Horus Heresy 11: FALLEN ANGELS by Mike Lee! | Warhammer Book Club
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
- It's time to continue the saga of the Dark Angels in two totally unrelated novels, both stitched together in Fallen Angels
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Watch Mira's interview with Mike Lee here: • Let's Talk...Fallen An...
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Ian and Mira at Istvan. Shaka when the virus bombs fell.
Mira did manage Mike Lee for an interview, over on her channel.
@tomhathaway2556 The erstwhile Mr. Lee seems a little baffled in the interview. Could be just my flawed conception though....
Perhaps "Comprehension" is perhaps the word I was actually going for. Conception suggests I am about to give birth to many tiny little Mike Lees....
@@happyharibo1330 No, he doesn't.
@defdaz I am, as previously mentioned, open to the possibility that I am mistaken. So long as this does not mean I indeed AM about to give birth to many tiny little Mike Lees. Hopefully, that will not interfere with my job interview tomorrow... especially as they leap out of my belly during said interview....
Mike Lee NOT Spike Lee. Who IS Spike Lee?
Bastard Scale Update!
Lucius: 27
Fabius: "blown up the scale"/contested by Ian
Erebus: 12
Bequa: 9
Fulgrim: 8.5
Kelbor Hal: 8.5
Terran colonizers of Caliban: 8
Wsoric the Demon: 8
The Lion: (9/6) 7.5
Remaire: 7
Brynngar Sturmdreng: 7
Julius EC: 6
Khorneban Machine: 6
Koriel Zeth: 6
Zadkiel: 5.5
Marius EC: 5.5
Solomon EC: 3
Unification Wars Emperor: 3
Everyone else in Descent of Angels: 3
Valdor: 1
Iacton Cruze: 1
Thanks for remembering to specify the numbers! Love you guys!❤
First Perturabo appearance hype!!! Unironically
28:13 Arbitor Ian, when the popculture reference failed to land
Not a ST TNG fan perhaps. Stopped watching when Wesley left.
Is it bad that I was about to reply with a 'Darmok' ref before I checked the replies and realized it was redundant?
@@vdate Nope. Reading the comments can take as long as watching the vid.
After a few hours and lots of comments. its a safe bet that at least one person will have said whatever joke was to be made.
Pop Culture references are like Badgers. They are at times elusive and can turn on you when cornered. i think. opps, Metafor fatigue is kicking in.....
My favorite scene in this book is the one where Nemiel is talking to Johnson and he realizes that, since Johnson was raised in the woods, he has no idea how to actually relate to and understand people. From the book:
"[Nemiel] also wondered if Lion El’Jonson, the superhuman son of the Emperor himself, could not relate to the people around him. He could predict how they would behave on the battlefield to an uncanny degree, but he couldn’t tell an honourable man from a craven one. Are we all ciphers to him, the Redemptor wondered? If Jonson had so little in common with humanity, what did that make him?"
I like the motif in these books that the primarchs and the Emperor, even though they are trying to defend and guide humans, often lack the ability to understand humans.
"woo woo legions". Mira, youve killed me haha 🤣
Seem to me that the bastard scale should run on a measure of “from one to Erebus”
Second that
@@Zachfive I love to hate Erebus, any good fiction property need a magnificent bastard.
Literally just finished work (wfh) and sat down to unwind and am presented with Ian and Mira book club - delightful!
Psyched for the First Heretic recap, incredible book!
Yay! More HH Book Club to keep me company while I work on my designs for 40K inspired guitar pedals for my 40K themed band.
31:40 I imagined the siege guns were about 2 Baneblades wide and 3 long based one how the tracks are described in the book. Would make an awesome Epic Scale model
Getting a light Matt Berry vibe from Ian's AI 40k lore voice.
To Ian's griping about "Warp Juice" on Caliban, I kind of think Mr. Lee had to do something along those lines because, at least since 2nd Ed. 40k (and maybe earlier), the beasts on Caliban were Chaos tainted, maybe even Chaos Spawn, so he had to do something to explain why Caliban was a Chaos Monster Death World(TM) as opposed to Catachan, which is a Xenos Monster Death World(TM).
I do think it would have been interesting to make Lorax Luther, though!
I remember reading once - and probably from an old DA codex entry - that 'the last fight against Chaos would happen at Caliban'. I don't think it was hinting at Chaos being defeated there or anything as grand, but I think its been a while since Caliban was meant to be tainted by chaos. Also in the first book we get a hint at things being off since no two beast were alike (except for the Caliabnite Lion Jonson and Zahariel both slained).
