cannot thwart God's will.
He says faith cometh by hearing and hearing from the word of God.
He calls James White his christian brother, and loves his debated with catholics, and muslims, and his mail order greek certificate jokingly.
He just disagrees that God preordains the rape of babies, and predetermines before we were born whether we go to heaven or hell, and predetermined the majority of mankind for hell, with no way ever of believing in Jesus, by devine decree.
Is that disrespectful, when it is backed up by scripture.
I don't get why the free choices of men is something calvinist hate so much, no one believes we are free to do what we want apart from Gods knowledge, we are free because God decreed that we were going to be free. Is simple really.
What scripture supports your claim?
@@Heroesbleed only the scripture that time and time again, tells us to repent or perish etc etc...
For example, you calvinist love to boast about romans 9 and the vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy as if that is a set thing that God has made, but guess what, jeremiah 18.3.10 tells us that those vessels have a chance of CHANGING if they repent BECAUSE God decreed it that way, so yeah when you take ALL of scripture into account, there is simply no room for calvinism, and it becomes clear that God "DECREED" for humans to be free in order to choose him. That is called Real love.
But if we are showing scriptures, then please tell me where does it say that we are TOTALLY depraved, because last time I read it, the bible teaches that we are dead in our sins and that no one wants to come to God, but not that we are unable to seek him or that we are dead like lazarus, so yeah thats a doosie...
@@DimensiondelosSecretos You didn’t answer my question. There is NO scripture that states man has a free, autonomous will. That’s probably why you deferred to your own reasoning rather than scripture. The description of our complete inability to seek God apart from his Grace....several are obvious. Genesis 6:5 is perfect. That describes human beings then and now. Ephesians 2:1-5, perfect description of your complete inability to seek God or to do good. Given just this rudimentary evidence, you really should embrace total depravity as a true scriptural concept.
@@Heroesbleed no thank you, I was a calvinist for years, but now Ive seen tHe error of my ways.
But look at your hipocrecy, I give you perfect descriptions of mans free will in the scripture, I even gave you jeremiah 18.3.10, which clearly states that we are free to choose. But you just shrove my argument aside as me deferring to my own reasoning. But when I ask you to provide scripture for total Inability, you cite 2 texts that say nothing on the subject. It is just a description of mans condition, but it doesn't say that we are unable to respond to the lord, it doesn't say that we are unable to have faith until we get grace. Even paul said that we FIRST need faith in order to ACCESS that saving grace.
So don't be a hipocrite, if we really are totally depraved is because God WANTS US to be that way in calvinism, don't you see how stupid that sounds?? We are only the play toys of a dictator "god" in calvinism: we hate him because he decreed that we should hate him, we love him because he decreed it, we are dammed because he decreed it, we are saved because he decreed it, hitler killed 6 million jews because he decreed it, a child got raped and killed because he decreed it, the rich are super happy because he decreed it, but in africa the poor are wishing they were never born because he decreed it. Don't you see how stupid that sounds, but when you read passages like jeremiah 19.5 where the lord said he didn't decree the evil that the cananites were doing, you have to start dancing around the meaning of the text, and start making excuses here and there just so your man made philosophy can fit...
YOU are the ones that deferred to your own man made reasoning not me.
We are as free as the wind, and if it were up to us, we would be dammed in an instant, but praise Heavens the lord PROVIDED a way out of that set destiny through FAITH so we can access the grace that saves us... God is the one who chooses who to save, and he CHOSE to save all the ones who BELIEVE... Simple
@@DimensiondelosSecretos My word you are confused. Ephesians 2:8 says what? And if we have to rely upon faith being a gift, lest we boast (which sounds exactly like what you’re doing), then we are completely and utterly dependent upon the True God of the universe for everything because we are that lost. I invite you to change your belief from a Me-centered belief system to a God-centered belief system.
2:00ish JW asks how can God do things on an appointed time table if he is dependent on actions of free men. (paraphrased). He goes on to say that it makes prophesy impossible, but his main question is how else could it be? Let me answer then. There are a lot of assumptions to go through.
The first issue is relevant to the "Gods time table" issue. That is that any prophesy of judgment would also include the prophesy of evil not yet committed, and indeed not necessarily committed, for God in his EDD sovereignty and his own free will could have decreed otherwise. This idea of a time table has God as the author of the sin to be judged, and maybe even decreeing judgment on people who had not yet sinned. How could it be any other way? God could be reacting to man originated sin, that occurs not on Gods predetermined time table, but based on human free will actions.
Second, God wants to judge this evil action. Does God need to "find" someone willing to judge Israel? Not at all, he could send plagues he could send angels, there are many things God did in the past to bring about judgment that did not include other nations. But that would mean God would prophesy something else, that His prophesy was not fiat declaration of what will be, but partly reactive deceleration of what will be. Why would God declare a nation that was not sinning to sin? This again makes God the author of evil. Turns out, the Calvinist idea that "we are not as bad as we could be" is true and at play here. God allowing men to be as evil as they want to be, or strengthening them to act according to their desire seems pretty easy to time.
