Threat Assessment | EDHRECast 128
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- čas přidán 10. 09. 2020
- Who's the threat? What's the most dangerous card on the battlefield? Is someone about to combo off? This week we're talking threat assessment, and the different lenses and philosophies we use to help find out who or what to target, and how!
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Music: "Crunk Knight" by Kevin Macleod licensed via Creative Commons:
• Kevin MacLeod ~ Crunk ... - Hry
Okay, who let me on the air with hair looking like that?
Your barber?
It's about time one of you challenged Joey for Best Coiffed :-)
@@zapsdiputs By "barber" you mean "my wife with a pair of sewing scissors in the driveway".
It was probably Dana Roach - notoriously works against your best interests.
Hey man hair is hard to manage these days
I was playing in a game where someone tapped out for Nyxbloom Ancient and I let it resolve but then I countered a Mana Reflection on the next players turn. They were salty because I let a mana tripler resolve but countered the mana doubler. What they didn't know was I also had Path to Exile in my hand and had every intention of taking out the Ancient before they could untap.
Great topic. My friend and I discussed this a few months ago. There is a combined issue with running too few removal cards in decks generally. Some people, not all, horde their precious removal until a dominant threat rises up against them when the table could have prevented that scenario in the 1st place. (In a bad summary of your point). I hope as a community we become more proactive in the deckbuilding phase and in previously stated execution of removal.
This was a really good one, and a really interesting topic. I'm constantly preaching the value of post-gaming with my play groups. The only way to truly lose a game of MTG is to walk away having learned nothing. So long as you have some idea of how you could have gotten more value out of the cards in your hand and/on the battlefield, or an answer to edit into your deck, you and your ant friends will end up laughing at all the grasshoppers' well deserved misfortune in the long run.
When playing an enchantment deck, always target green and white first. Red black and blue are far less threatening, using threat assessment is a huge part of the game too many people don't think about so thank you for the video! Like if you are a Combo deck, you are always watching Blue and if they have mana!
You fools! Don't you know if you say 'Blightsteel' three times in a podcast it summons Craig Blanchette?!
I LOL'ed as soon as I read this!
Well-played, good sir. Well-played.
Someone: becomes a threat in edh
Other three players: EMERGENCY MEETING!!!
Someone: I am not the threat
Everyone: ____ is sus
Thank you SO MUCH for publishing your decklists! I’m fascinated to see what you’ve built and how you’ve built them. Keep up the great work! 👍😁
Sanguine bond is potentially imminent, but actually has a lot of replacements. Especially since they're printing marauding blight-priest in zendikar rising. There are now 6 drain type effects, but still only one exquisite blood.
You guys have rapidly become one of my top three mtg content creators, totally in contention for #1 I look forward the the end of work on Friday to sit down and watch the next one. Keep it up!
With Dual-Caster Mage:
A. Budget. I see all too often that you guy's write cards off as worse versions of other cards, and thus overplayed, without considering that the more budget option is always going to be more played.
B. Dual-Caster has a relevant creature type in wizard, so you will see it be more popular due to the prevalence of tribal and the fact that people will run it for what it is instead of what it does.
Duelcaster mage also has one of the most mana efficent mono red 2 card infinite combo.
Also copies opponents spells, the vast majority of red copy effects dont do.
Me: "So I play Smothering Tithe."
Player 2: "At the end of your turn, I use Master Transmuter to put Welding Jar back in my hand and put Blightsteel Colossus into play."
Player 3: "I USE RETURN TO DUST...ON SMOTHERING TITHE."
Me: "WHAT THE HELL DUDE!? I-I counter it with Fierce Guardianship. There. Now WHAT THE HELL?"
Player 3: "I just don't like Smothering Tithe."
Player 2: "One shot robot hits Player 3."
Player 3: "I wish there was something I could've done about this!" (dies to Infect)
This is like the time someone removed my trinisphere because they "didn't like stax" but the whole time I was preventing the storm player from going off. We all died as soon as he passed turn to the storm player.
