The INCREDIBLE ROVER P6s - DESTROYED, FORGOTTEN AND A WORLD AWAY!
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- čas přidán 28. 11. 2023
- in this video we cover some of the maddest Rover P6S ever made, including the performance models by BLs racing devision that were destroyed and then shipped across the world to live a new life as well as the gorgeous Rover TCZ and Graber Coupe's the ended up being lost to time. The concepts that were ahead of their time like the Rover Estoura P6 Estate as well as talking about one of the most mysterious of all P6s the VIP.
I have credited where possible but as usual I would like to add AROnline are an incredibly valuable source of information and you should check them out here: www.aronline.co.uk/
Follow me on Instagram for more cool stuff: / tomisdrivingcars - Auta a dopravní prostředky
In the early 1990’s I was lucky enough to be taken out for a drive in the TCZ. I will never forget that day. The stylish TCZ was another ‘what might have been’ for the British motor industry.
At least it became the basis of the Alfa Romeo Junior Z (Tipo 105.93 and Tipo 115.24) and aspects would resurface in the Lancia Fulvia Sport 1.3S and Sport 1600 (Tipo 818.650 and Tipo 818.750).
The rear hatch would open, and inch, and pull in fresh air.
My dad had a 2000tc when I was a kid. I was the youngest of 3 children and as a result when travelling in the back of the car with not a single seat belt in sight, I used to sit on top of the arm rest. I cringe when I think about it but I didn’t come to any harm .. btw I had a p5b coupe for 11 years until I sold it to wheeler dealers for a fraction of what it would be worth now, excuse me a moment whilst a go in to the garden and scream 😂😂😂
We've all done it.....£5
5k Delta integrale, £10k E type....any room in garden 😂😂
I had many and loved them so beautiful and to drive.
Nice vid. Thanks. I own a 76 3500. I was doing 10,000 miles a year in it until recently. Dad was a Met police officer and use to drive them in anger. Said they were always his favourite pursuit car. Mines probably one of the best in the world. If you're ever down Malvern Hills way give me a shout and take her for a spin. Drives better than it looks!
I spotted the TCZ on 11. June 1988 in Shafton Road, South Hackney (London E9) registered YNP 851G. It's worth noting that the P6 was designed from the start with removable body panels in the manner of the Citroen DS, which was David Bache's main inspiration. Like the DS, the car had a steel cage monocoque to which restyled panels could be attached, making different (and facelifted) models possible. At 1285 kg at the kerb, the 2000 TC was quite heavy for its class.
I had a p6 v8 auto in 1975 which was one of the most comfortable car's I've ever owned. In 1976 I changed it for a P6s with a manual gearbox but the gearboxs were said to be not man enough for the V8. I always preferred the Auto. A mate of mine at the time was brakes, suspension manager at Rover he said the P6 was the only car he's watched being built that he would happily buy. I bought a Vauxhall Ventora straight 6 after the P6 but although it looked very comfortable and was a top of the range model it really wasn't a patch on the p6 I could drive the P6 for hours and get out feeling fresh and not tired. But the Ventora was not in the same class as when I did the same journey in that car I ached and felt as if I'd done a mini marathon.
Thanks for the mention 😄 . I have a new knob for that TCZ at home 😅 I keep meaning to send it to him.
At 12:22, you talk about the Graber 2000 convertible. I did see on a online salvage auction site about a year ago up in the midlands a Rover 2000 rag top for auction.
It had seemed to have come out of deeeeep storage. It did sell I believe, but I paid it no attention thinking it was just an enthusiasts roof chop attempt.
Whether it was one of these Graber cars I have no idea.
In 1969 I was a van driver for a company selling engineering equipment. I had to learn who the customers were so I could become a company rep and driving a van delivering goods was the easy way. One of my side jobs was caring for the boss's Rover V8 3500. he had passed on his 2000TC to his main manager. I had to wash them and refuel them and occasionally go collect clients in the V8.
I went to the Earls CourtMotor show in 1969 and I actually saw the 'Crayford' 3500 V8 Estate. I thought it looked absolutley gorgeous.
I teased my transport manager by asking for a Crayford estate instead of the Vauxhall Viva HB Estate they actually gave me in 1970.
Good video.