Third, what about Gods ability to command an obedient "good" nation to judge other nations evil? (Like Israel conquering the land God gave them from evil nations) I mean, JW is assuming God needs some rebellious nation that he has to wait around for, but if they are not being rebellious and are being obedient, then they will obey his command to go and judge another nations.. all he has to do is ask. Iether way, Doesn't seem like God would have any timing challenge at all.
Finally, "but he didn't do so Sovereignly"(2:50ish). Why not? How is the alternative not Sovereignly acted out? Sovereign doesn't mean one CAUSES all things, it means one RULES over all things. Why can't sovereignty be reactive?
So it is false that God has to wait on man to judge man, not even sure why JW is saying that. The alternative to thinking prophesy is pure fiat dictate, is to think it is partially reactive dictates. IE God is not decreeing sin, he is reacting to it, that his means of judgment is not simply fiat, but partially reactive. If God is limited to accomplishing his will only through Fiat dictates, then JW is right to ask "how else". If however Gods dictates are inherently reactive, then JW is going about it all wrong.
White will just dismiss it he has to affirm the TULIP, no matter what period, his whole reputation depends on limiting the power of the atonement to save all who believe, making salvation by election not the cross, and limiting God's power saying he cannot be in control and still give satan and man free will.
I think God can, and I think the atonement is not limited, to men that are respected by God and elected to salvation before they are born.
Flowers hates a God who can be Sovereign in salvation. He denies total depravity
As Gordon Clark Once said permission is a meaningless concept if God creates everything.
If God could not control which sin he wills (decrees) and which sin he prevents, then how could he achieve anything? As James points out, the sins which God uses to achieve his purposes not only have to be committed by supposedly free creatures interacting with other supposedly free creatures, they also have to occur at the precise moment in exactly the right way to cause the desired effect. There are thousands of individual wills at work here, and can God's purposes therefore be thwarted if some people have a change of mind in the Arminian view? The Assyrians had to have not only the collective intention, but the opportunity granted by Israel's military weakness and the capability of their own army at that particular moment. As for God tempting men, he does not need to in the Reformed view. We already have a sinful nature from Adam, and there is already a devil. If our sinful nature was left unchecked we would commit much more sin than we do. God can be sovereign over which temptation He allows us to experience without ever placing an evil desire within us. It may sound like a technicality, but it is an important one.
If either the "free" actions of the Israeli's or the Assyrians had differed, does Flowers contend that God would not have been able to judge Israel as he wished? Or, does he believe as Proverbs 21:1 says that "The king’s heart is a waterway in the hand of the LORD; He directs it where He pleases".(?) If the only way for things to be fair is for man to have a "free" will, then why does God allow all to be born with a sinful nature in the first place? Does this not handicap us and undermine our freedom to choose what it good? Arminianism falls apart logically unless it tends towards full on Pelagianism (denial of original sin) or Open Theism where God is watching all the evils of history playing out in despair and is helpless to prevent it. Psalm 33:10-11 destroys the libertarian free will view anyway. God frustrates the plans of both nations and individuals so that His own plans will be established.
Yep. If there is no bad then God children didn't know what good is. If there is no down then there is no up.
so you are actually saying God wills all the sins we do, and we have to do them because God ordained them?
Where does the devil fit in, or we ourselves?
Are we merely running a prewritten script, with no way to veer left or right, yet still held accountable to hell forever, for what we had no control over?
@@Tigerex966 I get the distinct impression you didn't read what I read or think much about it. Furthermore, you are arguing against God's sovereignty from the exact same perspective as the objector in Romans 9:19. "If God ordains what comes to pass, how can he hold us responsible for our actions'?
Leighton Flowers uses the Romans 9:19 objection constantly and seemingly without any awareness that he is doing it.
Your objections are not biblical but philosophical in my opinion.
We believe man is responsible for his actions 100% but that God does according to His will among the hosts of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth.
There should be a video of rescuing Hebrew Isaiah from James White 🤦♂️
@Dr. Al Garza
Oh, Leighton did a rebuttal of White’s rebuttal.
@@pateunuchity884 I watched it. It was well done.
@Dr. Al Garza
Are you a Provisionist or an Open Theist?
Pat Eunuchity I would be considered a provisionist by your standard. In ancient Judaism, God foresees all but choice is given.
@Dr. Al Garza
In Calvinism God doesn’t take the choice away from the creature. The creature freely chooses his sinful actions.
Uh, no. Leighton Flowers is exactly correct. God did foreordain the disobedience of Israel, and God used the evil nation of Assyria to punish Israel. Amos 3:6. God is sovereign over ALL evil.
13:22 no way he incited
They should be called or titled rewriting Isaiah 10 by James White so if it is called like believes
Such an intentionally narrow-minded interpretation to God using the Assyrians who were arrogant to punish Israel who were disobedient.
God didn't depend on Judas, nor on the 11 disciples. He did not depend on Pharo either.
His sovereignty does not depend on his creation. He simply can use even someone rebellious just like a potter who can use a marred clay. However, he pleases to shape it as he pleases irrespective of the quality of the clay.
God is just and fair and loving. He is not going to cause the assyrians to be arrogant. You're compromising who God is in essence to his sovereignty, assuming his sovereignty was compromised. .to you God's sovereignty means more than God's nature and essence . God is love!
God didn't have to wait. He could've used other nations or other events. That was such a meaningless point.
