An Absolutely CRAZY Reaction! Air France flight 7512
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On the 20th of December 2019 an Airbus A318 from Air France, Flight 7512, suffered a very serious upset event during approach into Toulon in Southern France. The upset was caused by a little known feature of the ILS system known as a false glide-slope and in this video I will tell you all about what happened and what we can learn from it.
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Below you will find the links to videos and sources used in this episode. Enjoy checking them out!
ATC Controller: @ go2hr.ca
www.go2hr.ca/wp-content/uploa...
A318: @ Curimedia
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
A350: @ itsabouttravelling.com
airplanes.itsabouttravelling.c...
Localizer Antenna: @ havkar.com
havkar.com/uploadFiles/content...
BEA Report: @ BEA
bea.aero/fileadmin/user_uploa...
www.bea.aero/en/investigation...
Aircraft used in simulations: Airbus A319 by Toliss
store.x-plane.org/Airbus-A319...
NDVXOA1X8T2WDOQG
Thanks to Ricardo dos Santos Nortman for his help with the simulations.
Chapters:
--------------------------------------------------------------
00:00 - Intro
00:26 - Air France 7512
00:44 - Toulon, France
02:24 - Top Of Descent
03:23 - Instrument Landing System
05:12 - The Flight Crew
05:56 - Descent Profile
06:55 - Reaching Palme
08:51 - Holding Pattern
10:29 - Localizer / Glide Slope
13:20 - Inverted Radio Signals
14:49 - The Airbus Reacts
17:18 - 96 Knots!
20:00 - Learning Outcomes
22:01 - Just Culture
24:07 - The Airbus 318 - Zábava
“And that’s going to become really important” is something I hear a lot in these … and it’s riveting every time.
Good! It’s normally very important 😂
Yep and I call that a "clue". 👍
It's like one of those violin stings when you watch USA Gordon Ramsay. Just gets me to (•_•;)
Mentour: "and that's going to become really important"
Me: * grabs popcorn *
(@mentour pilot, absolutely fantastic storytelling)
I feel like everything is important in aviation anyway.
Thank you for emphasizing the importance of "just culture". There are so many companies that can learn from this example how to deal with mistakes.
absolutely right. It is only natural as an employee to want to hide your mistakes, just as it is natural for a supervisor to want to punish them, but such behavior always nurtures an adversarial relationship. Sharing the experiences of "close call" events can be extremely embarrassing but it is true to say, "if it happened to me it can happen to you". Whenever you find yourself thinking, "this could have turned out much worse" it's time to share the experience...you could be saving people's lives.
The other thing, that represents an opportunity that "general aviation" may not have!
Yep, however the learning culture in many countries (at school) is to actually be embarrassed by making mistakes (getting the low grades etc). This, I think, learns people to avoid those situations... by not mentioning them. Almost every company and politicians, people in some kind of power, do this to a great extent. Doesn't help, it always goes wrong at some point, but people don't change apparently. Which is why we get the comments on those pilots under his video's etc. etc.
@@jeffdutton1910 Yes, exactly!
@@VincentGroenewold Agreed, denial culture is so very destructive. Many big companies employ people specifically to tidy up the mess caused by their senior executives. Humility, the willingness to admit to infallibility, is massively under-valued.
I spent 40 years in aircraft maintenance and even from the get go when I was an apprentice I was taught if you've made a mistake, put your hand up and tell someone. This probably wasn't called Just Culture in those days but it goes to show that this is the basis of safety in aviation.
@@TheRedRaven_ Shut up redditor
@@TheRedRaven_ dude it's a safety culture the industry trying to build. They put that into your head from the very beginning.
@@TheRedRaven_ Why are you so thick ? The point is that apprentices raise their hand whenever they think they might have made a mistake. This concept then becomes so unconscious that the entire industry follows the principle, and it saves lifes.
@@TheRedRaven_ I guess it's the people like you in any workforce that makes other workers want to hide their mistakes. But then again, I don't imagine you actually work in critical jobs like that. You wouldn't be spouting such a useless rant otherwise.
lmao, now i'm actually curious what this red raven guy said. might have been somewhat amusing. sad that his comment got deleted.
I am a nervous flyer and normally avoid air incident videos. However, I enjoy yours because they are not sensationalized accounts but are used to understand why things happened and what lessons were learned. I actually feel somewhat better knowing how much effort is made to fly safely.
I agree, every one of his videos only give me more confidence in the industry and the pulots themselves. He has covered numerous miraculous feats made by the pilots. I've come to admire them deeply and have thought once or twice I wish I could do what they do
Much agreed 👍 I find Petter's diagnostic approach really helps me understand these unfortunate events.
He treats each one with a measure of respect but also I feel he keeps his distance so we can stay objective. Really helps.
Thank you for your service
Agree, I triggered a fear of flying around late teenage hood after a very shaky flight whereas younger I had no issues at all with flying.
Then started to watch all the Mayday shows and it worsted that fear but with this channel and also dot green aviation channel, it actually seems to slightly overcome the fear. Good job to them !
@@XxXSpazz284XxXthe only ones I find terrifying are those about irresponsible pilots or captains
The "Just Culture" concept reminds me of an anecdote I read where a guy made a mistake at his job that caused something like $30k in damage to a piece of equipment.
He got called to his boss's office after the investigation and repair.
When he walked in he said, "I guess I'm fired, aren't I?"
The boss replied, "Why would I fire you? I just paid 30 grand for you to learn the lesson to never do that again!"
The point is that mistakes happen, and the only way to prevent them from recurring is to acknowledge them and look at the cause.
probably had insurance..
Similarly, I've been told that an empoyee that makes a mistake actual gain worth for the company, because they gained experience from their mistake.
We had a similar story happen at my company (before my time, so it's second hand information). Totally avoidable loss of (even more expensive) hardware.
The guy was not fired. Until he repeated the same thing again.
I was a dispatcher for GM in 2009 and a printer never shot out paperwork and I got distracted. 20 minutes later the plant called screaming about the trailer and I didn't know what happened. I immediately called my boss in his office over the phone and said, "I f*cked up." I fixed the issue and sent the load but the plant was down for 8 minutes. It cost $44,000 and GM wanted me fired. My boss told them they were crazy because I was the best dispatched they've ever had and I made an honest mistake that I owned up to. Got to keep my job.