Glad mira got to interview mike leee in the end
Mr Lee seemed a little dazed and confused in said interview...
Chockablock! That was a weird '80s kid's show. I found it quite dystopian watching it on you tube as an adult... A lone tech turns up in a subterranean vault. Checks in, communes with a large sentient machine through childlike imperfect means. Checks out. Drives little buggy out of vault leaving the sinister machine to brood over new intel.
I have decided that I will use Chockablock (The '80s kids TV show) as a basis for an Adeptus Mechanicus Novella!
Nemiel better be careful he doesn't lose his head when he's dealing with the Lion...
Probably still the dumbest scene to imagine in all of HH...
There are a few Warhammer channels where the person has an almost AI sounding voice and people comment on it all the time it's so funny.
Also Lion isn't just a weirdo he is full on autistic to a superhuman level and everything he does viewed through that lens makes so much sense. Can relate.
28:10 Tenagra is the famous hangout of Darmok and Jalad. Shaka is the one associated with falling walls.
Perfect timing to get me through scraping grout out of my kitchen floor!
I really enjoyed that Star Trek joke where the walls fell more than I probably should have 😅
Mira needs to read the short story "the Lion" next, she really needs it because of the important things that happen in it...
@@6dragondaddy913 Lionel Richey dancing on the ceiling!
@@happyharibo1330 Nemiel sure is stubborn, but you can't say HEADstrong...
Woo! Woo! Wibbley woos! I lke these words. I want this Parlance for the next Dan Abnett Novel!
Can’t wait to see the end and the death review in 15 years
I remember feeling the way Ian does about "not needing the warp" for the conflict, way back in 2003 reading "Firewarrior". Kais seeing the cracks in the supposedly utopian Tau society and leadership, only for the reveal to be, "surprise - Chaos did it!" really disappointed me as ...a high school junior...oof. Anyway, it just felt cheap and easy, when I remember the book feeling like it had earned a more genuine ending about the Tau beginning to see their empire for what it was.
One of the major problems with the Black Library is that many of their authors do not appear to recognize that, even before the Heresy happened, the Imperium is a nightmarish, militaristic, despotic dystopia ruled by an insane megalomaniacal tyrant supported by a decidedly Nazi-sounding race of genetically engineered ubermensch, and that this is in fact a Bad Thing in itself. This is particularly a problem in the 40k books, where many of the writing team don't want to say that people might turn against the Imperial regime just because it happens to be truly awful, rather than because a three-eyed tentacle monster from Hell promised them power.
Ian is disturbingly good at the AI voice!
Yes holy crap, I love this podcast, I have listened to so many old videos waiting for this
Yay another HH book club !
Damarr, with his arms wide open
“If you’re a Dark Angels fan this is your heritage.” I actually laughed out loud at that. It’s definitely something uncomfortably close to my heritage at the least.
Yes to Merch.
Next dark angels stories are “savage weapons” in book 16 and “the Lion” in book 20
If Mira wants to warm with the Lion, the dark angels in general, or just read a very good DA book, I'd strongly recommend her "The Lion: Son of the Forest" by Mike Brooks which I think is pretty amazing.
28:09 real-life darmok and jalad moment
Shaka, her ears closed.
(In star trek alien voice) Mira, unaware of the meme
Everybody is stealing each others' jeans? JEANSTEALERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@@6dragondaddy913 Gene Jacket!
Swampy was awesome! Possibly is awesome. Wikipedia last reported him as living in North Wales with his partner and family and doing academia or somesuch....
I was wrong about the academia. He became a park Ranger.
I'm at chapter 17 and was wondering when you guys would get here, gotta get my finger out and finish this.
For the record, Warp Tea would be the best you ever had.
I was going to say "I wonder if the "look, Chaos did it!" elements were part of the whole "we don't really want to engage with how awful the Imperium is" thread that was running through the fanbase for quite a while - sort of like how the bad guys in the Master and Commander movie were changed to be French instead of Americans to avoid alienating the audience." But there's another comment down below noting that the 2E fluff described the Dark Angels as teetering on the brink of Chaos, so maybe Mike Lee was aware of that?
403rd like...which is probably a win
Sometimes I wonder if Ian's meta-analysis of the books is to the detriment of his enjoyment of the material?
I agree! I went into HH blind, only knowing the major plot points and how things generally shake out during the siege. Fallen Angels is definitely near the bottom of the series in terms of pacing plot and quality, but knowing very indepth and esoteric 40k lore would probably taint one's view of it even further.
For this reason I'm sure he doesn't like Nemesis at all, even though it's a fun and well written book.