God knew evil wouldl exist and he did a lot to deal with He sent his only son to die on the cross.
God is in complete control but is not controlling. Easy and simple answers to your false accusatory questions.
God in your theology decrees evil and punishes man for it.
We are not even close!!
What's with the weird childish graphics Flowers uses? He uses some font from the 70s with horrible colors and then also silly bouncy transitions, never mind his common spelling and grammar errors.
10:16 voice 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Love?
Dr. White ...are u a supralapsarian? Would like to know. Seems to account for the uncooth manner of rebuttal. Just curious.
Yes, the only way an omnipotent and omnipresent being that created the universe, and therefore exists outside of spacetime, can know the future is to have determined it. It couldn’t possibly be that he knows the end from the beginning because he can observe from outside of spacetime and experience it’s entirety simultaneously if he so chose.
If he observed it then he learned it.
@@billyr9162 why can’t God learn things? If Jesus was like us, then he learned things like how to walk, read, carpentry, etc.
@@robertwilliamson2609
How do you know he learned it? There was an interview with his mother and said he didn't learn anything he always knew it. It's called arca volume.
@@billyr9162 Hebrews 2:17, or should it read fully human in every way* (except no original sin, and he knew everything and how to do everything, and whatever else you want to add to make him like us, but not really.)
@@robertwilliamson2609
Ok. So you think God learns things.
I don't.
🤣
Dude, I'm laughing at your lack of creativity and understanding of God's 3-fold manifest power. "How could God possibly do it?" There's like a million options for God. Are you serious?😂 God knows all man. He simply chose one method which he prophesied about. I don't know he could send a flood or fire from heaven. I think I heard he did that somewhere.😂😂.
Meaning just because prophecy is true doesn't mean god has to Pre ordain everything to happen Meticulously.
Genesis 6:11
The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
Ezekiel Chapter 25
15Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the Philistines have dealt by revenge, and have taken vengeance with a despiteful heart, to destroy it for the old hatred;
16Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will stretch out mine hand upon the Philistines, and I will cut off the Cherethims, and destroy the remnant of the sea coast.
17And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.
Calvin is the image of the god he claimed is found in the Bible. Look at that man and his actions, his lack of love and mercy and see why I follow Paul, who follows Christ and reject a carnal Christian at best such as John Calvin. God bless.
@John James
Ad hominem attacks again? Maybe there’s more than one string on that banjo after all....🤔💭
So true a murderer, torturer, and boasted about it afterwards, forcing those in Geneva to do whatever, he determined for them to do, but guess what they did not, so he punished them, but they still had free will.
@@pateunuchity884 It's true.
The devil was a sweet talker with eve. Sweet talking don't mean truth talking. Nice doesn't mean right.
The word of God is a sword that cuts. If you're going around saying Jesus loves everybody and wants everybody to be saved that's not a sword that cuts.
actually The bible says God loves everyone, thats why he gave his so, so that none should perish but all should have everlasting life, those who believe are rewarded, those who do not, or punished.
the devil did tell some truth, mixed with a lie, but according to many calvinist, it was not the devil lying on his own, but God ordaining him to lie, and ordaining eve to be deceived.
@@Tigerex966
John 3:16 doesn't say God loves everybody. In fact he doesn't love everybody.
Romans 9:13
[13]As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Yes God-ordained him to. That's not the same as God lying. Who taught you logic?
@@billyr9162 Actually hate in context of Esau, means he was not chosen for service to fulfill God's promise to Abraham, Jacob was, it does not mean he preordained Esau to Hell and Jacob to heaven as both were sinners, and they made up.
God's knowledge knew who cared about the birthright, and who who sell it for stew, and marry outside of the family.
Here are some other times hate is used in a similar concept..
Pay attention to verse 26, hate hear again means choose or chosen for service, not actual hate as we know it, we are not to hate our father mother wife, and children, life literally , of course not, but we are to choose Jesus over them.\\Unfortunately Calvinist still take this out of context, as one of their primary proof texts, and I submit to you, they are wrong, if you read the passage in context, that whole chapter in Genesis, we prove this is the case, I believe.
Luke 14:26
25Now great crowds accompanied him, and he turned and said to them,
26“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
27Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. 28For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? 29Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31Or what king, going out to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. 33So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.
But I was talking about John, not Genesis, how did you get there.🤔
God words does not conflict, God indeed does love all mankind, even many calvinist admit this.
That is why he sent his son to die for us, not to condemn all of us sinners in the world, but to save us, and to as many as believed, he gave the power to become the sons of man.
@@Tigerex966
No. The Greek word miseo means hate.
That's the only thing the word means in the entire Bible.
You need to get yourself an interlinear Bible. Obviously you don't have one.
@@Tigerex966
Romans 8:28 And we know that *God causes all things* to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
It literally says God causes all things.
Isn’t Leighton wrong because God decreed it?
Depends on how you are using "decree". If you understand that to mean fatalism or humans are puppets without freedom or EDD or the other strawmanny ways Leighton typically defines it, no.
The Reformed confessions allow for human freedom and the liberty and contingency of second causes, and this is established by what God ordains and decrees (WCF). This is impossible on the 'calvinism' that Leighton attacks.