@@king_eternal spicy threat assessment O.0
Mana rock hits the board, gets hit by anguished unmaking.
Hasted Ghalta and Aurelia the war leader hits the board, Ghalta gets granted double strike, the player who just cast AU gets demolished, "Oh man, I wish I had a response to that".
A big reason to play Fact or Fiction isn’t to strictly adhere to commander synergy, but because IT IS FUN to give your opponents the task of separating cards into piles. Not every card needs to synergies with the commander, especially if they are sugar cards.
you guys should do a podcast about the fact the 5 color decks are the most popular color combination in the format and what it means going forward.
Is there something wrong with that fact?
@@eliakimrodrigues color identity is an integral part of the commander format. 5 color decks don't have one. and don't say: " yes they do, they're all 5 colors". they can use any color they want, which means they have no color restriction, which means they have no color identity. if you lose an integral part of the format, the format gets worse. that seems obvious to me. color identity is an interesting part of the format that separates it from other formats. if everyone is playing 5 color decks, it just ceases to exist.
@@igniteaxiom Color identity is also a limitation that some players don't enjoy. These players have a home in the 5-color territory.
@@eliakimrodrigues those players should play one of the 50 other formats without color identity if they don't enjoy it. but unfortunately the popularity of commander is bringing in people from other formats who are playing it not because they like the strictures of the format but because they just want to join the fad. and typically when fad's become popular they get ruined.
@@igniteaxiom “boo hoo somebody playing the game how I don’t like” - You
One point I'd like to say is that if you can swing at someone for even a little damage without major consequence, you want to always try and hit the black or orzhov players since these decks usually use life as a resource. If you can take away even a few life points away from an ad nauseum, it could be enough to screw over that player for the rest of the game.
Another point I feel should have been mentioned: incorrect threat assessment based on "dislike"
For example:
- Player A has 5+ cards in hand w/ 1 removal spell
- Player B has Smothering Tithe or Consecrated Sphinx (i.e: a value engine)
- Player C has a force discard, like: LIliana of the Veil
Too often Player A will target player's C lili coz he doesn't want to discard a card, even though he has plenty of cards in hand, instead of focusing on the value engine going on.
In MTGO the Threat Assessment is based on Salty bullshit, if I hit someone with my 1/1 in the early turns of the game that player going to cast every removal on me or attack me forever, meanwhile the blue player assamble his combo, WTF!
Just play cEDH whilst what happens is broken as hell at least their is proper threat assessment ;)
I need to see this Syr Konrad decklist, I also have a Konrad deck my play group is extremely afraid of. Great video fellas, subbed for sure!
Here's the link to Joey's deck: archidekt.com/decks/234654#Syrah_Konnor
There was a combo that i used to play with the battered golem in challenge the stats. Worked with traxos aswell. Use retraction helix or the other card that had the same effect then play a 0 mana artifact and cast away!
Great episode! So many videos out there telling what interaction to play, but not so many telling you *when* to play it. Personally, my problem is that sometimes after I say that I have an answer to something I let other players pressure me into using it even though it's not the best moment for me. For example last time a player in my pod (player 2) convinced me to remove an Astral Slide controlled by player 3 which was a huge pain for him (and akso a bit for me), so I did it one turn too soon, and a turn later player 4 proceeded to kill me with his Voltron commander which was being only kept in check by the astral slide. He then proceeded to kill the rest of thr table and win the game. If I had waited on that answer, I would have survived!
Start playing cedh. It's taught to me not get tilted when I get knocked off the hill, and to dispassionately hit others, while trying to preserve my own resources.
Two of you have very well-coiffed hair. What sort of product does that to a human's hair?
Natural sex appeal
the blow dryer
Yeah I need to know what Dana has going on
@@cartermiller7886 Dana made a joke about his hair on Twitter. I still have a little giggle from it
American Crew Fiber is a good one
I summon all fans of EDHRECast to unite and make a petition for the guys to do a compilation of EVERY DAD JOKE.
