Jochen Hemmleb: Mallory & Irvine Had THREE Cameras on Summit Day?
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- čas přidán 4. 05. 2022
- Everest historian Jochen Hemmleb believes Sandy Irvine might have ended up with three cameras on the day he and George Mallory left for the summit of Mount Everest.
To jump right to the conversation with Jochen, go to 3:02
Mark Synnott's Salon article about the camera and Sandy Irvine:
www.salon.com/2022/04/08/the-...
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I’m no fan of being in a echo chamber, I enjoy hearing other theories and checking them out for myself. I really enjoy this channel. 🍻
Glad you enjoy the channel, thank you!
I think you are the best of people. You have respected me every post we have exchanged. I did get my groove back. Thank you for taking the time to post. I will talk to everyone who has heard what I heard. You guys go!
Thanks so much! We're all here doing what we can to navigate our way through life....kindness and understanding makes it 1000 times easier to do. Cheers my friend
Always interesting Thom! Keep it up! I agree with Box Tank Gamer's comment on the camera. They had plenty at their disposal and no need to borrow Somervell's. I think Irvin would have packed the cameras because Mallory as the experienced mountaineer/leader would have wanted to be less bulked down in order to perform on the technical parts of the climb.
Spot on! Thank you for your thoughts on this, I appreciate hearing from you. Cheers
Hi Thom...I watched all 3. Fantastic as always. What a kind man you are!
Wow, thank you, I appreciate it. My mother used to scratch her head and she'd say, 'where did you come from?' haha, which I of course loved.
Thanks Thom! I've always been fascinated with Everest and it's history, especially this great mystery. Keep up the great work.
Doug, thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed it! I have a ton more coming in the weeks ahead....
Thank you again for the video Thom, it’s really a deep analysis of the camera matter. I’d love to see the Somervell clip about him lending his camera to Mallory, maybe it’s a bit of research I’ll find it. Have a good day!
Thanks so much! Yes, more and more old films are being unearthed....I bet we can find it, almost positive. Cheers!
i love your thoughtful analysis Keep on posting Thank you!
Thank you too! I appreciate it!
im stunned hearing all this news. thank you so much for sharing.
Thanks for listening, I truly appreciate it.
Really love your videos, thank you so much
You made my day, thank you!
So glad I happened upon your video here. I look forward to watching your previous vids now. Like other novices, this is fascinating to learn about. The great thing for me is following a story in history that will always be up for interpretation. Maybe it's more powerful just knowing the courage and determination us as humans can and will go through for knowledge or fame or whatever drives them to walk on the edge and take a step past into the unknown. All of this makes no good sense to me. That's exactly what keeps me drawn to the story. Thank you sir for this. It's time well spent.
Kevin, thank you so much. I have been putting similar podcast episodes up on my podcast called The Happiness Quotient. It seems that people enjoy getting their information here on CZcams. If you want to find some other episodes (that I'll endeavor to post here soon) check out my podcast here. In the 100+ episodes, many of them are Everest related: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-happiness-quotient/id1457211236 Cheers!
@@EverestMystery Thank you Thom 😊 I'm gonna do that 😊
Love this channel, you are such a knowledgeable guy! Keep up the good content
I truly appreciate it, and am super glad you are here
😊 Thank you very much! Wise words! A very good spirit 😊😊😊
I'm glad you enjoyed it!
🇨🇦whatever happened to civility. Thank you for sharing this information. 🌞
I'm leaning towards the less is more thought process and saying that Irvine had no more cameras than he actually needed, since any extra weight in his kit would have only made the climb more difficult.
You very well might be correct! I like the theory....thank you
Excellent how well this video did ❤.
I uploaded a clip about one of these cameras
Thanks so much! I'm likely going to re-release many of these videos that I did and shorten them. Early on in building the channel I was very chatty, and droned on and on about things that weren't to the literal point. So, expect some re-releases with updates and any new information. Thanks as always for being a part of this channel, means a lot.
My guy definitely carried a Pelican 1600 loaded with lenses and bodies to the summit. I think he was their first sponsored athlete.