If you mean something like God decrees that humans have 2 legs and Leighton says humans have 8 legs, so he is wrong by God's decree, then yes. Leighton's theology does not accord with what God has decreed to be so in scripture.
There were no TULIPS in Christianity before Augusteen! 🤔
If divine decree and human responsibility is “too big” for Leighton to understand, then divine sovereignty and human free will is “too big” for White to understand. One cannot use that argument in one direction and not all it to be used in the other.
Flowers is a false teacher. He'll have to answer for a lifetime of twisting scriptures.
He was decreed by your god to be the way he is. So, he has the perfect excuse
@@biagiomaffettone1497 Are you a Christian? Your use of "your god" implies that you are not.
Try out that excuse on Judgement Day. See how that goes.
Seems like those who follow this guy do so because his theology makes them feel good.
So does White make you feel bad?
@@Tigerex966 seems I touched a nerve
@@SolaScriptura21 seems I touched a nerve
Yes you did
.
Jeremiah 19:9 *AND I WILL CAUSE THEM* to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.
Creation to Noah = God of Judgement
After the Flood to Birth of Jesus= God of Mercy
Death of Jesus to Current= God of Grace
Calvinism is false.
Leighton's position, at 20:30 , using Jeremiah 19:5 ; that God did not bring this about, is biblically flawed.. Yes, He did not Command it, but he divinely brought it about.. It's very important that we get this.. The things of God, are mysterious, and are only for God to understand fully, and exactly how, and why they happen.
The Sovereign God is about to speak to us all : Deut. 32:39.. (Read it, and EMPHASIZE THE "I" ).. "See now that I, even I, AM He, and there is no god with Me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal:".... Yes, only God does all these things.. Can He make it any clearer?
Think about it. . Your mom and dad had intercourse, and here you are , ALIVE.. but wait, God says that only He makes alive.. Yes, some how, God takes sole, divine credit, for making you alive.. (His divine work on display)... In the same regard, when there is death, or a killing ; one person kills, one or more ; here, God is saying, "I KILL," taking sole credit for doing all, and any type of KILLING. .. (His divine work on display).. This is undeniably supported by Yeshuah, when, in Matt. 10:29, He emphasizes that a sparrow can't fall (boom! dead) to the ground, with out the Father... Gill, is one of the few expositors, that had the insight, to see just how this establishes the Father as the supreme terminator of all things, made ; and determiner ; just like the hairs of our head that we can't determine for certain ; and even one inch more, by willing it, that we can't make ourselves grow into ; God is the supreme determiner, of a living thing's begining, its life experiences, and its end... Yes, He alone kills it at will ; and He alone makes it alive...... You can't knit pick.. You know in your heart, that only God makes alive ; so now, look at the close juxtapositing of the concepts, in the scripture's obvious chain of exclusive claims, and bring your heart to know, that God is saying, that only He kills... Why else would He make a point to say it with such KINGLY ferver.? "SEE NOW I, EVEN I AM HE...." He is emphasizing His sole control over ALL THINGS...
It's here, however, even though faced with the force of scripture, that the Arminian slips into semi palagianism, to attempt to deny God's exclusive kill claims ; and the huge P.R. problem.. They point out, that innocent babies would have to be targeted by God... But God only attaches "innocence" to a thing, to the extent, that it did not harm it's assailant... A man can be innocent, and killed by another as well... So this leaves us to figure only, that God's long standing contention with, and justification for prescribing DEATH, for men, women and babies, is because of the creature's cursed, fallen, original Adamic nature.. All humans, big or small, possess the nature of Adam, from birth... This alone is the justification God uses to destroy them, as we've seen, during the judgment of any nation ; And no one can deny that this is SUPER BIBLICAL ... God destroyed babies in Sodom.. God destroyed babies in Caanan and AI ; and in all the other nations where Isreal was used to cleanse the land ; unless they were spicifically instructed not to do so... So I say, "Man up!!" This is God's right to do.. He owns everything, and every (filthy from birth) sinner... We all deserve death and hell, being in Adam.. "All have sinned.." So when we look at this horrible act, of tossing babies into the fire, we ask then, was Israel acting out a curse from God?.. God's prophetic curses were always given validation, once they forsook His sacrifices, mingled with, and manifested the evil practices of the other pagan nations... ( Lev. 26:29 & Deut. 28:53-57) And for this God hated them... These curses were graphic, when foretold ; Isreal was destined to "Eat their babies" during the siege ; if evil persisted... How ironic, God was ensuring a curse, that Israel would kill and eat their babies... So clearly, this latest thing in the valley of the Son of Hinnom, was nothing more than another manifested curse from the Lord ; they were being made to blaspheme the lord, through pagan ritual, and to be made to think that they weren't ; which none of God's commands justified or supported, as Godly ritual ; and He had never thought of making it, such.. So God, the ultimate, and only life terminator, as He claims, ("I KILL,") was using Israel, to compound their own judgment... What a time of evil..