Still got my 1965 series 1 2000sc with Buick 300ci in it --- stupidly fast but hates corners - the iron block doesn't help with handling -- had the car since late 80s saved from banger boys for £50
I remember not long after the P6 was launched motoring journalists were saying that the prototypes were that long in development they were ready for an M.O.T. before it was finally introduced to the public. Having driven the 2 ltr, the 2.2 ltr and 3.5ltr they were all lovely cars to drive.
I've never seen a TCZ in the flesh - but would love to.
The 3500 (213ci) engined P6 was an absolute delight to travel in - quiet as can be and very relaxing.
3528cc (215ci)
Ah thank you - didn't know the exact figure!@@frankdesbaux
A real blast from the past in your opening talk: we had that very radiogram at home when I was a child back in the late 60's, early 70's, I would recognise that unit anywhere.
This is an excellent and fascinating video, thank you 👍my Dad had an L reg 2000 TC when I was small, mustard yellow with a black vinyl roof and a black leather interior. He traded it in for a Lancia Beta!
I have a 1970 Three Thousand Five, in Tobacco Lead brown. One of the cross overs with the Mk.1 dash and grill/badging etc. But the non-opening rear quater lights, in place of the smoke extractors in the 'C pillar'.
It was my first car, brought in 2013 and served me very well daily at the time.
I'm sure the Estoura was a rare order because you had to purchase the base car to be converted, with all the tax and what not, but then had to pay tax on the conversion, at nearly the same rate as buying a new car. This made it a rather bitter pill for all but the most determined buyers
I used to play table tennis 24 years ago and there was a guy who was 86 years old with this car. He had this car for a very long time. He told me he’d replaced the engine twice; the last one after 300,000 miles. It was his pride and joy. He also was a chain smoker. I think his car lasting reflected himself.
Thanks for this video. I grew up in Solihull during the time of the P6 and all this brings back memories. My father ran a company supplying parts to Rover and set himself the task of changing his own P6 regularly until he had owned one in every colour. As soon as I passed my test I was driving them! You have not mentioned the competition use of some early 4 cylinder cars in rallies. I they were red with FLK reg plates and one of the drivers was a Rover experimental man called Toney (note spelling) Cox who later went onto run his own Birmingham garage.
Always loved the P6 thanks for all the new information
When my Dad took over his body shop in Switzerland in the early Seventies one of the cars on the lot was a P6 that had quite a heavy hit on the nose. Everybody loved the vehicle , but at the end it got scrapped as the damage was so big that the repair would have cost more than the car was worth. But some people sat in the car just to enjoy the comfortable leather seats.
By the way Graber was a coachbuilder a few miles from where I live. And I did drive Graber cars for clients, mainly Alvis Coupes.
While the company is long gone, some of the tools and machinery used in building those cars still exist. I could use them for building patch panels for my oldies.
Excellent cover. Well done. UK
Great stuff! I saw a Rover 400 the other day - I was thrilled!
These videos contain a wealth of information - like an encyclopedia of Rover! 👍🏻
Thanks!
I lived right next door to the Rover factory in a Council house in Solihull, we walked passed the factory going to infants & Junior School . I emigrated to California in 1988 & finally bought my only ever Rover , a P6 Rover 2000 . I rebuilt the TC engine , upgraded the original A/C which worked brilliantly . I even put P6 as a personal plate . I finally sold the car before retiring out here in Hawaii , where I found 2 MGB's , one for my son & 1 for me . Thanks for the great video , the Zegato is a really nice design , shame the twits at Rover couldn't see the potential .
Good lad, Tom. Love these.
Thanks! I love making them
I had 3 P6s over the years from 1979 to 2012 all 3500s manual V8s ..fantastic cars when running well but notorious for rust in the base units ..motto fear not what the outer panels are like (bolted on to an endoskeketal base unit) but check absolutely everywhere on the base unit for rot .4 speed manual S gearboxes are fragile and can suffer from jumping out of reverse gear and bearing noises and the dedion elbows can rot and break causing catastrophic results.
Get a good one and they are fantastic but get a bad one and they are an endless money pit.
I learned to drive in our 'L' reg, 3500s.
Loved the thing.
It was the 2nd favourite car we ever owned.
I was the youngest o 3 children so I had to sit on the “hump” in the back seat of my dad’s 2000TC , Burnt Grey with red leather seats. I still have a longing for a car with red leather interior 50 years since I last rode in the Rover. Happy days!
