Unveiling the Movement Phase in Warhammer The Old World: What You Need to Know | Square Based
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- čas přidán 9. 11. 2023
- Val and Rob review the latest reveals about the movement phase in Warhammer the Old World and speculate about the latest news and rumors.
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#podcast #warhammer #warhammertheoldworld #warhammerfantasy #warhammercommunity #squarebassed #theoldworld
Thanks so much for all the support on the first video. Hope you enjoy this pre-weekend drop! From here on out we'll be on a regular release pace on Tuesdays. Like and comment, subscribe, TELL YOUR SQUARE BASED FRIENDS. WE ARE HERE TO DANCE LIKE MONKEYS FOR YOU.
God if this ends up being even half of what it seems like it's going to be it will unironically be the strongest game system GW has out at the moment which is real fucking weird to say but I'm here for it.
Right??
It will be the most antiquated. The movement phase alone is love it or hate it.
Outro: Take care and stay square !
I guess we really have married ourselves to square based references haven't we
Are you on the square?
Are you on the level?
Are you ready to swear right here, right now
Before the devil
That you're on the square
That you're on the level
That you're ready to stand right here, right now
Right here, right now
fade to the Fatboy Slim track
Square Hammer does seem like the ideal theme song for the show.
Need a CZcams short with the first failed intro where Rob said welcome to The Honest Wargamer.
Working on some shawtys is in my job description
My favorite is when Val hits the wrong sound effect ;)
It appears that having to use a wheel maneuver will be a natural hazard for larger frontage units, so that hordes aren’t so overpowered like they were in 8th edition. Yeah having a ten wide unit is great, but it painful to make turns. This will help make small mounted units more maneuverable, and large blocks of spearmen unwieldy but sturdy. That makes sense to me.
It really feels right. However I think the truly OP thing in 8th was the bus formation due to steadfast. Which is also eliminated by these rules.
The wheeling thing was already a problem for 10 wide horde formations
Agreed to this, it seems as a way to balance out large blocks of units and make the game less focused on them
So, the old style Bret wedge might be to distinguish that formation from a marching formation (as the 6th Ed formation is the same as the marching one). Although the wedge looked good, it was a pain for the reasons you said so it will be interesting to see the full interaction.
I also have a small worry about the marching column and the ability of unbreakable units, such as slayers or flagellants, to abuse it, as they potentially won’t care about rank bonuses. Hopefully there will be a minimum width or the rules around how wounding champions and wounds carrying over to units are amended. The days of the slayer dart should be numbered!
Usually I scoff at pre-release consternation about rules interactions... but the unbreakable marching column is an interesting call out! Though I guess no matter what they ARE restricted by not being able to charge... however a dart of unbreakable duders getting right up in your opponents face sure seems like a quality chaff option.
@@SquareBasedOldWorldcompletely but it was just something that popped in my head. The more they release the more excited I am for the game. And I’m an old Gronard though I’ve been playing since 3rd so perhaps more open to change than some considering the number of editions played!
Love it guys. Our little community is super hyped.
I hope that they too are #squarebassed
I tink you need wheeling to count towards your movement to keep wide units under control. Its similar but not exactly like how KOW does it, where 2 regiments that are the same width as a horde can charge the horde at max distance but cant be charged back. Same general concept.
I've almost made it to old world without learning kings of war and by golly I'm not about to stop being ignorant now
@@SquareBasedOldWorld seeing a lot of inspiration in this ruleset coming from there. Feels like the writers pulled from every rank and flanks game available.
Yes I fully agree. FINE I'll read Warhammer ancients AND kings
Great chat! Can’t wait till the next one.
You are insatiable
@@SquareBasedOldWorld😂 I’ll go and have a cold shower
29:54 Fun fact, "standing on the shoulders of giants" is a saying from the medieval period! Cheers Dr. Eleanor Janega! Old World let's goooooooooooo #squarebassed
I am unfamiliar with Dr Janega's work but she seems bassed af
@@SquareBasedOldWorld Oh she's the best! Modern History TV just did a fantastic podcast with her about medieval misconceptions, good background for a lil' slapchoppin'
Onnit!