Seconded
@@mathimus55 The master himself! Wholesome ❤️
To add to what they were saying about the Orzhov player holding back and potentially having a boardwipe, please pay attention to that, as otherwise, my boardwipe feints don't work lol. I don't generally run boardwipes, but I love to act like I do to throw my opponent off. It helps if you have a non-boardwipe foretell card, as everyone at the table will immediately read it as a Doomskar if you're in white.
I've been told my threat assessment is shite but that was my plan all along to keep the stronger player in the game because i had more threats in hand and waited to play them as opposed to other players who kept playing their whole hand into removal. Really enjoyed the episode ( : politics is truly a grand part of edh. With lich effects mono b doesn't have a life total weakness in fact it's a strength and mono white token, soldier, ally, etc... decks are very much as strong or stronger than 6 green creatures. Blue has more consistent ways of getting a creature bigger but green has more ways to increase a green creatures power with combos.
Even if someone plays a threat and you tell them "I have removal for it so don't swing at me or I'll remove it...... but i won't if you swing at someone else" and you politic it to them to use that threat against someone else and its not an immediate threat to you
Best Commander Podcast on the net!!!
Has teysa i like to assemble various small value engines without making a hug board presence, just enough to get some value and do some chumpblocks telling other players that i isn't worthy attacking and then comboing from nowhere
100% agree about removing Tombstone Stairwell first. Without the Stairwell, Blood Artist is nothing. Without Blood Artist, the Stairwell is still a threat
@everyone What are things you watch out for as scary in each color combination? (i.e. black: life total, blue: cards in hand, green: creatures, orzhov: not committed to the boardstate, etc)
Heh, I had an evil grin as I read the last one. Been scribbling the last week on a deck with a considerable amount of mass removal.
Agreed on Dualcaster being overplayer/overrated. I run it in Feldon where I can instant speed reanimate Dualie but, in a red-based deck that wants to copy spells, using spells (not creatures) that copy spells synergies way better. Looking at you, Senior Stormsire.
Somebody dropped a sphere of safety once against my Krenko deck... They thought they were safe now... Burn at the Stake to the face :)
Red etbs with a wheel effect are far more threatening than infinite gobbos.
@@kingfuzzy2 what?
@@draconic367 purphuros
@@kingfuzzy2 That's in there too.
@@draconic367 then ur deck is the scary kind ( :
I have had my stuff get targeted so many times before I've even done anything, such as having blightsteel out, and i'm like, maybe try and politic with me first? Could help us both. Then lo and behold a completely different opp wins because of it.
Excellent episode guys. I'm passing on the R.I.D. system with my playgroup asap
"If you're pretty sure there's no more infect left in the game..."
Not if I have anything to say about it!
Can you guys please upload the vods from twitch on YT?
HAHAHAHAH!
Matt Fixing his hair at 22 Mins - ROFL!
Jesus the quotes 20 years ago is 2000s I feel old....
I do love Battered Golem and it definitely needs to see more play
This week's episode brought to you by: Water.
"The source of all life. Drink some now."
Topics idea: How to reach the midgame. Don’t ask me I’m the agro player at most tables, if we reach midgame or late game I’m having issues.
Expropriates caster picks the permanent. So it’ll be the best thing you have on the board. But it’s that or another turn, I’ve had all three players give me an extra turn and then scoop because I had three extra turns in a Sen Triplets deck. Especially in a triplets deck, give them something off your board not extra turns where they’ll get your hand for a turn.
Life is a resource, I’ve won games from under ten life.
I was in a game where my board had been wiped and I had recast my commander but that was all I had on board, three cards in hand, and clearly not the threat at the table. But (what I perceived as) poor threat assessment had my one creature removed and an engine piece left to end the game by another player. It was a big enough WTF that we had to talk about it afterwards.
While I understand your challange of Fact or Fiction for Niv-Mizzet decks, what i will say is that Niv-Mizzet decks (or at least mine) are combo decks. So gidding for your combo pieces is the real draw of Fact or Fiction, even if your not dealing a couple points of damage. Although, that being said i dont run Fact or Fiction in mine, but i do run Dig through time, which is a better version of the same kind of effect with the same problem of "not actually drawing the cards".