I wonder that sometimes myself too. Its fun to really sink into the lore but then I think it's also wise to keep it in perspective
Nah! He seems to be having fun!
How I'd have done it:
Luther is grievously wounded, and the Lion sends him back to Caliban to "oversee the new generation and ensure our ways endure".
Luthor returns with Zahariel and his inner circle and it plays out as you two mentioned with a sense of abandonment and resentment with how the imperium is governing Caliban. Have all the cloak and dagger be about the legion subverting the imperial contingent in charge.
You can have the knights of lupus library stuff as the subplot that leads to Luther's entanglement with Chaos and maybe discovering the origin of the beasts and what have you.
If you want inter legionary intrigue, i would have have a plot in which a traitor contingent is sent to scout out Luther's allegiances for possible recruitment. They then find out their kinda on their own side planning on couping Caliban and are promptly uno-reverse spied and the dark angles are like "so tell us everything you know about this chaos lark". Finish on spooky pull back shot with watchers in the dark watching on mysteriously.
Anyhow, that's enough fanficing from me for one day.
If my name was Lion l'Johnson I would be on the Bastard Scale too. Poor old Lionel Ritchy.....
I enjoy this book because of how the DA are during the Unremembered Empire arc. The investigation on Caliban is a lot of fun and actually I never really considered Ian's point about everything being tied back into the Warp being a kind of boring outcome. I kind of do agree it would have been interesting if it was just a political dispute which led to an uprising. I have in hindsight really come to like this book for how it handles the material/characters from Descent of Angels compared to future installments. If I am just salty you can say so and I will get off my high destrier.
As a Dark Angel Player I agree ... LoL, honestly I hate HH Lion, but 40K Lion as written by Mike Brooks in Son of the Forest is my favorite character, probably going to read that book again, for the 3rd time soon
great interview mira!
Loved this!!! More videos like this please
Huzzah for merch!
I think Dark Angels get better after Dreadwing. I have wondered fir a while if the earlier books were trying to come up with a more satisfying justification for Luther and Co remaining on Caliban than simply following the Arthurian fall of Camelot and no one really agreeing on what that should be.
Like in Descent of Angels your reading /could/ be that the Lion has just come face to face with his mortality so sends his best back to Caliban as a back up (a thread Gav picks up later on). In Fallen Angels you could charitably interpret the exile as a means of preserving the legion and Caliban from Chaos. But it gets murkier with every book.
The Warmaster thing also feels really out of character and seemingly gets if not retconned at least rethought later on.
In will say, there is a slight sense of irony I enjoy when I hear 2 people with British accents decry colonization and the ramifications of it.
Absolutely love the tea time segments tho. Maybe look into getting a sponsor?
The Warhammer youtuber Bricky has his own merch company and does merch for streamers and youtubers, maybe contact him :)
Luther, when the Angels fell.
Anyone else a Peep Show fan? Every time I heard 'Johnson', I was thinking about Consultio/Consultium.
Thousand Sons and First heretic coming up...they're getting into the good part of the heresy series!
As a grumpy 2E grognard for whom Codex Imperialis will always be the true vision of 40K; I have a... 28 year old grumble that isn't this book's fault but ties into the core story of the Dark Angels.
Honestly, I think 2E Codex: Angels of Death (1996) missed a more interesting opportunity when they introduced the story of Luther and the destruction of Caliban.
What was hinted in the 2E Codex Imperialis (1993) before this was codified:
"Of the Battle Brothers of the Dark Angels history cannot speak, for there are no records of the Dark Chapter’s beginnings, of their part in the Great Crusade, or of their deeds during the terrible wars of the Horus Heresy. Only the legend persists-the legend that once the Dark Angels teetered upon the brink of Chaos, that foul betrayal besmirched the Chapter’s valour and made vain all acts of former virtue. Yet they returned to the fold of the Emperor’s love and tore themselves from the very bosom of temptation. Perhaps they sought the Emperor’s pardon too late, for ever since they have borne the Mark of the Unforgiven. Can ten thousand years of purgatory absolve those to whom every battle is redemption? Can it be the lost souls of the slain that clamour for the absolution that victory brings?"
Makes it sound far less clear cut and spicy.
I rather wish that the Lion *did* have more divided loyalties during the Heresy and only swung back as a Loyalist Faction at the very end.
We have this "a bit" with Jaghatai Khan but his destiny was always to be one of the three Legions on Terra.
In less grumbling note, am hyped for First Heretic!
the audio has gotten better
We need to get Ian & Mira’s opinion on ‘Angels of Darkness’.
I think it’s a much more compelling story to have the Fallen be loyal, but through Imperial propaganda, they became traitors.
