I FINALLY take a look at the MiSTer project - Is it worth the hype?!
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- čas přidán 7. 06. 2024
- My review of the MiSTer project, an FPGA based system designed to play arcade, console & computer games. It does this with almost 100% accuracy and zero latency. Get more information at: www.misteraddons.com
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** DISCLAIMER: The MiSTer was provided to me for review, however nobody is reviewing this video before it goes live and all of the opinions are my own ** - Hry
I don't understand complaining about games not running well on hardware emulated 486 that never ran well on a real 486 PC. Duke Nukem 3D, Screamers, Descent 2 ... those all needed at least a Pentium or 5x86 to run decently. If anything, I'd say what you observed highlights just how accurate the 486 emulation is.
I wonder if the MiSTer could replicate a Pentium with 3dfx. If PSX and Saturn can run well which seems to be the case, there might be enough headroom for better PC performance. Descent 2 is a great game, I'd love to have it run well on MiSTer.
@@spotifyseascapessmoothjazz I dunno. PSX and Saturn are both RISC based, which I assume makes them take up less space on an FPGA. Also I think generating higher clock rates needed for pentium emulation is more difficult(although not impossible) since it only has a 50Mhz clock generator
@@timseguine2 There exist more powerful FPGA circuits than DE10-nano that's used for this, but they are more expensive. We might see more ambituous projects in the future if the price drops, but the bigger problem is the higher difficulty in mapping more advanced systems. Core creators use some pretty arcane methods already and I have no idea just what kind of person we'd need to map, say, Dreamcast
@@spotifyseascapessmoothjazz Unfortunately not gonna happen - the AO486 core as it is takes up something like 90% of the FPGA’s units, so it is pretty much running at the limit of the hardware as it sits.
The DE-10 Nano is a great fit for this project because of its cost - intel uses it as a loss-leader to get FPGA developers in their ecosystem as opposed to say Xilinx. There are more capable FPGA cores with more resource units, but they are an order of magnitude more expensive so yeah, they ain’t used for gaming like this.
It's totally worth the price. With the accuracy, amount of emulated systems and upgrade options for various I/O. Now compare it to all those mini-consoles that are mostly based on shitty android boards with shitty controllers and the price for every one of them. Nobody can tell me that those old clunky controllers are better than modern wireless gamepad. And if you want you can use any other PC controller that can be mapped including arcade sticks and racing wheel. Mister just kicked all the competition in the ass. It's worth the price just for great Amiga emulation alone.
"Why won't this 486 play pentium games?!?" - the review
😂 Yeah its kinda weird examples mjr chose. I guess a second Video would be nice. More accurate ;)
I swear to $DEITY Screamer ran like this on my old 486DX2@66. It wasn't until I got the Pentium 133 that I could really play the game :)
Glad mister is getting attention, but this presenter had a lot of catching up to provide a proper presentation.
Looked to me it only had issues with 3D games, and after all, 3Dfx made a fortune addressing slow 3D rendering on 386 and 486 machines (until ATI & nVidia clipped their wings)
Yeah he did the same thing with his review about the steam deck. "Why won't it play GOG games out of the box, why do I have to do these extra steps but not for games on steam." For a device named the Steam Deck😅
Your expectations for the AO486 core are a little off. It has '486' in the name of the core for a reason. It's not replicating a Pentium processor. Specifically, it's implementing a 486SX processor.
I feel like 10 mins of research of this device on his part before making this video would have helped alleviate his confusion about that.
@@sunekoo It's a problem for many of his videos. He doesn't do an appropriate level of research, which then has him making comments that are very misleading.
bad floating point on the core, they said it might not be able to fit it.
@@kinggaldon maybe one day...
@@goldenretrogames Exactly. Having a big built in audience has stopped him trying anymore. It's a shame as his videos used to be really good. Now he's just worth a quick look before you search for a more indepth/accurate video.
Don't expect the mister to run anything from after 1995. The ao486 core is already pushing the FPGA to it's limits, and it doesn't even have a floating point unit (so it's really a 486sx and not a 486dx). Adding a Pentium core with Voodoo support, or a Dreamcast core is not going to fit on the FPGA. PS1 and Sega Saturn are the upper limits.
I think the mister is over rated and over priced. I'm sticking with groovymame in my cab.
MiSTer is a off shoot of the MIST project .Which was mainly focused on FPGA implementation of Amiga and Atari ST .These are some of the best cores on MiSTer which weren't talked about unfortunately .I was disappointed MJR compared the MiSTer to a arm based Multi System when it truth it should be compared to a Analogue styled device
it's not as if the guy actually understands what he's talking about, or that his opinion is valued by anybody who does.
Your history lesson just gave me insight into why it is called MIST. Am I right then that MIST comes from MiniMig for Amiga and the ST from Atari ST? Or is there an actual acronym at play here?
@@NoSpamForYou yes and the MiSTer was a cheaper open source version
@@DeathBoy2098 TBH I do value MJR's opinion but when you compare the cores of MiSTer against the Analogue .The MiSTer gives you much greater bang for buck .RPI's are cheap but they come with many more compromises cycle accuracy is a big one
@@marymarshall8847 It does depend quite a bit on the core and the game. For instance, here at least is frame accurate CPS2, something that is a huge leap forward for the fighting game community:
czcams.com/video/EblLG8geeQU/video.html
"What if they start adding support for PSX and Saturn?"
Yeah, those two cores are well into development already.
1:1 Saturn? Yes please.
I think just this week they released video of the Sony home screen with some homebrew running, so heck yes they are close!
@@billford171 when do you think the PS1 core is going to be able to play games normally? A year? A couple of years?
@@Jucelegario no idea, but those developers are insanely good at what they do. I wouldnt be suprised if they cranked that out 1st qtr of 2022.
@@billford171 lets hope so
The low performance on 3D games is the lack of a simulated FPU (floating point unit) on the 486 core. It runs like an Intel 486 SX would if it was clocked about approximately 90Mhz (which is a processor that never existed). Real Intel 486 SX processors capped out at 33Mhz. This shouldn't affect many games designed for maximum performance on 486 systems and most games designed to run on a at least a 486 SX system.
Issues start to crop up with some (mostly 3D) games that released after the Pentium was introduced (1993) and expected a performant FPU to be present. Non-intel "586" processors like the Cyrix 5x86 with slow FPUs had similar performance issues at the time.