Dualcaster Mage in Adeliz, the Cinder Wind is also a Wizard and Adeliz cares about Wizards?
No evasion, it's never getting through. There's ten copy spells i'd run before it that are more efficient and also do other things.
Joey looking as pretty and handsome as usual. Gosh, I can't stop looking at him.
Yea, threat assessment is my playgroup’s biggest weakness. They focus far too much on just the power/toughness stat and not enough on what smaller creatures do. A 6/6 vanilla is seen as a huge threat over the 1/1 that is fundamental to a deck performing.
Show them that grave titan is much much worse than something like viscera seer. Grave titan will bonk people for 6-10 whereas viscera seer is usually a key combo or value piece
Lenny's gumball deck kicked my butt too (online playgroup). Killer tech!
One of my frustrations is when I play someone that I've never played before and they make assumptions about my deck based on how someone in their playgroup played my commander. They will go tunnel vision on my board because they assume I'm the threat and ignore obvious threats.
As far as threat assessment goes, In my LGS there is a saying "Kill Koki First" for a reason xD
/"koki" is my nickname/
in a game today, me playing Jhoira, weatherlight captain (legends/voltron) with fiery emancipation and intruder alarm on the field, Jhoira, Kefnet(old), Nezahal, anger... VS 3 orzhov decks. I just exiled the graveyards and pass to lurrus of the dream den-player, so he sacrifices his board to the ashnods altar, I remind him about his athrios triggers, and don't pay life, he gets his creatures back... and then he, with an empty graveyard casts living death. I activate Nezahal twice, put into the graveyard both Krenkos, Godo, Sakashima, squee the immortal and niv-mizzet... Once he realised what he just did, we just stopped the game... nobody had a clearboard, nobody had removal, nobody had card draw in hand, and the next card of their decks was the same...
I like your style. I mainly play synergistic jank and occasionally reanimator/ grave interaction decks. I really hope your playgroup allows wish cards to save the grave deck players a lil pain.
“I said I felt!” 50:14
Tombstone Stairwell is nice, but it requires graveyards to have creatures; that's why I prefer Infernal Genesis, which although it cost 2 more upfront, doesn't have an upkeep cost. I run it with Illness in the Ranks and Virulent Plague(both help counter token decks). So essentially, during each players upkeep they mill the top card and make X 1/1 Minions = to the milled cards cmc, then tokens die as a state base action triggering Konrad or any of the other similar effects in the deck. Plus the milled card might also be a creature.
However, I've noticed that people don't ever get rid of the Infernal Genesis, but instead get rid of one of the many cards I have that help me win off of it. Against token decks, even if I never see Infernal Genesis, they are more likely to get rid of Konrad and other payoffs than the Illness in the Ranks and Virulent Plague that not only prevents them from playing their decks(as effectively) but also enables the payoff cards.
It's like people get too focused on what's directly causing them to lose life/take damage, that they don't notice the combo pieces in play enabling such.
There's a few thrull enchantments and creatures who work very well too.
I really want to dislike this video, my entire MO revolves around downplaying the first poison counter
Great stuff as always, but I don't think I'll be sharing this one with my playgroup 🙃
Ah, edhrec cast, the cast for all your edh needs. If you need recs or edh's to cast, then hop on over to edhrec. They've got casts, they've got recs. You can channel all your edh recs at this cast.
....Sorry, I'm channeling Brainstorm Brewery for some reason. Sounds like a situation for a Seance, which is sorta-kinda like a type of necromancy.....
I killed a nekusar with a curiosity on it on my upkeep before I teferi puzzled, apparently that was wrong and I should have removed a card in the Erzuri player’s hand, somehow.... salt was slung, but dude.... it wasn’t on the board, I could take out the value engine... just because I couldn’t also stop the Ezuri player from wining because I’m in boros doesn’t mean you have to tell me I’m bad at edh. I’d never say it to them but I’d have made the same decision given the choice. Needless to say I’m just going to play combo because I’m tired of being scolded by condescending whales who can afford the right removal for everything.