I'm actually impressed how much more effort you're putting in, and how well-created your videos have become, through those years. Thanks so much, I'm learning a lot!
Thank YOU for being here, watching and supporting!
These programmes are much better than the NatGeo Aircrash programmes, as Mentour comes with a practising pilot's view, as opposed to a journalist/film-maker (who wants feelings and drama), gives a factual and intelligent explanation, with some superb graphics. The quality is reflective of the time and effort put in. Best programmes on CZcams, IMHO.
I love this sort of video, but it's still OK to have a less resource and work intensive ones.
Yes I'm also impressed by his attention to details ☺️
@@MentourPilot how does one go about getting pilots license? I’m 40 and would like to start the process ASAP. What to do/research first.
I was an avionics engineer in UK during the early 1970 and we called this the "Aviation Safety Culture" and I have both witnessed and been part of this process. This video gives me goosebumps remembering how it works exactly as you describe. I would like to describe one incident to help anyone to really get a feel for it in action.
A Helicopter was about to take off and could not contact tower, I was sent in to fix problem, when I got there I found that the VHF1 was selected to the tower frequency and was switched on but was connected to intercom 2 which was OFF. So I switched I/C2 on and suddenly everything burst into life. The pilot realized his mistake became frustrated and tried to grab my headsets off me but I had to do a 2 way comms check with the tower (the engines were on an the passengers were right behind the captain) I clung on to the headset and did a 2 way 5 by 5 check all ok then I explained the problem to the Captain who then took off and fortunately had an uneventful flight.
Later my boss told me I had to apologize to the captain the next morning which gave me the night to ponder WHY?. Eventually I realized and when the Captain showed up next morning I gave him a heartfelt apology and described exactly how I SHOULD HAVE handled the situation, to my amazement the Captain then also apologized to me for his part.
Conclusion 1. I aggravated an already embarrassed pilot in front of his passengers and caused him to take off in a frustrated state.
Conclusion 2. Unlike a large plane if anything goes wrong with a helicopter especially during take off he has to react fast with muscle memory which I had compromised.
Conclusion 3. After we talked everyone was happy and I learned a lesson I will never forget. And I had a very high respect for that Captain from then on.
Conclusion 4. Always be honest no matter where the fault(s) lies and instead of being defensive seek a solution that fixes the problem FOREVER. that is what the "Aviation Safety Culture" is all about.
Hope you like.
I don't think as a engineer you did anything wrong it's your job to tell the crew of issues you find so, had he gone hissy fitting to vosed cos passengers heard well as a captain he should have taken notice of what you had said it wasn't appropriate behaviour of him to try and grab your headset but I know how you feel your scared of losing your job your field of work should be like NHS and have an anonymous line you can ring to report in your concerns
@bunglejoy3645 you haven't understood the first thing he said....
bro if the pilot can't compartmentalize his emotions he should not be flying.
Lost my medical about 10 years ago. I was a check airman and flight instructor. I miss flying terribly. These videos remind me of why I loved flying for an airline.
Sorry for your loss
Thank you. It was one of many setbacks in my “personal plan of life”. I’m very grateful now however. Humans learn from adversity in ways they cannot possibly do through observation or study. I’m a better person for the difficulties.
Who knows, there are doctors and scientist all over the world studying my medical condition. I think they are getting close to a minimal invasive treatment. If so, so should be able to fly again. I’m too old to go back to the airlines but I could buy 4-6 pax aircraft and use it to travel for pleasure. That would be fun :). I’m hopeful.
I shall be praying for you @brett👍🙌🙌
Really nice production, better than most aircraft investigation episodes!
Fantastic video!
Glad to hear you liked it!! 💕
Fantasticooo!!
TheFlightChannel does superb investigation too.
Most???
@@alexskerten7059 he must mean all...
I'm a retired airline pilot and this is a first class video that should be watched by all/most airline pilots.The scenario of high tailwind on approach occurs often and maintaining situational awareness with the 3 times rule (adjusted as shown for aircraft type and wind) always gives one the big picture. Adjustments can then be made in an unrushed timely manner. Later in my career, as automation became more commonplace I noticed many new airline pilots never bothered to build any profile in their head. Some had never even heard of the three times rule. Runway 34 at Sydney is a classic example with a strong tailwind and approach from the west.
Thank you for your service
Therein lies the problem, automation is great but it builds in complacency which must be guarded against. Always train with the "what if" mentality!
@@michaelmatthews6258 yeah I get the impression they don’t do that at all anymore that it is learn how to actually fly a plane before learning how to use the computers. You know like as a back up. I understand small private planes are different than small, private passenger jets as our jumbo jets but I constantly understand from these videos on a few channels that they’re often times when more experienced pilots have better outcomes because they have some idea of the physics and engineering involved.
@@rachmunshine9474the fortunate pilots were those proficient at flying commercial aircraft before the advent of many of these computer systems, but were still new enough to re-learn this new computerized flying.
Your ability to interpret, then effectively communicate to the layman complicated aviation procedure is outstanding. In a second language, no less! So impressive! 👍
This was a serious incedent. If things had been just the slightest bit different, the aircraft and everyone on board would have been lost. I would hope that reporting the incident and analysing the contributing factors helped to avoid similar incidents and saved lives. I, for one, am glad that pilots can report things like this without fear of repercussions .
Amen, the airline system really is a model more should try to follow. Harsh reality is humans make mistake,s no one ever does everything perfect all the time. Good safety culture takes account of that and makes allowances for it. If your safety plan relies on humans acting perfectly all the time, it's not safe and it is going to fail. The existence of the alpha system in this case was the major contributor in making this incident not a disaster.
@@darthkarl99 omlmmmmmmmm
No. The aircraft's safety system took over.