Beast mode!
Never underestimate the ability of a mountaineer to take as many tools as possible to prove they were at the top
That is for sure!
Its unlikely that in the short time Mallory had to spend with Somervell after his climb that Mallory asked for the camera. This is almost confirmed by the fact that Somervell would have needed to change the film and he and Norton were to be the last assault on the summit. The June 8th climb, though planned by Mallory in advance, was not known of by Norton until Mallory told him shortly after they came down. Why would Somervell give Mallory a camera with spent film for a climb he was unaware of? He didn't. Mallory didn't carry a VPK; that's why one wasn't found on his body in 99'. So what about Irvine? Well, Synnott's story of the Diplomat and finding the VPK on Irvine is likely completely false too. If Mallory didn't have a VPK (and consequently didn't give it to Irvine), then Irvine's two cameras would be the pocket cinema and the Heidoscop (?). Therefore, if the Diplomat claims they found a VPK on a British climber at 8200m, *they/he are lying*. Pan Duo even said in the article she had no recollection of a camera. The fact that this story has taken off and is now tantamount to fact is disturbing.
M&I didn't climb the ridge, they made the summit, and there is no VPK on either corpse. If only the first search party checked for summit rocks before tearing the old Brit up. Pity.
If anything in these videos suggests that any of us are saying the information about the body and camera is fact, we've erred greatly or have been misinterpreted. It's just a story, which we make very clear. However, with multiple sources from different places telling the same thing, it builds a picture worth investigating. That's all. Mark nails it when he said that if he and I knew that story before our 2019 expedition, we probably would not have gone, at all. Done. National Geographic certainly wouldn't have invested so much in it. Much of the parts of this story are ambiguous, as Jochen says. I want to be clear about that. I don't think of any of it as fact, nor does Mark, nor does Jochen.
I think the idea of the VPK goes back to the Somervelle story...perhaps Graham Hoyland would be a fascinating interview about this (his grand nephew). That story of the VPK got rocketed into lore via the PBS Nova website and film, as well as the BBC film of the 1999 expedition...which included no less than three books (Hemmleb, Anker, Breashears for starters). One has to remember that in 1999 we barely even knew what the internet was. We still called it the World Wide Web. I had a new thing called email. It took five minutes to send a photo so that my 15 month old son could see his ol' man. Search engines weren't really a thing. The sleuths today have a million times the search power with oceans of information available to all.
I put a link to Mark Synnott's Salon article in the notes of this video, which lays out the story in a much clearer way. I'm still in agreement that it's never fact until it's....fact. And, it's not.
The last paragraph is conjecture. No one knows. No one. Only Mallory and Irvine know. We don't know what route they took, we don't even know if they made it past the First Step. The 1999 party did an extremely thorough search of all the pockets and not a single thread was left unaccounted for and not a single grain of sand was left behind. Virtually everything came back down..with the exception of the hour hand of Mallory's watch, which will haunt me to no end. Believe me, if there was a rock in one of his pockets, we would have brought it down. That is a fact. So, at least we have one fact. The criticism of how that search was conducted is really divisive and completely unproductive.
Cheers and thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. I truly appreciate it.
Small correction: Irvine didn’t have a Rolleiflex, it wasn’t invented yet. Maybe he had a Heidoscop, which was the “father” of the Rolleiflex.
@@federicofelloni1509
Thank you, was searching for the name of that and it didn’t come to me.
@@EverestMystery
> We don't know what route they took
We know they didn't take the ridge route because Mallory said in letters at the time it was impossible, that is a fact. We know that the 1933 team went to the ridge and described the second step as "impregnable"; would Mallory have been too stupid to draw a similar conclusion? He also said his intended path would take him either through the great Couloir or east of it through a gully. Neither of those routes are consistent with an attack along the modern route, but the gully route would match well with Odell's afternoon sighting of the pair climbing the third step just a few hundred feet below the summit. That's a fact.
> we don't even know if they made it past the First Step.