Sounds like you should find different ppl to play with
If a playgroup gets too focused on only playing control decks it's time to find a new playgroup if you don't want to constantly use their strengths as a weakness and not giving up on making yourself a greater threat than them.
You really should post your stream vods here on yt so we can watch it after.
They're available on Twitch after the stream is completed.
Threat assessment in my group is based on basically nothing I could ramp as green and then have someone target me for the whole game
Joey lookin spiffy
28:29 Ok, but, all those cards you mentioned are more expensive money-wise, budget is a legit thing man...
I think one issue with Commander players is they don't run enough answers. They wanna do so much with their deck that they aren't using any cards to address what someone else is doing, and so they have nothing to stop someone if they decide to wanna go off.
TL;DR please take advice of longtime EDH players and run some answers like removal. Your deck is going to have 60-65 or so non land cards: make some room for some interaction, even if 10 cards are for draw, 10 cards are for ramp, and if even 10-12 of your cards are interaction you still have half your deck that synergizes and form your core strategy while still having the ability to play against the table
"We need to move on" -Joey :)
Another point is the revenge kill/ take it personal kill. Just because someone removed your commander or combo piece doesn't mean you have to remove something of theirs in return.
FoF in Niv Mizzet. Here's some Statchallenge for you: People overestimate how much their small mechanics matter. And yes, "whenver you draw a card" on niv mizzet is in general a small mechanic. Why? Cuz it does jackshit for you, except it makes people angry. Fact or fiction is a very efficient way of gaining Card Advantage, something you'd like in this deck. It is instant speed so you keep your mana open for reactions. And let's be honest, either you build Niv Mizzet Combo, in which case FoF is just another way to find combo pieces, or you play Niv Mizzet Jank, in which case it is absolutely fine to play a suboptimal card, just cuz you think its fun (and well, it is good, for the reasons I prev. stated)
Green, the new blue!
DANA!
I LOVE YOUR SALTY, SALTY FIRE!
I am living for Joey's Drag Race references.
Is there a list for that Syr Konrad deck?
archidekt.com/decks/234654#Syrah_Konnor
Here ya go! Our full lists can all be found here: edhrec.com/articles/edhrecast-our-decks/
Any idea when the podcast episode will go live. They used to come out around GMT+2 midday on Firday.
The ultimate joke would be if mat had said that in sign language
I think its more difficult to tell when a therad ends and a new one starts. but as more blue is invited as more thread it should be x)
. . . Threat
reminder to myself: building a RW smothering thite/wheel deck....
Ok, but actually, why has WotC not actually made a Liliana Chain Veil Covid Mask? I would also wear the crap out of it!
I had someone wheel with an enemy notion thief in play 24:00
In other words, put various/versatile removal options in your deck. On top of that, politic your way into not using removal so long as opponent targets another opponent.
Modular spells are bae.
My playgroup usually has a combo deck, a Ghidora deck, and my Angels Tribal Reanimator deck. The fourth deck depends on who shows up.
Point being, the Ghidora deck loves to ramp out quickly. Multiple times, he's played Rampant Growth, Farseek, Kodama's Reach, and Cultivate consecutively (not necessarily in that order).
In response to this, I've had to go to mass land removal to give my deck time to get going, and to knock out, essentially, the combo player and the Ghidora deck at the same time.
People need to learn that land destruction is just as legitimate a strategy as non-land permanent removal.
Often if i have an protection spell lilke propaganda or sphere, my playgrp doesnt attack each other until my defense is down and they can kill me ... they setting there focus not on the gameplay. The focus is on the general deck i play. "I know what your deck can do, no matter how long it takes it musst die."
Using salt to be a kingmaker is not the way to have fun in most games.