My first dream car. A rover p6 2000 TC. I modeled one out of cut up lolly pop sticks at school. I thought it was a space rocket. Later in life my hero technical support guru Bob Oaks had a 3500 in beige.
He had the full mustache, wide collar and flares. He was and is still my Hero. As was the car. Even in beige it was and is a spaceship model. Blue is the colour mine was. Lolly sticks forever.
Terry.
Roger Clarke started his rallying career in one. Didn't know about the coupes, smart looking thing. They were ten a penny when I started driving, my dad had one for 6-7 years when I was a kid. He broke a few for spares, the boots and bonnets could be steel, aluminium or fibre glass, there was no consistency guess it was 70's supply issues? I worked on quite a few, they were well thought out to work on.
The P6S was the best looking Rover I have ever seem. I haven't seen one on the Road in a long time.
Excellent presentation, really enjoyed that and learnt a thing or two. Used to occasionally drive a blue 2000SC (maybe a 2200, but definitely an SC) and knew of 2 manual 3500S's that were "laid up" in barns (this was early 90's, they will have long since been snaffled up for pennies or destroyed). Have been binging on your channel for last 2 nights. Excellent stuff!!
Thank you! Really appreciate the feedback.
I had a Rover P6B 2200TC, loved it and kept it for years. I then went on to a Rover 2600 SD1 series 1 and a series 2 2600 SD1 SE love both of them too. Didn't go for a Rover 800 but was offered a Rover 75 for free but had nowhere to keep it so let it go. Great video, thanks for making it.
Nice one Tom…. I made my father buy a P6 v8 back in the 70’s he absolutely loved it…. An I did when I borrowed it to pick my girl friend up 😂
Very nice presentation Tom. And I love your stereo unit... Best wishes from another Tom (in France), and I've subscribed.
Thanks Tom
Looking at the "race" P6 - my 1973 model had a particularly weak bonnet catch and the (aluminium) bonnet blew over the windscreen - twice - so retaining pins were installed!
The VIP version was unknown to me until recently when one came up for sale as you mention. All the toys, except for the rare front spoiler "wings" which were in the catalogue.
This happened several times to me whilst driving around London in the late 80s
My eldest brother had a P6 2000 back in the 60's and loved it apart from rust. Once again short sighted management blew it
The P69 looks very like a Lancia Fulvia Zagato, one of my favourite cars.
Nice Video Tom - lots of stuff in here I didnt know. Ive seen a number of purported VIP's which turned out to be 3500's with tinted glass :-) My Dad had a 2000TC - reg # VXC 700F - factory reg and no doubt some sort of Management car I guess - Arden Green originally with Cream / Ivory Leather Interior . The coupe's and TCZ's were wonderful looking vehicles and Leyland should have listened - would have made a decent car beautiful . I purchased a 3500S myself quite a few yrs ago now and removed it from the owners garage - HOX 607N - orignally a Denovo car - 1 owner and 50k miles when I bought it .Sold it about 1yr later having done nothing to it but accumuated a continental kit and the correct 3500S wheel trims and wheel nuts (hens teeth to buy at the time ). - wonder where the car is now !
The Rover P6 was indeed a superb car ... I have had the pleasure of owning one...I only had it for 18 Months in 1993-1994 but I am so pleased I got to own one. They are a great car.
The Rover P6 was the last REAL Rover... The Rover SD1 was just a British Leyland with Rover badges stuck on it.
To be absolutely accurate, it was the Last Rover designed in house when it was an independent company. I can say that I have one of the last models produced just at the changeover from Rover to BLMC which is a 1966 Mk III P5. However it was clear that BLMC and subsequently Leyland milked Rover for what all it was worth.
I also run an MG ZT and it is clear that the Rover concept was coming back into play. However I liked the video largely because it showed how very innovative Rover was and what a shame it was to have that company lost to us whilst that other shower call the shots. Never the less, it's pleasing to have the younger generations rediscovering what we could do.
An interesting presentation, thanks. I owned a number of P6 Rovers, both four and eight cylinder models. As someone else mentioned, the auto box was the better option on the V8. Great cars, one of my V8 cars had the had the spare wheel touring kit on the boot lid.