@@Twobarpsi "safety systems" when the Airbus autopilot pitched up 30°. Not to excuse sloppy flying but the other errors are kinda meh and the whole design philosophy of the bus is to keep the envelope in spite of them. How's this sequence when I was new to the A320... 3100' leveling off at 3000', 25° bank capturing the localizer, 1/2 dot below glideslope, slowing to approach speed per ATC and extending flaps on schedule, flaps in transit 2 to 3, autopilot on. It captures the glide (maybe a signal fluctuation) and aggressively pitches up to fix the half-dot error. Realizes it's commanded an accelerated stall and does the A. Floor business. So that was a dynamic situation (slowing, configuring, leveling off, intercepting) but the thing that caused the event was George's totally out of the ordinary ridiculously aggressive pitch input. When you learn the bus they teach it like the sophisticated computers build this box you can't fly outsidef. It's a safety envelope you can't escape. But then in actual fact they throw half of that out the window with some ridiculous over controlling to bracket the glideslope. So I still love the Airbus however I recognize that overloading the thing with a dynamic situation while its programmed to chase the glideslope like an air-air missile won't result in a graceful approach. It's actually not a sophisticated autopilot at all. It's a simple thing that does dumb stuff. Most distressing is that everything was within normal parameters until the autopilot pulled hard on pitch. Kinda like here, except they had the abnormal situation of the inverted 9° glideslope too. Still... dumb dumb Airbus glideslope logic.
@@p39483 Yeah, so I guess it's less-than-perfect Airbus A.I. could it be said? Yes? If so that shows that AI can not always be better than human control. My opinion only, & I'm no expert. But tell me if I'm wrong :- Isn't AI just real clever computer programming, when you boil it down? Is that right?
"smart people learn from their mistakes. wise people learn from other people's mistakes"
Correct!
... that's why we're all here!!
👍
I think the original quote of that is Otto von Bismarck
@@psychotropicalresearch5653 well the Germans were slow learners when it comes to wars but learned quickly about penalty shoot outs! !!
@@psychotropicalresearch5653 There are various versions. Bismark said Only a fool learns from his own mistakes. The wise man learns from the mistakes of others
Dear Mentour Pilot, thank you for this video. Your main message of having a culture where every incident is reported, regardless of which circumstances/actions lead to it is crucially important. I've worked in the nuclear industry, and there the culture is strong, I'm proud to say.
Yes! The aviation and nuclear industry are very similar in many ways when it comes to safety work.
@@MentourPilot There are critical differences though. The nuc industry places an overwhelming bias on personal safety (ALARA, As Low As Reasonably Achievable radiation dosing).
For airliners it's the pilots plus the whole cabin crew plus the passengers who are in mortal danger if the worst came to pass.
I take my hat off and bow my head to the airline safety culture which has evolved since WW II, an evolutionary process, getting better all the time.
@@mattilindstrom
There is a reporting system where literally anyone can make reports in true total confidence such that it cannot be traced back to them individually … thus if a professional has a concern there is a safe reporting avenue
@@ChiDraconis Being a whistleblower on safety or security has never been an issue in my experience, in my home country of Finland.
It's of course excellent to have a non-traceable way of expressing all our safety concerns: whatever gets the problem sorted out.
What I found almost endearing was the response of TUKES (our competent authority and advising body for anything hazard-related), through the telephone exchange straight to a seasoned nuc professional with calming words and how to proceed.😊
The incident was half of my face and only one of my eyes, and thankfully it was soft x-rays, no humans or animals were harmed in this mishap. It was a pretty potent Fe-55 source, luckily the Auger electrons had been absorbed by the membrane covering it. Reporting it got me praise, the law-mandated medical consultations were a nuisance (but hey, on paid medical leave).
@@MentourPilot and healthcare
Open water rescue and scuba instructor here-- As in aviation, in scuba diving it's critical to understand and accept the 'just culture' concept as well. In recreational diving, commercial or industrial diving, and rescue diving, accidents are to learn from. Reviewing incidents in detail improves diver safety and saves lives. It isn't always easy to convince divers of its importance, though, because some fear losing their certification if a mishap is discovered. That isn't going to happen but it doesn't stop the uninformed from blaming and shaming instead of listening and learning.
I used to be just a private pilot and never lost the love, just the medical. I absolutely love the way you ended this video with a message to the public. You nailed it exactly for pilots, crew and airlines in general when you said that they are always trying to improve. Thank you for all the content, you make it so I can fly in my head.
Watched the full video! Very interesting.... Thanks, guys.
Thank you D! Always nice to hear from you
Agree! Best regards for both of you Gentleman!
Cheers from Canada, Gents!
Mentour, your video quality has sky rocketed to such a modern level. I work in marketing and absolutely love the branding you've created. Well done.
Hello Captain! Love your channel Sir!
@@mirvha714 I totally agree! A great improvement in production quality. (But that particular T-shirt looked a bit tired for filming. Perhaps a new one for each episode? A cost of doing classy business...)
One of the lessons learned is that as the complexity of aircraft go up, the importance of CRM goes up even more. Very glad to learn the flight did make it, but it clearly was close. The learning experience from a close call is even more valuable and certainly more desirable than a crash. Another great one Petter, thank you.
That’s exactly right! Thanks for commenting and supporting!
@@johnfran3218 I think you need to book an appointment with your psychologist ASAP.
@@Robert_N 👍
@@johnfran3218 what is wrong with you?
@@Robert_N I'd love to know what @johnfran said. However, in lieu of that info I looks at his CZcams profile, joined September 2021, ahhh possibly a troll.
I flew the Airbus 320 family for more than 10 years, and have landed in Toulon many times. Your explanations are crystal clear. Great video. 👍
That's fucking awesome that pilots feel safe enough to report their mistakes and that everyone can then learn from them.
Many decades ago around 1977 an Air NZ 707 encountered a similar scenario with false ILR lobes landing at Wellington in a late evening arrival. Instead of coming in high, they found themselves incredibly low and the flight crew reported briefly seeing the lights of residential houses flashing past the cockpit as they passed over a hill suburb of the city under the flight path. An immediate go round saved them, but the immense roar metres above people's houses was obvious to everyone, which led to an investigation.