This is my favorite Marxist podcast
The players have nothing to lose but their rounds
just started it but I really hope we get into geopolitical theory again! #squarebased
I'm new... Is this a joke? 😊
I'm just here to seize the means of production and #squarebass
@@LordBilliam lol yeah, a few episodes back Rob and Van went off on a surprisingly informed tangent on politics and economic theory (a few times actually?)
Thanks, Guys. It was a good listen.
Pleasure was all ours
I feel like countercharge is going to be a charge reaction for certain units that is like: if unit has not marched previous turn they can pass a discipline test, if passed move countercharging unit tray to meet charging unit tray halfway distance wise (and both units get their charging bonuses).
Currently delving into the Warhammer Ancients rules to see if such a thing exists there. I'll report back next week.
Loving this podcast from you guys. I've been enjoying listening to you guys painting the remainder of my Tomb Kings army that's been sitting in a box in storage for nearly a decade.
Interesting point about accounting for wheels in the charge distance. I'm wondering if it's a design decision to encourage players to strike a balance between narrower vs wider formations. It seems like the narrower frontages for marching column are designed for better manouvrability and in the case where two units are stood off at an angle, the one with the narrower frontage has the better chance at getting off a charge all else being the same.
It better reflects reality that a narrower formation can move into combat with better ease than a big wide formation.
That said, I agree that the priority on the rules should be minimising disagreements so as to maximise pleasant play experiences. There will need to be a fair bit of faff pre measuring distances so you can agree with your oppenent, "I'm stopping x distance from your unit so you will need to roll y to make the charge on your turn considering the wheel.
All said it seems like there is going to be a lot more tactical choice left to the player in sizing their frontages trading off combat benefits against manouvrability. Maybe I can put my skelleton warriors in narrow formation to get them up the board and bogging down the enemy quicker at the cost of more wounds lost due to comabat res and crumble. It's nice to have this tacrical option available instead of just running a 10 wide horde formation by default.
It's all looking good so far!
They removed the free wheel as there could be some circumstances where some really ridiculous charges could be made as you just measured closest point to closest point (like moving and wheeling past an entire unit to get to one behind it). To simplify it they could have just have done a straight line measure from the furthest corner of the charging unit. It would have added that extra bit of distance.
Val had a really good thought on redressing the ranks, In an early post they talked about push backs and in the current one they talk about units ‘redressing the ranks’. I wonder if a push back might make a unit disordered (perhaps losing rank bonus?) and the ability to redress the ranks would be the unit getting back it’s coherency? Sorry to rules speculate but just really excited for this!
If it wasn't ok to rules speculate we wouldn't have a show
that's a really good idea, measuring from the farthest point - or even just the middle of the unit (front rank) would be simple and 'averagely' fair
"Remember, if it's not square you can't compare."
Go on! Really like the content.
You guys saved ToW for me 3-5 months ago.
I started playing back in 6th and on until The End Times and feel like the previewed rules so far are a nice blend of most eras. The 6th Edition or die crowd will always clutch their pearls with any changes outside of their small box, and no matter what those 10 people will stay playing their dead game. I'm all for change and inovation, the future is looking bright.
Val killing it in the intro as usual!
I quite enjoy listening to you guys and what you have to say, but, wait for it, I'm a 6th ed player and believe it or not we're not all 'insufferable'. I am aware of the people you are referring to and they are killjoys.
These sorts of videos/podcasts give me something to listen to while I hobby or work which is fantastic, thanks for putting it all together.
Anyway, I'm not sure the old world will be for me, but I'm happy for those that are excited about it. I was really excited when it was first announcned and I have become a bit of a fence sitter once more information was announced.
The way I'm looking at it now is that if i don't play the old world I will still have access to old kits without paying 3 kidneys (I know the old kits dont excite you guys).
Anyway, thanks again for the content, still keen to listen to your upcoming casts.
It's a can't lose proposition. Though I imagine you'll like the edition given your background.
And you seem quite sufferable. You are a fine example to your people
Regarding 'Redress the ranks' i really hope it ties in to regiments becoming disorganized by certain effects and actions. Maybe marching in combat column have a chance to disorganize? Maybe shooting (by closed order regiments) will have a 'drive back' mechanic as in Warmaster and you can disorganize and push back regiments, making ranged units control parts of the battlefield.
Very interesting so far to hear how the rules are turning up to be and i think you two are doing a fantastic job so far in how you approach the hype!