For obvious clear evil incidents like this, the rhetorically charged, question, in the words of the prophet Amos, must be bellowed out.. (Amos 3:6 ) "Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?" And this is the vital issue... Because in this instance, Jeremiah says, that there was evil "in a city", so to speak ; in the valley of the Son of Hinnom .. They were sacrificing (Killing) their children, throwing them into the fire ; and the scripture undoubtedly, rhetorically asks, in Amos, " Can there possibly be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?"... Here, the believer has no choice, but to believe what the scriptures teach about God's sole, sovereign actions ; that He alone, ultimately brings evil, and blessings upon you... He makes well being, and creats evil... He alone KILLS everything, He makes everything ALIVE, He alone WOUNDS everything, and He alone HEALS everything... Yes, that means, even if we perceive that a guy wounded another guy, God said, "I wounded that guy." "I, God, brought it about." Even if the doctor gave you antibiotics for your infection, God said, "I healed you." "I, God, brought it about." The scriptures instruct us to believe in the divine actions of God, especially when He emphatically takes all the credit for them... (with Big shoulders ; God says, "I DO IT ALL.. THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME.")
The problem here, is that arminians engage in dangerous denial... They stubbornly fight against God's claims in Deuteronomy, of Himself, doing all of the birthing, all of the killing, all of the wounding, and all of the healing ; and in Isaiah, as well ; fighting God's claims, of creating all of well being, and all of the evil... Arminians insultingly, favor instead, the humanistic free will actions of men only, at times, being the cause of events ; and, at other times, only, the free actons of God, can cause events... Both actors are their own determiners.. There can be no compatablism... This is what they've been programmed to see, in every situation ; and especially here, in Jeremiah 19:5, where they think they have reformers cornered..
Read it... As said before, God says that it never entered His mind to Command (order) Israel to kill their babies like this, on His behalf.. He is "clearing the air."... He's stating the fact, that He did not INSTRUCT them, by any of His ordinances, to perform this type of blasphemy... Arminians say, "Israel acted of their own free will, to kill." So, by God saying this, they say that He was removed.. Flawed, is this interptetation, I say.. ; But once used, it makes one thing clear ; that Arminians desire, to purposefully blind themselves to God's exclusivity claims, to kill ; and, blind themselves to the glaring compatablism we all see ; in regards to Israel having their own intentions play out, and the God of Eternity having His ; His being the execution of something that only He makes happen ; DEATH... To avoid this interpretation, is simply to deny the truth about the power of God, in a failing effort, to prove humanistic determinism.... We know, that Arminians fail to embrace the Lord even hardening hearts to stone, to create the greatest rebellion in a people, because of His determination to use that people, as evil ; even though the scripture demonstrates this ; i.e. Pharoah having his heart hardened (Exodus) ; and also, in the prophesy of the future kingdoms of this world, being given hearts of stone, as well.. ( Rev. 17:17); "for GOD PUT IN THEIR HEARTS to give their kingdom unto the beast (and commit utter blasphemy).... This, Arminians see as a violation of a man's free will, even though it's written plainly ; "GOD PUT IN THEIR HEARTS."
We have witnessed in scripture, God turning the hearts of those with Adams guilt, whithersoever He wills ; like He did with king Abimelech, in Judges, many times ; so then, there should be no doubt that those rebels in the valley of the Son of Hinnom, although unaware, were also under His divine control... How else could the divine manifest? "SEE NOW I, EVEN I AM HE, AND THERE IS NO god BESIDE ME... I KILL, AND I MAKE ALIVE.. I WOUND, AND I HEAL. .." It is a simple matter of doing honest reading, and having reverence for the Sovereign as He speaks, to conclude, that undeniably, God has everything to do with death, life, well being, and all of the bad things that happen.... Does that mean that we don't observe the actions of men? Yes we do ; But God's emphatic, exclusive claims about Himself, make it really, really, really, really, really, impossible to rule out His deterministic involvement...
If you rebel against this, then you possess a humanistic driven, weak, incomplete, theology, and YOU MAKE GOD A LIAR ; that being, He does not do all of the birthing, and all of the killing, and all of the wounding, and all of the healing ...
The objector must also contend with Nebuchadnezzar's words ; that, "None can stay His hand, or say unto Him, "what doest thou?
Oh wow, you got that totally wrong.
Flowers is incredibly dishonest, an excellent deceiver. It's no wonder he snares so many; the only hope of avoiding the snares of such cunning liars is serious emersion in God's word.
James White is incredibly dishonest, an excellent deceiver. It's no wonder he snares so many; the only hope of avoiding the snares of such cunning liars is serious emersion in God's word.
@@Tigerex966 I see what you did there. :) The issue is that White agrees with God's word, while Flowers subverts it. Work to get a foundation in historic, orthodox Christianity by studying your Bible with a sincere will to understand the truth, and you'll begin to develop the discernment necessary to distinguish lies from truth.
@@matthewdyer2926 :) A little kind sarcasm...
The issue is that Flowers agrees with God's word, while White subverts it. Work to get a foundation in historic, orthodox Christianity by studying your Bible with a sincere will to understand the truth, and you'll begin to develop the discernment necessary to distinguish lies from truth.
And leave the calvinism TULIP, and Arminianism behind.
You do not need those to interpret the bible with, it interprets itself.
The real reformers were Jesus Christ and the apostles, not Luther, John Calvin, and others 1500+ years later.
The people they killed and tortured alone should turn people away.