Original location of the O2 bottle location along the yellow band (with pressure still inside it according to Jake Norton, indicating it was cached) tells a different story.
> The 1999 party did an extremely thorough search of all the pockets and not a single thread was left unaccounted
If only there was a full video of the find and search that could be released to clear everything up. Oh wait.
> if there was a rock in one of his pockets, we would have brought it down.
Again, video would clear this up. But it likely shows too many negative things (standing on George with crampons, hacking at him with ice axes, prying him up like a "frozen log", etc.) to ever be released.
@@boxtankgamer6014 thanks for weighing in, it's much appreciated.
I'm sure there was at least one camera between them but I'm a bit confused/uneducated when it comes to Somerville's Kodak, if he shot pictures on his summit attempt with his camera how did he get to publish those upon return if they are on film in the camera he presumably gave to Mallory? How easy is it to remove/ load new film into one of those cameras? How easy is it to safeguard it from exposure? And how easy is it to do all of this on the North Col? Thanks!
Funny story , I first heard about Mallory in 1978 in a comic strip 2000ad in the story it showed the Russians climbing the north side of Everest in secret , in this strip he finds mallory and gets into a fight with Speznaz using Mallory as a Club . A strange way to get a first look at the M and I mystery I trust youl agree . Comics are so underrated lol
That is insane! I would love to see that comic. Comics are great satire on real life....let's find that comic.... Thanks Gary, great story....
@@EverestMystery Itwas a strip called Mach one the front page had wicked Artwork of Everest on the front with M and I with a Question mark on the end of it , the comic is worth hundreds of pounds now . I wish I had collected them they are an Iconic British Comic
@@EverestMystery I do also think the mystery of Russians on the North side of Everest came indirectly from this strip lol
@@EverestMystery I think he found him at 8100 meters too lol
I had just seen your interview with Mark Sinnott but do you think you might interview Ed Viesturs or Conrad Anker regarding the Chinese finding Irvine’s body in 1975?
Certainly a possibility...thanks for the suggestion! Cheers my friend!
I’m with you Thom, individuals who arbitrarily leave negative, hateful comments with absolutely no basis in fact have no place on yours or anyone else’s channel! As to my honest opinion, I believe Mallory and Irvine in fact did summit and died on the way back down as almost 100% do according to proven statistics! They were so close when last seen that there would be no reason for them to have given up and reversed course at that point!
Thanks for your awesome comments. I love this community and really want it to be a place where everyone can drop by and share their thoughts...and be respected for them, even if others disagree. I like your theory on them making the summit!
Start at 3:00
Thank you, I typically put these in the notes and will do so now. Cheers.
@@EverestMystery Really interesting content. Thank you for not taking it the wrong way. 👍
Fascinating stuff 👌🏻
For sure, thanks for dropping by!
There are drones now that could possibly reach the search areas too risky for a human to wander around. I feel deep down in my heart that Irvine had more than just one film roll. He would have kept these deep in his clothing to keep warm. Remember that they wore around thirteen layers of thin woollen warm under-clothing. Not just an exterior pocket. They had a jingoistic motive to prove their summiting.
I think I heard they don’t just let drones in there. Nat Geo or who ever did that search years back had to get special permission to be able to get their drone in the country. I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure I heard that.
Did they plan on getting a few rock samples from the summit? If so, what was the method to bring them back? Just a few in their pockets? Was any found in Mallorys pockets?
The answer to your first question is, "Yes!" The answer to your second question is unknown! The answer to your last question is either, the pockets were never even considered to be checked or, they were checked and either nothing was found or,... I'll let you guess the last possibility...
I have a rock from near the summit. We certainly would have found it if there was a rock or two in GLM's pockets. Cheers and thank you!
Thom (all) - have you seen The Summit of the Gods? On Netflix. Really good film. And is based around Mallory’s missing camera.
I admit that I haven't. I looked it up and it looks pretty fascinating. I'll check it out. Thanks for the heads up! Cheers
@@EverestMystery it’s fiction, an animated film but it is amazing. And ties in Mallory and his missing camera. Has great reviews.