Things to have less threats at the table:
nr.1: if they have no mana, there is no threat anymore so destroy all manaproducers and your fine!
nr.2: if you then also stacks spells they cant even use spells that cost nothing, your especially save.
nr.3: ?????
nr.4: Profit? Not really, your know the threat and everyone hates you! xD
Mana dorks and landless decks aren't ever effected by this strategy. Also consistent tutoring / card selection.
@@kingfuzzy2 i said manaproducers and what produces mana?
But that strategie isnt solid, esp cause you need cards and everyone can have cards, esp those cards you have your own. At commander you dont only have 3x more cards to outvalue, also if you play mean things others try to stop you on one or the other way: kick from group or 3v1. As long you dont have more golden tickets + skilled your luck trait at maximum there is no go to strategie to win the game, maybe to annoy everyone^^.
I prefer fun over winning ; ) in cedh tho i just make the game as long as possible because i prefer winning past turn 12
I’m first to a video for once lol
Good for u man 😊
nice
it was a game with two of us left. i let him have a second turn on expro. they didnt win but they set themselves up for it and made it so i cant win via cmder or dmg in general but i was playing golgari so i just saced all my tokens and won via loss of life and not dmg. saltiest blue player ive EVER seen lol
Like... fourth?
People will always complain they're being unfairly targeted. I've seen people that are literally winning claim they're being unfairly targeted. It's why I only play with my close friend group. I hate seeing grown adults get upset and throw tantrums over a silly card game. Same reason I don't play at LGS's. Too many grown babies in this hobby.
Matt looks like he is in jail, lols
Expectation: This
Reality: Play Codie, gets removed instantly, cry
Haha, green is OP
*blue nervously on the background*: pls don't notice me...
Red chaos decks as whale.
when joey speakes about the thing, thats above the game and not on board, if only we would have a name for that .... WAIT, lets call it meta-game, that sounds good
Dualcaster infinite combos with Twinflame for the win, one of the more efficient two-card wins in mono-R.
I think the Fact or Fiction challenge in Niv Mizzet is wack. You are, at best, missing out on two damage when casting Fact or Fiction over any other 4 mana instant speed draw spell and Fact or Fiction is often enough better than cards like Glimmer of Genius it's worth giving up two damage. On top of that, this is operating under the assumption we're casting our 4 mana draw spell with our six mana must-kill commander in play, which isn't always the case. I understand the synergy argument, but switching out FoF for other options at the same mana cost falls into the trap of 'playing mediocre cards to make our good cards better', with 'better' in this case being sometimes you will get a Forked Bolt extra in exchange for playing a worse card draw spell.
first?
Real video start's at 4:54
I miss the days where there wasn't 5 minutes of sponsorship shootouts before the main topic
The herd of stylists doesn't come to Joey's place to do his hair before every show for free.
I don't agree with 2/3 of your challenge the stats.
Dual Caster has the Wizard type, is pretty cheap price wise and you just said ghostly flicker combo but there is also Twinflame or Heat Shimmer, both seeing play in Adeliz.
And Fact or Fiction is good because it doesn't draw cards in the deck, you already have so many draw triggers in Niv-Mizzet that can be stopped by Narset or Notion Thief and so you are often missing answers, Fact or Fiction can still get you your Pongify or Lightning bolt or w/e even under these effects.
I guess I thought that was covered when I pointed out there were plenty of situations where Dualcaster being on a body was useful.
@@danaroach29 Yeah I get that but I don't think it's overplayed. 5% sounds a lot at first but if you factor in the decks that run the combos. Or use the body or have the type be relevant. Inalla, feldon, chainer, Kalamax and Riku contribute 3.5/11k cards played on edhrec. (Actually I am surprised that only 41% are running it in chainer since flash is really good in that deck and the body matters).
Its not like you dont have a point and in some decks reverberate would be better, but most of the use of the card is either for the body or combo. Or its pretty scattered which i feel is more an effect of this card being 15 cent on cardmarket and filling out a nieche that becomes difficult to measure unless you go on a list by list basis.
I feel its unique enough to warrant 5%