Anytime someone limits the atoning power of Jesus Christ and his blood, that is not the gospel.
Anytime some doctrine makes election the thing that saves, instead of Jesus, which becomes an afterthought, watch out.
Anytime a false doctrine tells sinners they cannot be saved, because Jesus did not die for them, and does not love them enough to offer salvation to them, and tell them they cannot have faith the way God says he gives it, but must be regenerated before they believe, that is the opposite of the bible, which clearly says faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the world of God.
God bless.
@@Tigerex966 You've got to be a youngest sibling.
@@matthewdyer2926 You mean like for a time Jacob, Abel, Isaac, and David?
This guy is way out of his league. TULIP and reformed theology is false doctrine. Now scrub this comment before some here actually learn proper hermeneutics and exegesis.
It absolutely blows me away how little faith White has in God's intelligence. He's said before regarding how God can know the future without having decreed every single thing that happened long ago, "I guess he's just a really good guesser." Or maybe he's just that intelligent, White. If he could raise up children for Abraham from the stones maybe he can bring about his plan no matter what is currently happening.
"God decreed evil actions"..."that does not mean that His holiness is in question". Dr James White...you cannot simply juxtapose those statements, and affirm them both with NO EXPLAINATION.
flowers is so correct on this, sorry james white.
@Tigerex966
Are you an Open Theist?
@@pateunuchity884 if he's consistent and honest in his theology he'll confess to being one
Sorry Tigerex966, White's refutation of Flowers and defense of Scripture is masterful.
@@pateunuchity884 The Mask guy is an Augustinian Manichaean Gnostic and a democrat I bet.
@@dannymcmullan9375 The bible not manmade doctrines is right.
Let God be true and every man a liar.
God has determined , from before the foundation of the world, that I would consider James White to be a fool. I tried to think differently about him but it was not part of God’s infinite plan.
Imagine Pilate saying:
"God has determined, from before the foundation of the world, that i would be complicit in the death of Jesus, I tried not being complicit but it was not part of his infinite plan"
Do you see the problem?
"So, God has no decree"
That was not said, Jimbo, was it.
BTW dust particles bing compared to living creatures, created by God and in his own image. is nothing short of evil.
God is never the primary cause of moral evil...prove it. These things are not of the Spirit.
Yeah Dr James White...would you be so kind as to exegite jeremiah 19...how God did not decree, command, or come in to His mind. Prove open theism wrong and compatibalism right from that text...
James White just keeps misrepresenting Leighton!!
@Juan-Pierre Le Roux
How is he misrepresenting him?
He played the video. Lol
Pat Eunuchity he misrepresents provisionism in general and throws out a bunch of straw mans that make me cringe every time he talks about it.
@Gavin Escudero
In my experience even self proclaimed Provisionists can’t represent it correctly.
Most are closet Open Theists. 🚪
Pat Eunuchity well, you’re talking to a provisionist who believes in sovereignty, and who rejects open theism because it’s unbiblical.
Pat Eunuchity I believe God sovereignty used the Assyrians to punish Israel, but God didn’t sovereignty force the Assyrians to have the evil intention. Even Calvinists who believe in positive-negative predestination will agree with that statement.
Dont even address it when u have no refutation....
There’s an easy way to prove mankind has a Libertarian Free Will. Just stop sinning, Mr. Autonomy. 🙄😂🤣
No. its to humble yourself and admit, you cannot save yourself, and plead that jesus forgives you and covers your sin, and will give you the strength to live for him, because on your own you cannot.
As all of us christians have done, calvinist, or not.
@@Tigerex966
I think you have misunderstood my point. I wasn’t speaking about salvation or conquering sin.
I was being sarcastic in challenging those who believe mankind has a Libertarian Free Will. Neither Jesus nor Paul believed mankind had a libertarian free will.
*John 8:34*
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, *_everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin._*
*Romans 6: 17&18*
But thanks be to God, *_that you who were once slaves of sin_* have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, *having been set free from sin,* have become slaves of righteousness.
We are slaves to sin by nature. Those who don’t believe this simply need to completely STOP SINNING to prove otherwise. The point is we can’t completely stop sinning, therefore no one has a libertarian free will.
@@theeclecticcollective8279 Ok my bad, sorry about that😕
A few things. It saddens me to see such hostility toward Dr. Flowers. The issue here is hermeneutics (interpretation). Dr. Flowers, as does Dr. White, preaches what he genuinely believes the gospel to be saying. The issue at hand is those on this thread are engaging in confirmation bias..feeding themselves with content that confirms a previously held belief. Many of the comments in this thread are direct assaults on the individual of Dr. Flowers, not so much his belief.
I would encourage every person on this thread to, instead of engaging in confirmation bias, engage in thoughtful study of a different interpretation. For the last two months, I’ve spend countless hours up to my ears in Calvinistic content, even though I adhere to a traditionalist view. Let’s be a body that desires to effectively live out 2 Timothy 3:16, not just outside the body, but in it too. We are ONE body. Let’s not create division, but rather engage in thoughtful discourse to truly understand another position before we attack it.
God knows the future, DUH. He doesn't HAVE to control it. White embarrasses himself so often it is hilarious.
