The tunnel where people pay to inhale radioactive gas
VloĆŸit
- Äas pĆidĂĄn 21. 11. 2021
- In most of the world, inhaling radon for pain relief sounds like a bizarre idea. In some places, though, it's so accepted that it's prescribed by doctors and covered by health insurance. And I have no idea how to talk about it. Thanks to the team at the Radonstollen in Bad Kreuznach: you can find out more about them at acuradon.de
SOURCES:
The paper I reference in the video is "Radon Exposure-Therapeutic Effect and Cancer Risk" by Maier et al, doi.org/10.3390/ijms22010316 - it is, as far as I can tell, the most comprehensive analysis of all the studies so far, and I recommend reading not just the paper but also the extensive bibliography. As mentioned in the video, they claim no conflict of interest but some of the funding does ultimately come from the radon therapy industry.
There are a LOT of papers about this, and about radiation hormesis. A Google Scholar search will rapidly send you down a rabbit hole of "this seems like it works" papers, followed by "this study had a very small sample size" or "this study had flaws" meta-analysis. I am not qualified to analyse their quality and conflicts of interest, so in this case, departing from my usual policy, I'm leaving that exploration as an exercise for the reader!
Location camera: Moritz Janisch
Producer: Marcel Fenchel www.fenchel-janisch.com/
Editor for Bad Kreuznach footage: Isla McTear
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No matter how I talk about this, someone will be angry at me: from skeptics who say that even this carefully-worded video is dangerous; to radon therapy advocates who'll be frustrated that I seem to be dismissing patients' testimonials. So to be crystal clear about my point in this video: my message is "This is a thing. It is interesting. We should study it more. If it works, it could help an enormous number of people. If it doesn't, we should probably stop doing it."
i see
Same
Two days ago?
don't worry tom im not angry
@@CarterC123 posted but not public
So this is the only tunnel in the world that can switch from Radon to Radoff.
That's rad.
đđđ
DANGIT you genius
Radon đđ Radoff đđ
I think I just heard a giggle from Marie Sklodowska-Curie's grave.
Tom Scott is literally the only person who can make a 10 minute video explaining why he canât actually make the video heâs currently filming and have it seem in line with his existing content.
Without a doubt haha
Tom Scott is brilliant!
Ha! Well put!
I think the reason is the writing. Tom's videos have a very specific tone, a vibe you always get from them. The writing here nails the tone, even if the point it's making is inconclusive.
@@DyslexicMitochondria well hello there :)
"I also have a duty to the truth: scientific, historical or personal."
A great quote from captain Picard.
This could be his Starfleet Academy application video! Totally deserves to wear that uniform ;)
But Tom says *scientifical, historical or personal.
Iâm so glad someone else caught this!!
Tom does wear a red shirt frequently.
I think Picard would use an Oxford comma though.
After 25 years with chronic pain I would be absolutely willing to try this out. I am less afraid of radiation than some of the very addictive drugs that are currently prescribed. More research in chronic pain is needed across the board.
I'm sure that the pain medication that I've had to take over the last 15 Years have done more damage than that tunnel could EVER do to me.
@@lolly166541 well, they could decide to pump in a level of radon thats way over safe levels. With a overwhelming amount of radon, you can die just from lack of oxygen.
I completely agree, I have had chronic pain for 14 years and take loads of medication, if this reduced my pain levels I could live a much better quality of life - sometimes I canât even get out of bed because of the pain, I have a wheelchair because I cannot stand for very long because of the pain - if this therapy worked it could save the NHS millions of pounds and make a massive difference to the lives of people with chronic pain.
Could someone please fund a research programme in this facility pleaseâŠâŠ
@@Thestuffnope well they could, but why would they though..?
@@Thestuffnope a rx could be messed up. A doctor could goof. You might be given something your unknowingly allergic to and so and so forth. đ€·
I'm increasingly convinced that Tom is surrounded by Germans at all times, offering to give interviews in their distinct regional accent
Well, if you are in Germany it's somewhat normal to be surrounded by Germans.
sis is correkt
@@simonvetter2420 I sink that too
Dis is true, yah
@@Jehty21 This warrants further study
I've been in constant pain for around 13 years now, been prescribed and struggled with opioid addiction and dependency for years, from which I am only recently recovering. To be honest I would try this, but I'm part of a vulnerable group who can fall victim to 'alternative medicine' scams, so I completely agree with this message.
R.J. Spina's book!
I live in Iowa, a state where not having a basement can be a death sentence during tornado season... and having a basement can be a possible death sentence for reasons related to radon.
Catch 22 it is :/
Radon mitigation exists. We had radon in our basement in Ohio, it's a simple fan system that takes the radon up through a pipe and out the roof of the house.
@@KellyS_77 youre lying ohions dont need basements to survive a tornado they scare the tornado away
One of them can kill you instantly,
The other has a small chance of giving you cancer in a decade or two.
I'd be more afraid of tornadoes.
I live in Nebraska and I donât know anyone whose house was hit by a tornado
"More studies are needed" is not a weak answer, it's an honest answer. And, in the overwhelming majority of cases, it's true.
Ghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh skwksisisiisis
Iaiaiak
iOS game was fun and fun m the game and then you can do it it u was a good good time for me green day and then you got to go to play another what game you are u gonna is a time for me to come back and play ark
Weak
No it's not a week answer, it's not an honest answer either. It's a year answer.