Yeah, it’s basically pre-Duke3D specs. Like Lucas Art adventure games, Civilization, Sim City 2000, Railroad Tyccon etc. Wish he tried some of those.
Yep. sx 486 was slow as hell even for regular old Doom. Just not a good enough processor for those early 3d games. It seems to be running them fine for what it is emulating. A pentium 133 or 166 would be the logical next core.
@@lukeannett those won't fit. Current Ao486 is more emulation than FPGA, AFAIK
I would like to say that most (if not all) 2.5D games like Doom, Duke 3D or Hexen don't use FPU at all. So lack of the FPU unit is not an issue. The first major 3D game that required FPU was Quake and that game needs at least Pentium to run properly anyway.
Paar86 you still need a Pentium for most levels on Duke3D. I played it on a DX100 and some levels just ran like ass.
All you actually need to dip your toes in this, is a de10nano, those are 150, to run everything you can get away with around 200, in many cases the complete kit is not necessary, and you can upgrade along the way.
Not quite, you need the DE10-Nano and an OTG hub (which can be cheap) and you really want the SDRAM or you can only play a few cores. But the point remains that you can get by with a fully functional system for around $250
@@dinierto Most cores are fully playable without the SDRAM upgrade. The main things that need SDRAM are NeoGeo and 32mb GBA games and a couple other things. You can 100% have a working MiSTer setup on a budget and build from there.
@@AngryGhost114 yes, it's true, you really only need the DE10-Nano and an OTG board. I always recommend the SDRAM though because many of the popular cores people will want to play require it, and it's only $50. But definitely important to be aware of what you can play with which hardware to make that decision
Theres only a few popular cores that can skip the SDRAM. Most will work with a cheaper 32 meg though.
@@dinierto So $200 less than is claimed in this video then?
You were just loading the Rambo "picture" file - the game is a separate file in that D64 (disk image)... I have a lot of interest in the MiSTer, but it's affording the hardware and the time to do it justice.
LMFAO 🤣🤣🤣
he needed to load the image, not the image!
lol no wonder he spent a year trying to get nascar to run
If you care about accuracy, it's worth every penny. A good chunk of my original hardware is now either packed up or sold off. Digital and analog outputs on a little box is ridiculously nice, it's so easy to swap between my gaming monitor and PVM. And now with PS1 and even Saturn looking like real possibilities, the future of the MiSTer is looking pretty amazing.
But the price is steep. We're talking 600 Dollars for the bare minimum, for the board and a 128MB expansion board. Although the price is reasonable in comparison to the original hardware this can replace.
It really isn't worth every penny, though. It would've been if it were to come out 10+ years ago, when most PC+Linux emulation was worried more about getting games to run at all than accuracy, but most emulators at this point already do incredibly well on PC, to the point where it's little, if any, different than playing on the original console, even on a crappy computer. In reality, it's a glamorized emulation box that does less than a PC does, sometimes negligibly better, with fewer options, at a high price point. Unless you're just someone who likes tinkering with your system more than using it to game, it's just not worth it.
@@Sin_Alder so many languages and you decided to speak truth
@@tarstarkusz what? That's not even remotely true. You can get a complete setup with IO, USB, and SDRAM for as low as $450. While steep, it's not as ridiculous as you're talking.
@@dinierto I'm going by the prices I found the day I posted that. Can you tell me where you can get it for that price?
The 486 performance seems to match my memory pretty well. I played a lot of Duke3D on a 486 and that's about what I remember it running at.
I would like to mention that setup of the MiSTer is not as difficult as it's portrayed here. It's actually as easy as Retropie (for a basic installation) and ultimately much easier if you throw in the tweaking, Metadata scraping, etc. that is generally involved in Retropie. There's a script called update_all that installs all the basic cores and sets up the directories for you. Basically write image to disk, run it once, setup controller, add update_all, add roms, play games.
@Ivan Zhao What he means is that it's simple to get to a retropie install stage. You download an image as with retropie, flash it to an sd card and then run a simple setup script that does everything with no user input. All you are left to do then is add roms. This is simple as they sit on a fat32 part of the sd card so you can do it over network or direct from your main PC/MAC. It really is quite easy.
I like to also mention that a RPI is cheaper, and just as good and is more than enough for most people.
@@zakanpeki5546 that's a great point that's perfectly valid. There's a lot of shaming and gatekeeping on both sides trying to make people feel bad about choosing one or the other but really people just need to look at the options and educate themselves. So long as you know the differences and advantages of each there's not a wrong choice. We all love playing retro games so let's have fun!
@@zakanpeki5546 It is not "Just as good" please don't speak shit about something that you haven't even used, the last part you are right about though... a rpi is usually more than enough for most.
@@zakanpeki5546 yeah RPi is definitely not "just as good". If you can't tell or don't care about the difference though, then RPi is for you.
I remember running both Duke Nukem 3D and Screamer on an actual 486 and yeah, that's exactly what they look like. Looks like the MISTer is emulating a 486 pretty much perfectly to me.
I had 486 DX2 50 MHz. Duke was basically unplayable on it because there were many slowdows hindering your ability to aim. Screamer wasn't really smooth but it was playable (at least in 320x200/240 mode).
Yeah 3D games needed to run on Pentium-class systems.
This thing is an Analogue NT, Super NT, MegaSG, NeoGeo, all with flashcarts as well as just about arcade perfect CPS1 and CPS2. The 486 core is super early but the above and more are amazing and worth the $250 it would take to get you going. The IO board, custom Usb Hub, and fancy case are just extras really.
But it can’t read my original game modules
@@arminius504 Nobody forces you to do a thing, you can spend an insane amount of money to buy original consoles or analogue consoles in which you can put your original cartridges or you can buy a Mister and download every game for every consoles that can run on Mister for free, I chose the free option because all of my retro games and consoles got stolen by a junky, I'm not paying for the same consoles and games a second time.
@@arminius504 Technically it can if you know how to program.
You know those gameboy/snes/Genesis cartridge extractor for PC?
Yeah it can just extract those things and load it up in it's ram which is way faster than those cartridge.
@@dansmith5012 Having both also an option. Sorry to hear about the theft of your systems, that sucks.