As a Black Templar player, can confirm we are the worst.
Auspex Tactics sells his merch via Wargame Portal Ian - not sure if that would be an option for you.
Shaka: Where the Walls Fell haha
Ian dissing Jay from Eons Of Battle's favourite chapter?! I'd love to see them throwing down in game.
Game and lore are two different things. Dark Angel's are cool on the gaming table. Especially Raven Wing. But in the Lore/Backstory they don't come off too well. Especially the HH novels. The same as you can play Tyranids in the game but you would not want to BE them. Or have them round for a party!
@@happyharibo1330 For me "not coming off well in the lore" describes ever faction in 40k 😄👍
@euansmith3699 I cannot fault that...
next DK book is Angels of Caliban, which is like, 20 books away..
8:45 love the AI voice 🤣👌🤘
Hello guys!
Technical question for you, before I forget: what mics are you using? Kimafun? You sound really clearly and I would like too when discording halfway around the globe, heh.
I liked the vid, ss always, as I have given up on reading Horus Hrresy books after some 11ish of them and it's nice to hear about them again :)
Picard and Daython at El Adril
Would an ArbitorIan intern eventually get tasked with bringing Ian down when he goes rogue, or would the intern be the one to get possessed by a daemon? Only good things can happen with this plan.
@@mattburgess1957 Mira! You are in grave Danger!!!
Tea club 🫖 ❤
I’m trying so hard to care about the dark angels but its hard
As a Dark Angels (30k) and Black Templar (40k) player I completely agree. We are terrible people.
Wait, “We heard he was man from south wales, so he has two guns.” Yeah sounds about right.😁
Give us the T-shirts Ian, the people demand T-shirts.
The Angels have fallen, and they can't get up.
Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra
Not all of the Primarchs are bad dads. Vulkan, Corvus, Sanguinnius, the Khan, Russ, Magnus (look what he refuses just to save his sons), Dorn, Guilliman and really weirdly Mortarion (look at what actually makes him fall to Nurgle) are all pretty good "dads". Alpharius/Omegon are "good" "dads"?
@6dragondaddy913 Jim Collins of the 2nd Legion was the nicest of the Primarchs. He gave each of his Marines a pink fluffy blanket and cuddly hippo which made farty noices. He did however put a flamer to any battle brother who misplaced his Farty Hippo but nobody is perfect and some standards must be maintained....
Spoiler Alert: Mike Lee exists and Mira got him to show up on her channel :D
Am I completely misremembering treachery an a banquet/feast in one of these DA books?
Maybe thinking of Know No Fear? That one WB was explaining the power of betrayal to his UM buddy.
Lionel is the Primarch most like the Big E. A military genius, incredible warrior. Utterly incapable of actualy understanding anybody else. Absolutely everyone and everything are just cogs in his plans. The idea that those cogs might have their own plans and emotions is utterly beyond them both. Bloody awful dads the pair of 'em.
As a loyal Dark Angels (and Black Templars) fan / collector, I agree with Ian that none of the Black Library books have done them justice. If only Aaron Dembski-Bowden had written the Dark Angels books.
I'm personally hoping for Chris Wraight... he made me even like Space Wolves characters. Aaron Dembski's DA in the short story telling the meeting between Jonson and Batman didn't had the most consistent DA portrayal.
Overall DA desperately need a consistent writer. As much as I love them, their books have been too much all over the place. As if GW has no clue where they want them to land and are just pushing the grimdumb with the chapter and legion. Maybe Brooks might make the Son of the Forest Lion work, but I rather have Wraight who stated the DA are the legion that intrigues him the most.
One for the algo - for some reason I didn’t see this!
The big guns show up again in a short story about the Iron Warriors being ridiculous idiots. Which unfortunately seems to be their entire purpose for existing in the lore.
I think Luther should be getting more love from the Dark Angels and makes Lionel jealous as he lost to Horus also should be Alpha legion Cabal & the houses of Caliban help fracture the Dark Angels and destroy Caliban
Oroborus sounds a LOT like Erebus tho... I mean... especially when you guys say it...
Not wearing my glasses righht now and read the book tite on the thumbnail as 'Fallen Incels'
Maybe also correct?
You guys have a certain synergy. Like Burns and Allen. And if you get that reference you’re older than you look.
@@earnestwanderer2471 They are. Lucky buggers. It's the Juvinat they get free from GW!!!
Lion O'Johnson! Thundercat or Irish Pub Landlord?