Many thanks, I’ll check it out too.
Is there a citation for the video in which Somervell says he gave his VPK to Mallory?
Not sure if I understand the question. However, Graham Hoyland, who is Howard Somervelle's grand nephew, said that on many occasion he discussed giving the camera to GLM, and that the family wanted their camera back (saying it kindly, but taking very seriously that any images on it would technically be on Somervelle's camera). Thanks for watching, truly appreciate it
Good morning Thom, would you have a conversation with Michael Tracy on your show? Thanks, good day.
Maybe one day. Cheers and thank you for watching, always great to hear from people interested in this!
I think that might be a "No!"
@@EverestMystery Thanks for answering Thom, I appreciate it. I do think it would make for a very interesting conversation, informative to say the least, to have the two of you exchange thoughts on this incredibly fascinating story. I also think your viewers, and Michael's, would quite enjoy it. Thank you for your work.
@@edkiely2712 It might. Or not. I for one would thoroughly enjoy it. Let's see:)
@@EverestMystery Thanks for answering Thom. Do think it over:)
I dont think we will ever know, just let it go.
Watched a video of another Everest historian with contacts with the Chinese, saying Irvine was covered over with rocks and they found 1 camera in 1975 and couldn't develop the film and the one camera is in Chinese hands maybe at a museum.
The story certainly has many twists and turns. Stay tuned for more, I am working on other videos too. Thanks for watching!
can you name said historian please ?
@@philc.5100 czcams.com/video/glMT08zmAP0/video.html Mark Synnott interviewed by Thom Dharma Pollard Those Chinese have no interest in letting the world know, always their privacy is more important. Interview sounded legit with his Chinese contacts.
Rumor has it that a camera was found, that the camera had film in it and that the film was developed but did not provide images. Why not? In 1975, the film was 50 years old. What happens to 50-year old film? If kept in a light proof box and at stable temperatures, not much. But what about at elevations greater than 8000 meters? Cold in summer, very cold in winter. Blowing snow. Sunlight including lots of ultraviolet. Beyond being in a camera, what additional protection from light and weather did it have? What kind of condition was the camera in? Was it damaged in any way? Several people writing about the development of old film say it tends to fog up which is to say the silver tends to be reduced and the developed film dark and the correspond print light. And if the camera was damaged, it could leak light and fog the film.
Anyway, it is not enough to find the now empty camera. We really want to look at the film as developed. Are there any indications that any part of it was exposed? If so, how many frames?
I have a curator from the Eastman museum talking about this subject, I interviewed him last week...will share very soon!
I would love to find that 1970s bbc documentary , they were so good back then , I have seen Noel odell clip of this program , but nothing else . Love your work Thom. Please dont take my Writing stile as contentious , Is more my Comprehensive education than anything else ,
Gary, I think I can find that film....and we're good, this is what people do, discuss and weigh the varying opinions and elements of absolute fact. Cheers!
@@EverestMystery please do find it! I tried last night but to no avail
@@EverestMystery love to see that film cant wait . Just to let you know about the Tabliod Sun Newspaper ,It does not speak for Britain , there are whole cities like liverpool that wont read it , no kidding .
❤ ignore the haters …hate is ALL they have ….a very sad life for them 😊 !
Presumably, the camera/s would be 6x9cm format - so 8 shots on a roll. Would a climber carry spare films and attempt to change rolls in such an extreme environment - or would multiple pre-loaded cameras be the answer, despite the increased weight involved?
Didn’t the Chinese recover the camera in 1975? And the recent report was that they tried to develop the film but we’re unsuccessful?
It's all hearsay that they recovered the camera..however, multiple sources are saying the same thing. And the word is (was) that they botched the developing of the film. Ugh!
Hi Thom, thanks for your videos, I have recently become fascinated with Everest and in particular the1924 British expedition. How lucky we are in this day and age that there are people such as yourself out there willing to share your first hand knowledge, wisdom and insights into Mt Everest on a public platform such as this.