Both pilots had been absolutely certain they were on the glide slope, when in fact poor installation of the ILR antennae had created a strong false lobe well below the correct one. And while there were ground proximity warnings, the nature of the terrain coming into to Wellington from the north meant that pilots in that era could not rely on them either. A combination of complex hilly terrain, a misleading ILR, and low visibility meant they came very, very close to a complete loss. Literally they had passed through a relatively narrow gap in the hills barely 500m wide, so close the pilot told me he had this brief image of someone's TV in a living room blink past him. It had come as a complete surprise to the crew, and for a few brief seconds there was a small tussle between him applying full power, and the flight engineer reaching forward to pull the throttle levers back a little because he had not seen how low they were and feared flaming out the the engines.
In those days there was no 'just culture' and the pilot concerned was blamed by the airline, with no attempt to understand or learn from the incident. In the end he was demoted, and effectively forced out of flying as a scapegoat.
I know of this story because the person concerned was Air NZ's most senior pilot at the time, and I was an employee of his in a small non-aviation related company he also ran. I got to hear from him the whole story of the incident, and the subsequent investigation first-hand. And then about a year later the immense shock of the Erebus loss shook us all to the core, along with the bitter realisation that the airline senior management had learned nothing. But this time it all came out in a Royal Commission that itself became embroiled in intense political controversy. Frankly those were dark days for Air NZ.
I'm not sure if you have covered the Erebus disaster, but it would be a fascinating to see your take on it.
The recovered footage from aboard the Erebus jet is fascinating.
Thank you for your clear explanation of the ‘Newlands Incident’. As a close friend of the Captain and the one who delivered him to the airport for his flight that night I know what a huge toll that had on his life. The “blame the pilot” culture in those days was devastating and even when it was proved that a faulty signal was to blame
Top airline executives refused to relent. Thankfully many years later and before his death AirNZ apologised for the way he had been treated.
@@barrydenholm7864 Thanks for this. I've not been in touch with Don for many years and I trust relating this story here -from memory only - does not cause any him concern. Incidentally I think I got the plane type wrong - was it a DC10?
@@philipwilkie3239 I just looked up the "Newlands Beacon Incident" and it seems it was a DC-8.
It's an overcast and chilly Autumn morning where I'm at at. Got a hot cup of coffee, nowhere to be, and a new Mentour Pilot video. It's a good day.
That sounds very nice!
Let me know what you thought, after the video.
Can relate!
@@MentourPilot As always it was wonderful! I'm somebody who absolutely loves flying, but I've also always been a bit of a nervous flyer; the feeling of not being in control perhaps is the strongest contributor. People will always parrot "you're more likely to be in an accident on your way to the airport than in the air," but it's something that's hard to understand without proper context. Your videos are the ***perfect*** context. It's easy to look at news stories on the *rare* occasion a serious incident occurs, and see how catastrophic it can be, and to then think, "this can happen any time I get on a plane." But what the news *doesn't* tell you is that whatever caused that incident was likely a freak, statistically improbable, incomprehensibly specific series of events that were borderline impossible for any engineer or instructor to imagine prior to them actually happening. And that after the incident and after the investigation, serious and meaningful change will occur to ensure that it will likely never happen again. The airlines, the pilots, the maintenance and ground crews all want every single flight, every single day, to be as safe as it possibly can be. While I may still be occasionally nervous while flying, I now **actually understand** just how safe commercial aviation is because of these videos. Truly, thank you for everything you do!
I agree! Coffee with Petter is a good morning. Of course today I'm using a French Press.
@@thecoolestkyle You might be surprised just how many things have to go wrong before an aircraft gets into any sort of danger.
I'm not connected to the aviation industry, but I tell you what, your vids are giving me a massive admiration for engineers, pilots and crew who fly us about the world. Knowing just what's involved in building and operating one of these extraordinary machines makes me wonder why anyone ever complains about the price of a ticket...
Delays are the least of our worries. Its usually for safety not pilots goofing off & being late.
Most usually are oblivious to how complicated this industry is
Always makes my day a little bit better when i see an upload from Mentour.
Glad to hear that! Would love to hear your thoughts and questions after the video.
@@MentourPilot lol, you are too thorough for most of us ordinary people to have questions! Thanks for another great video.
The aim of an air crash investigation is not to blame someone, but to find out what went wrong and make flying safer.
This was a great video. I was a MD11 Captain for 18 years so I had the opportunity to experience the magic of the glass flight deck. I at one time was taught the 3xAltitude formula to calculate where to start the descent. Later I learned another version that is easier to use especially for closer distances. The formula 3 X Track Distance in NM. 120NM=FL360, 80NM=FL240, 40NM=12,000’, 20NM=6000’, 16NM=4800’, 5NM=1500’, 3NM=900’, 1NM=300’. Three hundred feet for each mile. Then the necessary vertical speed required to maintain the profile is 5 x GS. 500 kts=2500’ FPM, 300 kts=1500’ FPM, 250 kts=1250’ FPM, 150 kts=750’ FPM. If I was flying that Airbus at 16 track miles at 6500’ with 300 kt GS I would know I would be 1700’ high at zero wind and no slow down calculated. My guess based on conditions I am actually 4700’ too high. Yes, a turn in the hold was appropriate. I made it a practice to check my altitude vs distance each 10 miles and make adjustments early to arrive at the expected speed and altitude.
I wish I was great at maths!! ❤
You are so skilled at explaining issues,…not overly wordy at all, just precise and thorough! Thank you to the sponsors for keeping this platform active and able to make positive and valuable changes to the aviation culture under examination at the moment. Good job!
Very interesting episode. Good to hear the industry does not discourage self-reporting potentially hazardous incidents. As you mentioned this benefits everyone by learning how to avoid them. Thanks for sharing!
BTW, the graphics are very helpful and well done!
Thank you! Glad to hear you got the main message with the video.
This no blame reporting culture exists in aircraft construction too.
@@kw8757 In my experience (more than twenty years in aviation), it exists in almost all parts of the aviation industry. In many cases, it has spread from safety critical areas.
Great to point that out. If you would like to know more about industries that do discourage self-reporting potentially hazardous incidents, I recommend reading up on Chernobyl.
Im a cadet pilot for an airline company and i learn so much from you! Thank you captain.
Thank YOU! Best of luck with your training.