It's not a week answer, it's a weak answer
You're correct, it's a year answer
I misread it as "random tunnel" and was sure Tom had finally visited every noteworthy place
"This Tunnel in the middle of germany doesnt seem That interesting, because its not"
â F-it I donât really care this week , but I need to put out a video , so here is this tunnel I just happened to be near .â
Is that what you were thinking? Aristoth ?
Youâre one of the best video creators Iâve seen
on CZcams, especially when it comes to responsible stewardship of information. Youâre carefully balancing bias and investigating both sides thoroughly. Anyone who criticizes this video wasnât listening to what you were saying throughout, which makes it abundantly clear that youâre simply providing this as a point of fascination and an area of future study, not as an endorsement.
As a health researcher and skeptical scientist, my biggest concern here is - if this therapy truly works (and to a meaningful degree), why has the private company, who stand to make enormous profits if the therapy is effective, not funded that completely feasible study. My guess is that their internal data indicates pursuing such a study would not be worth the risk.
Would the study, if done correctly, be a very expensive affair? I imagine it is kind of of an awkward thing to pitch to investors haha. Also considering all the radiation therapeutics quackery going around since the discovery .. you can buy all kind of radiactive gadgets like bracelets online, with bold claims, yet it is just plastic with radium i suppose. Why would radiation from radon be unique? I am concerned too but Tom says the definitive study has not been done yet.
You're 100% correct. It could effectively end their entire business. From their perspective, they are in the business of pain relief. The guy in the video that runs it even says they are nothing more and nothing less. If their patients are reporting they are experiencing relief whether it's placebo or not, the clinic has much more to potentially lose than what they could gain from doing the study. It just would be a terrible idea to do the study from a business stand point. Even if it's inconclusive or mixed on it's conclusions, even that could really hurt their bottom line.
I'll add that, the private company doesn't actually stand to make enormous profits. It's not like you can patent exposure to radon a naturally occurring gas, nor is having a fan and air duct system patentable. If they do pay for the study, there's no way to prevent competitors from taking the benefits but not the cost.
They already have customers and approval from health insurance. I'm not sure how much more profit they can stand to gain, and the real risk of being edged out of your own market once you foot the bill.
I guess not only this, besides research itself, there probably would be needed high cost marketing campaign, because let's be honest a lot of people afraid of radiation.
To make the therapy widely accepted they would need not only to prove it really works, but also that the pros outweight the cons, including possible long lasting effects. It would be hella expensive and last years, and as others say, there's no incentive for them to do so, since their customers are okay with the current uncertainty.
Tom wouldnât go to a random tunnel, it would always be a VERY specific tunnel.
It's a radon tunnel, not a random tunnel.
@@simonseis744 that was a joke y
@@simonseis744 or was it đ
The odds of finding something fascinating by picking a tunnel randomly: very small. The odds of Tom making an interesting video with his ability to find fascinating topics, almost 100%.
@@simonseis744 Thanks, I had no idea what the OP was talking about.
Tom's mention and due care of his duty to the truth, scientific, historical, or personal, makes him worthy to wear a Starfleet uniform.
A shame his shirt is red.
@@hoej Should totally be teal, I agree.
Captain Picard would be so proud of him...
Are you capable of processing the real world without using fiction? If not you should work on that
@@jb76489 Apparently youâre not capable of understanding humor. You should probably work on that.
This is interesting considering where I work for at least three days of the week I absorb 10,000Bq for 4hr a day. The only mental or physical change even when I was going through pain with a dislocating shoulder was Radon just made me more tired and exhausted after work. We've had builders come into the cavern to build a bar and they told us it was taking a few days more than usual projects that size as everyone just feels exhausted. Radon is such a fascinating mystery for now.
maybe because too much exposure means the body needs to repair itself more than it usually would need to, thus taking up more energy/resources thus making you feel tired?
@@UnordEntertainment Or it's just because there is less oxygen
This looks to me like a giant, well managed, and highly effective placebo machine. Good on 'em: stopping chronic pain is worthwhile. But, please, run the study.
It could be, it might not be. Radiation is used in other real medical practices, particularly in killing cancer. "Damage" therapy is used all over the medical world, usually as a way to cause the body to initiate repairs on itself. For example, there's dermal needling (causing damage to make skin repair itself), or applying certain strong acids to wounds to provoke an immune response (like treating the wound left by removing HPV/warts).
Obviously, could be a placebo machine, but it's not totally outlandish, in my mind. Obviously, Tom Scott has pointed out a very good study to perform. Either outcome would be a net positive for the medical community, as both discovering what works and what doesn't work is always helpful.
Yes, to me too. Welcome to phase I for us both, I suppose, as Tom said!
Just because we're convinced we are sceptic and scientific, doesn't mean this is some bogus. Always remain open for new ideas.
This particular company probably wont, since the risk of the results would make them either with no money(If proven it doesn't really do anthing) or they would have more competitors (if proven it really works) đ€Ł
this was supposed to be a video about radon therapy, but it's actually a video about thorough, thoughtful, and responsible research. Well done as always, tom
applies to every video
says squid game
Tom really is a fantastic responsible journalist
Squid gsme
+
Me 2/3 of the way through: "Surely someone could double-blind this."
Tom's conclusion: "Please, somebody, double-blind this."
It'd be interesting to see a double-blind on this, but I think the biggest hurdle would be the owner of the tunnel. Such - let's say unproven - health practices often love to publish some self-funded study proving they work, but I doubt they'd take the risk of actually finding out that it's all just a placebo.
It'd probably require someone to actively know if there was radon in there at that moment for safety reasons and to make sure the levels did not get too high. It'd probably still be possible to double blind it though.