@@arminius504 Add a little RFID sticker to every original game, then hook up a scanner to a small SBC like RPi with a database/xml list of all your games. Pass the game media over top of the scanner to automatically ID the game and have the RPI load the core/ROM in Mister. Not sure if anyone has that going on Mister, but someone was already working on remote front ends running on other systems for it.
The Mister is worth it's weight even if its just to play CPS2 games. The idea of having a 1:1 arcade perfect version of street fighter 2 super turbo at home... I love it.
That's the main reason I got it! 💪 The rest is a bonus. A bonus from the gaming gods
@@beansoup1088 X-men COTA !!
@@DestinyFomo right on! 💪
Exactly. Just the accurate cps2 arcade boards are worth the money.
Why so much hate for Destiny sheesh smh
The biggest advantage of a CRT is response time!! The whole game doesn't blur the moment things start moving quickly, like they do on the VAST majority of flatscreens.
Looks interesting! Nice to see those game captures and short movie clips, it brings back heartwarming memories!
It ran Phantasmagoria (PC) really well. I was pleasantly surprised!
Playing some old sierra games on the 486/Amiga cores with the mt32-pi (Roland MT-32 emulator) is phenomenal. Giving it new life to some old school games!
I've been wanting one of these since it jumped on the scene. Definitely will get asap. Great vid mate!
A lot of his points are misleading I have a MISTer and absolutely love it so please don’t take his word as gospel do your homework .. you definitely won’t be disappointed if you buy a MISTer
The real Jewel in the MiSTer's crown it its Amiga core. It really is superb. I have a HD workbench install and a WHDLoad games library. The accuracy is astounding.
I need to spend more time with the Amiga games. Didn't own one as a kid, so I don't have a ton of experience.
@@MetalJesusRocks when you get around to trying the Amiga core (minimig) be sure to follow this guide for the easiest set up with complete game library. It’s an absolute treasure trove!!! czcams.com/video/SfrQXeBb49Y/video.html
Totally agree man. The clue is in the name. A(Mi)ga ST . WHDload is great for launching games that would've been on multiple floppies 💾. An Amiga 1200 with a ram board is about the same cost as a MiSTer . The 8bitsforever boards are around €150 but require an Amiga case/keyboard. Runs all the main cores and does not require a DE10 nano.
The Minimig core alone is worth the price.
Usually love your vids but this one is somewhat of a miss. The MISt is all the analogue consoles in one and much much more. Sure you can't insert carts or cd's but this is by far the best solution for all retro platforms!!
I mean, he compares it to the mini systems... like, lmao...
I did not think this would be worth the cost for the whole kit in the nice MISTer Addons aluminum case at first. I was wrong. This is the best retro gaming purchase I have made. It not only supports all the console and handhelds I wanted to play, but it has really made me fall in love with the Atari ST and Amiga. Two computers I could never afford as a kid.
Also, it's worth every penny compared to buying each individual emulator separately. Sure it's not 100%, but very close and it's an all in one with nearly latency free analog and digital video out. ;)
The RetroCastle kit also seems pretty nice and it's very compact. Sure, you end up with just 4 USB ports instead of 7, but I rarely ever use more than 3. But I'm not gonna lie, that MiSTerAddons case also looks absolutely stunning.
Omg, you didn't even scratched the heart of the cores, Amiga support, GB,GBA dual player support, the auto update script for cores...
Been looking at building a custom arcade cab, mostly for CPS2/3 stuff, and this is likely the best option. Don't know much about modding other than the usual tutorial/cut/paste stuff, so good to hear getting set up is manageable for someone like me. Thanks for the input, and rock on MJR!
don't forget to play neogeo as well runs amazing i couldn't believe it, i have an mvs-1b board and supergun setup i couldn't tell them apart at gunpoint lol
If youre only going to run arcade games on your cab I would suggest a PC based groovymame setup instead of this. That is assuming you're going be using an 15khz arcade CRT monitor, which you should be,it looks the best.
This is hands down the best console I've ever bought. It replaced all my old consoles. I still have them... But i use this for convience.
It’s my favorite toy in a long time. Really enjoy the tinker aspect of it and am building an arcade cabinet to house it along with a consumer crt with s-video connected to it via a vga converter. Amazing results. Love that it’s an evolving project and new arcade cores are coming out monthly. Keeps it exciting.
Seeing Montezuma's Revenge on screen for a few seconds brings me back my childhood...awesome video as always.
I really love that game as well. Played it a ton on my Atari 2600 and C64
You had a lot of diarrhea as a kid?
Every time I eat Taco Bell 😉
had the mister for a couple years, loved it so much and put my super nt, mega sg, and core grafx 2 with super sd system 3 on ebay in the last few weeks. Worth every penney
I'm thinking about doing the same thing
@@parisgist it was a hard decision, that stuff meant alot to me. The mister is that good
My Mister is modded in a NES case i had left since my Nintoaster. love the Mister, the ability to run on hdmi and scart is awesome.
Would love to see an updated mister vid! Thinking about jumping in sometime in the next year.
Hi Jason, I love your videos, however, I think you are fundamentally missing the technical details of what an FPGA is. FPGAs are used in every vertical modern tech industry, because it also you to build an implementation, in hardware (via the programmable gate arrays), a chip. The DE-10 is a development board meant for aviation, medical, automotive and industrial applications. The typical use would be to design your chip, take that design and have the chip manufactured. Think of it as a flexible platform to enable engineers to rapidly produce designs that can be shipped to a chip manufacturer. The MiSTeR project works so well because the SOC (with ARM cores) is able to run Linux and that allows for flexible loading of "cores" to the FPGA. What you are experiencing via the project is not emulation, it's a re-implementation of circuitry from the original hardware. The Arcade cores are reverse engineered via schematics and taking probes to boards. Some of the cores do have bugs, however, the accuracy exists because it's a modern representation of the physical components. That is a massive distinction between emulators and using an FPGA core. The easiest way to think about it is like this: the NES core will be more accurate than an emulator, because it's an actual NES - the chips and circuitry are just implemented via flexible platform that allows you to load and unload those circuits. For 3D acceleration hardware to exist, that hardware needs to be implemented as an extension to the core, or a separate implementation of the old 3dFX hardware (I'm suspecting there's not enough room on the DE-10 to do that). Also, many, many people use this strictly as an console implementation and not just arcade core loading. It's worth doing some research on this, not only because you have such a great reach with your subscribers, but because it can hurt of diminish the work of the many developers who are performing the act of preservation (MiSTeR is almost like the hardware equivalent of something like MAME). Keep up the good work and I hope this information helps you.