If anyone is restoring a P6, get in touch. I’ve a decent-ish pair of original front wings in my garage!
It's worth comparing this Coupe to the Zagato which Harry Metcalfe has has a similarity around the headlights and also the interesting little rear hatch fence
A MAGNIFICENT car…
My father had a dark blue P6S manual with black leather and full lengh webasto roof in the late 70s, the first car i really remember, i loved tbat car....
Tom : Thanks for this really interesting video on the Rover P6 & the variants thereof 😉👍 !
N.B. : "Life is an Education !" . . . there are facts on here which I did not know about the Rover P6 etc. . . . "Keep UP ⬆️ with the Good Work, Good Sir !"
Roger 👍
Thanks Roger!
I always thought that the P6 was “peak Rover”. The SD1 while iconic in its own way wasn’t a technical advancement and later were collaborated models. Brilliant video yet again 👍
Thanks Craig, I agree with you as well.
My dad had a city grey tc 2000 with red leather interior.. the smell inside was just incredible
What a beautiful looking car.
My brother had a 3500S in the 70s olive green with white leather interior and a white leather spare wheel cover on the boot.
Token Melbournian chiming in, you almost got Melbourne right. Fraser - a fellow p6’er here in Melbourne has nearly finished a replica of the Spa car. The Camel Sports Sedan still exists and recently came up for sale on Facebook of all places. Another interesting variant of the p6 are the CKD models built in NZ. Triumph colours, much better aircon, slightly different interior controls, NZ glass, different engine bay details etc. The p6 might be an engineer’s delight from the amount of tech built in but they can also be a bastard to fix when they go wrong!
Wow, it is a slightly distorted version of the Lancia Flavia SS Zagato by the same Ercole Spada.
I did a PDI on a Silver VIP when it was delivered to our MD, very nice car, the AC was a real novelty. I thought they also did a Jubilee version?. Had a few of these things myself, the 3500S was a lovely thing.
the tcz could have done wonders as could the estates,with a bit more tweaking. great vid tom
Thanks Chris!
There was another coachbuilt P6 two door, but I can't remember who by. It kept the standard base-unit/monocoque and 'simply' swapped the two doors on each side for one longer front door and a static rear panel and window section that fitted inside the standard roof line. Presumably some alterations were also made the front seats so they folded up enough to allow access to the rear. Apart from the doors the car appeared standard, and I think the conversion was offered on any engine/trim. Given the way the roofline sloped anyway, the P6's basic shape made a very neat coupe. I've seen pictures and info on this in a general history book on Rover, but I can't remember the title, sorry.
First car I can remember my father having was a brown TC, I think it was a 2000, not a 2200, and it might have been YDF626K. After that he had a 2000 SD1 in moonraker blue.
I always fancied the idea of taking a P6 as the basis for a resto mod, perhaps as a two door with BMW M3 based underpinnings. But P6's are a bit thin on tbe ground to cut about these days, and I don't have the time/space/money anyway..
I used to borrow my father in laws 3.5S. I loved the way it rocked when you revved it 😁😁😁😂 Happy Days!
Oh! And don't forget how the ' reserve' switch would catch you out 🙄😅. Cracking review pal 👍
Thanks Patrick!
@@tomdrives it's nice to see young uns with soul 😉👍
Great video Tom. Brought back memories racing 2 RO80s across the north of England in V8S. Great power and torque, but no feel to the steering made diving into the corners feel a bit scary/foolhardy!
The P6 was magnficent. If Rover had continued building it maybe they would'nt have collapsed
Very interesting story.
What a great looking car the TCZ was and a shame it never made production. Maybe a lost opportunity considering the similar Audi 100 Coupe' which came out 2 years later.
One of those Graber coupes is somewhere in Holland, I've seen it, it was undergoing restoration back in early 2000.
The p6 was the only car that really put a smile on my face .
Interesting video. Surprised you didn’t mention that the P6, launched in 1963, was intended to have a gas turbine engine and was effectively a production version of the earlier 1961 Rover T4, which used the same David Bache body design and was powered by Rover’s gas turbine, built using technology it developed during WWII.
As well as the same body style, the P6 used many other design elements of the T4 such as the front suspension designed to provide the much wider engine bay needed to contain Rover’s gas turbine engine. Sadly, Rover dropped the gas turbine due to excessive costs and the only T4 gas turbine car is now at the Midland motor museum (alongside JET 1).