@@carus6280 Double-blinding is not an all-or-nothing thing. You can have one person know, as long as they have no interaction with the researchers or the patients. It's still not ideal, and could introduce some flaws, but it's better than the alternatives. In fact, Double-blinding is frequently not entirely successful, as patients often know whether or not they have taken the real intervention due to side effects.
@@ragnkja Literally blindfold them?
@@ragnkja
I think it would be enough to hide the identities of the people in the study until all the data is analysed.
Then you peel back the labels and discover who is who and see if there are statistical differences.
Radon is a huge problem in my area, so it's interesting to see someone using it as alternative medicine. People are very scared since it's completely random and very localized issue, like in a city block you can have one house with radon and another completely clear.
Same. Easy to measure, easy to sell things that lessens the real or perceived problem. Probably truth is something in-between depending on the illness. Like Metal-illness Vs. Cancer.
I LOVE how you present all your videos. You really dig into things and have a great way of presenting fascinating tic bits. Yet you remain balanced and you really get your viewers into your thought process. Keep up the good work!
'More studies are required' is not a weak ending.
It is a valid, and open, and genuine ending. It is the reason I subscribe. I value your words Tom Scott. To me you have integrity.
...such a rarity these days.
Isn't it definitely so, and who suspects it could be else is wrong...?
It's one of those things like where saying "I don't know" is weakness. Or "I don't have enough information to make a judgement" isn't considered a valid answer. It's daft.
@@ValleysOfRain I've noticed that more and more people are becoming unwilling to say that they "don't know".
@@hypnotoad28 are they old boomers??
It's true, but it's also a cop out. You could equally give a paragraph of what kind of studies are required, what kind of things they should be looking at, methods, and what knowledge gaps we presently have from existing studies. Ask yourself if you were to do more studies yourself, what would you do in these studies?
If you combine all of Tom's videos into one you can witness him cross the UK in a straight line twice
Hey, he's Tom Scott, not Tom Davies :-)
I'd bet he's walking along a leyline too!
in which direction?
@@morismateljan6458 this is an elite reference
@@antoncollett4402 Get in!
Not any more in this video than any of his others, but watching this distinctly had me feeling thankful that Tom Scott puts so much content out into the internet for us. You're an absolute top shelf product, Mr Scott - You deserve far more than your current sub count
This video was so professional. As always, Tom doesn't let you down and provides the best quality videos out there. *Thank you for this.*
Happy to be subscribed đđ»
"More studies are required" is always an acceptable conclusion to come to.
Usually. Except when you have limited time to make a decision. Like we probably don't need to do any more studies into whether parachutes work.
@UCl-q0oZW9kz-iHwCexVBNxg It's always an acceptable conclusion, you cannot force clear outcomes so sometimes it simply is the case that more studies are required. Of course it can be a WRONG conclusion if it's not actually true that more studies are required, but situations where it is the case do exist and in those situation it's totally acceptable.
â@UCl-q0oZW9kz-iHwCexVBNxg Depends are you suggesting parachutes always work in all scenarios? Because we know they aren't 100% successful otherwise we wouldn't run with backups. More studies are required is always a valid conclusion.
@@iAmTheSquidThing "each subject was given either a parachute or a placebo"
@@symawi312 well now I have no choice but to be a pedant, since you said "always". I think it's objectively wrong to say we need more studies about the cause of climate change before focusing on lowering greenhouse gas emissions
Fascinating to think this video could either be an early demonstration of some really revolutionary process or essentially a footnote for a wrong path in medicine.
I thougt the exact same
If the total exposure is less than a full body CT, of which I've had several, I'd say the major damage done to the person using this therapy is in their wallet.
@@ragnkja Exactly.
I've said this before I think, but I love your content. It doesn't even matter what the video is about. The way that you describe and explain things is so informative, and as unbiased as I could expect from anyone. Thank you so much for doing what you do the way you do it
Very good coverage of this topic! It does sound interesting.
I think it's worth mentioning that homeopathy is a huge market in Germany! They're not exactly immune to quackery, even though this particular treatment seems somewhat tightly regulated.
Superb and balanced video as always, better than many doctorsâ analyses of similar âtherapiesâ. But just because the Germans are less bombastic than Americans in their claims about what can be achieved, this is unproven and more likely to be quackery than not. As Tom pointed out the potential exists to genuinely test this, yet with so many things, the motivation rarely comes from within the alternative medicine community. Letâs hope the video helps.
also, let's be honest, if the alternative medicine community (or even the company running that place) were the ones to do or pay for the test, could we believe the results? ;)
@El Dimos Karam Interesting theory, but do not underestimate the heaps of culturally shared remedies and medicines of which we have yet to harness the power by applying modern science methods and technology.
Xenon is, apparently, much more -fun- therapeutic. Surprisingly similar effects to laughing gas. Perhaps radon has similar properties unrelated to the radioactivity. What a shame there are no really stable isotopes for comparison.
Even if the study is done by a University team and they pay for the location, the tunnel operators would have such a strong interest to get a positive result. A official confirmation that it works would surely boost the business, otherwise they might go out of business or even get their license revoked. I am sure they would try to botch the results somehow...
@@1Hippo easily solved by having the university team replace the normal operators. Didn't sound to complecated to turn the flow on or off for a certain pipe.
For many subjects-this one included-the only honest answer is, "we simply don't know, but we have an idea of how to find out." That's not weak, that's science. In an era where confident idiots hold sway over public opinion, I welcome your acknowledgement that "further study is needed."