While you're correct with everything, MJR has never really been about the technical details. This isn't the channel for that. He comes from a more enduser/fan perspective. If Jesus put your above info in a video I would have noped out of the video or just fell asleep and I'm sure others would have too. He didn't "miss" your info, it's just not his usual thing. If you want to know more about MiSTer's technical explanations, there's other channels for that.
modern vintage gamer is a good channel for homebrew stuff I think.
@@jasperfredrickson4420 it's not because he doesn't want to bog down his channel with technical details.. he clearly doesn't understand the FPGA technology. it's pretty obvious.
MJR's real name is Jason? Interdasting
FPGA developers: Spend years making a core literally frame and cycle accurate
Audio engineers: Measure sound accuracy using Fourier transforms to specifically emulate a range of sound chips
Game collector fetishists: This seems "pretty close" in terms of accuracy, I guess
Just because they've spent time working on something doesn't mean it's 100%
MiSTer is constantly being developed for and a lot of these cores are not finished works, so yes... They are performing complicated calculations, and yes they still have more work to go before the majority of these cores are actually performing at 100% hardware emulation.
I am still not sure how much FPGA emulation is accurate and worths its money, as they are quite expensive and software emulators are free and work really good.
@@Gumplayer2 That's a personal choice friend. If you don't notice or are fine with software emulators, then that's completely fine. No difference between saying "I'd rather use CEMU than a Wii U" and "I'd rather use retroarch instead of an FPGA"
A lot of this stuff is for people who care about preservation. For me, all of this is well worth its value. That being said I also help design some cores, work with low-level electronics, and generally enjoy micro-processors & micro-controllers nvm the entire FPGA community.
Most people (once again, the average human, not an electronics hobbyist) agree that the Raspberry Pi is even too much money for what you can do with it in yet there's a massive community behind it and they're just getting cheaper with each revision. Same will happen with FPGA if the community gets big enough and enough improvements are made in the circuit design. So it all just depends on where your appreciation lies and how much you care about all of this. Will you particularly notice the difference between software and hardware emulation? Maybe not. Do a lot of us who work with this stuff every day? Absolutely. Worth is just dependent on how hardcore you are about it. (Think audiophiles. Sony XM4's are fantastic, but most people will get by just fine with included galaxy buds)
@Lane Howard Thank you for response. I am retro-gamer for many years. Emulation and old school PCs and consoles is my passion. For now I can completely agree that it really makes sense to have real device, rather than software emulation. That is why I started to buy some computers from my childhood. It is really huge difference to play on real device, again not only technically, it is about authentic feelings, when you know it is real, not fake, not emulation. I recently met this idea of FPGA technology, and even bought one of such devices (ZX-DOS+) Seller gave long list of supported devices, and most of them do not work as expected or at all. I have frustrating experience for now. As a partially tech man, I liked this idea of hardware emulation, it makes some sense for me. But I still have three questions to all of you, FPGA men: 1) Is it really 100% accuracy? Or you would like to have it in future? That is big difference. 2) Is it really hardware emulation or just another way of software emulation of lower level? 3) Is there any real case where I can see side-by-side software and FPGA emulation to see real difference? How big it is? 0.5% 1%? Yes, sometimes software emulators are really bad for some old platforms(consoles, computers), but many of them does not give reasons to suffer. And remember!!! How many great features they add to gaming experience! Rewind back, retro achievements, save/load slots, netplay, streaming and many many many others what you will not have on real devices or FPGA emulation probably. When I watched video about Mister I can see very simple user interface, I believe it does not have mentioned features, which I am happy to have... I would like to try this Mister device one day, just to have my own experience of it, but I can tell you for sure, I am happy with software emulation now and sometimes I can just buy real devices, don't see reasons to have intermediate solutions. IMHO
@@Gumplayer2 Didn't mean to put you on the defense lol. I'm sure you love them very much. So FPGA the entire point of it is to program the gate arrays to be an exact replica of the original hardware. Think the Analogue devices! Once properly programmed an FPGA and the original device have absolutely no differences. The cool thing is that you can start adding to it after that and add in features that were never there before like save states.
So:
1) Is it 100% accurate? Depends on the core. Can it be? Yes, are all cores working the exact same as their hardware counterparts? No.
2) Yes it's really hardware emulation, you're changing the way electricity flows through each gate array to exactly mimic the likeness of the original hardware. FPGA's are hardware emulation while Dolphin, SNES9x, and the like are all software emulation
3) Yes you would be able to see the difference if the core is optimized. It's no different than pulling out original hardware and playing it side by side an emulator. Will there be huge differences? No. Will there be a noticeable one to people who play retro games all the time? Yes.
Yes you're correct there's lots of great features software emulation has that FPGAs might never have. That's not the point of them though. One is to preserve the software of a system while the other is there to preserve the hardware of a system. Glad you have found that what you use currently works great! Everyone has their threshold of what they can deal with during collecting and playing.
If you're looking for more info I'd research FPGAs to see how they mimic hardware, and then also view someone more technical like MVG I saw he put out a video yesterday though I haven't had a chance to watch it yet. I'd imagine he goes much farther in depth though than someone like Metal Jesus. (czcams.com/video/lVPa5EW5mp8/video.html&ab_channel=ModernVintageGamer)
Mister is the future of preserving these games. As somebody that’s plays pretty hardcore I can vouch that mister is a great investment. Better to get into sooner than later, get yourself acquainted. It’s a simulation experience more than emulation experience.
@hjf4a2 A company? It's an open-source community project where hardware is replicated in either Verilog or VHDL which can be reasonably easily ported to other FPGA platforms. You're completely misinformed on what this box is.
@hjf4a2 you are boring cpt obvious. And you dont get it. 😂
@hjf4a2 what company would that be? have you seen the size of the thing you're comparing to a full blown PC? it's smaller than half your GPU upgrade.
I just ordered mine (just the DE-10 board) literally 2 hours ago.
Good decision. Congrats
Just got Analog I/O board and connected it to my 30 year old Amiga monitor and it's simply stunning!
Man, seeing Stunts run brought back all sorts of memories building insane tracks and racing them with my best friend at his house when I was 12!