Why do you worship God? Because he is all powerful and soverign? Then u worship God for His power. How is that not Satanic?? The Holiness of God is not His almighty power. God does not do all things for the glory of His power and soveriegnty...but for the glory of His name. You have things turned around.
You offer no explaination Dr White. Please explain HOW God remains holy and decrees evil. Not just affirm. Affirming is not teaching. A teacher can explain things, not just affirm propositions. In this you are no better than an IFB who argues by yelling their affirmations as well. If u cannot explain something, than you truly dont understand it, and if u cant explain or understand it, then by all the laws of logic and epistemology you cannot possibly KNOW it. And if u cannot explain, understand, or know it...what business do u have teaching it? Dogmatically affirming is not teaching!
Explain Acts 4:27-28. It says clearly God predestined by His hand and plan to direct the evil of "Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel" against Jesus, who is described as holy. You appear to be railing against scripture.
@@logofreetv no problem. Acts 4 is always used as a proof text that God decrees all evil since he decreed the greatest evil, the crucifixion. Rarely does anyone bring up Acts 2, in which this same event is spoken of. In Acts 2 it says Christ was "delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God".. Clearly what was determined and purposed was Christ being DELIVERED into the hands of lawless men, not the men being determined and purposed to BE lawless or DO lawlessness. God directing evil to His ends is not the same as His supossed decreeing evil to be in the first place. Thats the point. Hermenutics is where you bring the rest of scripture, and especially scripture that deals with the same exact thing, to bear on the text u are presently interpreting. If that is not done then it is being used as a proof text and u can go off the rails. The problem with the unscriptural view that God is decreeing all evil rather than orchestrating it to His own ends and glory is twofold. First, it becomes redundant and inane to make the decree of God encompass all particular evils in a causal and fixed way. When u make Gods decree in Psalms 2, for instance, into some sort of matrix of reality, or "fabric of time" ( an expression James White likes to use) it becomes obviously absurd. If that is the case, then God decreed them to kill His Son and fail to do so. Then again, to kill His Son and fail to do so, and again and fail. Then finally decree them to succeed. Absurd. Read the scriptures. They tried to kill Christ a few times before they actually did. According to the "God decrees all evil theory" he decreed all the failed attempts as well. The absurdity is erased when u understand God is directing and orchestrating evil that is already there, not causally determining it to be in the first.
Secondly. The Lords prayer is for His will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. That is an absurd contradiction to the theory that God is decreeing all evil to BE. For if that is the case, u have the absurdity of praying against a decree that evil BE, a prayer that could never be logically answered.
@@davidxinidakis4119 You've bypassed the point. Sure, Acts 4:27-28 could be viewed as a proof text (and therefore weak), but that's hard to do in view of the many prophecies that were fulfilled in the life and death of Jesus with which it is consistent with. It says God predestined by His hand and plan which in order to fulfil prophecy makes perfect sense. And I've seen Acts 2:23 used lots of times for the same reasons - you need to read it again without your filter or assumption of God delivering Jesus up as somehow being mutually exclusive with "both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. " Luke didn't seem to think there was any contradiction - the two obviously support each other.
"First, it becomes redundant and inane to make the decree of God encompass all particular evils in a causal and fixed way." Not sure what you mean, but if you want to apply a purposelessness to evil that threatens God's plans, I would reject that as it would make a mockery of most people's lives' pain and suffering to one day bring glory to God. You have to remember, evil has a very real limitation coming one day - its total defeat and removal - and that bringing glory to Him. Therefore God using it is hardly an affront to His holiness, is it?
"If that is the case, then God decreed them to kill His Son and fail to do so. Then again, to kill His Son and fail to do so, and again and fail. Then finally decree them to succeed. Absurd. Read the scriptures. They tried to kill Christ a few times before they actually did. According to the "God decrees all evil theory" he decreed all the failed attempts as well. The absurdity is erased when u understand God is directing and orchestrating evil that is already there, not causally determining it to be in the first."
This is a mess. There's nothing to suggest that failed attempts on Jesus' life somehow repudiate the overall plan and God's hand on it, they could just serve as witnesses to evil being limited. In a technical sense, even the crucifixion was a failure to kill Jesus, because evil's 'victory' certainly was short-lived, wasn't it? So why view that any differently than the so-called 'failures'? Acts 4 underlines the causal nature of it and its a baffling position you have to be in to effectively claim prophecies are just luck because the reality is God HAS to have control over even the smallest detail (even down to a random donkey and a colt tied up in a village nearby) to bring things to pass. God can't just be twiddling His thumbs, waiting... waiting... waiting... for things to line up exactly as He needs them to be for prophecy to be fulfilled which is what you have to believe. Now THAT'S an absurdity.
I feel sad for u
@@logofreetv i feel sad for u
No Doctor James White, James is speaking to the ontogical necessity of the Holiness of God when he says God does not tempt man. I fear your definition of holiness is skewed by conflation of Gods name and nature with His power.
I loose respect for James White every time he talks TULIP
Why do you loose respect for James?
@@vincentkvincentkyolsonop9152 He has a habit of slandering Christians. He claims: We don't believe in the sovereignty of God, that we believe we can come to God on our own strength , our own will, We Hates God's decree. We believe, we can thwart the will of God.. We don't know the Bible... Where do I stop... This is an open ended question...