Took the words out of my mouth
Yes, but we also shouldn't sell this to people as a "potential treatment". There is no remote proof that this does any good. So while I agree that neither outright dismissal nor approval is warranted, selling this to sick people with no other hope really comes close to saying "this will help". Instead they should use their tunnel for research.
Having "an idea how to find out" is MASSIVE.
@@LuLeBe we've been doing that for years with everything else. not sure why this is your problem.
@@LuLeBe At certain points in medical research, you just CAN'T have conclusive evidence of whether something can actually work, until you test that something on the intended target, which in this case, people with chronic pain. Further research is needed, & further research in this case, is careful testing on willing participants.
doesn't matter what the subject is im watching it tom. your an amazing speaker, your edits and lack of with your continous shots never cease to amaze me and your enthusiasm is contagious. keep it up
I absolutely love the way you presented this topic and the video-style! It's such a nice contrast to the common "there are only two sides" approach that seems to have become the new normal nowadays. I think every journalist (or everyone who outputs content on social media) should learn a lot from that video.
"More studies are required" isn't a weak ending, it's a sequel hook.
And a scream for more funding. đ
The videos where Tom goes to a place and digresses into talking about the meta-story of the story he's telling about the place are some of my favorites. This is right up there with "Why You Can't Trust Me" and "The Moire Effect that Guides Ships Home."
My favourite is "A Town Called Asbestos"
i now have to go find all those types of videos - i love all of them too. seeing others' creative processes is both fascinating and also helps my own processes ^_^
@@elfinvale I know right? seeing the intended final product is obviously entertaining, but getting to see what its like trying to *get* there is just as tool.
IT REALLY WORKS!
6 to 8 weeks after watching this video I experienced no pain!
đ
It's rare to see CZcams videos with nuance. I appreciate it every time. Thank you :)
I sort of preferred the original title, âI donât know how to talk about this radon tunnelâ. The difficulty of talking about this sort of thing feels like a core part of this video, almost equally as the actual subject itself.
i agree
Hey whatâs your profile picture ?
@@MohidPvE it's the bisexual flag
The audience agrees that you are one of the best things
While that title is a better description, youtuber's have to cater and switch out their titles and thumbnails to what gets the most views. Without sacrificing the quality of their content, they can package the video with as much clickbait as they want.
See Veritaseum explaining different youtube thumbnails. The goal is to get more people see it.
I think an important thing to mention when telling people that there are doctors and health care companies in Germany who are endorsing this is that alternative medicine is quite big here. Most health care providers pay for at least some homeopathic treatments. I just got the feeling that the CEO implied that this would be extremely difficult in Germany because we are known as a rule loving nation.
Indeed. Because of the placebo-effect, homeopathic treatments can really help people who believe in it. That's why health care insurance covers it.
I agree. German health insurances pays for homeopathy, so why shouldnât they pay for some bogus radon therapy? It is time that German health insurances stop this nonsense.
Is this also the cause of the low covid vaccine rates in German speaking countries?
@@NikolausUndRupprecht I think there's a difference between homeopathy (not actively harmful) and radon therapy (potentially harmful).
I actually tried shopping around for a healthcare provider that would exclude all completely unproven alternative medicine back on public healthcare when getting my own.
When I eventually changed to private providers recently, I didn't even bother with that, just far too disillusioned from the prior search. They always fund some unproven alternative treatments and almost all even fund homeopathy.
Such a well balanced presentation, as ever.
Thank you, Tom, and please keep up this work đ
You approached this video in a clear and concise manner, with the right amount of scepticism and disclaimers.
Hope we get a double-blind study about this, it's fascinating.
Of course they didnât find Mercury in that tunnel, itâs a planet.
đ
Nice
If they're looking for Mercury, he's probably going to be on Mount Olympus.
mercury no fit in tunnel
There is earth in that tunnel, so why not Mercury?
Who would have thought? A socially responsible youtuber with a massive following using his platform to inspire researchers. Kudos, Tom.
This is so brilliantly put across.
Your presentation style is so professional, and the research well discussed.
And that conclusion at the end felt almost like a BBC documentary.
Really enjoyed that.
While treading a very precarious line , i think you did a great job ! And their is certainly my tests needed for chronic pain having lived with it now for 25 years !
Your approach to releasing information is an absolute top notch example of how it should be treated.
Chronic pain is such an overlooked, invisible illness. My heart goes out to those people. I really hope the necissary studies will get the funding soon.
Great video!
It's not overlooked, it's just broad as hell and can be caused by a million different things. Chronic pain is more of a symptom than a condition and we definitely research ways to deal with each underlying cause...
@@DrakeOola Sometimes the underlying cause cannot be cured, and so we must find ways to alleviate the symptoms instead.
â@@abetteryoutubehandle Why do you think weed was legalized? They have hundreds of general purpose pain killers and are researching millions more. Even Tylenol and Advil count as general purpose pain killers as well as stronger stuff like oxy or morphine. Yall speak like one of the biggest ailments worldwide just goes completely ignored by medical professionals... đ€Šââïž
@@DrakeOola đđ»
I have super minor chronic pain and it already screws with so many parts of my life. I can't imagine what having hard chronic pain is like.
Tom Scott has a way of making something that I never knew or cared about suddenly feel incredibly important.
Truth be told, i watch your video's for the information you deliver and charisma, the subject matter its self doesnt matter aslong its informative, Keep them coming, between you and Jay Foreman, your both 2 of my most watched channels and will be for a very long time i hope.