I have the original MiST (~$250) that the MiSTer is based on. The original MiST was intended to just accurately reproduce the Amiga (500/1000) and Atari ST 16-bit computers (Mi = Amiga/ST = ST) and can support higher end 680x0 CPUs, but the MiSTer was expanded with a faster FPGA and other add-ons.
From my memories of trying to run those 3d games on a 486 DX/2 66mhz: Looks about right, I'd say. My old machine really struggled with those 3D titles, with only a really small number of exceptions…
The ao486 core for MiSTer is close to the performance of a 486 DX33 so it is going to struggle with some of the more demanding MS-DOS games.
I also had the DX2 66mhz. Performance were better than the Mister core. I mean, I never had problems running Descent or Doom. I remember having worked a lot on NASCAR to make it playable. The best I got was around 17-20 fps... all low details and probably 320x200 😂
Love the video Jason!!
I built one. I have an extensive console and game library. My problem is that I'm never home because I'm a trucker. The MiSTer allows me to take most of my retro library on the go for month on end. Even though my build has the analog I/O board, I've never hooked it up to my CRT; I use that board exclusively for stack completion within the case, heatsink fan, and the three hardware I/O buttons. When I'm home, the real consoles are already hooked up on switchers, so I never felt the point.
I would say I am a fan of the MiSTer. ;-) For the DOS side, you just have to know the limits and you can have a great time. 486 66SX not DX or below and everything should feel like it did in the early 90's. I did include game examples that pushed the limits for the purpose of the Devs having something easy to test against, if development picks back up on the AO486 core.
Got mine a few months ago; Never touching emulation again; Such a huge difference, especially if you use a controller with low latency.
What's the difference between using an emulator on pc?
@@GodleyX the biggest selling point to this is a lot tighter latency. Getting as close to zero latency as possible is crucial for older games that relied on twitch reaction time.
Another thing is the video quality. Being able to use an old CRT allows the games to be played using the video technology the developers would've been expecting to further tighten the timing.
@@GodleyX it costs money
Love to finally see a MiSTer next to your tv, MJ! I think you'll want to make a follow-up video in tue future: you have barely scratched the surface in this video.
One thing I think you would be well suited to demonstrate is the amount of items needed to recreate the quality of the experience delivered in a MiSTer for the price. For example, the MiSTer contains the equivalent of a DAC, FrameMeister, Jamma board, every console / arcade it recreates... For both new and old collectors, MiSTer is great to simplify your gaming experience while being cost -and- space effective.
That looks freaking awesome 🔥🔥🔥
It’s not 450 dude.
This feels like the kind of work my kids do when they're made to do something they don't really want to do, l
ike taking the bins out. Clearly MJR's heart was not in this one.
One other important peice to note are the cores for the portable systems; Gameboy/Gameboy Color, Gameboy Advance, Lynx, Game ear, etc... Other than consolizing an actual handheld unit MiSTER is currently the most accurate and least laggy way to play any of these systems on a monitor and/or television.
Been checking this out. Thanks.
Hands down, this is the absolute best retro investment you can make right now.
🤣
Exactly
I would say no when you're spending $250-350. Much cheaper Raspberry Pi and I want to mention new-old stock Windows 10 ThinkCentre PC. Those have DisplayPort and VGA out and run PS1 at full speed and DOSBox of course. Zero effort to setup, I mean, it's a PC. I don't notice 1 frame of input lag. $15 used ATI card for 15k / 240p, now that takes setup.
@@soccerstar99 you notice no lag means nothing. Most people dont notice the input lag. If you had a MiSTer you would know its superior to emulation and much more efficient running at 7w. I dont want an old PC and its much more complicated than setting up a MiSTer.
@@ninetendopesaitama2107 Thank you, I like MiSTER except the cost and N64 cutoff. I want to see a test suite comparing MiSTer to software emulation. SNES core ported byuu/Near's C++ code so I doubt more accurate. PC easy with OS pre-installed but is a power hog.
Channeling my inner Joe Redifer....TATE MODE!!!!
Joe is the Man. 😎
That was what instantly sprung to mind for me too when he said Ta-Tay. Joe is gonna come knocking.
came here for this comment. tah-tay! 😆
You don't necessarily need the IO board, especially if you are playing on HDTV. You can use a cheap HDMI to VGA adapter if using a CRT computer monitor (no need for a scan doubler like retrotink or framemeister etc). Only need IO board for RGB out to low def CRT TV, or for component video into low def or High Def CRT. And you can just use a powered usb hub instead of the USB board
I've had my first one setup in a MiSTer Addons PCB case for a couple of years. When the aluminum cases came out I bought a fully assemble unit with aluminum case, and extra aluminum case and the newer boards to update my older setup. I've loved the project since I first got one and it get better by the week. It's VERY close to playing on original hardware. I would be lying if I said I don't wish it had save and cheat features like the highest end EverDrive carts. The MiSTer is expensive as a full setup with 128MB RAM but they are worth every penny.
I REALLY like the "update all" script. I find a new Arcade game almost ever time I run the script and let it update.
Glad to see you jump in. The model you have in the video is as good as it gets thus far. Maybe, just maybe there will be machined aluminum cases for the MiSTer. If they are ever available fully machined and anodized I'll buy a couple for sure.
I'm shocked MJR didn't have one of these years ago.
MiSTER is worth it if you want:
Bit perfect reproduction
Are worried about input lag caused by hardware such as your PC/USB
Want to output to a PVM or CRT via an analog signal that matches original hardware
Don't already own retro hardware with all the games you want to play
For most people, a Pi is more than enough. This is for enthusiasts who want to get as close to original hardware as possible without having to invest in original hardware.
Even if you paid $400 (you can buy just the parts you need and I got away with $300) you would be saving money IF you have to invest in retro hardware and want to play them on a modern TV.
Just estimating:
NES - $50. If you want RGB output for OSSC, add $200 unless you can solder it yourself
SNES - $100
Genesis - $70
SegaCD - $130
OSSC - $150
Base for those 4 systems is about $500.
Oh, and THEN you get to buy games for these retro systems where the prices have gone absolutely stupid.
So yeah, if you don't have any retro hardware and want all the capabilities I listed at the top, then the MiSTER is worth it.
If all you want is the least expensive emulation option with HDMI output, go with the Pi for a lot less money.
I own all that stuff (and too much more), and it's still worth it.
@@ionmyke so do I lol.
I like taking MiSTER with on vacations and such and also move it around the house.