*So tell me why do you agree with him??*
@@biagiomaffettone1497 Are you a Provisionist? Are there any official doctrinal statements of faith that someone could read? I just recently heard about Provisionism. Did Leighton coin the term?
I agree with Dr. white in the teaching of total depravity. Romans chapter 5 teaches that everyone inherits a sin nature. I agree with Dr. White in how he teaches God’s sovereignty over all things. Genesis 50, Job 3, Psalm 115, Isaiah 10, Romans 9, Romans 8, Psalm 139…..
If you want more specific chapter and verse I can do that later.
Brother, God knows you and has sent His Son to pay for the sins of the world. Anyone who believes will be saved.
@@vincentkvincentkyolsonop9152 I am a Christian. I believe what Jesus and the Apostle taught... I don't see anywhere in scriptures where God decrees man to Hell before they are born.. I have to stretch and twist the scripture really badly to get that interpretation.
You may be very surprised but I believe the scriptures you quote also.. You have a way of turning the sovereignty of God into Determinism.. Can you quote a scripture which teaches that??
So why do you believe what White believes about Christians?? (((we can come to God on our own strength , our own will, We Hates God's decree. We believe, we can thwart the will of God.. We don't know the Bible))
@@biagiomaffettone1497 Is God unjust to put haters of God into hell?
Romans 8:7-8 “For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”
Romans 5:7-10 “For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Ephesians 1:4-9 “having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
¶ In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,”
What does the word predestined mean in Ephesians 1:5?
What does the phrase “He Chose us in Him before the foundation of the world” mean in Ephesians 1:4?
unguided by God???
This is like the accusation of the 'Corridor of Time', thrown at those who will not permit Calvinism to take root where they can prevent it. NONE but the Calvinists said this. Again, just like Augustine.
Post Garden, God talked to humans. God sent prophets to other nations. God made his own holy nation. God sent more prophets. God sent his son.
Jimmy pretends that Flowers claims that ALL of humanity was unguided and that Flowers holds and teaches that God, basically, abandoned humanity.
If one must lie to forward a doctrine, that doctrine is false
There is no divine culpability in a free will doctrine. Foreknowledge is neither affirmation of what will occur, nor is it causal, nor is it license. Permission (giving a license or permit) vs Permission (there was no obstruction, thus permitting an escape) Calvinists talk to people using the latter, then accuse with the former.
I factually, with the knowledge of God almighty, that any child of mine, my genetic offspring, that will live to an age of understanding, WILL SIN.
My choice to have children having this knowledge does not make me culpable. God's foreknowledge does not make God culpable. Again, you have had this explained to you and quite often I can truthfully state. You simply choose to lie and continue your defamation of a Christian, which you ar not!
No, Dr Liar,
There is NO statement wherein God ordains, causally, any sin. God ordained the sacrifice of Jesus, he did not (and scripture does not say he did) preordain any individual to perpetrate even one sin in that event.
But Your claim of such comes from Calvin, wherein Calvin states that man cannot think, move or complete anything, even sin, without God doing it!
In Calvinism you sin, due to desire. the desire was put in you by Calvigod. Like any programmed instrument with no volition, the instrument holds no guilt. If the guilt was not originated by man, but by God, Man holds no guilt for thought nor deed.
God did not create the free actions of man, good or evil, thus is not culpable. Yet, you continue to state that he CREATED it and you accuse Flowers and others of believing that God had no purpose for it or was unable to stop it.
To play one of your, guilt by association, cards, that is an atheist claim. Is the only consistent Calvinist, an atheist?
When Calvinists cannot actually prove their own claim (in full, contextually presented Scripture passages), they pretend that the other side is claiming that God just is not powerful enough.
I challenge anyone to find Free will doctrinal claims of God lacking the power to do this or that. It may be claimed that God cannot, but such a claim is due to God's self-limitation instead of a lack of power.
this is a deceitful ploy that traces itself back to the true originator of the Calvinist heresy, Augustine, and his own invented and published doctrine that he then, accused his ecclesiastical/political rival, Pelagius, of having taught
Geez, at the 2:40 timestamp of the video James White completely misses what Leighton said. James White says that Leighton claimed that God didn't use the evil intentions of the Assyrians sovereignly. That's not what Leighton said, that's the opposite of what Leighton said. Leighton said that God didn't sovereignly bring about the evil intentions of the Assyrians. Sovereignly using those intentions and soveregnly bringing those intentions about are two distinctly different things. SMH
Can God have a particular appointed time to judge a nation with the restrictions placed upon Him though the free actions of His creatures?
Irrelevant to what Leighton claimed and how James White misrepresented it. No one disagrees that God used the evil intentions of the Assyrians sovereignly. The issue is the claim that God sovereingly brought their evil intentions about. There's a clear distinction between these two things. Conflating the two is unnecessary. God can use the evil intentions of the Assyrians to accomplish His plan without having to sovereignly bring these intentions about.
@Nathan Hellrung
So can God or can’t He??
Or you don’t want to answer the question because you think it’s irrelevant?
@Nathan Hellrung
Remember the question is about timing...PARTICULAR TIMING. 🙂
@@pateunuchity884, your question has nothing to do with my initial comment.