To the casual observer the T4 looks identical to the production P6 (except the grill). Whether the car still runs I don’t know.
It was a P4 that had the gas turbine . It was originally in the British museum.
@@Indigenous51 Google vehicle reg. number 6427 WD. This car is also at Gaydon museum. 👍
@Indigenous51
P4 is “JET 1” that I mentioned - the world’s first gas turbine car built just after WWII in 1948, which ran for a few years and reached 152 mph. It is still registered with the DVLA with the JET 1 number plate and the entry details confirm 1948 is the year of manufacture. And it is still on permanent display at the London Science Museum (I was mistaken when I said it was at the Midland museum).
But there are two other Rover gas turbine cars: the two door coupe T3, built in 1956, and the “Rover 2000” T4, built in 1961. Both of these cars are on display at the Midland motor museum.
@@Indigenous51now in the Science Museum, (I think?)
I have never been a fan of Zegato but the Cam tail is interesting. The P6 was well designed but the lack of internal space made it a little cramped (and I am not either fat or tall). Putting the Buick V8 in it was the key to its success, making all the models more desirable.
Interesting video Tom. It's always a pleasure to read and see anything to do with the Rover story.
You mentioned in the video that 160 P6 estates were built and of those only 8 were P6 V8 S manual estates. That is incorrect. Firstly, the FLM records on numbers were lost and it was only an estimate from a former staff member on how many cars were actually converted. Secondly, when I had my V8 auto estate back in the 1980/90s I knew of at least 12 V8 S estates + one that was later converted to manual. I still have them noted down on paper. I suppose it would have been better to say "estimated" in your video. Anyway, other than that it was very well presented.
I agree with you yes, thought that myself that I should’ve included the figure as estimated. Only issue is I thought of that a week after posting! People will see this comment and it’ll clear things up so thank you for your help.
I saw a P6 V8 estate a few weeks back!
The technical complexity of the p6 attributes to the fact that during development, simple was not king, Spen was king.
My dad had it’s sister car, a 1969 mk1 triumph 2500 pi… a truly beautiful car
I love the triumph as well, lovely cars. Almost bought one a year or so ago
@@tomdrives I’d love to own one, Growing up in Birmingham a few miles from the Longbridge plant I have always had a thing for BL cars. There was a time where Rover ooozed class
0:06 Thoroughly enjoyed this video. I never knew about the grabber coupes, would have loved one of them. I subscribed already for updates on the SD1 2600. One irritation though is the rear suspension is pronounced 'Dee Deeon' just saying.
The front suspension was designed to allow for the fitment of the gas turbine engine.....
You really are the font of all knowledge re: British cars. Top Gear should re-boot (properly) and have you as the lead presenter! Your vids are packed full of info.....and....very watchable. Thank you Tom
Wow, thanks!
No, he is not, his narration is full of inaccuracies!
Years ago I spotted a p6 reg. No roy 987 I asked the owner how much for the plate .he said its not for sale but you can have the car for two hundred pounds .I bought it on the spot. I enjoyed it for the short time I owned it.but replaced it with a daimler sovereign .didn't retain the plate .
The Zagato Fastback Coupe.
Their were rumours that it would have had its nose altered to have the style of a Riley, and also fitted with an optional T-Bar Roof.
It would replace the Austin-Healey 3000 in the USA.
Sadly Rover's Buick V8 Engine, was not meant to be sold in the USA, for 10 years after its sale (or so I have been told).
Whether a redesigned Graber Convertible, with Riley accents would have joined the line up that would have been interesting.
Sadly Sir William Lyons of Jaguar and Lord Donald Stokes of Triumph, killed off both the Alvis and Riley car marques.
BL management spent more time fighting each other, than getting on with building cars people actually wanted to buy.
****
The P6BS/P9, would have been an Alvis.
Sadly, the only thing that came of it, was Derek Meddings magpie-ing bits of it, to create the Flying Car from Joe 90.