I love how they're just dropping the names of these mechanics and we're all full on mystery box about them.
I feel the marching column is more to penalize the deeper than wide regiments (with an added movement bonus) than being just a bonus movement formation :)
I could see that... Until we see units that can still do quarter turns out of a marching column lol
Maybe you can explain better here, but by my math, a flat 2d6 charge averages a 7, where a d6+movement averages up to 9 like you mentioned. I dont see how having further average charge ranges increases the movement size of the board as they are more likely to be in range to charge.
8th edition was 2d6+movement. So the thread range of a human unit would be 16 (12+4) ... Unlikely at max range but certainly not impossible and occasionally swings games.
In the old world system the same scenario gives a human unit a potential charge range of 10" (6+4). So in my mind if two human regiments are facing off against one another, there's now an extra foot of space for manoeuvre.
Add to this that the potential charge range for cav remains the same (3d6 drop the lowest) as if was in 8th, and you also give a significant reach advantage to cav, that they simply didn't have in 8th. Which is particularly cool.
@@SquareBasedOldWorld so the comparison is more apt between fantasy battles and ow. I was coming from my comp AoS mindset, thank you!
Of course!
Norsca in WAP has Counter Charge special rule. Maybe close to that.
If charged at the front. Ld test. If passed they move first 2D3" forwards but obviously stopping 1" away from the enemy. Then the enemy rolls its distance and tries to complete the charge. Both units get the charge bonuses if they meet.
That is spicy. I like it - saw @return to the old world speculating on this in his video too.
czcams.com/video/_Cf2H8dCLEw/video.html
Cool and useful.
Luv this thing that you do
Love you
Rank and file, let’s goooooo!
Delighted to have found this podcast, have tried a tonne re The Old World and this is definitely the best. Looking forward to more as and when GW drop the next updates.
One thing the podcast probably doesn’t need is the ‘my opinion is right, you’re an idiot’ chat. I’m thinking of the pre-measuring section here. Seems to cheapen an otherwise informed, well polished and fun podcast.
Is our being informed, fun and polished mutually exclusive to your being COMPLETELY WRONG? ; )
Thanks for the kind words. I hope you'll stick with us through differences of opinion. It'd be no fun if we agreed on everything
Ha ha, no difference of opinion here, I’ve played both versions (guessing/measuring) for over 30 years and they’re both fun but I’m probably more in the measuring camp than the other.
building beastmen as I watch this in anticipation
Beastmen are one of the only armies missing from my shelves. Perhaps the braying horde will intrigue me more when the new game drops?
@@SquareBasedOldWorld I've wanted a decent army book for them for years. I'm hoping we get it finally! a lot of old 6th Ed stuff too
Im excited because of this podcast! Love listening to the two of you, dont care for the game just your discussions about it!
Now that's very square based of you
QUESTION: if one was to "bang down flip it and reverse it" how many 1/4rs of movement is that?
depends on whether or not we had the chance to shave our chacha
We might need to take a page from warmahordes and get some proxy bases to figure out distances.
There is some hope that having a musician might make wheeling easier
I like one of the suggestions in the comments: measure closest corner to furthest corner of the charging unit
Redress the ranks is likely widen or narrow the unit frontage. So you can maybe spend quarter of your movement per one rank/file added/deducted. If you could march and do that, then it helps a lot of movement in the game, but too bad it looks like you can't, so you still won't see that happening much...
That is a super keen point to make! Also they conspicuously did not mention reform mechanics so maybe it's a fully new approach (or very old approach from a different game.)
I don't mind guess measure weapons - but then I played from 4th ed onwards - but I kind of don't get the reasoning. I'm meant to be the general or animating force behind the army or whatever - point being, I'm not shooting the weapons, so why am I estimating ranges? I get that is a part of how a cannon or catapult or whatever would work, but that's the crew's job? You don't as the player recite from a scroll of arcane syllables or do a tongue twister to see whether the wizard miscasts his spell - you just roll dice.
I think it's a fun thing for sure but better for the game without it
@@SquareBasedOldWorld very much so, yeah!
Macedonian cavalry I think could counter charge in WAncient Battles
The WABos as I will now call them have been feeding me rules. I'll be ready with the hottest takes and wild speculation for the next show.