Not easy or fun to move the OSSC and whatever systems I want to play.
I don't have a CRT or PVM. If I tried that, I'd probably be divorced.
That's assuming those purchased consoles are in good working order. Most old consoles are in need of restoration work.
Bro, you know on PS1, the greatest hits games, cause you know, sold millions upon millions, so made green labels which they sold millions more. There are Greatest Hits PS1 games on ebay for HUNDREDS of dollars, its crazy stupid that anything with a big name and old means expensive, screw retro gaming scene. Like, Tetris sold like 35 million copies on Gameboy yet retro store wanted $100 for just the game.....
Seriously, them first 2 generations of pokemon sold tens of millions, hell all pokemon did, they outsold average sports game of that era that rot on shelf, yet so many want a ton of money. I'm convinced people spent last 5 years hoarding copies, they think oh popular, must mean expensive, and so see it in wild and everyone grabs even if don't need.
But for real, there are 50+ ebay sales for games like Silent Hill 1, Pokemon Gold and Resident Evil 3, these games are not rare, at all, yet sell like they are.
It’s my main work house for systems-This is great for someone returning to Retro Gaming, you have access to most games and systems and makes it easy to play most.
I have a MiSTer hooked up to the TV in my living room and--next to a Switch--it's the only piece of gaming hardware I have up there. All of the various mini consoles can stay in their boxes, it does them all. So I'm glad that it does all of the 8 and 16-bit consoles so very well.
PS1 support is coming, the core already plays some homebrew games.
I assembled mine piece by piece. First got the DE10 with just the RAM &Clock module and the I/O board, later I bought an USB-expander (because I put all of my games on a HDD) and a nice case.
Use it to play old consoles, specifically Genesis, SMS, Sega CD, Turbografx, etc. Love it. Maybe it is the extremely low lag, or the look on screen, but I can always advance much further in the game through MiSTer than I ever could through emulation, pi, or even the collections on modern consoles. Hands down best system I have ever owned.
Yep. i think the low lag is burned into the Brain.
I can advance much further in Contra 3 on real Hardware or the Mister than on Emulation
Note: Sega MegaCD core has 2x 68000 chips plus others. The real hardware is bulky and mk1 prone to breakdown, so this is the boon of FPGA. I've got a MegaSD and all the SegaCD games on my SD card... I use the JVC WonderMega bios for a different jingle. BTW, mega everdrive Pro has MegaCD on its FPGA now. When you add up all the prices of the other FPGA solutions out there, MiSTer is a compelling all in one solution. To the person saying don't buy the Analogue consoles.... I don't agree, they are really cool, Kevtris cores are exceptional. Great if you have original games. $190 a piece for SNES & SMD support. I hope they make a Neo Geo again.... however MiSTer is the best value solution for this . If all the above is too costly then software emulation is the way to go. People are spoiled for choice these days, really.
@@flogjam Sega CD looks so good on MiSTer. As for Analogue, I do love my MegaSG but find I play MiSTer much more, but only out of convenience. I will, if they open up to regular people again, purchase an Analogue Pocket. Getting FPGA in handheld will be spectacular.
@@billford171 Analogue is the luxury version of FPGA, with a rockstar programmer/engineer on the payroll. MiSter is for the people. You are paying for that. I will be getting a MiSTer at some point. I have Miss-FPGA (MIST) which is close enough . Cyclone 3 vs 5 though.
@@flogjam I don't get why people say the Mega / Sega CD Model 2 is "more reliable", yes it has a flap up lid for the disc drive but it has otherwise poorer build quality and likes to blow fuses.
I have the MiSt, which is great for the computers and consoles I'm interested in. It's half the price and is plug and play. I love it.
Good stuff. Thanks for the video.
Great Video, thanks. All pros and cons I need to know. Have a nice day.
Thanks for watching!
I think you undersold the console element here. Perfect replication of consoles is just as valuable as the arcade stuff. To be honest arcade stuff is still better served by MAME given the vast support it has over Mister right now. But for console there is nothing that competes with Mister.
I agree. I don't think he gave the attention deserved
I had a 486 dx2 back in the day and those games ran just as you show'em here. For better framerates I needed to disable sound or lower graphic options. If MiSTER has a 486 core and not DosBOX, it's probably doing its job just fine and not a performance or emulation problem.
My childhood was all 16 and 32 bit consoles, and have been playing on emulators recently.I went back to actual hardware and was blown away. Even the fastest software emulators can’t replicate the original experience. To have something like this exist and emulate all of those machines at that price point is worth it imo
I agree, certain games really shine on the original hardware clock. Emulators are fun, but I can tell the difference.
Great video my dude
I own a mister and really love it. I mainly use it for console cores as the latency and accuracy is unmatched in my opinion even the Nintendo online service has too much input lag to properly enjoy the games, therefore it provides me with everything I could wish for
I’ve had one for a year and a half. I use it with a Sony Trinitron CRT Tv and 2 wired 8bitdo controllers. It’s like having 20 Analogue consoles in one, only Mister gets updates on a weekly basis. There’s no reason not to own one if you’re into retro gaming.
Makes sense for some, who just want to play the games. I prefer jailbroken Analogue consoles, authentic controllers, and original carts. They are pricey but it's worth it to me, I value the plug and play nature of Analogue products and their sleek designs.
@@joshbarnes9267 Then get a blisster board and play with original controllers. Still no carts though.
Unless you already own all the classic consoles
Blister cores are forked and a bit of a pain to keep updated. I would just deal with the whopping 1ms USB lag through whatever USB converter, it isn’t noticible outside of light guns and you can use SNAC for those.
@@FoxbatStargazer why a pain to update? The update script does it automatically.
Looks like a sick guitar pedal! 🤟🏽😎
man your crt looks pristine and great geometry. im jealous
It still works really well...especially when warmed up for a few minutes. I love it.
same man theres nothing quite like retro gaming on a crt
I keep saying that I'll buy when Mortal Kombat 2 gets a core. But all the old PC cores make it worth it as well
@MetalJesusRocks would this be the right choice for the heart of a custom Arcade Cabinet nowadays? Or should I stick with a raspberry pi setup?
No. Get a MiSTer for your arcade.