I think you had a healthy dose of skepticism with this. As someone who is eternally in pain, I'd like to see this studied further, but as a skeptical person, I ain't goin' in no radioactive tunnel without proof
Do not expose yourself to radiation, risk addiction to codeine.
@@gavxps1 Living causes cancer. Nowhere is safe.
@@dog-ez2nu less than 5% chance in a humans prime
@@ShabeerSniper 5% chance is way higher than I'd like for it to be. How likely would you want it to be for one of your loved ones to slowly suffer to death?
I believe one of the reasons Scott allowed this video to air, was the low risk when being exposed; itâs less than going for an international flight
Tom, this was a very responsible way to tackle an experimental treatment like this. Thank you for being the gold standard of how to research and discuss things like this on CZcams. It's a breath of fresh air, especially with all the drama surrounding Veritasium as of late.
What drama are you referring to?
I would also like to know!
@@LorenzJahn Tom Nicholas' latest video covers it
â@@mibadada Veritasium took money to talk about self driving cars in an unethical way
"a breath of fresh air" how appropriate đ (sorry for pointing out the terrible pun)
tom, you handled this topic perfectly, no matter what you do someone will always be upset, you took the middle ground and purely showed us an interesting topic, and it was a good video
This very well presented! You did a great job making your intentions clear and giving concise information.
This is a fascinating subject and I hope you will follow up when necessary!
I think you handled this issue well. You do have "duty of care" to ensure that you present facts, as many facts as possible, but only the available facts to your audience, and you did that. Good job!
Or, in this case, the absence of clearly established facts.
this is _100%_ true dude
@@DannySullivanMusic depends on what you mean by true. I trust Tom that this is not a fabricated story and i would even believe that people with actual chronic pains have been cured this way. In no way does it mean that the proposed mecanism behind this treatment is the one proposed. You might say "whatever, as long as it works". Except evidence based medicine only works with replicable results that can then be used to treat more patients. If the results are only due to placebo effect and not the radon, wouldn't it be better to not expose the patient to radiation, even in small doses?
This was about as responsibly as you could possibly handle this topic Tom. Very brave of you to put this video out and I applaud you for it. Hearing the claims I am much like yourself and very skeptical, but this is one of those things where there's just enough testimonial from patients that we really do need to have a definitive study done to evaluate whether the effects are entirely placebo, or there's something new we have to learn about radiation.
spot on. precisely right
Yep. Exactly. I'd probably benefit tremendously from ten one hour treatments of sitting in a quiet spot in a nice inviting space. Shouldn't be hard to do a controlled trial since people can't detect Radon at all.
Indeed, while the plural of anecdote is not evidence where an apparent pattern of observations suggest there is a there to go that is sufficient to justify entertaining seeking out, formalising and testing credible hypothesizes that could explain the apparent existence of said pattern.
@@brianhaygood183 maybe not you , bet some peep's can tho
Where I live in the US, any home that measures any radon at all is condemned! Radiation is a known source of cancer, I just canât imagine how it could ever be good for you? Uranium miners out west died by the hundreds from working in uranium mines back in the 50âs. Whole towns are condemned, fenced off from the public. But, if these people think itâs helping them, who am I to argue?
What an interesting video, I must applaud how responsibly you conveyed all this information!
I come to your channel to learn, and to find out things that are interesting and not something Iâd otherwise have the chance to learn; I, and probably most other viewers, donât come to this channel to be given an opinion on something. âMore studies are neededâ is valid. Iâd never heard of this, and having an unbiased view of different sides of an argument is still part of learning. This was a really cool video even if you couldnât, or didnât want to, form a definitive argument.
Looks like Tom is talking about some kind of tunnel Rn.
Ha!
hats off
Fair play
Nice one
đđđ đ€Šđ»ââïž
I read the title as Random Tunnel, clicked for silver and struck gold
Most of us did.
To be fair, it is quite the random tunnel, only that it is a very specific random tunnel.
Another intriguing and thought provoking video. I really appreciate the time and consideration you put into your work. Thank you.
That was so informative and I think you provided some excellent insight. Another great video, Tom.
"How bad would you describe the pain as being?"
"Well, breathing radioactive gas makes it more bearable."
"..."
There's drug seeking behavior then there's radioisotope seeking behaviour. Considerably more worrying if taking place in a marvel comic đ
Same energy as:
"Let me go outside and smoke a cigarette for some fresh air, I'm losing my breath in here. Be back soon. "
Believe me, I've heard that.
I recently setup a radon detector in my basement since it is partially unfinished and exposed to bare ground. We're also in an area considered to be in a "high chance" of radon. Happy to report that the levels are low and considered safe.
hey maybe you can even charge some Germans to spend time in your basement XD
Now you know you can lay on the basement floor to get cured of rickets đ
Wow please tell us more đ
There are research teams out there looking into such data, you could try to get in touch with them, as I understand it, these data sets are hard to come by and Radon builds up over longer periods of time without air exchange.
@@zwenkwiel816 lmao
Fascinating. Really enjoyed this.
I like the hypothesis: it's very appealing in its simplicity, but we know how rarely the simple hypotheses are borne out in fact.
As you say, more studies are needed
So I made my rant about lead and Radon half-life. Now I must simply say this was an excellent video, Tom. I'm always impressed with how you can articulate so much in such a casual manner, and visit many engaging considerations of a conversation. Well done.
That you've conceived of a way to conduct a double blind test of this is the real headline here.