I believe that generally speaking the idea will be that the game is balanced so that you're incentivized to have "square" formations so that the difference between a Combat order and a Marching order is moving one rank/file.
We're going to talk about open vs closed order and how it was used in Warhammer Ancients on the next show.
Woohoo!
#squarebassed
keep it up guys! obligatory CZcams comment XD
Damn, most of the way through this one when the shooting phase article dropped. It was a fun dream, but if they've kept modifiers on shooting, I'm out
You'll be back.
@@SquareBasedOldWorld obviously, damn you
Enjoyed the chat. Well informed & experience Wgamer came across well. Came across you fellas from AUS Old world fanatic’s podcast.
Warhammer Ancient Battles was a fantastic set of rules/ campaigns. Lovely to see stuff from WAB & 3rd edition mechanics given a nod.
Lore wise the new setting will keep puritans & heretics @ balance…that said many of us don’t know this “End Times” of which you speak 😅A company’s business decision doesn’t dictate what gamers do with rules/ universes they wish to play. Fact that this game setting is coming back confirms just how wrong GW was and how right fans were to play what they want.
I’d settle for ending price gouging AUS/NZ GW prices for an apology but will settle for a game of The Old World. Thanks for the chat will plug to my local.
Oi! Many thanks !
In 8th, you get a free wheel up to 90 degrees, it's not infinite. They should have kept that for TOW, although for the sake of keeping the pace of the game manageable, you can, instead of measuring charge distance from closest point to closest point which is usually from closest corner to closest corner, measure from the outside front corner of the charging unit to the closest corner of the unit receiving the charge. It's not 100% accurate, but it's close enough to keep the game moving.
Yes! my bad. Indeed 90 degrees. But that covers pretty much anything you can see, so it's more or less infinite and now I'm not wrong. ; )
I really like closest point to furthest corner. That's an excellent house rule / tournament rule for pace of play and simplicity.
Does measuring the wheel for charges not just mean measuring the charge from the furthest point?
I'm not like ... a scientist ... is it?
@SquareBasedOldWorld no, it's much more complicated than that 😂
@@benneem Well ok! perhaps you know this stuff. If we assume the accuracy of a measured wheel is gonna be wildly poor - how much would this method deviate from "perfect" ?
@SquareBasedOldWorld I've never made a public CZcams video before but I'm thinking about making one on the topic.
The maximum charge distance will be a distance from the closest corner that gets shorter the greater the angle required to wheel. This will produce a "spiral" like curve for the maximum charge distances that is very difficult indeed to measure precisely.
Using distance from the far corner as a shortcut would make small wheels seem longer than they should be and make long wheels seem shorter than they should be.
However I have an idea for a possible design of a template that could aide the precision quite a bit (but you would need one for each frontage, or at least different markings for relevant frontages).
Most important for fair play will always be the non-active player making measurements in the opponent's movement phase so they can warn them "oh if you stop about there you've left me a roll of a 6 to successfully charge here, oh it's a 5 there" and if the opponent has some reason to be extremely precise they can work together to compromise before it's "too late" and the movement can't be taken back.
Edit: here's what I think it might look like imgur.com/gallery/k3GTj8o
Let's see a range refresh for Fimir while we're getting old and weird. Fantasy got me into the hobby as a kid but it's gonna take a more exciting model release to tempt me back
Since we found out about the return of old kits my assumption was that new plastics in the early days would be reserved for net new units that no one has. The idea being that everyone has to buy them, not just new players and GW completionists.
So far that's exactly what we've seen with Bretonnians... And so I think the next logical thought would be a new faction or two. And they already announced Cathay years ago
I'm really excited for Robs Cathay and Kislev accents
Very late to this episode, but my only unhappy moment reading a new TOW article was seeing "wheeling." Was really hoping for the KoW style free up to 90 degree turn at any point in a move or charge.
Yeah I feel like wheeling is a needless complication compared with a free pivot. But hey... I'll cope
Could watch you two talk about anything ❤
Heart right back atcha
what about the good old 8 by 4?