You narrate and explain so well - you're inherently easy and interesting to listen to.
That makes me really happy to hear! Welcome to the channel
Can you imagine how much better we would be at , e.g., driving our automobiles if we all had to go through such detailed examinations of close calls that didn't result in any accidents or traffic citations? =D
Thank you for these types of reports, Petter. I really appreciate these deep dives into otherwise "harmless" incidents that can really teach us how we get better at flying at literally every available opportunity.
Yeah but the system would be overwhelmed in an hour.
Why Bother have"Air Shows at all if such dangerous acts are done our Famous hard trained Rare Pilots get killed? It's not worth it at All. Those grieving Famalies & spectators to See such TRAGEDY..
I know this airport very well. I was in the French navy base between 1995 and 1997. This base was used by 2 squadrons 3S and 59F mainly for surveillance of the Mediterranean Sea and aircraft carrier landing training. On the 05/23 runway, you had those arresting cables with motorized breaking system like in an aircraft carrier. They made the runway even shorter. My job was to operate and maintain those cables.
I never saw any commercial aircraft landed in the 14/32 runway. They always used the 05.
Back in the day, there was a "barn" with sheep in this base. I remember, one time, an Air inter airbus had to do a go around in a bad weather because on those sheep. The captain was not very happy about that. And, after the landing, he had a few "not so friendly words" for us.
The place is beautiful and it was, for me, 2 incredible years and the best aviation experience.
I'm very happy to see it on one of your video.
It is far better to err on the side of caution, reporting things that may be amiss, than to crash into the ground. Having a culture that generally seeks to prevent issues really can only happen if there is no fear associated with reporting. I find these videos a great comfort with regards flight safety: the industry as a whole having moved away from cowboys in the air. Sadly, due to the sheer complexity of the systems that make flight possible, sometimes a possible problem isn't anticipated until something like happens.
I think it also helps that pilots do not have to fear an self-reported honest mistake, but that there is always the possibility that someone else files a report.
If the pilot report is timely and honest, then an ATC report of the same incident does not change much. But when there is a serious ATC report but no pilot report, then that needs a serious investigation. Does not need to be pilot error (e.g. comms system malfunction), but something is going on.
@@sarowie my
Spectacular video. As a retired Air Traffic Controller, (if you flew into JFK we may have talked), I knew of false glideslopes but never saw as comprehensive an explanation as yours. The Just Culture discussion was spot on. I was working when in the US we implemented the NASA ASRS system and many airlines developed their own programs. Took some time to trust and believe in the system but I think we are there now. So much so that I know there is discussion in the medical field here to go that way. Love your stuff, thanks for all the effort you put into it.
Petter, a huge (!) thank you for precisely one of the reasons you're doing this episodes: to keep the aviation industry as save as possible by, as you mentioned, keeping those interested informed about the 'what' and the exact 'why'
You keep raising the bar. These videos are the new benchmark for aviation investigation series of the future. Extremely well produced and interesting incident investigation episode.
A well balanced explanation and video. Even reporting a minor issue, a challenge faced during a certain situation, whatever may occur outside of the 'path', is a major contribution to our safety. That's called responsibility and professionalism. Well done Captain!
Thank you! Glad you found the video interesting and helpful, that was my sim with it. ✈️💕
So true and it has a double benefit. Firstly how to avoid the situation and secondly the safest course of action if you do end up in a similar situation.
It is pilots who cannot be bothered to share their experiences ant think that they know best who end up having accidents or causing serious damage to their aircraft.
"Broken cloud layer of about 1700 feet. There was visibility of about 5000 metres... and the surface wind was 150 degrees at 12 knots..." That right there is the hardest part of being a pilot. Forget the language barriers, WTF is up with feet, metres and knots. Pick one measurement system and standardized the WHOLE WORLD to it. It's amazing that we don't have more Gimli Glider like scenarios with using three different standards when most have agreed that English is the standard language but not officially.
Feet and meters are measurements of distance; true, but knots is a measurement of speed, so why do you even include that with the other two when you can't mix THAT one up with the other two??! 😳
@@SgtMclupus Feet Per Second (FPS) is used by a bit of people, same with Meters Per Second.
Nautical miles (i.e. knots) *is* the global standard for distance/speed for aviation and marine applications. Feet and feet per minute are the almost globally agreed upon standard for aircraft altitude and rate of change in altitude (only China, Mongolia, North Korea, Russia, and Tajikistan use meters for altitude). *Aviation IS standardized by the ICAO.* The usage of meters there was for a *meteorological observation,* the pilots actually have a table available to them to convert that to an estimated RVR (Runway Visual Range) which is a standardized aviation weather metric.
Fantastic... I used to teach my students all about ILS antennae and how the different frequencies work along with false glide slopes.. they thought it was silly knowledge since they did not need it for their check rides... cannot wait for them to watch this! :) So happy this occurrences ended in a safe landing.
Petter, a very interesting explanation of the localizer, glide slope, and the different frequency lobes! Excellent video!
Imagine you as a passenger sitting in the back waiting for the landing and the plane just goes into space shuttle mode.. pretty scary
True, hard to know if they would have recognized the high pitch and low speed though 🧐
The question is, what will an a318 do when it stalls?
- raise the nose and slow down even more? That would be the worst case
- drop one wing and start rolling? Not good but should be recoverable, given enough altitude
- drop the nose and pick up speed? That would be easiest to handle.
@@MentourPilot wouldnt such a high pitch have a weird effect on the pilots tho ? is it not possible to feel the G's on the cockpit ?
@@mrxmry3264 The algorithm which decides what to do will have been designed by fallible humans, who may not have considered all the possible factors. Humans often out-perform gthe systems they design.
@@hb1338 when it comes to stalling, it's not some algorithm that decides what happens, it's the aerodynamics. and aerodynamics can be unpredictable.
Awesome video with a great message at the end about learning from mistakes. I work in the nuclear field and we have the same safety culture (safety first) where we can report mistakes and make the facility a safer place. Thank you for producing these videos!!!!
I AM LONG RETIRED FROM 20 YEARS IN LIGHT AIRPLANES, 6000 HOURS, MOSTLY INSTRUCTING. I LIKE YOUR ATTITUDE AND YOUR TEACHING. THANKS.