As I was watching this video, I was thinking that there must be some element of relaxation therapy here. Sitting in those reclining chairs and quietly meditating in a cave would surely relax muscles and allow the participants to leave their stressful lives behind for a bit which is likely beneficial for pain relief. Even as a skeptic, I was enviously thinking how nice that would be to just sit there in contemplation.
Your proposed trial would be able to keep all of those factors the same and change only the actual exposure to the gas. I'd be interested to see the results of such a trial.
Whether you intended it or not, the challenge has been set.
Relaxation therapy would presumably produce at least some immediate results, though; they're clear here that it takes weeks for benefits to show. I don't think that's a major factor. (Although it's fairly easily falsifiable either way: just get rid of the chairs for a few months.)
This feels sort of similar to sweat lodges just not as intense tbh
@@MisterNohbdy Relaxing is a cumulative benifit. It could take weeks for significant results.
@@RobinTheBot And the guy at 4:42 said "it helped, it worked". I would endorse the help (some kind of placebo effect), but not the work...
From what Ive gathered, a lot of inflamation pain in people can be treated by applying heat.
because of that, carefully measured doses of some radioactive stuff could theoretically help with things like Rheumatoid arthrosis if placed in/near the joints simply because the radiation keeps them warm
I have no idea weather or not these gasses are usable for that.
In Germany, my state founded Helath insurance is still funding Homeopathy, but not a ongoing physiotherapy for a back problem I was diagnosed at and have struggled with since birth.
So, as Tom rightfully pointed out in this great video, what they pay for does not tell you anything about if it works. It's just ist not as expensive for them as something that actually works.
Skoliose?
This. Same for hearing aids or glasses. Yiu can't even avoid loss of hearing or your eyes getting bad... Its ridiculous!
Damn. Which state? This is dumb.
Homeopathy is from Germany, and imagine the national embarrassment that would occur if Germany actually admitted to the quackery?
@@numberpirate Thinking like this is a big part of the problem. You're pushing people to double down.
This is super fascinating, and I would love to see that study too Tom. Keep up the excellent videos!
This subject doesn't really have much to do with my current life. But you have a way of making things interesting. Now I also really hope that this will lead to a bigger study.
I think you addressed this subject very well. Letting the people from the center talk and giving your own skeptic thoughts about it. You gave the right balance between keeping your audience skeptic but not sounding like you're ridiculing the center and people who do feel the treatment works.
I really hope you'll be able to give us an update in a few years.
Itâs nice to see a (probably) placebo-only treatment being advertised exclusively for pain relief. The placebo effect is powerful in that area, but so many times, itâs dangerously advertised as an actual substitute for modern medicine. Glad to see it being used responsibly, and with as much transparency as possible.
On top of that, pain is one of the things modern medicine still struggles with. If someones pain can be helped just as well with a placebo as with modern medicine (or better), I see that as a win for the patient.
Yea, if it's placebo vs oxycontin/morphine, id go for placebo every time (course doesn't work if u know it is) even if there's a level of misinformation involved I think it's ethically dubious, but morally right in the end (granted the placebo isn't more dangerous than morphine haha)
I have a hunch that sometimes pain is just a "bug". It's the body's way to indicate a problem, but sometimes there isn't actually a problem. In that case, placebo is probably the best treatment, because it's using a psychological trick to correct a psychological error. Maybe there's a faulty "sensor", and the best thing you can do is convince the brain to just ignore it, instead of messing with the body's chemical balance trying to fix a non-existent problem.
@@isaacbejjani5116 Itâs been a while since I read up on it but Iâm sure I read somewhere that even knowing itâs a placebo can have an affect. I think it was something to do with performance enhancing in cycling or something. It was a while ago. Most pharmaceutical companies donât have to prove very hard that their pill is better than the placebo/control group as I remember the margins for passing to get approval are fairly small. Hence why it may be better to just take the placebo in some limited cases. I mean, itâs not just alternative medicine that tell outright lies about their treatments.
The trouble is this placebo happens to be exposing people to radiation, which has measurable risks.
No so a sugar pill.
Am becoming a bigger and bigger fan of how Tom presents his content. Such fantastic nuance and balance without shifting into some no man's land of "both sides are important".
PS - Plus points for the Star Trek reference. That Picard quote is one of my favourites.
What was the quote? I didn't notice it
Dee one of Picard's best lines ever.
You don't deserve. To wear. That. Uniform.
@@Poppamunz Tom's (or Wesley's) duty to "the truth, whether it is scientific, historical or personal".
Thanks for the care in this video Tom. As someone with Chronic pain, I'm ngl I'd be willing to give this a go if it helped others down the line. Also you know, could stop the pain for a lil bit.
Eager to see what this leads to. Excellent use of your platform!
it feels like this guy is literally one of the most reliable sources on CZcams full stop
Speaking as someone with chronic pain, I would love to see a study on this. I've given up on travelling anywhere, as it is so hard to get over the after-effects of the travel - even a car engine's vibration is torture, but I'd consider it if there was actually the possibility of an improvement. When the only other options are carrying on with large amounts of opiates and other meds, being put into a coma with ketamine or inhaling radioactive gas, the gas doesn't seem too bad.
How do the vibrations of the car hurt you?