I almost made this joke / point. I figure why not just fire two together for the ol' 6x8 experience
I think the 6th edition players are a loud minority. I made a big post yesterday on FB The Old World group and on Reddit and overall it was mostly positively received. Dozens of like on both platforms. But there was a plurality who hated any positivity towards TOW or told me to just play 6th edition. Those people make the hobby miserable. I don't know who plays with those people, but it won't be me. I wouldn't even mind playing Oldhammer from time to time, but the idea that is the only way to play is ridiculous.
I loved 6th edition at the time when I started in 2003, but I want something new. I hate guessing ranges and I hate closed army lists. I HATE closed army lists so much. I like the change to the charge roll (I wish I had played WAP but I was out of the hobby once The End Times happened). Let's give GW its due for bringing back The Old World and enjoy this new game for what it is. I love the care this game has received and the desire by GW to make a deep fantasy strategy game and preserve that heritage.
#squarebassed. And as Rob always points out to me: don't worry about the haters online, they're not gonna show up anyway.
I cant believe Val is a Bills fan. I didnt realize it was possible for this podcast to become even more based
Square bases make me want to shout
More stupid than trying to measure the wheel is only measuring the willy. 🤓
The rest sounds good, Column Formation and Counter Charge, if not just for Empire detachments, are pretty cool and add new interesting dynamics to the gameplay.
But if I don't premeasure the willy how will I know how much to overcompensate?
@@SquareBasedOldWorld Nothing personal, of course, my concern is for the concept itself 😅. Hope GW will sell tools to measure and to overcompensate it :)
The Metallica metaphor doesn’t really work, because whilst they don’t make decent new music, the GW fantasy rule writing alumini actually have continued to make best selling, balanced Wargames for other companies (eg: Bolt Action, Kings of War etc etc)
They’re still relevant and their rules are still a gold standard benchmark!
Why you guys poking the metallica fandom bear
I'm excited for this and I love using my printer for conversions and stuff, but please don't advocate printing entire armies. Yeah, GW is expensive, OK - we all know. But if people just print the armies of a brand new game like this, it'll fucking die again. Please encourage people to support GWs minis when we can or we will all suffer by losing game support
I don't believe in corporate charity and neither should you. Corporations are entities created to earn money and I place particular emphasis on earn. If the quality of their miniatures are not as good as alternatives, consumers should be free to buy what they choose. Rent seeking behaviour should never be encouraged.
That being said I will be buying a helluva lot of stuff and will pick and choose models based on my tastes not on fear of them taking my toys away. Old World will almost certainly be sold out on pre-order anyway - there is no concern about the viability of the game from a business standpoint. It is clear they are launching with minimal investment in new kits. Buy those if you like them, and even the old ones are fine if your cup of tea, but really the only obligation you have as a consumer is to whether you find value in their products.
Fantasy died because they did not support it, not the other way around.
I have nothing constructive to add, just commenting for the Almighty Algorithm.
And we value your sacrifice
I'm excited to see what happens, I have things I'm excited about stuff I'm less so, but I have to wonder how much use the altered formations will get on a standard 5' table. I'm thinking about how often units reform unless they are fast skirmish cav, there just isn't enough time to switch out of combat formation to marching formation and back again, if you triple move and the enemy march with 4" movement that's 20" and they are in formation to charge and you are not.
I'm not the fan of random charge distance, it can really ruin your day on a combined charge and cost you the game cause you rolled badly. However I pretty much expected it, because of 8th edition. Does mean pre-measuring and no skill or maths with guess ranges which I find pretty meh but what more can you do.
Random charges just means managing risk
To me it just puts additional encouragement into creating deathstars, as combined charges are less likely to happen to overcome them.
Its not like i didn't expect this, but my experience is it reduces tactical choices by necessity.
Lets hope disruption finally removes steadfast or armies of unbreakable slaves will remain a nightmare
in my mind everything WHFB is awesome, but after watching a battle report just now, i realize the movement phase was absolute shit - no fun at all, the wheeling, the slow pace, the arguments with people over measurements, tiny units deliberately blocking big units and nothing you can do about it ... ughhhh so tedious and frustrating
edit: thank god there's pre-measuring charges. Yes it was awesome when you got the distance right, but all others cases were extremely frustrating. For artillery it doesn't matter that much, but charges really are too important to come down to a guessing game. Also both your ideas about counter charge sound great; nullifying the impact of a charge somewhat + for units who've been standing still for a turn already. The movement phase and charging often are game deciding and (as a dwarf player ;P) i feel they may be a bit less so
After playing an event this weekend I absolutely love the movement phase. I also love the extra nuance they seem to be adding to old world
@@SquareBasedOldWorldI understand from another one of your videos that the event was with 8th edition rules, and - seeing your comment - i assume 8th has pre-measuring as well, in which case it's very exciting to hear those are liked by you, i'm hoping and praying they don't screw this up
wtf is a stormfiend?