Nice video as usual. They had a perfect landing (where the aeroplane could be used again... aviation joke).
Personally, I live literally under the WRO-29 approach path: I see the belly of the aircraft passing overhead. With the help of the internet, I do a bit of plane spotting. I found a site which transmits radio coms from the local tower. A few days ago, we had some strong wind; I was impressed by a set of pilots who asked for a hold, did two laps and said "That is too strong for us [the wind]" and diverted. Another aircraft (MUN-WRO) diverted too back to its original airport. I am impressed by the culture. I gave up my flight training at 80 hours (no licence) in 2009.
I was on a flight from Boston to Burlington, Vermont in the NE United States in the early 80's in the winter. After we boarded, I noticed the captain left the aircraft for a bit. He came back and announced that he had checked the most recent conditions at our destination, and there was snow over ice on the runway and a 30 knot crosswind, so we weren't going. He said to us all on the PA: "I'm a good pilot, but I'm not THAT good, so I'm not taking any chances." Looking back 40-odd years later, I'd say he was a great pilot who made a great decision that maybe saved a lot of lives. It's the continued growth and nurturing of that sort of culture and tradition that makes commercial aviation so safe today.
The quality of your production, from the narration to the graphics and detail is exceptional.
Thank you David. We are working hard on increasing quality all the time. I think you guys deserve that.
II discovered your channel just over a week ago and I am delighted with the quality of your videos. Every video is fascinating. Each analysis, each explanation of the systems is made as easy to understand as didactic.
As a fan of aeronautics and a pilot of computer simulators, I can only thank you for the time and work you dedicate to these videos.
I totally agree with your final words. I should admit that it is quite common in engineering companies that people who are blamed of doing something wrong are the ones who work very hard and do most of the work in the team. As a result they're not being promoted or do not get a good pay rise. It makes people move to less demanding areas where they do not contribute as much as they can but on the paper they look much better.
What you say at the end is like the go around procedure where pilots can do a go around without needing to explain why. Always good to not punish mistakes and instead learn from them.
Exactly correct
Without them telling the reason for the go around i think it will make it easier for them to hide faults, which is not good for the the aviation industry or training.
@@chaimbar1171 its more to not push pilots into attempting a landing that might be dangerous to avoid doing a go around. Alot safer to let pilots do it without fear of repercussions so they land safely
@@ExaltedwithFail that's right, didn't think of it.
Unfortunately there are some airlines which view a go-round as a pilot error i.e you should never need to go round if you have flown the approach correctly, and if you *do* go round you are burning fuel and inconveniencing your passengers unnecessarily. The list of such airlines includes some well-known European companies, some of them national flag carriers.
You unfairly blame the crew’s ‘actions and inactions’. At 00:10 …. It’s obvious from the camera panning around the cockpit that it couldn’t have been the fault of the crew as there were no crew onboard, which is even more concerning. 🎃 👻
Hahaha 😂😂
They'd exceeded their flying hours and so bailed mid-flight...
Lololol love this comment.
@@dominicMcAfee Although not concerning aviation, I still remember the day when 2 incompetent engineers caused a film transmission to crash.
When interviewed, they both blamed each other, saying that they were in the toilet at the time.
Rather than spend days trying to find out the truth, since their was only one toilet in the building, the bossed fired both of them for indecent behaviour.
This all happened more than 45 years ago and it still makes me laugh today.
EXCUSEE MEE! U THOUYGHAN AIRPALEN HAD ENGINES TO FLY, HWY HAS THE GLUDESCOIP EIF IT NOTTA GL;IDES. DONT MAKSE SENSE TO MEE!
Am touched by how much the pilots keep our safety in mind as they report even their own error! I applaud them for this. Am really grateful for it!
Where it occurs, yes it’s very professional but sadly it’s not always done and we hear of multiple occasions of incident information lost because the captain hasn’t declared anything on landing, off goes the aircraft again and the data is overwritten 🤦
@MentourPilot - This is one of your best! So much learning here (especially when ATC suggests something!). Thank for your excellent work, and Keep It Up!
Great video. I have been in a large number of conversations about the Rust shooting incident. One of the things that has been visible in that case is the poor safety culture on set. Instead of assuming safety is one person's responsibility, it needs to be everyone's responsibility. Additionally, near misses investigated and addressed prevent tragedies (and opportunities were missed in that regard in that case).
I maintain that many industries, from IT to filmmaking can learn from the impressive focus on safety culture that we see in aviation. To think that packing people in cannisters of highly pressurized gas, and sending them ten km above sea level at 3/4ths the speed of sound should be so safe that even frequent fliers will likely never see a serious accident in their lifetimes is really incredible. And the rest of us outside aviation have much to learn from that.
This reminds me of part of my IFR training. While I was under the hood hand-flying a Piper Warrior in VMC, my instructor vectored me to intercept a false glide slope on a practice ILS approach at an untowered airport. As I followed the needles in the descent, the CFII asked me if everything was ok. I said I didn't understand why I needed a >1000 fpm descent when it should only be about 500 fpm at 90 knots. He had me discontinue the approach, and gave me a new set of vectors for a normal approach.
At that time, I hadn't yet read enough about the instrument landing system to be familiar with this potential pitfall, but I should have checked the chart for altitude to expect at the FAF. A truly valuable learning experience.
Excellent episode!
i do not understand this. how can you intercept a glide slope, when your descent-rate is higher than 1000fpm in the first place? secondly: if you are under the glide slope, it would never come up, but would already be up.
So what is the point, what was going on? We cannot understand this with the info you gave.
All you said is, your common sense wanted a lower sinkrate. But what was the situation at all?
@@MrTiti I think that he was saying that he had indications saying that he _needed_ a >1000 fpm descent, not that he was actually _making_ a >1000 fpm descent. And my guess is that he was _above_ the glide slope on the mirror lobes above the primary lobes, just as described in this video. See the section "Inverted Radio Signals" at 13:22 for a detailed explanation.