I have heard suggestions recently that perhaps the truth is already out there regarding the whereabouts of Sandy Irvine and that certain people are sitting on this pot of Gold, waiting for the centenary of SI and GM going missing in 2024 to release said information.
May I ask, what is your opinion on this? And do you believe that we will ever know the real truth regarding whether they ''made it'' or not. Also, do you think that it would be fair to label them as the first ever summiters, seeing that they did not make it down successfully as Sir Edmund did in '53?
Hi Phil, wow, you found this video and it's not even live yet...unlisted. Scratching my head right now! Props to you! You have a solid thought on the possibility of some'one' or thing, sitting on knowledge of the anniversary of their disappearance. I tend to think if anyone is sitting on it, it's the Chinese...and it's anybody's guess as to what they do with that information. Now, it's easy to say this or that about 'China' but fact is, I've had really great relationships with the Liaison Officers there, amazing climbers and highly intelligent, fascinating people who, like us, love their family and friends, and country. I hope I've reached at least the tip of the iceberg on the questions...and also want to thank you for your kind words. I went years, decades actually, without talking about this. Of late, it seems as though everyone thirsts for it and is inspired by the story. I love that. I love meeting people who are curious about it, as well. Stay thirsty, my friend and, keep sleuthing! Cheers!
I have a ‘gut feeling’ that they reached the summit. I also have a ‘gut feeling’ that the Chinese tampered with corpses and stole physical evidence.
Both are possible! Thank you for watching!
On a side note I read in Tom Hozell book mentioning that the Russians were on the North Side in the 1950’s was this ever proven?
I'm going to ask Jochen Hemmleb about this....I believe this was 1952...and I haven't seen anything to substantiate the rumors of this taking place. However, Jochen is FAR more versed in this topic. (I'll email him now). Thanks for watching!
HE TOLD me he had 10 all wireless
Probably got left in a tent at High Camp.... :)
It would be so cool for someone to find the camera and Irvine. But in some ways it doesn't matter about the camera to me they where very brave men! The equipment to they had was marginal I think. Thanks for Video.
That would be cool and I agree....thanks for weighing in, much appreciated!
Would the film survive?
Check out the May 30, 2022 video called George Mallory's Camera, we talk about just that topic! Thank you for the interest!
Thom, who is this Michael Tracy who refutes every single thing that you, Conrad Anker and Tom Holzel says about the Mallory and Irvine mystery. If you say the sky is blue, he says it's purple, if you say tomato, he says tamato. Now he's stating that Pan Duo said in an article that she found a body but no camera. Is Michael Tracy bringing up conflicting arguments because he has actual evidence to the contrary or is he doing it just to get attention?
Mike, thanks. Since 1999 I've read and heard so many critics voice their opinions about what they believe to be truths regarding our expedition. It happened again in 2019. The difference between 1999 and 2019 is that the platform for sharing one's thoughts have multiplied by the billions.I just can't get caught up in it. My intent is to be positive, affirming and persistent in my life, to focus on the people closest to me, to not judge anyone for the choices they make in their lives. Simply put, Mike, the mandatory go-to tool is the filter that weeds out the 'lunch room s***' and keep pouring on the love. Peace my friend - I know I didn't literally answer your question, but then again, perhaps I did :)
@@EverestMystery Thank you Thom! Yes, you DID answer my question, I really appreciate it! I've literally been reading you, Krakauer, Anker, Norton for 20 years and all of sudden there are these know it alls trying to dispute everything that is known. And yes there is a bunch of "lunch room ****" out there!! Lol!
if you wanna know who Michael Tracy is, and what his arguments are, and what evidence he has to back them up... then simply watch his videos and judge for yourself.
although he has a certain tone towards others at times, i find his research and ideas to be very interesting and absolutely not something he is doing just to get attention.
if his research finds information conflicting with anyone he will point it out, some people do not like that and may take it personally, and i dont think he cares... and why should he not point it out if he has evidence contradicting someone else?
if someone is being dishonest or deceitful then he will point that out too, but he will always show why... and i have seen this myself, so i can understand the sometimes negative tone.
i think the negativity here goes both ways...
there is a group that is on friendly terms and if he has a conflicting opinion or points out a mistake from one person in that group then everybody takes it the wrong way...
i also think he sometimes comes off as to negative and it would benefit everyone if he toned it down a little bit.
if mistakes are made they can be forgiven, but then honesty is required... if something is left out of a story to shape a more favorable impression from the public then that is an issue!