Mister is much better than emulation on a pi
if you are a big fan of fighting games no body beats mister it offers no lag game play no OS to fuck up the game play but you still need a pie to play the other stuff it cant play. asking MetalJesusRocks about this is pointless the guy has no clue what the hell he is talking about
Look at the arcade selection first (also keep in mind that the NeoGeo is listed as a “console”) and decide if it has enough arcade games for you. It does less games than mame but the games it does do will be (usually) more accurate and have 0 lag.
Pi is just standard emulation, so software based emulation.. FPGA is hardware emulation, quicker so unlikely to get software lag and input lag. FPGA is the nearest thing to real hardware when it comes to any sort of emulation.
Really just the BOARD ITSELF will get you started and can play lots of systems. Still only have the RAM Upgrade for mine.Had it prob a year now.Gotta get back into it,been on other things for a good while now.
Thanks for finally doing an in depth review!
If you're a student, Terasic has a 15% discount on the DE-10 Nano. It's a great board and useful on it's own.
I got the MiSTer mainly for consoles, specifically for SNES. I still have muscle memory from growing up playing tons of Super Nintendo and with the inherent lag in software emulation, my muscle memory gets tripped up a lot. As much as I like the SNES Classic or Retroarch, I wasn't having that much fun, I thought I was getting bad at the games. Then I got the MiSTer mainly for the low latency and it's a game changer. Muscle memory kicked in and I went through Super Mario World, Donkey Kong Country 1-3 without missing a beat. It felt exactly as I remembered from back in the day. Can't wait for the PS1 and Saturn cores btw.
Is it really that big a difference? I’ve never noticed, but I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, that’s why I’m asking. I’ve had tons of fun with emus.
@@DisgruntledPigumon for me it was noticable. I guess I'm more sensitive to input latency, at least for the games I played a lot growing up. For example, when I got the SNES classic, I was excited to replay Donkey Kong Country. There was one level on the ice world that kept giving me troubles (might've been the first one, there was a part with small platforms and tons of flying birds coming at you during a raging blizzard. There's also the barrel section). I kept dying over and over, it was very frustrating. I thought I was bad at the game or getting old (I'm only 36 though lol!). Never got past that level and didn't replay it until a few years later on the MiSTer. I breezed through the game without missing a beat, that hard level, first try. I promptly 100% the DKC trilogy back to back and it was great! It just FELT right. It's hard to explain. So for me, I can notice the difference. :)
@@DisgruntledPigumon it's hard to consciously tell, but muscle memory knows. The same happened to me.
@@DisgruntledPigumon I recently played through Mega Man 2 on the Legacy Collection and played through it on the MiSTer immediately afterward. Huge difference. There are maneuvers I can pull off flawlessly on an FPGA that I don't dare try on subpar emulation.
Now - modern emulators have a lot of options for reducing input lag. I honestly can't tell the difference between my MiSTer and bsnes with the lag reduction option set to 1. But if I'm playing one of the retail collections, they're playable, but it feels sluggish and I have to play a lot more conservatively than I want to, which isn't nearly as fun. I beat all the Mega Man X games without upgrades back when I had a CRT. If X's jump feels even a little sluggish it throws me off.
I think someone unfamiliar with these games would be just fine with most emulators because I think what I've been able to do with these games would be possible for someone who trained their muscle memory according to the emulator's timing vs. the original hardware, but I know these games well enough that most emulators will never feel right.
@@DisgruntledPigumon On some games it's a lot more noticeable than with others. If you just want an example of how lag can make a hard level become nearly impossible to tackle, check 1991 Battletoads Clinger-Winger. Any mistakes, either yours or lag-induced, are cumulative on this level.
But it's also worth pointing out that just using a MiSTer doesn't mean you get no lag, it only gives you no lag when using a CRT either with an Analog Board or with a decent external video DAC. Playing through HDMI on default settings likely adds 1 or 2 frames worth of lag but you can change settings to fix that... won't work with some very cheap/crappy TVs, but should work with most/all decent TVs and any computer monitor that's not complete garbage.
Video lag is not the only kind of lag... controller lag is also something you should be mindful of on games where any lag can trip you up. Using a bluetooth controller is probably the single worst thing you can do in this regard. If you're using wireless, at least get a 2.4GHz dongle instead of bluetooth. I would recommend you either get a low-lag wired USB controller or use a SNAC adapter to play with original controllers on more "hardcore" games.
The NES had a bunch of games where the lag of an emulator on an underpowered machine or even on the MiSTer, using a crappy HDMI TV and a Bluetooth controller, can make your gaming session absolutely miserable. Punch Out, Battletoads, Tetris, SMB2J, Mega Man... It doesn't mean you can't play those games on a RetroPie or something like that, just that you won't be able to perform as well, you'll have to "play it safe" and it's going to be a lot harder than the game was on real hardware.
For controllers, search for "rpubs misteraddons inputlatency", for video DACs, search "kuro mister fpga dac"... There are many settings you can play with to improve latency on the MiSTer, the two main ones are vsync_adjust if you want to play over HDMI and fast polling if you're using USB instead of SNAC.
Hi Metal Jesus. For the C64 issue you were running into, its likely because you were using DolphinDos loader instead of the traditional one. That one is much more convenient for a number of reasons (quick loading by pressing shift-esc, etc), but can have edge case compatibility issues with some games. You can change the loader in the OSD to the normal one, and that is usually a good troubleshooting step for the system when you encounter issues in games, along with the joystick port stuff which you mentioned.
i was waiting for this one jesus!
16:35 "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."
Love the channel, but dude you pretty showed the worst mister has to offer. The 486 core is still relatively new and most people I’ve seen use it for console emulation which is amazing. And they are already developing ps1 and Saturn. You can see early tests online now.
Who you think you are? Renaker?
I guess the RMC crowd has already been here and suggested the MiSTer Multisystem, a consolised addon board/case for the FPGA Dev board, it looks so cool!
I love my mister and have had it for about a year and a half. The console cores are spectacular. They have a very easy to use cheat system that is very convenient. Don’t overlook that feature. Nes and other cores have save states. Snes runs at a higher resolution too. Well worth the money and better than the competition in my opinion.
It’s worth it , and I bought it when it was for $350
When it comes to the consoles, you're right that there is nothing special about playing the regular suspects over HDMI. The real value is in the rgb/component analog output for each console, which is VERY expensive otherwise.
that's not really true. vsync_adjust=2 is only 4 lines of latency if the display supports it. No other emulation method is getting nearly that close.