When I was in the RAF we always endeavoured to intercept the GS from below, more often than not we'd try to get to 2500ft at 10nm, after getting established on the localiser. I don't recall ever intercepting from above but I understand there are times when it has to be done that way due to local topography.
That little lesson about the ILS was spot on for what I literally just learned at A&P school.
EXCELLENT video. Your illustrations of the vertical/horizontal planes, the glideslope, and how the ILS signals work are so good that I clearly understood it for the first time. (I have a problem visualizing spatial relationships and I can barely tell left from right.) Very well done, this is top notch!
The excellent graphic presentation along with the professional narration and careful explanation make these videos really worth watching, even for the (non pilot) general public. I watched it twice. Thank you.
Another great video! Thank you for explaining such technical things in an easily understandable manner, and putting emphasis on "just culture". I feel like many other areas could benefit from that. It's been an amazing series and I am definitely looking forward to learning more!
Great video, I appreciate the "Just Culture" in the airline industry. I work in transportation industry myself, and we always encourage our drivers to report incidents, even if no damage is done, we call them "near-misses". There is always something to be learnt from these. As an addition, part of my job is writing some investigation reports into specific incidents that happen at work, and your videos have actually helped me improve on these! And you taught me about confirmation bias in other videos that you did, so I always keep this in the back of my mind when investigating something to try and make sure I can see all the facts properly. So thank you.
Fantastiskt upplägg på dessa. Älskar att man kan välja om man ska titta som video eller välja att bara lyssna som podd!
Keep it up!
I like the way you describe the all aspects of accidents including sociological stuff like whether the crew speaks the same language as the tower. You also describe things in your videos like the organizational structures of the airlines and maintenance issues (like unwise shortcuts). Excellent video.
As a layman i found this episode complicated in regards to all the different factors , but very interesting and enjoyable. Good to hear that the pilots were able to report this incident and make flying safer.
Too complicated for me, as a layman, and also presented at a very high pace of speech - for the first time since I follow the channel I found the video boring and stopped watching. It would help to explain what a glide slope is and how it works, or to point to previous videos explaining that.
Any day that starts with new content from Mentour Pilot is a good day!
That’s a good saying! 💕💕
Love your channel, very great information with broke downs of the accidents for anyone that doesn’t have any Aviation background to understand it. Keep up the great work.
My husband got hooked on your videos and now I am too! I’ve traveled on planes all my life - my dad worked for Pan Am for nearly three decades until it was no more; probably the reason I have such an affinity for air travel.
Your videos are very educational and help fill the gap between my love for air travel and understanding of what is going on around me when I do travel!
I especially enjoyed this video which goes beyond the technical aspects of why we know about the incident today. It’s very reassuring to know the industry my dad loved so much continues to improve upon itself.
Petter, I’m not a pilot, but I really enjoy your videos. You explain complex systems in a way which makes them comprehensible. A lot is still beyond my grasp, but I continue learning something new from every video.
Thanks! Excellent work! 👍
Petter, I can’t emphasize enough on how into your videos I am and how interesting they are to watch. This format of the video is very good, well done for that!
I’ve binge watched the entire series now and it feels harsh that I now have to wait for the next episode…
Keep your great work up! I’m looking forward to your videos every day!
Kramar från Johan i Sverige! ❤️🇸🇪
I just love how you often tells us about pretty unkown accidents/inciedents. They are usually much more interesting, fascinating and useful then those infamous and dramatic crashes which everyone else covers in their videos. It is like the difference between first grade and university studies: the former is utterly important, but the latter brings you to a higher level of understanding. Thanks Petter.
I wish the NHS in UK used the same principles as the air industry when investigating and learning from past mistakes and accidents. The Comet investigation was the cornerstone for aviation but I wish lessons learnt there had been used elsewhere. This is the best and most constructive podcast I’ve come across
which podcast?
I watch all your videos and am amazed that on each one there are always new and different technical doodads and issues being discussed. Flying is so much more complicated than most of us passengers can imagine! Major props to all pilots!! 😎
You're such a great person, every single video you do is adding a lot of valuable information specially for people who don't have a chance or afford to study aviation, even your English language is absolutely fantastic ,accurate and crystal clear and above all that you are a very lovely person, down to earth and it's hard to find unique people like that anymore around
Your videos are so good. I appreciate how things are explained in such a way that someone unfamilar with aviation can understand without making the details overwhelming and dull.
Thanks for continuing to try and get through the point about training, and why it's so important to do these types of investigations. I'm pretty sure the pilots want to get home safely to their families too.
Very well explained Petter, i must admit when you started talking about them being hot & high i went for the "intercept from above" scenario.Little did i think it would have that twist to it.
Excellent video.Class complete.
I work as a technical authority in maintennace engineering, and often use the thorough investigations in the airline industry as examples of where it can all go wrong, and how. The importance of knowing the roles and responsibilities, adherence to procedure, need for competence, considering all relevant failure modes when evaluating activities, and so many more. Air accident/incident investigations are thorough, consider all factors, are openly reported - it's a good way to go.
Indeed!
I wish all industries implemented a just culture. Instead hiding , not reporting , is reinforced and nothing really changes until that business is impacted financially. And even then, many have those 'gag" orders where no one can say anything bad or negative about the company. At least here in the US that's how it works.
This was a fascinating episode. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Thanks for the time and effort it took to put this all together!
Great video as always. The visuals you present with your storytelling are excellent.
It is very easy to understand just how quickly things unravelled in IMC with massive tailwind that low and unusual airport. Great to see Air France have the culture to openly show the issues so everyone can learn.
The editing in this video is amazing
So happy you liked it, Dominic will be happy to hear that.
Indeed he will. Thank you so much HETEROMAN!
And once again the "Flight Envelope Protection" has save this plane - and also a lack of CRM with propper communication is shown. Nice video
Thank you! Yes, the alpha floor feature is very useful.
Love your work, not only do you tell amazing stories, but you back it up with incredibly detailed videos.
Petter, you're just doing a fantastic job here. Thanks so much for your always-fascinating and thorough work!
Love your final comments @Petter. Like you say: it is (or should be) a culture, a "state of mind" which accepts we all make mistakes. But at the same time encourages mistakes to be shared and discussed (without sanctions) to improve safety. More generally: it improves quality. Boeing found out the hard way what happens when mistakes in manufacturing / testing are swept under the carpet.