I remember back in the 90s, when what we had was Codex Angels of Darkness, Codex Chaos, and the 40k-List, we had the fantheory that what had actually happened was that the Lion and the "loyalist" Dark Angels were the ones that actually fell to Chaos, and Luther and the ones banished to Caliban stayed loyal to the Emperor. This would be the dark secret that the Dark Angels were holding close at hand - that they were upholding the air of being part of the Imperium, but really working for the ruinous powers. Cypher was the top hunted as he held proof and was on his way to bring it to Terra. (and it was not *Luther's* regret that stopped the fight, but the *Lion's*, who suddenly realized what he'd done and been doing)
I think that would have been much more interesting, but holding up the 40k Dark Angels' story of things as the way it happened is fine.
I like that That’s a lot more tragic,
I had a theory before as well that it was actually Horus on the throne, he ended up being the object of worship he initially wanted to prevent, the emperors body was too damaged
So they took his unwilling body and imprisoned him on there to power the throne
But that one was proved wrong apparently
I think that 40k is much more Catholic than Protestant, so it makes sense Luther is a bad guy unfortunately
WARHAMMERCH!
So, Dreadnoughts are RoboCop...would that mean Chaos Dreadnoughts are ED-209? 😉
Darmok, his arms wide open
HH for the next fffffffourty or so years
The “squad-level” action in the book is quite good - the two different environments have some contrast - but as a Dark Angels fan since 2nd Ed the HH series has been a bit of a let-down
The Problem with the first DA novels in the Heresy, is they gave the job of kicking off the Dark Angels story line, to 2 different writers who have barely written anything for warhammer before.
The Descent of Angels Author - Mitchel Scanlon, has written one other 40K novel, and 4 short stories.
Fallen Angels Author - Mike Lee, has written one other Novel, a Novella and about 6 short stories.
Combined they've written a total of 4 Novels, including the first two Dark Angel novels in the Heresy.
I actually think Descent of Angels was quite good, but Fallen Angels just does a bunch of weird stuff and gives an awful depiction of the Lion's personality.
And then the Short Stories go on to make things a whole lot messier with no consistent authors to write them, and occasionally awful decisions made like the pointless Death of a Character i wont spoil, but for those who know, it's so stupid, the killer himself, doesnt even understand why he killed the character, a character who had so much potential, only to be wasted for a cheap revenge plot we have yet to see realized.
So overall, the foundations of their story were set by authors that had never written Dark Angels before, and had barely written anything for 40K, and from then on, almost every story featuring the Lion and the Dark Angels, is written by a completely different author, with their own ideas and styles.
Theres a very god video that actually highlights this same problem with Perturabo in a video called Understanding And Rewriting: Perturabo by Cyo The Adventurer.
As pointed out in that video, depictions of Perturabo give him 3 completely different, and often contradictory personalities.
In one book, he appreciates and respects someone with a better plan than him, and in another book, he spitefully lashes out when someone sculpts a better statue than him.
Oh thank the emperor book club has returned!
Cloud Runner, Weasel Fierce, Lame Bear and Two-Heads Talking disagree with you Ian ;)
Need to get a Squarespace
Boo! Hiss! Leave the DA's alone, Ian, you bully
my rating 3/5 the next one thousand sons 4/5 and then nemesis 5/5 before it falls (3 means i stopped reading for several days without caring 4 never for more than 24hrs and 5 is i can't stop reading to know more) pretty much everytime badass space marines are the main feature it's bad as they keep making the worst decisions constantly constantly "subverting your expectation" of them being smart I'm happy you mentioned the mcguffin thing because the overuse of that, bad writing to be perfectly honest made me stop reading the heresy for a while I'll go back to it after my current d&d drizzt book passage to dawn
Dark Angels players are the best, space wolves players are the worst. lol
The writing for The Lion is awful in the Heresy, he's just so one dimensional and a complete moron despite we're regularly told he's one of the greatest tactical minds of the Imperium. How did a guy who is utterly incapable of even remotely relating to anyone manage to organise, gather, and lead a crusade to effectively tame a warp-tainted death world. Awful writing. At least Son of the Forest has made him a much more mellowed out deadbeat dad.
they are all complete morons which honestly after 33 books became tiring so I went back the legend of drizzt, know no fear the ultramarines book was unreadable it's disney the acolyte bad writing level this far one of my favorite character would be Kharn and his interaction with the word bearer, he understand what's going on and realize he can't fight it which is more than almost everyone else does, all my favorite stories are human or mechanicum centered they make more sense, while space marines are constantly goofing up when they shouldn't or using mcguffins and rewriting to somehow make sense
Son of the Forest Lion is definitely listening to Walk by Foo Fighters for the length of that novel.
@@briochepanda haha amazing.