The "tall and skinny monitor" that was in arcade cabinets were just sideways CRTs, that's why it default displays sideways if your TV isn't on its side. There was actually an option to play Gunbird 2 I think it was on Sega Dreamcast back in the day that way, I used to do it to have a bigger image.
👍 exactly, anyone with any knowledge of history in videogames knows the Yoko/Tate is the orientation of the CRT and its relative rotation of image displayed.
Japan videogaming phrasing :Tate height (90deg) and Yoko Width (standard position).
Sega Saturn shooters are another prime example of the display in Tate mode. Some of the most early arcade games inc. Scramble use that Tate type display.
However, you can get CRT outputs from Pi - with add on av out options - for emulation of retro on a CRT in RGB its not purely a mister only thing...
Going to need to do a follow-up video in 6 months. I got a feeling that by then it will turn out to be WORTH IT.
Jesus, the core is called 486 for a reason! You’re expecting to run games that were meant to run on a stronger pentium haha
Love the few screenshots of Phantasmagoria. It was great and disturbing for it's time :)
Its time.
@@DisgruntledPigumon well you're quite pathetic lol
Thanks for the great review!
I want one of these, but I'm waiting a little longer in case they decide to upgrade the main hardware. I've already experienced this with buying the SD2SNES and the OSSC early on. I love the OSSC, but they're adding enough new things to OSSC Pro that I'm going to have to get it.
The DE10 nano will be the core of the mister project for years to come. Until Intel or someone else builds something more powerful in the same price range. But you are safe for the next 5+ years at the very least. Good thing about the DE10 and mister in general is how open and expansive it is. You can really build it anyway you wish, heck there are people designing new daughter boards to put the de10 directly in a ITX case. Imo, there is no bad time to jump in.
@@trexslapfight That's actually really awesome to hear! Thanks for the input on this. I'll probably jump in sooner than later then. I was just worried because 2 of the major FPGAs I've bought got outdated rather quickly.
Not gonna happen anytime soon that they upgrade anything.
When I saw stunts being played it really brought back some memories lol.
Noooo, don't show Comix Zone, I'm having 'Nam like flashbacks. Great video my dude.
Screamer is a game that actually is a game that is in the beginning of the p4 era needing a 1.0GHz P4 to run at acceptable framerates in software mode... so a 486 @~90MHz won't cut it :P
Ever since returning in January, this has been the most common question I've gotten: "Zophar: What do you think of the MiSTer?" Well, I'm gonna find out as I just bought one today. Thanks for the review MetalJesus - very helpful!! :)
Never seen one of these in a case before. All so the case is very nice looking.
Well done video. I've had my MiSTer since 2019 and have no regrets. Its definitely worth the money.
Thanks! This was a fun video to make 👍
Best investment you can make if you have anything to do with retro!!!!!!!!
I just took the plunge on an expensive PC for my bedroom and Launchbox coupled with RetroArch is playing anything I throw at it but the Mister could be a great idea for playing in other rooms in the future, taking to a friend's place, or playing more inconvenient platforms more easily.
RetroArch's Atari 5200 / 8-bit computer emulator core is kind of a pain to set up but I did figure out how it works only to learn that my 5200 bios works with it, but none of my 8 bit computer bioses from an old MESS set will work with it so I'll have to look around. I wish I could get it to boot directly to my selected game like the other consoles.
Does the Mister still require you to find bios files for many of the systems like some of these emulators do?
Those mini Nintendo consoles were definitely fun for a while but after looking into Mister their limitations make them seem more like secondary options now. Especially because their save file formats are different so it is not as easy to port your progress to another device. The main thing I liked about the minis was the presentation of the menus, the way the save states worked, and the way they showed screenshots of the save states.
It just goes to show there is always something better around the corner and over the years some of us will buy into each thing. PC emulation, console modding emulation (as far back as making ItMightBeNES discs for PS1), NOAC clone consoles like FC Twin, multicarts and flash cartridges like Everdrives, Android emulation on devices like Ouya, phones and Raspberry Pi, emulation clone consoles like Retron 5, classic mini consoles, and Mister. Pretty much all of these are still being worked on and improved today except maybe the NOAC systems which are outdated but still around. That's basically what the fake NES minis like the Coolbaby are.
Have you seen rmc's videos on his mistr project, cool looking console with interchangeable parts for all kinds of things including old controller support.
Not enough hype. Best investment in retro tech i ve ever made. Worth every cent. :)
The title is misleading. You can start with the de10 nano + 128 sdram + heatsink +usb hub =240€.
You dont need the i/o board if you are just using hdmi TVs /monitors.
This is 100% correct.
Yeah people need to spread this around more
Too bad Screamer didn't work properly it was one of the best racers I played back then, I had Nascar as well I remember it was a 4 floppy disks. Nice device and great video thank you.
Yeah, Screamer is a total hidden gem these days...
@@MetalJesusRocks That needs about a 1GHz Pentium4 to run a acceptable framerates in software mode, so it looks about right getting maybe a frame per second on a 486SX 90MHz...
Awesome!
While you can get easy emulators for old consoles, arcades etc. there's a real "feel" difference with MiSTer, especially on a CRT. I got a MiSTer for the Amiga core, but ended up really enjoying some of the consoles I'd missed first time around like the TG16 and NeoGeo. You can also get into it quite affordably with just the DE10 Nano board (runs TG16 just fine) and then add the memory (opens up use of all the cores) and then analogue board into your CRT.
Install and update is really easy with the scripts, and as it can sit on your network, copying files to it is easy and you don't need to take the SD card out of the machine. Lots of case and boards options too. It really is the best thing for retro gaming I've got.
Somebody needs to make new CRTs, somebody needs to convince Sony this needs to happen.
Costs would be in the thousands because of the scale of the market. Remember they could sell CRT's for $300 because there were hundreds of millions of worldwide customers. Making a new fabrication plant would be expensive, so each customer would have to share that cost.
I would love to have seen where CRT tech might have headed, if the market hadn't ended. I think we may have seen very slim CRTs, with modern inputs, as well as classic inputs.
A much smaller footprint, lighter in weight, and dead-flat screens. Included Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, Ethernet, etc...
@@mrkirk4944 Hitachi was working on something called SED. It was basically an array of micro electron guns, each pixel triad had it's own. Unfortunately it lost out to LCD.