I believe a very similar thing with the ILS on crossed runways also happened to an Air France A320 on final approach to Hamburg back in 2012. Apparently the pilots forgot to activate TOGA for the go-around, before the automation did so seconds from stalling. It is kind of weird how many such incidents Air France experiences.
Have you done the relevant calculations which allow you to say whether your final comment is a) true b) statistically signiificant ? If not, it would be better to keep your counsel.
Sure! You came across two ILS-related incidents during last decade involving the same company? This company must be really crap! Or you should attend Confirmation Bias Fallacy 101.
Since you two seem to have misunderstood my last sentence completely, here's the explanation:
I wasn't being clever. I am aware of exactly two recent incidents happening within the last decade, and I found it odd that both happened to Air France A320s. In general they seem to have more minor incidents with the A320 and A330 than other carriers like Lufthansa, KLM or British Airways. Therefore I find quite weird that it so often happens to Air France.
No need to get your knickers in a twist.
@@mikeblatzheim2797 I know it is 2 years later, but maybe there are more Air France incidents being openly reported by the pilots, this is why you get more incident reports. Mentour also said in another video that the French incident reports were the most detailed and best out there. This could potentially explain that.
Your breakdowns have amazing detail and These must take a while to put together. I appreciate the effort you put into these. 👏🏾
I’ve just been watching random videos as they show up in my feed. I’m not a pilot, but I am a quality management professional. Your matter of fact recitation of the reports is a great reminder of the importance of looking at ALL aspects of risk controls and not just stopping at the most obvious root cause.
This guy explains it so well that I always got the feeling to be able to fly one of those things after watching his videos...It's amazing...
I get the opposite feeling. It is amazing to hear how much is going on in the cockpit and how many complex system interact with each other. Offcourse, in the ideal landing everything works smoothly and things are routine, but offcourse pilot are well trained and payed for situations where things deviate from normal and within seconds they have to run trough their brains to find a solution - ideally keeping absolute calm.
I watch your channel for two reasons: I always learn something new from watching the videos
2. Your explanations are always so thorough and detailed.
As a wanna be pilot that flies model planes I am fascinated by aviation but too old to fly real planes.
Hi Peter, I wanted to take a moment to say Thank You!! This Video and so many others of your videos are Clear Concise and easily understood!! Even by aviation enthusiast like my self!! funny thing is that your videos have helped improve my RC Model plane piloting skills. oh and I truly appreciate how you find the positive spin in every situation you profile!!! Thanks a million and May you have Blue Skys & kind ATC's Always!!!
I love that you are always talking about the learning outcome. It's easy to blame somebody, but very mature to look for wrong behaviours in our own workflow that may have led up to an incident in the past.
Great video, Petter. As a former teacher I can say you're a natural. Concise, well-organized presentation suitable for both your fellow aviators and the lay audience, clear graphic aids and top notch visuals. My hat, sir, is off to you.
As always - a great episode. I'm a private pilot, and I can't believe how much I learn from watching these.
Well done, sir! Very interesting and I loved the animation; high-quality and informative! Reassuring to learn of not only the existence of Just Culture but the obvious whole-hearted embracing of the concept! Keep up the great work!
I love the chapter on Just Culture. I’m just an aviation enthusiast and I truly enjoy your videos and learn a lot. I see how what you said can be applied to just about any job where safety has the highest level of priority. Thank you for that 🙏
Thank you for your videos! I have nothing to do with aviation, but after watching your videos for a month, I feel 100 times more safe while flying! Like, really! A couple of years ago I started feeling unsafe and unsure while flying commercial (I guess it happened right after the S7 crash a couple years back, because I flew with that company like a week before the crash and hadn’t enjoyed the flight at all 😬), but I’ve noticed last week I had no problems on the flights I took, no stress, no anxiety, nothing! So thank you for that!
Thank you so much for explaining the glideslope, this is the first time I've been able to follow along with an explanation well enough to understand how it works! I appreciate your attention to detail so much; You are an amazing teacher! :)
Thank YOU for being here and interacting. If you want to help ME, consider sharing the video with your friends.
It really helps.
@@MentourPilot Believe me, I already have-- And my friends enjoy your content, too! :)
Yes, I've often heard about the false glidescope, and had vaguely worked out what it was - but your explanation (split up into normal glidescope and false) is excellent. Thank you.
I can't even imagine how tough a pilot's job is . I have been listening to your explanations on incident's and is learning stuff that would never have known as a passenger in a plane.
I’ve wanted to be a pilot for a long time, but the responsibility you have if anything goes wrong is always on you. Doesn’t matter if improper maintenance or if the tail breaks off, somewhere along the line an action you did or did not would be a contributing factor. I think there’s too much emphasis on pilot error.
You do a great job explaining the different issues in aviation. Keep up the good work
Thank you for this video, it's a great way to get the word out about issues like this.
One small thing, the RF frequency for the ILS is shown as 90hz and 150hz. This can't be possible since a directional antenna at that frequency would be hundreds of feet long, and they're not. Goggle lists the frequency for the localizer to be between108MHz to 112 MHz. And the glideslope is between 329.15MHz and 335 MHz. Note that's MegaHertz, not Hertz. It's a small detail and doesn't effect the point of the story or even how ILS works. Just an fyi.. Only reason i caught it is that I've been an RF (radio) guy 40+ years. Thane again for a great video!
Of course, a massive discrepancy! But see Alex Bristor's post. I'll quote it here (if I may?): A minor technical clarification on ILS, the localiser transmits a carrier signal in the frequency range 108 to 112MHz and the glideslope in the range 329.15 to 355MHz. The 90Hz and the 150Hz lobes are modulating signals on the carrier signal.
@@gyrogearloose1345 that's right both the gs and loc transmit sidband lobes of 90 and 150
Loved the video, it’s always fun to take these cases to a discussion in ground school!
Thank you! Glad you liked it
This is a great episode, thank you for making these well researched videos with such high quality!
Always great to listen to your very informed explanations of Aircraft experiences!