Big rat ogre dudes covered in rattling guns from the end times. They are comically op. 3d6 st 5 armour piercing shots. Can deep strike. Ignore most negative to hit modifiers. Reroll wounds. Probably other stuff too
Constructive criticism: I want to like this new show, I really do. I waited about 11.5 minutes to hear anything about new rules. Please discuss the content first. Waiting for the discordant chit chat, future plans, and brand building jibber jabber is annoying. Save that for the end of the video if it must be included at all. The discussion of painting tips is fine, but discuss that after the content which is promised/advertised in the video’s title. If I want a pairing tutorial, I will search for that type of video when I am in the mood. I specifically clicked on this video because it claimed to be a discussion about new rules. Anything else / extra can be at the end. Thank you.
While you seem to be an outlier with regards to our style I will say that I have the best intentions of adding some chapters to vids in the future. Hopefully that will spare you our chit chat and preserve it for those who enjoy the #squarebassed way.
I hope you stuck around though. We do have both meat and potatoes to enjoy.
Came here to say this. Ffs get started.
@@spaceork6973I cannot see if you are trying to be constructive, being witty or just being rude.
Constructive.
This article single handledly killed any enthusiasm I have for the game (and I kept my high elves, ogres, skaven and beastmen). Imagine playing skaven or orc and gobs and having to changed trays every single bloody tray every single turn since you always march or charge for the vast majority of turns with melee units. You either have to have spare trays and akwardly make sure you keep the same facing and rough position OR have bloody over large and overfilled trays and start moving models around while having empty bits, making so that your opponent will have to step in on your template (while you're still shifting bloody miniatures around like they are that parking car puzzle game). A bloodletter on a 25mm is still a bloodletter akwardly stabbing the other ones. The "quick fix" is to have your reg turn sideway, which is just bloody ugly on a table and clearly how it isn't made to be played. It's such an obvious critical flaw that it boggles the mind, anyone who played any army that wasn't a monster mash/flying circus can tell you that this is just an idiotic rule. Also, premeasuring kills a big aspect of fantasy. Now you just always have to sit outside of threat ranges à la warmachine and you can always screw over an opponent who isn't using shaft or cav on that point. Way less idiotic than the formation bit, but still a downgrade in my opinion.
I read a few sentences before it was obvious you didn't read the article right.
Marching column is not marching. Marching is double move. You can still march as normal.
Don't burn those armies yet
Read the rest. 6th and 7th are famous for doing exactly what you just blamed random charges for: sitting just out of range waiting for someone to make a move with a significant advantage for cavalry.
@@SquareBasedOldWorld After re-reading yeah it seems that there's now marching column and marching in general. Since you can't charge out of it and have no rank bonus I have no idea why you would put yourself into marching column instead of just marching, maybe dwarves or wanting to get into an objective or something if they had add that. Gotta admit it's confusing to have both marching column and march in the game, but hey at least it makes it playable again so I wont complain. Columns sound like they will be a niche case overall but I'll wait for more of the game to be revealed.
And 6th and 7th din't have premeasuring. So you couldn't right of the by be 100% certain of your guesses, even tho you get used to mentally premeasure 8 inches when you play the game for a while. Like I said, I don't think it's the worst change in the world but given the importance on maneuvering that fantasy has being a rank and file game I'm not sure It's better. I don't think it's too bad, ASOIAF has it and a similar charge system and it's still very strategic, but I will kinda miss that oldhammer feeling.
Rob,i love you but you are wrong about Metallica .They are still making music better than bands twenty years younger ! Fact! Great show though 😅
Metallica fans: no trouble no trouble
is it just me, or did Val get hotter since they changed to this channel?
Temperature is only going up from here pally
Much a do about nothing!
We'll get you to drop your monocle with the next one.