I can recommend a book called The Mind Body Prescription and also The Divided Mind, both by Dr John Sarno. I used to have chronic pain myself and was almost suicidal at one point as it was so unbearable. After reading those books and following the self help guides (fairly simple stuff, no cost involved) I got rid of the pain. I still have the occasional flare up but nothing like as bad as it used to be. I hope you are able to recover. All the best.
well test it and tell us if it worked
@@joseph-medicis for patients with chronic pain the vibration of a car engine can feel like being violently shaken around would feel like for a healthy person.
You can always test it. Last time I checked you could buy uranium ore online. Or buy an X-ray tube and administer ionising ratiation that way.
Provided that it's the radiation and not a specific property of radon itself. Noble gasses seem to have some interesting neurological effects, particularly Xenon which is an anaesthetic gas, like nitrous oxide but much more potent (and much, much more expensive), Helium causes narcosis (apparently) at high pressures and definitely causes high pressure nervous syndrome. Obviously to breathe helium at such high pressures you either need to be in a hyperbaric chamber breathing heliox or under a few hundred metrers of water.
If Radon is bioaccumulative to an extent it might work similarly to xenon but over a longer time period and not many people are going to volunteer to breathe a mixture of 79% Rn and 21%O2 just to see if it causes analgesia.
You could test it on rats however.
The thing is, there are ALSO severe risks involved when using conventional, opium-derived pain medications. Risk management is at the heart of ANY treatment, and what is too risky for one person, might be the best option for someone else.
And 2 mSv is not that big of a risk.
Radon is a carcinogen
Except those risks are fairly well known and often outweighed by the proven benefits of opiods. There is a difference between risk management and stupidity.
Opioids have clear risks, but the benefits for pain relief have been clearly proven.
Radiation has clear risks, but the benefits have not been clearly proven. There really needs to be a double blind study to see of it works. Otherwise it could be placebo and unnecessarily harm people when other non-harmful placebo may work just as well.
I truly appreciate how hard you try to be non biased in your videos.
For someone who doesn't know how to talk about something like this, you do a remarkable job of it! It's fair and balanced, doesn't oversell a (possible bunk) therapy, but doesn't dismiss it due to preconceived notions. I agree, it sounds like snake oil on first hearing of it, and I still don't necessarily believe it, but I also agree that it's well worth finding out the real deal of this. Very much a "more research is necessary"-situation. Props for this video!
3:50 "A duty to the truth, scientific or historical or personal"
It is the guiding principle on which Starfleet is based! Now if you can't find it within yourself to stand up and tell the truth about what happened, you don't deserve to use that uniform.
This is becoming a speech!
He's the captain sir, he's entitled.
Tom does wear a red shirt after all...
@@Basement-Science hmph. Im not entitled to ramble on about something everyone knows
@@flashbaggins427 Prepared to die for his beliefs, clearly.
As always, an unbiased, honest video, from the one and only, Tom Scott. Thank you, sir!
Cheers Tom. This might well be my new favourite video of yours. I always love your attention to detail and your ability to explain complicated ideas to any mind. But your consideration for the ethics of what, why and when information should be shared really shines in this video above all others. I wish the whole of CZcams could pay the same attention to these kinds of details. You are the healthy bit of a platform riddled with dodgy algorithms and dark patterns. Keep up the great work!
as a 20 year suffer of chronic pain it gets to the point where anything that could help feels like an amazing escape from the pain but a lot of the time it doesn't work i've been through it all. i wish one day everyone could be pain free and not have to go through the torment i've gone through i'm 25 and slowly losing my ability to walk because of the pain thank you tom
I could see that. When all other, proven, methods fail, the more exotic ideas can be worth a try.
Did you try the radon therapy?
And that is the sad part - that is EXACTLY the type of people con-artists are targeting - those that have tried nearly everything that comes to mind.
I would sugggest telling yourself that this pain is not something wrong with your body but in your mind
You may have Ankylosing spondylitis (AS), my friend, which will cause chronic ache all around your body, especially your lower back and hip joints. AS is usually caused by mutation on HLA-B27 and therefore cannot be cured entirely, but it can be greatly relived by taking NSAIDs or biopharmaceutical injections, just like me, also a serious AS patient.
This is indeed the perfect scenario for a double blind test if ever there was one. Whether or not a radioactive gas could be considered a counter-irritant to kickstart the body into fighting inflammation and pain would be quite the study. That being said thereâs a lot of radioactivity-based pseudoscience and snake oil to carefully weed through.
But remember "pain" is a subjective measurement.
@@wpgspecb Ah! But that's the beauty of a double blind study, it eliminates subjective perspectives by comparing people who thought there were in the gas to people who actually were and seeing who got pain relief.
@@woolfoma it doesnt turn something subjective into someting objective, but if done correctly it can be used to turn something barely even qualitative into something that can at least be measured in the broadest of terms.
@@isaacmarkovitz7548 Actually, it does turn something subjective into something objective. That's the entire point of a double blind study to begin with. Using a double blind study you can objectively answer completely subjective questions.
This can be done for one primary reason, subjective perspectives are subject only to what the tester and test subject can perceive. So if 100 people go in the tunnel, and get told they are getting treated, and the staff think they are getting treated, and only 20 of them say they got relief. Then on the next batch 35 of the subjects get relief, that's a data point. Now only the person who is told "Hey group 1 had 20 and group 2 had 35" is the one to know which was actually getting the treatment, hence 'double blind'. Both the testers and subject are blind to the test. As there is some randomness to how many people get the relief you need many data points to form a trend, but if you notice a real trend over time that actually using the gas is causing more people to get relief then you have, in-fact, objectively measured that real pain relief is occurring.