@@ralphbooger4756 I HAVE listened to him and I'm not impressed. There's no reason not to believe the members of the 1999 and 2019 teams.
@@RedSox4JC
no, i do not think you have...
im not sure if you mean about something specific or just in general, but either way, im not gonna go in to details, all i am going to say is that there are several mistakes pointed out, and there are people shown to be deceptive... and instead of it being addressed it is simply ignored.
but if you are not aware then of course you see no reason...
Hi thom, hope all is well… I never really see any discussion on the backpack Mallory would of been carrying, and the possibility the camera been in there… now this moves onto the next thing, I couldn’t help but notice on the videos on how good Mallorys back looked. No cuts or anything, so the possibility is, he still had his back pack on when he come to resting point, and it acted as a cushion.. and his backpack removed when it was first discovered in 1975…. You were there thom so you got to see things better than we did, and your thoughts on this?
P.s happy new year
I have heard very little on the backpack....but have often wondered that, to some degree. My initial thoughts were that the backpack was jettisoned after the O2 bottles were depleted....however, this thought on GLM's back being in very good condition is worth further consideration. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
You! It's you, isn't it Thom? You've got video footage and pictures of Mallory and Irvine on the summit because you took the cameras from their pockets and stashed them in your snow-colored Santa beard, didn't you? You dirty ole such and such! Obviously, I'm kidding. I apologize. Sarcasm is almost a love language for me. Anyway, could you even imagine if there was moving picture footage of Mallory and Irvine at the top? People would flip.
Why don't you have a conversation with Michael tracy? Also in your bacground there is a hinduism sign hanging?
Have you studied Hinduism?
I've studied Buddhism primarily, went very deep into it for many years. Hinduism is fascinating to me and I've recently gotten into the Upanishads, endeavoring to learn. I truly appreciate your taking the time to watch the video!
Jesus is Lord .
What State do you live in? I obviously live in Seattle. I would love to talk to you , Warrior Traveler to Warrior Traveler. Did Irvine have another camera that was not a Kodak? The guide said it was not a Kodak. He definitely said it did not have bellows. The film was protected from the weather much better than a Kodak would have protected it. Alyx,( What can I say it's Welsh. ) I'm Alyx. (Alyxandre) a name from a grandfather. All my names are from male relatives. Robert Alyxandre George Arbuckle. What a name to give a kid ! Now I love it . Stop The Stall !!
Apologies for the long delay on replying....love the 'Warrior Traveler' thing. I'm in New England... I'm glad you took the time to watch the video. (I'm not notified of replies to previous comments). I'm glad you found the channel and hope you're enjoying some of the new content. Cheers!
The camera had no bellows, first clue, it did not look at all to the guide like a Kodak. He said the film was protected much better than in a Kodak. The film came out with pictures of the two on the summit. The Chinese names from forty years ago are scrambled in my mind. But I do remember Kuo was the name that both the young man used, and his father the guide. I have no reason now to believe my ex-wife. She's a 68, year old pot smoker. I put up the name she gave me. Probably wrong, but I remember Kuo , Lee's grandfather. I knew my refugee friend as Lee. On.On the firearms form I remember seeing, Kuo, anything else is probably wrong. Though Kuo Li is possible I don't remember that. The guide's grandson and the older man, the guide had two Immigration status' The son was a naturalized citizen. His Grandfather wasn't. I sold a 1911 Colt .45 and a .22cal. 9 shot survival pistol. I believe it was a Harrison and Richardson. It was in stainless steel. The grandfather was paranoid as a person can be and not be pathological about it. He had dragged his grandson all over China to Tien Tsin,then caught a boat to Hong Kong, then Canada and refugee status in the US. Alyx.