The thumbnail pic car to me looks like a lancing fulvia at the nose, very citroen looking side view and a ferrari at the back. It really is a very pretty car for the time, and if BL had it lined up with the sd1, it would have sold well as a family car with supercar looks. Sadly yet another missed opportunity for BL to be competitive and get some badge respect
I had the rover p6 3.5 litre V8 with the spare wheel on the boot lid 1974 Scotland it was a 1968 white in colour absolutely fantastic car with a black vinyl roof
The P6 saloon was a gem (slow as heck in 2 Litre form, interesting as Gas Turbine Gas Turbine test bed) but that coupé: The ugly love child of a Ford Capri and Morris Marina!
Why would Ford want to associate with rubbish?
Wonderful , nice B Accent.
British car makers: snatching defeat from the jaws of victory since ages ago.
I passed my driving test in my dads 2200 TC, the driving instructor said are you sure this is your car, I was 18 years old.
The Gaffer!
Great piece on the P6, as always good fun. As a petrol head this is the best I've seen on the P6's racing efforts.👍
the Aston Martin DB4 Zagato I thought would be one you'd mention as a Brit, in the line up of well know cars styled by Zagato.😉
I’d like to make an entire video on the Zagato-British connection. Like you said there’s some very interesting ones.
@tomdrives and English Graber bodied cars. The Alvis TE/TF by Graber is touring car perfection to me.
But yes, go for Zagato UK, the Bristol connection produced some very interesting cars.
@@tomdrives I have a very short video of 2 Alfa SZ driving by, filmed last year at the museum/office in Arese.
Zagato. Also the prettiest version for another British brand. Yes, and for an Italian brand too.
Der Rover P6 war meiner Meinung nach das schönste Auto das Rover je gebaut hat. Als Kombi wäre der Rover noch besser gewesen. Dazu noch der TZC, das wäre ein rundes Paket gewesen.
I would have said it replaced the P5 i owned a P5B Coup 3.5
No mention of the Rover T4, the 1961 gas turbine prototype based on the P6 prototype? It survives today at the British Motor Museum .
We Had a Rover 2000 (p6) when I was a kid.. I recall one its unique features was that the body panels were bolt on, and could be easily removed for repairs
I worked at the Rover when the P6 was launched, and the Range Rover (£2000 at the time!). I used to walk through the Experimental Dept nearly every day, a real treasure trove of very advanced concept designs which included a stunning gull wing sports cars which British Leyland dumped in favour of the awful TR7 when they took over.
Worked on the TCZ when I was an spprentice.
Where at?
the front end of the TCZ is very similar to the Triumph Stag prototype
Is there a TCZ available to see at the Heritage Museum? Has anyone seen it?
The shape of the front bonnet on the Rover TCZ reminds me of the Ford Capri MK3. Both cars had twin headlights with the bonnet drooping over the headlights. What happened to the british independent car industry was a tragedy that was met with difficult times, from the oil crisis to a militant workforce led by a communist unionist who despised BL management who’s philosophy was to underinvest in new models but use existing models with cost cutting modifications which resulted in disasters like the Triumph Stag having two different engines welded together that caused numerous problems like overheating. As well as
complacency, no matter how shoddy British cars were made we could always rely on our export markets in the commonwealth, until the invasion of Japanese cars to British shores, offering more reliable cars at an affordable price with extras as standard.
The tcz is really nice and the longship looks brilliant in that colour scheme
Good dialog. But some of the images were rather dark and hard to see
One of the convertible’s is very well known as it’s sat in my brother’s garage. Unfortunate not drivable but mainly complete. Last on the road in the late 80’s I think .
I always thought that the p6 replaced the p5 not the p4, it makes sense to me.
This is sacrilege the car would of been a massive hit. Cannot believe there's only one!
14:00 - she's an auto box, as well
Pye stereogram in the back ground lol
great mate
Thanks Gary
And what about the turbine car (which nearly made production and is the reason for the horizontally acting front suspension) and the P6BS (which was killed by it being an E Type beater for less than an E Type). Both still exist in the British Motor Heratige Collection at Gaydon.
There was also a car raced in Ireland very successfully at the time by a driver from Dublin called Alec Poole. Not sure if he built it himself or if it was ex-works?
Me watching this video while in my p6 3500s. And the rarest estate car made in uk would be the 1955 humber super snipe mk4 estate
It shouts mid eighties Alfa Romeo GTV.........Or vice versa !
I have a 69 and have had it now 35 years. Drive every summer!