â@@woolfoma Having an objective measurement of people's subjective experience does not make those experiences objective. It is thus not an answer to the problem you're originally responding to.
Fascinating.
Thank you for your delicate treatment of this topic.
Brilliant video and amazing work as always Tom.
"The tunnel where people pay to inhale radioactive gas" now that's a title Mr Scott. Hats off.
Having lived with chronic pain for the past 6 years, I would absolutely take this level of risk if my doctor thought it was worth it. Getting a radiation dose equivalent to an x-ray is, surprisingly, a lower health risk than some of the current medications and treatments available for chronic pain.
That's exactly how they make their money, exactly. You are ripe for getting scammed in all sorts of ways.
BTW i understand your position, ive been there.
Except that x-ray radiation and Radon gas are 2 very different types of radiation. One is safe and the other one will give you lung cancer and kill you if you breathe it in... even at "radiation levels equivalent of an X-ray".
It's a bit like comparing huffing whippits from a can of whip cream to snorting volcanic gas.
@@loverlei79 "the other one will give you lung cancer and kill you if you breathe it in" Radon won't immediately kill you, it's a long game situation. Short exposures (like going into a granite cave or an unventilated cellar) won't do much, but prolonged, repeated contact is definitely going to start tinkering with cancer rates in the long term.
Further more, though perhaps as an aside, any radon trapped in your body will decay into lead (radioactive lead, but with a hl of 22 years, chemically it doesn't matter). Again, tiny amounts, but over time that kind of thing can add up.
@@ValleysOfRain yes, but radon is already the second cause of lungs cancer after smoking and this should ring a bell about the safety of adding up this treatment to the natural exposure
@@loverlei79 X-ray radiation isn't "safe". The exposure is just short when you get a x-ray. In fact, the Securitate in Romania exposed mining union leaders to x-rays to cause premature deaths. So again, the dosage is what makes the poison.
As someone who is suffering from chronic pain this is incredibly tempting to me. I just worry about A: the price and B: whether my specific type of chronic pain is the type they claim to treat
If you could, maybe move to a house where there are plenty of radon? Could be cheaper than old one and pocket the rest. I don't know just thinking out loud.
Been a while since I clicked on one of your videos, it's refreshing. it's balenced and to the point
As a german, I knew this *used* to be a thing, between the discovery and radiation and WWII there was an obsession with Radon for health production, famously including "Radon chocolate" which was even printed in my history book. Didnt know they still did these though.
Did you mean Radon or Radium?
@@meloney Technically both. The radon that radium naturally produces as it breaks down (called "emanations" back then) was thought to have all sorts of curative powers by quack doctors. This led to a lot of devices which housed radium that people could insert into their water to make it "Radio-active", usually through the production of radon gas within the water.
The science on this is obviously questionable at best, and the amount of radon gas that would escape from these products and pollute the air around them regardless back in the day wouldn't have been ideal.
Radium Emanation Bath salts were also a thing
This is a brilliant video. As an engineer working in research, this is exactly how these things should be divulged, handled, and decided upon. Thank you, Tom.
This video was just great! So interesting and objective and straight to the point. I would love to see an update video when a study was done :)
I love your videos!! just information that is kinda out of nowhere but so fricking interesting and needed. I hope the do the trailllll!
In my 10 years of working with reactors, Iâve not in that entire time picked up 2.2mSv.
I mean 2.2mSv isnât a lot anyway, but still, it makes me laugh that people think reactors spew radiation everywhere when you can literally go and pay to have a bigger dose as a member of the public
Just like the amount of radiation you're exposed to when going on a plane and the average person doesn't really understand. Nuclear fission reactors are by far the safest form of conventional energy.
@@MartynMc would have been better to keep fission and remove coal and gas etc but big problem with fission is if something goes wrong its big and Nuclear waste where no one really knows where to put it
@@abyssmoon6940 That is true. I think even with the two incidients that have happened in the past the fatalities have still been far less than coal or gas. I think the only real problem is like you have said, the waste and where to put it.
until its expodes ore the waste stirage becomes leaky or steam needs to be vented....
@@MartynMc Yes, you're correct. Even with Fukushima and Chernobyl nuclear plants killed much fewer people than fossil fuels by far! Coal is the most lethal source of energy, but it kills slowly and gradually while nuclear plants need to have accidents to kill a lot of people.
Skepticism is a sharp tool we use to carve the truth out of simple wishful thinking - Skepticism should not be used as a shield to hide from scientific progress.
I think this was one of your best videos, and a truly honest discussion, into a possible and reasonable medical therapy.
Nicely done Mate...!!
I LOVE THIS! Awesome video, awesome summary of the information, RCTs, IRBs, love it all, LOVE. Why is their only one upvote.
Fun fact:
In Denmark we have building regulations for buildings housing people. The foundation must have a layer thats blocking Radon.
"The warning signs of quackery are: bold claims of miracle cures: single interventions that seem to help wildly different conditions, or explanations that defy three laws of physics". That's a great definition
Really well balanced approach to a non-proven but also minimally harmful therapy. A significant portion of medical training is about teaching people to think like you have here (ie, weighing up risks/harms of treatment options vs the potential benefits).
And just another fantastic Tom Scott video to make the day. Fascinating. Cheers Tom :)
"More Studies Are Required" shouldn't be a weak ending. It's the only scientific ending there is. No true scientist ever says "Alright, it's all solved now. Time to go home." There's always another question, another lead, and another study.
Except with climate change. The science is 100% settled on that one, yes sir.
based
Mathematicians would like to disagree (: